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(Slashdot)   Hackers could disrupt the electric car charging grid, stranding tens of motorists   (it.slashdot.org) divider line 44
    More: Obvious, electricity grid, hackers, electric cars, charging station, motorists  
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2251 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Apr 2013 at 11:33 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-12 11:34:34 AM
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COUS-COUS, MAN?
 
2013-04-12 11:34:54 AM
Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?
 
2013-04-12 11:35:04 AM
Well done subby.
 
2013-04-12 11:35:36 AM
so....buy a horse?
 
2013-04-12 11:36:43 AM
Nice headline!

We have electric charging stations at work. Makes me want to get an electric car for the free juice! But then I got to thinking: there are only two charging stalls for my entire building, which has a lot (a bunch of hundreds, too lazy to count) of drivers. If more than a few people have electric cars, getting to the free juice will be murder.
 
2013-04-12 11:39:24 AM
ROFL, Subby!  Nice one.
 
2013-04-12 11:39:45 AM
The retard..... it goes to 11 right there... .
 
2013-04-12 11:41:25 AM

fireclown: Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?


Mazzic518: The retard..... it goes to 11 right there... .


Butthurt right out of the starting gate.
 
2013-04-12 11:43:50 AM
static.guim.co.uk
The top speed may only be 125mph but there's so much torque it does 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds. Not bad from a motor the size of a watermelon and which has only one moving part.
 
2013-04-12 11:44:20 AM
Well played, submitter.  HOTW material for sure, and future HOTY candidate.
 
2013-04-12 11:44:28 AM
Hackers could disrupt the national electrical grid and fark us all up.

Oh noes. Everybody panic.
 
2013-04-12 11:45:45 AM

GoldSpider: fireclown: Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?

Mazzic518: The retard..... it goes to 11 right there... .

Butthurt right out of the starting gate.


Humorless butthurt is a requirement.
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-12 11:47:11 AM
I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.
 
2013-04-12 11:47:33 AM
Arsonists could use the massive quantaties of easily avalible combustibles from our internal combustion car refuling grid to feed whole cities to the flames.

So what?
 
2013-04-12 11:48:28 AM

Jument: Nice headline!

We have electric charging stations at work. Makes me want to get an electric car for the free juice! But then I got to thinking: there are only two charging stalls for my entire building, which has a lot (a bunch of hundreds, too lazy to count) of drivers. If more than a few people have electric cars, getting to the free juice will be murder.


I got a Leaf a few weeks ago, haven't charged it anywhere but at home yet. (My daily driving needs are short, 20-30 miles, which is why I can even use an electric car).

The juice being free probably won't make a big difference; at Raleigh electricity rates (9.mumble cents/kWh even without time-of-use metering) I can go my 30 miles on 90-odd cents worth of electricity. That's about 1/3 of the fueling cost of the Prius it's replacing.
 
2013-04-12 11:51:51 AM
 
2013-04-12 11:52:24 AM
Yawn. Wake me when you find real vunerabilities in real chargers. (Of course I don't doubt people will).

An interesting related feature even the low-end residential EVSE I have on order has: when the power comes on after an outage, it waits a random amount of time before letting the attached car resume charging, to prevent accidentally triggering the very problem TFA worries about (grid DoS).

I suspect they all do this but don't know the relevant standards...
 
2013-04-12 11:53:47 AM

fireclown: Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?


What hackers blowing up a gas pipeline may look like:

top-10-list.org
 
2013-04-12 11:59:58 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: Jument: Nice headline!

We have electric charging stations at work. Makes me want to get an electric car for the free juice! But then I got to thinking: there are only two charging stalls for my entire building, which has a lot (a bunch of hundreds, too lazy to count) of drivers. If more than a few people have electric cars, getting to the free juice will be murder.

I got a Leaf a few weeks ago, haven't charged it anywhere but at home yet. (My daily driving needs are short, 20-30 miles, which is why I can even use an electric car).

The juice being free probably won't make a big difference; at Raleigh electricity rates (9.mumble cents/kWh even without time-of-use metering) I can go my 30 miles on 90-odd cents worth of electricity. That's about 1/3 of the fueling cost of the Prius it's replacing.


I'm noticing more and more Leafs (Leaves?) around here even in middle of the country St. Louis. Like at least once a week.
 
2013-04-12 12:16:33 PM

ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.


Unfortunately, the battery holds less and less charge over the years as it deteriorates. No one wants to swap a brand-new battery for one that holds much less.

Fortunately, some of the charging stations use a much, much higher voltage and current than standard household, and are capable of recharging the entire thing, from empty to full, in 30 min. So you can top it off it the time it would take to swap batteries and buy a slurpee, anyway.
 
2013-04-12 12:19:07 PM
ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.

I'm thinking either a swap batteries station or roads with a "3rd rail" before electric makes sense. Setting for a couple of hours to charge batts sounds udderly retarded.
 
2013-04-12 12:21:32 PM

Ambitwistor: fireclown: Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?

What hackers blowing up a gas pipeline may look like:

[top-10-list.org image 595x270]


echosweb.com

What the two guys who survived that may look like.
 
2013-04-12 12:22:45 PM
Seems like the Government should have been making/subsidizing a separate fiber optic cable specifically for getting all sensitive operations off the the Internet, and onto a seriously private network.
 
GBB
2013-04-12 12:31:11 PM
I read that as "electric chair".
 
2013-04-12 12:33:23 PM
While electric cars and EV charging systems are still in their infancy, they could become a more common way to travel within the next 10 years.

I cry BS, since it seems EVs can't sell themselves (and people seem to be a -lot- wiser about EVs and their cons now). I bet CAVs would... if they sold them here...
 
2013-04-12 12:33:56 PM

ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.


That would work for some electric cars but not others.  If you look at how the Tesla Model S is put together, for example, pretty much the entire underside of the car is a massive array of batteries (which is how it can achieve three times the range of any other electric vehicle).

A better solution is a network of well-placed high-voltage charging stations, like the one Tesla is building out right now.  Yes, it may take half an hour to recharge a battery, but if you e.g. grab a meal at a nearby diner while the car is charging, the car will be mostly or completely recharged by the time you're ready to leave.
 
2013-04-12 12:42:57 PM

Stoker: Seems like the Government should have been making/subsidizing a separate fiber optic cable specifically for getting all sensitive operations off the the Internet, and onto a seriously private network.


Most if not all DoD agencies already have their own networks that are completely separate from the Internet, which they use to exchange secret and top-secret information.  The thing is that power grid hacking and such is a relatively new threat, and governments tend to be bad at responding to rapid change.

What I don't understand is why the computers that control the power grid NEED to be on a network that is connected to the Internet at all.
 
2013-04-12 12:56:30 PM

anfrind: Stoker: Seems like the Government should have been making/subsidizing a separate fiber optic cable specifically for getting all sensitive operations off the the Internet, and onto a seriously private network.

Most if not all DoD agencies already have their own networks that are completely separate from the Internet, which they use to exchange secret and top-secret information.  The thing is that power grid hacking and such is a relatively new threat, and governments tend to be bad at responding to rapid change.

What I don't understand is why the computers that control the power grid NEED to be on a network that is connected to the Internet at all.


For the porn, duh.
 
2013-04-12 12:58:58 PM

fireclown: Yup.  And blowing up a fuel pipeline would strand thousands of internal combustion engines.  What's the point?


A fun game to play is to ask yourself how much damage you could do, either in terms of dollars or body count, if you were determined to maximize the amount of misery inflicted on your little corner of civilization. Should you just try to blow up a gigantic dam, and ruin/end a bunch of people's days in one suicidal blaze of glory? Or would you make the world even shiattier in the long run by conducting decades-long campaigns of covert, nearly-risk-free campaign of vandalism and fear-mongering?

If you can't fill up five single-spaced pages with all the evil plans you could plausibly put into effect before you have to pause for thought, you're severely lacking in imagination. Think of all the things that are carefully guarded, secured, locked down, and made safe in this world. Okay, the other 99.999% you can set on fire (metaphorically, or literally if that's your thing).

Regardless of your approach, the short answer is that you can do truly epic amounts of crap if you're sufficiently psychotically indifferent to the consequences, and if there are TWO of you working in tandem, it's exponentially more. (Fight Club didn't even scratch the surface. A whole army of angry blue-collar dudes could do a lot worse than piss in people's soup and bring down a few buildings.) And yet it hardly ever happens in any significant way. What makes me nervous sometimes is that I can't figure out  why it doesn't happen more often.
 
2013-04-12 12:59:41 PM
I just don't get the hatred for electric vehicles. They're perfectly fine and a great solution in certain situations. Admittedly there's a decent fog of smug around them, but for someone that wants/needs a 2nd vehicle for short commutes only they sound like a great idea.

Plus anything that gets us suckling from the Middle East oil teet less has to be a good idea.
 
2013-04-12 01:10:39 PM

anfrind: ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.

That would work for some electric cars but not others.  If you look at how the Tesla Model S is put together, for example, pretty much the entire underside of the car is a massive array of batteries (which is how it can achieve three times the range of any other electric vehicle).

A better solution is a network of well-placed high-voltage charging stations, like the one Tesla is building out right now.  Yes, it may take half an hour to recharge a battery, but if you e.g. grab a meal at a nearby diner while the car is charging, the car will be mostly or completely recharged by the time you're ready to leave.


I got it.  Charging stations at malls and strip clubs
 
2013-04-12 01:13:02 PM

mjohnson71: I just don't get the hatred for electric vehicles. They're perfectly fine and a great solution in certain situations. Admittedly there's a decent fog of smug around them, but for someone that wants/needs a 2nd vehicle for short commutes only they sound like a great idea.

Plus anything that gets us suckling from the Middle East oil teet less has to be a good idea.


They get the idea from their *Republican Talking Points Echo Chamber* (TM). That anything that isn't making Exxon, BP (I know, British Company, but still defended by Republicans after polluting the Gulf of Mexico), Shell, and other oil companies richer (except for Citco) is an evil librul plot!
 
2013-04-12 01:17:24 PM

Sim Tree: Unfortunately, the battery holds less and less charge over the years as it deteriorates. No one wants to swap a brand-new battery for one that holds much less.


You're right, of course, although you could fix that with a guarantee that you were swapping batteries that were less than a year old, or had gone through less than a certain number of charging cycles, etc.

The more substantial problem is that the batteries are now (and for the foreseeable future) very, very large and correspondingly heavy--hundreds of pounds at a minimum. If you need three guys with a crane to hoist your old battery out and the new one in, that's not really progress.

On the other hand, while there are serious upper limits to the practical energy density of batteries, I bet there's a lot of room to get clever about making them take a charge faster. If you could get even a 6-to-1 driving-to-charging ratio, that'd be enough to make long-haul trips plausible, and for most people 99% of their driving isn't in the form of multiple-"tank" trips anyway.
 
2013-04-12 01:28:00 PM

mjohnson71: I just don't get the hatred for electric vehicles.


Combination of (terribly stupid) reasons.

1. They're perceived as more eco-vehicles than regular cars and therefore they are for liberals and therefore some people feel like they have the knee-jerk political duty to hate and trash them at every turn as if bashing the Nissan Leaf somehow means Mitt Romney will finally win the election.

2. Some people view the ongoing change in American attitude from "big and powerful" to "functional and efficient" when it comes to cars as an assault on the favored tradition of big-block, high horsepower gas-guzzling V8s. It's sort an automobile version of "Reading is for faggots!"

3. Some people just think anything that's new and different must be inherently wrong and so they just wildly bash it for the sake of it.

The short version though is that the people who bash them just to bash them are simply pridefully arrogant and ignorant and think that if it doesn't work for them (or they refuse to admit it does, anyway) then it must not work for anybody and only a stupid person would buy it.
 
2013-04-12 02:03:39 PM

Sim Tree: ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.

Unfortunately, the battery holds less and less charge over the years as it deteriorates. No one wants to swap a brand-new battery for one that holds much less.

Fortunately, some of the charging stations use a much, much higher voltage and current than standard household, and are capable of recharging the entire thing, from empty to full, in 30 min. So you can top it off it the time it would take to swap batteries and buy a slurpee, anyway.


Downside, though: charging that way is worse for the battery life than charging in the 4-hour way. (According to the Leaf manual and forums; mine doesn't have the port for those big-ass chargers anyway).
 
2013-04-12 02:07:20 PM

Lochsteppe: anfrind: Stoker: Seems like the Government should have been making/subsidizing a separate fiber optic cable specifically for getting all sensitive operations off the the Internet, and onto a seriously private network.

Most if not all DoD agencies already have their own networks that are completely separate from the Internet, which they use to exchange secret and top-secret information.  The thing is that power grid hacking and such is a relatively new threat, and governments tend to be bad at responding to rapid change.

What I don't understand is why the computers that control the power grid NEED to be on a network that is connected to the Internet at all.

For the porn, duh.


They need _some_ network for things like credit card authorizations, spreading around utility demand, connecting to an employer's building management system, etc.  No doubt those networks aren't usually connected to the Internet at all, but there's no such thing as a totally effective "air gap". It just takes one person to plug their laptop into the Internet, get it compromised, then go plug it into the "secure" network. Or someone to go plug in a thumb drive, etc.
 
2013-04-12 02:54:50 PM

ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.


MMMmmmm.  Twice the lead batteries to dispose of.  I like you plan.  It's so...so....Love Canal.
 
2013-04-12 03:33:39 PM

Mazzic518: The retard..... it goes to 11 right there... .


THANKS, OBAMA
 
2013-04-12 03:36:18 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again, just for good measure: If your industrial process is connected to the Internet, you are an idiot.
 
2013-04-12 04:29:09 PM

Magnus: ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.

MMMmmmm.  Twice the lead batteries to dispose of.  I like you plan.  It's so...so....Love Canal.


You do know they recycle batteries, right? Also that there's more than one type of battery?

Also there is no way I want to spend 30 minutes at the average truck stop/gas station, or eat the food there. Gas and bathroom is 10 minutes tops, then I want to be back on the damn road. I eat in the car most trips.
 
2013-04-12 05:08:56 PM

ladyfortuna: I was just thinking about those charging things yesterday. I think, rather than plugging the cars in, there ought to be some kind of 'hot swap' option for the batteries; swap your battery for a fully charged one which would take about as long as filling up a gas tank. Obviously pay for the juice it takes to charge it, but they could have a bank of battery swap lockers instead of charging stations or something. Seems to me it would be far more convenient/efficient, especially if you were on a long trip, instead of waiting around for the car to charge.


Batteries age.  You want to be the guy who always gets stuck with the about-to-go-out-of-date battery?
 
2013-04-12 06:46:29 PM
Again, they DO get recycled. It wouldn't be hard to have some kind of RFID tag on them with a date, and when it got swapped out, the charging facility could flag out of date ones for removal. Charge for the juice/upkeep, and add a surcharge for removal & recycling. You guys aren't thinking big enough...
 
2013-04-12 09:20:38 PM

anfrind: Stoker: Seems like the Government should have been making/subsidizing a separate fiber optic cable specifically for getting all sensitive operations off the the Internet, and onto a seriously private network.

Most if not all DoD agencies already have their own networks that are completely separate from the Internet, which they use to exchange secret and top-secret information. The thing is that power grid hacking and such is a relatively new threat, and governments tend to be bad at responding to rapid change.

What I don't understand is why the computers that control the power grid NEED to be on a network that is connected to the Internet at all.


I've seen Jurassic Park enough times to know that good things happen when you can tell a computer to shut down electricity.
 
2013-04-12 11:14:44 PM

ladyfortuna: Again, they DO get recycled. It wouldn't be hard to have some kind of RFID tag on them with a date, and when it got swapped out, the charging facility could flag out of date ones for removal. Charge for the juice/upkeep, and add a surcharge for removal & recycling. You guys aren't thinking big enough...


Or a cost associated with the charge $x per kw on the battery.

Moot point anyway.  It'll be hydrogen.
 
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