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(Yahoo)   If you found a small amount of cash in a stray wallet on a park bench in New York City, would you take it? The NYPD hopes you do   (news.yahoo.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, New York Police Department, chess tactics, New York Civil Liberties Union, possession of stolen property, habitual offender, old single  
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19877 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2013 at 3:55 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



188 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-04-14 12:23:02 PM  
WTF is up with the NYPD? They clearly have WAY too many resources and a truly bad attitude toward their citizens.
 
2013-04-14 12:35:10 PM  

bronyaur1: WTF is up with the NYPD? They clearly have WAY too many resources and a truly bad attitude toward their citizens.


My brother in law is an extremely decorated NYPD officer.  He's a farking dumbshiat.  That tells me all I need to know.
 
2013-04-14 12:39:15 PM  
It's the kind of stuff cops do when they are bored and need to up the district's quality of life count.
 
2013-04-14 12:42:04 PM  
So I should stop picking up those nickels I find on the sidewalk?
 
2013-04-14 12:50:43 PM  
What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?

/DNRTFA
 
2013-04-14 12:56:40 PM  

Aar1012: What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?

/DNRTFA


See, that's the thing: the cops act as if the law says you must immediately run to the nearest officer to report the find; you don't. I'm pretty sure NY courts in the past have stated so, and that cops who acted otherwise were ignorant of the law, overzealous, or both.
 
2013-04-14 12:56:49 PM  
bronyaur1: WTF is up with the NYPD? They clearly have WAY too many resources and a truly bad attitude toward their citizens.

Look up the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative.
 
2013-04-14 12:58:03 PM  
Sounds like the NYPD are a real bunch of master baiters.
 
2013-04-14 01:03:22 PM  
Honestly, I would pay it forward.  For Mr. Foster.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiW0Q4_Qsw
 
2013-04-14 01:04:42 PM  
Twenty-five years ago, I saw an unattended purse under a park bench downtown.  I watched it for few minutes, and nobody was anywhere around it.  It was an area known for lots of tourists.  I was inclined to just leave it there, but I kept thinking how somebody's vacation might be ruined.  Finally, against my better judgment, I picked it up and walked to the downtown police station, where I turned it in.  It turned out that it belonged to a teenaged tourist, and contained nearly four hundred dollars of her graduation gift money.

I almost didn't get involved.  I didn't want somebody to claim that the 6'5" pony-tailed man had just stolen the purse that he was carrying as he was walking down the city street. I did not want the owner to discover or allege any missing contents in the purse.  What if the purse contained drugs, or a weapon?  Should I open it before turning it in, just to be sure?

Thanks, NYPD, for further discouraging Good Samaritans.
 
2013-04-14 01:13:25 PM  

TexasPeace: Twenty-five years ago, I saw an unattended purse under a park bench downtown.  I watched it for few minutes, and nobody was anywhere around it.  It was an area known for lots of tourists.  I was inclined to just leave it there, but I kept thinking how somebody's vacation might be ruined.  Finally, against my better judgment, I picked it up and walked to the downtown police station, where I turned it in.  It turned out that it belonged to a teenaged tourist, and contained nearly four hundred dollars of her graduation gift money.

I almost didn't get involved.  I didn't want somebody to claim that the 6'5" pony-tailed man had just stolen the purse that he was carrying as he was walking down the city street. I did not want the owner to discover or allege any missing contents in the purse.  What if the purse contained drugs, or a weapon?  Should I open it before turning it in, just to be sure?

Thanks, NYPD, for further discouraging Good Samaritans.


These days, I'd be more worried that cops in such a situation would call in the bomb squad to detonate the `suspicious abandoned package'
 
2013-04-14 01:21:26 PM  
Not feeling any sympathy for people who take shiat that isn't theirs and then walk past uniformed officers without reporting it.
 
2013-04-14 01:28:12 PM  

nekom: TexasPeace: Twenty-five years ago, I saw an unattended purse under a park bench downtown.  I watched it for few minutes, and nobody was anywhere around it.  It was an area known for lots of tourists.  I was inclined to just leave it there, but I kept thinking how somebody's vacation might be ruined.  Finally, against my better judgment, I picked it up and walked to the downtown police station, where I turned it in.  It turned out that it belonged to a teenaged tourist, and contained nearly four hundred dollars of her graduation gift money.

I almost didn't get involved.  I didn't want somebody to claim that the 6'5" pony-tailed man had just stolen the purse that he was carrying as he was walking down the city street. I did not want the owner to discover or allege any missing contents in the purse.  What if the purse contained drugs, or a weapon?  Should I open it before turning it in, just to be sure?

Thanks, NYPD, for further discouraging Good Samaritans.

These days, I'd be more worried that cops in such a situation would call in the bomb squad to detonate the `suspicious abandoned package'


This actually happened at a convention I was at, once. Cleared the hotel for an hour. Police/Homeland security apparently thought loose bags were 'suspcious'. It's a bloody convention; absolutly everyone has a swag bag, nincompoops.
 
2013-04-14 01:34:53 PM  
If NYPD has enough time to conduct these pants-on-head retarded sting/entrapment operations I'm guessing there's too many of them with nothing useful to do and some need to be let go.
 
2013-04-14 01:37:21 PM  

TexasPeace: Twenty-five years ago, I saw an unattended purse under a park bench downtown.  I watched it for few minutes, and nobody was anywhere around it.  It was an area known for lots of tourists.  I was inclined to just leave it there, but I kept thinking how somebody's vacation might be ruined.  Finally, against my better judgment, I picked it up and walked to the downtown police station, where I turned it in.  It turned out that it belonged to a teenaged tourist, and contained nearly four hundred dollars of her graduation gift money.

I almost didn't get involved.  I didn't want somebody to claim that the 6'5" pony-tailed man had just stolen the purse that he was carrying as he was walking down the city street. I did not want the owner to discover or allege any missing contents in the purse.  What if the purse contained drugs, or a weapon?  Should I open it before turning it in, just to be sure?

Thanks, NYPD, for further discouraging Good Samaritans.


Get your phone out and video record yourself picking the thing up off the ground and keep it running your whole trip to the police station.
 
2013-04-14 01:50:44 PM  
It's good to know that there's no crime in NYC so cops have the time to engage in entrapment.
 
2013-04-14 02:18:50 PM  
How the fark is this not entrapment?  It's one thing to leave a car or bike in a high crime area and see if someone tries to openly steal it.  But to put on these performances designed to attract the curiosity of bystanders and then nab them for checking things out?  How can that be legal?
 
2013-04-14 02:25:53 PM  

GAT_00: bronyaur1: WTF is up with the NYPD? They clearly have WAY too many resources and a truly bad attitude toward their citizens.

Look up the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative.


I'm afraid to.
 
2013-04-14 02:36:20 PM  
I've picked up wallets and taken them home to try to find the owner myself.  There's always DL or student IDs, membership cards, etc.
There was only one time that there wasn't enough info to figure out who the owner was and how to get a hold of them.  That's when I turn the item in.

Do police actually bother trying to get found wallets to their owners?  The huge inventory at Stolen Item auctions always gave the impression that once they caught the thief, that was the end of it.  Original owners were just SOL.
 
2013-04-14 02:36:56 PM  
guilty until proven innocent, that's our way now.   put some drugs into those sting operations, maybe an unloaded weapon too...and then you can throw people into jail for weapons, drugs AND theft.  But its ok, because we're stopping 'terrorism' or something.  how does that saying go?  'if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear'?

sleep well citizen.
 
2013-04-14 02:58:41 PM  
Glad to know that NYC is so free of crime that the cops have to entrap people to make arrests nowadays.
 
2013-04-14 03:03:50 PM  

Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?  It's one thing to leave a car or bike in a high crime area and see if someone tries to openly steal it.  But to put on these performances designed to attract the curiosity of bystanders and then nab them for checking things out?  How can that be legal?


Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

If a[n undercover] cop said, "Go grab that wallet" or "please take the bag from my car and hide it" then it would be entrapment.

Leaving bait =/= entrapment.
 
2013-04-14 03:07:56 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Sounds like the NYPD are a real bunch of master baiters.


I do not feel bad laughing at your pun. Such a jackass. A funny jackass, though.
 
2013-04-14 03:14:58 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Leaving bait =/= entrapment.


Are you nuts? Of course it is. A bait car to catch car thieves in an area particularly hit hard by that type of crime is not entrapment but leaving a wallet unattended and then charging the first person who picks it up is blatant entrapment. There's no knowing if the person is picking it up to try and return it to the rightful owners or just taking it cos it's there. It's bullshiat and you are a fool for not seeing that.
 
2013-04-14 03:26:05 PM  
"You'd think that would run afoul of entrapment laws."

He said, naively.
 
2013-04-14 03:27:28 PM  
Isn't there a precedent here in the case of Finders vs Keepers?
 
2013-04-14 03:31:30 PM  
What happens when at the end of the day when the cops comes and picks up the wallet? Can you do a citizens arrest for theft? What goes around comes around.
 
2013-04-14 04:00:32 PM  
I can see a park bench or sidewalk being a pretty stupid thing to do. The lady in the article took it out of a car that wasnt hers, then there is this gem.


Myers, a 40-year-old single mother with no criminal record, has since sued the city, claiming she and her daughter were traumatized by a wrongful arrest in 2010.

You know how embarrassing and humiliating this was?" Myers said. "I'd never been stopped by the police for anything in my life."


Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.
 
2013-04-14 04:02:05 PM  
Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.
 
2013-04-14 04:04:39 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Not feeling any sympathy for people who take shiat that isn't theirs and then walk past uniformed officers without reporting it.


I agree
 
2013-04-14 04:05:08 PM  

lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.


an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.
 
2013-04-14 04:06:23 PM  
I dunno, the little biatch tried to steal shiat out of an open car.
 
2013-04-14 04:06:58 PM  
Picking up a pack of unattended cigs is theft? Not only is that the most stupid thing I've heard, but I had already assumed Bloomberg had outlawed tobacco in NYC anyways.

By the way, NYPD, ten years ago I lost a bag of chips in the subway. I demand you find the perp.
 
2013-04-14 04:07:45 PM  
Don't blame the cops on the beat..... These are folks who are just making a living trying to keep order in a f*cked up society. Blame their superiors who assign them to these crappy stakeouts to bust others doing what simply comes naturally to a lot of people in a poor financial condition.

Bottom line? If it is yours, if it has value? Don't leave it unattended somewhere
 
2013-04-14 04:09:11 PM  
greatly damage the confidence and trust of the public in the fairness and effectiveness of the criminal justice system

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-14 04:12:02 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Not feeling any sympathy for people who take shiat that isn't theirs and then walk past uniformed officers without reporting it.


Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!
 
2013-04-14 04:13:19 PM  

I alone am best: I can see a park bench or sidewalk being a pretty stupid thing to do. The lady in the article took it out of a car that wasnt hers, then there is this gem.


Myers, a 40-year-old single mother with no criminal record, has since sued the city, claiming she and her daughter were traumatized by a wrongful arrest in 2010.

You know how embarrassing and humiliating this was?" Myers said. "I'd never been stopped by the police for anything in my life."

Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.


Did you read the article? Neither her or her daughter touched anything in the car.
 
2013-04-14 04:13:23 PM  

Molavian: I dunno, the little biatch tried to steal shiat out of an open car.


The officers took them into custody, even though they never touched anything inside the car, the suit says...

But in the cops' defense, they were black and they were looking, so that's gotta break some law.
 
2013-04-14 04:13:47 PM  

I alone am best: Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.



Try reading TFA:

"Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.
"Get on the floor? For what?" Myers recalled telling the officers.
The officers took them into custody, even though they never touched anything inside the car, the suit says. While entering a stationhouse in handcuffs, Myers spotted the driver of the car standing outside, smoking a cigarette. It dawned on her that he was an undercover with a starring role in the sting - a suspicion supported by the court ruling.
"I thought I was in 'The Twilight Zone,'" she said.
The girl ultimately wasn't charged. But her mother spent more than two years fighting charges of petty larceny and possession of stolen property.
"

Stealing usually implies physically taking the item in question, not just glancing in its general direction.
 
2013-04-14 04:14:10 PM  
SilentStrider: an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court

It wouldn't.

// unless they put a sign on the purse saying "free purse".
 
2013-04-14 04:14:42 PM  
Cue people saying this is entrapment using a completely fictional definition they picked up from absolutely nowhere in 5.. 4... whoops, too late.
 
2013-04-14 04:15:29 PM  
In NYC? No. I would assume someone took a dump in it.

Anywhere else? No. But legal tender found in the street all by itself is fair game. fark anyone who says it isn't.
 
2013-04-14 04:16:34 PM  
Petty larceny for looking without touching.  Theft of photons.
 
2013-04-14 04:18:20 PM  
Yeah...summer of 2001, I'm wandering somewhere up Midtown East after getting my mail one Monday morning when, I think it was a subway stop near Lexington, I saw a lady face down at the top of the stairs, apparently passed out. She was well-dressed with a conspicuous purse filled with instant lottery tickets sticking out of it by her side. People just walked right by her. Oh, but not Mr. Remarkable.

Like a foolish fool, I approached a police officer and pointed out her situation. I'll never forget the cop either, because he was only like five foot-six and his nameplate read "Cocks". Officer Cocks seemed real annoyed with me,  and suddenly a deluge of medical and police personnel appeared out of literally farking nowhere and swarmed around me and the scene. They propped the lady up and field tested her in front of me. She said she was fine, and they sent her on her way. A tall, stern looking medical type doctor man in a white body suit got in my face and loudly inquired, "Are you satisfied?"  I mumbled, "sure", not really fully grasping it yet.

Later in the day, I sat on a bench down across the street a ways, for no good reason. I could plainly see the same lady laying again on the ground at the top of the subway stop..
 
2013-04-14 04:20:02 PM  
Shouldn't those cops be busy busting people for oversized sodas?
Also, not exactly a shock that big city cops get overzealous and try set the stage for a crime to happen.
 
2013-04-14 04:21:36 PM  

quatchi: There's no knowing if the person is picking it up to try and return it to the rightful owners or just taking it cos it's there.


No, that might be false arrest; it's still not entrapment which is defined as what I said above.

According to Wikipedia, that's "conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit".

As

lordargent puts it, "For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do. IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse"....

Providing someone with an opportunity to commit a crime is no entrapment; coercing them to commit a crime is.

SilentStrider: an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.


As you cite, that argument would fail. "I wouldn't have stolen Mr Miller's car if he hadn't left it on the road." "Hey, if he didn't want his home burned down, he shouldn't have built it outta wood." "I'm from New York; everybody there knows you keep your wallet in your front pocket unless you are just askin' ta have your pocket picked."
 
2013-04-14 04:21:52 PM  

skinink: Picking up a pack of unattended cigs is theft? Not only is that the most stupid thing I've heard, but I had already assumed Bloomberg had outlawed tobacco in NYC anyways.

By the way, NYPD, ten years ago I lost a bag of chips in the subway. I demand you find the perp.


if the cops left a 32oz drink on a bench in Central Park and someone picked it up and took a sip from it, will Bloomy come and make the arrest?
 
2013-04-14 04:22:37 PM  

MBrady: skinink: Picking up a pack of unattended cigs is theft? Not only is that the most stupid thing I've heard, but I had already assumed Bloomberg had outlawed tobacco in NYC anyways.

By the way, NYPD, ten years ago I lost a bag of chips in the subway. I demand you find the perp.

if the cops left a 32oz drink on a bench in Central Park and someone picked it up and took a sip from it, will Bloomy come and make the arrest?


only if you don't spit it out after tasting it to determine if it is diet
 
2013-04-14 04:22:49 PM  
Cop: Excuse me, sir, I dropped my wallet on the ground just there at your feet. I can't bend over to get it due to a slipped back. Could you please grab it and hand it to me.

Person: Okay [bends over and grabs wallet]

Cop: You have the right to remain silent....
 
2013-04-14 04:23:54 PM  

Hector Remarkable: Yeah...summer of 2001, I'm wandering somewhere up Midtown East after getting my mail one Monday morning when, I think it was a subway stop near Lexington, I saw a lady face down at the top of the stairs, apparently passed out. She was well-dressed with a conspicuous purse filled with instant lottery tickets sticking out of it by her side. People just walked right by her. Oh, but not Mr. Remarkable.

Like a foolish fool, I approached a police officer and pointed out her situation. I'll never forget the cop either, because he was only like five foot-six and his nameplate read "Cocks". Officer Cocks seemed real annoyed with me,  and suddenly a deluge of medical and police personnel appeared out of literally farking nowhere and swarmed around me and the scene. They propped the lady up and field tested her in front of me. She said she was fine, and they sent her on her way. A tall, stern looking medical type doctor man in a white body suit got in my face and loudly inquired, "Are you satisfied?"  I mumbled, "sure", not really fully grasping it yet.

Later in the day, I sat on a bench down across the street a ways, for no good reason. I could plainly see the same lady laying again on the ground at the top of the subway stop..


Those early days of "What Would You Do?" had a really pissy crew.
 
2013-04-14 04:24:04 PM  
RedPhoenix122: GAT_00: bronyaur1: WTF is up with the NYPD? They clearly have WAY too many resources and a truly bad attitude toward their citizens.

Look up the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative.

I'm afraid to.

It's fairly disturbing.  The NYPD basically has permanent martial law capabilities in lower Manhattan and it's extending north.  Plus use of basically every private security camera into a single feed to watch people all the time.
 
2013-04-14 04:25:11 PM  

Hector Remarkable: Like a foolish fool, I approached a police officer and pointed out her situation. I'll never forget the cop either, because he was only like five foot-six and his nameplate read "Cocks". Officer Cocks seemed real annoyed with me,  and suddenly a deluge of medical and police personnel appeared out of literally farking nowhere and swarmed around me and the scene. They propped the lady up and field tested her in front of me. She said she was fine, and they sent her on her way. A tall, stern looking medical type doctor man in a white body suit got in my face and loudly inquired, "Are you satisfied?"  I mumbled, "sure", not really fully grasping it yet.


I'm suspicious of your story.

It's more believable that NYPD would have beat the fark out of you or arrested you for interfering with their sting than that they'd bother to have a fake doctor on hand.
 
2013-04-14 04:25:24 PM  

nekom: These days, I'd be more worried that cops in such a situation would call in the bomb squad to detonate the `suspicious abandoned package'


NYPD don't give a shiat about abandoned packages (unless they planted them there themselves).
 
2013-04-14 04:25:45 PM  
If you've got to make crimes happen for an arrest, you've got too many cops on the payroll.
 
2013-04-14 04:30:17 PM  
Did someone say "Entrapment?"
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-14 04:33:05 PM  
I found a phone in the park. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry and was able to call the number under "home" right where I found it and didn't do it while continuing to walk to the restaurant I was headed to. I could have ended up in jail.
 
2013-04-14 04:33:14 PM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: Did someone say "Entrapment?"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 480x240]


Yesh
 
2013-04-14 04:33:27 PM  

Mugato: Isn't there a precedent here in the case of Finders vs Keepers?


Actually, it's Keepers v. Weepers...common mistake :)
 
2013-04-14 04:35:00 PM  

fnordfocus: Hector Remarkable: Like a foolish fool, I approached a police officer and pointed out her situation. I'll never forget the cop either, because he was only like five foot-six and his nameplate read "Cocks". Officer Cocks seemed real annoyed with me,  and suddenly a deluge of medical and police personnel appeared out of literally farking nowhere and swarmed around me and the scene. They propped the lady up and field tested her in front of me. She said she was fine, and they sent her on her way. A tall, stern looking medical type doctor man in a white body suit got in my face and loudly inquired, "Are you satisfied?"  I mumbled, "sure", not really fully grasping it yet.

I'm suspicious of your story.

It's more believable that NYPD would have beat the fark out of you or arrested you for interfering with their sting than that they'd bother to have a fake doctor on hand.


Well it's a true story. It was Rudy's New York then. And I think the guy was a real doctor, although he looked more like some German scientist from a Volkswagen commercial. It was all very odd. I also remember distinctly the whole scene being joined by this guy who had been, for the previous minutes, seemingly uninvolved and changing a car tire across the street, and yet now stood conversing with the authorities. I really didn't know what was going on. That was a great summer in New York, though. Ended with a bang, too.
 
2013-04-14 04:39:12 PM  
A few years ago, during the day, I found a passport on the sidewalk while walking to a bar in an area that police regularly drive through. I took it and figured I'd flag down the first officer I saw and turn it in, which I did. The third degree I received from the officer convinced me to never do a good deed like that again. Should the same situation arise, I will walk right by that passport.
 
2013-04-14 04:39:14 PM  

louiedog: I found a phone in the park. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry and was able to call the number under "home" right where I found it and didn't do it while continuing to walk to the restaurant I was headed to. I could have ended up in jail.



You obviously noticed the phone, so you still could have been charged with "possession of stolen property" like the woman in TFA even if all you did was look at it and walk away.
 
2013-04-14 04:39:51 PM  

lordargent: SilentStrider: an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court

It wouldn't.

// unless they put a sign on the purse saying "free purse".


Leave the freepers out of this. ;)
 
2013-04-14 04:41:40 PM  
SO the NYPD is practicing NRA level idiocy?
 
2013-04-14 04:42:12 PM  

the ha ha guy: louiedog: I found a phone in the park. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry and was able to call the number under "home" right where I found it and didn't do it while continuing to walk to the restaurant I was headed to. I could have ended up in jail.


You obviously noticed the phone, so you still could have been charged with "possession of stolen property" like the woman in TFA even if all you did was look at it and walk away.


I probably shouldn't have done anything then. The guy who answered at home was a dick and annoyed with me for bothering him. He then called his wife who was in the park with their daughter, the owner of the phone, who swung by 5 minutes later and barely acknowledged my presence and gave me a forced sounding thank you.
 
2013-04-14 04:42:52 PM  
I found a purse on my way to school from work a few years back. Used the various IDs inside to track down the owner and sent her an email and a text half an hour later saying I had her purse.
 
2013-04-14 04:43:04 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.


Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

Sorry, I missed the part where they picked anything up.
 
SH
2013-04-14 04:44:49 PM  
10 years ago I found a wallet in the parking lot of the local Kwicky Mart. It had $40ish and the usual stuff. I picked it up, put it in my pocket, bought whatever I went there to buy and went home. I Googled the name on the DL, found a similar name a few neighborhoods over, and called. Nobody answered so I hung up (no message).

I didn't leave it with the cashiers at the Kwicky Mart for obvious reasons. Several hours later I got an anonymous call, the people I called earlier were calling the number on their caller ID. I asked if they had lost a wallet, they answered their son might have. Long story short, he was close enough to walk to my place and claim it, offered me the $40 in it because everything was still there, I declined. my good deed for the week.

So, in NYC I'd be behind bars for this according to how I read this article. At what point does this good deed become a crime? Isn't the real crime here the cops setting up such a ridiculous sting just to make their numbers look good?
 
2013-04-14 04:48:51 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Not feeling any sympathy for people who take shiat that isn't theirs and then walk past uniformed officers without reporting it.


Some organization tried an experiment years ago where they turned over wallets with money in them to cops, don't remember where. Something like half the wallets either didn't get turned in or had no cash when they were. Maybe NYPD ought to try that too and see how well their own officers do. Maybe they'll even be prosecuted (yeah right).
 
2013-04-14 04:49:12 PM  

fredklein: ArcadianRefugee: Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

Sorry, I missed the part where they picked anything up.


Myers' account in the article differs from the state's account that said she entered the car and took the property, as well as differing from her own statements to the court, where she said that she intended to safeguard the property for the "arrestee". The article also seems to imply they peered inside while the cops were still chasing the subject, while the court decision states that they officers had the "arrestee" in custody and then left with him, leaving his car unlocked.
 
2013-04-14 04:49:25 PM  

penthesilea: I've picked up wallets and taken them home to try to find the owner myself.  There's always DL or student IDs, membership cards, etc.
There was only one time that there wasn't enough info to figure out who the owner was and how to get a hold of them.  That's when I turn the item in.

Do police actually bother trying to get found wallets to their owners?  The huge inventory at Stolen Item auctions always gave the impression that once they caught the thief, that was the end of it.  Original owners were just SOL.


The police department I worked at would attempt to contact the owner if able. The owner had a certain length of time to pick it up before the item was pulled from L&F and either sold at auction or destroyed.
 
2013-04-14 04:49:47 PM  
Entrapment is coercing somebody into committing a crime.   That's not what's happening here.  This is the police arresting people who haven't committed any crime.

Mens rea test, biatches.
 
2013-04-14 04:49:55 PM  
Farking pigs.
 
2013-04-14 04:50:01 PM  

SH: 10 years ago I found a wallet in the parking lot of the local Kwicky Mart. It had $40ish and the usual stuff....

I didn't leave it with the cashiers at the Kwicky Mart for obvious reasons.


What's the "obvious" reason?
 
2013-04-14 04:50:22 PM  
TFA provides the cops' true intention with these stings:  to smoke out actual criminals who are wanted for other offenses. These expensive, elaborate stings are employed only when and where crimes are rising.

In terms of motive, it's like the North Carolina bill that mandates warrant checks and referrals to LE on all welfare applicants.
 
2013-04-14 04:51:11 PM  

Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?  It's one thing to leave a car or bike in a high crime area and see if someone tries to openly steal it.  But to put on these performances designed to attract the curiosity of bystanders and then nab them for checking things out?  How can that be legal?


Legal? Laws do not apply to police officers, they do what they want.
 
2013-04-14 04:53:51 PM  

the ha ha guy: I alone am best: Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.

Try reading TFA


I can barely read what he wrote, I doubt he's literate enough to read the article.
 
2013-04-14 04:54:01 PM  

louiedog: the ha ha guy: louiedog: I found a phone in the park. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry and was able to call the number under "home" right where I found it and didn't do it while continuing to walk to the restaurant I was headed to. I could have ended up in jail.


You obviously noticed the phone, so you still could have been charged with "possession of stolen property" like the woman in TFA even if all you did was look at it and walk away.

I probably shouldn't have done anything then. The guy who answered at home was a dick and annoyed with me for bothering him. He then called his wife who was in the park with their daughter, the owner of the phone, who swung by 5 minutes later and barely acknowledged my presence and gave me a forced sounding thank you.


Sounds almost like the time I found a phone in a 7-11 parking lot.

It was about 2 in the morning and I was on a break from work when I found it laying in the parking lot. So I called the number marked as mom and left a message saying I found the phone and I was leaving it at the counter of 7-11. So I give it to the guy at the counter and he said that he would hold it for whoever comes for it, and I though that was the end of it. Two days later I stop in the 7-11 before I went to work. The guy at the counter was telling me that a mother and daughter came in to claim the phone and the teen aged daughter was screaming and insisting that it wasn't lost, that it was stolen from her, and they wanted to know who turned it in. These two nuts even managed to get a cop there to fill out a report and told the guy at the counter to tell me to contact him to answer some questions the next time he saw me. We had a good laugh about that and that was the last I thought about it.
 
2013-04-14 04:56:18 PM  

Candygram4Mongo: So I should stop picking up those nickels I find on the sidewalk?


So YOU'RE the motherfarker we've been looking for
...
 
2013-04-14 04:57:58 PM  

mutt: A few years ago, during the day, I found a passport on the sidewalk while walking to a bar in an area that police regularly drive through. I took it and figured I'd flag down the first officer I saw and turn it in, which I did. The third degree I received from the officer convinced me to never do a good deed like that again. Should the same situation arise, I will walk right by that passport.


What sort of questions did he ask?
 
2013-04-14 04:58:02 PM  
"No fines, no probation, no thirty days in jail. It's the hook. The hook for stealing, for murder, for arson, for treason, for rape, for being a peeping Tom. Break a law - any damn law at all - and it's the hook. Everybody can understand that, and San Lorenzo is the best-behaved country in the world."
 
2013-04-14 04:58:59 PM  
After RTFA,  I suspect that she or her daughter actually did grab the "cash", but since the whole bait scheme was so over the top/bullshiat, the judge threw it out, and rightfully so.

Note that TFA is peppered with phrases "According to Myers' account", "Myers recalled", and "the lawsuit says".

Not defending the NYPD in any way, shape, or form...they decided to stage a police chase? Really? REALLY?
 
2013-04-14 05:00:11 PM  

oh_please: .they decided to stage a police chase? Really? REALLY?


Yeah, that was the most bizarre part about it.  It would be cheaper and more effective to just use a bait car like other PD's do.
 
2013-04-14 05:01:45 PM  

The Evil Home Brewer: Don't blame the cops on the beat..... These are folks who are just making a living trying to keep order in a f*cked up society. Blame their superiors who assign them to these crappy stakeouts to bust others doing what simply comes naturally to a lot of people in a poor financial condition.

Bottom line? If it is yours, if it has value? Don't leave it unattended somewhere


The "she was asking for it by dressing like a slut" school of victim culpability.
 
2013-04-14 05:01:46 PM  
It's actually illegal to be in NYC. The rest is just a matter of selective enforcement..
 
2013-04-14 05:01:46 PM  

fredklein: ArcadianRefugee: Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

Sorry, I missed the part where they picked anything up.


Bolded that for you.
 
2013-04-14 05:05:46 PM  

Kiwimann: oh_please: .they decided to stage a police chase? Really? REALLY?

Yeah, that was the most bizarre part about it.  It would be cheaper and more effective to just use a bait car like other PD's do.


I think somebody in the NYPD has a secret desire to be a Broadway producer.
 
2013-04-14 05:06:50 PM  

oh_please: After RTFA,  I suspect that she or her daughter actually did grab the "cash", but since the whole bait scheme was so over the top/bullshiat, the judge threw it out, and rightfully so.

Note that TFA is peppered with phrases "According to Myers' account", "Myers recalled", and "the lawsuit says".

Not defending the NYPD in any way, shape, or form...they decided to stage a police chase? Really? REALLY?


The police chase was the most amazing thing to me.  How many people did they put in danger racing multiple cars down a crowded NYC street to try to entice someone into stealing a twenty?
 
2013-04-14 05:10:22 PM  

boyd1031: Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!


Yeah, read the article. The only reason they didn't take anything was because the police pulled up before they could. Do you really expect me to believe that it's normal behavior for people to go snooping in a car that's been left open and unattended?
 
2013-04-14 05:11:39 PM  

louiedog: I probably shouldn't have done anything then. The guy who answered at home was a dick and annoyed with me for bothering him. He then called his wife who was in the park with their daughter, the owner of the phone, who swung by 5 minutes later and barely acknowledged my presence and gave me a forced sounding thank you.


I found a wallet ten years ago and drove to the guys home and he had a similar response, an almost rude "thank you".  I found another wallet nearby and returned it anonymously to the guy's porch a few minutes later.  After reading this, I'll likely just leave it next time.  Finders weepers, losers cops.
 
2013-04-14 05:12:43 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?  It's one thing to leave a car or bike in a high crime area and see if someone tries to openly steal it.  But to put on these performances designed to attract the curiosity of bystanders and then nab them for checking things out?  How can that be legal?

Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

If a[n undercover] cop said, "Go grab that wallet" or "please take the bag from my car and hide it" then it would be entrapment.

Leaving bait =/= entrapment.


Except they didn't pick it up. They just walked over and looked at it. Didn't even touch it.
 
2013-04-14 05:12:58 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: boyd1031: Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!

Yeah, read the article. The only reason they didn't take anything was because the police pulled up before they could. Do you really expect me to believe that it's normal behavior for people to go snooping in a car that's been left open and unattended?


Two cars race by you.  People get out and start running down the street, leaving one of the cars open.  Nobody has normal behavior for that situation because it's not a normal situation.  Why wouldn't someone go over check the car for a baby, somebody shot in the back seat, or God only knows what?
 
2013-04-14 05:13:16 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: boyd1031: Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!

Yeah, read the article. The only reason they didn't take anything was because the police pulled up before they could. Do you really expect me to believe that it's normal behavior for people to go snooping in a car that's been left open and unattended?


So they didn't still anything or break any law.

They might go and look inside of a car that the door is opened and it was just involved in a car chase that ended with the driver getting out of the car and running.
 
2013-04-14 05:17:57 PM  
Years ago, when I was a senior in high school I found a wallet in the hallway.  There were some personal notes that were folded up, no cash but a drivers license.  The license belonged to a student in the class that I was walking to next.  So I went to class with the wallet.  She was in a panic and was looking for it.  I stopped her and handed it to her, told her exactly where I found it.  The teacher stopped her and told her to tell me thank you.

She turned me into the principal for stealing the cash that was already taken from the wallet before I even found it.  Now, my friend was with me when I found it so he knows that the cash (assuming that there was any) was not even there.  So I learned the lesson that no good deed ever goes unpunished and to never return a missing wallet.

Hell, I don't even return lost cellphones.  Of the two I found, one I texted all the female contacts and asked for pic of their boobs, including the one labeled 'mom'.  His daughter was a bit concerned.  To his wife, I just texted her a notice about knocking up a 16 y.o. girl.  I then tossed it into a lake.  Of the other, I just texted one of those text here to donate $10 to this charity.  I did it until the battery ran down.
 
2013-04-14 05:19:29 PM  

fredklein: ArcadianRefugee: Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

Sorry, I missed the part where they picked anything up.


Me too! But then again I was speaking to entrapment, and pointed out that it STILL WOULDN'T BE ENTRAPMENT. False arrest? Quite possibly. As I stated. Try sticking to one argument at a time.

Whether or not their arrest was warranted does not change the fact that the situation was not one of entrapment. Period.
 
2013-04-14 05:20:19 PM  

SilentStrider: lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.

an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.


couldn't say, a cop killer, make the same argument?  "I couldn't/wouldn't have killed that cop if he wasn't there in my house serving that warrant...."
 
2013-04-14 05:22:50 PM  

Karac: Two cars race by you.  People get out and start running down the street, leaving one of the cars open.  Nobody has normal behavior for that situation because it's not a normal situation.  Why wouldn't someone go over check the car for a baby, somebody shot in the back seat, or God only knows what?


Walking by a car and looking inside and actually going inside and looking around aren't even close to being the same. Had the cops not blown their wad too early, they were going to take something.
 
2013-04-14 05:24:50 PM  

serial_crusher: SilentStrider: lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.

an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.

couldn't say, a cop killer, make the same argument?  "I couldn't/wouldn't have killed that cop if he wasn't there in my house serving that warrant...."


I guess that analogy falls short in that the wallet was placed there to test whether or not you'd steal it, whereas to cop serving the warrant wasn't just there to see whether or not you'd murder him.  So I'll head that argument off with a modified example:  There's a known serial rapist on the loose who targets a very specific type of woman, so the cops set up a sting operation with an undercover cop who meets the profile.  Suspect attempts to rape the cop, and she arrests him.  Did she commit entrapment?
 
2013-04-14 05:25:32 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Entrapment is coercing somebody into committing a crime.   That's not what's happening here.  This is the police arresting people who haven't committed any crime.

Mens rea test, biatches.


Don't you know, not committing a crime in NYC is illegal.
 
2013-04-14 05:26:07 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Karac: Two cars race by you.  People get out and start running down the street, leaving one of the cars open.  Nobody has normal behavior for that situation because it's not a normal situation.  Why wouldn't someone go over check the car for a baby, somebody shot in the back seat, or God only knows what?

Walking by a car and looking inside and actually going inside and looking around aren't even close to being the same. Had the cops not blown their wad too early, they were going to take something.


So you admit they didn't take anything, and didn't commit any crime then?  Or is the NYPD now employing precognatives?
 
2013-04-14 05:27:01 PM  

Great Janitor: Years ago, when I was a senior in high school I found a wallet in the hallway.  There were some personal notes that were folded up, no cash but a drivers license.  The license belonged to a student in the class that I was walking to next.  So I went to class with the wallet.  She was in a panic and was looking for it.  I stopped her and handed it to her, told her exactly where I found it.  The teacher stopped her and told her to tell me thank you.

She turned me into the principal for stealing the cash that was already taken from the wallet before I even found it.  Now, my friend was with me when I found it so he knows that the cash (assuming that there was any) was not even there.  So I learned the lesson that no good deed ever goes unpunished and to never return a missing wallet.

Hell, I don't even return lost cellphones.  Of the two I found, one I texted all the female contacts and asked for pic of their boobs, including the one labeled 'mom'.  His daughter was a bit concerned.  To his wife, I just texted her a notice about knocking up a 16 y.o. girl.  I then tossed it into a lake.  Of the other, I just texted one of those text here to donate $10 to this charity.  I did it until the battery ran down.


So because someone was once a dick to you, you are 10 times the asshole they were.

Cool story, bro.
 
2013-04-14 05:32:20 PM  

GAT_00: Great Janitor: Years ago, when I was a senior in high school I found a wallet in the hallway.  There were some personal notes that were folded up, no cash but a drivers license.  The license belonged to a student in the class that I was walking to next.  So I went to class with the wallet.  She was in a panic and was looking for it.  I stopped her and handed it to her, told her exactly where I found it.  The teacher stopped her and told her to tell me thank you.

She turned me into the principal for stealing the cash that was already taken from the wallet before I even found it.  Now, my friend was with me when I found it so he knows that the cash (assuming that there was any) was not even there.  So I learned the lesson that no good deed ever goes unpunished and to never return a missing wallet.

Hell, I don't even return lost cellphones.  Of the two I found, one I texted all the female contacts and asked for pic of their boobs, including the one labeled 'mom'.  His daughter was a bit concerned.  To his wife, I just texted her a notice about knocking up a 16 y.o. girl.  I then tossed it into a lake.  Of the other, I just texted one of those text here to donate $10 to this charity.  I did it until the battery ran down.

So because someone was once a dick to you, you are 10 times the asshole they were.

Cool story, bro.


First of all, if you don't lock your phone and you lose it, you deserve what happens next.  Secondly, well...I don't have a secondly.
 
2013-04-14 05:32:56 PM  

rkiller1: louiedog: I probably shouldn't have done anything then. The guy who answered at home was a dick and annoyed with me for bothering him. He then called his wife who was in the park with their daughter, the owner of the phone, who swung by 5 minutes later and barely acknowledged my presence and gave me a forced sounding thank you.

I found a wallet ten years ago and drove to the guys home and he had a similar response, an almost rude "thank you".  I found another wallet nearby and returned it anonymously to the guy's porch a few minutes later.  After reading this, I'll likely just leave it next time.  Finders weepers, losers cops.


Just grind the phone under your heel and keep moving.
 
2013-04-14 05:34:59 PM  

maxalt: What happens when at the end of the day when the cops comes and picks up the wallet? Can you do a citizens arrest for theft? What goes around comes around.


Yeah, if you want to get tasered while being pepper sprayed and billy clubbed and have a gun put in your dead hand. And a dildo up your ass.
 
2013-04-14 05:39:24 PM  

Karac: So you admit they didn't take anything, and didn't commit any crime then?


I never said they stole something and in light of that, the judge did the right thing. They were going to steal something and anybody with half a brain knows it.
 
2013-04-14 05:40:56 PM  

Mugato: maxalt: What happens when at the end of the day when the cops comes and picks up the wallet? Can you do a citizens arrest for theft? What goes around comes around.

Yeah, if you want to get tasered while being pepper sprayed and billy clubbed and have a gun put in your dead hand. And a dildo up your ass.


narwhaler.com
 
2013-04-14 05:41:48 PM  
Pretty sure this wouldn't hold up in court, if the wallets had no identification in them and the people didn't drop them in front of the "perpetrator."

*reads article*

Yep.
 
2013-04-14 05:44:02 PM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: Did someone say "Entrapment?"
upload.wikimedia.org


static8.depositphotos.com
 
2013-04-14 05:45:24 PM  
So the last time I found a wallet, I was riding my bike to the gym and running late.  Wallet was right there in the road so I picked it up and then carried on with my business.  Stopped by the owner's apartment to return it on the way home.  Kind of sucks that I would have gotten busted if that was a sting operation.
 
2013-04-14 05:45:36 PM  

Mugato: It's good to know that there's no crime in NYC so cops have the time to engage in entrapment.


When i was waiting tables, I once saved a choking man's life, only to find out later that the four people sitting in the corner cheering me on were NYPD homicide detectives.
 
2013-04-14 05:49:20 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: quatchi: There's no knowing if the person is picking it up to try and return it to the rightful owners or just taking it cos it's there.

No, that might be false arrest; it's still not entrapment which is defined as what I said above.

According to Wikipedia, that's "conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit".

As lordargent puts it, "For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do. IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse"....

Providing someone with an opportunity to commit a crime is no entrapment; coercing them to commit a crime is.

SilentStrider: an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.

As you cite, that argument would fail. "I wouldn't have stolen Mr Miller's car if he hadn't left it on the road." "Hey, if he didn't want his home burned down, he shouldn't have built it outta wood." "I'm from New York; everybody there knows you keep your wallet in your front pocket unless you are just askin' ta have your pocket picked."


I think you might want to understand the meaning of those two terms, inducing

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inducing

and coerce

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coerced

these are very different concepts and although courts may have been ruling that they are the same they are wrong and most likely go against the intent of the original law.

Words have meaning that's why we have dictionaries, just because cops and judges cannot read them doesn't mean there meaning no longer exists.
 
2013-04-14 05:49:29 PM  

Aar1012: What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?

/DNRTFA


I've found three wallets now, and two university IDs (tied to bank accounts, sometimes) and one license.  3/6 were easy to turn in.  The other times I was running late somewhere and no official to turn it into in sight - so I looked up the office of the university ID and mailed it out.  Mailed the license out.  Looked up the person from the wallet from *his* university ID and took a bus to meet him on another campus.

GOOD TO F--KING KNOW that me going out of my way after I got to class or work on time could get me f--king thrown in jail.,

/I should've written down the names of all those people for future references, apparently
 
2013-04-14 05:49:30 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: The Pope of Manwich Village: Did someone say "Entrapment?"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 480x240]

[static8.depositphotos.com image 425x442]



"Thatsh one great ash"

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-14 05:54:08 PM  

serial_crusher: Get your phone out and video record yourself picking the thing up off the ground and keep it running your whole trip to the police station.

My

phone is just a damn phone.
 
Ral
2013-04-14 05:55:42 PM  
I'm the type of person who would pick up a wallet or a purse with the intent of 1) returning it to the owner, and 2) keeping it out of the hands of an actual thief.  My motive for investigating is a desire to protect the stuff, not steal it.

How can the police possibly prove that someone who picks up a discarded wallet or iPad intends to keep it for themselves?  That's criminalizing basic animal curiosity.
 
2013-04-14 05:57:09 PM  

Mugato: HindiDiscoMonster: The Pope of Manwich Village: Did someone say "Entrapment?"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 480x240]

[static8.depositphotos.com image 425x442]


"Thatsh one great ash"

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x217]


you know... i shudder at the idea of salad tossing activities, but for her, I may have to make an exception...
 
2013-04-14 05:57:51 PM  

Verzio: serial_crusher: Get your phone out and video record yourself picking the thing up off the ground and keep it running your whole trip to the police station.

My phone is just a damn phone.


You should have called it a telephone.  "Phone" is a nickname, and nicknames are for friends.
 
2013-04-14 05:59:00 PM  
Street theater happens all the time and I like to jump into it and make fun cuz I know it's a big fat fakery.

Gang stalkers do it too with some undercovers nearby.

One time some fed was playing guitar with sunglasses on outside a bar, then his buddy comes over to watch me watch him, and I see a pile of undercovers scoping everything at the first table on the patio. I say to the buddy "HEY you recognize this guy from his band?" "What band?" "Johnny Snitch and the Undercovers!" and I continue staring.
The look of uneasiness was priceless.

/targetted individual 15+ years
 
2013-04-14 06:03:59 PM  
Laws already create criminals, there is no reason for the police to bait the trap too.
 
2013-04-14 06:04:27 PM  

albatros183: Words have meaning that's why we have dictionaries, just because cops and judges cannot read them doesn't mean there meaning no longer exists.


And many have very specific meanings in law, whereas their common uises can be rather vague or even contradictory. In law (IANAL), simply providing someone with an opportunity to commit a crime does not count as entrapment; requesting someone commit a crime does.

serial_crusher: Did she commit entrapment?


Think of it this way:

Mom's rule has always been, "None of the children are allowed to eat snacks between 4p and 5p; it'll ruin their dinner." One day, shortly before 4p, Mom

a) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, leaving the cookies unguarded.
b) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, telling the children they may each have -one- cookie.

If the kids eat any cookies and she later punishes them for it:

a) she did not commit entrapment.
b) she committed entrapment.
 
2013-04-14 06:10:00 PM  

RealAmericanHero: Cue people saying this is entrapment using a completely fictional definition they picked up from absolutely nowhere in 5.. 4... whoops, too late.


thats what the thread is like when you DNRTFA, but its more like a sting where the paddy wagon jumped the gun before a crime was committed and decided to press charges anyways.
 
2013-04-14 06:10:07 PM  
I lost my wallet as a teenager, on a bike ride miles from home.  First I knew of it was when my dad handed it to me when I got back.  He said some guy dropped it off at the house using the address off my license.  All contents intact, cool dude was cool.
 By the sound of TFA, the cool guy who found my wallet would have been arrested in this sting because he picked it up and left with it, and never contacted the police.


I can just imagine him getting arrested, and saying "Really, I was going to return it!"  and the cops not believing him for one second.
 
2013-04-14 06:11:08 PM  
So if anyone finds anything that isn't claimed and takes it, that's theft? Where does that leave treasure hunters? Should Bill Paxton in Titanic have been arrested? Well he should have because that movie was terrible but that's not the point. I've gotten drunk and left my wallets in various places before and I wouldn't press charges on whoever picked it up.
 
2013-04-14 06:15:30 PM  
Good to know theyve solved all other crime in nyc
 
2013-04-14 06:16:41 PM  

thamike: Mugato: It's good to know that there's no crime in NYC so cops have the time to engage in entrapment.

When i was waiting tables, I once saved a choking man's life, only to find out later that the four people sitting in the corner cheering me on were NYPD homicide detectives.


Well, they are trained only in dealing with the dead.  What help could they have given?
 
2013-04-14 06:19:20 PM  
If they're trying to tell good people from bad, leaving money on the ground and seeing who takes it isn't really the best way.
 
2013-04-14 06:22:34 PM  

Aar1012: What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?


I've found a drivers license and a credit card on the street.  Took em, then dumped them in the owners mail slot after after work.  Also found a wallet, did the same thing.

Should I have not done that?
 
2013-04-14 06:24:22 PM  
One time I found a purse on a public sidewalk along a strip of bars. No one was around. I figured that some drunk girl had lost it. I took it with me, and I contacted her on Facebook. We met up the next day, and I gave her purse back. But I guess it would have been better if I would have kept on walking and said "not my problem." Better for me anyway... if I lived in NYC.
 
2013-04-14 06:32:40 PM  
Why not shoot the civilian in the head, then drop the weapon on their body?  That's how they do it in Afghanistan.
 
2013-04-14 06:33:00 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Leaving bait =/= entrapment.


I'd disagree, but only narrowly.  I'd say in this case, maybe it wasn't quite entrapment, but it sounds like even given that the 'perps' didn't actually take the bait.  If the police had waited, maybe they would have taken them 'money' from the car.  They didn't let them get that far.

I would say though, that leaving money in a car, even an unlocked car, or even an open car isn't entrapment.  Leaving it on a park bench unattended I would say is.  The difference, I would argue, is in a car the person who spots the money still knows that someone owns that money.  Just seeing money, even if it is 'bait' shouldn't count as entrapment.  Money that doesn't have a clear owner though, that's a lot different.  I've found money a couple times.  If it folds, I always try to see if the owner is nearby and return it.  (I don't worry about a quarter lying on the street, who is going to come back for a quarter?- and I don't worry about a penny, because hell if I'm going to bend over for a penny!)

Then there is this:  I once was walking down the street.  The police had a car pulled over along the side of the road.  They had a couple of young men pulled out of the car and they were going through their pockets.  It was a mildly windy day, and about 10 feet down the road from them on the sidewalk there was a $20.  I'd already walked past the officers.  I picked it up and walked pack.  One of the officer looked at me nervously (I know it's always dangerous to approach an officer in a situation like that.  They are sometimes nervous, but there were 3-4 of them.)

He asked me what I wanted.  I said I'd found a $20.  He asked me what I wanted him to do about it.  I sort of shrugged and said, 'I don't know, can I turn it in as lost money, is it yours or theirs?'

At that point one of the young men said it might be his (the cops were turning out his pockets.  It probably was his.  The cop very confidently turned to the young man and said, 'It's not yours' and turned back to me and said 'keep it.'  I didn't know what else to do.  I wasn't going to argue with a cop over it, so I put it in my pocket and walked away.

Never get in the way of a cop abusing someones rights over $20 unless you have to.  (Although, maybe in retrospect it was all a sting!  Yeah, now I don't feel guilty.  It was a sting and as a reward for doing the right thing they gave me $20.

Nope, not buying it.  Sorry random dude pulled over on the side of the road.
 
2013-04-14 06:33:33 PM  

puddleonfire: Street theater happens all the time and I like to jump into it and make fun cuz I know it's a big fat fakery.

Gang stalkers do it too with some undercovers nearby.

One time some fed was playing guitar with sunglasses on outside a bar, then his buddy comes over to watch me watch him, and I see a pile of undercovers scoping everything at the first table on the patio. I say to the buddy "HEY you recognize this guy from his band?" "What band?" "Johnny Snitch and the Undercovers!" and I continue staring.
The look of uneasiness was priceless.

/targetted individual 15+ years


There was a house across the street from my college dorm that student groups could rent out for small events of 20-30 people. The animal rights club had an animal liberation guy come speak. In my dorm lobby a couple of uniformed university police officers were talking to two undercover city cops who would be sitting in on the meeting. They were both in their 40s, ~250 lbs, and looked like they just got done filming scenes for a Roadhouse remake. Having been to a few seedier places in California they appeared to be trying to infiltrate something more like the Hell's Angels. I'm sure they didn't stick out at all from the skinny hipster kids at an expensive private university that I saw going into that meeting.
 
2013-04-14 06:33:49 PM  

studebaker hoch: If they're trying to tell good people from bad, leaving money on the ground and seeing who takes it isn't really the best way.


They're trying to find probable cause to run a warrants check.
 
2013-04-14 06:35:43 PM  

Theaetetus: fredklein: ArcadianRefugee: Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

Sorry, I missed the part where they picked anything up.

Myers' account in the article differs from the state's account that said she entered the car and took the property, as well as differing from her own statements to the court, where she said that she intended to safeguard the property for the "arrestee".


The only reference to what happened in the PDF you linked to is this:

"Defendant and her daughter are accused of then entering the car and taking the property."

That's it. No evidence it actually happened, just that they were charged with it. Which matches her story:

The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

"Get on the floor? For what?" Myers recalled telling the officers.

The officers took them into custody...


I mean, you do realize that being accused of something doesn't automatically make you guilty of it, Right? Cops accuse people of stuff as an excuse to arrest them all the time. Fark just had an article about a cop arresting a guy for video recording him 'because the cell phone might have been a weapon'. With cops pulling bullshiat like that, I trust I'll be forgiven for not taking them at their word all the time.

The article also seems to imply they peered inside while the cops were still chasing the subject, while the court decision states that they officers had the "arrestee" in custody and then left with him, leaving his car unlocked.

If the 'arrestee' was sufficiently far away, or around a corner, it might not have been clear to her if they were 'in custody' or not at that exact moment,. In fact, the linked article simply says:

When the driver got out and ran, the officers gave chase, yelling, "Stop! Police!" her suit says.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside ...


...with no mention of how long a time it took, or the state of the 'arrestee' at the time they looked in the car.

And, as a matter of fact,the PDF you linked to has the following:

"...defendant was arrested almost immediately. Had some time elapsed, the police would have been able to observe whether defendant left a note on the car... or whether she instead took [the money] with her or tried to use it."

IF they HAD waited to see her actually take it, we wouldn't be discussing this right now, and she'd be in jail. (Actually, probably on probation, but you know what I mean...)
 
2013-04-14 06:39:49 PM  

Candygram4Mongo: So I should stop picking up those nickels I find on the sidewalk?


i291.photobucket.com

I don't have to explain my art to you!
 
2013-04-14 06:42:44 PM  

AxemRed: One time I found a purse on a public sidewalk along a strip of bars. No one was around. I figured that some drunk girl had lost it. I took it with me, and I contacted her on Facebook. We met up the next day, and I gave her purse back. But I guess it would have been better if I would have kept on walking and said "not my problem." Better for me anyway... if I lived in NYC.


Worst "Dear Penthouse" letter ever...
 
2013-04-14 06:44:33 PM  

ArcadianRefugee:
Me too! But then again I was speaking to entrapment, and pointed out that it STILL WOULDN'T BE ENTRAPMENT.


Oh, I agree with you on that. I was just responding to the "person did [pick up the item] on their own" part.
 
2013-04-14 06:45:02 PM  
What ever happened to "finders keepers"? If you found something in a public area that's on the ground, like $5 or even $20, isn't it considered as something you can already take? It's not like you forcefully took it away from its original owner like how a real criminal would do it.

I think there's a difference between going inside somebody's car and taking their stuff and simply finding a lost item in a public area. Although it would be nice if people took that bag of grocery and took it to the police for you to recover, they're not supposed to be obligated to. First, it's very unlikely that you would leave any kind of information in the grocery bag stating that it belongs to you. Whoever finds it wouldn't have any idea. Second, it's not like it's very easy to find a policeman or a police station where you can simply cross the street and deliver the lost items.

Wallets are a different case though because those usually contain data that says whom it belongs to. Still, just because someone has your wallet doesn't immediately mean they're the ones who also took your wallet. What if the thief just threw away the wallet and a "good samaritan" happened to just pick it up in an effort to return it to you or hand it over to the police? Of course, being caught with an empty wallet that doesn't belong to you would immediately cast horrible suspicions about you.

There are certain situations that seems like the best course of action is inaction because of set-ups like this. If you see a wallet and you honestly believe that it's the right thing to return it to the owner, no, don't get involved. You might suddenly get branded as a criminal simply because you picked it up.
 
2013-04-14 06:45:58 PM  

serial_crusher: Get your phone out and video record yourself picking the thing up off the ground and keep it running your whole trip to the police station.


Yeah, but that wouldn't necessarily protect you...I can just see the article/headline now:

[ FAIL ] Dumb: Stealing a wallet. Dumber: Videotaping yourself committing the crime. FARK: Delivering the video evidence right to the police.

Article: Officers questioned Mr. Crusher when they saw him videotaping around the police station and confiscated his cellphone. Once they saw the footage of the theft, he was immediately arrested for larceny and violating a regulation barring photography of government buildings. Crusher claims he was turning the wallet in after finding it on a park bench.
 
2013-04-14 06:46:33 PM  

serial_crusher: SilentStrider: lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.

an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.

couldn't say, a cop killer, make the same argument?  "I couldn't/wouldn't have killed that cop if he wasn't there in my house serving that warrant...."


Maybe if the cop was there serving a warrant specifically because they were sent there to see if they would get shot, you would have a point.
 
2013-04-14 06:50:12 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Mom's rule has always been, "None of the children are allowed to eat snacks between 4p and 5p; it'll ruin their dinner." One day, shortly before 4p, Mom

a) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, leaving the cookies unguarded.
b) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, telling the children they may each have -one- cookie.

If the kids eat any cookies and she later punishes them for it:

a) she did not commit entrapment.
b) she committed entrapment.


A) Unless the kids had permission to eat the cookies at all, they are in the wrong, entrapment or no.
B) as long as they finish eating before 4pm, the kids did nothing wrong. (You did say she left the cookies out "shortly before" 4pm, right? (Same logic applies if she stays outside until after 5pm, and the kids wait until 5:01pm to eat a cookie.)
 
2013-04-14 06:55:33 PM  

fredklein: ArcadianRefugee:
Me too! But then again I was speaking to entrapment, and pointed out that it STILL WOULDN'T BE ENTRAPMENT.

Oh, I agree with you on that. I was just responding to the "person did [pick up the item] on their own" part.


Sorry; was speaking theoretical, rather than to this situation in specific.

In this sit, either they (the ladies) lied or the cops jumped the gun.

fredklein: ArcadianRefugee: Mom's rule has always been, "None of the children are allowed to eat snacks between 4p and 5p; it'll ruin their dinner." One day, shortly before 4p, Mom

a) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, leaving the cookies unguarded.
b) bakes a tray of cookies and puts them on the dining room table to cool while she goes outside the house, telling the children they may each have -one- cookie.

If the kids eat any cookies and she later punishes them for it:

a) she did not commit entrapment.
b) she committed entrapment.

A) Unless the kids had permission to eat the cookies at all, they are in the wrong, entrapment or no.
B) as long as they finish eating before 4pm, the kids did nothing wrong. (You did say she left the cookies out "shortly before" 4pm, right? (Same logic applies if she stays outside until after 5pm, and the kids wait until 5:01pm to eat a cookie.)


Heh. I was meaning "started all this shortly before" but you are right; if she was done before 4p, the kids would have been kid-wise to simply have a cookie-eating contest.
 
2013-04-14 07:02:39 PM  

Karac: Two cars race by you. People get out and start running down the street, leaving one of the cars open. Nobody has normal behavior for that situation because it's not a normal situation. Why wouldn't someone go over check the car for a baby, somebody shot in the back seat, or God only knows what?


Well that's the thing.  I a naturally suspicious person with an honest but shady mind. My instinct would be to stay the fark away from any of that.  But I've noted that a lot of people are just naively earnest, it doesn't cross their mind to do anything wrong, nor that the police would have any other idea.

Conservative: A liberal who's been mugged.
Liberal: A conservative that's been arrested in Chicago.
 
2013-04-14 07:05:51 PM  
Every day I am more and more convinced that I am never going to New York City.
 
2013-04-14 07:09:34 PM  

SH: 10 years ago I found a wallet in the parking lot of the local Kwicky Mart. It had $40ish and the usual stuff. I picked it up, put it in my pocket, bought whatever I went there to buy and went home. I Googled the name on the DL, found a similar name a few neighborhoods over, and called. Nobody answered so I hung up (no message).

I didn't leave it with the cashiers at the Kwicky Mart for obvious reasons. Several hours later I got an anonymous call, the people I called earlier were calling the number on their caller ID. I asked if they had lost a wallet, they answered their son might have. Long story short, he was close enough to walk to my place and claim it, offered me the $40 in it because everything was still there, I declined. my good deed for the week.

So, in NYC I'd be behind bars for this according to how I read this article. At what point does this good deed become a crime? Isn't the real crime here the cops setting up such a ridiculous sting just to make their numbers look good?


If that happened to me, I would insist on meeting in a public place. I wouldn't want people to know where I live. Yeah, I'm paranoid.
 
2013-04-14 07:12:58 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?  It's one thing to leave a car or bike in a high crime area and see if someone tries to openly steal it.  But to put on these performances designed to attract the curiosity of bystanders and then nab them for checking things out?  How can that be legal?

Because the cops didn't give instructions to pick up the item; the person did it on their own.

If a[n undercover] cop said, "Go grab that wallet" or "please take the bag from my car and hide it" then it would be entrapment.

Leaving bait =/= entrapment.


The problem is that they aren't just leaving bait.  They are putting on a performance for the sole purpose of drawing attention to the item and then, based on this article, nabbing anyone who comes close.  While that may not technically fit the definition of entrapment, they are toeing the line about as close as they possibly can.
 
2013-04-14 07:28:43 PM  

Sim Tree: nekom: TexasPeace: Twenty-five years ago, I saw an unattended purse under a park bench downtown.  I watched it for few minutes, and nobody was anywhere around it.  It was an area known for lots of tourists.  I was inclined to just leave it there, but I kept thinking how somebody's vacation might be ruined.  Finally, against my better judgment, I picked it up and walked to the downtown police station, where I turned it in.  It turned out that it belonged to a teenaged tourist, and contained nearly four hundred dollars of her graduation gift money.

I almost didn't get involved.  I didn't want somebody to claim that the 6'5" pony-tailed man had just stolen the purse that he was carrying as he was walking down the city street. I did not want the owner to discover or allege any missing contents in the purse.  What if the purse contained drugs, or a weapon?  Should I open it before turning it in, just to be sure?

Thanks, NYPD, for further discouraging Good Samaritans.

These days, I'd be more worried that cops in such a situation would call in the bomb squad to detonate the `suspicious abandoned package'

This actually happened at a convention I was at, once. Cleared the hotel for an hour. Police/Homeland security apparently thought loose bags were 'suspcious'. It's a bloody convention; absolutly everyone has a swag bag, nincompoops.


Our 'swag bags' must be clear now, for that very reason.

/interesting to see what others value - who needs that many pencils, even if they're 'free'?
 
2013-04-14 07:51:03 PM  
A decade or so ago, I was walking across campus at college.

I saw a cell phone laying in the parking lot.  I investigated a little closer.  It was working, had power and everything.

Nobody around it could belong to, I was the only person in the lot.  I looked through the address book and found an entry named "Mom".

I called it.  I told the woman who answered that I'd found this phone in a parking lot and was wondering how to get it to its rightful owner.

The woman said her son had lost his phone yesterday and had been freaking out trying to find it.  I asked where he was so I could take it back to him.  She told me what dorm he was at, and said she'd call him on his phone in the dorm to tell him to expect me.

I walked across campus, happy I was doing a good deed.  I walked into the dorm, and there was a guy standing there.  He stormed up to me.  As I started to smile and say hello he angrily snapped "Give me back my phone you thief!" as he swiped the phone out of my hands and ran off, darting up the stairs.

Confused, and angry, I turned around and left.  If I was going to be treated like shiat I could have left his phone out there.  Sounds like the NYPD would have arrested me for just picking up the phone to begin with.
 
2013-04-14 07:51:06 PM  
7th Son of a 7th Son : Leave the freepers out of this. ;)

Sorry, I don't speak politics ... I don't even have a politics tab (thanks to adblock) :P

lordargent.com
 
2013-04-14 07:56:27 PM  

Mentat: The problem is that they aren't just leaving bait. They are putting on a performance for the sole purpose of drawing attention to the item and then, based on this article, nabbing anyone who comes close. While that may not technically fit the definition of entrapment, they are toeing the line about as close as they possibly can.


That, actually, is a big (common) complaint with sting operations. Once upon a time it was just an open delivery van left unguarded. Then it became a big "Hey, look at me! I'm leaving my van unguarded!"

In all cases where the cops didn't cross the line, however, the judges have come down against the perps with a simple "I don't care if they did shove your face in the blinking, cherry red button; you still voluntarily pressed it knowing full well you shouldn't have."

encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-14 07:57:57 PM  
It's not entrapment. I love the threads like this - some of you haven't been farkied yet. And no, "hey, just take it and we'll get some beers," isn't entrapment. Hopefully you learned something.

I do think it's a waste of time tho.
 
2013-04-14 08:09:20 PM  
When are we making a NYPD tag?
 
2013-04-14 08:16:15 PM  
cache.ohinternet.com
 
2013-04-14 08:22:41 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: boyd1031: Read the article the lady that was charged did not take anything she just looked in to the vehicle after her daughter asked her motther to come look at this. Neither daughter nor mother touched or took anything but yet charged the mother!

Yeah, read the article. The only reason they didn't take anything was because the police pulled up before they could. Do you really expect me to believe that it's normal behavior for people to go snooping in a car that's been left open and unattended?


So the lady and her daughter committed a thought crime?

You're either a troll or an idiot.
 
2013-04-14 08:36:23 PM  
...may I refer you to the case of 'Finders/Keepers'....

a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-04-14 08:39:05 PM  
What a change from when I was growing up and occasionally an officer friendly would show up at school and the kids were impressed. Thirty years later, I'm telling my son that if he is ever arrested he should say nothing and demand a lawyer, and to call me no matter what. I told him that the cops are not to be trusted and they will arrest anyone for convenience, and will intimidate and lie to obtain a confession.

What a travesty this has become.
 
2013-04-14 08:39:41 PM  

rattchett: So the lady and her daughter committed a thought crime?

You're either a troll or an idiot.


They sure did, they were thinking about stealing shiat but never got the chance. You'll also see a post of mine up there where I said that the judge did the right thing by dismissing the charges.

Oh, and.....

i37.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-14 08:42:06 PM  

Aar1012: What if I take the cash and wallet to an NYPD station and report it as lost?

/DNRTFA


you won't have a chance because the way the sting is set up, a bunch of po-pos will jump out of the bushes and pounce on you the moment they think they have reasonable action of theft and felonious activity.

Also I am wondering isn't this the very definition of entrapment? Most folks, if they see cash laying on a bench would most likely take it.
 
2013-04-14 08:42:20 PM  
blogs-images.forbes.com

Found some money, and returned it?   BETTER DO A REDDIT AMA!
 
2013-04-14 08:42:57 PM  
Simple question for legal experts:

If I find a wallet, what law says I have to return it? I thought abandoned property is fair game; cops for example can root through your trash because it's "abandoned".

Obviously using the ID or the credit cards is illegal. But taking the paper money and throwing the rest in the trash? Why is that illegal?

Might not be nice, but cops aren't there to legislate niceness.
 
2013-04-14 08:49:47 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Simple question for legal experts:


Or a simple Google search: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/personal-property/article7-b.html
 
2013-04-14 08:55:35 PM  

Farxist Marxist: What a change from when I was growing up and occasionally an officer friendly would show up at school and the kids were impressed. Thirty years later, I'm telling my son that if he is ever arrested he should say nothing and demand a lawyer, and to call me no matter what. I told him that the cops are not to be trusted and they will arrest anyone for convenience, and will intimidate and lie to obtain a confession.

What a travesty this has become.


Actually that's basic good advice for everyone, not just your kids.

Always good to help police catch crooks, but the minute you feel you're under suspicion yourself, the only word you should say from then on is "lawyer".
 
2013-04-14 09:05:07 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Well, they are trained only in dealing with the dead. What help could they have given?


I chided them a little when I spotted their shields.  They gave me a massive tip.  That's really all the help I needed.  Yet again, though, homicide detectives dress and act exactly like they do on television.
 
2013-04-14 09:28:49 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: If I find a wallet, what law says I have to return it? I thought abandoned property is fair game; cops for example can root through your trash because it's "abandoned".


There's a difference between lost property and abandoned property.

Did somebody intentionally leave a wallet containing cash, credit cards, and ID documents in the park because they meant to relinquish their ownership of those items?  Probably not.
 
2013-04-14 09:47:59 PM  

Silverstaff: A decade or so ago, I was walking across campus at college.

I saw a cell phone laying in the parking lot.  I investigated a little closer.  It was working, had power and everything.

Nobody around it could belong to, I was the only person in the lot.  I looked through the address book and found an entry named "Mom".

I called it.  I told the woman who answered that I'd found this phone in a parking lot and was wondering how to get it to its rightful owner.

The woman said her son had lost his phone yesterday and had been freaking out trying to find it.  I asked where he was so I could take it back to him.  She told me what dorm he was at, and said she'd call him on his phone in the dorm to tell him to expect me.

I walked across campus, happy I was doing a good deed.  I walked into the dorm, and there was a guy standing there.  He stormed up to me.  As I started to smile and say hello he angrily snapped "Give me back my phone you thief!" as he swiped the phone out of my hands and ran off, darting up the stairs.

Confused, and angry, I turned around and left.  If I was going to be treated like shiat I could have left his phone out there.  Sounds like the NYPD would have arrested me for just picking up the phone to begin with.


He was doing what he could to avoid admitting he'd done a dumb thing  like lose his phone.  I can just hear the conversation with Mom.

"Honey, a man's bringing by the phone you lost.  Try to be more careful in the future; that phone cost us a lot."

"I DIDN"T LOSE IT!  IT WAS STOLEN!"
 
2013-04-14 09:56:40 PM  

fredklein: The only reference to what happened in the PDF you linked to is this:

"Defendant and her daughter are accused of then entering the car and taking the property."

That's it. No evidence it actually happened, just that they were charged with it.


Since it's in the decision, and it's not summary judgement for lack of evidence that that happened, and there's no mention of perjury or other charges against the prosecutor or the cops, then I'mma go out on a limb and assume they didn't lie to the judge.
Fred, you don't pursue charges for three years unless you have at least  some evidence, even if it's not enough to convict.

Which matches her story:

The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.

It doesn't match her story at all. The story in the opinion is that the girl and her mom entered the car. Not just stood there.


I mean, you do realize that being accused of something doesn't automatically make you guilty of it, Right?

And you realize that not being convicted of something doesn't automatically mean that the cops lied about every element? Like, say you get arrested for burglary at midnight, and you get acquitted... It doesn't suddenly mean that it was daytime.

If the 'arrestee' was sufficiently far away, or around a corner, it might not have been clear to her if they were 'in custody' or not at that exact moment,. In fact, the linked article simply says:

When the driver got out and ran, the officers gave chase, yelling, "Stop! Police!" her suit says.

Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside ...


...with no mention of how long a time it took, or the state of the 'arrestee' at the time they looked in the car.


Yes, so there's one account with "no mention of how long a time" and one account with an accounting of the order of events. The detailed one seems a bit more credible than the vague one, no?

And, as a matter of fact,the PDF you linked to has the following:

"...defendant was arrested almost immediately. Had some time elapsed, the police would have been able to observe whether defendant left a note on the car... or whether she instead took [the money] with her or tried to use it."

IF they HAD waited to see her actually take it, we wouldn't be discussing this right now, and she'd be in jail. (Actually, probably on probation, but you know what I mean...)


Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again. The defendant was arrested almost immediately upon her  entering the car and taking the property. As the opinion notes, there wasn't enough time to see if the defendant would leave a note behind, so they didn't have evidence to show that she took the property  with the intent to keep it, just that she took the property. But that doesn't mean that she never entered the car period or that Sarah Palin is automatically President.

In fact, her defense according to the opinion was that she took the property with the intent to keep it safe for the arrestee... Are you calling her a liar, Fred, and saying that she never took the property? You're accusing her of felony perjury, without any evidence.
 
2013-04-14 09:59:47 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Simple question for legal experts:

Or a simple Google search: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/personal-property/article7-b.html


See, that's why I can't believe they pull these stings. From that law:
§ 252.1. ... any person who finds lost property of the value of twenty dollars or more or comes into possession of property of the value of twenty dollars or more with knowledge that it is lost property or found property shall, within ten days after the finding or acquisition of possession thereof, either return it to the owner or report such finding or acquisition of possession and deposit such property in a police station or police headquarters of the city where the finding occurred or possession was acquired...How can you arrest someone immediately, when they've got 10 full days to turn it in?
 
2013-04-14 10:04:28 PM  
Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.
 
2013-04-14 10:59:30 PM  

Theaetetus: See, that's why I can't believe they pull these stings. From that law:


Yeah. Like I said way upstream, the courts in NY have dealt with this kind of thing before and repeatedly smacked the cops for only knowing enough of the law to be a nuisance. Yet it happens over and over and over....
 
2013-04-14 11:17:50 PM  

Mugato: Isn't there a precedent here in the case of Finders vs Keepers?


Finders v Losers
 
2013-04-14 11:23:36 PM  

Great Janitor: Years ago, when I was a senior in high school I found a wallet in the hallway.  There were some personal notes that were folded up, no cash but a drivers license.  The license belonged to a student in the class that I was walking to next.  So I went to class with the wallet.  She was in a panic and was looking for it.  I stopped her and handed it to her, told her exactly where I found it.  The teacher stopped her and told her to tell me thank you.

She turned me into the principal for stealing the cash that was already taken from the wallet before I even found it.  Now, my friend was with me when I found it so he knows that the cash (assuming that there was any) was not even there.  So I learned the lesson that no good deed ever goes unpunished and to never return a missing wallet.

Hell, I don't even return lost cellphones.  Of the two I found, one I texted all the female contacts and asked for pic of their boobs, including the one labeled 'mom'.  His daughter was a bit concerned.  To his wife, I just texted her a notice about knocking up a 16 y.o. girl.  I then tossed it into a lake.  Of the other, I just texted one of those text here to donate $10 to this charity.  I did it until the battery ran down.


Texting all the females for boobies pics was funny but texting to donate someone else's money is theft. The line you crossed was way back there next to the boobies texts.
 
2013-04-14 11:29:17 PM  

OregonVet: It's not entrapment. I love the threads like this - some of you haven't been farkied yet. And no, "hey, just take it and we'll get some beers," isn't entrapment. Hopefully you learned something.

I do think it's a waste of time tho.


I did learn something.  Don't pick up the wallet.
 
2013-04-14 11:37:09 PM  

red5ish: "No fines, no probation, no thirty days in jail. It's the hook. The hook for stealing, for murder, for arson, for treason, for rape, for being a peeping Tom. Break a law - any damn law at all - and it's the hook. Everybody can understand that, and San Lorenzo is the best-behaved country in the world."


Ice 9 would be a pretty effective deterrent as well.
 
2013-04-14 11:59:45 PM  
Why would you never get the cops involved in a lost wallet?  Last time I found one, I pulled out one of the credit cards, called the number on the back for card member services and said "Hey I found the wallet of one of your customers, card ID ####...., can you call them and pass my phone number on?".  The owner called me and told gave me their local address (out of state ID) and asked me to next day mail it.  I paid for it with the money in the wallet and that was that.

That's about a million times easier for all parties involves than dealing with the police.  I found the wallet in Ann Arbor, so I would have to deal with the fact that parking is shiat by City Hall, and then the other person has to drive up from Jackson to get it and deal with the same.  Whereas thanks to the nice people at USPS the entire thing took about 5 minutes on my end.

/unless of course there is blood or it looks like the wallet was dumped, then I'd call the cops before I even touched it (if I noticed)
 
2013-04-15 12:08:04 AM  
Oh well, just another day in Bloombergistan.
 
2013-04-15 01:12:26 AM  
So, don't bother being a good samaritan in NY, got it.

What happens when the arrest from these stings drop off because people won't pick up the bait? Let me guess they'll arrest you for walking past their sting and NOT being a good samaritan.
 
2013-04-15 01:53:48 AM  
As long as US Prisons are run for profit by big corps, then expect to see a steady stream of black people be arrested for drugs and petty theft
 
2013-04-15 02:41:31 AM  
I once found a credit card just sitting in the middle of a drug store parking lot while I was on my lunch breakAfter checking inside to see if the owner was still around, I took it back with me and promptly called the credit card company from my desk to report it lost and/or stolen before tossing it in the shredder.

It didn't even occur to me to bother the cops around the corner with it. I mean, why should it? Police aren't actually held to any higher standard than anyone else. I'd probably get the same result as if I just handed it to the cashier at the drug store to deal with. At least with the cashiers, I wouldn't get glared at for bothering them.
 
2013-04-15 02:49:31 AM  

the ha ha guy: I alone am best: Maybe you should steal shiat from peoples cars retard.


Try reading TFA:

"Myers' daughter, seeing that the driver left the car door open, went over and peered inside to see personal items that included what looked like a bundle of cash - in reality, a dollar bill wrapped around pieces of newspaper. The girl had called her mother over when another set of police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground, according to Myers' account.
"Get on the floor? For what?" Myers recalled telling the officers.
The officers took them into custody, even though they never touched anything inside the car, the suit says. While entering a stationhouse in handcuffs, Myers spotted the driver of the car standing outside, smoking a cigarette. It dawned on her that he was an undercover with a starring role in the sting - a suspicion supported by the court ruling.
"I thought I was in 'The Twilight Zone,'" she said.
The girl ultimately wasn't charged. But her mother spent more than two years fighting charges of petty larceny and possession of stolen property."

Stealing usually implies physically taking the item in question, not just glancing in its general direction.


Yeah, but she's black.
 
2013-04-15 03:01:27 AM  
Cool, they do something like this in Iraq. Leaving a weapon just lying around and anyone who picks it up must be an enemy combatant who is then snipered.
 
2013-04-15 04:08:02 AM  

Silverstaff: I walked across campus, happy I was doing a good deed.  I walked into the dorm, and there was a guy standing there.  He stormed up to me.  As I started to smile and say hello he angrily snapped "Give me back my phone you thief!" as he swiped the phone out of my hands and ran off, darting up the stairs.


I would have broken the phone in two and hurled it at him while yelling "Your welcome".

I admire your restraint.
 
2013-04-15 07:13:55 AM  

Theaetetus: Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.


Even prosecuting under that section raises a question: who spends three years prosecuting someone for a misdemeaner?
 
2013-04-15 08:34:47 AM  

serial_crusher: serial_crusher: SilentStrider: lordargent: Mentat: How the fark is this not entrapment?

For it to be entrapment, you have to be coerced into doing something you were not naturally inclined to do.

IE, there would basically have to be an undercover cop telling you to "take the purse", then you would say "no", and then the cop would say "come on dude, nobody is looking, take the purse and let's get some beers", and you finally cave in.

an argument could be made, not that I'm saying it would be successful in court (but it should be, imho), that if the police didn't put the wallet there, there would be no reason for you to commit a crime.

couldn't say, a cop killer, make the same argument?  "I couldn't/wouldn't have killed that cop if he wasn't there in my house serving that warrant...."

I guess that analogy falls short in that the wallet was placed there to test whether or not you'd steal it, whereas to cop serving the warrant wasn't just there to see whether or not you'd murder him.  So I'll head that argument off with a modified example:  There's a known serial rapist on the loose who targets a very specific type of woman, so the cops set up a sting operation with an undercover cop who meets the profile.  Suspect attempts to rape the cop, and she arrests him.  Did she commit entrapment?


Are you arguing with yourself?
 
2013-04-15 08:36:40 AM  
The irony is that if the NYPD catches you carrying around a large amount of your own cash, they will steal it from you.
 
zeg
2013-04-15 10:19:01 AM  

Theaetetus: Ah... They probably use this bit:

3. Except as provided in subdivision four of this section, any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Probably, the police march up afterwards, demand the item, and if the person hesitates, says that they're refusing to turn it over. I don't believe that's sufficient.

There's also a later exception about if this occurs in a transportation building that they probably claim applies, and the article mentions that they pull these stings on the trains, but I read it as still allowing the 10 day period.


In the specific case here, it'd be different from "found" property because the property was inside a vehicle. If (a big if) it's true that they removed an item from a vehicle and left the scene with it, I would be entirely content with their being arrested. That is not consistent with making a good faith effort to protect someone's property. A reasonable person would close the door and contact the police (because there's an abandoned vehicle). Also, since it seems this was just after seeing someone exit the vehicle and run off, rooting around is even less sensible.

But for the police's action to be reasonable in either case, they would need to observe the suspects leaving with the property. It would then be reasonable to charge them with either theft (for removing an item from a vehicle) or perhaps something along the lines of obstructing justice (whatever the appropriate term would be for interfering with the scene of a crime since they observed an apparent crime in progress, although that gets murky since no actual crime was in progress).

In any case, however, this is absolutely 100% not "entrapment." It might be a bad idea, it might be unethical, it might be illegal, but it is simply not entrapment as a matter of definition. Entrapment requires more than presenting an opportunity to commit a crime, because in that case the suspect independently decided to commit the crime.

e.g.,http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/entrapment: "Generally, the defense is not available if the officer merely created an opportunity for the commission of the crime by a person already planning or willing to commit it."

(Note: I am not at all arguing that the police were justified in this particular case, as I said above it's not at all clear that what they observed constituted reasonable grounds for concluding a crime had been committed. But the problem with that does not stem from their having placed bait.)
 
zeg
2013-04-15 10:20:55 AM  
(btw, Theaetetus, the bit about entrapment was not directed at you.)
 
2013-04-15 11:56:42 AM  
NYPD routinely scoops up groups of kids and hold them to see if they have warrants.  I thought this was bullshiat until I was muscled into a paddy wagon (I look young for my age) and questioned.  It wasn't until I pulled out a corporate ID before they let me go.  When I protested the treatment we all received, I was asked if I wanted to be arrested for possesion, even though I was clean...at the time?
 
SH
2013-04-15 12:53:32 PM  

Kiwimann: SH: 10 years ago I found a wallet in the parking lot of the local Kwicky Mart. It had $40ish and the usual stuff....

I didn't leave it with the cashiers at the Kwicky Mart for obvious reasons.

What's the "obvious" reason?


Because the guy would have never gotten his $40 cash that was in the wallet back you dense moron.
 
2013-04-15 02:21:27 PM  

Theaetetus: It doesn't match her story at all. The story in the opinion is that the girl and her mom entered the car. Not just stood there.


Then if would have said "Pulled them from the car and forced them to the ground..." or "Ordered them from the car, and forced them to the ground..."

But it just says "police officers suddenly pulled up in a van and forced them to the ground".

And you realize that not being convicted of something doesn't automatically mean that the cops lied about every element? Like, say you get arrested for burglary at midnight, and you get acquitted... It doesn't suddenly mean that it was daytime.

But it DOES mean I didn't commit the burglary.

Yes, so there's one account with "no mention of how long a time" and one account with an accounting of the order of events. The detailed one seems a bit more credible than the vague one, no?

On that particular issue, perhaps. Fine. I'll concede- when the cops arrested her for looking in the car, the 'arrestee' was already in 'custody'. What's your point?

Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again. The defendant was arrested almost immediately upon her entering the car and taking the property.

"...defendant was arrested almost immediately. Had some time elapsed, the police would have been able to observe whether defendant left a note on the car... or whether she instead took [the money] with her or tried to use it."

Had they waited, they could have seen if she would have taken the money. This means, since they did not wait, they did NOT see if she would have taken the money.

Talk about lack of reading comprehension.

(Oh, and "leave a note "on" the car. If she was IN the car, then she'd have left any note "IN" the car. The only way to leave a note "ON" the car is to be outside the car. Thus, implying she was outside the car.)

As the opinion notes, there wasn't enough time to see if the defendant would leave a note behind, so they didn't have evidence to show that she took the property with the intent to keep it, just that she took the property.

They didn't have any evidence that she took it AT ALL. Else, we would be hearing about it. "Police showed a video of her stuffing the cash into her pocket..." "A police officer testified that he saw her hide the wad of bills in her bra, and signaled for them to move in and arrest her..."

But that doesn't mean that she never entered the car

Didn't know entering a car was illegal. What'd they charge her with? Trespassing??

In fact, her defense according to the opinion was that she took the property with the intent to keep it safe for the arrestee...

"The defense contends that Ms. Meyers intended to safeguard the property for the 'arrestee'..."

I see nothing there about "taking" the property- she very well could have looked in the car, said "Hey, there's some valuables here, let's close and lock the car door to keep it safe..." and then been arrested.

safeguard- a precautionary measure, stipulation, or device

Locking the door would be a 'protective measure' to safeguard the arrestee's valuables, and would not involve her taking them in any way.
 
2013-04-15 11:03:15 PM  

six-n-tombstone: What happens when the arrest from these stings drop off because people won't pick up the bait?


Well, having rid society of people who steal wallets they can start putting out bait whores to catch all the rapists.
 
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