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(Some Guy)   Why is it that so-called 'values voters' care more about gay marriage and evolution than protecting the weak and helping the poor?   (churchandstate.org.uk) divider line 132
    More: Interesting, Christian Fundamentalists, Islamic fundamentalism, culture wars, Ken Ham, biblical literalism, interpretation of the Bible, Return of Christ, taxpayer-funded  
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2651 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2013 at 11:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-15 11:03:15 AM
Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!
 
2013-04-15 11:04:30 AM
Because Jesus said all kinds of things about hating gay people and evolution, and nothing about the weak and the poor.
 
2013-04-15 11:07:37 AM

UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!


In that order?
 
2013-04-15 11:08:54 AM
If they were good god-fearing Christians they wouldn't be poor.
 
2013-04-15 11:10:15 AM
Because it's what Jesus commanded in the Bible, duh.
 
2013-04-15 11:10:55 AM
because they aren't who they say they are. they are hateful,selfish,paranoid bedwetters.
 
2013-04-15 11:10:58 AM
Being gay and believing in Science makes you morally poor (or something), so they're just attacking the root cause.
 
2013-04-15 11:11:15 AM
This just occurred to the author.
 
2013-04-15 11:11:31 AM
Fundies are fearful people. They worry about the wrath of God and going to Hell a LOT. They think that by tolerating sin (in particular, the icky gays and the destruction of unborn babies) they are committing atrocities themselves that they'll have to answer for in the afterlife. Their fear keeps them from being able to look at the issues objectively. "Sorry Venkman, I'm terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought."


As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.
 
2013-04-15 11:12:36 AM
According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.
 
2013-04-15 11:13:04 AM

Cletus C.: This just occurred to the author.


Still waiting for anything of intelligent thought to occur to values voters.
 
2013-04-15 11:13:30 AM
Because value voter is not the same thing as what would Jesus do?

A value voter is the result of the Southern Strategy employed by conservatives for the past 30 some years.

The Southern Strategy has been to send a wedge to separate people who would otherwise vote similarly.

Religion and race has been the favored wedge issue to separate folks in the south, for GOP voting purposes.

Though it does seem odd to denounce evolution, gays, and the poor as being lazy in one breath.
 
2013-04-15 11:13:40 AM

coeyagi: Being gay and believing in Science makes you morally poor (or something), so they're just attacking the root cause.


Gay science?
 
2013-04-15 11:13:53 AM
It probably has something to do with the fact that their opposing party isn't actively trying to make people poor, so there's largely no disagreement on that front.
 
2013-04-15 11:14:29 AM
Because liberals care about them and it's the job of "values voters" to treat politics like a football game.
 
2013-04-15 11:14:33 AM
Prosperity gospel dictates otherwise.
 
2013-04-15 11:14:49 AM

Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.


I wish there was as kernel of truth in that so the Kardashians could be properly dealt with.
 
2013-04-15 11:15:17 AM
Concern trolling for the poor. Always a winning move.
 
2013-04-15 11:16:02 AM
Kind of like how every Congolese death squad calls itself something like The People's Liberation Freedom Army.
 
2013-04-15 11:16:44 AM
Because they have sh*t values.
 
2013-04-15 11:16:55 AM
t.qkme.me
 
2013-04-15 11:16:55 AM
If people that have a religion are taking over the country, why aren't they represented more in the mainstream media, or Hollywood? I've heard lately there's some money to made in those two industries, so yeah?

Sorry to interrupt your "Five Minutes of Hate."

/I'm an atheist
 
2013-04-15 11:17:18 AM

Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.


ww1.prweb.com
 
2013-04-15 11:18:38 AM

Lawyers With Nukes: If people that have a religion are taking over the country, why aren't they represented more in the mainstream media, or Hollywood? I've heard lately there's some money to made in those two industries, so yeah?

Sorry to interrupt your "Five Minutes of Hate."

/I'm an atheist


1/10

study harder
 
2013-04-15 11:18:46 AM

coeyagi: Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.

I wish there was as kernel of truth in that so the Kardashians could be properly dealt with.


Or Paris Hilton. Or Lindsay Lohan. Or Amanda Bynes.
 
2013-04-15 11:19:35 AM

Lawyers With Nukes: If people that have a religion are taking over the country, why aren't they represented more in the mainstream media, or Hollywood? I've heard lately there's some money to made in those two industries, so yeah?

Sorry to interrupt your "Five Minutes of Hate."

/I'm an atheist


3/10
Needs more passing references to foxnews or Teboe.
 
2013-04-15 11:20:48 AM
THANKS J.C.!
 
2013-04-15 11:21:10 AM
Because "values voters" only value their own self. They really should be called "fark you, I got mine" voters.
 
2013-04-15 11:22:16 AM
Because helping the weak and poor don't pay. Yet somehow we're supposed to let the free market take care of them.
 
2013-04-15 11:22:28 AM

Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.


"Prosperity Gospel" is about the most evil, malicious thing ever imagined. At its root, it says that starving babies and others incapable of caring for themselves are sinners unworthy of life. And it presents this as an expression of "God's love". Is there any greater perversion out there?

/also, that stupefying "The Secret" is just as bad. It is the same thing wrapped in a "no-Jesus" cloak.
 
2013-04-15 11:23:19 AM
reminds me of my parents who say they vote only on "family issues" but to them that starts and ends with "abortion."
 
2013-04-15 11:23:47 AM
Why is it that Jesus preached a message of changing your life, renouncing your possessions, and helping the orphans and widows and sick, and Christianity turned into a centuries-long argument about things like whether you need a guy in a robe to lift a piece of bread and wine into the air before you eat it, to get into Heavenworld?  And burned and stoned each other to death by the thousands over such arguments?  And now the message has morphed for many "Christians" into "God wants you to get rich using my simple three-step plan"?

I don't know.  People are strange.  Values turn into dogmas, dogmas turn into policies, and bureaucrats use policies to get what they want.
 
2013-04-15 11:27:03 AM
American christians go to church for business connections. WTF is a bible?
 
2013-04-15 11:27:08 AM
cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-15 11:27:42 AM
Answer:

In America, being "conservative" is about being in a club. It's about belonging in a group and being accepted into the group and embracing the platform that group stands on even if it doesn't make logical sense in order to fill the need to belong. Because for many Americans live such shallow and unfulfilled lives that they must voluntarily segregate themselves into tribes in order to wage a tribal war on each other in order to fill the gap missing in their personality and deepen their lives. Even though there is no test, or right of passage to become a member of this special club, it is fear of ridicule and fear of being ostracized by those they seek to be their peers that keep them in line. By vilifying and labeling anything not "conservative" as "liberal" this club has created for itself a cult of followers out of fear of becoming branded a member of the other tribe. There is no middle ground, there are no other options, to them there are only "conservatives" and "liberals" and if you aren't part of the "conservative" club, you are a filthy "liberal". But you better embrace and stand behind everything "conservative" or else you are a "liberal", period.

It's a members only club, and membership rules are strict...
 
2013-04-15 11:28:12 AM

Kibbler: Why is it that Jesus preached a message of changing your life, renouncing your possessions, and helping the orphans and widows and sick, and Christianity turned into a centuries-long argument about things like whether you need a guy in a robe to lift a piece of bread and wine into the air before you eat it, to get into Heavenworld?  And burned and stoned each other to death by the thousands over such arguments?  And now the message has morphed for many "Christians" into "God wants you to get rich using my simple three-step plan"?

I don't know.  People are strange.  Values turn into dogmas, dogmas turn into policies, and bureaucrats use policies to get what they want.


Ever watch "The Life of Brian?"
 
2013-04-15 11:28:27 AM

Via Infinito: As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.


Jesus said "the poor will always be with you."

Think about what that means.

First of all, there will always be good-for-nothing moochers stealing from productive citizens.  Jesus knew this nearly 2000 years before Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Second, humans will never be able to eliminate poverty, because Jesus said so.  To try to eliminate poverty is not just futile, it is an act of human pride and defiance against God.  Poverty is a symptom of the deadly sin of sloth.  Welfare is also a sin, the result of the deadly sin of sloth, which causeth poverty, and envy, which causeth the poor to covet what their betters have earned.  Giving money to the poor only encourages them to mooch more.  To eliminate poverty, you need to eliminate the sin that causes poverty, and only Jesus can do that.

In Heaven, there is no Medicare, no Medicaid, no Social Security, no welfare, no food stamps, no Section 8 Housing, and no public transportation.  There is no affirmative action (unneeded, because there are no minorities in Heaven), no unions, and no unemployment insurance.  There are no job-killing OSHA, EPA, FDA, or Department of Labor to burden the job creators.  God only asks for a flat tax of 10 percent, as opposed to the 50% tax rate demanded by 0bama.  Why does 0bama need five times what God asks for?  Because he thinks he's five times better than God?
 
2013-04-15 11:28:32 AM

djseanmac: Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.

"Prosperity Gospel" is about the most evil, malicious thing ever imagined. At its root, it says that starving babies and others incapable of caring for themselves are sinners unworthy of life. And it presents this as an expression of "God's love". Is there any greater perversion out there?

/also, that stupefying "The Secret" is just as bad. It is the same thing wrapped in a "no-Jesus" cloak.


Oh I can imagine much much more perverse things.  Try harder.
 
2013-04-15 11:28:33 AM
Because "values" means "I have no logical basis for my beliefs, but gays and blacks are icky."
 
2013-04-15 11:28:49 AM
Values Voters:
api.ning.com

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf
 
2013-04-15 11:29:27 AM
These "christians" believe in a  twisted mish-mash of dominionist and prosperity theology. They believe that God literally rewards the pious with obscene amounts of material wealth while punishing the sinners with poverty. The more money you have, the more God loves you. The more poor you are, the more you're headed straight to Hell.

In their view, people are poor because they are not deemed worthy of God's love, while the Koch Brothers are adopted by Jehovah himself.


This also explains why the more wealthy are more likely to be religious. They want to wrap themselves up in a belief system that reinforces their status quo, where as those who struggle to survive are more likely to acknowledge that there is no god that cares about them.
 
2013-04-15 11:29:54 AM

djseanmac: Serious Black: According to the values of the Prosperity Gospel, people get what they deserve. The poor are wretched sinners who have turned their backs from God, so God is righteously smiting them with famine and powerlessness.

"Prosperity Gospel" is about the most evil, malicious thing ever imagined. At its root, it says that starving babies and others incapable of caring for themselves are sinners unworthy of life. And it presents this as an expression of "God's love". Is there any greater perversion out there?

/also, that stupefying "The Secret" is just as bad. It is the same thing wrapped in a "no-Jesus" cloak.


Letting babies die young means God gets them that much sooner. God gets aborted fetuses before they're even born! They should be supportive of abortion.
 
2013-04-15 11:29:56 AM

Cythraul: Because Jesus said all kinds of things about hating gay people and evolution, and nothing about the weak and the poor.


Done in two.
 
2013-04-15 11:30:10 AM

UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!


Praise the word of St. Hanover. Blessed by thy fists.
 
2013-04-15 11:32:25 AM

NostroZ: Because value voter is not the same thing as what would Jesus do?

A value voter is the result of the Southern Strategy employed by conservatives for the past 30 some years.

The Southern Strategy has been to send a wedge to separate people who would otherwise vote similarly.

Religion and race has been the favored wedge issue to separate folks in the south, for GOP voting purposes.

Though it does seem odd to denounce evolution, gays, and the poor as being lazy in one breath.


The Southern Strategy really only had one target, racial minorities. With racism becoming unpopular the GOP has been forced to create multiple targets to keep their base angry, afraid, and isolated from the rest of the country. That's why they now call out gays, scientists, and the poor (although that is often coded race talk). They have even needed to create enemies like Secularists and Communists even though the people who are actually part of those groups hold no political power.
 
2013-04-15 11:32:34 AM
Hey, they got bootstraps like everyone else.  Assuming they haven't pawned them for money to buy food.
 
2013-04-15 11:32:40 AM

Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf


$5 says that the bible he is handing her is an english language bible.
 
2013-04-15 11:34:20 AM
Because they are assholes who only care about themselves and use Jesus to try and convince everyone else that they aren't self-centered dickbags.
 
2013-04-15 11:34:35 AM

Saiga410: Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf

$5 says that the bible he is handing her is an english language bible.


The bible cannot convey it's true meaning unless you read it in it's original english.
 
2013-04-15 11:34:47 AM

Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf


Ah yes...the self-righteous shiat-eating grin.  It's pretty common where I live.
 
2013-04-15 11:36:09 AM

TV's Vinnie: This also explains why the more wealthy are more likely to be religious. They want to wrap themselves up in a belief system that reinforces their status quo, where as those who struggle to survive are more likely to acknowledge that there is no god that cares about them.


It's the exact opposite of that. The better off and more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious.
 
2013-04-15 11:36:32 AM

Parthenogenetic: Via Infinito: As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.

Jesus said "the poor will always be with you."

Think about what that means.

First of all, there will always be good-for-nothing moochers stealing from productive citizens.  Jesus knew this nearly 2000 years before Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Second, humans will never be able to eliminate poverty, because Jesus said so.  To try to eliminate poverty is not just futile, it is an act of human pride and defiance against God.  Poverty is a symptom of the deadly sin of sloth.  Welfare is also a sin, the result of the deadly sin of sloth, which causeth poverty, and envy, which causeth the poor to covet what their betters have earned.  Giving money to the poor only encourages them to mooch more.  To eliminate poverty, you need to eliminate the sin that causes poverty, and only Jesus can do that.

In Heaven, there is no Medicare, no Medicaid, no Social Security, no welfare, no food stamps, no Section 8 Housing, and no public transportation.  There is no affirmative action (unneeded, because there are no minorities in Heaven), no unions, and no unemployment insurance.  There are no job-killing OSHA, EPA, FDA, or Department of Labor to burden the job creators.  God only asks for a flat tax of 10 percent, as opposed to the 50% tax rate demanded by 0bama.  Why does 0bama need five times what God asks for?  Because he thinks he's five times better than God?


2/10
Way over the top. Subtlety is the best way to troll.
 
2013-04-15 11:37:18 AM

UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!


Don't worry, I've got an angle.
 
2013-04-15 11:38:01 AM
Because they spend less time reading the Bible than they do thumping it?

I_Am_Weasel: In that order?


Traditionally, yes.
 
2013-04-15 11:39:20 AM
Short answer: because right-wing ideology REQUIRES an "us"-vs-"them" narrative.

Sad as it is, "let's all help the less fortunate like Jesus wanted" doesn't get people to the polls. "[Insert hated group here] are destroying the country and ruining humanity forever!!! Now forward this email to everyone you know and remember not to remove any of the 'FW:'s in the subject line!" does.

The American left may have very real problems, but they haven't painted themselves into a cultural and ideological corner like the American right has. They have quite literally staked out a very combative viewpoint where, on many major issues of the day (the environment, science and education, women's and minorities' rights, etc.), it's pretty much them against the entire rest of the civilized world. Which, of course, they just integrate into their concocted fantasies of perpetual victimhood even though they represent one of the most politically powerful and entitled demographics on Earth.

A combative, uncharitable attitude and outlook is the inevitable result.  And this is something I hear a more and more from several generations of people in my own family and in those of friends and acquaintances.  I hear it from those in their teens, those in their 20's and 30's, and even from folks in their 40's and 50's: "When did [usually older, very conservative family member] get so angry about everything? All they do is glue themselves to cable news and grumble and rant about politics now. I miss being able to talk with them!"

I have seriously lost count of how may times I've heard some variation of that, now.  I can't imagine that the (very typically southern and midwestern) families I have experience with are somehow outliers in this.  And it's really sad...
 
2013-04-15 11:40:32 AM

Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf


A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.
 
2013-04-15 11:40:43 AM
Prosperity Gospel is the Anti-Christ
anyone who preaches it is a false prophet.
 
2013-04-15 11:41:08 AM
FTFAThe infection is that of anti-intellectualism, a steadfast refusal to acknowledge that one's worldview is mutable, a worldview in which facts are only facts if they fit that worldview, and that anyone who disagrees with a Christian fundamentalist worldview is an "enemy" of God.

This is why I can't support the GOP......these people scare me.
 
2013-04-15 11:41:28 AM
I have no values, and, according to my wife, have no value.
 
2013-04-15 11:43:11 AM
c0014449.r32.cf1.rackcdn.com
 
2013-04-15 11:43:33 AM

I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf

A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.


Are you under the impression that only Christian charities support those in need in Haiti?
 
2013-04-15 11:44:18 AM
Because "values voters" are assholes.

A hearty THIS!! to everyone who called out prosperity theology.  That's a big part of the reason "values voters" are assholes.
 
2013-04-15 11:44:24 AM

I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?


Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.
 
2013-04-15 11:46:12 AM
Because they've had more success at keeping down the gays and fighting evolution?
Their strategies for fighting poverty and protecting the weak absolutely suck, and they know it.

Doing good deeds and helping others has given them almost no tangible results to validate their beliefs to others.
But good bogeymen can be just as intangible and generally tend to be more effective.

Tell a person to do X and good things will come to them and others and they'll want to test that theory. And if it doesn't work out for them, you're shown to be full of shiat.
Tell a person that Y is going to harm them, and they'll be more inclined to follow your advice without testing.

Pretty soon you're protecting them from lots of scary threats and fighting the good fight for them. And surely they'd be thankful enough to give you some monetary support...
 
2013-04-15 11:47:05 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf

A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.

Are you under the impression that only Christian charities support those in need in Haiti?


I'm under the impression that Christian charities get grief for it when other's don't at the same rate.
 
2013-04-15 11:48:11 AM
Because they aren't really Christian.
 
2013-04-15 11:48:22 AM

Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.


So, a one time donation gives you the ability to critique what some churches are doing quarterly.  A once and forget it donation.  Good for you.  They probably don't need any more help on an ongoing basis.

I salute you and your ability to complain about those who are willing to continue helping.
 
2013-04-15 11:49:29 AM

I_C_Weener: Philip Francis Queeg: I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf

A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.

Are you under the impression that only Christian charities support those in need in Haiti?

I'm under the impression that Christian charities get grief for it when other's don't at the same rate.


They get grief for their proselytizing. The other charities don't get grief for that because they don't farking do it.
 
2013-04-15 11:49:35 AM

Lionel Mandrake: prosperity theology


Prosperity theology smells like bullshiat.
 
2013-04-15 11:49:50 AM

I_C_Weener: Philip Francis Queeg: I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: Values Voters:
[api.ning.com image 500x443]

/that woman's stupid smile
//'we're doing the lord's work, ya'll!"
///diaf

A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.

Are you under the impression that only Christian charities support those in need in Haiti?

I'm under the impression that Christian charities get grief for it when other's don't at the same rate.


Ah, yes, the "religious people are more charitable" argument.
 
2013-04-15 11:51:04 AM
Christian fundamentalists have never been in charge, so there must be some other reason our country is going into the Dark Ages. But it's fun to ridicule them, so carry on.
 
2013-04-15 11:52:21 AM

I_C_Weener: that Christian charities get grief for it


They are so persecuted. The poor christian charities.
 
2013-04-15 11:53:16 AM

Via Infinito: Parthenogenetic: Via Infinito: As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.

Jesus said "the poor will always be with you."

Think about what that means.

First of all, there will always be good-for-nothing moochers stealing from productive citizens.  Jesus knew this nearly 2000 years before Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Second, humans will never be able to eliminate poverty, because Jesus said so.  To try to eliminate poverty is not just futile, it is an act of human pride and defiance against God.  Poverty is a symptom of the deadly sin of sloth.  Welfare is also a sin, the result of the deadly sin of sloth, which causeth poverty, and envy, which causeth the poor to covet what their betters have earned.  Giving money to the poor only encourages them to mooch more.  To eliminate poverty, you need to eliminate the sin that causes poverty, and only Jesus can do that.

In Heaven, there is no Medicare, no Medicaid, no Social Security, no welfare, no food stamps, no Section 8 Housing, and no public transportation.  There is no affirmative action (unneeded, because there are no minorities in Heaven), no unions, and no unemployment insurance.  There are no job-killing OSHA, EPA, FDA, or Department of Labor to burden the job creators.  God only asks for a flat tax of 10 percent, as opposed to the 50% tax rate demanded by 0bama.  Why does 0bama need five times what God asks for?  Because he thinks he's five times better than God?

2/10
Way over the top. Subtlety is the best way to troll.


I think that wasn't trolling so much as satire.
 
2013-04-15 11:53:28 AM

oryx: Christian fundamentalists have never been in charge, so there must be some other reason our country is going into the Dark Ages. But it's fun to ridicule them, so carry on.


It's the gays, right?
 
2013-04-15 11:54:07 AM
I_C_Weener:

A local church rebuilt a kids' home and school in Haiti, and funded it each year since the big earthquake.  What have you done for Haiti?  There is a mission trip there twice a year.  One of the members paid for a doctor to come to his office in the US then gave him eye surgery for free so that this doctor could continue to practice medicine for his community.  They might even have thrown in a bible or two.

Sure, its fun saying that Christian missionaries are there to exploit, but you might need to get your own hands a bit dirty before you can feel too superior.


What does any of that have to do with TFA?
 
2013-04-15 11:54:14 AM

oryx: Christian fundamentalists have never been in charge, so there must be some other reason our country is going into the Dark Ages. But it's fun to ridicule them, so carry on.


At the state level they have a lot of control. Thankfully their national control is limited to the likes of Michele Bachmann and Steve King.
 
2013-04-15 11:54:14 AM

I_C_Weener: I'm under the impression that Christian charities get grief for it when other's don't at the same rate.


Funny, I have never heard anyone complain about Christian charities donating food or water, or rebuilding homes, or donating medical help to those in need.

I have, however, heard people complaining about Christian charities requiring people to pray before receiving this help, and I've heard complaining about Christian "charities" handing out Bibles instead of food and water.  Almost as if people aren't giving Christinan charities grief about their actual charitable actions, but the pompous and self-righteous bullshiat that often comes along with it.
 
2013-04-15 11:54:51 AM

Kibbler: I don't know.  People are strange.  Values turn into dogmas, dogmas turn into policies, and bureaucrats use policies to get what they want.



Women seem wicked. Streets are uneven.
 
2013-04-15 11:54:54 AM
"He knew about concerned citizens. Wherever they were, they all spoke the same private language, where 'traditional values' meant 'hang someone'." -- Terry Pratchett
 
2013-04-15 11:55:19 AM

oryx: Christian fundamentalists have never been in charge, so there must be some other reason our country is going into the Dark Ages. But it's fun to ridicule them, so carry on.


they aren't in charge. but they are useful idiots to those who are in charge. namely the richest corporations.
 
2013-04-15 11:57:44 AM

Shrugging Atlas: Hey, they got bootstraps like everyone else.  Assuming they haven't pawned them for money to buy food drugs.


Pay attention.
 
2013-04-15 11:59:38 AM

NeverDrunk23: coeyagi: Being gay and believing in Science makes you morally poor (or something), so they're just attacking the root cause.

Gay science?


Plastic tubes and pots and pans
Bits and pieces and the
Magic from the hand
We're makin' gay science
Things I've never seen before
Behind bolted doors
Talent and imagination
Gay science
Not what teacher said to do
Makin' dreams come true
Living tissue, warm flesh
Gay science
 
2013-04-15 12:02:07 PM

I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.

So, a one time donation gives you the ability to critique what some churches are doing quarterly.  A once and forget it donation.  Good for you.  They probably don't need any more help on an ongoing basis.

I salute you and your ability to complain about those who are willing to continue helping.


biatch, troll harder. I do what I can and don't expect anything in return.
 
2013-04-15 12:03:33 PM

dennysgod: [c0014449.r32.cf1.rackcdn.com image 600x450]


That's a good Goldwater quote, didn't realize he created a Beast he could himself not control with the Southern Strategy.

The worse thing about getting religion into politics is the presumption that you're group is good and your opponents are evil.
Since evil cannot be compromised with, any concession to evil is a loss... that's how you have the deadlock in Congress today.
 
2013-04-15 12:04:44 PM

NeverDrunk23: coeyagi: Being gay and believing in Science makes you morally poor (or something), so they're just attacking the root cause.

Gay science?


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

"Fröhliche Wissenschaft," if you please.
 
2013-04-15 12:06:31 PM
I'd say it was a bad day when Dominionism took hold of American Protestantism, but that would ignore the centuries of history that had churches of all stripes promoting their own political-economic vision.

So it's still bad in the here and now, but it has also been that bad (and worse) throughout the Church's history.

// can I claim indulgence-purchases as a tax-writeoff?
 
2013-04-15 12:06:31 PM
"Value voters" are poorly named.
 
2013-04-15 12:12:40 PM

Surool: "Value voters" are poorly named.


Au contraire.

They provide a TON of value for Corporate America - they work the lowest-end jobs (which likely provide either some of the best ROI*, or the raw materials used to build other shiat, like corn or auto parts) and are the voting base.

*because you don't realize how much the janitorial/custodial staff does until they stop doing it for a week. I don't mean "cash" so much as intangibles.
 
2013-04-15 12:12:45 PM

I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.

So, a one time donation gives you the ability to critique what some churches are doing quarterly.  A once and forget it donation.  Good for you.  They probably don't need any more help on an ongoing basis.

I salute you and your ability to complain about those who are willing to continue helping.


there are some missionaries that do good work. most of them I've have a displeasure to know are little more than moochers who live on the charity of others ,some quite well, and do very little to justify their income. one I visited in Guatemala had a huge ranch, a motorhome and everything paid for by these churches who supported him. He wasn't concerned with feeding the poor or the physical health of those in his area. He was only concerned with getting them "saved" so he could count them in his little newsletter he'd send back to his patrons. Oh sure they'd have a meal or two and take pics. they'd give the kids books that were provided by the churches to give them. and take pics of those. but the majority of their time was sipping iced tea and watching satellite tv on their ranch. they pulled in over 20k a month in contributions. and probably paid out 5k or so for their employees who took care of the ranch. They had a racket going similar to that of Don Imus.
 
2013-04-15 12:15:14 PM

FeedTheCollapse: Via Infinito: Parthenogenetic: Via Infinito: As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.

Jesus said "the poor will always be with you."

Think about what that means.

First of all, there will always be good-for-nothing moochers stealing from productive citizens.  Jesus knew this nearly 2000 years before Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Second, humans will never be able to eliminate poverty, because Jesus said so.  To try to eliminate poverty is not just futile, it is an act of human pride and defiance against God.  Poverty is a symptom of the deadly sin of sloth.  Welfare is also a sin, the result of the deadly sin of sloth, which causeth poverty, and envy, which causeth the poor to covet what their betters have earned.  Giving money to the poor only encourages them to mooch more.  To eliminate poverty, you need to eliminate the sin that causes poverty, and only Jesus can do that.

In Heaven, there is no Medicare, no Medicaid, no Social Security, no welfare, no food stamps, no Section 8 Housing, and no public transportation.  There is no affirmative action (unneeded, because there are no minorities in Heaven), no unions, and no unemployment insurance.  There are no job-killing OSHA, EPA, FDA, or Department of Labor to burden the job creators.  God only asks for a flat tax of 10 percent, as opposed to the 50% tax rate demanded by 0bama.  Why does 0bama need five times what God asks for?  Because he thinks he's five times better than God?

2/10
Way over the top. Subtlety is the best way to troll.

I think that wasn't trolling so much as satire.


Satire might be the wrong word, because it's factual.

My family is fundamentalist Baptist.  I am not.  That is the kind of crap you will hear in those circles.  ("God only gets 10%.  Why does the government think they deserve more?")
 
2013-04-15 12:15:35 PM
This is a behavioral opposition between compassionate values and disaster values.

In relatively good times a society functions best when everybody helps each other and life is better than a zero sum game.

In very bad times (famines, attacks by Attila the Hun, etc.) it is every family for itself and helping outsiders can hurt a family to the extent that its genes won't be passed on.

Fundamentalists tend to favor disaster values though they are supposed to be somewhat compassionate towards members of their in-group. However if someone in their group really needs help they may decided that he is flawed (e.g. lazy, God has cursed him, he violated group rules) and rather than being helped gets punished, maybe even kicked out of the group or killed.

As a different example, traditional Chinese are very family centered (may because of famines) and it was almost inconceivable to help an outsider that they didn't have any business ties with (such as a lost child). If such an outsider was helped it created obligations as if the outsider was adopted into the family.
 
2013-04-15 12:23:25 PM

Parthenogenetic: My family is fundamentalist Baptist.  I am not.  That is the kind of crap you will hear in those circles.  ("God only gets 10%.  Why does the government think they deserve more?")


I'm in the same boat. I feel for you. Do you go all Poe's Law on them at family reunions or just sit quietly hoping they won't notice that you're not joining in on the gay/Obama/liberal bashing?
 
2013-04-15 12:23:31 PM

Parthenogenetic: FeedTheCollapse: Via Infinito: Parthenogenetic: Via Infinito:

Satire might be the wrong word, because it's factual.

My family is fundamentalist Baptist.  I am not.  That is the kind of crap you will hear in those circles.  ("God only gets  10%. Why does the government they they deserve more?")


You are 100% correct, I too was raised in a fundamentalist Southern Baptist family and I heard all those ridiculous statements on a regular basis. Its easy to write it off as satire or even trolling, but be aware that there ARE people out there that honestly believe these things are true. The pastor of the church I attended growing up used to say that 10% remark on a regular basis from behind the pulpit. Christians are REALLY into the whole "belief in a just world" fallacy because it allows them to justify living selfish, judgmental lives and still feel good about the rewards they are sure to receive in heaven. Because good things only happen to good people and bad things happen because you're a bad person who has angered God.
 
2013-04-15 12:25:33 PM
If there was ever a moment in which I agreed wholeheartedly with the Insane Clown Posse, it's this moment.

HairBolus: This is a behavioral opposition between compassionate values and disaster values.


And, this. There's a reason we're seeing a rise in the "doomsday prepper"/"survivalist" mentality - it ties into the "disaster values" discussion.
 
2013-04-15 12:29:18 PM

Teufelaffe: UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!

Don't worry, I've got an angle.


Calling Hannover Fist!
 
2013-04-15 12:30:58 PM
That hasn't been my observation out here in the real world.

I do a dozen or so hours a month at 2 different food banks, nary a lefty in the lot of volunteers, I am probably the only heathen around. I have met some real decent people, are they bible thumpers?....absolutely, but at least they walk the walk.
 
2013-04-15 12:31:29 PM

I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.

So, a one time donation gives you the ability to critique what some churches are doing quarterly.  A once and forget it donation.  Good for you.  They probably don't need any more help on an ongoing basis.

I salute you and your ability to complain about those who are willing to continue helping.


A single can of food is worth more than a thousand Bibles.
 
2013-04-15 12:33:55 PM

Tailgunner Joe: That hasn't been my observation out here in the real world.


Personal anecdotes are the best kind of evidence.
 
2013-04-15 12:41:44 PM

Via Infinito: Fundies are fearful people. They worry about the wrath of God and going to Hell a LOT. They think that by tolerating sin (in particular, the icky gays and the destruction of unborn babies) they are committing atrocities themselves that they'll have to answer for in the afterlife. Their fear keeps them from being able to look at the issues objectively. "Sorry Venkman, I'm terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought."


As far as not helping the weak and poor, many of them believe in the prosperity doctrine. If you're poor, God wants it that way because you suck. If I have money, it's because God wants me to have it and I'm not about to give it to your unemployed welfare-abusing ass.


Yup, pretty much.

It's a bit of genious work on the part of their religious leaders.  Who doesn't want to hear that they are in fact not being greedy, selfish assholes and instead are being rewarded by Jesus for being good Christians?

I don't have to feel bad about driving an Escalade and sticking a Jesus fish on the back while there are kids out there starving!
 
2013-04-15 12:50:51 PM

Tailgunner Joe: I do a dozen or so hours a month at 2 different food banks, nary a lefty in the lot of volunteers, I am probably the only heathen around. I have met some real decent people, are they bible thumpers?....absolutely, but at least they walk the walk.


It all depends on which charity you're working at. Who sponsors this food bank?  Is it a religious organization?  Even if it's not, food banks are a big staple with church outreach organizations, so the fact that you see a lot of churchgoing people at them isn't surprising.

You take other high-profile charities like Doctors Without Borders, the groups organizations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation work with, etc. that don't have historically close ties with church organizations in the US and you see a very different background in volunteers, or at least more diversity in backgrounds.

But this whole fight of who's more "generous" then whom I think is belittling and counterproductive. Plus, there's no real way to measure it.  Suffice to say that there are good-hearted people of just about any persuasion, and they all have their priorities and their pet projects, which is a good thing.  We don't want all charitable giving focused on a single area or even a single set of areas.

And then there's the point that in much of the world, Christian charities are seen as leftist in nature within their societies!  For example, the Catholic church in South America has a lot of experience with this; in agitating for rights for the poor, for workers, and on behalf of various underclasses. They're heavily involved in labor movements, suffrage movements, etc. You just don't see church organizations in the US doing that sort of thing, for a variety of reasons. And a lot of it has to do with how politicized many of the national religious organizations in the US have become and both their historical and current political alliances with the devoutly capitalist American right wing.

I think the greater point within the context of this particular thread is the worrying trend of Christian congregations in this country becoming less and less focused on caring for the weak and the needy and more and more focused on wedge-issue politics and becoming obsessed with evangelizing not the teachings of Christ, but the teachings of the Chicago school and fundamentalist capitalist ideology. And then there's some of the megachurches which just do away with pretense and operate basically as for-profit enterprises, complete with franchises, HR departments, and lawyers up the wazoo.
 
2013-04-15 12:52:47 PM

desertgeek: Because "values voters" only value their own self. They really should be called "fark you, I got mine" voters.


They think that they're worshiping God, but God isn't real so they're just worshipping themselves.
 
2013-04-15 01:02:12 PM

CorporatePerson: desertgeek: Because "values voters" only value their own self. They really should be called "fark you, I got mine" voters.

They think that they're worshiping God, but God isn't real so they're just worshipping themselves.


i47.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-15 01:02:30 PM
Helping the poor requires expending $ or effort. What fun is that when sanctimonious moralizing is easy and free?
 
2013-04-15 01:14:45 PM

cloakandbadger: Helping the poor requires expending $ or effort. What fun is that when sanctimonious moralizing is easy and free?


Hey, those megachurches don't build themselves!
 
2013-04-15 01:21:31 PM

Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.


This, this, 10000 times this.

It isn't charity work when missionaries go to these places, they aren't doing out of true compassion.  It's marketing.  They're doing it to advance the interests of their religion and increase it's power over others.
 
2013-04-15 01:24:39 PM

Tailgunner Joe: That hasn't been my observation out here in the real world.

I do a dozen or so hours a month at 2 different food banks, nary a lefty in the lot of volunteers, I am probably the only heathen around. I have met some real decent people, are they bible thumpers?....absolutely, but at least they walk the walk.


Absolute opposite here.  I volunteer 3 days/month at one that would fall apart if none of the "lefties" showed up.  I always get a kick out of the "Father -----  Center" being staffed by gays, pagans, and gay pagans.

I could well believe that conservatives donate more monetarily, but without the liberals none of it would actually get anywhere near the people who need it.   They would actually have to rub shoulders with the poors and most of them I know could never tolerate that.
 
2013-04-15 01:28:48 PM

Lawyers With Nukes: If people that have a religion are taking over the country, why aren't they represented more in the mainstream media, or Hollywood? I've heard lately there's some money to made in those two industries, so yeah?


The fact the products that the religiously-motivated have produced to date suck monkey balls might have a little something to do with that.

Go ahead, find me the religiously-motivated and themed media product that has found favor in the free market.

(I can think of a few, actually.  Godspell, for one.)

But in general, their track record at producing consumer-acceptable product is abysmal.

It's not that they're being blacklisted, it's that their product generally sucks.
 
2013-04-15 01:29:48 PM

verbaltoxin: Ever watch "The Life of Brian?"


I do private shows only....
 
2013-04-15 01:30:30 PM

I_Am_Weasel: UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!

In that order?


2.bp.blogspot.com

Yes.
 
2013-04-15 01:33:40 PM

Zeno-25: I_C_Weener: Epoch_Zero: I_C_Weener: What have you done for Haiti?

Donated to the Red Cross Haiti fund. I didn't even try to convince people trying to put their country back together to change religion or pity them enough, or think so lowly of them that I would go there, flaunting my opulent lifestyle among their poverty, and personally give out things that I deem they need to make their lives better according to my personal views.

So, a one time donation gives you the ability to critique what some churches are doing quarterly.  A once and forget it donation.  Good for you.  They probably don't need any more help on an ongoing basis.

I salute you and your ability to complain about those who are willing to continue helping.

A single can of food is worth more than a thousand Bibles.


"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"   (That's from memory, so I probably misquoted it.)

Anyway, canned bread is disgusting.

Give whatever it is within your ability and judgement to give.  Don't begrudge somebody who gave, but is less committed to the cause than you.  Don't disparage those who have apparently drank the Kool-Aid and are waaay more committed than you - their worldview and motivations are different than you, and maybe they're not all fools and attention whores.

Disclaimer: I both gave some money and went to Haiti on a medical mission trip.  If anybody is interested in doing the same, check out Project Medishare. They're based in a hospital now, but when I was there it was a tent hospital on the grounds of the Toussaint Louverture International Airport.  (They moved into the building a week after I left there).  The worst part was the frustration and dismay when faced with the sheer magnitude of human misery, of which we could only alleviate a tiny fraction.  It's so infuriating to see people who went to Haiti and gushed about what a positive experience it was.   Example  Well, I guess they're trying to help, in their own way.
 
2013-04-15 01:39:50 PM

jcooli09: It isn't charity work when missionaries go to these places, they aren't doing out of true compassion. It's marketing. They're doing it to advance the interests of their religion and increase it's power over others.


Having met numerous young adults who have done missionary work (particularly those who did it because it was expected of them rather than their desire), many of them despise the people they are supposed to help (which makes them feel good about how much better they are) and see their presence at a mission as a shining example that the poor misguided "clients" should emulate.
 
2013-04-15 01:46:24 PM
Because overpopulating (anti birth control, anti abortion) and salting the earth (fracking, anti envrionmental policies) with superstitious (anti evolution, prayer in public schools) stupid (anti science, anti funding of education) consumers (pro big business) is their ultimate goal.
 
2013-04-15 02:09:43 PM
Why is homosexuality considered so much more grave a sin than not helping the poor? When Christ talked about people going to hell, he almost exclusively named two groups - nonbelievers and those who refused to help the poor and the downtrodden. Not once did he mention someone going to hell for any sex-related sin. In fact, the only sex-related sin he ever talked about was adultery, and it was in the context of when you could get divorced.

Oh yeah, that reminds me: Christ said the only licit divorce is when one spouse cheats on the other. Any other kind of divorce means both are guilty of sin. How many divorced Christians do you know who complain about homosexuality? Exactly.

/ not a Christian
// not religious at all
/// likes to study religion
 
2013-04-15 02:24:58 PM
It's bigotry, prejudice, hatred and racism guiding values voters, not religion.  Religion is just their smokescreen.
 
2013-04-15 02:31:36 PM

Lord Dimwit: Why is homosexuality considered so much more grave a sin than not helping the poor? When Christ talked about people going to hell, he almost exclusively named two groups - nonbelievers and those who refused to help the poor and the downtrodden. Not once did he mention someone going to hell for any sex-related sin. In fact, the only sex-related sin he ever talked about was adultery, and it was in the context of when you could get divorced.

Oh yeah, that reminds me: Christ said the only licit divorce is when one spouse cheats on the other. Any other kind of divorce means both are guilty of sin. How many divorced Christians do you know who complain about homosexuality? Exactly.

/ not a Christian
// not religious at all
/// likes to study religion


To address your first point: fundies would argue Jesus never said anything about homosexuality because it is so blatantly obvious it's a sin that He did not deem it necessary to even condemn it.  That's why He also never said anything about sacrificing babies to Baal - of *course* you wouldn't do that, there's no need to comment on that.  The arguments against enforcing Levitical law in 21st century America from both Christian and secular perspectives are already widely known, and so I won't bother to go over all that here.

You also have to remember that Jesus railed against the respected religious authorities of the day.  What outraged people at the time was not His saying that nonbelievers were going to Hell, but that persons who followed the letter of religious law but not the intent were unrighteous.  "You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.  You tithe with mint, dill, and cumin, but neglect justice, mercy, and faithfulness.  You are like whitewashed tombs which appear beautiful and clean on the outside, but contain uncleanness and dead men's bones."   Sound applicable to the religious leaders of today?  Hmmmm

To address your second point, Jesus actually stated that NO divorce is OK in the eyes of God.  He stated that Moses made a concession to mankind's sinful nature.  Jesus stated, however, that anyone who divorces and remarries is also guilty of adultery in the eyes of God.  Disciples: "WAT?!  If that's true, why bother getting married at all?"  Jesus: *dons eyeglasses* "Yep. Deal with it."   Matthew 19
 
2013-04-15 02:32:51 PM
My former mother-in-law was a vicious, selfish, thieving drunk, but she went to church every morning and sang her lungs out. Apparently she believed that going to church wiped her slate clean each day, so she could continue to be an awful person. And I'm certain she's not the only one.

Shortly after her daughter and I split, she was struck blind. I was sorely tempted to call her and ask if it was a message from God.
 
2013-04-15 02:33:31 PM
The serious answer is because it's easy to hate and hard to love. It's easy to point your finger at someone doing something against your religion and hate them. It's hard to give that person a hug and help them stand back up.
 
2013-04-15 02:51:05 PM

reklamfox: CorporatePerson: desertgeek: Because "values voters" only value their own self. They really should be called "fark you, I got mine" voters.

They think that they're worshiping God, but God isn't real so they're just worshipping themselves.

[i47.tinypic.com image 524x640]


While I may agree that man worships himself as a reflex, I believe most religions try to overcome that.
Judaism / Islam (Abrahamic religions) for instance have a ban on idol worship to avoid the Greek obsession with the perfect body.
Buddhism teaches one to overcome their bodies desires and achieve a separation of body and soul.

The starting point of religion is the human being, because that is who is the worshiper.
Yet, if all that is left in a religion is to worship a human being, then it has lost its worth as worship-able.
 
2013-04-15 02:59:03 PM

NostroZ: Judaism / Islam (Abrahamic religions) for instance have a ban on idol worship to avoid the Greek obsession with the perfect body.


whut

Jews had that ban long before Remus and Romulus went for a walk. Nominally, it's to avoid situations like the one presented in the OT, where the people are so distressed that Moe went AWOL that they built a microphone to god (form of: golden calf; shape of: blasphemy).

The lesson is that you don't need an intermediary to talk to god, not that the human body is perfection.
 
2013-04-15 03:16:08 PM

Dr Dreidel: NostroZ: Judaism / Islam (Abrahamic religions) for instance have a ban on idol worship to avoid the Greek obsession with the perfect body.

whut

Jews had that ban long before Remus and Romulus went for a walk. Nominally, it's to avoid situations like the one presented in the OT, where the people are so distressed that Moe went AWOL that they built a microphone to god (form of: golden calf; shape of: blasphemy).

The lesson is that you don't need an intermediary to talk to god, not that the human body is perfection.


LOLWUT

The Greeks and their idolization of the human form predate the Abrahamic religions by more than 1,000 years.
 
2013-04-15 03:40:45 PM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: The Greeks and their idolization of the human form predate the Abrahamic religions by more than 1,000 years.


Depends on whose tradition you hew to. Assuming the Bible sprung into being sometime in the second millenium BC (~3500 years ago), that would put it roughly contemporaneously in the Minoan/Mycinean periods. (I don't know how that stacks with Hellenic culture. Were they all body-worshippy then, too?)

Whatever. Even if my timeline's off, the stated (and contextual) reasons have nothing to do with the human form, and everything to do with access to prayer/worship. Making the argument that the only reason the Jews put it in there was to piss off the Greeks requires LOTS of proof.
 
2013-04-15 04:17:06 PM

Dr Dreidel: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: The Greeks and their idolization of the human form predate the Abrahamic religions by more than 1,000 years.

Depends on whose tradition you hew to. Assuming the Bible sprung into being sometime in the second millenium BC (~3500 years ago), that would put it roughly contemporaneously in the Minoan/Mycinean periods. (I don't know how that stacks with Hellenic culture. Were they all body-worshippy then, too?)

Whatever. Even if my timeline's off, the stated (and contextual) reasons have nothing to do with the human form, and everything to do with access to prayer/worship. Making the argument that the only reason the Jews put it in there was to piss off the Greeks requires LOTS of proof.


sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

bonumpublicum.files.wordpress.com

/I know, chronologic mismatch
//This thread already makes no sense
 
2013-04-15 05:42:07 PM
Article is a good response to those who attack Dawkins et al for being too aggressive.

Fundies are fighting a (declared) war against society, and they are making the world a worse place.

IMHO they need to be challenged at every opportunity.
 
2013-04-15 05:48:20 PM
Because they've all been tricked by Saklas, the Blind God, into worshiping him. A movie villain once quipped: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist."

Nuh uh.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he's God. He's got his hooks so deep into the human psyche that the holy books of the world's top three religions all describe as their deities psychopathic tyrants who demand of worshipers blind obedience on the threat of brutal retaliation for non-compliance--and adherents to those religions think those gods are the zenith of good.
 
2013-04-15 06:08:11 PM
Conditioned from birth to obey the Zionist media propaganda machine, they can't help themselves.
 
2013-04-15 06:29:51 PM

Brian Ryanberger: Conditioned from birth to obey the Zionist media propaganda machine, they can't help themselves.


uhh, Wut?
 
2013-04-15 07:37:57 PM
imageshack.us

It's a power thing. They think by saying God hates X then their ridiculous counter claims become valid.
 
2013-04-15 07:54:34 PM
"Protecting the weak and helping the poor " are not sexy, hip issues and require significant effort to effect.
 
2013-04-15 09:21:43 PM

UberDave: Because the poor are nothing more than low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worms!!  Hanging's too good for them!  Burning's too good for them!  They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!!!


imageshack.us
STERRRRRNNNN!
 
2013-04-16 06:22:06 AM
Oh look, I yet again have to explain to a lib that there are more ways to help the poor and the weak than going thru the government....
 
2013-04-16 06:41:04 AM

giftedmadness: Oh look, I yet again have to explain to a lib that there are more ways to help the poor and the weak than going thru the government....


Prove it.

Social security was started because it was necessary. Once it is no longer necessary, we can get rid of it.
 
2013-04-16 01:28:20 PM
I'm sorry. You misheard.

They're not "values" voters. They're "value" voters.

They are voting to save themselves money, not to support public welfare, health, security or morality. Helping the sick, poor, needy, etc. is costly. It's really cheap for them to rant about how gays are destroying their marriages unless their ex-wives show up and demand their alimony and child support payments while they still have beer money in their pockets. Or your pockets.

This is why the word "conservative", originally meaning tight-fisted, cheap, miserly, is identified with "value" voters, while everybody else is a "liberal", which means a person who is giving, generous and free-spending for a good purpose. You will find that many "conservatives" are social liberals, which is to say, Good Christians, Good Jews, Good Muslims, etc. They want the Government to help. They want to help. They want you to help. Somebody, not necessarily the most needy, but somebody.

Fear them. They are far more dangerous than free thinkers, radicals, or socialists. They've been known to vote for tax increases to pay for schools, hospitals, libraries, roads, and other socially useful things. They don't mind paying high taxes any more than Ned Flanders does. Some people just don't like to work, God bless 'em, says Flanders. These do-gooders are the natural enemy of elites and middle or working class fiscal conservatives alike, not to mention being the exact opposite of fundamentalist Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees. They don't care what it costs if it needs to be done. If it needs to be done, chances are that they, Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, moderate or radical, will do it and then ask for government support when they find they can't do it all.
 
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