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(Reuters)   For some unfathomable reason, Britain has chosen not to invite the President of Argentina to Margaret Thatcher's "Falklands War-themed" funeral next week   (reuters.com) divider line 122
    More: Amusing, Fernandez, Falkland Islands, Britain, South Atlantic, St Paul's Cathedral, Members of Parliament, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, soviet leader  
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2491 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 1:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 05:33:58 PM

NutznGum: relcec: EngineerAU: Not sure why the Brits love the thump their chests over the Falklands. It's at best a cheap memento of their faded empire. Keeping it around is as pathetic as those balding middle age guys who show up at college bars (or worse, high school hangouts) talking about who awesome they were back in the 80s. Pretending that keeping them makes the UK look powerful is laughable. Heck, it's the French who deserve most of the credit. Without them giving Maggie the disarm codes for Argentina's Exocet missiles, the British fleet would have been sitting at the bottom of the south Atlantic.

Maybe Reagan's funeral should have been Granada themed.

they were using cruise liners as assault ships 8000 miles from home. the intestinal fortitude alone is impressive.
and if there was such thing as a disarm code perhaps you can explain why the sheffield and the supply ships ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic.

France had codes for the missiles to ensure they never had to worry about one of their customers (Argentina being one) using them against them. After the Sheffield, France gave England the codes.

The codes were related to the tracking/targeting system of the missiles. They weren't disarm codes.


they were destruct codes, old iron skirts told the frogs to give them up or else she would use nukes, the frenchs raised the white flag and gave up the codes.

BTW those islands have OIL
 
2013-04-11 06:27:59 PM

liam76: mbillips: Well, she needs to be remembered for something, and wrecking the UK's manufacturing base and poking giant holes in its social safety net aren't as much fun as kicking the crap out of a military junta.

Wasn't the manufacturing base circling the tubes for years?  What she did was more akin to pullingt heplug on life support.


Yeah, someone on Fark a couple of days ago blamed Margaret Thatcher for destroying the UK car industry. This despite Rootes (Hillman, Alpine, Sunbeam, Talbot cars) went bust in 1971 and was taken over by Chrysler and then Peugeot before Maggie was elected, Rolls Royce went bust in 1971 and was then sold to BMW under Blairs government, British Leyland had been circling the drain for a decade and finally went bust and was sold to the Chinese under Blair.

Blaming Maggie for the decline of the British car industry is like blaming Dönitz for Germany losing WWII because he was Furhur for the last seven days of the war.  (Is that a Godwin?)
 
2013-04-11 06:33:12 PM

EngineerAU: Not sure why the Brits love the thump their chests over the Falklands. It's at best a cheap memento of their faded empire. Keeping it around is as pathetic as those balding middle age guys who show up at college bars (or worse, high school hangouts) talking about who awesome they were back in the 80s. Pretending that keeping them makes the UK look powerful is laughable. Heck, it's the French who deserve most of the credit. Without them giving Maggie the disarm codes for Argentina's Exocet missiles, the British fleet would have been sitting at the bottom of the south Atlantic.

Maybe Reagan's funeral should have been Granada themed.


I think it's more the fact that we did the right thing when everyone and their dog, including very senior Americans, were telling us to forget about the rights of the Islanders and let it go. It was the principle.
 It was also a huge risk, a war totally not the scenario our forces were equipped for. All out forces, facilities, training and planning were to counter a Russian threat, not a conventional action in the far south Atlantic miles from any support. It could very, very easily have gone totally the wrong way and doomed the Tory government utterly.
 
2013-04-11 06:44:09 PM

farkeruk: mbillips: Well, she needs to be remembered for something, and wrecking the UK's manufacturing base and poking giant holes in its social safety net aren't as much fun as kicking the crap out of a military junta.

[fullfact.org image 615x436]
(http://fullfact.org/factchecks/Growth_Labour_manufacturing-28817 )

That's a chart showing total manufacturing output in the UK. It's not just a myth that Margaret Thatcher destroyed manufacuturing, it's completely arse-about-face. The two blue periods, when manufacturing rose, had Conservative governments. The red periods, Labour.

You're entitled to your opinion of Thatcher, but not your own facts.


Just to add the slump around 1990 is when Margaret Thatcher was persuaded, against her judgement, to shadow the ERM in preparation for the Euro.  It was a disaster (who'd have thought...?) and from almost the day the UK left the economy was great. Imagine that graph without that slump and picture where it would have been.
 
2013-04-11 06:46:58 PM

Maul555: Why didn't the invasion of the Falklands initiate a NATO response?    These people are British and the UK is certiantly a member of NATO.   Or are they substantially "unattached" to the point that NATO retaliation does not apply?


What does the N in NATO stand for?
 
2013-04-11 06:51:57 PM
The real reason the Exocets stopped sinking British ships during the Falklands war (spoiler alert for those who prefer the movie plot Mitterrand kill code fantasy):

the Argentinians only had five Exocets.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17256975

Two Exocets were fired on May 35th and one sinks the Sheffield.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sheffield_%28D80%29

On May 7th Mitterrand tells his psychoanalyst he has given Thatcher the super secret codes
that "render deaf and blind the missiles".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/22/books.france

Inconveniently for this fantasy TWO Eocets hit and sink the Atlantic Conveyor on may 25th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Atlantic_Conveyor

The Argentine Navy used their last AM39 Exocet missile attempting to attack Invincible on 30 May. There are Argentinean claims that the missile struck;[81][82] however the British have denied this, some citing that Avenger shot it down.[83][84] When Invincible returned to the UK after the war she showed no signs of missile damage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Sinking_of_HMS_Sheffield

Port Stanely was taken june 14 and operations ended on june 20.
 
2013-04-11 06:58:35 PM

relcec: Magorn: relcec: Magorn: relcec: Magorn: relcec: EngineerAU: Not sure why the Brits love the thump their chests over the Falklands. It's at best a cheap memento of their faded empire. Keeping it around is as pathetic as those balding middle age guys who show up at college bars (or worse, high school hangouts) talking about who awesome they were back in the 80s. Pretending that keeping them makes the UK look powerful is laughable. Heck, it's the French who deserve most of the credit. Without them giving Maggie the disarm codes for Argentina's Exocet missiles, the British fleet would have been sitting at the bottom of the south Atlantic.

Maybe Reagan's funeral should have been Granada themed.

they were using cruise liners as assault ships 8000 miles from home. the intestinal fortitude alone is impressive.
and if there was such thing as a disarm code perhaps you can explain why the sheffield and the supply ships ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Because amggie Didn't have those disarm codes until AFTER the Sheffeild sank,  France had initially refused to turn them over, but then Thatcher, in apparent dead earnest, said that if she didn't get the codes she'd nuke Buenos Aires instead.

so I'm supposed to believe mittarand's therapist that the french military put a code into their MOST EFFECTIVE WEAPON SYSTEM IN A CENTURY that could render them harmless?
this isn't the movies. the idea itself is absolutely incredible.

I don't find it very far fetched. IFF transponders and the like in US Military equipment work in somewhat the same way, eg a US-made stinger missile cannot lock on to an object such as an f-15 fighter, from which is recives a valid IFF code (which change daily in operational situations)  When you  sell weapons overseas, it's not a bad idea to build in failsafes that ensure they can't be used against you later

that's BS. it stops you from shooting at friendlies when you sink up the IFFs with the stingers, it doesn't stop enemies with the weapon sho ...


Look, I think you are misunderstand what most here have already explained in detail to you. You kept getting hung up on 'kill codes' or 'disarm codes' etc. We're talking about limiting the effectiveness of the Exocet (or any other missiles FTM).
We're NOT talking, here.. press 1,2,3,4, # and the missile explodes in midair!

If an opponent knows how a particular missile works like the frequency it operates on, it's detail flight characteristics it's terminal phase guidance frequencies, it's homing frequencies and a bunch of other things associated with the specific missile's 'thumbprint' then it can be easier to defeat or avoid.

That's what we're saying and NOT push a button and it explodes in midair like you think we're saying.
 
2013-04-11 07:15:49 PM
Well,
 If they were handing out prizes for the the shrillest and most overbearing 'arguments', then the Anti-Thatcher, Pro-Argentine folks in this thread have won in spades.
 
2013-04-11 08:18:05 PM

Flint Ironstag: Blaming Maggie for the decline of the British car industry is like blaming Dönitz for Germany losing WWII because he was Furhur for the last seven days of the war.  (Is that a Godwin?)


We've consulted the judges, and they will allow it as it's not a true comparison to Hitler.

However, mentioning Godwin invokes a fifteen post penalty and a new first down.

Play ball!

*whistle*
 
2013-04-11 08:25:09 PM
s.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-04-11 08:47:19 PM

toraque: Flint Ironstag: Blaming Maggie for the decline of the British car industry is like blaming Dönitz for Germany losing WWII because he was Furhur for the last seven days of the war.  (Is that a Godwin?)

We've consulted the judges, and they will allow it as it's not a true comparison to Hitler.

However, mentioning Godwin invokes a fifteen post penalty and a new first down.

Play ball!

*whistle*



You bought up Hitler.....
 
2013-04-11 09:55:22 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: They needed the Falkland Islands...

for strategic sheep purposes.


Do you have a flag?

 
2013-04-11 11:18:15 PM

SuperNinjaToad: relcec: Magorn: relcec: Magorn: relcec: Magorn: relcec: EngineerAU: Not sure why the Brits love the thump their chests over the Falklands. It's at best a cheap memento of their faded empire. Keeping it around is as pathetic as those balding middle age guys who show up at college bars (or worse, high school hangouts) talking about who awesome they were back in the 80s. Pretending that keeping them makes the UK look powerful is laughable. Heck, it's the French who deserve most of the credit. Without them giving Maggie the disarm codes for Argentina's Exocet missiles, the British fleet would have been sitting at the bottom of the south Atlantic.

Maybe Reagan's funeral should have been Granada themed.

they were using cruise liners as assault ships 8000 miles from home. the intestinal fortitude alone is impressive.
and if there was such thing as a disarm code perhaps you can explain why the sheffield and the supply ships ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Because amggie Didn't have those disarm codes until AFTER the Sheffeild sank,  France had initially refused to turn them over, but then Thatcher, in apparent dead earnest, said that if she didn't get the codes she'd nuke Buenos Aires instead.

so I'm supposed to believe mittarand's therapist that the french military put a code into their MOST EFFECTIVE WEAPON SYSTEM IN A CENTURY that could render them harmless?
this isn't the movies. the idea itself is absolutely incredible.

I don't find it very far fetched. IFF transponders and the like in US Military equipment work in somewhat the same way, eg a US-made stinger missile cannot lock on to an object such as an f-15 fighter, from which is recives a valid IFF code (which change daily in operational situations)  When you  sell weapons overseas, it's not a bad idea to build in failsafes that ensure they can't be used against you later

that's BS. it stops you from shooting at friendlies when you sink up the IFFs with the stingers, it doesn't stop enemies with the weapon sho ...

Look, I think you are misunderstand what most here have already explained in detail to you. You kept getting hung up on 'kill codes' or 'disarm codes' etc. We're talking about limiting the effectiveness of the Exocet (or any other missiles FTM).
We're NOT talking, here.. press 1,2,3,4, # and the missile explodes in midair!

If an opponent knows how a particular missile works like the frequency it operates on, it's detail flight characteristics it's terminal phase guidance frequencies, it's homing frequencies and a bunch of other things associated with the specific missile's 'thumbprint' then it can be easier to defeat or avoid.

That's what we're saying and NOT push a button and it explodes in midair like you think we're saying.


Just don't press 1234* instead. That doesn't work.
 
2013-04-12 04:15:21 AM

Magorn: relcec: EngineerAU: Not sure why the Brits love the thump their chests over the Falklands. It's at best a cheap memento of their faded empire. Keeping it around is as pathetic as those balding middle age guys who show up at college bars (or worse, high school hangouts) talking about who awesome they were back in the 80s. Pretending that keeping them makes the UK look powerful is laughable. Heck, it's the French who deserve most of the credit. Without them giving Maggie the disarm codes for Argentina's Exocet missiles, the British fleet would have been sitting at the bottom of the south Atlantic.

Maybe Reagan's funeral should have been Granada themed.

they were using cruise liners as assault ships 8000 miles from home. the intestinal fortitude alone is impressive.
and if there was such thing as a disarm code perhaps you can explain why the sheffield and the supply ships ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Because amggie Didn't have those disarm codes until AFTER the Sheffeild sank,  France had initially refused to turn them over, but then Thatcher, in apparent dead earnest, said that if she didn't get the codes she'd nuke Buenos Aires instead.


i'm no fan of the mad cow but there's no way on earth that happened. end of story.
 
2013-04-12 06:36:29 AM

Flint Ironstag: toraque: Flint Ironstag: Blaming Maggie for the decline of the British car industry is like blaming Dönitz for Germany losing WWII because he was Furhur for the last seven days of the war.  (Is that a Godwin?)

We've consulted the judges, and they will allow it as it's not a true comparison to Hitler.

However, mentioning Godwin invokes a fifteen post penalty and a new first down.

Play ball!

*whistle*


You bought up Hitler.....


No he didn't, Alois and Klara brought him up.
 
2013-04-12 06:48:25 AM

SuperNinjaToad: Look, I think you are misunderstand what most here have already explained in detail to you. You kept getting hung up on 'kill codes' or 'disarm codes' etc. We're talking about limiting the effectiveness of the Exocet (or any other missiles FTM).
We're NOT talking, here.. press 1,2,3,4, # and the missile explodes in midair!

If an opponent knows how a particular missile works like the frequency it operates on, it's detail flight characteristics it's terminal phase guidance frequencies, it's homing frequencies and a bunch of other things associated with the specific missile's 'thumbprint' then it can be easier to defeat or avoid.

That's what we're saying and NOT push a button and it explodes in midair like you think we're saying.



your an idiot.


this conversation started with some guy saying thatcher needed to thank the french for giving her the secret codes that disabled the exocets.
this is the quote I have been referencing all afternoon:
"What an impossible woman, that Thatcher. With her four nuclear submarines on mission in the southern Atlantic, she threatens to launch the atomic weapon against Argentina - unless I supply her with the secret codes that render deaf and blind the missiles we have sold to the Argentinians."
Magoudi said Mitterrand told him that he had ordered the Exocet codes to be handed over to the British at Thatcher's insistence: "She has them now, the codes. If our customers find out that the French wreck the weapons they sell, it's not going to reflect well on our exports."

he's not talking about them giving the UK the radar signature of the exocet.
he's talking about a secret code that kills the nav system.
moreover you knew this the whole time.

this is a quote during our talk earlier:
relcec:
"Excuse me," Mitterrand begins, apologising for his late arrival. "I had a difference of opinion to settle with the Iron Lady. What an impossible woman, that Thatcher! "With her four nuclear submarines on mission in the southern Atlantic, she threatens to launch the atomic weapon against Argentina - unless I supply her with the secret codes that render deaf and blind the missiles we have sold to the Argentinians. Margaret has given me very precise instructions on the telephone."
now look at the source is, the therapist of a dead politician.
now think how insane it would be to put this type of code into your best weapon system.
it is insane. it never happened.
real life isn't like Independence Day.


your direct reply to me:
supersecretninjaidiot:
except IT DID happened! do some research before while you suspend your disbelief.



your a f*cking moron. you think there is a secret code. you said so yourself. now your backtracking a bit claiming all along the super secret code to render the missile blind deaf and dumb really was just he wavelength it operated on.

and anyway exocets don't work in a way where any of that technical shiat even matters.
they get initial guidance from the aircraft a hundred miles away. when launched they drop to 8 feet off the ocean to where the ship will be. it flies so low to the surface that for that one hundred mile trip the curve of the earth blocks the missiles radiation from the target ship for all but the last couple seconds. the target ship has at most 2 seconds to pick up the radiation, and get ordinance ou in its direction. the problem isn't the british didn't have radar receivers that could pick up a wide spectrum, before the french told them the secret kill code.
the problem was they had vietnam war era cwis weapons that couldn't possibly cope with the speed of the engagement.

anyway you are a liar and you aren't very bright because you bought this bullshiat about a secret code all afternoon.
 
2013-04-12 07:15:33 AM

NutznGum: I know, it was pretty outrageous of Argentina to go an inhabited island and tell all the residents they were part of their country now. England Spain must have been scandalized, they would never do something like that.


Contextualised that for you.
 
2013-04-12 08:21:21 AM

relcec: and anyway exocets don't work in a way where any of that technical shiat even matters.
they get initial guidance from the aircraft a hundred miles away. when launched they drop to 8 feet off the ocean to where the ship will be. it flies so low to the surface that for that one hundred mile trip the curve of the earth blocks the missiles radiation from the target ship for all but the last couple seconds. the target ship has at most 2 seconds to pick up the radiation, and get ordinance ou in its direction.


Actually, you have a bit more than that.

Radio horizon is 1.415*sqr(height in feet) = statute miles.  For detection range, you figure the range for the transmitter (missile in this case), and for the receiver (radar warning receiver antenna on ship, in this case), and you add them together.

For the missile, radio horizon is (whips out trusty virtual slide rule):

i47.tinypic.com

For a missile at a height of 6 feet, the range is about 3.9 statute miles.

Doing the same for the Type 42 mast height, which appears at a minimum to be 80 feet, we get a range of about 12.7 statute miles, making the total detection range for both the seeker head to see the ship, and for the ship to see the missile, of 16.6 statute miles, which is about 14.4 nautical miles.

Exocet travels at about 615 knots.  That means it would traverse that 14.4 NM in about ((14.4/615)*60)*60 = 84 seconds.

You get just under a minute and a half warning.
 
2013-04-12 08:26:06 AM

dittybopper: relcec: and anyway exocets don't work in a way where any of that technical shiat even matters.
they get initial guidance from the aircraft a hundred miles away. when launched they drop to 8 feet off the ocean to where the ship will be. it flies so low to the surface that for that one hundred mile trip the curve of the earth blocks the missiles radiation from the target ship for all but the last couple seconds. the target ship has at most 2 seconds to pick up the radiation, and get ordinance ou in its direction.

Actually, you have a bit more than that.

Radio horizon is 1.415*sqr(height in feet) = statute miles.  For detection range, you figure the range for the transmitter (missile in this case), and for the receiver (radar warning receiver antenna on ship, in this case), and you add them together.

For the missile, radio horizon is (whips out trusty virtual slide rule):

[i47.tinypic.com image 639x269]

For a missile at a height of 6 feet, the range is about 3.9 3.49 statute miles.

Doing the same for the Type 42 mast height, which appears at a minimum to be 80 feet, we get a range of about 12.7 statute miles, making the total detection range for both the seeker head to see the ship, and for the ship to see the missile, of 16.6  16.2 statute miles, which is about 14.4 14.1 nautical miles.

Exocet travels at about 615 knots.  That means it would traverse that 14.4 14.1 NM in about ((14.4 14.1/615)*60)*60 =  84 82.5 seconds.

You get just under a minute and a half warning.


FTFM.  Yes, it's only a second and a half difference, but I'm feeling pedantic today.
 
2013-04-12 08:48:00 AM
Can I just point out that we won??

whoo hoo!

/High fives!!!
 
2013-04-12 09:23:49 AM

PoRL: Can I just point out that we won??

whoo hoo!

/High fives!!!


This is now a maths thread.  Adjust your frivolity accordingly.
 
2013-04-12 01:14:53 PM

vernonFL: Katolu


I'll bring the drinks
 
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