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(Daily Mail)   Climate-friendly refrigerant is more deadly than hydrogen cyanide and will BURN YOUR FACE OFF   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 157
    More: Scary, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, Public Works Committee, statutory authority, Americans for Limited Government, Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, A/T/S, Daimler AG, auto show  
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13061 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 2:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 03:44:36 PM
i50.tinypic.com

I don't think they bolded the "engine fires" enough.
 
2013-04-11 03:47:38 PM

Egoy3k: I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?


Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.

That isn't the primary problem with the ozone hole, which is mostly about the fact that some of those things that absorb UV are human skin, which becomes cancerous. And in trying to fix that, we're replacing CFCs (which actually may have helped cause stratospheric cooling) with other compounds that are highly effective greenhouse gases.

Those compounds aren't intended to be released into the atmosphere at all (ideally; they're working fluids, more like your car's oil, and they're not supposed to be used up) but escapes do happen. They're not the biggest part of the problem, though denialists like to point it out because... well, because they'll take up any position, regardless of relevance or contradictions with their other positions, as long as they think it makes hippies look bad.
 
2013-04-11 03:50:22 PM
I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?
 
2013-04-11 03:53:35 PM
Well, this is the EPA, more worried about protecting the environment. They are not as concerned about those dirty humans getting hurt.

If this had been part of the Consumer Protection Agency or something like that, then we would have a real issue.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:05 PM

reductive: And of course everyone routinely enjoys their non-stick cookware which is literally coated in fluorochemicals

well seasoned cast iron or one of the new silicon-based materials.

I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:12 PM

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


As already mentioned, XeF8 is possible, but not NeF8.

On the other hand, "Things I Won't Work With" features some other "interesting" fluorine compounds, especially ClF3 (chlorine trifluoride). Anything that can set sand and asbestos (!) on fire isn't going to be something I want to be around.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:22 PM

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


You might want to treat your toothpaste tube with extreme care then.
 
2013-04-11 03:55:57 PM

tricycleracer: The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.


R-134a came along just when the R-12 patents ran out too.

NH3 should be used everywhere.  If they're  going toxic, might as well use a good one.  And "leaks" shouldn't be the only environmental concern.  Efficiency of the cycle (i.e. less fuel burned to run the compressor) will do more to help the environment than changing the CFC content and atmospheric lifetime.
 
2013-04-11 03:57:42 PM

xria: palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.

You might want to treat your toothpaste tube with extreme care then.


It's a Godless commie plot.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-11 04:01:00 PM

dfenstrate: I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?


Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.
 
2013-04-11 04:04:15 PM

Egoy3k: I have always been under the impression the the ozone layer and climate change are two completely different issues. Was I wrong?

I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?


Many of the chemicals that killed the ozone layer were also very strong "greenhouse gases". Many of their replacements weren't quite as bad for ozone, but were even worse "greenhouse gases".

Apparently all the really cool chemicals hate the atmosphere...
 
2013-04-11 04:04:16 PM
Reduction of the human population, especially the portion what engages in conspicuous consumption of luxury goods such as climate controlled Mercedes SUV's, is also green and burning humans are a renewable resource.  So what's the problem?
 
2013-04-11 04:08:05 PM

palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


I manage, somehow, to maintain my composure in the presence of teflon.
 
2013-04-11 04:11:00 PM

Ivo Shandor: I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.


My cookware has a rare non-stick coating. You've probably never heard of it.
 
2013-04-11 04:17:09 PM
SEE???

We NEED government regulators to protect and save us from the evil capitalist corporations who don't are about anything but money!

McCarthy for EPA!

/You go, girl!
 
2013-04-11 04:18:27 PM

tennyson: Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.


OK thanks. I am aware of the main problems with CFCs it just seemed odd that they characterized this as a climate issue. I don't normally think of the Ozone layer as a climate issue. If anything I would think that the loss of efficiency in older refrigeration systems designed to use a different refrigerant would offset any gains made. Also ammonia isn't exactly pleasant stuff either and a lot of industrial coolers use ammonia now.

I'm not an HVAC guy but I still remember my old Carnot cycle P-V charts from thermodynamics.
 
2013-04-11 04:25:17 PM
Fark the environment. I'm hot.

Or, will be hot if winter ever ends which keeps looking less likely every day.
 
2013-04-11 04:30:50 PM

humanshrapnel: dfenstrate: I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?

Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.


About 6% less efficient with same components.
 
2013-04-11 04:36:27 PM

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Look up Uranium Hexafluride.
 
2013-04-11 04:37:58 PM
So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?
 
2013-04-11 04:38:38 PM

Dr Dreidel: Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...

// yes, I know really cold causes burns, too
// not to mention chemical burns, which can happen at room temperature

speaking as a person recovering from Chlorine Gas induced chemical pneumonia, I can vigorously attest to this.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:01 PM

Beerguy: Was expecting Anhydrous Ammonia

Do a GIS for Anhydrous Ammonia injuries if you want to see pics.


Don't need to. I grew up in a county full of particularly retarded meth heads, I've already seen pics (and in a couple of cases I've seen the people themselves) of what it can do.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:19 PM
Why did she approve it.  Probably the bribe the lobbies dropped her to get her on board.  These people are all easily corruptible and generally couldn't check the oil in their car.
 
2013-04-11 04:49:51 PM

Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?



No, these are patented by DuPont and Honeywell, and they spent millions lobbying our government protectors.

They are safe.


/Don't you care about the ozone layer?
//And expiring patents?
///And the children?
 
2013-04-11 04:57:30 PM

THX 1138: FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps.

I need to know how the author quantifies a unit of danger before I can proceed with my outrage.


I for one did not realize that there were varying levels of "deadly". That's a pretty final state, in my mind.

"This one will kill you but this one will kill you even deader!"
 
2013-04-11 05:00:22 PM
I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.
 
2013-04-11 05:00:31 PM

Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?


You mean ammonia?
 
2013-04-11 05:02:17 PM

Tellingthem: "Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps'

Well I guess that means shes three times worse the Hitler...


Yeah - they lost me right there.
 
2013-04-11 05:03:20 PM

Turbo6inKY: Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited.  R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA  test it that way.  These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing.  It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world.  Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.


This is the car company in question.
 
2013-04-11 05:04:34 PM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Oldiron_79: So we are back to the toxic and flamable refrigarants of the 1920s that freon replaced?

You mean ammonia?


Sulfur dioxide and methyl chloride were also used.
 
2013-04-11 05:16:57 PM

maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.


so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew
 
2013-04-11 05:20:33 PM
Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.

This has been the case with home HVAC for decades. Every few years DuPont convinces the EPA that their new refrigerant  they they hold the patent for, is better for the environment, however they always require to be ran at higher pressures which means you have to buy new equipment to use it as well. Problem is that higher pressure is prone to more leaking, so even if the new cfc is better for the environment by volume than the old stuff, more of it gets released into the atmosphere.  Seems to happen just as the patents on the old stuff are about to expire. Surely it's all about saving the environment and has nothing to do with the lobbying efforts.
 
2013-04-11 05:25:41 PM
Sounds a lot like the MTBE fiasco.
It was supposed to be a great gasoline additive until it started showing up in groundwater everywhere.

Adoption of the MTBE mandate was 100% politically motivated.
MTBE ended up poisoning 100's of drinking water aquifers.
 
2013-04-11 05:26:37 PM

Ivo Shandor: I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.


You're hilarious! Good stuff... I'm imagining your efforts to use silicone in situations where teflon presented a legitimate hazard -- such as in a 550F oven, where your silicone bakeware has already melted, spilling its contents all over the oven's heating element and producing a fire.

Of course impoverished Ugandan children aren't enjoying their nonstick cookware; it's really helpful to call me out on my usage of "everyone" rather than the substance of the comment. (The substance is fluorochemical applications have a long track record of relative safety). But yeah, your cast iron pan is "nonstick." Hilarious!
 
2013-04-11 05:29:05 PM

mizchief: Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.


Just FYI, In the future you can stop right there. No one is paying any attention after that.
 
2013-04-11 05:30:42 PM

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Fluorocarbon (aka FKM/Viton) and fluorosilicone (FVMQ) aren't very scary.

Well, there was that one time with the space shuttle...
 
2013-04-11 05:34:58 PM
Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.
 
2013-04-11 05:36:18 PM
I like to get worked up as much as the next guy but this article seems like a red herring.

According to an SAE International presentation, "Flammability testing at Hughes, Ineris, and Exponent labs have demonstrated the difficulty in igniting the HFO-1234yf refrigerant under the most severe testing conditions."  The presentation also states that "Risk assessment indicates a very low probability that an accidental release of refrigerant creates a sufficient concentration at the same time and location as a sufficient ignition source."   The risk assessments concluded that HFO-1234yf can be safely used in mobile air-conditioning. Safety standards have been published and address safe use guidelines.

http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/

http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp?id=1946&title=Honeywell+and+BAM + refute+risky+HFO-1234yf+claims">http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp ?id=1946&title=Honeywell+and+BAM+ refute+risky+HFO-1234yf+claims

I'm guessing the bad findings were rigged so they would not have to make expensive changes to their factories.
 
2013-04-11 05:39:45 PM

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.


Well, I know refrigeration happens by compressing a gas and then letting it expand. Water is a liquid (at STP) and is really hard to compress. Also, it's very corrosive.
 
2013-04-11 05:42:23 PM

CommiePuddin: Well, isn't the answer to keep it away from your face?


Sure.  Until your refrigerant starts leaking into the air stream.
 
2013-04-11 05:47:50 PM

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high?


Short answer: yes. The freezing point also rules it out for many applications.

Water can be used as a refrigerant in an absorption chiller, along with a salt such as lithium bromide. Fark didn't like my link so you'll have to look it up yourself.
 
2013-04-11 05:48:09 PM
I was thinking this was about a thermoacoustic unit blasting Mayhem or some equally face-melting black metal in its resonator.
 
2013-04-11 05:52:44 PM

thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew


Yea well do you want that in you car?
 
2013-04-11 05:58:14 PM

maxalt: thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

so...

Industrial chemicals used in crystal etching isn't safe for human consumption?

who knew

Yea well do you want that in you car?


There isn't any HF in the car. HF is a byproduct of combustion between the cooling agent and oil - the question is whether the two can actually ignite under any sort of real-world conditions.
 
2013-04-11 05:59:23 PM

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php


It'll react with Ar, Kr, and Xe, but not Ne or He. Valence electrons are too close to the nucleus.
 
2013-04-11 06:01:36 PM

maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.


I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.
 
2013-04-11 06:09:48 PM

orbister: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.


I was just in a hurry to get the line back in operation, I usually used the gloves,PFD material? It's been so long ago but I still have the scar. And you are SOO right read the MSDS carefully.
 
2013-04-11 06:13:58 PM

orbister: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.



Live long and prosper, friend.
 
2013-04-11 06:16:41 PM

orbister: I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.


You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.

mizchief: Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.


Huh. Imaginary, you say?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-11 06:18:20 PM

Third Leg: Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.


In a refrigerator you allow a liquid to boil, absorbing heat. You then compress the gas produced, giving you hot gas, and allow that to condense, releasing heat and giving you liquid at a high pressure. You reduce the pressure through a throttle (or if you'd being fancy, a small turbine) to get low pressure liquid ready to boil again.

The "cool" side of the refrigerator therefore works at the boiling point of the refrigerant, given the pressure. For a domestic fridge you want that to be around 0C. Unfortunately the triple point of water is 0.1C, which means that at any temperature below that you get solid <-> gas sublimation, regardless of the pressure.

Anything which changes state from liquid to gas can be used as a refrigerant, but the temperatures and pressures at which it can be used may not be practical or useful.
 
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