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(Guardian)   Nothing to see here. Just Pope Francis starting a revolution with "most important step in the history of the church for the past 10 centuries"   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 140
    More: Spiffy, Pope Francis, Vatican II, transition to democracy, tegucigalpa, Kinshasa, judicial panel, pope  
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26278 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2013 at 2:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-14 10:53:40 PM
He's going to ordain a woman?

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?

He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?

No, he's going to try to wrest control of the Church from the Italians who over-whelming occupy the power structure, the bureaucracy, the Curia, and even the College of Cardinals.

Lots of luck, Pape. You've chosen a worthy goal. It's been good knowing you. You'd have better luck fighting the Mafia, not that there isn't a fair amount of over-lap between the Italian power base in the Church and the Mafia everywhere else in Italy.

So this is why Saint Malarky decided you would be the last Pope. Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.
 
2013-04-14 11:18:02 PM
As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.
 
2013-04-14 11:50:57 PM

brantgoose: Verily, your reward awaits you in Heaven, because their will be precious little peace for you on Earth.


It was revenge for Ratzinger, and a lot of other things. That's that. There was nothing we could do about it. Ratz was a made man, Francis wasn't. We had to sit still and take it. It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shiat.
 
2013-04-14 11:53:15 PM

brantgoose: He's going to drag the Church kicking and screaming into the Enlightenment?


Not for anything, but among the Christian denominations out there, the Roman Catholic Church is probably one of the most accepting of the principles of science and mathematics out there, especially compared to their Protestant and evangelical brethren. The Vatican has endorsed evolution to a higher degree than many other Christian denominations, including the ones who literally believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The Vatican also has an official astronomer and observatory, plus the Pontifical Academy of Sciences uses the world's leading scientists to advise the Pope in matters of science.

The Church has changed a little since the trial of Galileo and it'd take a fool not to see that.

/Not a Catholic
 
2013-04-14 11:54:07 PM
Who gives a shiat? So tired of hearing about the god damned Pope.
 
2013-04-15 12:03:27 AM
And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?
 
2013-04-15 12:05:48 AM

Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?


Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.
 
2013-04-15 12:20:58 AM

simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.


"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."
 
2013-04-15 12:23:38 AM
Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.
 
2013-04-15 12:26:47 AM

Triumph: simplicimus: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

Not many, unless he disbands the Curia.

"A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."


But the standing practice was the new Pope almost always kept the Curia in place.  That's why Francis specifically said that the Curia would TEMPORARILY retain their position
 
2013-04-15 12:29:05 AM

Triumph: "A little-known fact is that every member of the Curia loses his job when a Pope dies, or, in this case, resigns."


They lose their job like a mid level analyst at the IRS loses their job when a new president is elected.
 
2013-04-15 12:30:26 AM

Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.


And COMFY CHAIRS!!

people.csail.mit.edu
 
2013-04-15 12:32:55 AM
For the first time, a pope will be helped by a global panel of advisers who look certain to wrest power from the Roman Curia, the church's central bureaucracy.

So ... more middle men, then?
 
2013-04-15 12:39:03 AM

Gig103: Darth_Lukecash: Whoa. This is farking serious. Really serious.

The Jesuits are not to be farked with.They have science on their side.

And COMFY CHAIRS!!

[people.csail.mit.edu image 360x254]


It was actually the Dominicans. Of course, the Dominicans were also known for fighting against Spain's brutal treatment of the Native Americans
 
2013-04-15 12:41:46 AM

Nadie_AZ: For the first time, a pope will be helped by a global panel of advisers who look certain to wrest power from the Roman Curia, the church's central bureaucracy.

So ... more middle men, then?


It could be one of two things:

Francis is Eliot Ness  just picked up his UNTOUCHABLES.

Or

Michael Corleone just figured out a way to get rid of the five families.
 
2013-04-15 12:43:10 AM
Who does he think he is, the friggin' Pope or somthin'?
 
2013-04-15 12:48:14 AM
Did he start selling off millennia of loot?  Then no he hasn't.
 
2013-04-15 12:51:06 AM

Lsherm: As a Catholic, I welcome this - primarily because it will eventually allow for some changes.

While brantgoose can't possibly understand why this is a big deal, it's a first step towards the democratization of the church on a worldwide level.  For a standing Pope to have an "advisory committee" is a huge deal.  The Roman Curia has held power, almost without interruption, for 2000 years.  It's like a bad DMV you can't get rid of.


Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.  This is indeed, as Joe Biden would put it, A Big Farking Deal.  I don't see reform happening as quickly or as widely as you seem to, but it's definitely a first step to something more.  What that something may be, I'm not particularly optinmistic about.  I'll get optimistic when I see him taking real, tangible, outward-facing, results-orients steps toward reform.

Sadly, I think any attempt at real reform at this stage will result in another schism, the like of which also hasn't been seen for 1,000 years.  The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

Francis inherited a Church in crisis.  I have serious doubts that it can be saved at the point.
 
2013-04-15 01:12:10 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.


Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.


The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.
 
2013-04-15 01:21:28 AM

Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?


This.  The Illuminati are not going to like this.
 
2013-04-15 01:22:10 AM

Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.


Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he intends to have an advisory committee formed is nowhere near the changes in the church that came (past tense, notice) out of Vatican II.  Even though most of them have been watered down or simply ignored over the years.
 
2013-04-15 01:50:07 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Gratuitous insults to brntgoose aside, I hear you.

Well, he deserved it for a simple minded Fark Catholic bashing comment from the get-go.

Benevolent Misanthrope: The Sedevacantists are real and they're gaining traction in the USA already.  There are what I would call "fundamentalist" Catholic factions all over.  I can see a definite split happening over reform.  I can also see a split happening if it doesn't happen, though.

The Sedevacantists are small blocs without any power, money, or plan.  There won't be another Great Schism primarily because the Protestant Reformation already took care of people who didn't care to be part of the church.

The real trick to reforming the church at this point is maintaining the organization while removing the stronghold the Italians have on it.  It can be done - Italians go to church less than Americans - but maintaining the organization is key.  The Curia was supposed to provide that consistency, but instead it's become a boondoggle for church bureaucrats who have no interest in changing.  It sounds like Francis is starting to reform the underlying bureaucracy of the church, which is how real change happens later.

If there's any break, it's going to be from Europeans, and they care less about the church than the US, South America, and Africa.  And honestly, at this point, they probably don't care that much.

At least he's trying.  No other Pope has attempted something this significant in the past 100 years, and that includes Vatican II.  This is reform at the heart of the church.

Paul VI had an advisory committee.  On birth control.  When they came back and said the Church could and should allow birth control, he ignored them.  They didn't say what he thought.  And Paul was a reformer.  Come to think of it, every pope in the last 50 years has been hailed by one faction or another as a reformer.

I think you should go back and read the notes and documents from Vatican II.  Announcing that he i ...


While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue.  What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.
 
2013-04-15 01:57:53 AM

Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.


I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.
 
2013-04-15 02:04:48 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: While it's all conjecture, the birth control advisory committee was single issue. What Francis is proposing is a committee on governance, which is a huge deal.

I agree - this is big.  I just hope it's bigger than I think.


Don't get your hopes up.

I for one, would love to see  Nuns be allowed to run mass, and perhaps even married Priest/Nuns.

and

They need to deal with the sexual abuse.
 
2013-04-15 02:18:44 AM
Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?
 
2013-04-15 02:24:53 AM
brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.
 
2013-04-15 02:26:35 AM
It's amazing. I have no faith. I don't go to church. Yet this nonsense still effects me, because the church has too much GD power.

It needs to stop.
 
2013-04-15 02:29:25 AM
Open the vault?
 
2013-04-15 02:29:36 AM
This affects me how?  Let me list them....
1)
2)
3)
 
2013-04-15 02:32:00 AM
Wind up the company and give the proceeds back to the stockholders?
 
2013-04-15 02:34:51 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?


Hipsters.
 
2013-04-15 02:35:05 AM
As a human being, this affects me in no way.
 
2013-04-15 02:35:48 AM
Why do I suspect the church will double down or worsen?
 
2013-04-15 02:37:17 AM
This is big.  Combined with his warnings about church hypocrisy (Link), and his professed wish of a "poor church, for the poor," Pope Francis is probably paving the way to dismantling the Vatican's wealth.
 
2013-04-15 02:37:52 AM
Will there still be cake?
 
2013-04-15 02:39:14 AM
He hasn't seen Godfather III.
 
2013-04-15 02:40:10 AM

Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.


Um no....

The only exceptions to that are Deacons (who will never be full fledged priests) and if they come from priesthoods of other religions.  Men who enter the priesthood after their wife's death is allowed. My brothers pastor wife passed away.
 
2013-04-15 02:40:37 AM

UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.


Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

cdn.static.ovimg.com
 
2013-04-15 02:42:35 AM

Phoenix_M: brantgoose:

He's going to revive the priesthood by allowing married priests for the first time in over a thousand years?


They've been allowing "already" married men to become Priest again for about 20 years.  I know 2 of them.


That's only if they are ordained in another church that allows mairraige, and convert.  It was a specific ploy to encourage Episcopalian ministers to convert.
 
2013-04-15 02:42:48 AM
Some people play D&D, some people are into baseball, some people go to church.
 
2013-04-15 02:42:53 AM
I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?
 
2013-04-15 02:45:00 AM
Until they stop using the word bishopric, there is no real reform.

/I understand the need for advisors, but religion isn't a democracy, right?
 
2013-04-15 02:46:37 AM

Captain Dan: This is big.  Combined with his warnings about church hypocrisy (Link), and his professed wish of a "poor church, for the poor," Pope Francis is probably paving the way to dismantling the Vatican's wealth.


That seems like the sort of thing that could schism the church.
 
2013-04-15 02:46:37 AM
They're going to start a nuke program.
 
2013-04-15 02:48:39 AM

Steak_Cake_Sause: UsikFark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why does the west still pretend that Catholicism is relevant in 2013?

Hipsters.

Too mainstream. They are into Alvianism, you've probably never heard of it.

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]


I'd agree but I'm too busy climbing a mountain out of the tomb world with Mercer.
 
2013-04-15 02:49:22 AM
Gotta find some way to compete with the Mormon Church.
 
2013-04-15 02:52:44 AM

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


This may very well be part of it. The biggest problem has been the "Old school" organization of dealing with scandal.  Ship the priest off to another part of the church, and cover up. Some even believe that there is a ring of pedophiles high up in the church.

Francis breaks up that mentality, then there's hope for the Church.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:30 AM
The downside is that he is old. And while he's moving quickly the fact is that at best he has ten-15 years. So there isn't anything really permanent. Look at it as a big experiment.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:42 AM

C18H27NO3: I didn't RTWholeFA. Did he make not molesting children the #1 priority or is there other stuff at the forefront?


No idea whether that issue is the top one, but at least one of his appointees suggests that it's on his mind.

FTA: The remaining members of the group were each chosen to represent one of the six continents. They include Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who imposed a "zero tolerance" policy on clerical sex abuse in his archdiocese of Boston. . .

/It's a start.
//Not Catholic.
 
2013-04-15 02:55:53 AM

Lionel Mandrake: Red Shirt Blues: And how many days before he mysteriously dies of a heart attack?

This.  The Illuminati are not going to like this.


I thought they all got slaughtered by Opperheimer, Feynman, Einstein, Gagarin, Laika, and Von Braun when they tried to stop Star City and The Manhattan Projects from joining forces.
 
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