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(Guardian)   Nothing to see here. Just Pope Francis starting a revolution with "most important step in the history of the church for the past 10 centuries"   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 50
    More: Spiffy, Pope Francis, Vatican II, transition to democracy, tegucigalpa, Kinshasa, judicial panel, pope  
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26278 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2013 at 2:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-14 11:53:15 PM
8 votes:

brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?


Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic
2013-04-14 10:53:40 PM
6 votes:
He's going to ordain a woman?

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?

He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

No, he's going to try to wrest control of the Church from the Italians who over-whelming occupy the power structure, the bureaucracy, the Curia, and even the College of Cardinals.

Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.

So this is why Saint Malarky decided you would be the last Pope. Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.
2013-04-15 08:19:22 AM
3 votes:
I'm not Catholic (or religious of any kind) but this new Pope Francis seems like an okay guy as far as popes go. He lives in an apartment and rides the bus. He washed some criminals feet instead of the old men who put him in the papacy. Now he's setting up an internal committee that will represent the truly global concerns of Catholicism instead of its extremely insular and corruption-ridden inner circle.

Sure he hasn't outright reversed decades or centuries of poor social policies by the church, but baby steps. The guy appears to be moving in the right direction. Can't fault him for at least making it seem like he's trying to align the deeds of the church with its actual doctrines. So far though, I give a tentative two thumbs up, at least until the mafia finds some dirt and shuts him up, or outright assassinates him.
2013-04-15 12:23:38 AM
3 votes:
Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.
2013-04-15 12:20:58 AM
3 votes:

simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.


"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."
2013-04-15 03:35:37 AM
2 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?


They've got around a billion dollars, at least, and about a billion followers who all (in theory) acknowledge the Pope as a sort of god-king. That's a fair bit of political clout.
2013-04-15 02:56:18 AM
2 votes:
I'm no church historian. But I am pretty experienced in matters of political bureaucracy. And I'll say this. If you want to appear to be doing something without doing anything, you appoint an "advisory committee".
2013-04-15 02:55:42 AM
2 votes:

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


No idea whether that issue is the top one, but at least one of his appointees suggests that it's on his mind.

FTA: The remaining members of the group were each chosen to represent one of the six continents. They include Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who imposed a "zero tolerance" policy on clerical sex abuse in his archdiocese of Boston. . .

/It's a start.
//Not Catholic.
2013-04-15 02:48:39 AM
2 votes:

Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]


I'd agree but I'm too busy climbing a mountain out of the tomb world with Mercer.
2013-04-15 12:43:10 AM
2 votes:
Who does he think he is, the friggin' Pope or somthin'?
2013-04-15 12:41:46 AM
2 votes:

Nadie_AZ: For the first time, a pope will be helped by a global panel of advisers who look certain to wrest power from the Roman Curia, the church's central bureaucracy.

So ... more middle men, then?


It could be one of two things:

Francis is Eliot Ness  just picked up his UNTOUCHABLES.

Or

Michael Corleone just figured out a way to get rid of the five families.
2013-04-15 12:03:27 AM
2 votes:
And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?
2013-04-14 11:18:02 PM
2 votes:
As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.
2013-04-15 10:17:48 AM
1 votes:

Dragonflew: RexTalionis: 51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Odd. According to a Gallup poll:

Forty-six percent (ofAmericans) said they believe God created human beings in their current form over the past 10,000 years.

Thirty-two percent said human beings develop over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process.

It was only 15 percent of those polled who said they believed man developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but not by the hand of God. Of this 15 percent, these people were found among people who seldom or never go to church and people who attended post-graduate school.

So you are saying that Catholics are more likely to believe in evolution than the average American?


If you look at my original source, you'd find that is exactly the conclusion reached by the Pew Forum.

www.pewforum.org
2013-04-15 10:16:25 AM
1 votes:

Dragonflew: RexTalionis: 51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Odd. According to a Gallup poll:

Forty-six percent (ofAmericans) said they believe God created human beings in their current form over the past 10,000 years.

Thirty-two percent said human beings develop over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process.

It was only 15 percent of those polled who said they believed man developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but not by the hand of God. Of this 15 percent, these people were found among people who seldom or never go to church and people who attended post-graduate school.

So you are saying that Catholics are more likely to believe in evolution than the average American?


Trusting a gallop poll is like trusting the neighbor who heard a rumor about their cousins best friends sister. They are usually not as accurate as they should be.
2013-04-15 09:57:30 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.


That would be a nice outcome.  My bet is on a second, parallel bureaucracy instead, that will be well-intentioned at first, but will fall prey within a generation to the same iron law of all large institutions:

The good people doing the good work won't have time to run things, leaving it up to the self-serving scumbags, as usual.

I'd like to be wrong, mind you.  (I'd also like Islam to reform itself and stop with all the oppression and suicide bombing, while we're wishing for things.)

We're seeing the same institutional tapeworms at many US academic institutions:  they're in financial trouble due to decades of mismanagement by increasingly bloated administrative staffs.  Everyone likes to blame "lazy tenured professors", but that's not the variable that has changed over the last few decades.
2013-04-15 09:55:17 AM
1 votes:

Ping_Me: ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.

I play D&D AND go to church. What now?


Roll a cleric?
2013-04-15 08:10:37 AM
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.

Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.


I don't know about a schism proper but  oh yeah there's gonna be some hand writing.  Goddamn long overdue hand wringing.  The SO's very conservative uncle is currently in seminary.  Since we haven't gotten a call, I assume he hasn't had a heart attack thinking about what the church is gonna be like when he gets out of there yet...

the old guard is pretty damn entrenched, though.  This will be interesting to watch.

/former Catholic
//rooting for Francis.
2013-04-15 07:11:05 AM
1 votes:

lohphat: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

1992: Catholic Church apologizes to Galileo, who died in 1642

Does "very little" count?


Yeah! Its just like that time Rex took me on a camping trip through the Black Forrest but all there were all those goddamn trees in the way!
2013-04-15 06:00:32 AM
1 votes:
This reminds me of all the "white flight" folks that escape an area, watch it go to pieces, and then biatch when someone new moves in to gentrify the old place.   The Protestants, escaped the crushing influence of the Church, and began have some success in places other than Europe.  So, the Catholics, with the larger numbers, jumped on board and really began the conversion of the ignorant.  Now, the worldwide Catholics are pretty tired of the Europeans running everything like it was 1400 all over again, and from the old neighborhood.  Since they are the ones sending most of the money, Francis would be a fool to ignore them.
2013-04-15 05:13:01 AM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.


Don't forget the Eastern Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome and which has married priests, though celibate bishops.
2013-04-15 05:06:16 AM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position


I can see why he has chosen to stay in shared lodgings and eat communal meals.
2013-04-15 05:04:27 AM
1 votes:

RexTalionis: The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.


In general I agree. But what about those books distributed in Africa, saying that condoms increase the spread of HIV? Where was the Pontifical Academy of Sciences then?
2013-04-15 05:02:17 AM
1 votes:
Those of you that are calling for selling the art work and returning antiquities I have one question. Why would it better to see them sold/returned? At least in the Vatican hands they are safe and viewable. Sell some of the art and it goes to private collections never to be viewed in public. The antiquities are better off in Rome that's stable and secure.
2013-04-15 04:48:40 AM
1 votes:

brantgoose: Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.


Do you think they'll let him live longer in the job than John Paul I?
2013-04-15 04:25:47 AM
1 votes:
Pope Francis: "It's time we admitted the entire thing is a swindle.There is no magical sky-beard. We just really like the money. And diddling kids. But mostly the money. "

Anything less is meh.
2013-04-15 04:17:43 AM
1 votes:
The Church has had appointed committees of clerics of varying authority pretty frequently through its entire history.

Anyone saying this is "introducing democracy" is a goddamned idiot, they're appointed by papal fiat, not elected.

This being a power struggle between the traditional curia and a faction outside Rome isn't new either, it's happened probably a hundred times or so in Church history too.
2013-04-15 03:36:40 AM
1 votes:
Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.
mhd
2013-04-15 03:30:34 AM
1 votes:
So the new Pope has a Small Council now? Neato.
2013-04-15 02:52:44 AM
1 votes:

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


This may very well be part of it. The biggest problem has been the "Old school" organization of dealing with scandal.  Ship the priest off to another part of the church, and cover up. Some even believe that there is a ring of pedophiles high up in the church.

Francis breaks up that mentality, then there's hope for the Church.
2013-04-15 02:45:00 AM
1 votes:
Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?
2013-04-15 02:42:48 AM
1 votes:
Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.
2013-04-15 02:40:10 AM
1 votes:

Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.


Um no....

The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.
2013-04-15 02:37:17 AM
1 votes:
This is big.  Combined with his warnings about church hypocrisy (Link), and his professed wish of a "poor church, for the poor," Pope Francis is probably paving the way to dismantling the Vatican's wealth.
2013-04-15 02:35:05 AM
1 votes:
As a human being, this affects me in no way.
2013-04-15 02:32:00 AM
1 votes:
Wind up the company and give the proceeds back to the stockholders?
2013-04-15 02:29:36 AM
1 votes:
This affects me how?  Let me list them....
1)
2)
3)
2013-04-15 02:26:35 AM
1 votes:
It's amazing. I have no faith. I don't go to church. Yet this nonsense still effects me, because the church has too much GD power.

It needs to stop.
2013-04-15 02:24:53 AM
1 votes:
brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.
2013-04-15 02:18:44 AM
1 votes:
Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?
2013-04-15 02:04:48 AM
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.

I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.


Don't get your hopes up.

I for one, would love to see  Nuns be allowed to run mass, and perhaps even married Priest/Nuns.

and

They need to deal with the sexual abuse.
2013-04-15 01:57:53 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.


I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.
2013-04-15 01:50:07 AM
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.

Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he i ...


While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue.  What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.
2013-04-15 01:22:10 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.


Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he intends to have an advisory committee formed is nowhere near the changes in the church that came (past tense, notice) out of Vatican II.  Even though most of them have been watered down or simply ignored over the years.
2013-04-15 01:12:10 AM
1 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.


Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.


The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.
2013-04-15 12:51:06 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.


Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.
2013-04-15 12:48:14 AM
1 votes:
Did he start selling off millennia of loot?  Then no he hasn't.
2013-04-15 12:26:47 AM
1 votes:

Triumph: simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.

"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."


But the standing practice was the new Pope almost always kept the Curia in place.  That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position
2013-04-15 12:05:48 AM
1 votes:

Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?


Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.
2013-04-14 11:50:57 PM
1 votes:

brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.


It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.
 
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