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(Daily Mail)   Climate-friendly refrigerant is more deadly than hydrogen cyanide and will BURN YOUR FACE OFF   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 157
    More: Scary, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, Public Works Committee, statutory authority, Americans for Limited Government, Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, A/T/S, Daimler AG, auto show  
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13064 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 2:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 01:50:18 PM
So, not just climate friendly, but TOTALLY AWESOME!
 
2013-04-11 02:27:13 PM
"Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps'

Well I guess that means shes three times worse the Hitler...
 
2013-04-11 02:37:48 PM
So climate friendly, but not FACE friendly - got it
 
2013-04-11 02:39:09 PM
Totally worth it.

Have you ever driven a black car in the southwest during the summer with no A/C?
 
2013-04-11 02:39:22 PM
Does it kill cancer?
 
2013-04-11 02:41:06 PM
FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous effective than cyanide used in Nazi death camps

The Daily Mail subs must have been asleep to let that lapse from the house style go through.
 
2013-04-11 02:41:33 PM
Marion, don't look at the refrigerator. Shut your eyes, Marion. Don't look at it, no matter what happens!
 
2013-04-11 02:42:22 PM
Well really, a small percentage of the population certainly deserves to have their cars explode.  What's a few charred corpses against the apparently and evident damage we've caused to mother nature?
 
2013-04-11 02:43:49 PM

Sgygus: Does it kill cancer?


Yes. And the rest of your cells.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:50 PM
Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:55 PM
I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed
 
2013-04-11 02:44:02 PM
In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.
 
2013-04-11 02:46:48 PM

RY28: In before AC newbies start talking about making phosgene gas.


When I make that gas all I do is clear out the restaurant.
 
2013-04-11 02:47:47 PM
From Wikipedia:
Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle. In addition several independent authorities evaluated the safety of the product in vehicles and some of them concluded that it was as safe to use as R134a, the product in use in cars today. In the atmosphere, HFO-1234yf degrades to trifluoroacetic acid,[8] which is a mildly phytotoxic[9] strong organic acid[10] with no known degradation mechanism in water. In case of fire it can release highly corrosive and toxic hydrogen fluoride.
 
2013-04-11 02:48:04 PM
it's protecting the environment, the removal of your face improves the environment.
 
2013-04-11 02:48:07 PM

Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed


Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...

// yes, I know really cold causes burns, too
// not to mention chemical burns, which can happen at room temperature
 
2013-04-11 02:48:13 PM
I have always been under the impression the the ozone layer and climate change are two completely different issues. Was I wrong?

I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?
 
2013-04-11 02:50:08 PM

Riche: Totally worth it.

Have you ever driven a black car anything in the southwest during the summer with no A/C?


FTFY
 
2013-04-11 02:51:38 PM
Saying "EPA" in a British paper makes me confused.
 
2013-04-11 02:52:12 PM
The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.
 
2013-04-11 02:52:28 PM
So, win-win?
 
2013-04-11 02:54:13 PM
Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php
 
2013-04-11 02:54:42 PM
it releases hydrofluoric acid?

0.tqn.com

Approves!
 
2013-04-11 02:54:48 PM

Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed


Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited.  R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA  test it that way.  These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing.  It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world.  Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.
 
2013-04-11 02:54:52 PM
I feel that cars should explode more. I can't remember the last time I saw a car explode like they do in the movies. I will be better able to defend my home and family if I can make the bad guys cars explode when I riddle them with gunfire like they do in the video games.
 
2013-04-11 02:55:14 PM
Was expecting Anhydrous Ammonia

Do a GIS for Anhydrous Ammonia injuries if you want to see pics.
 
2013-04-11 02:56:17 PM

Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.


I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.
 
2013-04-11 02:56:55 PM

Sgygus: Does it kill cancer?


Yes. And everything else.

/ Not just hydrogen fluoride, but flaming hydrogen fluoride. That's a two-fer
 
2013-04-11 02:58:54 PM
FTFA: Flames produce toxic chemicals three times more dangerous than cyanide used in Nazi death camps.

I need to know how the author quantifies a unit of danger before I can proceed with my outrage.
 
2013-04-11 03:00:05 PM
Cybernetic:

Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

It'll dissolve the corpse and the tub & floor underneath it.

But what happens when you drink this coolant straight from the jug?
 
2013-04-11 03:00:36 PM

Dr Dreidel: Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...


Keep it inside the pipes and everything is fine. Plain old butane and propane actually work quite nicely as refrigerants, are not particularly toxic, and do not damage the ozone layer if they do leak out.

Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!
 
2013-04-11 03:00:56 PM
After a little looking around and reading actual information instead of sensationalist crap, no wonder we call it the Daily Fail.
1. The R1234yf might be flammable under the right (wrong) circumstances.

2. The idea of using CO2 is not settled, because of the danger of excess CO2 in the passenger compartment, unless they build a more complicated (expensive) heat exchanger.

3. The other proposed replacement was R152a, which is more flammable than R1234yf.
 
GBB
2013-04-11 03:01:10 PM
i4.ytimg.com
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
 
2013-04-11 03:01:20 PM
enemiesofreason.co.uk
They bought the Mercedes, they knew what they were getting.
 
2013-04-11 03:04:10 PM
But when McCarthy gave SNAP approval to HFO-1234yf, her office never mentioned the tests conducted by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.

Yea. Probably because Benz is the only company that's ever managed to actually produce that problem in all the tests that have been performed.

It's almost as if they created a test with a desired outcome to avoid having to begin using a product that's significantly costlier than the one they've been using...
 
2013-04-11 03:07:12 PM

skozlaw: But when McCarthy gave SNAP approval to HFO-1234yf, her office never mentioned the tests conducted by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.

Yea. Probably because Benz is the only company that's ever managed to actually produce that problem in all the tests that have been performed.

It's almost as if they created a test with a desired outcome to avoid having to begin using a product that's significantly costlier than the one they've been using...


From DuPont's website:

Daimler testing did not involve true crash conditions.

Daimler did not perform actual crash tests and, in fact, there have not been any documented cases of actual vehicle crash tests by any party where HFO-1234yf ignited.  To our knowledge, no OEM has been able to replicate the Daimler testing results to date, and we do not believe Daimler has incorporated their test results into a risk assessment.

The Daimler test involved a number of artificial and exaggerated scenarios rather than actual crash testing or real-life test conditions.  For example, the test used a special valve close to the engine block that sprayed a vaporized mist of refrigerant plus oil directly onto a hot engine surface that had been heated significantly above normal car engine surface temperatures.  Normal crash conditions would likely generate a sudden, random dispersal of the refrigerant under the hood, rather than an aimed spray.  Also, in a sudden release, the refrigerant would be released from multiple locations and quickly diluted with air.

Further, Daimler testing appears not to have followed industry recommendations for safe use of HFO-1234yf (ISO 13043 and SAE J639), such as re-routing refrigerant lines away from hot surfaces and shielding hot surfaces. Unfortunately, unlike prior related industry testing, Daimler's recent test results were not publicly presented to industry peers and stakeholders that have studied HFO-1234yf for the past four years to allow a full balanced review.  DuPont has offered to provide technical expertise to work with Daimler and other OEMs to resolve questions about the adoption of HFO-1234yf as a more sustainable automotive refrigerant, in time to meet the requirements of the MAC Directive by January 1, 2013


http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/test_results/daimler_testing. ht ml
 
2013-04-11 03:08:25 PM

hitlersbrain: I feel that cars should explode more. I can't remember the last time I saw a car explode like they do in the movies. I will be better able to defend my home and family if I can make the bad guys cars explode when I riddle them with gunfire like they do in the video games.



Plus entertainment value. It's boring being stuck in a huge traffic jam where the payoff is a couple of dented cars on the shoulder.
 
2013-04-11 03:09:30 PM

Ivo Shandor: Fun bit of trivia: many of those "canned air" dusters are the same R-134a chemical that's used as a refrigerant. If it's inside an air conditioner you're supposed to carefully recover and recycle it. If it's in a duster can, spray away!


R-134a is not dangerous unless it's compressed in which case it can freeze your skin. Aside from it displacing oxygen, there is no reason it wouldn't be safe coming out of a duster.

Suddenly popping a high pressure cap off and getting sprayed with the still-liquified coolant = bad
Spraying yourself with a gentle mist from a duster = no problem

/ You also have to turn the canister upside down to extract it from the can.
 
2013-04-11 03:11:24 PM
Cool...

beyondthemarquee.com
 
2013-04-11 03:12:29 PM
Might as well us propane in your car's AC system.  You'll still burn to death in an accident, but it's a much cheaper way to die.
 
2013-04-11 03:13:35 PM
Daimler, which had put the refrigerant in hundreds of its 2013 high-end SL roadsters, recalled all of them.

Phhht!  Rich people problems.
 
2013-04-11 03:15:24 PM

palan: Cybernetic: Wiki says that when it burns, it releases hydrofluoric acid--which is truly scary stuff.

I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Teflon scares you?
 
2013-04-11 03:16:09 PM

Kraln: Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?


No, you can't have NeF8. Not yours.

Fluorine will make stable compounds with xenon, which in reality is pretty slutty for a "noble" gas. It'll bind with krypton, too, but not very stably. It'll also "bind" with argon, if you call "staying in an ordered lattice at cryogenic temperatures for the sake of the kids" "binding".

If you're concerned about the hazardous properties of the elements that compose a compound, I hope to hell that you never have to deal with table salt.

The Daily Fail is attention-whoring here for the most part; all those horrid toxic products will also appear if you propel atomized oil against an igniter with R-134a, or good old non-toxic ozone-destroying dichlorodifluoromethane. I am a bit concerned about the trifluoroacetic acid decomposition product, though. I'd be much happier sticking with R-134a for legacy systems and moving new ones to CO2, although I thought there were dire practical barriers to small-scale CO2-based refrigeration.
 
2013-04-11 03:24:44 PM
Well, isn't the answer to keep it away from your face?
 
2013-04-11 03:27:41 PM

palan: I don't think I've ever heard about a fluoride compound that isn't incredibly scary.


Calcium fluoride. It's a rock.

YoungLochinvar: Teflon scares you?


Yes, if you get it too hot or if you look at the precursor chemicals used to produce it.

skozlaw: R-134a is not dangerous unless it's compressed in which case it can freeze your skin. Aside from it displacing oxygen, there is no reason it wouldn't be safe coming out of a duster.


The restrictions on refrigerant release are not for personal safety; they're an environmental issue. Originally the concern was ozone depletion, but even the ozone-safe refrigerants tend to have high global warming potentials.
 
2013-04-11 03:29:50 PM
I still have my massive stash of 30 pound cylinders of R-12 as well as a number of cases of cans...all stockpiled before the ban before 1992...so there.
 
2013-04-11 03:30:21 PM
Fark me I hate that sight. Acting all self-righteous when it comes to retard-right-wing garbage, then HEY LOOK AT THOSE HUGE TITS ON THAT ACTRESS IN A BIKINI!!!!

/Wanker
//Twat
///Banger?
 
2013-04-11 03:34:28 PM
I'm totally gonna trust a publication that thinks this guy is a climate science "expert":

images.smh.com.au
 
2013-04-11 03:34:38 PM
From what I hear the car company that is hiding behind the group funding these anti-refrigerent ads is going to slapped with a nasty slander lawsuit similar to how Dateline NBC was sued for putting rocket motors on side saddle gas tanks to start fires.

This car company apparently made a bad bet that this refrigerant wouldn't make it to market, so their only hope now is to make it look EBIL.
 
2013-04-11 03:39:17 PM
Wow, fluorine sure has a bad reputation around here. The same reactivity and tiny atomic size that give rise to the hazards of fluorine gas and hydrofluoric acid also mean that many fluorochemical products are extremely stable. They're used as stain blockers in clothing, carpet, and upholstery applications. They're used to make o-rings for some applications with extreme conditions such as acidity or temperature. And of course everyone routinely enjoys their non-stick cookware which is literally coated in fluorochemicals (polytetrafluoroethylene).

Of course, when you heat the crap out of most fluorochemicals, they break down and potentially liberate some hazardous products -- not only are F2 and HF hazardous, but hexafluoroacetone and perfluoroisobutylene have some crazy low exposure limits. Fortunately, an international automotive engineering society has investigated whether releasing this refrigerant into a car's engine compartment qualifies as heating the crap out of it:

Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle.
 
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