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(Daily Mail)   Climate-friendly refrigerant is more deadly than hydrogen cyanide and will BURN YOUR FACE OFF   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 21
    More: Scary, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, Public Works Committee, statutory authority, Americans for Limited Government, Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, A/T/S, Daimler AG, auto show  
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13067 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 2:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 03:16:09 PM  
3 votes:

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?


No, you can't have NeF8. Not yours.

Fluorine will make stable compounds with xenon, which in reality is pretty slutty for a "noble" gas. It'll bind with krypton, too, but not very stably. It'll also "bind" with argon, if you call "staying in an ordered lattice at cryogenic temperatures for the sake of the kids" "binding".

If you're concerned about the hazardous properties of the elements that compose a compound, I hope to hell that you never have to deal with table salt.

The Daily Fail is attention-whoring here for the most part; all those horrid toxic products will also appear if you propel atomized oil against an igniter with R-134a, or good old non-toxic ozone-destroying dichlorodifluoromethane. I am a bit concerned about the trifluoroacetic acid decomposition product, though. I'd be much happier sticking with R-134a for legacy systems and moving new ones to CO2, although I thought there were dire practical barriers to small-scale CO2-based refrigeration.
2013-04-11 06:01:36 PM  
2 votes:

maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.


I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.
2013-04-11 02:54:48 PM  
2 votes:

Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed


Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited.  R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA  test it that way.  These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing.  It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world.  Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.
2013-04-11 02:54:13 PM  
2 votes:
Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php
2013-04-11 08:25:22 PM  
1 votes:
Oldiron_79:

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.

Fuuuuu...

Yeah in addition to being poisonous its also corrosive, an oxidiser, reacts with water, and is radioactive.I wouldnt touch the stuff with a 39&1/2 foot pole.


One of the more fun things about first processing or reprocessing nuclear fuel (UREX / PUREX reprocessing) is that it involves a lot of the stuff, and there's not a lot you can do with it afterwards. In non-nuclear applications you can run it through a plasma torch and reduce it to more benign compounds, but with reprocessing waste it's invariably contaminated with radiologically "hot" stuff that you still have to deal with.

So you basically have this "aqua regia" that all you can do is store. At the Hanford Site they have millions of gallons of the stuff in big underground tanks, and we spend billions every year just keeping it from seeping into the Columbia river.

Anytime someone goes on about "closed cycle" reprocessing of nuclear waste, they probably just think you can shovel fuel rods from one reactor to another and magic happens.
2013-04-11 07:11:24 PM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 144x161]

Fuuuuu...


You goddamn Jew-hating bastard.

I'm laughing my ass off. Well done.

// you just may be all right after all
// just...not in /politics, k?
2013-04-11 06:36:04 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: They mix calcium gluconate in a KY slurry at a ratio of 1ml CaGlu to 2ml KY and slather that on the wound every fifteen minutes. Hands get put in gloves filled with the stuff. They'll infiltrate Ca Gluconate into the tissue around the burn too with a tuberculin syringe at a dose of 0.5ml x cm3 area affected. When you get to the hospital, an anesthesiologist will put in an arterial line above the level of the injury and give you a massive dose of calcium gluconate intraarterially for the next few hours.


That sounds the flesh wound version

I've never heard you get immediate amputation.

Once it's in the bone nothing stops it except lack of bone. Well, that's what they told us. We had the gluconate paste handy for small splashes - luckily I never had to use it.
2013-04-11 06:27:12 PM  
1 votes:

orbister: Oh yes indeed. Know what the standard treatment for a major HF burn is? If it gets to the bone you get immediate amputation at the next major joint.


Who told you that?

They mix calcium gluconate in a KY slurry at a ratio of 1ml CaGlu to 2ml KY and slather that on the wound every fifteen minutes. Hands get put in gloves filled with the stuff. They'll infiltrate Ca Gluconate into the tissue around the burn too with a tuberculin syringe at a dose of 0.5ml x cm3 area affected. When you get to the hospital, an anesthesiologist will put in an arterial line above the level of the injury and give you a massive dose of calcium gluconate intraarterially for the next few hours.

I've never heard you get immediate amputation.
2013-04-11 06:09:48 PM  
1 votes:

orbister: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.


I was just in a hurry to get the line back in operation, I usually used the gloves,PFD material? It's been so long ago but I still have the scar. And you are SOO right read the MSDS carefully.
2013-04-11 05:20:33 PM  
1 votes:
Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.

This has been the case with home HVAC for decades. Every few years DuPont convinces the EPA that their new refrigerant  they they hold the patent for, is better for the environment, however they always require to be ran at higher pressures which means you have to buy new equipment to use it as well. Problem is that higher pressure is prone to more leaking, so even if the new cfc is better for the environment by volume than the old stuff, more of it gets released into the atmosphere.  Seems to happen just as the patents on the old stuff are about to expire. Surely it's all about saving the environment and has nothing to do with the lobbying efforts.
2013-04-11 05:00:22 PM  
1 votes:
I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.
2013-04-11 04:49:51 PM  
1 votes:

Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?



No, these are patented by DuPont and Honeywell, and they spent millions lobbying our government protectors.

They are safe.


/Don't you care about the ozone layer?
//And expiring patents?
///And the children?
2013-04-11 03:54:12 PM  
1 votes:

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


As already mentioned, XeF8 is possible, but not NeF8.

On the other hand, "Things I Won't Work With" features some other "interesting" fluorine compounds, especially ClF3 (chlorine trifluoride). Anything that can set sand and asbestos (!) on fire isn't going to be something I want to be around.
2013-04-11 03:07:12 PM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: But when McCarthy gave SNAP approval to HFO-1234yf, her office never mentioned the tests conducted by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.

Yea. Probably because Benz is the only company that's ever managed to actually produce that problem in all the tests that have been performed.

It's almost as if they created a test with a desired outcome to avoid having to begin using a product that's significantly costlier than the one they've been using...


From DuPont's website:

Daimler testing did not involve true crash conditions.

Daimler did not perform actual crash tests and, in fact, there have not been any documented cases of actual vehicle crash tests by any party where HFO-1234yf ignited.  To our knowledge, no OEM has been able to replicate the Daimler testing results to date, and we do not believe Daimler has incorporated their test results into a risk assessment.

The Daimler test involved a number of artificial and exaggerated scenarios rather than actual crash testing or real-life test conditions.  For example, the test used a special valve close to the engine block that sprayed a vaporized mist of refrigerant plus oil directly onto a hot engine surface that had been heated significantly above normal car engine surface temperatures.  Normal crash conditions would likely generate a sudden, random dispersal of the refrigerant under the hood, rather than an aimed spray.  Also, in a sudden release, the refrigerant would be released from multiple locations and quickly diluted with air.

Further, Daimler testing appears not to have followed industry recommendations for safe use of HFO-1234yf (ISO 13043 and SAE J639), such as re-routing refrigerant lines away from hot surfaces and shielding hot surfaces. Unfortunately, unlike prior related industry testing, Daimler's recent test results were not publicly presented to industry peers and stakeholders that have studied HFO-1234yf for the past four years to allow a full balanced review.  DuPont has offered to provide technical expertise to work with Daimler and other OEMs to resolve questions about the adoption of HFO-1234yf as a more sustainable automotive refrigerant, in time to meet the requirements of the MAC Directive by January 1, 2013


http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/test_results/daimler_testing. ht ml
GBB
2013-04-11 03:01:10 PM  
1 votes:
i4.ytimg.com
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
2013-04-11 03:00:36 PM  
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...


Keep it inside the pipes and everything is fine. Plain old butane and propane actually work quite nicely as refrigerants, are not particularly toxic, and do not damage the ozone layer if they do leak out.

Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!
2013-04-11 02:48:04 PM  
1 votes:
it's protecting the environment, the removal of your face improves the environment.
2013-04-11 02:44:02 PM  
1 votes:
In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.
2013-04-11 02:43:50 PM  
1 votes:
Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.
2013-04-11 02:43:49 PM  
1 votes:

Sgygus: Does it kill cancer?


Yes. And the rest of your cells.
2013-04-11 02:42:22 PM  
1 votes:
Well really, a small percentage of the population certainly deserves to have their cars explode.  What's a few charred corpses against the apparently and evident damage we've caused to mother nature?
 
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