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(The New York Times)   50 former Nazi prison guards may be tried for war crimes. This is not a repeat of 1946   (nytimes.com) divider line 151
    More: Interesting, Auschwitz, Nazis, loves, Simon Wiesenthal Center, occupied Poland, death camps, John Demjanjuk, Holocaust  
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5584 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 7:45 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 09:21:26 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing


Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.
 
2013-04-11 09:22:39 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.


Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.
 
2013-04-11 09:23:14 AM  

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.


"volunteered"
 
2013-04-11 09:23:47 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


Especially since I think it sends the message that "if it takes a lifetime, we will hunt you down." Never again a peaceful night's sleep, unless you were involved in genocide in one of those crummy countries where God isn't watching.
 
2013-04-11 09:23:55 AM  

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.


That chair suuuure is cushy.
 
2013-04-11 09:25:12 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: "volunteered"


Someone didn't read the link.

The people who were at the camps were there voluntarily. No one was shot for refusing to participate in the murder of Jews and undesirables.

In fact, most of them did it gleefully. The Soviets took great pride in this, and instead of enforcing the shame that the West did in Non-Communist parts of Germany after the war, encouraged that mentality in the East. They were monsters, but they were GOOD monsters for following orders.
 
2013-04-11 09:26:45 AM  

hardinparamedic: The Nuremberg Doctrines state that an enlisted soldier, following the orders of a superior officer, is just as responsible as the one giving that order if they know it is unlawful and they follow it.

Not that you ever did it, but pointing out that "following orders" is not a defense in the least for participating in atrocities.


"Enlisted" isn't the same as being conscripted by a foreign power after you lost the war.
 
2013-04-11 09:27:13 AM  

ReapTheChaos: lmb: ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.

Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.

They were prison guards, if they're still alive that means they were most likely teenagers at the time, which in turn means they were nothing but low ranking privates, what the hell were they supposed to do to stop anything? The "Following orders is no excuse" line can only be carried so far. If they're going to go after some kid who stood guard at the camp then you may as well go after every German citizen. After all, they all knew it was going on anyway, or did they think all their Jewish neighbors were being hauled off to a tropical resort somewhere?

Aside from that, how many witnesses could be alive to even testify against them anymore? There is no way they could receive a fair trial this late in the game.


They especially can't get a fair trial since Kate wins let won that Oscar.
 
2013-04-11 09:28:32 AM  
My Ma's side of the family is East German.  My Grandmother's brother was in the SS.  My mother doesn't know in what capacity as the family didn't know, but she was told when he came a couple times to visit the family during the war, he appeared to be a higher up in the SS ranks, as he had a couple guys under him always accompanying him with a small motorcade.  As far as we know, he was hung directly after the war.  No one ever saw him again.

My mother was born in 48.  My Grandfather said the family couldn't stay Schwerin anymore because there wouldn't be a life for them with the East/West divide, so when my mother was about 6 months old, they gave her sleeping pills, stuck her in a pillowcase, and fled the dairy farm with an Aunt and Uncle in the night and headed West, and finally to America.

CSS.
 
2013-04-11 09:28:35 AM  

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.


From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.
 
2013-04-11 09:31:12 AM  

mike_d85: There's that many of them still ALIVE??
Never mind the executions for war crimes, they're farking OLD.


No doubt.  My Grandfather was a German Panzer operator, and he 9 years ago at the age of 93...
 
2013-04-11 09:32:31 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.

That chair suuuure is cushy.


What is this, 3rd grade debate day?  My chair is indeed cushy, wtf does that have to do with anything?  You're saying that you would find no fault in some guy (regardless of age) who guarded your family while they were tortured, stripped of all humanity, and systematically slaughtered.  I'll at least give you points for publicly taking that position.
 
2013-04-11 09:34:50 AM  

Korzine: hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.

From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.


Yeah, that's not what happened with this guy.

Not only was he a dishonorable prisoner of war who agreed to work with the enemy for comfort, but he voluntarily took part in murders of his fellow soldiers as well as prisoners.

fark him.
 
2013-04-11 09:35:16 AM  

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.

That chair suuuure is cushy.

What is this, 3rd grade debate day?  My chair is indeed cushy, wtf does that have to do with anything?  You're saying that you would find no fault in some guy (regardless of age) who guarded your family while they were tortured, stripped of all humanity, and systematically slaughtered.  I'll at least give you points for publicly taking that position.


The chair appears to be made of straw.
 
2013-04-11 09:35:36 AM  

Korzine: hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.

From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.


They were also recruited and there was no choice.  If the military came to your door, asking for your sons, you let them go.  Hitler really put the charm on the German people.   Some families took pride in their kids being picked for duty.   Recruiting "Hitler Youth" was a real thing.
 
2013-04-11 09:40:59 AM  

ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.


Fark that nonesense. Even at 90 or 100 years old they should all be destroyed. If for no other reason than to serve as a reminder to anyone else contemplating death camps.

anyone involved in a genocide like the one in ww2 should be killed with fire
 
2013-04-11 09:41:41 AM  

vudukungfu: the discussion then turns into a question over whether it's morally acceptable to try people who have to be carried in on stretchers into a courtroom

I'm OK with not carrying them. You can just kick them until they get up and walk.

At this rate, Bush will stand trial in oh, about 2069.


Along with Obama, who perpetuated Bush's "war crimes".
 
2013-04-11 09:41:58 AM  
HotWingConspiracy:

The chair appears to be made of straw.

I know you think you're clever here, but you're really not. You're just parroting excuses.

The fact you've chosen to take up the mantle of a traitor who admittedly sold his soul voluntarily to the Germans in exchange for a little peace of mind and comfort is sickening.
 
2013-04-11 09:44:57 AM  

hardinparamedic: Yeah, that's not what happened with this guy.

Not only was he a dishonorable prisoner of war who agreed to work with the enemy for comfort, but he voluntarily took part in murders of his fellow soldiers as well as prisoners.

fark him


I missed that in the link. Where did it spell that out? I couldn't find anything that said how he came to work for the germans. The wiki article said he faced starvation if he stayed in the camps. That is abit different than "comfort" in my book.


The court rejected arguments that Mr. Demjanjuk would have had no choice but to work in the camps. Judge Alt said that many of the Ukrainians recruited to work for the SS successfully escaped after learning the nature of the work, and Mr. Demjanjuk had a duty to do the same.

"An escape with a chance of survival was possible," Judge Alt said.


I can't really get behind that. They are admitting that if he didn't work for them they would try and kill him. Great ont he guys who did escape but I can't comfortably judge a guy who is working under the threat of death after he was conscripted by a foreign power.
 
2013-04-11 09:46:33 AM  

tiamet4: Rude Turnip: Convicting someone in their 80s for these crimes is not the same thing as convicting a much younger person for common street crime. It should be obvious that they are not being convicted on that basis. I think these convictions are solely meant to send a message to historians and future generations that the crimes they were involved in were so heinous that humanity will neither forgive nor forget, and will in fact pursue the wrongdoers to their deathbeds if necessary.

Even if that means commiting a terrible wrong ourselves?  FTFA:

Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

So a person who was a teenager at the time and may have done little more than sit at a guard tower is convicted of murdering 28,000 people and will be sent to jail as a likely sick, extremely old man because it looks good in the history books?  If we were talking about people who were proven to have taken part in executions or torture, I'd be fine with it but this is ridiculous.


I'm not saying it's right and fitting for this man at this time. My point is that he is being used to send a message.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:14 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:53 AM  

Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.


Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)

I am painfully waiting for the Scientoligists to make a claim for statehood - pretty sure they can claim the whole planet as previously claimed by the Thetans.)
 
2013-04-11 10:01:00 AM  

Langdon_777: the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist


Bought land and moved there, defended themselves when attacked.

Doesn't sound very terroristy to me.
 
2013-04-11 10:06:44 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-11 10:08:58 AM  

Langdon_777: Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)


You have a shocking volume of ignorance about Israel's founding and history since 1947. But you keep farking that chicken, I'm sure it will work out for you. That's Moshe Dayan 's fault, really, and the policies of the government since he walked into Gaza like a damn fool.

For the record, though, since I seem to have hit a nerve (and you aren't in red, btw) - I think we should walk away from Israel as a nation, along with most of the rest of the middle east. We aren't gaining anything from our current policies over there, and are doing ourselves a lot of harm in the process. I opine that we should just honestly say "we're here for the oil and we'll flatten anyone who farks with the supply" and call it a day. The tribes in the region have been at each others throats for all of recorded history, and we're not going to change it by trying to impose our morality on them.
 
2013-04-11 10:24:38 AM  

Carousel Beast: Langdon_777: Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)

You have a shocking volume of ignorance about Israel's founding and history since 1947. But you keep farking that chicken, I'm sure it will work out for you. That's Moshe Dayan 's fault, really, and the policies of the government since he walked into Gaza like a damn fool.

For the record, though, since I seem to have hit a nerve (and you aren't in red, btw) - I think we should walk away from Israel as a nation, along with most of the rest of the middle east. We aren't gaining anything from our current policies over there, and are doing ourselves a lot of harm in the process. I opine that we should just honestly say "we're here for the oil and we'll flatten anyone who farks with the supply" and call it a day. The tribes in the region have been at each others throats for all of recorded history, and we're not going to change it by trying to impose our morality on them.


Thanks for the not red :)

I do not care what religion peeps are (being a Shaman myself it would reek of hypocrisy), but lets be honest: Israel was not founded nicely and its main tenants are terribly OLD school. How about we make a country in that region which is pro freedom of religion and call it something (like) The Holy Land ... shiat maybe we could even make it the center for the world parliament.

I am Australian and yet my forefathers only came here a bit over a hundred years ago (yes some peeps got here sooner and yet ..) I do feel guilty about them ganking the land from the indigenous communities. Its not like I can leave and go back to mmmm ireland, wales, scotland, england, france (?) but I can accept that my forefathers ganked this land and choose to respect (as much as possible after the intervening murderous times) the Australians who are ancestors of the people who lived here before the European Invasion (and even those who were here before the Indian Invasion that happened a few hundred years before...alas not many left but their decedents are here.)

Anyway I would prefer to see the Vatican incorporated before I see the 'state of Israel' and yet I still expect to see it incorporated into something bigger and more honest.
 
2013-04-11 10:38:04 AM  

Langdon_777: I do not care what religion peeps are (being a Shaman myself it would reek of hypocrisy), but lets be honest: Israel was not founded nicely and its main tenants are terribly OLD school. How about we make a country in that region which is pro freedom of religion and call it something (like) The Holy Land ... shiat maybe we could even make it the center for the world parliament.


How are you calissfiying Israel's main tenents as "old school"?

You can't incorporate Palestinains into Israel and have a pro freedom of religion country because the palestenians aren't pro freedom of religion.

Langdon_777: I am Australian and yet my forefathers only came here a bit over a hundred years ago (yes some peeps got here sooner and yet ..) I do feel guilty about them ganking the land from the indigenous communities. Its not like I can leave and go back to mmmm ireland, wales, scotland, england, france (?) but I can accept that my forefathers ganked this land and choose to respect (as much as possible after the intervening murderous times) the Australians who are ancestors of the people who lived here before the European Invasion (and even those who were here before the Indian Invasion that happened a few hundred years before...alas not many left but their decedents are here.)


When did aborigines get the right to vote in Australia?

Why can't you go back but think that is possible for Israeli jews?

They "ganked" very little land.  Most of the land they bought from the landowners.  And no it isn;t right, but given that the surrounding countries booted out all their jews in the grand scheme that seems liek a fair deal.  Now I realize that is a shti deal for Palestenians who were screwed but that largely falls on the surrounding Arab countries who attacked Israel and have never given palestenians a chance at citizenship intheir country.
 
2013-04-11 10:43:42 AM  

Langdon_777: Hmm the story doesn't load and Fark will not even let me make smart/funny comments!?

What's up with that?


This thread is for the stupid but serious comments. Smarts and funnies are verboten.
 
2013-04-11 10:49:18 AM  

Lee451: Along with Obama, who perpetuated Bush's "war crimes".


Agreed. He's said nothing and Dostum is still on our payroll.
 
2013-04-11 10:59:45 AM  

Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.


Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.
 
2013-04-11 11:04:12 AM  

Fano: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.

Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.


Few of them have the balls to say they engineered it, just that they were "asking for it".
 
2013-04-11 11:21:59 AM  

liam76: Fano: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.

Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.

Few of them have the balls to say they engineered it, just that they were "asking for it".


It takes a lot of chutzpah to say with a straight face "they were always persecuted where ever they went, maybe there was a reason for that, hein?"
 
2013-04-11 11:32:28 AM  
Please keep in mind, the soldiers in Israel that ended up melting a few Palestians with white phosphorus may be held to an absoute standard of morality later too.

Karama is a biatch.
 
2013-04-11 12:13:15 PM  

hardinparamedic: ZAZ: We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).

Oh shut the fark up. That's not what's being said here, and you damn well know it. There's a difference between a twenty one year old german, and a surviving guard who took an active part in the atrocities.

We went after the leadership in Nazi Germany because it was impossible to go after everyone who perpetrated the acts at the time. Even if you want to argue that it was 70+ years ago, there is no statute of limitations on murder.

But please, tell us more about how the Germans are poor and persecuted people, oh internet white knight.


Relax bubby,

 here,have a nice piece of gefilte fish and maybe a bagel?

j0e_average: Perhaps one day, someone will hold the Israelis to account for their treatment of the Palestinians.


yeah, Judgement Day
 
2013-04-11 12:13:51 PM  
It's hard when it comes to situations like this, because who knows who was part of it and who had a gun to their head for being german blood.
 
2013-04-11 12:14:51 PM  
Seriously, what should they have done?  Refuse to follow the orders of a superior and get shot.  Follow the orders of a superior and anywhere from a few months to a few decades later, get tried for war crimes.
 
2013-04-11 12:34:06 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Seriously, what should they have done?  Refuse to follow the orders of a superior and get shot.  Follow the orders of a superior and anywhere from a few months to a few decades later, get tried for war crimes.


Makes you wonder how many trials there were for prisoners who "did as they were told" in taking part in the atrocities.
 
2013-04-11 12:38:19 PM  

links136: It's hard when it comes to situations like this, because who knows who was part of it and who had a gun to their head for being german blood.


That's why there is a COURT SYSTEM... to figure out WHO KNOWS what.

I'm all in favor of JUSTICE.

These guys got their free ride all these decades... if they are guilty, let them be found so in a court of LAW.
 
2013-04-11 12:46:13 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.

"Stand here and let the trucks in and out, or die."

You're full of shiat if you say you'd take the "die" option. So easy for you to judge from your cushy chair.


well said
 
2013-04-11 12:59:01 PM  

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


There were a lot of guards that deserve to be chased to the ends of the earth, even on their deathbed after their 100th birthday. Then there are people that were unwilling participants. Are they getting the former and not the latter?
 
2013-04-11 01:03:51 PM  

impaler: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

There were a lot of guards that deserve to be chased to the ends of the earth, even on their deathbed after their 100th birthday. Then there are people that were unwilling participants. Are they getting the former and not the latter?


Not sure.  The article did not specify, but I'd like more justice vs. less.

I'm sure we'll hear more about these trials as they unfold.  Hard to tell exactly which was they are going yet.
 
2013-04-11 04:24:35 PM  

hardinparamedic: Of course he wasn't responsible. He was just following orders, like a good Nazi.


I'm not saying that he wasn't responsible, but I have to agree with the others - where is the justice in prosecuting those lucky/unlucky to survive until now?

The issue is complicated in my mind.  Yes, they're accessories to mass murder.  I'm not a lawyer, but I am military.  To my knowledge the concept of 'illegal orders' didn't really come into being until after WWII, as a result of the actions during WWII itself, thus the decision to, for the most part, only prosecute those with the authority to order the killings and other atrocities.

lmb: Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.


The issue I have is that, in the USA at least, there's a right to a 'speedy trial'.  In this case, I believe that what we formalized into the bill of rights is something of a human right.  IE you shouldn't have a court case hanging over your head for most of your life.

Way back after WWII, we had the option to go after these low level types during the Nuremberg trials.  We choose not to, and I happen to think that it was probably the proper action for the time.  Call their actions part of being swept up into a case of national insanity.  Obviously most of them were not psychopaths, sociopaths, or otherwise criminal, having the ability to keep a clean record for 50+ years.

If they had prosecuted back when they should have, the trials could have been a lot more fair and nuanced, you'd actually be able to get fairly testimony from their superiors, subordinates, prisoners*, etc...

As a result of waiting all this time, justice isn't really being served - you're paying millions - prosecutor, judge, and defense(they're normally so old as to be pensioners living on fixed government incomes to begin with) to hold a trial for a man that's probably in the grip of Alzheimer's disease or other dementia, and thus is no longer fully able to participate in his own defense, testimony from *anyone* is going to be unreliable, and you're looking at an average prison time of like 6 months before they die and you have to pay to have that taken care of.

*Did the guy do the bare minimum required of him to not be with the prisoners themselves?  Was he an undocumented part of the underground?  Did he sneak them food?  Was he an extra-harsh accomplice?  Did he murder dozens personally?(In which case he'd probably already have been prosecuted).

hardinparamedic: The fact that you participate in it when you're 20 makes no difference when you're 70 and someone decides to reopen the cold case.


I don't consider this a cold case.  They had all the documentation they needed at the time to prosecute these people if they had chosen to.  They made a deliberate decision at the time to NOT prosecute low levels like this.

Then you get into the question of whether or not there can be a fair trial.  From reading about Demjanjuk it seems very complicated.  First Israel convicts him of being one prison guard that they had a specific list of crimes against, then they figure out that he wasn't him and release him, but then Germany accuses him of being a different guard in a completely different camp, this time not accused of anything specific(the previous standard), but 'you were a guard, that's enough for 28k cases of accessory to murder'.

While I know full well it's not a US court or justice system, to my layman's eyes that's enough 'reasonable doubt' to cloud the issue.

I'm all for convicting murderers no matter how long they've been hiding, but I feel that a lot of these people being prosecuted recently were less hiding from the law and more hiding from their own past offenses(if any).  They're not proud of that chapter of their life, so like a lot of veterans, they simply don't talk about it, at all.  Exceptions exist, of course.
 
2013-04-11 04:55:18 PM  
What I was taught was that the SS ran the death camps. Those guys volunteered to be SS, and swore to defend the Nazi principles. SS weren't regular conscripted joes.
 
2013-04-11 05:00:56 PM  

SuddenlySamhain: Relax bubby,

 here,have a nice piece of gefilte fish and maybe a bagel?


Wow. Really? That's what we're going with here?

The reason this guy so offends my humanity is secretly because I'm Jewish? Despite being an Atheist religiously, and knowing my family tree back to before the 1900s contains no one of Jewish descent?

Well, Seig Heil to you too.
 
2013-04-11 05:42:42 PM  

muck4doo: What I was taught was that the SS ran the death camps. Those guys volunteered to be SS, and swore to defend the Nazi principles. SS weren't regular conscripted joes.


The SS troops after 1943 were conscripted. Himmler pushed for more and more foreign troops to be added to the SS.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.h tml
 
2013-04-11 10:13:29 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?


My  thoughts exactly.
 
2013-04-11 10:24:15 PM  

Free Radical: I wonder if it will take 70 years to bring Bush and Cheney to justice for their war crimes...

/popcorn


This is what I was thinking. Most of the people who participated in the genocide in WWII are dead, those who aren't are incredibly elderly. The leadership was mostly tried and convicted. No one has forgotten what happened and everyone who has a functioning brain knows it was a bad thing and condemns to this day what happened in that war.

However, the people who caused so much destruction and death only 10 years ago have gotten off scott free and in most cases much wealthier. Only some people condemn them, and only some people think the entire thing was a bad idea and no lessons were learned. If we really want to punish people for war crimes, then Iraq is the place to start, not 90-year-old former Nazis.
 
2013-04-11 10:39:34 PM  

pag1107: ZAZ: they can wear a distinctive mark

Agrees

[www.halapic.com image 256x181]


That has to be one of the most stuopd contrived movies I've ever actually paid money to see.
 
2013-04-11 10:43:37 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: pag1107: ZAZ: they can wear a distinctive mark

Agrees

[www.halapic.com image 256x181]

That has to be one of the most stuopd contrived movies I've ever actually paid money to see.


Yikes! I can't believe I made such a typo (i.e., I meant "stupid")!
 
2013-04-12 10:31:45 AM  
Philbb

I just don't know. These guys are some of the most despicable people from the 20th century. But were are about 70+ years after those events. Bringing them to justice might, at this point, help some people achieve closure of some sort. But realistically

For the most part we didn't really punish those involved at the end of the war. Yes there were a few exceptions, but we put a kid with a joint in jail longer than many of those responsible had to serve.
 
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