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(Bloomberg)   Dr. Luke Nichter, Ph.D of Philosophy and his wife, Jennifer, wonder how they are going to buy a house with a combined $245,000 in student loan debt with payments of $2,500 a month   (bloomberg.com ) divider line 156
    More: Dumbass, Dr. Luke Nichter, Ph.D, jennifer, American Dream, student loans, Diane Swonk, New York Federal Reserve, Bowling Green State University, tax deductions  
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5092 clicks; posted to Business » on 13 Apr 2013 at 3:40 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-13 12:53:54 PM  
In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer
 
2013-04-13 01:22:48 PM  
Subtard misses the point that his equivalent in countries like India have 0 dollars in student loan debt.
 
2013-04-13 01:27:25 PM  
i.imgur.com

Getting a PhD is required for some job descriptions, like being a history professor at UT Austin. What's wrong with that?
 
2013-04-13 01:58:04 PM  

Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer


True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."
 
2013-04-13 02:34:10 PM  
They can do what I did - take responsibility for their bad financial decisions, find ways to pay off the debt early, and save the fark up.  But then that's hard, and it's not nearly so satisfying as a government bailout.
 
2013-04-13 02:38:33 PM  
He could always rent or is that beneath him?
 
2013-04-13 02:44:53 PM  
*reads thread*

/backs out slowly
 
2013-04-13 02:52:56 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Subtard misses the point that his equivalent in countries like India have 0 dollars in student loan debt.


Yes, I speak to them every time I have an issue with PayPal.

/proficient of giving  your service today
 
2013-04-13 03:00:01 PM  

Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."


Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.
 
2013-04-13 03:06:08 PM  
Join a non-profit or work for the government.  You get income based repayment plus your debt will be forgiven after 120 payments.  You're welcome.
 
2013-04-13 03:11:23 PM  

GAT_00: Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."

Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


I'd rather people get degrees in English, History, and Philosophy than Business - how many English majors wrecked our economy?
 
2013-04-13 03:23:10 PM  

GAT_00: Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


i1123.photobucket.com

 
2013-04-13 03:53:14 PM  

Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."


As he works for Texas A&M, he is a public employee and thus his salary is public record. He made $42,283 as an Assistant Professor. Spending $125,000 on a degree that pays a little over $42,000 isn't smart.
 
2013-04-13 03:58:55 PM  

GAT_00: Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."

Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


And people who get scholarships, people who do the basic work at a community college and transfer to a 4-year school for the major work, people who don't need a formalized education to become an expert in their art, people who serve in the military and qualify for the GI Bill, people who go to school part time while working, people who, well, you get the idea.  People who aren't idiots.
 
2013-04-13 04:00:16 PM  
The problem starts when your idea of a career fallback plan is "Jeopardy!" contestant.
 
2013-04-13 04:00:55 PM  

dustman81: As he works for Texas A&M, he is a public employee and thus his salary is public record. He made $42,283 as an Assistant Professor. Spending $125,000 on a degree that pays a little over $42,000 isn't smart.


At least his parking pass will allow him to legally park in any handicapped space in the entire state.
 
2013-04-13 04:02:40 PM  
What he means by "getting a mortgage" is "getting a mortgage on a house that's about twice as expensive as the one he really needs."
On the other hand, he and his spouse could get a much less expensive "starter home" and try to get a better one in about five years, once he gets those student loans paid down a bit.
 
2013-04-13 04:03:35 PM  

EmmaLou: Join a non-profit or work for the government. You get income based repayment plus your debt will be forgiven after 120 payments. You're welcome.


My advice: be born into a wealthy family... the odds are about as good as getting a job with the federal government during sequestration.
 
2013-04-13 04:03:39 PM  

GAT_00: Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."

Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


Here we are, quibbling about the symptoms of a larger problem. It's like doctors arguing about how to treat the pain and not caring about the cancer.

Two ways we can solve the problem of massive student debt:

1) Schools shouldn't be run as though they were for-profit institutions. I started college in 2004 and graduated 2010. My starting tuition was just over $5400, and my last year's was about $6500. Both numbers are a pittance compared to some places, but that's not the point. The real problem was that over that six year period the tuition went up over 20%. There were two major causes. The first was a statewide (republican) budgeting decision that slashed higher education funding. The second is that a new president started in 2004, and one of her core contributions was restructuring the university to be more efficient while hiring consultants to determine how much money they could charge students. The result is that student services went down while tuitions went up.

2) Related to reason number one, we need to make education, and even higher education, a national priority. Our best and brightest kids should be able to study for free, and everyone else should be guaranteed an education at a reasonable price (if I had it my way, $5,000 or so dollars in tuition per year).

Here in 2013, my college from above costs about $7,300 per year in tuition+fees, throw in books and it's easily $7,700 a year to go there now. A 43% increase in nine years.
 
2013-04-13 04:19:51 PM  

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x422]

Getting a PhD is required for some job descriptions, like being a history professor at UT Austin. What's wrong with that?


I dislike your comment only for the fact that you posted a picture from the atrocities that are the Zelda CD-i games
 
2013-04-13 04:26:02 PM  
I have no sympathy.

He made the decision. Let him live with the consequences.

But then he probably won't; Obama is already working on a way to 'forgive' student loan debt.
 
2013-04-13 04:26:13 PM  
In before the  inevitable "Nichter, Please" commentary...
 
2013-04-13 04:26:57 PM  
It isn't a good sign for the economy when people that graduated from college are spending half of their salary paying off their education instead of putting it into the economy. And this is a growing trend as even the price of affordable tuition is rising and salaries are staying flat.
 
2013-04-13 04:33:15 PM  
 
2013-04-13 04:44:20 PM  

Yes please: I'm assuming his wife works, right?  I couldn't find anything in the article about that.  And do you know what $245000 buys you in College Station?

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2433-Newark-Cir_Col le ge-Station_TX_77845_M70783-66247?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj

With $25k to spend on furnishing it.  But no one should have to live in such squalor.

If you're willing to put the standard 20% down, you can live in one of these dumps:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/8409-Wildewood-Cir_ Co llege-Station_TX_77845_M74020-43733?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/9308-Amberwood-Ct_C ol lege-Station_TX_77845_M78011-75092?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2710-Horse-Haven-Ln _C ollege-Station_TX_77845_M89459-54305?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj


Oooooooh that 3rd one with all the trees out front looks gorgeous.  $294K?  I'm suspicious.
 
2013-04-13 04:46:00 PM  
I struggle with sympathy for these people. 
I have a history degree from a state school. I was not suited for engineering. So I understand the desire to study something you're passionate about even if it's not going to lead to stellar job. I couldn't have imagined studying anything else in college. I tried a few majors but history was the only thing I loved enough to spend my time doing.
Ultimately, I'm very lucky that my parents paid for school. We're not rich by any means, just some things worked out in my favor. My sister went to the Naval Academy, which is free, and that helped out a lot. My parents also pay my loans because they're already saddled with so much debt, they don't care if they add a little more. Which is good for me, sort of.
I also joined the Army and got to go to law school on the GI Bill. Meaning I have no debt. My wife went a state school for engineering and also has no debt so we were able to afford a very nice house because we have no credit card or loan debt. 
I don't understand why they need a $250k house. I looked at a bunch of other houses in College Station and it seems like you do very well for $150k and even a little less. Maybe your appliances are older, but I bet the dishwasher still washes dishes. Maybe you don't have granite counters but those are a luxury not a necessity. And the mortgage on $150k is only slightly more than what they probably pay in rent. That's where I struggle. I'm okay with making financial decisions that may not make sense to others, but try and live within your means if you're going to do that. And don't complain when other people have something and you don't.
 
2013-04-13 04:46:24 PM  
Maybe Dr. Nichter should consider work in .

public service for a few years
 
2013-04-13 04:48:37 PM  

Kuoxasar: Yes please: I'm assuming his wife works, right?  I couldn't find anything in the article about that.  And do you know what $245000 buys you in College Station?

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2433-Newark-Cir_Col le ge-Station_TX_77845_M70783-66247?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj

With $25k to spend on furnishing it.  But no one should have to live in such squalor.

If you're willing to put the standard 20% down, you can live in one of these dumps:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/8409-Wildewood-Cir_ Co llege-Station_TX_77845_M74020-43733?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/9308-Amberwood-Ct_C ol lege-Station_TX_77845_M78011-75092?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2710-Horse-Haven-Ln _C ollege-Station_TX_77845_M89459-54305?source=web#axzz2QNSD3oWj

Oooooooh that 3rd one with all the trees out front looks gorgeous.  $294K?  I'm suspicious.



Oh,yeah, it's clearly haunted.  But any realtor will tell you that when you're trying to work within a budget you have to make sacrifices.  In this case, a young goat on the summer solstice.
 
2013-04-13 04:48:49 PM  
I went to college for a bachelor's, and was able to pay down my loans within a year and a half of getting my current job (third or fourth overall, first after college).  I figured I was lucky and smart, because I was able to find a shiatty studio apartment within my means (basically a 8 by 10 cinderblock cube with a shower and a stove) and I didn't own a car.

My office then hired a kid who had just barely graduated high school after failing some key classes, just because they had known him as an intern.  They pay the kid almost as much as they pay me, so he has no incentive to throw that away by leaving for college.  Plus he lives with his wealthy business owner parents.

So I guess the lesson I've learned is that education is a sucker's game - just make friends with some small business owners and get them to take pity on you.
 
2013-04-13 04:49:52 PM  
2) Related to reason number one, we need to make education, and even higher education, a national priority. Our best and brightest kids should be able to study for free, and everyone else should be guaranteed an education at a reasonable price (if I had it my way, $5,000 or so dollars in tuition per year).

I watched a TED talk recently where the speaker explained that the problem with our education system today is that we're creating the expectation that everybody needs a college degree to succeed, when there are plenty of jobs out there that shouldn't require a college education.

What I see is that schools are becoming degree factories, because that is profitable, and then the students graduate to find out that everybody else has a degree now too.  So there isn't any differentiator for them and they struggle to compete for the few jobs the many are applying for.

Everybody is guaranteed a free education.  You can get a high school diploma for free.  The problem is that we're starting to require a higher education for more and more jobs.

And let's face it, going to school for a degree in philosophy is probably not a good financial decision.  There's nothing wrong with it if you have a passion for it and a plan to support yourself with a reasonable chance of success, but otherwise don't do what most people know in advance is likely to leave you eating cat food and then complain about the rising cost of Purina One...
 
2013-04-13 04:50:11 PM  
Every time I see one of these threads I sit down and do the math.  Then I get depressed, give up studying for the day and start drinking instead.  Thanks Fark.
 
2013-04-13 04:52:35 PM  

dustman81: As he works for Texas A&M, he is a public employee and thus his salary is public record. He made $42,283 as an Assistant Professor. Spending $125,000 on a degree that pays a little over $42,000 isn't smart.


It also suggests that they don't think very highly of him. I started out as a professor at a comparable Texas university at 40k (which became 50k when I taught in the summer) and that was 16 years ago.

Frankly, the guy doesn't seem to know how to play the university game very well. He couldn't get a job at his university as a grad student to get free tuition? He couldn't get a scholarship? He couldn't take a year off paying tuition while he did "fieldwork?" There are many tricks to get free or discounted tuition and this guy doesn't appear to be familiar with any of them.
 
2013-04-13 04:56:15 PM  

BigLuca: Every time I see one of these threads I sit down and do the math.  Then I get depressed, give up studying for the day and start drinking instead.  Thanks Fark.


Well, you've got company, cause that's what I'm about to do.

/15 years experience, suddenly every job now requires a BS
//Thanks HR departments!
///Somebody kill me now.
 
2013-04-13 04:57:39 PM  

Yes please: Oh,yeah, it's clearly haunted. But any realtor will tell you that when you're trying to work within a budget you have to make sacrifices. In this case, a young goat on the summer solstice.


A young goat, that's all?  Do you have any idea how many animals and virgins are sacrificed to the Gods of Brooklyn Loft Space every year?

Everything is cheaper in the South.
 
2013-04-13 05:00:34 PM  

buzzcut73: BigLuca: Every time I see one of these threads I sit down and do the math.  Then I get depressed, give up studying for the day and start drinking instead.  Thanks Fark.

Well, you've got company, cause that's what I'm about to do.

/15 years experience, suddenly every job now requires a BS
//Thanks HR departments!
///Somebody kill me now.


That's not the HR department making that decision. The HR departments only enforces the policies.
 
2013-04-13 05:06:27 PM  

GAT_00: Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."

Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


So the arts are practiced by those who have time and/or talent for them.  What's the problem?
 
2013-04-13 05:08:22 PM  
Setting aside the degrees this guy has student loans should be dischargeable via bankruptcy, perhaps 10 years after completion of the degree and  valid attempt to pay on the loan has been made and genuine economic hardship can be proved.

that said student loans should have a very low interest rate less than 5% and perhaps as low as 2% .
 
2013-04-13 05:08:52 PM  

cirby: What he means by "getting a mortgage" is "getting a mortgage on a house that's about twice as expensive as the one he really needs."
On the other hand, he and his spouse could get a much less expensive "starter home" and try to get a better one in about five years, once he gets those student loans paid down a bit.


Starter homes are too small for parties with students.  There are appearances to be maintained.
 
2013-04-13 05:13:34 PM  

dustman81: Sgt Otter: Aar1012: In before the 'Should have studied engineering' crowd arrives.

/Not everyone wants to be an engineer

True, but if you're going to take on an education that requires exorbitant tuition, you should have a plan to pay for it other than, "taking on massive student loans on a middle class salary."

As he works for Texas A&M, he is a public employee and thus his salary is public record. He made $42,283 as an Assistant Professor. Spending $125,000 on a degree that pays a little over $42,000 isn't smart.


I'm pretty much beside myself at this point.  Even without student loan debt, he probably still wouldn't qualify for that loan he wants.  Ten years ago he probably would have, and when he doubtlessly defaulted on it, everyone would be crying out that it was a "predatory loan" and the bank never should have given it to him.  After taking out the student loan payments, he makes $28k yearly.  Who in the world would ever suggest taking out a mortgage that's nine times your salary?  My head's just spinning.  I didn't watch the video.  At any point does he say "I didn't get a PhD in history to live within my means, you know what I'm saying?"
 
2013-04-13 05:13:37 PM  
FTA: "When I started college, when I was 18, the economy was good," said Roca-Picket, 29, who is expecting her first child, a son, in July. "We didn't know that after we graduated it was going to turn into the worst economy since the Great Depression."

Farking THIS. On average it takes about five years to graduate from college, longer if you're working part or full time, because you can't always get the courses you need when you need them.
Many things can change in five years, and the sh*tball that Bush started downhill in his first term had picked up a whole lot of speed by 2007-2008, when many of these people graduated.
I went back to school to get my bachelors (graduated with an AA in 2008) because the job market was so f*cked up that employers wouldn't even look at anyone in my field (and many others) who didn't carry at least a BS or BA. They didn't have to, because there were plenty of people with those degrees out of work, a condition which still persists today
 
2013-04-13 05:16:26 PM  

GAT_00: Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.


Here's how you get access to most of the philosophy that's out there:
1. Buy a Kindle for $200,
2. Download all the works by Marx, Decartes, Aristotle, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Edmund Burke, Heidigger, Rousseau, Hayek, Wittgenstein and so forth. You'll have to pay for the Hayek as it's still in copyright, but the rest aren't.
3. Read them.
4. Find some forums out there on the internet where people discuss philosophy.
5. Learn, read some more.

The original point of universities was to be a place where people went because books were too expensive. In the time before printing, they were so expensive, it was cheaper to send your kid to Oxford to hear someone read a book, than to buy that book. It's why some UK universities have people with the title of "reader" - because that's what they used to do.
 
2013-04-13 05:18:41 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: He could always rent or is that beneath him?


For the rest of his life? Because that is what they may have to do, which, as it explains in TFA, stalls the economy - not to mention their lives. People buy sh*t when they have a house, and that buying sh*t provides jobs for other people who also buy sh*t and so on. That's how it's supposed to work.
 
2013-04-13 05:21:57 PM  

Ivandrago: I struggle with sympathy for these people. 
I have a history degree from a state school. I was not suited for engineering. So I understand the desire to study something you're passionate about even if it's not going to lead to stellar job. I couldn't have imagined studying anything else in college. I tried a few majors but history was the only thing I loved enough to spend my time doing.
Ultimately, I'm very lucky that my parents paid for school. We're not rich by any means, just some things worked out in my favor. My sister went to the Naval Academy, which is free, and that helped out a lot. My parents also pay my loans because they're already saddled with so much debt, they don't care if they add a little more. Which is good for me, sort of.
I also joined the Army and got to go to law school on the GI Bill. Meaning I have no debt. My wife went a state school for engineering and also has no debt so we were able to afford a very nice house because we have no credit card or loan debt. 
I don't understand why they need a $250k house. I looked at a bunch of other houses in College Station and it seems like you do very well for $150k and even a little less. Maybe your appliances are older, but I bet the dishwasher still washes dishes. Maybe you don't have granite counters but those are a luxury not a necessity. And the mortgage on $150k is only slightly more than what they probably pay in rent. That's where I struggle. I'm okay with making financial decisions that may not make sense to others, but try and live within your means if you're going to do that. And don't complain when other people have something and you don't.


Tear downs (actually condemned) cost 200k+ where I live.
 
2013-04-13 05:22:12 PM  
Banks - The NEW Mafia
 
2013-04-13 05:24:19 PM  
Keep in mind all that student debt isn't just tuition and books.  When I was going to school a lot of my peers were taking out student loans so that they could afford to go out more, buy nice clothes or even cars and motorcycles.  Back then, student loans were an easy source of instant-gratification.  You could fill out a little paperwork and get a big check every semester to blow on whatever you wanted.

My parents put everything I got when I was a kid into a savings account ($5 from Aunt Irene or $20 from Grandma, etc).  When I turned 16, I started working a part-time job and they made me put at least half of every check into the savings account.  By the time I went to college, I had a pretty good chunk of change to help me pay the bills.

Still, I worked part-time in college to help make ends meet.  Every summer, I'd work at the same place I got a job when I turned 16 and at least one other job.  One summer, I worked three jobs (one full-time 3rd shift factory job, about 30 hours a week at another starting in the morning and weekends at a local radio station).  That whole summer is sort of a blur, but I banked a small fortune to put toward my education and living expenses.

I'm not saying I bootstrapped my whole education.  I tested very well so I was able to get scholarships to help put the very expensive private university I attended into reach, and my parents sacrificed to help me out when they could.  But in the end, I managed to get through four years of private college without needing to take any loans.

I did end up taking about $10k in student loans one year when I could get subsidized loans (no interest until I got out of school) and guaranteed low interest rates and I noticed that the stock market was pretty low.  I invested that money pretty successfully and ended up using the proceeds as a down payment on a duplex in the ghetto when I went to graduate school.  Renting one side payed most of the mortgage, so I was able to keep my living expenses in grad school really low.  Between that, teaching and research assistantships I was able to support myself through grad school without any loans or any help from my parents.
 
2013-04-13 05:25:03 PM  

farkeruk: GAT_00: Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.

Here's how you get access to most of the philosophy that's out there:
1. Buy a Kindle for $200,
2. Download all the works by Marx, Decartes, Aristotle, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Edmund Burke, Heidigger, Rousseau, Hayek, Wittgenstein and so forth. You'll have to pay for the Hayek as it's still in copyright, but the rest aren't.
3. Read them.
4. Find some forums out there on the internet where people discuss philosophy.
5. bla bla bla


This is a plan which hasn't been thought out very well.

Colleges and universities are not just for learning, although that is their primary function, but to provide proof that you have learned what you set out to learn. This proof is called a degree.

Potential employers are not going to call you in for a job interview simply because you wrote them an essay on the flaws and potential merits of Karl Marx's social and economic theories in relation to today's worldwide economic system, they are going to look for the degree on your resume. They may even ask for a copy of the diploma for their records. No degree, no job.

Learn all you want, but get proof (if needed) if you want to be employed.
 
2013-04-13 05:27:04 PM  

rewind2846: Dancin_In_Anson: He could always rent or is that beneath him?

For the rest of his life? Because that is what they may have to do, which, as it explains in TFA, stalls the economy - not to mention their lives. People buy sh*t when they have a house, and that buying sh*t provides jobs for other people who also buy sh*t and so on. That's how it's supposed to work.


By renting he'd have money to go to a restaurant, a baseball game, etc, and save up to either buy that house further down the line or potentially retire someday.  If he buys a house right now all of his money (which would normally be a figure of speech, but based on his numbers may be accurate) goes toward the mortgage and he wouldn't have expendible income.  His mortgage payment would go to a bank in another state.  He'd make purchases at Home Depot and Best Buy to furnish the house, and that money ends up in another state as well.  His landlord probably lives in the area, so his rent payments would eventually likely be used locally. Renting, at least for a while, is better for his local economy which is in turn better for him.
 
2013-04-13 05:27:04 PM  

rewind2846: Dancin_In_Anson: He could always rent or is that beneath him?

For the rest of his life? Because that is what they may have to do, which, as it explains in TFA, stalls the economy - not to mention their lives. People buy sh*t when they have a house, and that buying sh*t provides jobs for other people who also buy sh*t and so on. That's how it's supposed to work.


Home owners are not some magic economy stimulater while renters are freeloaders. It is actually the opposite since we subsidize home ownership by deducting interest and fixed 30 year loans end up in government ownership.
 
2013-04-13 05:27:19 PM  

farkeruk: GAT_00: Which largely reduces the arts to the rich and the lucky few who become TAs.

Here's how you get access to most of the philosophy that's out there:
1. Buy a Kindle for $200,
2. Download all the works by Marx, Decartes, Aristotle, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Edmund Burke, Heidigger, Rousseau, Hayek, Wittgenstein and so forth. You'll have to pay for the Hayek as it's still in copyright, but the rest aren't.
3. Read them.
4. Find some forums out there on the internet where people discuss philosophy.
5. Learn, read some more.

The original point of universities was to be a place where people went because books were too expensive. In the time before printing, they were so expensive, it was cheaper to send your kid to Oxford to hear someone read a book, than to buy that book. It's why some UK universities have people with the title of "reader" - because that's what they used to do.


It may surprise you to know that, since the 1450s, the curriculum has expanded somewhat beyond just reading books.
 
2013-04-13 05:27:52 PM  

rewind2846: FTA: "When I started college, when I was 18, the economy was good," said Roca-Picket, 29, who is expecting her first child, a son, in July. "We didn't know that after we graduated it was going to turn into the worst economy since the Great Depression."

Farking THIS. On average it takes about five years to graduate from college, longer if you're working part or full time, because you can't always get the courses you need when you need them.
Many things can change in five years, and the sh*tball that Bush started downhill in his first term had picked up a whole lot of speed by 2007-2008, when many of these people graduated.
I went back to school to get my bachelors (graduated with an AA in 2008) because the job market was so f*cked up that employers wouldn't even look at anyone in my field (and many others) who didn't carry at least a BS or BA. They didn't have to, because there were plenty of people with those degrees out of work, a condition which still persists today


Yep.

And I've been told on here, and other places, that I'm a dumbass because as a 17 year old I listened to, and trusted, my parents, other relatives, guidance counselors, and adult friends.
 
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