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(Talking Points Memo)   Last year, the Obamas paid a 25% higher tax rate than Mitt Romney - on only 3.5% of his last reported income   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 330
    More: Obvious, First Lady Michelle Obama, Dr. Jill Biden, tax rates, adjusted gross income  
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4332 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Apr 2013 at 3:10 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-12 03:46:24 PM

theknuckler_33: Why? You don't report that on your tax returns, do you?


No. SS & Medicare taxes do not appear anywhere on a federal income tax return unless you are paying the self-employment tax.
 
2013-04-12 03:46:35 PM

skullkrusher: sugardave: skullkrusher: sugardave: Grand_Moff_Joseph: WTF is it with this guy anyway?  Paying a fair tax rate??  Who the heck does he think he is??

See?  Proof all along that he isn't a Real Murkan!  IMPEACH!

*rolleyes*

What, are you trying to deny that there isn't a recently put-forth pretender to the position of POTUS that didn't espouse the view that it's the highest form of patriotic to pay the lowest taxes possible?

no, I'm rolling my eyes at the fact that the two of you are, presumably unwittingly, referring to the Bush tax cuts as a "fair tax rate" for a couple who made over $600k last year.


No, I was just thinking of the percentage number.  I'm still in the hospital (checking out today) with meds coursing through me, so don't expect anything deep from me.
 
2013-04-12 03:47:51 PM

skullkrusher: no, I'm rolling my eyes at the fact that the two of you are, presumably unwittingly, referring to the Bush tax cuts as a "fair tax rate" for a couple who made over $600k last year.


It's a much fairer effective rate for a couple who gave away to legitimate charities and thereby relinquished all use of $150,000 of that income.
 
2013-04-12 03:48:10 PM

Tom_Slick: The Obamas paid 18.4% Bidens 22% Romney is probably somewhere in the low teens, it is shiat like this that really pisses me off about the US tax code.  When I was a fresh college grad making $27,500 a year living in a shiatty one bedroom apartment driving a 10 year old beater I was paying over 30% taking advantage of every last loophole and deduction.


You were a college freshman in 1946?
 
2013-04-12 03:48:16 PM

theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: Tom_Slick: The Obamas paid 18.4% Bidens 22% Romney is probably somewhere in the low teens, it is shiat like this that really pisses me off about the US tax code.  When I was a fresh college grad making $27,500 a year living in a shiatty one bedroom apartment driving a 10 year old beater I was paying over 30% taking advantage of every last loophole and deduction.

that had to include state and local

Yea, and probably SS and medicare too.

I assumed that the Obama number included that

Why? You don't report that on your tax returns, do you?

/haven't filled out my own taxes in a while

sure it's on there.

On your 1040? I know its on your W-2, but I didn't think you put that on your 1040 anywhere.


huh... maybe not. Turbotax does the heavy lifting. I guess I am thinking of the W2
 
2013-04-12 03:50:51 PM
He must have written off an awful lot of farts and bongos.
 
2013-04-12 03:53:06 PM
He needs a better accountant.
 
2013-04-12 03:54:37 PM
Godamammit so much. When are we going to stop burning calories over who pays what tax rate? The current tax code has so many deductions, exceptions, loopholes, ins and outs that it makes the whole subject useless to discuss without talking about wholesale reform.
 
2013-04-12 03:55:58 PM

ManRay: Godamammit so much. When are we going to stop burning calories over who pays what tax rate? The current tax code has so many deductions, exceptions, loopholes, ins and outs that it makes the whole subject useless to discuss without talking about wholesale reform.


FAIRTAX!!!

/jk
 
2013-04-12 03:57:10 PM
Who in the hell is Mitt Romney?
 
2013-04-12 04:01:32 PM

ManRay: Godamammit so much. When are we going to stop burning calories over who pays what tax rate? The current tax code has so many deductions, exceptions, loopholes, ins and outs that it makes the whole subject useless to discuss without talking about wholesale reform.


Because actions speak louder than words. These people preach about giving back to your country, then they pull this in broad daylight. Their arrogance is just absolutely astounding.

When are we going to wake up and realize we've been bamboozled?
 
2013-04-12 04:02:33 PM

Mrtraveler01: FAIRTAX!!!


Have you read the proposal?
 
2013-04-12 04:04:08 PM

theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: Tom_Slick: The Obamas paid 18.4% Bidens 22% Romney is probably somewhere in the low teens, it is shiat like this that really pisses me off about the US tax code.  When I was a fresh college grad making $27,500 a year living in a shiatty one bedroom apartment driving a 10 year old beater I was paying over 30% taking advantage of every last loophole and deduction.

that had to include state and local

Yea, and probably SS and medicare too.

I assumed that the Obama number included that

Why? You don't report that on your tax returns, do you?

/haven't filled out my own taxes in a while


Yes you do it is a deduction and yes my figure included SS and State which in GA is just a percentage of your federal but you deduct those withholding on your federal form as well.  What I am saying is it is too complicated to pay your damn taxes.  I am now self employed, run my business through an S-corp and I have to pay an accountant a considerable amount of money to keep me legal and out of trouble with the IRS.  It is too much, you should not need computer programs to file your  taxes, you should not need accounts to file your taxes, HR Block and shady rapid refund loan place (although these may have been banned as I have not heard ads for them lately) should not be a viable business.  The only reason for this is to hide how much the government takes from your check.

For the record I don't mind paying taxes, tax me at whatever percentage the government needs to function, but I should not have to spend 20 hours a quarter to figure out my tax liability. Just tell me, "You made $1000 send the government $250"
 
2013-04-12 04:04:52 PM
18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.
 
2013-04-12 04:08:42 PM
Don't question your betters, submitter.
 
2013-04-12 04:11:22 PM

Tom_Slick: theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: Tom_Slick: The Obamas paid 18.4% Bidens 22% Romney is probably somewhere in the low teens, it is shiat like this that really pisses me off about the US tax code.  When I was a fresh college grad making $27,500 a year living in a shiatty one bedroom apartment driving a 10 year old beater I was paying over 30% taking advantage of every last loophole and deduction.

that had to include state and local

Yea, and probably SS and medicare too.

I assumed that the Obama number included that

Why? You don't report that on your tax returns, do you?

/haven't filled out my own taxes in a while

Yes you do it is a deduction and yes my figure included SS and State which in GA is just a percentage of your federal but you deduct those withholding on your federal form as well.  What I am saying is it is too complicated to pay your damn taxes.  I am now self employed, run my business through an S-corp and I have to pay an accountant a considerable amount of money to keep me legal and out of trouble with the IRS.  It is too much, you should not need computer programs to file your  taxes, you should not need accounts to file your taxes, HR Block and shady rapid refund loan place (although these may have been banned as I have not heard ads for them lately) should not be a viable business.  The only reason for this is to hide how much the government takes from your check.

For the record I don't mind paying taxes, tax me at whatever percentage the government needs to function, but I should not have to spend 20 hours a quarter to figure out my tax liability. Just tell me, "You made $1000 send the government $250"


it's a real PITA. This is the last year I am doing it myself. I say that every year but I mean it this time. I did a good number of options trades last year and they do not get reported on the standard 1099-B so you have to do all the farking calculations yourself. Can't even download them directly into TurboTax like you can ordinary stock trades because they don't appear in a standardized format. Plus fark the AMT. I wanna find a crooked accountant who will take all the blame for massaging things so I don't have to pay that shiat anymore
 
2013-04-12 04:11:51 PM

Epoch_Zero: 18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.


everyone who makes that kind of jack should.
 
2013-04-12 04:12:02 PM

Epoch_Zero: 18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.


Just him?
 
2013-04-12 04:12:19 PM

clancifer: But Romney was a Job Creator*.

/*for China


where are all of 0bama's shovel-ready jobs*?

/*on paper
 
2013-04-12 04:12:26 PM
silverunderground.com

Does not approve.
 
2013-04-12 04:15:59 PM
Romney isn't a hypocrite, before he supported low taxes.  Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.
 
2013-04-12 04:18:38 PM

SlothB77: Romney isn't a hypocrite, before he supported low taxes.  Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.


And both support paying what you statutorily owe. So?
 
2013-04-12 04:19:08 PM
Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story
 
2013-04-12 04:20:24 PM
Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.

He is a hypocrite because he paid the amount of taxes that he is supposed to?
 
2013-04-12 04:21:11 PM

SlothB77: Romney isn't a hypocrite, before he supported low taxes.  Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.


Following the rules while arguing they should be changed is not hypocrisy.
 
2013-04-12 04:21:32 PM

SlothB77: Romney isn't a hypocrite, before he supported low taxes.  Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.


Man, you tortured that logic like a prisoner in the gulag!
 
2013-04-12 04:21:48 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: Mrtraveler01: FAIRTAX!!!

Have you read the proposal?


Yeah, replace the income tax with a 30% sales tax.

The rest is just accounting BS to mask what a terrible idea it really is.
 
2013-04-12 04:22:22 PM

Hobodeluxe: Epoch_Zero: 18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.

everyone who makes that kind of jack should.


meh
 
2013-04-12 04:23:39 PM

Wellon Dowd: Indefinite reference is indefinite. Whose "his last reported income"?


Pay no attention to that whargharbll, because whargarbll whargharbll!!!  Headline obfuscation is so much fun and profitable!
 
2013-04-12 04:23:40 PM

JusticeandIndependence: Epoch_Zero: 18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.

Just him?


YES
EVERY MAN IS HIS OWN SOVEREIGN COUNTRY
i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-04-12 04:24:17 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story


Capital gains weren't taxed at the corporate level.

I buy buy stock in DSC Corporate Cocksuckers at $10 a share. Your business is so good that 5 years later I sell it at $100 a share. The income I derive from the increase in the value of the stock never passes through the hands of DSC Corporate Cocksuckers to be taxed.
 
2013-04-12 04:26:34 PM

Epoch_Zero: JusticeandIndependence: Epoch_Zero: 18% is bullshiat.  He should pay 40%.

Just him?

YES
EVERY MAN IS HIS OWN SOVEREIGN COUNTRY
[i3.kym-cdn.com image 374x400]


FREE MAN ON THE LAND
 
2013-04-12 04:27:24 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.


If I buy a new car, I pay sales tax on that car. If I then sell that car later to someone else, that person has to pay sales tax on it... at the same rate.  Don't give us that double-taxation bullshiat. It is income and should be taxed as income just like wages.
 
2013-04-12 04:27:47 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: I buy buy stock in DSC Corporate Cocksuckers at $10 a share.


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 The President and CEO of DSC Corporate Cocksuckers, Inc thanks you for your business.
 
2013-04-12 04:27:49 PM

SlothB77: Romney isn't a hypocrite, before he supported low taxes.  Obama is a hypocrite, because he supports tax hikes for the rich.

's blah.
 
2013-04-12 04:28:00 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story



Let's say 90%. That way the Owners of the Means of Production still get 10% of the profit, which will still give them more money than they deserve.

The government will take their 90% cut, and use it to improve the condition of the people that did the actual work, you know, THE WORKERS.
 
2013-04-12 04:28:19 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: I'm not racist but, I wasn't aware a person could write off certain food items just because that person is a you know what.


If you start your sentence with that, then you likely actually are racist.

/ 6/10
 
2013-04-12 04:29:45 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story

Capital gains weren't taxed at the corporate level.

I buy buy stock in DSC Corporate Cocksuckers at $10 a share. Your business is so good that 5 years later I sell it at $100 a share. The income I derive from the increase in the value of the stock never passes through the hands of DSC Corporate Cocksuckers to be taxed.


Sure it is, you idiot. Don't you think the price of the stock reflects the fact that DSCCS has to pay taxes on its earnings?

Or do you assume that all investors are as stupid as you, and don't consider the taxes that will be paid on the company's future great earnings?
 
2013-04-12 04:29:54 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story


Bullshiat bullshiat bullshiat.

So then on my labor income, can I count the money that my company paid in taxes? That's money that I helped contribute so that should lower my burden right? Not to mention that it's not like we actually do that math at the corporate level.  If GE pays an effective rate of 0% this year, suddenly are stockholders asked to pay 30% on their capital gains for sales of GE stock? No, they aren't.
 
2013-04-12 04:33:06 PM

theknuckler_33: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

If I buy a new car, I pay sales tax on that car. If I then sell that car later to someone else, that person has to pay sales tax on it... at the same rate.  Don't give us that double-taxation bullshiat. It is income and should be taxed as income just like wages.


Oh my god, " sales taxes". I love that argument.

I generally try not to use the term "double taxation", because it's not exactly double.

Do you consider people who describe corporate tax/dividend and capital gains tax as "double taxation" to be idiots?
 
2013-04-12 04:34:02 PM

Mrtraveler01: Yeah, replace the income tax with a 30% sales tax.

The rest is just accounting BS to mask what a terrible idea it really is.


In other words you haven't read it. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
2013-04-12 04:36:00 PM

nocturnal001: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story

Bullshiat bullshiat bullshiat.

So then on my labor income, can I count the money that my company paid in taxes? That's money that I helped contribute so that should lower my burden right? Not to mention that it's not like we actually do that math at the corporate level.  If GE pays an effective rate of 0% this year, suddenly are stockholders asked to pay 30% on their capital gains for sales of GE stock? No, they aren't.


No, your company deducted the wages they pay you from their taxable income, so they didn't pay taxes on it. You do pay taxes on that income. It's taxes once.

Conversely, companies are not allowed to to deduct dividend payments to investors. They pay a tax on earnings, and then investors pay a tax when they get what's left. Taxed twice.
 
2013-04-12 04:36:05 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: theknuckler_33: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

If I buy a new car, I pay sales tax on that car. If I then sell that car later to someone else, that person has to pay sales tax on it... at the same rate.  Don't give us that double-taxation bullshiat. It is income and should be taxed as income just like wages.

Oh my god, " sales taxes". I love that argument.

I generally try not to use the term "double taxation", because it's not exactly double.

Do you consider people who describe corporate tax/dividend and capital gains tax as "double taxation" to be idiots?


I consider people who think dividend and capital gains income, which disproportionately goes to the wealthiest people in this country, is inherently different from wages made by the little people in the context of paying income taxes to be idiots.

Does that answer your question.
 
2013-04-12 04:36:09 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story

Capital gains weren't taxed at the corporate level.

I buy buy stock in DSC Corporate Cocksuckers at $10 a share. Your business is so good that 5 years later I sell it at $100 a share. The income I derive from the increase in the value of the stock never passes through the hands of DSC Corporate Cocksuckers to be taxed.

Sure it is, you idiot. Don't you think the price of the stock reflects the fact that DSCCS has to pay taxes on its earnings?

Or do you assume that all investors are as stupid as you, and don't consider the taxes that will be paid on the company's future great earnings?


Nope. DSC Corporate Cocksuckers stock value could have increased without ever showing a dime in taxable profit. Stock price is not a direct reflection of the company's profit., let alone it's tax bill.

More importantly , the money that changes hands in the stock transaction is entirely independent of the company, and in no way is subject to corporate taxes.

 
2013-04-12 04:37:11 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Don't you think the price of the stock reflects the fact that DSCCS has to pay taxes on its earnings?


Hilarious.
 
2013-04-12 04:38:35 PM

kronicfeld: It's also worth noting that Obama didn't elect not to claim his charitable contributions on his tax return in order to artificially inflate his own tax rate while people were watching, leaving himself free to later amend his return and claim it after all.


Somehow I missed that part, but since it was stated right there in the effing article how much he claimed for charitable deductions, I'm not sure what I missed???

But keep at it.  I'm sure if you spin and troll long enough, I'll finally realize that he is, in fact, black.
 
2013-04-12 04:39:25 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: theknuckler_33: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

If I buy a new car, I pay sales tax on that car. If I then sell that car later to someone else, that person has to pay sales tax on it... at the same rate.  Don't give us that double-taxation bullshiat. It is income and should be taxed as income just like wages.

Oh my god, " sales taxes". I love that argument.

I generally try not to use the term "double taxation", because it's not exactly double.

Do you consider people who describe corporate tax/dividend and capital gains tax as "double taxation" to be idiots?


By the way, I'm sure you know that short-term capital gains are taxed as regular income. I know because I got a modest stock option award a few years ago and surprisingly didn't have 10s of thousands of dollars handy to buy the shares and sit on them for over a year before selling to take advantage of that special rate. I had to buy/sell in the same day in order to realize some of the proceeds.

Why is it ok to treat SOME capital gains preferentially?  In particular, the kind of capital gains that again are mostly realized by a certain segment of society?
 
2013-04-12 04:40:58 PM

kronicfeld: It's also worth noting that Obama didn't elect not to claim his charitable contributions on his tax return in order to artificially inflate his own tax rate while people were watching, leaving himself free to later amend his return and claim it after all.


wow, I missed the word "not" in your double negative sentence and don't I feel like a douchebag now...  My apologies
 
2013-04-12 04:41:31 PM

theknuckler_33: Why is it ok to treat SOME capital gains preferentially? In particular, the kind of capital gains that again are mostly realized by a certain segment of society?


I don't know that there are any stats on this but it would make sense that people with lower incomes tend to have more LTCGs than STCGs, not the other way around
 
2013-04-12 04:41:49 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: Christ you people are farking stupid. Capital gains and dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. So you need to add corporate taxes to Romney's (and Obama's, to the extent any of their income was from such income) to get an appropriate comparison.

Dont bother posting that cartoon that proves my point even though you think it proves yours. Just answer me this: how much of each dollar in pretax corporate income do you believe should end up in the pockets of owners, and how much should be taken by government? Be precise. Throw out a number.

/to the extent Romneys earnings were on carried interest, then that is a different story

Capital gains weren't taxed at the corporate level.

I buy buy stock in DSC Corporate Cocksuckers at $10 a share. Your business is so good that 5 years later I sell it at $100 a share. The income I derive from the increase in the value of the stock never passes through the hands of DSC Corporate Cocksuckers to be taxed.

Sure it is, you idiot. Don't you think the price of the stock reflects the fact that DSCCS has to pay taxes on its earnings?

Or do you assume that all investors are as stupid as you, and don't consider the taxes that will be paid on the company's future great earnings?

Nope. DSC Corporate Cocksuckers stock value could have increased without ever showing a dime in taxable profit. Stock price is not a direct reflection of the company's profit., let alone it's tax bill.

More importantly , the money that changes hands in the stock transaction is entirely independent of the company, and in no way is subject to corporate taxes.


Stock price is absolutely reflexive of investors expectations regarding future profits, inclusive of taxes.

If we abolished corporate income taxes tomorrow, stock prices would skyrocket because investors would now anticipate after tax earnings going up by 30-40% (whatever the impact of the reduction in tax expense will be). Conversely, if we raised corporate income taxes to 75%, stocks would crater. Again, because investors are cognizant of corporate taxes and include them in their valuation models.
 
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