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(Daily Mail)   Climate-friendly refrigerant is more deadly than hydrogen cyanide and will BURN YOUR FACE OFF   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 156
    More: Scary, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, Public Works Committee, statutory authority, Americans for Limited Government, Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, A/T/S, Daimler AG, auto show  
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13079 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 2:36 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 01:50:18 PM  
So, not just climate friendly, but TOTALLY AWESOME!
 
2013-04-11 02:27:13 PM  
"Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps'

Well I guess that means shes three times worse the Hitler...
 
2013-04-11 02:37:48 PM  
So climate friendly, but not FACE friendly - got it
 
2013-04-11 02:39:09 PM  
Totally worth it.

Have you ever driven a black car in the southwest during the summer with no A/C?
 
2013-04-11 02:39:22 PM  
Does it kill cancer?
 
2013-04-11 02:41:06 PM  
FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous effective than cyanide used in Nazi death camps

The Daily Mail subs must have been asleep to let that lapse from the house style go through.
 
2013-04-11 02:41:33 PM  
Marion, don't look at the refrigerator. Shut your eyes, Marion. Don't look at it, no matter what happens!
 
2013-04-11 02:42:22 PM  
Well really, a small percentage of the population certainly deserves to have their cars explode.  What's a few charred corpses against the apparently and evident damage we've caused to mother nature?
 
2013-04-11 02:43:49 PM  

Sgygus: Does it kill cancer?


Yes. And the rest of your cells.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:50 PM  
Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:55 PM  
I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed
 
2013-04-11 02:44:02 PM  
In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.
 
2013-04-11 02:46:48 PM  

RY28: In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.


When I make that gas all I do is clear out the restaurant.
 
2013-04-11 02:47:47 PM  
From Wikipedia:
Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle. In addition several independent authorities evaluated the safety of the product in vehicles and some of them concluded that it was as safe to use as R134a, the product in use in cars today. In the atmosphere, HFO-1234yf degrades to trifluoroacetic acid,[8] which is a mildly phytotoxic[9] strong organic acid[10] with no known degradation mechanism in water. In case of fire it can release highly corrosive and toxic hydrogen fluoride.
 
2013-04-11 02:48:04 PM  
it's protecting the environment, the removal of your face improves the environment.
 
2013-04-11 02:48:07 PM  

Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed


Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...

// yes, I know really cold causes burns, too
// not to mention chemical burns, which can happen at room temperature
 
2013-04-11 02:48:13 PM  
I have always been under the impression the the ozone layer and climate change are two completely different issues. Was I wrong?

I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?
 
2013-04-11 02:50:08 PM  

Riche: Totally worth it.

Have you ever driven a black car anything in the southwest during the summer with no A/C?


FTFY
 
2013-04-11 02:51:38 PM  
Saying "EPA" in a British paper makes me confused.
 
2013-04-11 02:52:12 PM  
The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.
 
2013-04-11 02:52:28 PM  
So, win-win?
 
2013-04-11 02:54:13 PM  
Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php
 
2013-04-11 02:54:42 PM  
it releases hydrofluoric acid?

0.tqn.com

Approves!
 
2013-04-11 02:54:48 PM  

Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed


Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited.  R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA  test it that way.  These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing.  It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world.  Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.
 
2013-04-11 02:54:52 PM  
I feel that cars should explode more. I can't remember the last time I saw a car explode like they do in the movies. I will be better able to defend my home and family if I can make the bad guys cars explode when I riddle them with gunfire like they do in the video games.
 
2013-04-11 02:55:14 PM  
Was expecting Anhydrous Ammonia

Do a GIS for Anhydrous Ammonia injuries if you want to see pics.
 
2013-04-11 02:56:17 PM  

Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.


I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.
 
2013-04-11 02:56:55 PM  

Sgygus: Does it kill cancer?


Yes. And everything else.

/ Not just hydrogen fluoride, but flaming hydrogen fluoride. That's a two-fer
 
2013-04-11 02:58:54 PM  
FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps.

I need to know how the author quantifies a unit of danger before I can proceed with my outrage.
 
2013-04-11 03:00:05 PM  
Cybernetic:

Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

It'll dissolve the corpse and the tub & floor underneath it.

But what happens when you drink this coolant straight from the jug?
 
2013-04-11 03:00:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...


Keep it inside the pipes and everything is fine. Plain old butane and propane actually work quite nicely as refrigerants, are not particularly toxic, and do not damage the ozone layer if they do leak out.

Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!
 
2013-04-11 03:00:56 PM  
After a little looking around and reading actual information instead of sensationalist crap, no wonder we call it the Daily Fail.
1. The R1234yf might be flammable under the right (wrong) circumstances.

2. The idea of using CO2 is not settled, because of the danger of excess CO2 in the passenger compartment, unless they build a more complicated (expensive) heat exchanger.

3. The other proposed replacement was R152a, which is more flammable than R1234yf.
 
GBB
2013-04-11 03:01:10 PM  
i4.ytimg.com
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
 
2013-04-11 03:01:20 PM  
enemiesofreason.co.uk
They bought the Mercedes, they knew what they were getting.
 
2013-04-11 03:04:10 PM  
But when McCarthy gave SNAP approval to HFO-1234yf, her office never mentioned the tests conducted by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.

Yea. Probably because Benz is the only company that's ever managed to actually produce that problem in all the tests that have been performed.

It's almost as if they created a test with a desired outcome to avoid having to begin using a product that's significantly costlier than the one they've been using...
 
2013-04-11 03:07:12 PM  

skozlaw: But when McCarthy gave SNAP approval to HFO-1234yf, her office never mentioned the tests conducted by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.

Yea. Probably because Benz is the only company that's ever managed to actually produce that problem in all the tests that have been performed.

It's almost as if they created a test with a desired outcome to avoid having to begin using a product that's significantly costlier than the one they've been using...


From DuPont's website:

Daimler testing did not involve true crash conditions.

Daimler did not perform actual crash tests and, in fact, there have not been any documented cases of actual vehicle crash tests by any party where HFO-1234yf ignited.  To our knowledge, no OEM has been able to replicate the Daimler testing results to date, and we do not believe Daimler has incorporated their test results into a risk assessment.

The Daimler test involved a number of artificial and exaggerated scenarios rather than actual crash testing or real-life test conditions.  For example, the test used a special valve close to the engine block that sprayed a vaporized mist of refrigerant plus oil directly onto a hot engine surface that had been heated significantly above normal car engine surface temperatures.  Normal crash conditions would likely generate a sudden, random dispersal of the refrigerant under the hood, rather than an aimed spray.  Also, in a sudden release, the refrigerant would be released from multiple locations and quickly diluted with air.

Further, Daimler testing appears not to have followed industry recommendations for safe use of HFO-1234yf (ISO 13043 and SAE J639), such as re-routing refrigerant lines away from hot surfaces and shielding hot surfaces. Unfortunately, unlike prior related industry testing, Daimler's recent test results were not publicly presented to industry peers and stakeholders that have studied HFO-1234yf for the past four years to allow a full balanced review.  DuPont has offered to provide technical expertise to work with Daimler and other OEMs to resolve questions about the adoption of HFO-1234yf as a more sustainable automotive refrigerant, in time to meet the requirements of the MAC Directive by January 1, 2013


http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/test_results/daimler_testing. ht ml
 
2013-04-11 03:08:25 PM  

hitlersbrain: I feel that cars should explode more. I can't remember the last time I saw a car explode like they do in the movies. I will be better able to defend my home and family if I can make the bad guys cars explode when I riddle them with gunfire like they do in the video games.



Plus entertainment value. It's boring being stuck in a huge traffic jam where the payoff is a couple of dented cars on the shoulder.
 
2013-04-11 03:09:30 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!


R-134a is not dangerous unless it's compressed in which case it can freeze your skin. Aside from it displacing oxygen, there is no reason it wouldn't be safe coming out of a duster.

Suddenly popping a high pressure cap off and getting sprayed with the still-liquified coolant = bad
Spraying yourself with a gentle mist from a duster = no problem

/ You also have to turn the canister upside down to extract it from the can.
 
2013-04-11 03:11:24 PM  
Cool...

beyondthemarquee.com
 
2013-04-11 03:12:29 PM  
Might as well us propane in your car's AC system.  You'll still burn to death in an accident, but it's a much cheaper way to die.
 
2013-04-11 03:13:35 PM  
Daimler, which had put the refrigerant in hundreds of its 2013 high-end SL roadsters, recalled all of them.

Phhht!  Rich people problems.
 
2013-04-11 03:15:24 PM  

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Teflon scares you?
 
2013-04-11 03:16:09 PM  

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?


No, you can't have NeF8. Not yours.

Fluorine will make stable compounds with xenon, which in reality is pretty slutty for a "noble" gas. It'll bind with krypton, too, but not very stably. It'll also "bind" with argon, if you call "staying in an ordered lattice at cryogenic temperatures for the sake of the kids" "binding".

If you're concerned about the hazardous properties of the elements that compose a compound, I hope to hell that you never have to deal with table salt.

The Daily Fail is attention-whoring here for the most part; all those horrid toxic products will also appear if you propel atomized oil against an igniter with R-134a, or good old non-toxic ozone-destroying dichlorodifluoromethane. I am a bit concerned about the trifluoroacetic acid decomposition product, though. I'd be much happier sticking with R-134a for legacy systems and moving new ones to CO2, although I thought there were dire practical barriers to small-scale CO2-based refrigeration.
 
2013-04-11 03:24:44 PM  
Well, isn't the answer to keep it away from your face?
 
2013-04-11 03:27:41 PM  

palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Calcium fluoride. It's a rock.

YoungLochinvar: Teflon scares you?


Yes, if you get it too hot or if you look at the precursor chemicals used to produce it.

skozlaw: R-134a is not dangerous unless it's compressed in which case it can freeze your skin. Aside from it displacing oxygen, there is no reason it wouldn't be safe coming out of a duster.


The restrictions on refrigerant release are not for personal safety; they're an environmental issue. Originally the concern was ozone depletion, but even the ozone-safe refrigerants tend to have high global warming potentials.
 
2013-04-11 03:29:50 PM  
I still have my massive stash of 30 pound cylinders of R-12 as well as a number of cases of cans...all stockpiled before the ban before 1992...so there.
 
2013-04-11 03:30:21 PM  
Fark me I hate that sight. Acting all self-righteous when it comes to retard-right-wing garbage, then HEY LOOK AT THOSE HUGE TITS ON THAT ACTRESS IN A BIKINI!!!!

/Wanker
//Twat
///Banger?
 
2013-04-11 03:34:28 PM  
I'm totally gonna trust a publication that thinks this guy is a climate science "expert":

images.smh.com.au
 
2013-04-11 03:34:38 PM  
From what I hear the car company that is hiding behind the group funding these anti-refrigerent ads is going to slapped with a nasty slander lawsuit similar to how Dateline NBC was sued for putting rocket motors on side saddle gas tanks to start fires.

This car company apparently made a bad bet that this refrigerant wouldn't make it to market, so their only hope now is to make it look EBIL.
 
2013-04-11 03:39:17 PM  
Wow, fluorine sure has a bad reputation around here. The same reactivity and tiny atomic size that give rise to the hazards of fluorine gas and hydrofluoric acid also mean that many fluorochemical products are extremely stable. They're used as stain blockers in clothing, carpet, and upholstery applications. They're used to make o-rings for some applications with extreme conditions such as acidity or temperature. And of course everyone routinely enjoys their non-stick cookware which is literally coated in fluorochemicals (polytetrafluoroethylene).

Of course, when you heat the crap out of most fluorochemicals, they break down and potentially liberate some hazardous products -- not only are F2 and HF hazardous, but hexafluoroacetone and perfluoroisobutylene have some crazy low exposure limits. Fortunately, an international automotive engineering society has investigated whether releasing this refrigerant into a car's engine compartment qualifies as heating the crap out of it:

Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle.
 
2013-04-11 03:44:36 PM  
i50.tinypic.com

I don't think they bolded the "engine fires" enough.
 
2013-04-11 03:47:38 PM  

Egoy3k: I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?


Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.

That isn't the primary problem with the ozone hole, which is mostly about the fact that some of those things that absorb UV are human skin, which becomes cancerous. And in trying to fix that, we're replacing CFCs (which actually may have helped cause stratospheric cooling) with other compounds that are highly effective greenhouse gases.

Those compounds aren't intended to be released into the atmosphere at all (ideally; they're working fluids, more like your car's oil, and they're not supposed to be used up) but escapes do happen. They're not the biggest part of the problem, though denialists like to point it out because... well, because they'll take up any position, regardless of relevance or contradictions with their other positions, as long as they think it makes hippies look bad.
 
2013-04-11 03:50:22 PM  
I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?
 
2013-04-11 03:53:35 PM  
Well, this is the EPA, more worried about protecting the environment. They are not as concerned about those dirty humans getting hurt.

If this had been part of the Consumer Protection Agency or something like that, then we would have a real issue.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:05 PM  

reductive: And of course everyone routinely enjoys their non-stick cookware which is literally coated in fluorochemicals

well seasoned cast iron or one of the new silicon-based materials.

I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:12 PM  

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


As already mentioned, XeF8 is possible, but not NeF8.

On the other hand, "Things I Won't Work With" features some other "interesting" fluorine compounds, especially ClF3 (chlorine trifluoride). Anything that can set sand and asbestos (!) on fire isn't going to be something I want to be around.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:22 PM  

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


You might want to treat your toothpaste tube with extreme care then.
 
2013-04-11 03:55:57 PM  

tricycleracer: The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.


R-134a came along just when the R-12 patents ran out too.

NH3 should be used everywhere.  If they're  going toxic, might as well use a good one.  And "leaks" shouldn't be the only environmental concern.  Efficiency of the cycle (i.e. less fuel burned to run the compressor) will do more to help the environment than changing the CFC content and atmospheric lifetime.
 
2013-04-11 03:57:42 PM  

xria: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

You might want to treat your toothpaste tube with extreme care then.


It's a Godless commie plot.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-11 04:01:00 PM  

dfenstrate: I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?


Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.
 
2013-04-11 04:04:15 PM  

Egoy3k: I have always been under the impression the the ozone layer and climate change are two completely different issues. Was I wrong?

I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?


Many of the chemicals that killed the ozone layer were also very strong "greenhouse gases". Many of their replacements weren't quite as bad for ozone, but were even worse "greenhouse gases".

Apparently all the really cool chemicals hate the atmosphere...
 
2013-04-11 04:04:16 PM  
Reduction of the human population, especially the portion what engages in conspicuous consumption of luxury goods such as climate controlled Mercedes SUV's, is also green and burning humans are a renewable resource.  So what's the problem?
 
2013-04-11 04:08:05 PM  

palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


I manage, somehow, to maintain my composure in the presence of teflon.
 
2013-04-11 04:11:00 PM  

Ivo Shandor: I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.


My cookware has a rare non-stick coating. You've probably never heard of it.
 
2013-04-11 04:17:09 PM  
SEE???

We NEED government regulators to protect and save us from the evil capitalist corporations who don't are about anything but money!

McCarthy for EPA!

/You go, girl!
 
2013-04-11 04:18:27 PM  

tennyson: Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.


OK thanks. I am aware of the main problems with CFCs it just seemed odd that they characterized this as a climate issue. I don't normally think of the Ozone layer as a climate issue. If anything I would think that the loss of efficiency in older refrigeration systems designed to use a different refrigerant would offset any gains made. Also ammonia isn't exactly pleasant stuff either and a lot of industrial coolers use ammonia now.

I'm not an HVAC guy but I still remember my old Carnot cycle P-V charts from thermodynamics.
 
2013-04-11 04:25:17 PM  
Fark the environment. I'm hot.

Or, will be hot if winter ever ends which keeps looking less likely every day.
 
2013-04-11 04:30:50 PM  

humanshrapnel: dfenstrate: I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?

Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.


About 6% less efficient with same components.
 
2013-04-11 04:36:27 PM  

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Look up Uranium Hexafluride.
 
2013-04-11 04:37:58 PM  
So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?
 
2013-04-11 04:38:38 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...

// yes, I know really cold causes burns, too
// not to mention chemical burns, which can happen at room temperature

speaking as a person recovering from Chlorine Gas induced chemical pneumonia, I can vigorously attest to this.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:01 PM  

Beerguy: Was expecting Anhydrous Ammonia

Do a GIS for Anhydrous Ammonia injuries if you want to see pics.


Don't need to. I grew up in a county full of particularly retarded meth heads, I've already seen pics (and in a couple of cases I've seen the people themselves) of what it can do.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:19 PM  
Why did she approve it.  Probably the bribe the lobbies dropped her to get her on board.  These people are all easily corruptible and generally couldn't check the oil in their car.
 
2013-04-11 04:49:51 PM  

Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?



No, these are patented by DuPont and Honeywell, and they spent millions lobbying our government protectors.

They are safe.


/Don't you care about the ozone layer?
//And expiring patents?
///And the children?
 
2013-04-11 04:57:30 PM  

THX 1138: FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps.

I need to know how the author quantifies a unit of danger before I can proceed with my outrage.


I for one did not realize that there were varying levels of "deadly". That's a pretty final state, in my mind.

"This one will kill you but this one will kill you even deader!"
 
2013-04-11 05:00:22 PM  
I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.
 
2013-04-11 05:00:31 PM  

Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?


You mean ammonia?
 
2013-04-11 05:02:17 PM  

Tellingthem: "Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps'

Well I guess that means shes three times worse the Hitler...


Yeah - they lost me right there.
 
2013-04-11 05:03:20 PM  

Turbo6inKY: Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited.  R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA  test it that way.  These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing.  It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world.  Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.


This is the car company in question.
 
2013-04-11 05:04:34 PM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?

You mean ammonia?


Sulfur dioxide and methyl chloride were also used.
 
2013-04-11 05:16:57 PM  

maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.


so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew
 
2013-04-11 05:25:41 PM  
Sounds a lot like the MTBE fiasco.
It was supposed to be a great gasoline additive until it started showing up in groundwater everywhere.

Adoption of the MTBE mandate was 100% politically motivated.
MTBE ended up poisoning 100's of drinking water aquifers.
 
2013-04-11 05:26:37 PM  

Ivo Shandor: I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.


You're hilarious! Good stuff... I'm imagining your efforts to use silicone in situations where teflon presented a legitimate hazard -- such as in a 550F oven, where your silicone bakeware has already melted, spilling its contents all over the oven's heating element and producing a fire.

Of course impoverished Ugandan children aren't enjoying their nonstick cookware; it's really helpful to call me out on my usage of "everyone" rather than the substance of the comment. (The substance is fluorochemical applications have a long track record of relative safety). But yeah, your cast iron pan is "nonstick." Hilarious!
 
2013-04-11 05:29:05 PM  

mizchief: Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.


Just FYI, In the future you can stop right there. No one is paying any attention after that.
 
2013-04-11 05:30:42 PM  

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Fluorocarbon (aka FKM/Viton) and fluorosilicone (FVMQ) aren't very scary.

Well, there was that one time with the space shuttle...
 
2013-04-11 05:34:58 PM  
Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.
 
2013-04-11 05:36:18 PM  
I like to get worked up as much as the next guy but this article seems like a red herring.

According to an SAE International presentation, "Flammability testing at Hughes, Ineris, and Exponent labs have demonstrated the difficulty in igniting the HFO-1234yf refrigerant under the most severe testing conditions."  The presentation also states that "Risk assessment indicates a very low probability that an accidental release of refrigerant creates a sufficient concentration at the same time and location as a sufficient ignition source."   The risk assessments concluded that HFO-1234yf can be safely used in mobile air-conditioning. Safety standards have been published and address safe use guidelines.

http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/

http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp?id=1946&title=Honeywell+and+BAM + refute+risky+HFO-1234yf+claims">http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp ?id=1946&title=Honeywell+and+BAM+ refute+risky+HFO-1234yf+claims

I'm guessing the bad findings were rigged so they would not have to make expensive changes to their factories.
 
2013-04-11 05:39:45 PM  

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.


Well, I know refrigeration happens by compressing a gas and then letting it expand. Water is a liquid (at STP) and is really hard to compress. Also, it's very corrosive.
 
2013-04-11 05:42:23 PM  

CommiePuddin: Well, isn't the answer to keep it away from your face?


Sure.  Until your refrigerant starts leaking into the air stream.
 
2013-04-11 05:47:50 PM  

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high?


Short answer: yes. The freezing point also rules it out for many applications.

Water can be used as a refrigerant in an absorption chiller, along with a salt such as lithium bromide. Fark didn't like my link so you'll have to look it up yourself.
 
2013-04-11 05:48:09 PM  
I was thinking this was about a thermoacoustic unit blasting Mayhem or some equally face-melting black metal in its resonator.
 
2013-04-11 05:52:44 PM  

thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew


Yea well do you want that in you car?
 
2013-04-11 05:58:14 PM  

maxalt: thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew

Yea well do you want that in you car?


There isn't any HF in the car. HF is a byproduct of combustion between the cooling agent and oil - the question is whether the two can actually ignite under any sort of real-world conditions.
 
2013-04-11 05:59:23 PM  

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


It'll react with Ar, Kr, and Xe, but not Ne or He. Valence electrons are too close to the nucleus.
 
2013-04-11 06:01:36 PM  

maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.


I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.
 
2013-04-11 06:09:48 PM  

orbister: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.


I was just in a hurry to get the line back in operation, I usually used the gloves,PFD material? It's been so long ago but I still have the scar. And you are SOO right read the MSDS carefully.
 
2013-04-11 06:13:58 PM  

orbister: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.



Live long and prosper, friend.
 
2013-04-11 06:16:41 PM  

orbister: I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.


You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.

mizchief: Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.


Huh. Imaginary, you say?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-11 06:18:20 PM  

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.


In a refrigerator you allow a liquid to boil, absorbing heat. You then compress the gas produced, giving you hot gas, and allow that to condense, releasing heat and giving you liquid at a high pressure. You reduce the pressure through a throttle (or if you'd being fancy, a small turbine) to get low pressure liquid ready to boil again.

The "cool" side of the refrigerator therefore works at the boiling point of the refrigerant, given the pressure. For a domestic fridge you want that to be around 0C. Unfortunately the triple point of water is 0.1C, which means that at any temperature below that you get solid <-> gas sublimation, regardless of the pressure.

Anything which changes state from liquid to gas can be used as a refrigerant, but the temperatures and pressures at which it can be used may not be practical or useful.
 
2013-04-11 06:21:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.


Oh yes indeed. Know what the standard treatment for a major HF burn is? If it gets to the bone you get immediate amputation at the next major joint.
 
2013-04-11 06:22:59 PM  

Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.



I did.


upload.wikimedia.org

Fuuuuu...
 
2013-04-11 06:26:41 PM  

hardinparamedic: orbister: I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.


4.bp.blogspot.com

 
2013-04-11 06:27:12 PM  

orbister: Oh yes indeed. Know what the standard treatment for a major HF burn is? If it gets to the bone you get immediate amputation at the next major joint.


Who told you that?

They mix calcium gluconate in a KY slurry at a ratio of 1ml CaGlu to 2ml KY and slather that on the wound every fifteen minutes. Hands get put in gloves filled with the stuff. They'll infiltrate Ca Gluconate into the tissue around the burn too with a tuberculin syringe at a dose of 0.5ml x cm3 area affected. When you get to the hospital, an anesthesiologist will put in an arterial line above the level of the injury and give you a massive dose of calcium gluconate intraarterially for the next few hours.

I've never heard you get immediate amputation.
 
2013-04-11 06:29:10 PM  

Amos Quito: hardinparamedic: orbister: I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.


[4.bp.blogspot.com image 300x300]


rlv.zcache.com

Sodium Flouride is found in Toothpaste. Hydrofluoric Acid is not Sodium Fluoride.
 
2013-04-11 06:34:18 PM  

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: hardinparamedic: orbister: I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.


[4.bp.blogspot.com image 300x300]

[rlv.zcache.com image 400x400]

Sodium Flouride is found in Toothpaste. Hydrofluoric Acid is not Sodium Fluoride.



LEAVE MY TROLLS ALONE!
 
2013-04-11 06:36:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: They mix calcium gluconate in a KY slurry at a ratio of 1ml CaGlu to 2ml KY and slather that on the wound every fifteen minutes. Hands get put in gloves filled with the stuff. They'll infiltrate Ca Gluconate into the tissue around the burn too with a tuberculin syringe at a dose of 0.5ml x cm3 area affected. When you get to the hospital, an anesthesiologist will put in an arterial line above the level of the injury and give you a massive dose of calcium gluconate intraarterially for the next few hours.


That sounds the flesh wound version

I've never heard you get immediate amputation.

Once it's in the bone nothing stops it except lack of bone. Well, that's what they told us. We had the gluconate paste handy for small splashes - luckily I never had to use it.
 
2013-04-11 06:38:14 PM  

skozlaw: Ivo Shandor: Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!

R-134a is not dangerous unless it's compressed in which case it can freeze your skin. Aside from it displacing oxygen, there is no reason it wouldn't be safe coming out of a duster.

Suddenly popping a high pressure cap off and getting sprayed with the still-liquified coolant = bad
Spraying yourself with a gentle mist from a duster = no problem

/ You also have to turn the canister upside down to extract it from the can.


Yeah and the chemicals do a fun seperation in liquid form.
Ill stick with my stockpile of r12 and enjoy the intense cooling power it provides over 134.
 
2013-04-11 06:44:12 PM  

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.




Fuuuuu...


Yeah in addition to being poisonous its also corrosive, an oxidiser, reacts with water, and is radioactive.I wouldnt touch the stuff with a 39&1/2 foot pole.
 
2013-04-11 06:56:14 PM  

Amos Quito: LEAVE MY TROLLS ALONE!


Christ, Amos. Your trolls are lacking these days.
 
2013-04-11 07:00:17 PM  

Oldiron_79: Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


Fuuuuu...

Yeah in addition to being poisonous its also corrosive, an oxidiser, reacts with water, and is radioactive.I wouldnt touch the stuff with a 39&1/2 foot pole.


web.ead.anl.gov

...seemed like a good idea at the time...
 
2013-04-11 07:00:20 PM  

RY28: In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.


Was visiting a BASF plastics plant in Baton Rouge a few years ago. Got to the plant and wasn't allowed in to see my contact there. They had a phosgene leak from a failure of a canned motor pump an hour or so before.

Was happy to wait upwind.

/CSB
 
2013-04-11 07:03:21 PM  

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: LEAVE MY TROLLS ALONE!

Christ, Amos. Your trolls are lacking these days.



Sorry. It's some kind of nasty virus.

Hacking cough, sneezing, itchy sinuses, watery eyes...  seems to be dragging on forever.
 
2013-04-11 07:10:10 PM  
Step 1. Push through your industrial refrigerant with craptons of lobbying, knowing full well it's uselessly dangerous to consumers but hiding the fact anyway. Step 2. Profit. Step 3. Pay for public outcry stories to stick it to the agency that otherwise gets in the way of your profits. Step 4. More profit + head of EPA next time there's a Republican president.
 
2013-04-11 07:11:24 PM  

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 144x161]

Fuuuuu...


You goddamn Jew-hating bastard.

I'm laughing my ass off. Well done.

// you just may be all right after all
// just...not in /politics, k?
 
2013-04-11 07:29:56 PM  
When I was in college, I was in a hurry to move out of the dorm so I "defrosted" my mini-fridge with a screwdriver and cut the coolant line on the freezer compartment, which sprayed a mist in my face.

Fortunately, there were no lasting side Jack and Chrissy were trying to hide from Mr. Roper because they were late on the rent.
 
2013-04-11 08:00:37 PM  

maxalt: thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew

Yea well do you want that in you car?


there are a lot of things in my car that can hurt me
 
2013-04-11 08:06:30 PM  
...new car air-conditioning refrigerant that caused engine fires in Mercedes-Benz tests.

Rich people problems.
 
2013-04-11 08:20:47 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 144x161]

Fuuuuu...


You goddamn Jew-hating bastard.

I'm laughing my ass off. Well done.

// you just may be all right after all
// just...not in /politics, k?



That may well be the most complimentary insult I have ever enjoyed - at least on Fark.

Thank you, kind sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

;-)
 
2013-04-11 08:21:49 PM  
fark it, let's go back to standard R-12 that isn't very environmentally friendly, but not poisonous.  Wait, what's that?  When it's heated it turns to phosgene gas?

Crap, guess the new refrigerants aren't any more dangerous than the old ones.
 
2013-04-11 08:24:03 PM  

tricycleracer: The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.


Wonder about that.. used to have R12 as automotive refrigerant.. replaced with R134a.. Window AC,s went from R12 & R22 to R134a,,  residential was R12, R500, R22... replaced by R410, also known as Puron (Carrier )... R123 is a replacement for R11 in chillers...
 
2013-04-11 08:25:22 PM  
Oldiron_79:

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.

Fuuuuu...

Yeah in addition to being poisonous its also corrosive, an oxidiser, reacts with water, and is radioactive.I wouldnt touch the stuff with a 39&1/2 foot pole.


One of the more fun things about first processing or reprocessing nuclear fuel (UREX / PUREX reprocessing) is that it involves a lot of the stuff, and there's not a lot you can do with it afterwards. In non-nuclear applications you can run it through a plasma torch and reduce it to more benign compounds, but with reprocessing waste it's invariably contaminated with radiologically "hot" stuff that you still have to deal with.

So you basically have this "aqua regia" that all you can do is store. At the Hanford Site they have millions of gallons of the stuff in big underground tanks, and we spend billions every year just keeping it from seeping into the Columbia river.

Anytime someone goes on about "closed cycle" reprocessing of nuclear waste, they probably just think you can shovel fuel rods from one reactor to another and magic happens.
 
2013-04-11 08:29:00 PM  

Fissile: Might as well us propane in your car's AC system.  You'll still burn to death in an accident, but it's a much cheaper way to die.


R409a has propane in it...
 
2013-04-11 08:31:34 PM  

Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


Chlorine Trifluoride is another scary one.
 
2013-04-11 08:36:26 PM  

hardinparamedic: Sodium Flouride is found in Toothpaste. Hydrofluoric Acid is not Sodium Fluoride.


I remember from years ago that fluoride toothpaste used to have stannous fluoride rather than sodium fluoride. I wonder when they switched.
 
2013-04-11 08:49:17 PM  

Cybernetic: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.

Chlorine Trifluoride is another scary one.


Wiki:


"The ability to surpass the oxidizing ability of oxygen leads to extreme corrosivity against oxide-containing materials often thought as incombustible. Chlorine trifluoride and gases like it have been reported to ignite sand, asbestos, and other highly fire-retardant materials"  [...]  " It ignites glass on contact [...] " It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water - with which it reacts explosively."


/Better living through chemistry
 
2013-04-11 08:52:37 PM  

Amos Quito: Cybernetic: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.

Chlorine Trifluoride is another scary one.

Wiki:


"The ability to surpass the oxidizing ability of oxygen leads to extreme corrosivity against oxide-containing materials often thought as incombustible. Chlorine trifluoride and gases like it have been reported to ignite sand, asbestos, and other highly fire-retardant materials"  [...]  " It ignites glass on contact [...] " It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water - with which it reacts explosively."


/Better living through chemistry


How do you surpass the oxidizing ability of oxygen? Thats like dividing by zero.
 
2013-04-11 09:04:00 PM  
Melted face. For some people it would be an improvement.
 
2013-04-11 09:22:17 PM  

maxheck: Anytime someone goes on about "closed cycle" reprocessing of nuclear waste, they probably just think you can shovel fuel rods from one reactor to another and magic happens.


You can do that with a sufficiently advanced reactor design. You can even mix in some depleted uranium if you want.
 
2013-04-11 09:29:55 PM  
AC is bad, stupid, unsustainable technology - it's just a way for fat, out-of-shape white people to live places where they don't belong.
 
2013-04-11 09:32:35 PM  

palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


prozac? teflon? terrifying!
 
2013-04-11 09:34:32 PM  

Oldiron_79: How do you surpass the oxidizing ability of oxygen? Thats like dividing by zero.


find a periodic table. notice shiat to the right of oxygen? circle these items. you have found stronger oxidizers than oxygen. go phuq yourself. thank you.
 
2013-04-11 09:46:04 PM  
Ivo Shandor:

maxheck: Anytime someone goes on about "closed cycle" reprocessing of nuclear waste, they probably just think you can shovel fuel rods from one reactor to another and magic happens.

You can do that with a sufficiently advanced reactor design. You can even mix in some depleted uranium if you want.


I'm not going to say that we couldn't do something like that at some point, but you gave me blog posts for a technology that hasn't produced in 30 years. The US has been trying to close the cycle for 60+ years, heck, the French made it a national priority and threw their entire energy industry at it 40 years ago and they *still* send the useful stuff to the Japanese and ship the waste to Russia to deal with in classic Russian fashion (dump it in a hole in Siberia.) Even they are looking at making their own "Yucca Mountain" style waste dump with not much more success than the US had.

Currently working technologies create a crapton of mid-level chemical waste for every pound of recovered fuel. That sort of gets glossed over sometimes because people focus on the spent fuel.

/ would love to see that solved.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:04 PM  
More DuPont bullshiat. A propane-butane mix is less toxic, more effective as a refrigerant, and greener than any of this crap. Yes, there is a chance of a fireball, but this fireball would be a short poof more than a boom, and a order of magnitude less fire-ey than the fires caused by the fuel in the car anyway. But DuPont can't patent that.

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/Default.asp?id=14&t=refriger an t&Trying=ON


Use this in the whole fleet. 40 or so units. Five bucks a can.
 
2013-04-11 09:55:04 PM  

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Perfluorocarbon is SO scary that it's used in experimental and neonatal medicine as a liquid ventilatory medium!

Look at it dissolve this rat before your very eyes!

img.zidbits.com

Fluoride compounds are incredibly deadly to human beings.

greggordon.org

This post brought to you by the international society for sarcasm. LIKE WE NEED YOUR HELP!
 
2013-04-11 09:57:18 PM  

jonmurr: A propane-butane mix is less toxic, more effective as a refrigerant, and greener than any of this crap. Yes, there is a chance of a fireball, but this fireball would be a short poof more than a boom, and a order of magnitude less fire-ey than the fires caused by the fuel in the car anyway. But DuPont can't patent that.


2.bp.blogspot.com

cdn1.grupos.emagister.com
 
2013-04-11 10:10:23 PM  
Going back to the original premise... I, for one, am glad that there are no liquids in my automobile that might explode in a face-melting fireball when sprayed all over the engine.
 
2013-04-11 10:15:10 PM  
One the one hand, we do have the issue of the chemicals being newly patented, and their purveyors aren't going to be fully straight about the hazards.

On the other hand:

* TFA gets the names of HFO-1234yf and R134a wrong.
* It's the Daily Fail.
 
2013-04-11 10:54:03 PM  
I so need to design a thermo-electric heat pump... no more chemicals!
 
2013-04-11 10:55:56 PM  

Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 144x161]

Fuuuuu...

FFFFFFU......

/FTFY
 
2013-04-11 10:59:52 PM  

Oldiron_79: Yeah in addition to being poisonous its also corrosive, an oxidiser, reacts with water, and is radioactive.I wouldnt touch the stuff with a 39&1/2 foot pole.


I passed a truckload of it on the interstate a few years back. I've seen plenty of trucks plackarded as "corrosive", "oxidizer", even a few with the "radioactive" tag -- but this was the first time I saw one that said "FISSILE".

I can't describe exactly how I felt sharing the interstate with that, but I will say that my idea of "safe and prudent speed" was suddenly quite a bit higher, and remained so until that truck vanished from my rear view.

Not even a police escort. WTF, people?
 
2013-04-11 11:05:03 PM  
Daily Fail strikes again.
 
2013-04-11 11:14:40 PM  

tgambitg: Amos Quito: Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.


I did.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 144x161]

Fuuuuu...FFFFFFU......

/FTFY



LOL!

Thank you for correcting my feng shui.
 
2013-04-11 11:15:49 PM  

reductive: Wow, fluorine sure has a bad reputation around here. The same reactivity and tiny atomic size that give rise to the hazards of fluorine gas and hydrofluoric acid also mean that many fluorochemical products are extremely stable. They're used as stain blockers in clothing, carpet, and upholstery applications. They're used to make o-rings for some applications with extreme conditions such as acidity or temperature. And of course everyone routinely enjoys their non-stick cookware which is literally coated in fluorochemicals (polytetrafluoroethylene).


And don't forget about a million different pharmaceuticals. I sometimes think biochemists working on medicines are all in a secret society, and have to put an "F" in every compound they make as part of their membership pact.

Of course, when you heat the crap out of most fluorochemicals, they break down and potentially liberate some hazardous products -- not only are F2 and HF hazardous, but hexafluoroacetone and perfluoroisobutylene have some crazy low exposure limits. Fortunately, an international automotive engineering society has investigated whether releasing this refrigerant into a car's engine compartment qualifies as heating the crap out of it:

Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle.


And in abnormal conditions sufficient to ignite it, you might more wisely turn your attention to the GALLONS OF FARKING GASOLINE that are nearby.
 
2013-04-11 11:18:07 PM  

utah dude: palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

prozac? teflon? terrifying!



Prozac? Terrifying?

Yes SSRI!


/Took Prozac
//Ate my best friend's dog
///NOT EVEN ONCE!
 
2013-04-11 11:41:06 PM  

DubtodaIll: Well really, a small percentage of the population certainly deserves to have their cars explode.  What's a few charred corpses against the apparently and evident damage we've caused to mother nature?


It's only fair.
 
2013-04-11 11:41:35 PM  

Amos Quito: //Ate my best friend's dog


So you had North Korean Kraft Dinner?
 
2013-04-11 11:47:30 PM  

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


This guy is a great writer. Thanks for this. Site is bookmarked.
 
2013-04-12 12:06:30 AM  

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: //Ate my best friend's dog

So you had North Korean Kraft Dinner?



Truth be told, I think she rather enjoyed it.

Didn't reciprocate, though.

:-(


;-)
 
2013-04-12 12:20:55 AM  

mizchief: Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.

This has been the case with home HVAC for decades. Every few years DuPont convinces the EPA that their new refrigerant  they they hold the patent for, is better for the environment, however they always require to be ran at higher pressures which means you have to buy new equipment to use it as well. Problem is that higher pressure is prone to more leaking, so even if the new cfc is better for the environment by volume than the old stuff, more of it gets released into the atmosphere.  Seems to happen just as the patents on the old stuff are about to expire. Surely it's all about saving the environment and has nothing to do with the lobbying efforts.


Question are you retarded or trolling?

Or both?
 
2013-04-12 12:54:35 AM  

Egoy3k: I have always been under the impression the the ozone layer and climate change are two completely different issues. Was I wrong?

I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?


They're not related in that the ozone hole doesn't cause climate change (or vice versa); but they're related in that pollutants of various sorts contribute to both.

Does that answer your question or are you merely stirring the pot? ;)
 
2013-04-12 03:01:05 AM  

hardinparamedic: orbister: Oh yes indeed. Know what the standard treatment for a major HF burn is? If it gets to the bone you get immediate amputation at the next major joint.

Who told you that?

They mix calcium gluconate in a KY slurry at a ratio of 1ml CaGlu to 2ml KY and slather that on the wound every fifteen minutes. Hands get put in gloves filled with the stuff. They'll infiltrate Ca Gluconate into the tissue around the burn too with a tuberculin syringe at a dose of 0.5ml x cm3 area affected. When you get to the hospital, an anesthesiologist will put in an arterial line above the level of the injury and give you a massive dose of calcium gluconate intraarterially for the next few hours.

I've never heard you get immediate amputation.



Well, I learned something today. Interesting stuff.
 
2013-04-12 03:12:26 AM  

maxheck: Going back to the original premise... I, for one, am glad that there are no liquids in my automobile that might explode in a face-melting fireball when sprayed all over the engine.


Like gasoline, engine coolant, engine oil, automatic transmission fluid, brake fluid, power steering fluid...
 
2013-04-12 03:24:31 AM  

maxheck: Going back to the original premise... I, for one, am glad that there are no liquids in my automobile that might explode in a face-melting fireball when sprayed all over the engine.


Ooh, and don't forget the battery, which has sulfuric acid and can generate a well-known flame retardant, hydrogen gas.
 
2013-04-12 08:44:15 AM  

Oldiron_79: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

Look up Uranium Hexafluride.



chlorine trifluoride.


"It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."
 
2013-04-12 08:54:16 AM  
The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: maxheck: Going back to the original premise... I, for one, am glad that there are no liquids in my automobile that might explode in a face-melting fireball when sprayed all over the engine.

Ooh, and don't forget the battery, which has sulfuric acid and can generate a well-known flame retardant, hydrogen gas.


I don't think that word means what you think it is meaning
 
2013-04-12 08:54:29 AM  

KyngNothing: Apparently all the really cool chemicals hate the atmosphere...


www.behindthevoiceactors.com
"We haven't entirely nailed down what element it is yet, but I'll tell you this: It's a lively one, and it does NOT like the human skeleton"
 
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