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(Guardian)   Nothing to see here. Just Pope Francis starting a revolution with "most important step in the history of the church for the past 10 centuries"   (guardian.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Pope Francis, Vatican II, transition to democracy, tegucigalpa, Kinshasa, judicial panel, pope  
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26290 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2013 at 2:09 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-15 02:56:18 AM  
I'm no church historian. But I am pretty experienced in matters of political bureaucracy. And I'll say this. If you want to appear to be doing something without doing anything, you appoint an "advisory committee".
 
2013-04-15 02:56:26 AM  

Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]


1.bp.blogspot.com

Nah, they come from the deeps, where Neptune never sleeps.
 
2013-04-15 02:56:36 AM  
Sounds to me like they are just forming the League of Supervillains. Ratzinger would make an awesome Skeletor.
 
2013-04-15 02:57:31 AM  

dmax: Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?


Exactly.

And yet society changes and evolves.

So either everyone who is alive currently is wrong, or there really is a Catholic God and we should all be speaking Vulgar Latin and dropping off weekly cheques at our nearest chapel.
 
2013-04-15 02:57:31 AM  

RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic


The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P
 
2013-04-15 02:57:55 AM  

dmax: Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?


Actually, in many ways the Catholic Church IS a democracy just not one in which everyone gets a vote. Think of it more like a rather large oligarchy.
 
2013-04-15 03:13:11 AM  
I suppose that's nice of him.
I hope he succeeds in his reform.

/Atheist
 
2013-04-15 03:15:10 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

This.  The Illuminati Opus Dei are not going to like this.



Fixed for conspiratorial accuracy.
 
2013-04-15 03:17:04 AM  
 
2013-04-15 03:20:33 AM  

Gig103: Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.

And COMFY CHAIRS!!


Wasn't funny the 1st time round, still isn't funny 40 years later.
 
Skr
2013-04-15 03:22:40 AM  
Hmm not sure how much revolucion this is going to be, but when I pulled up the picture of the pope from the article... my dog started intensely growling at the picture.

(He Growled at Wrex from Mass Effect as well so I'm not sure how good of judging character he is.)
 
2013-04-15 03:26:08 AM  

robmilmel: brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.

It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.


spoken like a true christian.
 
mhd
2013-04-15 03:30:34 AM  
So the new Pope has a Small Council now? Neato.
 
2013-04-15 03:35:37 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?


They've got around a billion dollars, at least, and about a billion followers who all (in theory) acknowledge the Pope as a sort of god-king. That's a fair bit of political clout.
 
2013-04-15 03:36:40 AM  
Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.
 
2013-04-15 03:38:44 AM  

iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.


Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.
 
2013-04-15 03:42:28 AM  

RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.


1992: Catholic Church apologizes to Galileo, who died in 1642

Does "very little" count?
 
2013-04-15 03:45:32 AM  

iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.


Wrong religion.


/If I were a rich man, a deedle daidle deedledeedle daidle dai...
 
2013-04-15 03:56:01 AM  

scalpod: iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.

Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.


Napoleon liked the smell of his own farts; the short bastard. All the artwork at versailles and the louvre absolutely pales in comparison to the church's collection.

Tens of thousands of marble statues, at the very least billions in paintings, hundreds of priceless freezes and frescos and hundreds of acres of prime real estate; just in Rome.

/ the problem is; the art world would throw a fit if the church sold 1 master work. And the world's chatholics won't let the church sell just about any of it.
 
2013-04-15 04:04:25 AM  

iheartscotch: scalpod: iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.

Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.

Napoleon liked the smell of his own farts; the short bastard. All the artwork at versailles and the louvre absolutely pales in comparison to the church's collection.

Tens of thousands of marble statues, at the very least billions in paintings, hundreds of priceless freezes and frescos and hundreds of acres of prime real estate; just in Rome.

/ the problem is; the art world would throw a fit if the church sold 1 master work. And the world's chatholics won't let the church sell just about any of it.


If they started selling off their works, wouldn't that end up messing with the prices in the global art market?
 
2013-04-15 04:17:43 AM  
The Church has had appointed committees of clerics of varying authority pretty frequently through its entire history.

Anyone saying this is "introducing democracy" is a goddamned idiot, they're appointed by papal fiat, not elected.

This being a power struggle between the traditional curia and a faction outside Rome isn't new either, it's happened probably a hundred times or so in Church history too.
 
2013-04-15 04:25:47 AM  
Pope Francis: "It's time we admitted the entire thing is a swindle.There is no magical sky-beard. We just really like the money. And diddling kids. But mostly the money. "

Anything less is meh.
 
2013-04-15 04:40:25 AM  
dmax:  but religion isn't a democracy, right?

Religion is absolutely poisonous to the ideas of democracy, liberty or freedom.

It's an abusive relationship with an imaginary and all powerful, yet extremely petty and jealous deity, with  eternal suffering awaiting anyone who questions his "infinite love".
 
2013-04-15 04:48:40 AM  

brantgoose: Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.


Do you think they'll let him live longer in the job than John Paul I?
 
2013-04-15 04:48:51 AM  

robmilmel: brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.

It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.


Good one, Fella!

/Knew there was a reason I had you faved and you've just proved it was a good one.
 
2013-04-15 05:02:17 AM  
Those of you that are calling for selling the art work and returning antiquities I have one question. Why would it better to see them sold/returned? At least in the Vatican hands they are safe and viewable. Sell some of the art and it goes to private collections never to be viewed in public. The antiquities are better off in Rome that's stable and secure.
 
2013-04-15 05:04:27 AM  

RexTalionis: The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.


In general I agree. But what about those books distributed in Africa, saying that condoms increase the spread of HIV? Where was the Pontifical Academy of Sciences then?
 
2013-04-15 05:06:16 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position


I can see why he has chosen to stay in shared lodgings and eat communal meals.
 
2013-04-15 05:13:01 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.


Don't forget the Eastern Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome and which has married priests, though celibate bishops.
 
2013-04-15 05:13:15 AM  

orbister: RexTalionis: The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

In general I agree. But what about those books distributed in Africa, saying that condoms increase the spread of HIV? Where was the Pontifical Academy of Sciences then?


Scrambling to keep up with your mysterious sources of information about African book distribution, no doubt.
 
2013-04-15 05:21:41 AM  
So this will reveal all the corruption the Vatican has been hiding over the millennia and allow the Vatican to be held accountable in today's judicial system?

/no? Then this new turn of events is just an easy way to save face, and will make it so that the Curia's money isn't hoarded as much?
//keep following the words of your saviour
 
2013-04-15 05:21:52 AM  
Oh, so what will the advisory commitee say about raping and torturing boys?
 
2013-04-15 05:22:42 AM  
It's cute how some people think that there will be some kind of change because the new Pope changes the draperies.
 
2013-04-15 05:57:36 AM  

scalpod: Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]

I'd agree but I'm too busy climbing a mountain out of the tomb world with Mercer.


yeah, keep clinging to that empathy-box, sheeple.
Meanwhile, We androids have found out the real Mercer!
 
2013-04-15 06:00:32 AM  
This reminds me of all the "white flight" folks that escape an area, watch it go to pieces, and then biatch when someone new moves in to gentrify the old place.   The Protestants, escaped the crushing influence of the Church, and began have some success in places other than Europe.  So, the Catholics, with the larger numbers, jumped on board and really began the conversion of the ignorant.  Now, the worldwide Catholics are pretty tired of the Europeans running everything like it was 1400 all over again, and from the old neighborhood.  Since they are the ones sending most of the money, Francis would be a fool to ignore them.
 
2013-04-15 06:01:30 AM  
Sooooo, Pope Francis gives the Curia months to hide their shiat and come up with alibis and lies.


Well done, Francis. Well done.
 
2013-04-15 07:02:59 AM  
I read that as Joe Piscapo.
bjdwsm.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-15 07:11:05 AM  

lohphat: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

1992: Catholic Church apologizes to Galileo, who died in 1642

Does "very little" count?


Yeah! Its just like that time Rex took me on a camping trip through the Black Forrest but all there were all those goddamn trees in the way!
 
2013-04-15 07:12:22 AM  

Cyclometh: It's cute how some people think that there will be some kind of change because the new Pope changes the draperies.


The new pope manscapes!?
 
2013-04-15 07:41:23 AM  

katerbug72: I read that as Joe Piscapo.
[bjdwsm.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]


Oops, Piscopo.
 
2013-04-15 07:46:29 AM  
Oooh, a new committee! That will surely effect the needed changes!
 
2013-04-15 07:50:28 AM  

brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?


What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?
 
2013-04-15 07:52:20 AM  

Dragonflew: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?


Would that really be so bad?
 
2013-04-15 07:57:50 AM  

Smoking GNU: Dragonflew: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?

Would that really be so bad?


I have my fingers crossed.
 
2013-04-15 08:01:54 AM  
Allow birth control

Accept gays in the church

Allow women priests

Allow marriage for priests

or STFU
 
2013-04-15 08:07:13 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.


jonewer: Oh, so what will the advisory commitee say about raping and torturing boys?


". They include Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who imposed a "zero tolerance" policy on clerical sex abuse in his archdiocese of Boston, "

/rteffinga
 
2013-04-15 08:10:37 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.

Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.


I don't know about a schism proper but  oh yeah there's gonna be some hand writing.  Goddamn long overdue hand wringing.  The SO's very conservative uncle is currently in seminary.  Since we haven't gotten a call, I assume he hasn't had a heart attack thinking about what the church is gonna be like when he gets out of there yet...

the old guard is pretty damn entrenched, though.  This will be interesting to watch.

/former Catholic
//rooting for Francis.
 
2013-04-15 08:14:22 AM  

ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.


My wife hates it when I point this out to her.
 
2013-04-15 08:19:22 AM  
I'm not Catholic (or religious of any kind) but this new Pope Francis seems like an okay guy as far as popes go. He lives in an apartment and rides the bus. He washed some criminals feet instead of the old men who put him in the papacy. Now he's setting up an internal committee that will represent the truly global concerns of Catholicism instead of its extremely insular and corruption-ridden inner circle.

Sure he hasn't outright reversed decades or centuries of poor social policies by the church, but baby steps. The guy appears to be moving in the right direction. Can't fault him for at least making it seem like he's trying to align the deeds of the church with its actual doctrines. So far though, I give a tentative two thumbs up, at least until the mafia finds some dirt and shuts him up, or outright assassinates him.
 
2013-04-15 08:21:10 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.

Um no....

The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.


First, the married men have to be Anglican priests, then they have to convert, and then they may become Catholic priests.
 
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