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(Guardian)   Nothing to see here. Just Pope Francis starting a revolution with "most important step in the history of the church for the past 10 centuries"   (guardian.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Pope Francis, Vatican II, transition to democracy, tegucigalpa, Kinshasa, judicial panel, pope  
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26290 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2013 at 2:09 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



140 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2013-04-14 10:53:40 PM  
He's going to ordain a woman?

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?

He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

No, he's going to try to wrest control of the Church from the Italians who over-whelming occupy the power structure, the bureaucracy, the Curia, and even the College of Cardinals.

Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.

So this is why Saint Malarky decided you would be the last Pope. Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.
 
2013-04-14 11:18:02 PM  
As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.
 
2013-04-14 11:50:57 PM  

brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.


It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.
 
2013-04-14 11:53:15 PM  

brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?


Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic
 
2013-04-14 11:54:07 PM  
Who gives a shiat? So tired of hearing about the god damned Pope.
 
2013-04-15 12:03:27 AM  
And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?
 
2013-04-15 12:05:48 AM  

Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?


Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.
 
2013-04-15 12:20:58 AM  

simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.


"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."
 
2013-04-15 12:23:38 AM  
Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.
 
2013-04-15 12:26:47 AM  

Triumph: simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.

"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."


But the standing practice was the new Pope almost always kept the Curia in place.  That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position
 
2013-04-15 12:29:05 AM  

Triumph: "A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."


They lose their job like a mid level analyst at the IRS loses their job when a new president is elected.
 
2013-04-15 12:30:26 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.


And COMFY CHAIRS!!

people.csail.mit.edu
 
2013-04-15 12:32:55 AM  
For the first time, a pope will be helped by a global panel of advisers who look certain to wrest power from the Roman Curia, the church's central bureaucracy.

So ... more middle men, then?
 
2013-04-15 12:39:03 AM  

Gig103: Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.

And COMFY CHAIRS!!

[people.csail.mit.edu image 360x254]


It was actually the Dominicans. Of course, the Dominicans were also known for fighting against Spain's brutal treatment of the Native Americans
 
2013-04-15 12:41:46 AM  

Nadie_AZ: For the first time, a pope will be helped by a global panel of advisers who look certain to wrest power from the Roman Curia, the church's central bureaucracy.

So ... more middle men, then?


It could be one of two things:

Francis is Eliot Ness  just picked up his UNTOUCHABLES.

Or

Michael Corleone just figured out a way to get rid of the five families.
 
2013-04-15 12:43:10 AM  
Who does he think he is, the friggin' Pope or somthin'?
 
2013-04-15 12:48:14 AM  
Did he start selling off millennia of loot?  Then no he hasn't.
 
2013-04-15 12:51:06 AM  

Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.


Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.
 
2013-04-15 01:12:10 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.


Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.


The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.
 
2013-04-15 01:21:28 AM  

Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?


This.  The Illuminati are not going to like this.
 
2013-04-15 01:22:10 AM  

Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.


Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he intends to have an advisory committee formed is nowhere near the changes in the church that came (past tense, notice) out of Vatican II.  Even though most of them have been watered down or simply ignored over the years.
 
2013-04-15 01:50:07 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.

Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he i ...


While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue.  What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.
 
2013-04-15 01:57:53 AM  

Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.


I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.
 
2013-04-15 02:04:48 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.

I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.


Don't get your hopes up.

I for one, would love to see  Nuns be allowed to run mass, and perhaps even married Priest/Nuns.

and

They need to deal with the sexual abuse.
 
2013-04-15 02:18:44 AM  
Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?
 
2013-04-15 02:24:53 AM  
brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?



They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.
 
2013-04-15 02:26:35 AM  
It's amazing. I have no faith. I don't go to church. Yet this nonsense still effects me, because the church has too much GD power.

It needs to stop.
 
2013-04-15 02:29:25 AM  
Open the vault?
 
2013-04-15 02:29:36 AM  
This affects me how?  Let me list them....
1)
2)
3)
 
2013-04-15 02:32:00 AM  
Wind up the company and give the proceeds back to the stockholders?
 
2013-04-15 02:34:51 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?


Hipsters.
 
2013-04-15 02:35:05 AM  
As a human being, this affects me in no way.
 
2013-04-15 02:35:48 AM  
Why do I suspect the church will double down or worsen?
 
2013-04-15 02:37:17 AM  
This is big.  Combined with his warnings about church hypocrisy (Link), and his professed wish of a "poor church, for the poor," Pope Francis is probably paving the way to dismantling the Vatican's wealth.
 
2013-04-15 02:37:52 AM  
Will there still be cake?
 
2013-04-15 02:39:14 AM  
He hasn't seen Godfather III.
 
2013-04-15 02:40:10 AM  

Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.


Um no....

The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.
 
2013-04-15 02:40:37 AM  

UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.


Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

cdn.static.ovimg.com
 
2013-04-15 02:42:35 AM  

Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.


That's only if they are ordained in another church that allows mairraige, and convert.  It was a specific ploy to encourage Episcopalian ministers to convert.
 
2013-04-15 02:42:48 AM  
Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.
 
2013-04-15 02:42:53 AM  
I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?
 
2013-04-15 02:45:00 AM  
Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?
 
2013-04-15 02:46:37 AM  

Captain Dan: This is big.  Combined with his warnings about church hypocrisy (Link), and his professed wish of a "poor church, for the poor," Pope Francis is probably paving the way to dismantling the Vatican's wealth.


That seems like the sort of thing that could schism the church.
 
2013-04-15 02:46:37 AM  
They're going to start a nuke program.
 
2013-04-15 02:48:39 AM  

Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]


I'd agree but I'm too busy climbing a mountain out of the tomb world with Mercer.
 
2013-04-15 02:49:22 AM  
Gotta find some way to compete with the Mormon Church.
 
2013-04-15 02:52:44 AM  

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


This may very well be part of it. The biggest problem has been the "Old school" organization of dealing with scandal.  Ship the priest off to another part of the church, and cover up. Some even believe that there is a ring of pedophiles high up in the church.

Francis breaks up that mentality, then there's hope for the Church.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:30 AM  
The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:42 AM  

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


No idea whether that issue is the top one, but at least one of his appointees suggests that it's on his mind.

FTA: The remaining members of the group were each chosen to represent one of the six continents. They include Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who imposed a "zero tolerance" policy on clerical sex abuse in his archdiocese of Boston. . .

/It's a start.
//Not Catholic.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:53 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

This.  The Illuminati are not going to like this.


I thought they all got slaughtered by Opperheimer, Feynman, Einstein, Gagarin, Laika, and Von Braun when they tried to stop Star City and The Manhattan Projects from joining forces.
 
2013-04-15 02:56:18 AM  
I'm no church historian. But I am pretty experienced in matters of political bureaucracy. And I'll say this. If you want to appear to be doing something without doing anything, you appoint an "advisory committee".
 
2013-04-15 02:56:26 AM  

Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]


1.bp.blogspot.com

Nah, they come from the deeps, where Neptune never sleeps.
 
2013-04-15 02:56:36 AM  
Sounds to me like they are just forming the League of Supervillains. Ratzinger would make an awesome Skeletor.
 
2013-04-15 02:57:31 AM  

dmax: Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?


Exactly.

And yet society changes and evolves.

So either everyone who is alive currently is wrong, or there really is a Catholic God and we should all be speaking Vulgar Latin and dropping off weekly cheques at our nearest chapel.
 
2013-04-15 02:57:31 AM  

RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic


The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P
 
2013-04-15 02:57:55 AM  

dmax: Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?


Actually, in many ways the Catholic Church IS a democracy just not one in which everyone gets a vote. Think of it more like a rather large oligarchy.
 
2013-04-15 03:13:11 AM  
I suppose that's nice of him.
I hope he succeeds in his reform.

/Atheist
 
2013-04-15 03:15:10 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

This.  The Illuminati Opus Dei are not going to like this.



Fixed for conspiratorial accuracy.
 
2013-04-15 03:17:04 AM  
 
2013-04-15 03:20:33 AM  

Gig103: Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.

And COMFY CHAIRS!!


Wasn't funny the 1st time round, still isn't funny 40 years later.
 
Skr
2013-04-15 03:22:40 AM  
Hmm not sure how much revolucion this is going to be, but when I pulled up the picture of the pope from the article... my dog started intensely growling at the picture.

(He Growled at Wrex from Mass Effect as well so I'm not sure how good of judging character he is.)
 
2013-04-15 03:26:08 AM  

robmilmel: brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.

It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.


spoken like a true christian.
 
mhd
2013-04-15 03:30:34 AM  
So the new Pope has a Small Council now? Neato.
 
2013-04-15 03:35:37 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?


They've got around a billion dollars, at least, and about a billion followers who all (in theory) acknowledge the Pope as a sort of god-king. That's a fair bit of political clout.
 
2013-04-15 03:36:40 AM  
Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.
 
2013-04-15 03:38:44 AM  

iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.


Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.
 
2013-04-15 03:42:28 AM  

RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.


1992: Catholic Church apologizes to Galileo, who died in 1642

Does "very little" count?
 
2013-04-15 03:45:32 AM  

iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.


Wrong religion.


/If I were a rich man, a deedle daidle deedledeedle daidle dai...
 
2013-04-15 03:56:01 AM  

scalpod: iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.

Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.


Napoleon liked the smell of his own farts; the short bastard. All the artwork at versailles and the louvre absolutely pales in comparison to the church's collection.

Tens of thousands of marble statues, at the very least billions in paintings, hundreds of priceless freezes and frescos and hundreds of acres of prime real estate; just in Rome.

/ the problem is; the art world would throw a fit if the church sold 1 master work. And the world's chatholics won't let the church sell just about any of it.
 
2013-04-15 04:04:25 AM  

iheartscotch: scalpod: iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.

Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.

Napoleon liked the smell of his own farts; the short bastard. All the artwork at versailles and the louvre absolutely pales in comparison to the church's collection.

Tens of thousands of marble statues, at the very least billions in paintings, hundreds of priceless freezes and frescos and hundreds of acres of prime real estate; just in Rome.

/ the problem is; the art world would throw a fit if the church sold 1 master work. And the world's chatholics won't let the church sell just about any of it.


If they started selling off their works, wouldn't that end up messing with the prices in the global art market?
 
2013-04-15 04:17:43 AM  
The Church has had appointed committees of clerics of varying authority pretty frequently through its entire history.

Anyone saying this is "introducing democracy" is a goddamned idiot, they're appointed by papal fiat, not elected.

This being a power struggle between the traditional curia and a faction outside Rome isn't new either, it's happened probably a hundred times or so in Church history too.
 
2013-04-15 04:25:47 AM  
Pope Francis: "It's time we admitted the entire thing is a swindle.There is no magical sky-beard. We just really like the money. And diddling kids. But mostly the money. "

Anything less is meh.
 
2013-04-15 04:40:25 AM  
dmax:  but religion isn't a democracy, right?

Religion is absolutely poisonous to the ideas of democracy, liberty or freedom.

It's an abusive relationship with an imaginary and all powerful, yet extremely petty and jealous deity, with  eternal suffering awaiting anyone who questions his "infinite love".
 
2013-04-15 04:48:40 AM  

brantgoose: Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.


Do you think they'll let him live longer in the job than John Paul I?
 
2013-04-15 04:48:51 AM  

robmilmel: brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.

It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.


Good one, Fella!

/Knew there was a reason I had you faved and you've just proved it was a good one.
 
2013-04-15 05:02:17 AM  
Those of you that are calling for selling the art work and returning antiquities I have one question. Why would it better to see them sold/returned? At least in the Vatican hands they are safe and viewable. Sell some of the art and it goes to private collections never to be viewed in public. The antiquities are better off in Rome that's stable and secure.
 
2013-04-15 05:04:27 AM  

RexTalionis: The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.


In general I agree. But what about those books distributed in Africa, saying that condoms increase the spread of HIV? Where was the Pontifical Academy of Sciences then?
 
2013-04-15 05:06:16 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position


I can see why he has chosen to stay in shared lodgings and eat communal meals.
 
2013-04-15 05:13:01 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.


Don't forget the Eastern Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome and which has married priests, though celibate bishops.
 
2013-04-15 05:13:15 AM  

orbister: RexTalionis: The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

In general I agree. But what about those books distributed in Africa, saying that condoms increase the spread of HIV? Where was the Pontifical Academy of Sciences then?


Scrambling to keep up with your mysterious sources of information about African book distribution, no doubt.
 
2013-04-15 05:21:41 AM  
So this will reveal all the corruption the Vatican has been hiding over the millennia and allow the Vatican to be held accountable in today's judicial system?

/no? Then this new turn of events is just an easy way to save face, and will make it so that the Curia's money isn't hoarded as much?
//keep following the words of your saviour
 
2013-04-15 05:21:52 AM  
Oh, so what will the advisory commitee say about raping and torturing boys?
 
2013-04-15 05:22:42 AM  
It's cute how some people think that there will be some kind of change because the new Pope changes the draperies.
 
2013-04-15 05:57:36 AM  

scalpod: Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]

I'd agree but I'm too busy climbing a mountain out of the tomb world with Mercer.


yeah, keep clinging to that empathy-box, sheeple.
Meanwhile, We androids have found out the real Mercer!
 
2013-04-15 06:00:32 AM  
This reminds me of all the "white flight" folks that escape an area, watch it go to pieces, and then biatch when someone new moves in to gentrify the old place.   The Protestants, escaped the crushing influence of the Church, and began have some success in places other than Europe.  So, the Catholics, with the larger numbers, jumped on board and really began the conversion of the ignorant.  Now, the worldwide Catholics are pretty tired of the Europeans running everything like it was 1400 all over again, and from the old neighborhood.  Since they are the ones sending most of the money, Francis would be a fool to ignore them.
 
2013-04-15 06:01:30 AM  
Sooooo, Pope Francis gives the Curia months to hide their shiat and come up with alibis and lies.


Well done, Francis. Well done.
 
2013-04-15 07:02:59 AM  
I read that as Joe Piscapo.
bjdwsm.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-15 07:11:05 AM  

lohphat: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

1992: Catholic Church apologizes to Galileo, who died in 1642

Does "very little" count?


Yeah! Its just like that time Rex took me on a camping trip through the Black Forrest but all there were all those goddamn trees in the way!
 
2013-04-15 07:12:22 AM  

Cyclometh: It's cute how some people think that there will be some kind of change because the new Pope changes the draperies.


The new pope manscapes!?
 
2013-04-15 07:41:23 AM  

katerbug72: I read that as Joe Piscapo.
[bjdwsm.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]


Oops, Piscopo.
 
2013-04-15 07:46:29 AM  
Oooh, a new committee! That will surely effect the needed changes!
 
2013-04-15 07:50:28 AM  

brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?


What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?
 
2013-04-15 07:52:20 AM  

Dragonflew: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?


Would that really be so bad?
 
2013-04-15 07:57:50 AM  

Smoking GNU: Dragonflew: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

What, only to have it vanish in a puff of logic?

Would that really be so bad?


I have my fingers crossed.
 
2013-04-15 08:01:54 AM  
Allow birth control

Accept gays in the church

Allow women priests

Allow marriage for priests

or STFU
 
2013-04-15 08:07:13 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.


jonewer: Oh, so what will the advisory commitee say about raping and torturing boys?


". They include Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who imposed a "zero tolerance" policy on clerical sex abuse in his archdiocese of Boston, "

/rteffinga
 
2013-04-15 08:10:37 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.

Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.


I don't know about a schism proper but  oh yeah there's gonna be some hand writing.  Goddamn long overdue hand wringing.  The SO's very conservative uncle is currently in seminary.  Since we haven't gotten a call, I assume he hasn't had a heart attack thinking about what the church is gonna be like when he gets out of there yet...

the old guard is pretty damn entrenched, though.  This will be interesting to watch.

/former Catholic
//rooting for Francis.
 
2013-04-15 08:14:22 AM  

ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.


My wife hates it when I point this out to her.
 
2013-04-15 08:19:22 AM  
I'm not Catholic (or religious of any kind) but this new Pope Francis seems like an okay guy as far as popes go. He lives in an apartment and rides the bus. He washed some criminals feet instead of the old men who put him in the papacy. Now he's setting up an internal committee that will represent the truly global concerns of Catholicism instead of its extremely insular and corruption-ridden inner circle.

Sure he hasn't outright reversed decades or centuries of poor social policies by the church, but baby steps. The guy appears to be moving in the right direction. Can't fault him for at least making it seem like he's trying to align the deeds of the church with its actual doctrines. So far though, I give a tentative two thumbs up, at least until the mafia finds some dirt and shuts him up, or outright assassinates him.
 
2013-04-15 08:21:10 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.

Um no....

The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.


First, the married men have to be Anglican priests, then they have to convert, and then they may become Catholic priests.
 
2013-04-15 08:22:54 AM  
Meh, Religion...the man made contest to see who has the best imaginary friend.

Whatever, as long as it keeps them occupied so they're not sodomizing young boys any more, I guess it's a good thing.
 
2013-04-15 08:23:40 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.

Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.


We should be so lucky.
 
2013-04-15 08:31:28 AM  
Sorry, another meh item today.  I took the off ramp a long time ago and once you're out of the Reality Distortion Field you realize, it doesn't matter.
 
2013-04-15 08:46:10 AM  

computerguyUT: Whatever, as long as it keeps them occupied so they're not sodomizing young boys any more


They're not sodomizing young boys any less
 
2013-04-15 08:55:32 AM  
Wow, subby really knows how to oversell this move. However, good on the Pope for making this move. He obviously knows what he is doing from his past job experiences.
 
2013-04-15 09:18:11 AM  

ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.


I play D&D AND go to church. What now?
 
2013-04-15 09:20:55 AM  
If that's the most revolutionary thing they've done in 10 centuries, no wonder the institution is shiat. Too bad they represent 17% of the world population and have remained stable at that rate since 1950
 
2013-04-15 09:37:03 AM  
An advisory panel?  Meh.  Wake me when it's a blue ribbon committee.
 
2013-04-15 09:37:50 AM  

CmndrFish: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic

The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P


Interestingly enough, the Pew Forum did a poll on evolution in 2007 by religious group.

51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Your assertion is not necessarily supported by the data.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Religious-Differences-o n -the-Question-of-Evolution.aspx
 
2013-04-15 09:51:31 AM  

rynthetyn: iheartscotch: scalpod: iheartscotch: Is this the part where we sing a song about TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, TRRRAAAADITION!!!!

/ for everyone who ever says, "The Vatican should sell stuff to feed the poor"; I have news for you. You are an Idiot. The art world wouldn't stand for it and neither would the Catholics of the world.

// besides, the church's wealth isn't in gold; it's in property. The church is the pretty much the largest owner of art in the world.

Napolean tried his best to take them down a few notches.

Napoleon liked the smell of his own farts; the short bastard. All the artwork at versailles and the louvre absolutely pales in comparison to the church's collection.

Tens of thousands of marble statues, at the very least billions in paintings, hundreds of priceless freezes and frescos and hundreds of acres of prime real estate; just in Rome.

/ the problem is; the art world would throw a fit if the church sold 1 master work. And the world's chatholics won't let the church sell just about any of it.

If they started selling off their works, wouldn't that end up messing with the prices in the global art market?


Probably. There's only so many people who could afford to buy stuff at the world's most expensive garage sale.

Some of the works just can't be appraised because of historical significance or the artist was one of the greatest ever.

/ they'd probably end up selling stuff too cheaply. Even so, it would take decades and probably end up crippling the art world.
 
2013-04-15 09:55:17 AM  

Ping_Me: ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.

I play D&D AND go to church. What now?


Roll a cleric?
 
2013-04-15 09:57:30 AM  

Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.


That would be a nice outcome.  My bet is on a second, parallel bureaucracy instead, that will be well-intentioned at first, but will fall prey within a generation to the same iron law of all large institutions:

The good people doing the good work won't have time to run things, leaving it up to the self-serving scumbags, as usual.

I'd like to be wrong, mind you.  (I'd also like Islam to reform itself and stop with all the oppression and suicide bombing, while we're wishing for things.)

We're seeing the same institutional tapeworms at many US academic institutions:  they're in financial trouble due to decades of mismanagement by increasingly bloated administrative staffs.  Everyone likes to blame "lazy tenured professors", but that's not the variable that has changed over the last few decades.
 
2013-04-15 10:03:12 AM  

RexTalionis: 51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.


Odd. According to a Gallup poll:

Forty-six percent (ofAmericans) said they believe God created human beings in their current form over the past 10,000 years.

Thirty-two percent said human beings develop over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process.

It was only 15 percent of those polled who said they believed man developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but not by the hand of God. Of this 15 percent, these people were found among people who seldom or never go to church and people who attended post-graduate school.

So you are saying that Catholics are more likely to believe in evolution than the average American?
 
2013-04-15 10:10:25 AM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Will there still be cake?


[nsfw language]   This day can't get any worse.  [nsfw language]
 
2013-04-15 10:16:02 AM  

RexTalionis: CmndrFish: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic

The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P

Interestingly enough, the Pew Forum did a poll on evolution in 2007 by religious group.

51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Your assertion is not necessarily supported by the data.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Religious-Differences-o n -the-Question-of-Evolution.aspx


The difference is that Catholic schools do teach evolution as the SINGULAR and ONLY explanation for the arrival of life as it is today.  There is no "Intelligent Design" dicussions ... the papacy, and the Church itself has accepted Evolution as the true explanation.  Now, the reason being is this does not preclude an overall design by a higher power.  As it was explained to me, how could one look at the Earth today, with all of it's varying life forms and species and then look at the complex dynamics of evolution and NOT think that it is God's work.  In essence, evolution does not explain away the origin of life, which is still the empowered ember of a God.  Evolution merely explains the life we see today.

Catholics are NOT the 6000 years old people (however, like any group, there are people within the congregations that don't believe in evolution).  The official stance of the Holy Roman Catholic Church though IS the complete acceptance of the theory of evolution.
 
2013-04-15 10:16:25 AM  

Dragonflew: RexTalionis: 51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Odd. According to a Gallup poll:

Forty-six percent (ofAmericans) said they believe God created human beings in their current form over the past 10,000 years.

Thirty-two percent said human beings develop over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process.

It was only 15 percent of those polled who said they believed man developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but not by the hand of God. Of this 15 percent, these people were found among people who seldom or never go to church and people who attended post-graduate school.

So you are saying that Catholics are more likely to believe in evolution than the average American?


Trusting a gallop poll is like trusting the neighbor who heard a rumor about their cousins best friends sister. They are usually not as accurate as they should be.
 
2013-04-15 10:17:48 AM  

Dragonflew: RexTalionis: 51% of mainline Protestants believe in evolution is the best explanation of the origin of species in the US.

58% of Catholics do.

Odd. According to a Gallup poll:

Forty-six percent (ofAmericans) said they believe God created human beings in their current form over the past 10,000 years.

Thirty-two percent said human beings develop over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process.

It was only 15 percent of those polled who said they believed man developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but not by the hand of God. Of this 15 percent, these people were found among people who seldom or never go to church and people who attended post-graduate school.

So you are saying that Catholics are more likely to believe in evolution than the average American?


If you look at my original source, you'd find that is exactly the conclusion reached by the Pew Forum.

www.pewforum.org
 
2013-04-15 10:31:55 AM  

Altair: Who gives a shiat? So tired of hearing about the god damned Pope.


Then why on Earth are you clicking on links and discussion threads devoted to the pope and what he's up to?
 
2013-04-15 10:36:45 AM  

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Altair: Who gives a shiat? So tired of hearing about the god damned Pope.

Then why on Earth are you clicking on links and discussion threads devoted to the pope and what he's up to?


Because he's cooler than all that.
 
2013-04-15 10:42:53 AM  

WaitWhatWhy: Ping_Me: ModernLuddite: Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.

I play D&D AND go to church. What now?

Roll a cleric?


Turnin' me some undead.
 
2013-04-15 11:03:13 AM  

brantgoose: He's going to ordain a woman?

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?

He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

No, he's going to try to wrest control of the Church from the Italians who over-whelming occupy the power structure, the bureaucracy, the Curia, and even the College of Cardinals.

Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.

So this is why Saint Malarky decided you would be the last Pope. Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.


I miss Pope Snowball.
 
2013-04-15 11:34:54 AM  

pkellmey: Trusting a gallop poll is like trusting the neighbor who heard a rumor about their cousins best friends sister. They are usually not as accurate as they should be.


OK, I will trust the religious site instead, they're always fact-based.
 
2013-04-15 12:11:27 PM  
Those of us who persistently clamor against boy-farking AKA "celibacy" need to realize this:  The celibacy policy protects the Vatican's vast wealth.

Sex brings offspring that are legally entitled to inheritance.  So does marriage.  Hence the culture of boy-farking; boys can't get pregnant, and up to a certain age they're sorta girly.  Celibacy & poverty vows were designed to prevent anyone from getting a slice of the pie.

Of course there have been countless illegitimate children from priests & nuns, by popes, even.  But you see, the key word is "illegitimate;" illegitimate children have little recourse to inheritance.

If there were marriage, when priests & nuns die, the Church would be on the hook to provide for their widows & children -- quite a bit of that Vatican loot would be drained.  It's foolish to think the Church will ever allow marriage among its ordained -- after all, Jesus never married.
 
2013-04-15 12:14:17 PM  

CmndrFish: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic

The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P


Catholics control the Supreme Court, and these Justices serve for life.
 
2013-04-15 12:16:24 PM  

Dragonflew: pkellmey: Trusting a gallop poll is like trusting the neighbor who heard a rumor about their cousins best friends sister. They are usually not as accurate as they should be.

OK, I will trust the religious site instead, they're always fact-based.


If they've done the same poll, no reason not to. Everything has the same believability when you don't have the +/- or the raw data and the questions actually asked. As was pointed out, Pew has completely different results. The methods appear in conflict because they look to be determining the results in this case.
 
2013-04-15 01:34:08 PM  

worlddan: The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.


If within that 10 to 15 years he appoints a ton of young, reform minded bishops, he can help ensure that the next Pope elected is also of the same mind.

I like this Pope.   He seems kinda Christian in his thinking.
 
2013-04-15 01:37:09 PM  
Huh, Hindus believe in evolution. I guess reincarnating as something better each cycle is a form of evolution.
 
2013-04-15 02:06:52 PM  

Rent Party: worlddan: The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.

If within that 10 to 15 years he appoints a ton of young, reform minded bishops, he can help ensure that the next Pope elected is also of the same mind.

I like this Pope.   He seems kinda Christian in his thinking.


Sad thing is, at this point in Catholic Church history, there aren't a ton of young priests to choose bishops from.  The average age is probably in the 65-68 yr old range, with more entering retirement/dying than new ones entering the seminary.
 
2013-04-15 02:22:00 PM  

WalMartian: Rent Party: worlddan: The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.

If within that 10 to 15 years he appoints a ton of young, reform minded bishops, he can help ensure that the next Pope elected is also of the same mind.

I like this Pope.   He seems kinda Christian in his thinking.

Sad thing is, at this point in Catholic Church history, there aren't a ton of young priests to choose bishops from.  The average age is probably in the 65-68 yr old range, with more entering retirement/dying than new ones entering the seminary.


That is mostly just N. America and Europe. Africa is sending more missionary priests to the U.S. and Europe every year. Africa, Asia and Oceania are most likely the future for the biggest growth in Catholicism, so this Pope is a good transition from focusing mostly on the values of first world nations and more towards addressing the needs of the third world.
 
2013-04-15 02:31:50 PM  

WalMartian: Rent Party: worlddan: The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.

If within that 10 to 15 years he appoints a ton of young, reform minded bishops, he can help ensure that the next Pope elected is also of the same mind.

I like this Pope.   He seems kinda Christian in his thinking.

Sad thing is, at this point in Catholic Church history, there aren't a ton of young priests to choose bishops from.  The average age is probably in the 65-68 yr old range, with more entering retirement/dying than new ones entering the seminary.


If the church would abolish the  Celibacy requirement for priests, there are a number of Catholics how would take the vows. The Celibacy deal was a medieval land grab and has no basis in the Gospels.
 
2013-04-15 02:34:54 PM  

WalMartian: Rent Party: worlddan: The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.

If within that 10 to 15 years he appoints a ton of young, reform minded bishops, he can help ensure that the next Pope elected is also of the same mind.

I like this Pope.   He seems kinda Christian in his thinking.

Sad thing is, at this point in Catholic Church history, there aren't a ton of young priests to choose bishops from.  The average age is probably in the 65-68 yr old range, with more entering retirement/dying than new ones entering the seminary.


Yeah, I totally get that bit.  I have an uncle and an aunt that are a priest and nun, respectively.   They are both fantastic people but getting on in their years.  Uncle Priest especially is having a hard time of it.  He runs two parishes now, and a school, simply because there aren't enough priests to take over the load.   My sister is Catholic and her church has a rotating crew of priests, one of which was drug out of retirement to fill the role.

The celibacy rule is going to have to change, or the church will die.   People used to go to seminary because they were dirt poor and the church offered a way out of that.  With growing economic development global, more people having more choices is a real drain.    Where it used to be "a live of celibacy and poverty, but I get to eat every day OR I can starve" it is now "celibacy vs entering a global economy."    Most priests these days are coming out of the third world.   When the third world is gone, so will be the church.
 
2013-04-15 02:35:44 PM  

pkellmey: Africa, Asia and Oceania are most likely the future for the biggest growth in Catholicism, so this Pope is a good transition from focusing mostly on the values of first world nations and more towards addressing the needs of the third world.


Don't forget Latin America.  In short, anywhere poor, uneducated and desperate.  That's where the faithful are.  Pure coincidence, I'm sure.
 
2013-04-15 02:52:04 PM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Will there still be cake?


The cake is a lie.

Like the rest of it.
 
2013-04-15 05:59:11 PM  

seadoo2006: As it was explained to me, how could one look at the Earth today, with all of it's varying life forms and species and then look at the complex dynamics of evolution and NOT think that it is God's work.


Very easily, I find.
 
2013-04-15 11:09:44 PM  

Rent Party: Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.

That's only if they are ordained in another church that allows mairraige, and convert.  It was a specific ploy to encourage Episcopalian ministers to convert.


In the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, married men are allowed to become priests. Or, more precisely, the vow of celibacy is optional for priests, which in practice means they can marry.

Celibacy from a theological standpoint is not a big deal. It's a custom in the western world, because if you're priest you're supposed to have that be your No. 1 priority, as opposed to your family, which is certainly reasonable. That's all.
 
2013-04-15 11:15:02 PM  

CoonAce: CmndrFish: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic

The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P


I don't know of any other religious dominations that run an observatory or came up with modern genetics (Mendel) or the Big Bang Theory (I was going to say Gamow, but I forgot his name) or the modern scheme of stellar classification (Castelli) or were big wheel in human evolution (Theilhard de Chardin). It's the official party line that a conflict between theology and science is impossible. If there is one, then someone is making a mistake. And yes, that goes back to Galileo, popular myth notwithstanding.
 
2013-04-16 09:13:17 AM  

enemy of the state: CoonAce: CmndrFish: RexTalionis: brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic

The Catholic church is, no doubt, more accepting of scientific progress than most give it credit for.  Probably because that part of the message always gets drowned out by the loud anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage.  Definitely better than the Evangelicals that now dominate Protestantism.

But I feel like you're forgetting that there are still over 25 million Mainline Protestants in this country (United Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, etc.) that are easily ahead of Catholicism on science, and they currently control the Presidency. :P

I don't know of any other religious dominations that run an observatory or came up with modern genetics (Mendel) or the Big Bang Theory (I was going to say Gamow, but I forgot his name) or the modern scheme of stellar classification (Castelli) or were big wheel in human evolution (Theilhard de Chardin). It's the official party line that a conflict between theology and science is impossible. If there is one, then someone is making a mistake. And yes, that goes back to Galileo, popular myth notwithstanding.


I believe the person you were looking for was the Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître.  Simply put, the Catholic Church, in the last 400 years has grown to be one of the leading faiths in the science realm.  Remember, science does not set out to destroy faith, but to find truth.  Religion, and faith, seeks to find truth.  Thus, as you said, the official stance of the Church is that science and faith are one in the same.

Now, this of course does not preclude the Church from having some staunchly conservative values when it comes to the morality of science, but they do keep one thing straight: that human life is always precious.  Anti-abortion, anti-stem cell, anti-IV Fertilization, anti-cloning, anti-sex outside of marriage, anti-capital punishment, etc.  The doctrine the Church subscribes to is one of protecting human life.
 
2013-04-16 10:29:00 AM  
Since the Pope is a direct conduit for God and thus infallible, I must ask...

phillbarron.files.wordpress.com

What does the Pope need with an advisory council?
 
2013-04-16 10:45:28 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: pkellmey: Africa, Asia and Oceania are most likely the future for the biggest growth in Catholicism, so this Pope is a good transition from focusing mostly on the values of first world nations and more towards addressing the needs of the third world.

Don't forget Latin America.  In short, anywhere poor, uneducated and desperate.  That's where the faithful are.  Pure coincidence, I'm sure.


It's always been recognized that the materialism of the first world makes it difficult to maintain a concern for the poor/underprivileged, etc. That's the current problem with Latin America. They have a currently large base, but the increased materialism they have seen in recent years makes it increasingly more likely that they may have a christian culture, but are beginning to turn away from christian worship at an increasing rate. It's difficult to worry about the problems of others when we are too concerned worrying about having enough money for all the toys we can't afford and don't need.
 
2013-04-16 12:00:36 PM  

CoonAce: Those of us who persistently clamor against boy-farking AKA "celibacy" need to realize this:  The celibacy policy protects the Vatican's vast wealth.

Sex brings offspring that are legally entitled to inheritance.  So does marriage.  Hence the culture of boy-farking; boys can't get pregnant, and up to a certain age they're sorta girly.  Celibacy & poverty vows were designed to prevent anyone from getting a slice of the pie.

Of course there have been countless illegitimate children from priests & nuns, by popes, even.  But you see, the key word is "illegitimate;" illegitimate children have little recourse to inheritance.

If there were marriage, when priests & nuns die, the Church would be on the hook to provide for their widows & children -- quite a bit of that Vatican loot would be drained.  It's foolish to think the Church will ever allow marriage among its ordained -- after all, Jesus never married.


Protestant and Orthodox churches seem to do just fine with married priests.
 
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