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(Addicting Info)   Marriage equality opponents have a teachable moment about how civil unions aren't as good as marriage when hospital denies visitation to civil union partner then call cops to rough him up for not leaving his partner's side   (addictinginfo.org ) divider line
    More: Stupid, power of attorneys, domestic partners, psychiatric hospitals, same-sex marriages, assisted living, Pinterest, gays, thinkprogress  
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2013-04-12 10:20:18 AM  
1) repeat
2) what's to stop them from treating your marriage certificate the same way they treated your civil union certificate?
 
2013-04-12 10:21:46 AM  
http://fox4kc.com/2013/04/11/hospital-bad-behavior-sole-reason-man-ha d -to-leave/

I think this give's a bit of compassion for the nurses on-site... they don't have any control over a fight between the homophobic brother and the in "all but legal ways" spouse.   They just need to get it moved out of the hospital area.   It was unclear to me whether they forced the brother out as well, considering he was also involved in the altercation.

I do agree that it shows why it is needed... of course, the people who are against it like the brother in this case don't give a crap, but, this is why "separate but equal" also doesn't work in this (and many other) cases... without REAL legal teeth, people are just able to put their owns opinions on it, or just having to go by the strict "letter" of the law.

And, I'm not sure I get the "he didn't have proof of power of attorney" bit.  I mean, I don't ever recall needing to dig out my marriage certificate to visit my wife in the hospital.   Maybe I missed in the article where the guy was in a coma or something?  Because if he is able to speak... I'd think he'd be saying "Get my brother the F out of here, where is my husband?"
 
2013-04-12 10:24:03 AM  

serial_crusher: 1) repeat
2) what's to stop them from treating your marriage certificate the same way they treated your civil union certificate?


In the short term?  Not much.  Anyone concerned with avoiding pesky court cases though would probably honor a civil union or same-sex marriage in states where it is legal.

Regardless, that's not important on whether or not gays should be given marriage equality.
 
2013-04-12 10:25:20 AM  

serial_crusher: 1) repeat
2) what's to stop them from treating your marriage certificate the same way they treated your civil union certificate?


-Came here to say that
-More obvious legal penalties, plus in a "married" situation hospital personnel know the spouse takes precedence over other family.
 
2013-04-12 10:29:04 AM  

Cythraul: serial_crusher: 1) repeat
2) what's to stop them from treating your marriage certificate the same way they treated your civil union certificate?

In the short term?  Not much.  Anyone concerned with avoiding pesky court cases though would probably honor a civil union or same-sex marriage in states where it is legal.

Regardless, that's not important on whether or not gays should be given marriage equality.


Hmmm, I worded that wrong.  And don't really feel like reiterating.  Disregard.
 
2013-04-12 10:35:02 AM  
I'll go ahead and bust out my anti-marriage argument on this one too.  The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied.  That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality" that's inherently unequal to single people.

Lets consider a case where a single person needs access to his actual attorney, and some jackass family member isn't going to allow it for whatever kooky reason.  The hospital listens to the jackass family member because you diverted this situation to be about marriage instead of about power of attorney.  Well great, what am I supposed to do now?  Marry my lawyer?
 
2013-04-12 10:38:37 AM  

serial_crusher: I'll go ahead and bust out my anti-marriage argument on this one too.  The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied.  That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality" that's inherently unequal to single people.

Lets consider a case where a single person needs access to his actual attorney, and some jackass family member isn't going to allow it for whatever kooky reason.  The hospital listens to the jackass family member because you diverted this situation to be about marriage instead of about power of attorney.  Well great, what am I supposed to do now?  Marry my lawyer?


Huh?
 
2013-04-12 10:55:27 AM  
That'll teach 'em!

I expect large numbers of homosexuals to turn straight now.
 
2013-04-12 11:50:28 AM  
Keep to the Fox News talking points conservatives........gays are asking for special privileges.
 
2013-04-12 11:51:13 AM  

I know it's a repeat, but I want to re-post the Boobies of the earlier thread, because it was so---perfect.  Apologies to whomever you were that posted this originally, you're brilliant but I'm too lazy to look you up to give credit.


Separate but equal, indeed.

 
2013-04-12 11:52:58 AM  
Fox News Viewers: "Why doesn't he just get a sex change operation? I mean Jebus H. Crist doesn't like that either, but it's better than a penis in another man's poophole."
 
2013-04-12 11:59:29 AM  

serial_crusher: I'll go ahead and bust out my anti-marriage argument on this one too.  The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied.  That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality" that's inherently unequal to single people.

Lets consider a case where a single person needs access to his actual attorney, and some jackass family member isn't going to allow it for whatever kooky reason.  The hospital listens to the jackass family member because you diverted this situation to be about marriage instead of about power of attorney.  Well great, what am I supposed to do now?  Marry my lawyer?


That doesn't make any point about marriage at all. Nor does it make any sense (why would a hospital listen to a family member over you?) I suggest you try again.
 
2013-04-12 12:04:40 PM  

coeyagi: Fox News Viewers: "Why doesn't he just get a sex change operation? I mean Jebus H. Crist doesn't like that either, but it's better than a penis in another man's poophole."


Counterpoint: :-0
 
2013-04-12 12:04:59 PM  
Exception Collection:
-More obvious legal penalties, plus in a "married" situation hospital personnel know the spouse takes precedence over other family.

Actually, it's more "once a primary decision-maker is established, they get priority and to make decisions".  It's not always the spouse, for instance my aunt had authority when my grandfather was in the hospital, not my grandmother.

That said, an actual power of attourney is supposed to supersede basically anyone, if this guy had one then the hospital is in the wrong whether they're union'd, married, or never met in their lives.  PoA wins, end of story.
 
2013-04-12 12:15:10 PM  

serial_crusher: The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied. That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality"


odinsposse: That doesn't make any point about marriage at all.


It wasn't meant to. I get it - if a hospital can deny a power-of-attorney document in one case where the family objects, what's to stop them from denying my brother's PoA over my medical decisions because my other brother (or my parents) object?

Although the problem in this case appears to be more of a "take it outside until you can be civil inside" scenario.
 
2013-04-12 12:24:42 PM  

odinsposse: serial_crusher: I'll go ahead and bust out my anti-marriage argument on this one too.  The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied.  That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality" that's inherently unequal to single people.

Lets consider a case where a single person needs access to his actual attorney, and some jackass family member isn't going to allow it for whatever kooky reason.  The hospital listens to the jackass family member because you diverted this situation to be about marriage instead of about power of attorney.  Well great, what am I supposed to do now?  Marry my lawyer?

That doesn't make any point about marriage at all. Nor does it make any sense (why would a hospital listen to a family member over you?) I suggest you try again.


That's what they allegedly did in this case, so why wouldn't they in mine?
Of course the hospital's "take it outside" argument (assuming it's true) trumps everybody.

The only "point about marriage" I was trying to make is that this situation shouldn't be considered an anecdote about marriage.  It should be an anecdote about power of attorney.
 
2013-04-12 12:40:43 PM  

serial_crusher: That's what they allegedly did in this case, so why wouldn't they in mine?
Of course the hospital's "take it outside" argument (assuming it's true) trumps everybody.

The only "point about marriage" I was trying to make is that this situation shouldn't be considered an anecdote about marriage.  It should be an anecdote about power of attorney.


According to TFA (which could indeed be wrong) the hospital ignored PoA because the guy was gay. It wasn't the legal or right thing to do but the hospital did it because the staff doesn't like gay people. So yea, it is about marriage equality. I suppose you could extend it to "hospital staff could ignore anyone's PoA if they are willing to take the legal consequences" but that's is less convincing because the motivating factor for why a hospital would do that, anti-gay bigotry, is absent.
 
2013-04-12 12:42:25 PM  

serial_crusher: I'll go ahead and bust out my anti-marriage argument on this one too.  The guys had a valid power of attorney and that was denied.  That's the problem here, not your "marriage equality" that's inherently unequal to single people.

Lets consider a case where a single person needs access to his actual attorney, and some jackass family member isn't going to allow it for whatever kooky reason.  The hospital listens to the jackass family member because you diverted this situation to be about marriage instead of about power of attorney.  Well great, what am I supposed to do now?  Marry my lawyer?


How?  The single person simply has not decided to sign the contract that would give him these benefits.

Also, you don't seem to know what "power of attorney" means.  Yes, it can be GIVEN to an actual attorney (don't know why you would, but TEHO), but all it is is a document that says that person x has power to make (some) decisions on your behalf should you be sufficiently incapacitated (this is a farking important point.  If you can ask for an attorney, you're not dealing with a PoA situation [yet], which means that your analogy is so far off as to be laughable).  If you don't have this document laid out, it defaults to next of kin (or previous of kin, or brother/sister, depending on the situration.  Point is, it defaults to family).  Seriously, dude, learn what we're discussing first.  You'll come out looking less stupid.  Not by much, but it will still be less.


Also:


HMS_Blinkin: Separate but equal, indeed.



That.
 
2013-04-12 12:46:46 PM  

serial_crusher: That's what they allegedly did in this case, so why wouldn't they in mine?
Of course the hospital's "take it outside" argument (assuming it's true) trumps everybody.

The only "point about marriage" I was trying to make is that this situation shouldn't be considered an anecdote about marriage. It should be an anecdote about power of attorney.


Because in your situation, you're still conscious.  Can't ask for/need a lawyer whilst in a coma.

And it works either way:  they didn't listen to the PoA documents because he was gay.  That, and if they were married, PoA would be pointless, as "spouse" would be considered primary next of kin (which was not listed earlier because you're single and thus it does not apply to you).
 
2013-04-12 12:58:31 PM  

friday13: Also, you don't seem to know what "power of attorney" means. Yes, it can be GIVEN to an actual attorney (don't know why you would, but TEHO), but all it is is a document that says that person x has power to make (some) decisions on your behalf should you be sufficiently incapacitated (this is a farking important point. If you can ask for an attorney, you're not dealing with a PoA situation [yet], which means that your analogy is so far off as to be laughable).


Being physically stuck in the hospital can be considered "sufficiently incapacitated" in the right situations, can't it?  Suppose I need to retrieve a valuable object from my safety deposit box at the bank, so I can sell it to raise funds for the surgery I need.  I'm stuck in the hospital, so I need to send somebody in my stead, but I know my next of kin is a deadbeat who will just steal it and sell it for drug money or something.  And of course before they go on that errand I'll need to discuss the details of the transaction with them in person.

Is a power of attorney not the appropriate paperwork to fill out in that case?
 
2013-04-12 01:07:00 PM  

serial_crusher: Being physically stuck in the hospital can be considered "sufficiently incapacitated" in the right situations, can't it?

Not in this situation, no.  PoA only applies to decision-making, like what surgery is going to happen, or whether to go off life support, or whether to try an experimental treatment.  It's not transferred over a broken spine.  So long as you're mentally sound (and can be understood), YOU still have PoA.

serial_crusher: Suppose I need to retrieve a valuable object from my safety deposit box at the bank, so I can sell it to raise funds for the surgery I need. I'm stuck in the hospital, so I need to send somebody in my stead, but I know my next of kin is a deadbeat who will just steal it and sell it for drug money or something. And of course before they go on that errand I'll need to discuss the details of the transaction with them in person.

Is a power of attorney not the appropriate paperwork to fill out in that case?


No, it's not.  Because you're still conscious.  All you need to do is tell the doctor to let this person you want to send in to see you, while removing everyone else.  They kind of have to listen to you.
 
2013-04-12 01:22:59 PM  

friday13: serial_crusher: Being physically stuck in the hospital can be considered "sufficiently incapacitated" in the right situations, can't it?
Not in this situation, no.  PoA only applies to decision-making, like what surgery is going to happen, or whether to go off life support, or whether to try an experimental treatment.  It's not transferred over a broken spine.  So long as you're mentally sound (and can be understood), YOU still have PoA.

serial_crusher: Suppose I need to retrieve a valuable object from my safety deposit box at the bank, so I can sell it to raise funds for the surgery I need. I'm stuck in the hospital, so I need to send somebody in my stead, but I know my next of kin is a deadbeat who will just steal it and sell it for drug money or something. And of course before they go on that errand I'll need to discuss the details of the transaction with them in person.

Is a power of attorney not the appropriate paperwork to fill out in that case?

No, it's not.  Because you're still conscious.  All you need to do is tell the doctor to let this person you want to send in to see you, while removing everyone else.  They kind of have to listen to you.


They didn't the time my ex-girlfriend was in the hospital and asked for me to be allowed in.  Hospital still made me wait until official visiting hours but let her parents in right away.  That might have been a mistake on the hospital's part though.
Sure I could have married her if it was that big of a deal (holy shiat that would have been a mistake, thankfully it didn't come to that), but I'm only bringing it up as an example of how they don't always listen to the patient's wishes.

I get what you're saying though.  Power of attorney is about making decisions and this case was about visitation not decision-making.

I still think people have a right to specify (in advance) who can and can't visit them if they're incapacitated, and shouldn't need a full on marriage to do that.  It's one thing to say that it would be nice if a person was around to comfort me, but entirely another thing to say I want to indelibly merge my finances with them and pay alimony for the rest of my life if the friendship goes south.
 
2013-04-12 01:55:54 PM  

serial_crusher: They didn't the time my ex-girlfriend was in the hospital and asked for me to be allowed in. Hospital still made me wait until official visiting hours but let her parents in right away. That might have been a mistake on the hospital's part though.


It probably was, assuming she specifically requested you be allowed in.

serial_crusher: I get what you're saying though. Power of attorney is about making decisions and this case was about visitation not decision-making.


Actually, it was about both, but primarily PoA, and new information shows just how much decision fail there was from the hospital.

serial_crusher: I still think people have a right to specify (in advance) who can and can't visit them if they're incapacitated


As far as I know, they are, but a marriage takes care of some of that semi-automatically.  Either way, you still have to take a positive action.

serial_crusher: It's one thing to say that it would be nice if a person was around to comfort me, but entirely another thing to say I want to indelibly merge my finances with them and pay alimony for the rest of my life if the friendship goes south.


Wait, I thought you were complaining that allowing marriage is unfair for single people.  It seems like you're saying that there are both costs and benefits to marriage, and that a good portion of those benefits are either obtainable through other means or have costs that balance it out.  Weird, that.
 
2013-04-12 02:53:07 PM  

friday13: Wait, I thought you were complaining that allowing marriage is unfair for single people. It seems like you're saying that there are both costs and benefits to marriage, and that a good portion of those benefits are either obtainable through other means or have costs that balance it out. Weird, that.


Rights that are obtainable through other means (like hospital visitation and power of attorney) aren't credible arguments in my anti-marriage crusade, but they're also not credible arguments in the pro-gay-marriage crusade.  Gay people can exercise those rights without being married, just like any other unmarried person.
That's my gripe in this case.  People are trying to make this a marriage argument when it's not.

As to why marriage is unfair, it's mostly about the tax benefits.  You can argue that the tax benefits are associated with costs that single people don't have (i.e. buying food for a stay-at-home spouse, risk of losing half your shiat when you get divorced) , and that makes a little sense.  But it segues into my related belief that the government shouldn't care what personal costs you have.  i.e. your marriage is your risk to take, and shouldn't result in your personal tax burden being shifted to others.
 
2013-04-12 04:51:08 PM  
serial_crusher:

As to why marriage is unfair, it's mostly about the tax benefits.  You can argue that the tax benefits are associated with costs that single people don't have (i.e. buying food for a stay-at-home spouse, risk of losing half your shiat when you get divorced) , and that makes a little sense.  But it segues into my related belief that the government shouldn't care what personal costs you have.  i.e. your marriage is your risk to take, and shouldn't result in your personal tax burden being shifted to others.

First, that bolded part?  Not a tax.

Though I can agree that the government shouldn't necessarily care about your personal costs, but once you get below the poverty line, you're a citizen who can't pay your tax burden, and maybe the government has some interest in making sure that you can.  There's also an argument to be made for the health of the citizenry, and a few others.  But right now, we have marriage, and if you want to change that, there are probably better places to attempt to do it than a Fark thread.  Try a fundie church.  They may be receptive at this point in the game.
 
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