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(Huffington Post)   Just as the Founders had hoped, many online firearms dealers prefer to accept payment in anonymous, untraceable bitcoins   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, firearms dealer, Carnegie Mellon  
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2161 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2013 at 3:34 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



125 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2013-04-15 02:20:14 PM  
i... i'm not sure how i feel about this. on the one hand, who cares? it doesn't seem a whole lot different than using a gift card or any other virtual currency. on the other, while i'm not for banning guns, i think that they should be traceable.
 
2013-04-15 02:28:40 PM  
Wouldn't Zimbabwean currency be safer?
 
2013-04-15 02:36:30 PM  
Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.  Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is.  I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.
 
2013-04-15 02:42:48 PM  
Back then, they had anonymous, untraceable real coins.  So what is the difference?
 
2013-04-15 02:51:21 PM  
All it takes for those "wonderful" bitcoins to become useless is the US government declaring that they're money laundering instruments and going after MtGox and the other exchanges.
 
2013-04-15 02:56:24 PM  
Even as Congress debates gun safety legislation, a flourishing new virtual currency could provide a way around new restrictions by enabling people to buy guns online almost anonymously.
Bitcoin,

And that's where I stopped reading.
 
2013-04-15 02:58:57 PM  
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-04-15 03:14:40 PM  
these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns.  i am thinking they are less than legitimate.
 
2013-04-15 03:32:44 PM  

SlothB77: these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns.  i am thinking they are less than legitimate.


Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off.  The number can still be raised.  You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.
 
2013-04-15 03:36:36 PM  
Several websites that sell firearms only accept payment in bitcoins, but they are not easy to find. Most reside on what is called the "Deep Web," or sites that can only be accessed via Tor, a special browser that shields the identities of users.

Uh...if you can find it with an easy Google search, it ain't exactly deep. Also, Tor is down right now, or at least no one in my area can access it.
 
2013-04-15 03:37:52 PM  

dittybopper: SlothB77: these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns.  i am thinking they are less than legitimate.

Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off.  The number can still be raised.  You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


But surely NO ONE was EVER killed by a gun made before 1968--

Oh. Wait.
 
2013-04-15 03:44:43 PM  
doesn't matter how you pay, the firearm you purchase HAS to go through an FFL like anything else
 
2013-04-15 03:45:22 PM  
People are doing something illegal now therfor the pressing legislation will have a loophole if we do not make it illegal to transfer firearms this way?
 
2013-04-15 03:46:05 PM  
I encourage the gun industry to make the safe, stable Bitcoin the currency of choice for their transactions.
 
2013-04-15 03:48:11 PM  
And people are surprised? Been to a gun show lately? Christ, it's turned into a sideshow where toothless crazies trade guns for meth and meth lab gear. At least in these parts. Very different from about 8 years ago. Sure, there was the occasional crazy, now it's nothing but crazy.
 
2013-04-15 03:48:27 PM  
Wouldn't the Founding Fathers also have been cool with trading slaves for guns?
 
2013-04-15 03:50:29 PM  

Farce-Side: Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.  Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is.  I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.


It is B.S.  It's just a Bitcoin hit piece using potential gun sales to whip up fear about what may happen with potential gun sales.  You can have anonymous sales of anything right now with greenbacks or gold coins.
 
2013-04-15 03:51:51 PM  
And by "many online dealers" subby means a handful of unlicensed dark-net sites.

If you buy from a licensed dealer then it doesn't matter how you pay for the gun or whether you bought it online or face-to-face; you're still going to have to fill out an ATF form 4473 and submit to the background check.
 
2013-04-15 03:52:05 PM  
Cash is also untraceable. Better do away with that before the terrorists/drug dealers/pedophiles/boogeymen catch on to that, too.

EVERYTHING needs to be trackable, traceable, entered into multiple goverment databases and pored over with a fine-toothed comb. You know, for our safety.
 
2013-04-15 03:53:53 PM  

Farce-Side: Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.   Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is. I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.


These "dealers" are starting from "Obama bad, gubmint bad", and setting up their businesses accordingly. They're not trying to be legitimate or to follow the laws.

All it means is that the USG will either make BitCoins illegal (competing currency or "encourages criminal activity" or "terrorism" or something else with the barest figleaf of legality) or something. The problem in this case isn't the sale of guns, it's the legality of the salesmens' businesses.
 
2013-04-15 03:54:32 PM  
If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."
 
2013-04-15 04:04:57 PM  

Lawyers With Nukes: Cash is also untraceable.


Does WheresGeorge.com count?
 
2013-04-15 04:05:18 PM  

dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.



Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.
 
2013-04-15 04:07:48 PM  

Lawyers With Nukes: Cash is also untraceable. Better do away with that before the terrorists/drug dealers/pedophiles/boogeymen catch on to that, too.

EVERYTHING needs to be trackable, traceable, entered into multiple goverment databases and pored over with a fine-toothed comb. You know, for our safety.


www.bike198.com

/i know you're being sarcastic
//just wanted to use this picture
///Cash was not untraceable, just hard to find when drunk
 
2013-04-15 04:08:40 PM  

rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."


What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?
 
2013-04-15 04:12:42 PM  
Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

Ref:  http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin- 2 013-4
 
2013-04-15 04:13:08 PM  

phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.


They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.
 
wee
2013-04-15 04:13:27 PM  
FTFA: <i>Several websites that sell firearms only accept payment in bitcoins, but they are not easy to find. </i>

I wasn't aware that the word "many" could paraphrase the above statement, but now I know.

I also know that subby has no clue as to how purchasing a firearm actually works.

But let's not let these pesky trivialities spoil a good troll...
 
2013-04-15 04:14:14 PM  

dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Kind of like you, huh?
 
2013-04-15 04:16:33 PM  

hackalope: Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

Ref:  http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin- 2 013-4


Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.
 
2013-04-15 04:25:02 PM  

dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Of course, because that is the way all completely healthy think.
 
2013-04-15 04:26:56 PM  

dittybopper: It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Which (depending on the specific means of "expression" they use) is a federal crime. So yes, they are criminals. Maybe not murderers, pimps or misusers of government funds, but criminals who deserve jail time nonetheless.

And the government doesn't care what guns you OWN, they care what weapons you TRANSFER. They want to make sure that that "hop" is kosher - they don't give a fart in a windstorm that you own 55 Rugers, they care that the 56th was sold to you in accordance with Federal law. You don't need to register what you have, only what you're preparing to sell. It may seem like a small difference (even a semantic one), but there's a significant legal difference.
 
2013-04-15 04:31:32 PM  

Bloody William: rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?


Damn you. I had to go back and look it up to make sure I didn't screw up.
What candy are you referring to?
 
2013-04-15 04:32:09 PM  

dittybopper: It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.



Oh, okay. As long as it's only the law-abiding paranoid nerds doing it, I won't let myself get worked up over the fact there's a loophole like this.
 
2013-04-15 04:32:35 PM  
Well, it's just like the economy: if you can't fix it all at once and completely flawlessly, it's not worth trying to fix at all.
 
2013-04-15 04:34:54 PM  

dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Which is just retarded as while there is a list (or several, I'm unclear on this point) of citizens disallowed from owning firearms, no list (at least at the Federal level) exists of registered gun owners. This is as "out there" and unrealistic as the drone debate.
 
2013-04-15 04:37:45 PM  
content6.flixster.com
/interested
//obscure?
 
2013-04-15 04:59:41 PM  

rabidarmadillo24: Bloody William: rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?

Damn you. I had to go back and look it up to make sure I didn't screw up.
What candy are you referring to?


I think he's referring to halva.  There's a corner grocery a few miles from my office that sells blocks of halva that kind of look like fudge, except they're made with sesame.  It also goes stale very quickly, so if you find a supplier, you should keep it refrigerated or eat it the same day.

Now, what exactly is hawala?
 
2013-04-15 05:05:17 PM  
lol. "Many prefer to accept"? How about no. I'm on gunbroker all the time and I've never, ever come across any dealers pushing to be paid in bitcoin.

Have dealt with many really great firearms dealers online, but on the cutting edge of digital currency these guys ain't. They tend to prefer things old school and are sticklers for paperwork and procedure.
 
2013-04-15 05:05:26 PM  

hackalope: Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

Ref:  http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin- 2 013-4


If your bitcoin transactions are traceable back to you, then you're doing it wrong.
 
2013-04-15 05:06:03 PM  
If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.
 
2013-04-15 05:20:46 PM  
For anyone who doesn't know, if you buy a gun on the internet, you have to have a local FFL receive that gun for you, and that FFL has to do all the paperwork and background checks that is normally done. Yes there are exceptions, but that's how it's done in the vast majority of cases.

When a crime is committed with a firearm, that firearm is almost always a handgun. The number one way criminals buy handguns is by buying stolen guns from the black market. The second most popular way is also through the black market from a straw buying operation.

If your going to discuss restricting the things, you should at least know the facts.
 
2013-04-15 05:24:30 PM  

dittybopper: A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Given that guns were valuable, they were typically serialized even before 1968, some muskets had serial numbers even in the 1700s.

The ones that weren't were typically cheap ones that I'd be hesitant to fire today.

Gosling: Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.


Heck, how do we know that "Executive Outcomes" isn't simply a FBI sting site?

For those that don't know, shipping firearms to somebody not an FFL is normally highly illegal.  The exemptions are an owner shipping to himself and a firearm repair company returning a firearm to the owner.  The *LEGAL* way to buy a gun online is to buy it, have it shipped to a local FFL, where for a fee he'll do the paperwork and give it to you.  That's without getting into the various felonies filing serial numbers off will get you.

As such, "Executive Outcomes" has to operate on the darknet because otherwise the BATFE would be knocking on their door right now with a search warrant.

Sadly, I see it being used as a call for more restrictions on legal gun sellers, because of the illegal sites.
 
2013-04-15 05:24:35 PM  

manimal2878: If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.


The Armory?  I thought that was where Kink.com shot its videos.
 
2013-04-15 05:25:06 PM  
As always a headline from a fark lib is a bold face lie.

But keep trying.
 
2013-04-15 05:30:02 PM  

manimal2878: If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.


Something like that (and silk road) have to operate purely on reputation of each seller. You might get scammed by someone with no reputation, but you would give them a bad review telling everyone they are a scammer. So, scamming someone in this way would work exactly once.
 
2013-04-15 05:34:30 PM  

karmaceutical: dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Of course, because that is the way all completely healthy think.


Ah yes the tired old line about how if you have nothing to hide you won't mind a little look by Uncle Sam. After all they are here to help :)

Well fark you sir. I don't have anything to hide but I'll be damned if I let someone go on a fishing expedition just because it makes you feel better.
 
2013-04-15 05:40:52 PM  
I have never seen a gun by a dealer or a site that was dedicated to selling guns not use an FFL dealer on both sides.  If they do, they're breaking the law.
 
2013-04-15 05:41:31 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: [images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 350x360]


Sad that this wasn't the very first image.  :/
 
2013-04-15 05:41:34 PM  

Lawyers With Nukes: If your bitcoin transactions are traceable back to you, then you're doing it wrong.


Sure, now that's fairly true. But the history of techniques used to trace money laundering show that, yes Virgina Bitcoin operations won't be anonymous forever. By that I mean that as new coins get harder to produce, and existing coins are identified, it will become possible to trace the flow of payment. This probably won't work backwards, and new Bitcoins will be anonymous. However the digital non-repudiation built into the system from the start makes it a lot easier to be sure you've found the Bitcoin you're trying to trace. That aspect removes some of the uncertainty and complexity of account forensics.

Bitcoin successfully removes a central bank and government from the equation, but I don't think it will remain as anonymous as you hope it to be. Basically every bill is marked, by design. To quote the original BitCoin paper:

Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.

My contention is that, over time the public keys of some percentage of the Bitcoins on the market will be attributed. As time goes on, none of the attributed Bitcoins will leave circulation. I believe that attribution will happen at a greater rate than new Bitcoins will be mined. Therefore, the un-anonymized Bitcoins will approach the entirety of Bitcoins in circulation. I might be wrong, but that's not the way I'm betting.
 
2013-04-15 05:58:26 PM  
I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet. Hell, most states don't even allow you to buy alcohol online.


pdee: As always a headline from a fark lib is a bold face lie.

But keep trying.


Please tell us in detail how the headline misrepresents TFA.
 
2013-04-15 06:01:29 PM  
Oh yeah.. there's no way ATF could set up a site like this to find out who needs a service like this.  It still has to be delivered, and delivery locations can be monitored.  Have fun in prison if you use these "services".
 
2013-04-15 06:11:02 PM  

fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.


By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.
 
2013-04-15 06:15:57 PM  

Farce-Side: Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.  Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is.  I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.


Plus, nothing bought on the internet is ever really anonymous, especially firearms. Firearms have to be (legally) sent to a licensed dealer then transferred to the buyer. There will be a paper trail somewhere.
 
2013-04-15 06:16:40 PM  

jigger: manimal2878: If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.

Something like that (and silk road) have to operate purely on reputation of each seller. You might get scammed by someone with no reputation, but you would give them a bad review telling everyone they are a scammer. So, scamming someone in this way would work exactly once.


I kind of assumed that The Armory and Silk Road were fronts created by the FBI, ATF, and DEA. They track both the dealers and sellers without making any busts. Just building up the database to see where it goes. Then when they map out the industry enough...once all parties interested get comfortable... they grab them all at the same time.
 
2013-04-15 06:19:14 PM  
Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.
 
2013-04-15 06:21:32 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.


You are confusing two very different things. Real and legal online sellers will sell legitimate weapons online, ship them to a local FFL shop, and you pick up your legal weapon there. Background checks and everything.

The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.
 
2013-04-15 06:23:38 PM  
There is no major, mainstream, online gun dealer who takes bitcoins.

None.  Zero.
 
2013-04-15 06:24:17 PM  
No reputable dealer of just about ANYTHING accepts bitcoins. These "deep web" transactions he's talking about are the web equivalent of meeting a guy in a hotel room and buying a gun without a serial number for cash.
 
2013-04-15 06:24:27 PM  

whidbey: Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.


We get it, you're terrified of guns, and you can't walk down the street without breaking into a sweat.  How many times have you been shot?  I only ask, because with your level of fear, it must have been a lot.
 
2013-04-15 06:26:32 PM  

madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.


And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?
 
2013-04-15 06:28:38 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.


Or you're getting illegally on the dark net -- in precisely the manner TFA describes.

How many idjits are going to come in here and blast off about how it's also possible to do it legally as if that's relevant to the discussion?
 
2013-04-15 06:32:34 PM  
The "Dark Net" is just the online version of the black market. People buy illegal guns all of the time through meetups and in hotel rooms and back alleys. Both would have continued operating with or without this bill.
 
2013-04-15 06:32:49 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.

And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?


The kind of people who are paranoid enough to do this (or doing a bunch of illegal shiat and hence forced to do this) know how blind drops work: you find an address that's unoccupied during local USPS drop-off times, have it delivered there and make sure there aren't cops watching before picking it up.

This is not rocket surgery, guys.
 
2013-04-15 06:33:17 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.

And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?


That was my point. My guess was that this was a massive effort to lure several illicit industries into a new market which could be traced as it moved. Yes, illegal transactions would be allowed to occur unmolested... building up the confidence of the existing black markets to use this 'invulnerable' service. Let is run for a few years and see what turns up.
 
2013-04-15 06:36:09 PM  

actualhuman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.

Or you're getting illegally on the dark net -- in precisely the manner TFA describes.

How many idjits are going to come in here and blast off about how it's also possible to do it legally as if that's relevant to the discussion?


Because a website says you can buy guns online without an FFL, doesn't mean it's true.  I'd love to see proof if you have some.  Otherwise, I'm going with the most likely scenarios.

1) It's ATF, and you'll be arrested when you retrieve your package.
2) It's an actual business, but ATF has likely ordered guns themselves, and traced their delivery back to the source, and are monitoring all trades.

Either way, you're probably going to prison soon, and for a very long time.
 
2013-04-15 06:39:27 PM  

actualhuman: The kind of people who are paranoid enough to do this (or doing a bunch of illegal shiat and hence forced to do this) know how blind drops work: you find an address that's unoccupied during local USPS drop-off times, have it delivered there and make sure there aren't cops watching before picking it up.

This is not rocket surgery, guys.


Yeah, and you can guarantee that there's not a pinhole camera on the package broadcasting to vans packed with agents 2 streets over?  Good luck with that plan, criminal mastermind.

/there's a reason criminals deal only with people they know
 
2013-04-15 06:41:28 PM  

jyoders19: No reputable dealer of just about ANYTHING accepts bitcoins.


Here's an extensive list of dealers who take bitcoin.

https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/

Get a laptop for BTC 5.

https://www.bitcoinstore.com/
 
2013-04-15 06:46:38 PM  

the_dude_abides: doesn't matter how you pay, the firearm you purchase HAS to go through an FFL like anything else


if they're okay with selling to totally anonymous users, they probably don't give a shiat about things like that, either.
 
2013-04-15 06:48:40 PM  
To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.
 
2013-04-15 06:49:03 PM  

whidbey: Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.


whidbey, whidbey, whidbey... you don't seem to understand how a firearm purchase works, but then again, you don't seem to understand any of the other things you talk about either
 
2013-04-15 07:04:08 PM  
Are they still performing a background check for any sales within the US?

Then I couldn't be arsed to give a shiat whether the payment is made by cash, credit, or barter with foals and chicken eggs.
 
2013-04-15 07:08:35 PM  

The_Sponge: To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.


What's in your wallet?!?
 
2013-04-15 07:10:04 PM  
Regardless of what the courts have said, what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand. The founders wrote that the right to keep and bear arms was to protect us from all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC. The founders thought that the whole population should be armed, and don't try the National Guard crap, that was started to foil the peoples rights.
 
2013-04-15 07:11:04 PM  
I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally.  BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES
 
2013-04-15 07:12:15 PM  

Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Which (depending on the specific means of "expression" they use) is a federal crime. So yes, they are criminals. Maybe not murderers, pimps or misusers of government funds, but criminals who deserve jail time nonetheless.

And the government doesn't care what guns you OWN, they care what weapons you TRANSFER. They want to make sure that that "hop" is kosher - they don't give a fart in a windstorm that you own 55 Rugers, they care that the 56th was sold to you in accordance with Federal law. You don't need to register what you have, only what you're preparing to sell. It may seem like a small difference (even a semantic one), but there's a significant legal difference.


Perhaps I misunderstand your post (if so, please correct me), but it is perfectly legal to own otherwise-legal (e.g. not machine guns, artillery, etc.) guns without the government knowing you own them or how you acquired them, so long as you did so legally and aren't prohibited from owning guns.

It's perfectly legal to make your own gun for personal use. You can't make it with the intent to transfer it to someone else without being a licensed manufacturer, but you can make it for your own use. In most states its legal to buy and sell guns in direct, person-to-person sales without government involvement or knowledge.

Sure, if you're engaged in the business of selling guns they require you to be licensed, perform background checks, etc., but for occasional, legal transactions? They don't really care.
 
2013-04-15 07:23:15 PM  

fusillade762: The_Sponge: To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.

What's in your wallet?!?



Ha!

/Alaska Airlines Visa.
 
2013-04-15 07:24:57 PM  
Bitcoin -- sounds like the early Paypal, before it got fat and went to Vegas. With the gold and metal markets collapsing all around, bitcoin should be secure until next Tuesday.
 
2013-04-15 07:25:35 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally.  BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES


By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.
 
2013-04-15 07:27:31 PM  
Yeah, I'm gonna guess the buyers and sellers who are using the darknet for these transactions aren't just the types who think they should be able to purchase certain prohibited firearms or accessories and don't want the government all up in their biz, and are more interested in buying firearms specifically because they can't be traced back to the purchaser/buyer when they're used to commit a crime.
 
2013-04-15 07:30:41 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.


I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.
 
2013-04-15 07:34:55 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally. BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES


No you can't.  You can buy some realoading stuff, but guns, ammo, primers and powder are not allowed to be sold.
 
2013-04-15 07:35:45 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.

I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.


That's within the same state, and is one of the few exceptions, it also has nothing to do with the article.  The topic is about buying from an anonymous dealer, and being an anonymous buyer, so why don't you address that point.
 
2013-04-15 07:36:04 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: I've bought several pistols though classified.


But not craigslist.
 
2013-04-15 07:39:05 PM  
My firearms dealers prefer unmarked non-sequential $20 bills.
 
2013-04-15 07:43:30 PM  
I'm pretty sure the BATFE requires firearms to have serial #'s
 
2013-04-15 07:44:37 PM  
img199.imageshack.us
 
2013-04-15 07:55:19 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: I've bought several pistols though classified.


If you are wanting internet sources for guns and ammo, you go to gunbroker or gunsamerica, not some place that is likely an ATF agent that is just waiting to bust the dumasses that try to circumvent the law.
 
2013-04-15 08:31:55 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.

I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.


I live in PA, where until recently if your CC was denied you could get one from Florida via mail order...

So that's crazy.  Especially considering that in PA you can own whatever you want, up to 40mm.  But I can't transfer any of my weapons to anyone except a family member without a background check via a registered dealer.

/NTTAWWT
 
2013-04-15 09:00:04 PM  
Ah yes bitcoins,the currency that is only good for buying guns,drugs,child porn,laundering money and one of the biggest exchanges is a Magic The Gathering Online site. Lol I found it hilarious when MtGox shutdown when the bitcoin price dropped like a stone.
 
2013-04-15 09:01:30 PM  
Oh also this site http://listentobuttcoin.com/ is endlessly entertaining,especially if you turn Cosby mode on.
 
2013-04-15 09:13:28 PM  
daymaresandotherdreams.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-15 09:18:18 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Kind of like you, huh?


Well, I only have two modern guns:  A Remington 700 ADL in .30'06 that I bought new, and so there is a Form 4473 hanging out there with my name on it, and the .22 LR bolt action my parents gave me back when I was a kid, so there is a Form 4473 for that one, but in my father's name.

I've purchased a bunch of other guns over the years, some from FFLs, some from individuals, but never with consideration that I needed to "hide" them or get them off paper.  In fact, If you'd like, I'll give you a list of all the guns I've owned over the years (other than the two listed above), and where I got them:

Mauser M1916 in .308 Winchester  (dealer)
Weatherby Vanguard VGL in .308 Winchester (dealer)
Colt AR-15A2 Sporter II in .223 Remington (dealer)
Norinco AKM-style semi-auto in 7.62x39mm (dealer)
Norinco SKS in 7.62x39mm (dealer)
Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge. (dealer)
M-1 Garand in .30'06 Springfield (individual)
Sporterized (read:  butchered) No. 4 SMLE in .303 British (relative)
Non-sporterized No. 4 SMLE in .303 British (dealer)
Winchester Model 70 in .30'06 Springfield (pre-1964) (relative)
Winchester Model 70 in .22 Hornet (pre-1964) (relative)
Remington 700 ADL in .308 Winchester (short action) (relative)
Remington 597 in .22 LR. (dealer)

Looking back, they were all either dealers, or I got them from relatives, with the exception of the Garand.

Of course, You don't need a Form 4473 for things like flintlocks or percussion guns, and as you well know, I'm a muzzleloadin' kind of guy.   In fact, I just got a mold and a melting pot for my lead, and I'm getting a ladle and some lead next payday so I can make my own balls.
 
2013-04-15 09:20:49 PM  

potterydove: I'm pretty sure the BATFE requires firearms to have serial #'s


If they are newer than 1968, yes.  If they aren't, then no.

For example, I know a person who owns a Remington Nylon 66 he purchased new in the 1960's.  It doesn't have a serial number because they weren't required back then.
 
2013-04-15 09:22:14 PM  

HeadLever: Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally. BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES

No you can't.  You can buy some realoading stuff, but guns, ammo, primers and powder are not allowed to be sold.


You can buy ammo, primers, and powder over the internet.  You can't, however, purchase a new gun that way.  It has to go through an FFL.
 
2013-04-15 09:31:41 PM  

dittybopper: You can buy ammo, primers, and powder over the internet.


His point is that you can through craigslist, which is not allowed per site rules.   Now if you get it posted  and someone sees it before the flaggers catch you.....
 
2013-04-15 10:06:51 PM  
This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.
 
2013-04-15 10:15:17 PM  

heavymetal: This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.


It is a giant scam which is what makes it so hilarious to watch,well besides the fact that libertarian ideas tried for real are hilarious anyways.
 
2013-04-15 10:41:36 PM  

A Terrible Human: heavymetal: This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.

It is a giant scam which is what makes it so hilarious to watch,well besides the fact that libertarian ideas tried for real are hilarious anyways.


What will make it even more hilarious is when those scammed start whining for the very government whose laws they were trying to circumvent, to use those same laws to help them get their money back; then finding out they can't.
 
2013-04-15 10:54:58 PM  
HA!

Subby has confused scammers/law enforcement stings with online firearm dealers.
 
2013-04-15 11:24:31 PM  
I enjoy using Republicans' anti-healthcare arguments against them, and ask where the word "gun" appears in the Constitution.
 
2013-04-15 11:43:41 PM  

Giltric: HA!

Subby has confused scammers/law enforcement stings with online firearm dealers.


Subby's headline accurately represents the content of TFA. So yell at HuffPo if you want someone to yell at.
 
2013-04-15 11:45:26 PM  

heavymetal: What will make it even more hilarious is when those scammed start whining for the very government whose laws they were trying to circumvent, to use those same laws to help them get their money back; then finding out they can't.


This is one of the best thing about bitcoins: Those that are scammed will,from what I've seen,continue to defend whoever scammed them. It's a con artists dream come true.
 
2013-04-16 12:07:19 AM  

A Terrible Human: heavymetal: This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.

It is a giant scam which is what makes it so hilarious to watch,well besides the fact that libertarian ideas tried for real are hilarious anyways.


Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.

I'm willing to bet you don't don a magical blue costume, and get all staby or shooty with your spouse and friends. You just behave like a decent person like the rest of us, and allow folks to hang out with you or avoid you as they see fit. So socially, you're a libertarian.

What about when you're under the covers with your significant other? Consentual and voluntary, which makes it a libertarian-style sexual relationship! Anything else, and you're...not a nice person.

But lets say you got together with a bunch of your friends and started issuing proclamations; it wouldn't magically change your situation and allow you to start acting differently. You wouldn't pretend your neighbors were bound by your decisions.

Even if they DID agree to follow you, you certainly wouldn't try and bind their children to the agreements of their parents.

None of this changes whether it's only you, or you and 10 of your friends, or you and 100,000,000 supporters.

See, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.
 
2013-04-16 12:20:32 AM  

Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.


If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.
 
2013-04-16 12:36:39 AM  

schrodinger: Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.

If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.


Sorry Schrodinger, you're confused.

The common theme amongst libertarian ideals is the non-initiation of force against peacful individuals.

Only one out of your seven examples adheres to this. Can you figure out which one? :)
 
2013-04-16 12:43:09 AM  

Lawyers With Nukes: schrodinger: Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.

If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.

Sorry Schrodinger, you're confused.

The common theme amongst libertarian ideals is the non-initiation of force against peacful individuals.

Only one out of your seven examples adheres to this. Can you figure out which one? :)


Bitcoin is a bullshiat scam backed by idiotic libertarians who hump the air where Ron Paul and Ayn Rand have farted.
 
2013-04-16 12:53:01 AM  

A Terrible Human: Lawyers With Nukes: schrodinger: Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.

If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.

Sorry Schrodinger, you're confused.

The common theme amongst libertarian ideals is the non-initiation of force against peacful individuals.

Only one out of your seven examples adheres to this. Can you figure out which one? :)

Bitcoin is a bullshiat scam backed by idiotic libertarians who hump the air where Ron Paul and Ayn Rand have farted.


TH, I deserved that since I called you stupid. I apologize. This might be Fark, but I shouldn't let it get the best of me. See you in the next thread.
 
2013-04-16 01:20:47 AM  

A Terrible Human: heavymetal: What will make it even more hilarious is when those scammed start whining for the very government whose laws they were trying to circumvent, to use those same laws to help them get their money back; then finding out they can't.

This is one of the best thing about bitcoins: Those that are scammed will,from what I've seen,continue to defend whoever scammed them. It's a con artists dream come true.


You are right; and while defending the scammers they will blame their loss on some crazy government conspiracy theory.
 
2013-04-16 01:23:21 AM  

Lawyers With Nukes: TH, I deserved that since I called you stupid. I apologize. This might be Fark, but I shouldn't let it get the best of me. See you in the next thread.


You too. :)
 
2013-04-16 01:32:11 AM  

Lawyers With Nukes: schrodinger: Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.

If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.

Sorry Schrodinger, you're confused.

The common theme amongst libertarian ideals is the non-initiation of force against peacful individuals.

Only one out of your seven examples adheres to this. Can you figure out which one? :)


All of them abide by the non-initiation of force.  For instance, according to Ron Paul, the civil rights act was terrible, the confederates were right during the civil war, and female employees are the ones to blame for sexual harassment for not simply quitting their jobs.  Tax cuts for wealthy corporations is standard libertarian policy, and watering down penicillin is buyer beware.

The only questionable one is dumping toxic waste into rivers, and that's  only if the victims can prove direct financial damages in a court of law.  Which is highly unlikely, because I have plausible deniability.
 
2013-04-16 02:26:35 AM  
Shrodinger, you're all over the map now. First off, Ron Paul is a Republican. You've only addressed six out of seven items, and a couple of the ones you did address have been changed!

Also, I don't know if you're criticizing Ron Paul, or me, or if these are your own views? Rape is not force? Fraud is okay? You can do better than this!

3/10 - Please see me after class.
 
2013-04-16 02:40:47 AM  

schrodinger: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.


Sigh, I must not be a wacko libertarian:

If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

Most libertarian idea on this list; it's certainly not mandatory and might result in you going bankrupt though.

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

Dumping toxic waste into the rivers harms those downstream, which makes it a form of violence against them, hope you like getting your finances raped in court over the compensation.  Or standardized fines from the government to pay for your actions, seeing as how court cases are expensive and take too long.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

As a libertarian, I don't care whether it's personal or company, I'm against subsidies.  I also take the radical position that companies aren't people, darn it.  A company can't commit a crime; the executives in charge can.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

Contract violation if they thought they were buying purer stuff.  Again, epic liability.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

Probably going to land you in contract violation hot waters again.  One of my ideas, that's a little less mainstream libertarian, is the idea of 'standardized contracts'.  IE you don't want to have to scrutinize the fine print and remember the details between purchasing stuff at Sears, Walmart, K-Mart, or the local small store.  As such you have 'assumed' contracts that, for example, ban demanding sex for continued employment unless there's a specific clause in the personalized employment contract with the employee's initials/signature beside it.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

People can't be owned.
 
2013-04-16 02:45:25 AM  

Firethorn: If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

People can't be owned.


You're just not libertarian enough. I own me. If I want to sell myself into slavery, that's my right.
 
2013-04-16 02:48:27 AM  

CorporatePerson: Firethorn: If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

People can't be owned.

You're just not libertarian enough. I own me. If I want to sell myself into slavery, that's my right.


You make a point, but as a matter of course I'd tend to make it difficult to do, and relatively easy to get out of.  IE declare bankruptcy, you get a judge looking through all your contractual obligations, tossing 'abusive' ones first.
 
2013-04-16 02:48:31 AM  

Lawyers With Nukes: Shrodinger, you're all over the map now. First off, Ron Paul is a Republican. You've only addressed six out of seven items, and a couple of the ones you did address have been changed!

Also, I don't know if you're criticizing Ron Paul, or me, or if these are your own views? Rape is not force? Fraud is okay? You can do better than this!

3/10 - Please see me after class.


Ron Paul was the libertarian candidate for 1988.  So yeah, he's a libertarian.

The list had six items to start with.

Please explain how threatening someone with unemployment, even for bad reasons, counts as force under libertarianism.  Since when do libertarians support labor rights?

Fraud isn't allowed, but libertarianism has no guidelines about lies by omission.  You can also include things like "If you want to sell tainted meat."
 
2013-04-16 02:57:40 AM  

schrodinger: Ron Paul was the libertarian candidate for 1988.  So yeah, he's a libertarian.


Ron Paul is complicated for me.  On the one hand he fits me better than Bush, Obama, or Kerry.  On the other, well, he's a nut.  I'd REALLY like to disclaim him, but then I run into 'no true Scotsman' fallacies.

I'll simply say that I consider myself a 'moderate' libertarian for a reason - I ID with the party not because I fit their beliefs 100%, but merely that they're closer to anybody else.  It doesn't help that my beliefs sometimes change when new information is gained.  I was a lot nastier when I was younger, for example.

Fraud isn't allowed, but libertarianism has no guidelines about lies by omission.  You can also include things like "If you want to sell tainted meat."

Which is why you SPECIFY things.  If I'm buying drugs, it should say on the bottle what's in there.  If it doesn't, I'm not buying it.  If it's lying about what's on the bottle, that's a serious contract violation.  Then you get into the 'standardized contracts', which would handle the nitty-gritty details 99% of the time, so I don't need to spend an hour examining the fine print when I buy a bottle of aspirin.  Benefits both sides just by easing contractual friction.
 
2013-04-16 03:29:56 AM  

Firethorn: Which is why you SPECIFY things.  If I'm buying drugs, it should say on the bottle what's in there.


Government can't force you to say something on the bottle. You're a free man. You don't deserve to be held at gun point just because some bureaucrat says you didn't put the right thing on your label.
 
2013-04-16 03:42:42 AM  

Firethorn: If I'm buying drugs, it should say on the bottle what's in there. If it doesn't, I'm not buying it. If it's lying about what's on the bottle, that's a serious contract violation.


You've never dealt with research chemicals have you? Yeah if you order MXE your shipment will have the chemical fact sheet with it,lol if they're not completely lying about what they're sending you,and say NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION on it. If you buy something like synthetic pot you won't know what farked up thing they've sprayed it with,unless of course you've bought the chemical yourself and made your own, but the package will say it isn't for human consumption. And honestly you won't be able to track the vendor down if they've lied or anything,the closest you'll get to shaming them is on safe or scam. Now otc meds like cough syrup are regulated by the FDA,which is what you're talking about. Curiously enough vitamins and supplements aren't regulated by the FDA.
Also I've never understood the appeal of Silk Road. I mean yeah ordering drugs,not rc's,online has an appeal to it,not having to deal with shady motherfarkers in person is one but who's to say half the dealers on there aren't sting operations by various three letter government agencies? Or just like rc's what keeps anyone on there from selling bullshiat in place of real drugs? Like selling one of the 25-whatever's as LSD or offering ketamine for sale but it's really MXE?
/Considering the commercials for recalls and by my own mom having a faulty bladder mesh it doesn't seem like the FDA does any good.
 
2013-04-16 04:34:21 AM  

A Terrible Human: You've never dealt with research chemicals have you? Yeah if you order MXE your shipment will have the chemical fact sheet with it,lol if they're not completely lying about what they're sending you,and say NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION on it. If you buy something like synthetic pot you won't know what farked up thing they've sprayed it with,unless of course you've bought the chemical yourself and made your own, but the package will say it isn't for human consumption.


Your entire post seems to have less to do with 'research chemicals' than illegal drugs, and the attempts to bypass illegal drug laws.  One of the reasons I'm with the libertarian party is that I want to legalize recreational drugs because I believe that you have a very similar situation with 'the war on drugs' as you did with prohibition.  The WoD is not only ineffective at preventing the ills of drug abuse, it exasperates them at great cost.

Make the stuff legal, make it so you CAN mark it for 'human consumption'(if slavered with warnings), and a lot of the problems would go away.  For that matter, why bother with synthetic pot if you can get the real stuff legally and therefore easily enough?

Yes, I've dealt with 'research chemicals', of course I wasn't dealing with them for the purposes of making things for consumption, but I have no reason to believe that the chemicals sold to me were anything but what was on the label - and extremely pure variants at that.  It's what you get when you buy from legal, reputable companies.

In lolbertarian land reputation of your company is everything, but even here it's important.
 
2013-04-16 05:54:57 AM  
Firethorn: Most libertarian idea on this list; it's certainly not mandatory and might result in you going bankrupt though.

Sure, 60 years after the CRA passed and it's been codified in the American way of life, you can argue that companies who deviate from the CRA would go out of business.  That does not, however, mean that the same companies would go bankrupt if the CRA never existed in the first place.

Dumping toxic waste into the rivers harms those downstream which makes it a form of violence against them, hope you like getting your finances raped in court over the compensation.

Prove it.  Show me exactly how my toxic waste results in direct financial damage for yourself.  As long as the symptoms aren't unique, I have reasonable doubt.  And very, very few symptoms are completely unique.

As a libertarian, I don't care whether it's personal or company, I'm against subsidies.

I specifically said tax subsidies.  You don't believe that corporations should get more tax breaks?  Does the mainstream libertarian party agree with that?

Contract violation if they thought they were buying purer stuff.  Again, epic liability.

Hospital failed to read the fine print allowing me to substitute a lower dosage in cases of financial distress.

Probably going to land you in contract violation hot waters again.

If employees had enough power to insert an "no sexual harassment" clause into their contract, then it's doubtful that the boss would be sexually harassing them in the first place.

People can't be owned.

And yet the 1988 libertarian candidate for president spoke in front of a confederate flag defending the confederation.
 
2013-04-16 06:41:53 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Doktor_Zhivago: BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.

I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.

I live in PA, where until recently if your CC was denied you could get one from Florida via mail order...

So that's crazy.  Especially considering that in PA you can own whatever you want, up to 40mm.  But I can't transfer any of my weapons to anyone except a family member without a background check via a registered dealer.

/NTTAWWT


So much fail pretending to be fact. Until recently, if your LTCF (not a CC) was denied, you could apply for one from Florida by sending them paperwork, a copy of your fingerprints, and doing a background check and safety course, which is more difficult than getting one in PA. This was a reasonable option for people who were denied the license for reasons like not paying parking tickets in Philly.

And you can't transfer pistols to all family members, just direct parent/child, grandparent/grandchild, and spouses. For long guns, no transfer is required, which could be both anonymous and with any fom of payment agreed upon, just like the founders would have wanted.
 
2013-04-16 08:21:25 AM  
I like your style, gun-fappers.
Keep saying things.
 
2013-04-16 09:50:10 AM  

pdee: As always a headline from a fark lib is a bold face lie.


7/10

the misspelling was a nice touch.
 
2013-04-16 12:26:02 PM  

jigger: Something like that (and silk road) have to operate purely on reputation of each seller. You might get scammed by someone with no reputation, but you would give them a bad review telling everyone they are a scammer. So, scamming someone in this way would work exactly once.


Yeah, in theory that is how ebay is supposed to work, in practice scammers keep on scamming, there are plenty of ways to game  the review system.
 
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