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(Yahoo)   If you found a small amount of cash in a stray wallet on a park bench in New York City, would you take it? The NYPD hopes you do   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 188
    More: Asinine, New York Police Department, chess tactics, New York Civil Liberties Union, possession of stolen property, habitual offender, old single  
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19846 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2013 at 3:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-14 08:16:15 PM
cache.ohinternet.com
 
2013-04-14 08:22:41 PM

Popcorn Johnny: boyd1031: Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!

Yeah, read the article. The only reason they didn't take anything was because the police pulled up before they could. Do you really expect me to believe that it's normal behavior for people to go snooping in a car that's been left open and unattended?


So the lady and her daughter committed a thought crime?

You're either a troll or an idiot.
 
2013-04-14 08:36:23 PM
...may I refer you to the case of 'Finders/Keepers'....

a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-04-14 08:39:05 PM
What a change from when I was growing up and occasionally an officer friendly would show up at school and the kids were impressed. Thirty years later, I'm telling my son that if he is ever arrested he should say nothing and demand a lawyer, and to call me no matter what. I told him that the cops are not to be trusted and they will arrest anyone for convenience, and will intimidate and lie to obtain a confession.

What a travesty this has become.
 
2013-04-14 08:39:41 PM

rattchett: So the lady and her daughter committed a thought crime?

You're either a troll or an idiot.


They sure did, they were thinking about stealing shiat but never got the chance. You'll also see a post of mine up there where I said that the judge did the right thing by dismissing the charges.

Oh, and.....

i37.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-14 08:42:06 PM

Aar1012: What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?

/DNRTFA


you won't have a chance because the way the sting is set up, a bunch of po-pos will jump out of the bushes and pounce on you the moment they think they have reasonable action of theft and felonious activity.

Also I am wondering isn't this the very definition of entrapment? Most folks, if they see cash laying on a bench would most likely take it.
 
2013-04-14 08:42:20 PM
blogs-images.forbes.com

Found some money, and returned it?   BETTER DO A REDDIT AMA!
 
2013-04-14 08:42:57 PM
Simple question for legal experts:

If I find a wallet, what law says I have to return it? I thought abandoned property is fair game; cops for example can root through your trash because it's "abandoned".

Obviously using the ID or the credit cards is illegal. But taking the paper money and throwing the rest in the trash? Why is that illegal?

Might not be nice, but cops aren't there to legislate niceness.
 
2013-04-14 08:49:47 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Simple question for legal experts:


Or a simple Google search: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/personal-property/article7-b.html
 
2013-04-14 08:55:35 PM

Farxist Marxist: What a change from when I was growing up and occasionally an officer friendly would show up at school and the kids were impressed. Thirty years later, I'm telling my son that if he is ever arrested he should say nothing and demand a lawyer, and to call me no matter what. I told him that the cops are not to be trusted and they will arrest anyone for convenience, and will intimidate and lie to obtain a confession.

What a travesty this has become.


Actually that's basic good advice for everyone, not just your kids.

Always good to help police catch crooks, but the minute you feel you're under suspicion yourself, the only word you should say from then on is "lawyer".
 
2013-04-14 09:05:07 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Well, they are trained only in dealing with the dead. What help could they have given?


I chided them a little when I spotted their shields.  They gave me a massive tip.  That's really all the help I needed.  Yet again, though, homicide detectives dress and act exactly like they do on television.
 
2013-04-14 09:28:49 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: If I find a wallet, what law says I have to return it? I thought abandoned property is fair game; cops for example can root through your trash because it's "abandoned".


There's a difference between lost property and abandoned property.

Did somebody intentionally leave a wallet containing cash, credit cards, and ID documents in the park because they meant to relinquish their ownership of those items?  Probably not.
 
2013-04-14 09:47:59 PM

Silverstaff: A decade or so ago, I was walking across campus at college.

I saw a cell phone laying in the parking lot.  I investigated a little closer.  It was working, had power and everything.

Nobody around it could belong to, I was the only person in the lot.  I looked through the address book and found an entry named "Mom".

I called it.  I told the woman who answered that I'd found this phone in a parking lot and was wondering how to get it to its rightful owner.

The woman said her son had lost his phone yesterday and had been freaking out trying to find it.  I asked where he was so I could take it back to him.  She told me what dorm he was at, and said she'd call him on his phone in the dorm to tell him to expect me.

I walked across campus, happy I was doing a good deed.  I walked into the dorm, and there was a guy standing there.  He stormed up to me.  As I started to smile and say hello he angrily snapped "Give me back my phone you thief!" as he swiped the phone out of my hands and ran off, darting up the stairs.

Confused, and angry, I turned around and left.  If I was going to be treated like shiat I could have left his phone out there.  Sounds like the NYPD would have arrested me for just picking up the phone to begin with.


He was doing what he could to avoid admitting he'd done a dumb thing  like lose his phone.  I can just hear the conversation with Mom.

"Honey, a man's bringing by the phone you lost.  Try to be more careful in the future; that phone cost us a lot."

"I DIDN"T LOSE IT!  IT WAS STOLEN!"
 
2013-04-14 09:56:40 PM

fredklein: The only reference to what happened in the PDF you linked to is this:

"Defendant and her daughter are accused of then entering the car and taking the property."

That's it. No evidence it actually happened, just that they were charged with it.


Since it's in the decision, and it's not summary judgement for lack of evidence that that happened, and there's no mention of perjury or other charges against the prosecutor or the cops, then I'mma go out on a limb and assume they didn't lie to the judge.
Fred, you don't pursue charges for three years unless you have at least  some evidence, even if it's not enough to convict.

Which matches her story:

The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

It doesn't match her story at all. The story in the opinion is that the girl and her mom entered the car. Not just stood there.


I mean, you do realize that being accused of something doesn't automatically make you guilty of it, Right?

And you realize that not being convicted of something doesn't automatically mean that the cops lied about every element? Like, say you get arrested for burglary at midnight, and you get acquitted... It doesn't suddenly mean that it was daytime.

If the 'arrestee' was sufficiently far away, or around a corner, it might not have been clear to her if they were 'in custody' or not at that exact moment,. In fact, the linked article simply says:

When the driver got out and ran, the officers gave chase, yelling, "Stop! Police!" her suit says.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside ...


...with no mention of how long a time it took, or the state of the 'arrestee' at the time they looked in the car.


Yes, so there's one account with "no mention of how long a time" and one account with an accounting of the order of events. The detailed one seems a bit more credible than the vague one, no?

And, as a matter of fact,the PDF you linked to has the following:

"...defendant was arrested almost immediately. Had some time elapsed, the police would have been able to observe whether defendant left a note on the car... or whether she instead took [the money] with her or tried to use it."

IF they HAD waited to see her actually take it, we wouldn't be discussing this right now, and she'd be in jail. (Actually, probably on probation, but you know what I mean...)


Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again. The defendant was arrested almost immediately upon her  entering the car and taking the property. As the opinion notes, there wasn't enough time to see if the defendant would leave a note behind, so they didn't have evidence to show that she took the property  with the intent to keep it, just that she took the property. But that doesn't mean that she never entered the car period or that Sarah Palin is automatically President.

In fact, her defense according to the opinion was that she took the property with the intent to keep it safe for the arrestee... Are you calling her a liar, Fred, and saying that she never took the property? You're accusing her of felony perjury, without any evidence.
 
2013-04-14 09:59:47 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Simple question for legal experts:

Or a simple Google search: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/personal-property/article7-b.html


See, that's why I can't believe they pull these stings. From that law:
§ 252.1. ... any person who finds lost property of the value of twenty dollars or more or comes into possession of property of the value of twenty dollars or more with knowledge that it is lost property or found property shall, within ten days after the finding or acquisition of possession thereof, either return it to the owner or report such finding or acquisition of possession and deposit such property in a police station or police headquarters of the city where the finding occurred or possession was acquired...How can you arrest someone immediately, when they've got 10 full days to turn it in?
 
2013-04-14 10:04:28 PM
Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.
 
2013-04-14 10:59:30 PM

Theaetetus: See, that's why I can't believe they pull these stings. From that law:


Yeah. Like I said way upstream, the courts in NY have dealt with this kind of thing before and repeatedly smacked the cops for only knowing enough of the law to be a nuisance. Yet it happens over and over and over....
 
2013-04-14 11:17:50 PM

Mugato: Isn't there a precedent here in the case of Finders vs Keepers?


Finders v Losers
 
2013-04-14 11:23:36 PM

Great Janitor: Years ago, when I was a senior in high school I found a wallet in the hallway.  There were some personal notes that were folded up, no cash but a drivers license.  The license belonged to a student in the class that I was walking to next.  So I went to class with the wallet.  She was in a panic and was looking for it.  I stopped her and handed it to her, told her exactly where I found it.  The teacher stopped her and told her to tell me thank you.

She turned me into the principal for stealing the cash that was already taken from the wallet before I even found it.  Now, my friend was with me when I found it so he knows that the cash (assuming that there was any) was not even there.  So I learned the lesson that no good deed ever goes unpunished and to never return a missing wallet.

Hell, I don't even return lost cellphones.  Of the two I found, one I texted all the female contacts and asked for pic of their boobs, including the one labeled 'mom'.  His daughter was a bit concerned.  To his wife, I just texted her a notice about knocking up a 16 y.o. girl.  I then tossed it into a lake.  Of the other, I just texted one of those text here to donate $10 to this charity.  I did it until the battery ran down.


Texting all the females for boobies pics was funny but texting to donate someone else's money is theft. The line you crossed was way back there next to the boobies texts.
 
2013-04-14 11:29:17 PM

OregonVet: It's not entrapment. I love the threads like this - some of you haven't been farkied yet. And no, "hey, just take it and we'll get some beers," isn't entrapment. Hopefully you learned something.

I do think it's a waste of time tho.


I did learn something.  Don't pick up the wallet.
 
2013-04-14 11:37:09 PM

red5ish: "No fines, no probation, no thirty days in jail. It's the hook. The hook for stealing, for murder, for arson, for treason, for rape, for being a peeping Tom. Break a law - any damn law at all - and it's the hook. Everybody can understand that, and San Lorenzo is the best-behaved country in the world."


Ice 9 would be a pretty effective deterrent as well.
 
2013-04-14 11:59:45 PM
Why would you never get the cops involved in a lost wallet?  Last time I found one, I pulled out one of the credit cards, called the number on the back for card member services and said "Hey I found the wallet of one of your customers, card ID ####...., can you call them and pass my phone number on?".  The owner called me and told gave me their local address (out of state ID) and asked me to next day mail it.  I paid for it with the money in the wallet and that was that.

That's about a million times easier for all parties involves than dealing with the police.  I found the wallet in Ann Arbor, so I would have to deal with the fact that parking is shiat by City Hall, and then the other person has to drive up from Jackson to get it and deal with the same.  Whereas thanks to the nice people at USPS the entire thing took about 5 minutes on my end.

/unless of course there is blood or it looks like the wallet was dumped, then I'd call the cops before I even touched it (if I noticed)
 
2013-04-15 12:08:04 AM
Oh well, just another day in Bloombergistan.
 
2013-04-15 01:12:26 AM
So, don't bother being a good samaritan in NY, got it.

What happens when the arrest from these stings drop off because people won't pick up the bait? Let me guess they'll arrest you for walking past their sting and NOT being a good samaritan.
 
2013-04-15 01:53:48 AM
As long as US Prisons are run for profit by big corps, then expect to see a steady stream of black people be arrested for drugs and petty theft
 
2013-04-15 02:41:31 AM
I once found a credit card just sitting in the middle of a drug store parking lot while I was on my lunch breakAfter checking inside to see if the owner was still around, I took it back with me and promptly called the credit card company from my desk to report it lost and/or stolen before tossing it in the shredder.

It didn't even occur to me to bother the cops around the corner with it. I mean, why should it? Police aren't actually held to any higher standard than anyone else. I'd probably get the same result as if I just handed it to the cashier at the drug store to deal with. At least with the cashiers, I wouldn't get glared at for bothering them.
 
2013-04-15 02:49:31 AM

the ha ha guy: I alone am best: Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.


Try reading TFA:

"Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.
"Get on the floor? For what?" Myers recalled telling the officers.
The officers took them into custody, even though they never touched anything inside the car, the suit says. While entering a stationhouse in handcuffs, Myers spotted the driver of the car standing outside, smoking a cigarette. It dawned on her that he was an undercover with a starring role in the sting - a suspicion supported by the court ruling.
"I thought I was in 'The Twilight Zone,'" she said.
The girl ultimately wasn't charged. But her mother spent more than two years fighting charges of petty larceny and possession of stolen property."

Stealing usually implies physically taking the item in question, not just glancing in its general direction.


Yeah, but she's black.
 
2013-04-15 03:01:27 AM
Cool, they do something like this in Iraq. Leaving a weapon just lying around and anyone who picks it up must be an enemy combatant who is then snipered.
 
2013-04-15 04:08:02 AM

Silverstaff: I walked across campus, happy I was doing a good deed.  I walked into the dorm, and there was a guy standing there.  He stormed up to me.  As I started to smile and say hello he angrily snapped "Give me back my phone you thief!" as he swiped the phone out of my hands and ran off, darting up the stairs.


I would have broken the phone in two and hurled it at him while yelling "Your welcome".

I admire your restraint.
 
2013-04-15 07:13:55 AM

Theaetetus: Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.


Even prosecuting under that section raises a question: who spends three years prosecuting someone for a misdemeaner?
 
2013-04-15 08:34:47 AM

serial_crusher: serial_crusher: SilentStrider: lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.

an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.

couldn't say, a cop killer, make the same argument?  "I couldn't/wouldn't have killed that cop if he wasn't there in my house serving that warrant...."

I guess that analogy falls short in that the wallet was placed there to test whether or not you'd steal it, whereas to cop serving the warrant wasn't just there to see whether or not you'd murder him.  So I'll head that argument off with a modified example:  There's a known serial rapist on the loose who targets a very specific type of woman, so the cops set up a sting operation with an undercover cop who meets the profile.  Suspect attempts to rape the cop, and she arrests him.  Did she commit entrapment?


Are you arguing with yourself?
 
2013-04-15 08:36:40 AM
The irony is that if the NYPD catches you carrying around a large amount of your own cash, they will steal it from you.
 
zeg
2013-04-15 10:19:01 AM

Theaetetus: Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.


In the specific case here, it'd be different from "found" property because the property was inside a vehicle. If (a big if) it's true that they removed an item from a vehicle and left the scene with it, I would be entirely content with their being arrested. That is not consistent with making a good faith effort to protect someone's property. A reasonable person would close the door and contact the police (because there's an abandoned vehicle). Also, since it seems this was just after seeing someone exit the vehicle and run off, rooting around is even less sensible.

But for the police's action to be reasonable in either case, they would need to observe the suspects leaving with the property. It would then be reasonable to charge them with either theft (for removing an item from a vehicle) or perhaps something along the lines of obstructing justice (whatever the appropriate term would be for interfering with the scene of a crime since they observed an apparent crime in progress, although that gets murky since no actual crime was in progress).

In any case, however, this is absolutely 100% not "entrapment." It might be a bad idea, it might be unethical, it might be illegal, but it is simply not entrapment as a matter of definition. Entrapment requires more than presenting an opportunity to commit a crime, because in that case the suspect independently decided to commit the crime.

e.g.,http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/entrapment: "Generally, the defense is not available if the officer merely created an opportunity for the commission of the crime by a person already planning or willing to commit it."

(Note: I am not at all arguing that the police were justified in this particular case, as I said above it's not at all clear that what they observed constituted reasonable grounds for concluding a crime had been committed. But the problem with that does not stem from their having placed bait.)
 
zeg
2013-04-15 10:20:55 AM
(btw, Theaetetus, the bit about entrapment was not directed at you.)
 
2013-04-15 11:56:42 AM
NYPD routinely scoops up groups of kids and hold them to see if they have warrants.  I thought this was bullshiat until I was muscled into a paddy wagon (I look young for my age) and questioned.  It wasn't until I pulled out a corporate ID before they let me go.  When I protested the treatment we all received, I was asked if I wanted to be arrested for possesion, even though I was clean...at the time?
 
SH
2013-04-15 12:53:32 PM

Kiwimann: SH: 10 years ago I found a wallet in the parking lot of the local Kwicky Mart. It had $40ish and the usual stuff....

I didn't leave it with the cashiers at the Kwicky Mart for obvious reasons.

What's the "obvious" reason?


Because the guy would have never gotten his $40 cash that was in the wallet back you dense moron.
 
2013-04-15 02:21:27 PM

Theaetetus: It doesn't match her story at all. The story in the opinion is that the girl and her mom entered the car. Not just stood there.


Then if would have said "Pulled them from the car and forced them to the ground..." or "Ordered them from the car, and forced them to the ground..."

But it just says "police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground".

And you realize that not being convicted of something doesn't automatically mean that the cops lied about every element? Like, say you get arrested for burglary at midnight, and you get acquitted... It doesn't suddenly mean that it was daytime.

But it DOES mean I didn't commit the burglary.

Yes, so there's one account with "no mention of how long a time" and one account with an accounting of the order of events. The detailed one seems a bit more credible than the vague one, no?

On that particular issue, perhaps. Fine. I'll concede- when the cops arrested her for looking in the car, the 'arrestee' was already in 'custody'. What's your point?

Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again. The defendant was arrested almost immediately upon her entering the car and taking the property.

"...defendant was arrested almost immediately. Had some time elapsed, the police would have been able to observe whether defendant left a note on the car... or whether she instead took [the money] with her or tried to use it."

Had they waited, they could have seen if she would have taken the money. This means, since they did not wait, they did NOT see if she would have taken the money.

Talk about lack of reading comprehension.

(Oh, and "leave a note "on" the car. If she was IN the car, then she'd have left any note "IN" the car. The only way to leave a note "ON" the car is to be outside the car. Thus, implying she was outside the car.)

As the opinion notes, there wasn't enough time to see if the defendant would leave a note behind, so they didn't have evidence to show that she took the property with the intent to keep it, just that she took the property.

They didn't have any evidence that she took it AT ALL. Else, we would be hearing about it. "Police showed a video of her stuffing the cash into her pocket..." "A police officer testified that he saw her hide the wad of bills in her bra, and signaled for them to move in and arrest her..."

But that doesn't mean that she never entered the car

Didn't know entering a car was illegal. What'd they charge her with? Trespassing??

In fact, her defense according to the opinion was that she took the property with the intent to keep it safe for the arrestee...

"The defense contends that Ms. Meyers intended to safeguard the property for the 'arrestee'..."

I see nothing there about "taking" the property- she very well could have looked in the car, said "Hey, there's some valuables here, let's close and lock the car door to keep it safe..." and then been arrested.

safeguard- a precautionary measure, stipulation, or device

Locking the door would be a 'protective measure' to safeguard the arrestee's valuables, and would not involve her taking them in any way.
 
2013-04-15 11:03:15 PM

six-n-tombstone: What happens when the arrest from these stings drop off because people won't pick up the bait?


Well, having rid society of people who steal wallets they can start putting out bait whores to catch all the rapists.
 
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