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(The New York Times)   50 former Nazi prison guards may be tried for war crimes. This is not a repeat of 1946   (nytimes.com) divider line 151
    More: Interesting, Auschwitz, Nazis, loves, Simon Wiesenthal Center, occupied Poland, death camps, John Demjanjuk, Holocaust  
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5567 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-04-10 09:33:35 PM
We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).
 
2013-04-11 01:42:08 AM
I just don't know. These guys are some of the most despicable people from the 20th century. But were are about 70+ years after those events. Bringing them to justice might, at this point, help some people achieve closure of some sort. But realistically, these former guards are at least 86 years old, assuming that they were 16 when they were at these camps. Most are probably in their 90s at this point. They do not deserve to live even one more day.

But I wonder if it would be better to take these close to death people away from the people that have come to know them and care about them all these years later. If were dealing with this 20 or even 10 years ago I would probably see this differently and acknowledge benefit of bringing them to trail. But now? Why not let those that willing confess to their inhumanity to man be convicted and allowed to die at home. I know that they just don't deserve it, but do we really need to do anything other than convict them and make them accept responsibility for their earlier actions?

As I said, I'm just not sure. My family is not Jewish. My family (my grandfathers' era) fought for the allies.
 
2013-04-11 06:55:33 AM

Philbb: Bringing them to justice might, at this point,


What justice? Justice is many years beyond the realm of possible here. It's waaaaaay too late. This is just anal vengeance, which is a good band name.
 
2013-04-11 07:14:58 AM
Efraim Zuroff, the chief Nazi hunter for the Simon Wiesenthal Center, welcomed the new push to bring Holocaust perpetrators to justice before they die

Well if that job title doesn't get you laid, nothing will.
 
2013-04-11 07:28:23 AM
It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.
 
2013-04-11 07:51:23 AM

ZAZ: We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).


Oh shut the fark up. That's not what's being said here, and you damn well know it. There's a difference between a twenty one year old german, and a surviving guard who took an active part in the atrocities.

We went after the leadership in Nazi Germany because it was impossible to go after everyone who perpetrated the acts at the time. Even if you want to argue that it was 70+ years ago, there is no statute of limitations on murder.

But please, tell us more about how the Germans are poor and persecuted people, oh internet white knight.
 
2013-04-11 07:51:38 AM

ZAZ: they can wear a distinctive mark


Agrees

www.halapic.com
 
2013-04-11 07:52:59 AM
Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
 
2013-04-11 07:53:55 AM
I wonder if it will take 70 years to bring Bush and Cheney to justice for their war crimes...

/popcorn
 
2013-04-11 07:54:20 AM
Damn, way to hold a grudge. I wasn't there so I don't know but weren't these basically kids who were drafted and just stood as guards? What are they on trial for, not going AWOL or not starting a revolt against their superiors? I dunno, it just looks like Germany trying to assuage their guilt. Get over it.
 
2013-04-11 07:54:46 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.


Of course he wasn't responsible. He was just following orders, like a good Nazi.
 
2013-04-11 07:56:56 AM
You know who else was a Nazi and never got brought to justice?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-11 07:57:07 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.


I feel like a ghoul for asking but what was his defense layer's name?
 
2013-04-11 07:57:56 AM
There's that many of them still ALIVE??
Never mind the executions for war crimes, they're farking OLD.
 
2013-04-11 07:58:20 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.


Hey, there "aint no business like Shoah business".....a shakedown for more cash is probably also in order.
 
2013-04-11 08:00:29 AM
Hmm the story doesn't load and Fark will not even let me make smart/funny comments!?

What's up with that?
 
2013-04-11 08:01:39 AM
Well at least the story loaded now :p
 
2013-04-11 08:01:55 AM

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

Of course he wasn't responsible. He was just following orders, like a good Nazi.


Well yes, it seems the court openly stated he wasn't responsible. He was there though, so putting on a show trial to convict a nearly dead man was necessary I guess.
 
2013-04-11 08:02:51 AM
I'm not exactly sure what a conscripted 18 year old, who had been led to believe what they were doing was perfectly morally sound, were supposed to do, given that going AWOL would mean execution.
 
2013-04-11 08:04:00 AM

Free Radical: I wonder if it will take 70 years to bring Bush and Cheney to justice for their war crimes...

/popcorn


Nah they will be post humus. Too much vested interests and this be the information age, so not quite so easy to hide who was working where and mindlessly following what orders.
 
2013-04-11 08:04:58 AM
Perhaps one day, someone will hold the Israelis to account for their treatment of the Palestinians.
 
2013-04-11 08:05:11 AM

Bungles: I'm not exactly sure what a conscripted 18 year old, who had been led to believe what they were doing was perfectly morally sound, were supposed to do, given that going AWOL would mean execution.


The trick was to take a handful of the farkers with you (speaking commanding officers, not the civilians.)
 
2013-04-11 08:06:33 AM
Crimes of this magnitude should be pursued to the ends of the earth.  The fact that tptb are using this for their own nefarious purposes is just the way they roll.  Jerusalem is to be the new world capital.
 
2013-04-11 08:07:01 AM
Time to let shiat go. At this point there needs to be an end to the suffering that was WWII. Unless we find the likes Hitler, Goering, or Goebbels waiting to reemerge from their slumber in carbonite there should be a stop to this, because at this point the people left are those that were least responsible for the horrors of WWII.
 
2013-04-11 08:08:06 AM

hardinparamedic: There's a difference between a twenty one year old german, and a surviving guard who took an active part in the atrocities.


I think the problem is that a lot of these people were in occupied countries and had little choice in their job.

If they were "actively" abusing peopel yeah go after them.  If they just worked as a guard, I am not sure it is worth going after them.  Was every german guard who worked at these camps punished?  I thought we only went after their leaders, which makes me wonder why we woudl go after Polish guards.
 
2013-04-11 08:08:41 AM
"I mean, if I had my way... you'd wear that goddamn uniform for the rest of your pecker-suckin' life..."
 
2013-04-11 08:09:00 AM

Mugato: Damn, way to hold a grudge. I wasn't there so I don't know but weren't these basically kids who were drafted and just stood as guards? What are they on trial for, not going AWOL or not starting a revolt against their superiors? I dunno, it just looks like Germany trying to assuage their guilt. Get over it.


This.
 
2013-04-11 08:09:47 AM
Going after 90 year old men on their deathbed that  were teenage low-ranking soliders at the time probably won't be extremely helpful.  Can we consider eventually forgiving in some cases?

How about starting by asking for honestly documented details like the path taken in Rwanda.

/Yes, this will not be enough for some.
 
2013-04-11 08:11:48 AM
Aren't they all dead by now? There must be a better way to spend this time and money than prosecuting dead people.
 
2013-04-11 08:13:16 AM

PsiChi: Crimes of this magnitude should be pursued to the ends of the earth.  The fact that tptb are using this for their own nefarious purposes is just the way they roll.  Jerusalem is to be the new world capital.


Before it gets nuke in order to herald in the new age.
 
2013-04-11 08:13:31 AM
Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.
 
2013-04-11 08:14:12 AM
What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.
 
2013-04-11 08:14:52 AM

miss diminutive: Well if that job title doesn't get you laid, nothing will.


I'm putting that on a business card now
 
2013-04-11 08:17:23 AM
the discussion then turns into a question over whether it's morally acceptable to try people who have to be carried in on stretchers into a courtroom

I'm OK with not carrying them. You can just kick them until they get up and walk.

At this rate, Bush will stand trial in oh, about 2069.
 
2013-04-11 08:18:16 AM
Some people just love to feel rightous.

I guess it's just too much effort to do something about gitmo, illegal renditions, warcrimes agains palestinians, the Iraq War II (specifically it's premise), lobbyism, twinkies going bust.

So yeah, lets stick it to the few remaining nazis, that have been too unimportant to persecute all these years.
 
2013-04-11 08:18:22 AM
pag1107
What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding? I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

Then isn't any German that didn't take up arms in against the brownshirts and hitler's party responsible for everyone of those deaths?

/That is the logic.
 
2013-04-11 08:18:32 AM
Mr. Zuroff of the Wiesenthal Center dismissed the idea of truth commissions. "It's good for countries where there's apartheid," Mr. Zuroff said. "Not where there's genocide."

Good call, looking forward to the truth commissions set up in Israel.
 
2013-04-11 08:19:16 AM
When will Obama be brought to justice for his crimes against the American people?
 
2013-04-11 08:20:10 AM

pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?


How does that apply? You're worried that nearly dead men are going to go out Holocausting again?
 
2013-04-11 08:20:21 AM
if they want to bring Holocaust guards to trial for mass murder 70 years later can they also bring all the deniers like those behind  http://www.jewishterrorism.com/ to trial for mass stupidity now?
 
2013-04-11 08:21:04 AM
This is dumb. Really dumb. These guys all were obviously obscure enough for nobody to give a shiat about them until now.

It's been what, 70+ years? fark it. Who cares? Who woke up today and went, "Man, today is going to be ANOTHER shiatty day because I know for a fact that there's still a living conscripted Nazi out there." It's not even like they're trying to promote or sustain Nazism at all. They're pretty much dead already anyhow - why spend the resources to make a big deal and an "example" out of something nobody really gives a flying fark about anymore? Especially when the targets probably wouldn't even make it through the trial. Bonus points for the trial probably ending up more like a kangaroo court than an actual trial.
 
2013-04-11 08:21:41 AM
Convicting someone in their 80s for these crimes is not the same thing as convicting a much younger person for common street crime. It should be obvious that they are not being convicted on that basis. I think these convictions are solely meant to send a message to historians and future generations that the crimes they were involved in were so heinous that humanity will neither forgive nor forget, and will in fact pursue the wrongdoers to their deathbeds if necessary.
 
2013-04-11 08:23:00 AM
Then aren't the Jews that were forced to aid in the German war effort (in factories) also responsible by not refusing to work?

/They were just following orders.
 
2013-04-11 08:23:00 AM
What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?
 
2013-04-11 08:25:03 AM

TV's Vinnie: What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?


Sins of the Father.

Try their children.
 
2013-04-11 08:26:36 AM

vudukungfu: At this rate, Bush will stand trial in oh, about 2069.


Bush would face justice much sooner.  You're thinking every soldier under his command on trial in 2069, right down to the guy who cuts hair at Fort Blanda.
 
2013-04-11 08:28:28 AM

Bungles: TV's Vinnie: What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?

Sins of the Father.

Try their children.


+1

/Made me chuckle
 
2013-04-11 08:28:31 AM

doglover: HotWingConspiracy: Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

I feel like a ghoul for asking but what was his defense layer's name?


There are a ton of scummy lawyers.  No question.  But everyone, EVERYONE, deserves a legal defense.  For all we know this guy was forced into the job and spent his time sweeping floors and sneaking food to the prisoners.  But he was convicted.

He's guilty; I hope they hang him.  But trial with a legal defense against accusations is a bed rock of civilization.  A right those poor victims were denied.  We don't honor them by doing the same to other people.
 
2013-04-11 08:28:51 AM

Rude Turnip: I think these convictions are solely meant to send a message to historians and future generations that the crimes they were involved in were so heinous that humanity will neither forgive nor forget, and will in fact pursue the wrongdoers to their deathbeds if necessary.


I think it's been sufficiently pounded into our heads that the Holocaust was a bad thing. I think we get it.
 
2013-04-11 08:29:29 AM
Well, we can't seem to bring any of societies current criminals to justice,

I suppose the next best thing is to spend our resources chasing down and destroying an enemy we already defeated 65 years ago
 
2013-04-11 08:30:40 AM
Aside from the fact that t is pretty near impossible for anyone to get a fair trial this long after the crime; what we have here are a bunch of government employees that are at risk of losing their jobs when they run out of people to prosecute..
 
2013-04-11 08:31:31 AM
This kind of Justice is about more than the arrests and convictions themselves, it is about the principle that when you participate in something that terrible, you cannot escape the consequences of your actions. The holocaust is something that has left a scar on German society that is going to take A LONG TIME to heal. People have only started to really talk about what happened during this time relatively recently. These prosecutions stem from the guilt felt here, and the understanding that nothing that we do here will every completely erase what was done beyond pursuing these people until they are dead.
 
lmb
2013-04-11 08:31:48 AM

ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.


Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.
 
2013-04-11 08:32:02 AM

Enemabag Jones: pag1107
What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding? I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

Then isn't any German that didn't take up arms in against the brownshirts and hitler's party responsible for everyone of those deaths?

/That is the logic.


Yes, yes they are - but what are we going to do to them is the question. I am pretty sure any of them with a consciousness have beaten themselves (internally) to crap over the 70+ years. Get over it (not directed at you Enem.)

They will be dead soon and facing whatever there is to face for the actions or inactions soon enough .. I am pretty sure there are more present and current dangers we should be dealing with ... looking at you you rapist murdering arseholes,
 
2013-04-11 08:34:59 AM

Public Savant: Bungles: TV's Vinnie: What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?

Sins of the Father.

Try their children.

+1

/Made me chuckle


Yeah that was worth a giggle.
 
2013-04-11 08:35:54 AM

jbtilley: right down to the guy who cuts hair at Fort Blanda.


Don't even get me started on that butcher.
 
2013-04-11 08:37:01 AM
Even on Fark I honestly never thought I'd see the day where the majority would become apologists for those who willingly went along with the torture and murder of millions of people.
 
2013-04-11 08:37:15 AM
How about Russia persecutes the people who ran concentration camps for German civilians after WWII.  It's estimated over 300,000 German civilians died in concentration camps after the war, and there are no monuments to those people.  It's like they don't count.
To say nothing of all of the murders and rapes Soviet troops committed after WWII.  I'd like to see some justice done for those victims.
I know it will never happen, because these people aren't the designated victims.
 
2013-04-11 08:38:41 AM

n0nthing: Even on Fark I honestly never thought I'd see the day where the majority would become apologists for those who willingly went along with the torture and murder of millions of people.


"Willingly"
 
2013-04-11 08:39:21 AM
Let's ask some Holocaust survivors if they should just let bygones be bygones.
 
2013-04-11 08:41:40 AM

n0nthing: Even on Fark I honestly never thought I'd see the day where the majority would become apologists for those who willingly went along with the torture and murder of millions of people.


As a general rule I tend to give a bit of understanding to 16 year olds.

That said they shouldn't get away unscathed!

I suspect none of the surviving wankers or wimps have spent the last 70 years unscathed. We are talking of peeps who were there, not necessarily sadistic bastards you murdered people and if they really did, then wait a decade or two and let divine justice deal with them (you do believe in G*d right?)
 
2013-04-11 08:41:41 AM

n0nthing: Even on Fark I honestly never thought I'd see the day where the majority would become apologists for those who willingly went along with the torture and murder of millions of people.


Yea I never thought I'd see it too, but here we are
 
lmb
2013-04-11 08:42:00 AM
Going after these guys isn't enough. I wish they'd go after the Vatican for their part in helping top Nazi officers obtain false identifications and giving them an escape route to South America.
 
2013-04-11 08:43:31 AM
Hey. The Germans are just taking orders. From the Wiesental institute.
 
2013-04-11 08:44:46 AM

lmb: Going after these guys isn't enough. I wish they'd go after the Vatican for their part in helping top Nazi officers obtain false identifications and giving them an escape route to South America.


See that is exactly where I have a problem - most of the peeps they want to go after where nothings in the big picture ... and yet the Vatican still gets a vote on the UN.

The sooner that pretend country is absorbed into Italy the better (for the ill informed look up the specific details of when that place became a state and who implemented it ... also is there still a 1% opt out tax in Germany that goes towards it?)
 
2013-04-11 08:45:09 AM

doglover: HotWingConspiracy: Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

Riiiiight. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

I feel like a ghoul for asking but what was his defense layer's name?


He also sttod trial in Israel (they accused him of being a spscific and particularly brutal guard) and was aquitted.
 
2013-04-11 08:45:39 AM
HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.
 
2013-04-11 08:46:00 AM
One of the most amazing things when I spoke with a neighbor who was a survivor of one of the polish camps, she was sweet nice and kind but when that guy from ohio was suspected of being a criminal she was on the guilty till proven innocent side of things, and said even if he was just a guard or a janitor he did not do enough to stop and left, even if we was from another country conscripted into service.  It was a type of pain/hate that I hope I never have to understand

I hate the idea that a guard if not otherwise specified can be charged with war crimes, like pawns on a chess board, what other options did they generally have then go where assigned and do their job, unless they went above and beyond the call of duty to kill torture and their is proof
 
2013-04-11 08:46:17 AM
Didn't we have a recently stepped down Pope who was a Nazi?
 
2013-04-11 08:47:02 AM
And if we wish to hunt down these people for their crimes, how about we hunt down the original terrorists in British Palestine ... pretty sure there is a member of parliament or two that should really have faced a firing squad.
 
2013-04-11 08:48:13 AM

Tat'dGreaser: n0nthing: Even on Fark I honestly never thought I'd see the day where the majority would become apologists for those who willingly went along with the torture and murder of millions of people.

Yea I never thought I'd see it too, but here we are


You guys realize these people were in a conquered country and were often conscripted to do this?

Israel doesn't even go after cases like this.

I am looking for the article but I seem to remember when Germany went after Demjanjuk there was a lot of press about german low level guards who they turned a blind eye to.  Even if you think peopel like this are worth prosecuting I am going to have questions about how evenly the prosecution is going after people.
 
2013-04-11 08:48:35 AM
I just can't wait for everyone involved in that to be dead.
 
2013-04-11 08:48:47 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.


"Stand here and let the trucks in and out, or die."

You're full of shiat if you say you'd take the "die" option. So easy for you to judge from your cushy chair.
 
2013-04-11 08:50:19 AM

lmb: ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.

Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.


They were prison guards, if they're still alive that means they were most likely teenagers at the time, which in turn means they were nothing but low ranking privates, what the hell were they supposed to do to stop anything? The "Following orders is no excuse" line can only be carried so far. If they're going to go after some kid who stood guard at the camp then you may as well go after every German citizen. After all, they all knew it was going on anyway, or did they think all their Jewish neighbors were being hauled off to a tropical resort somewhere?

Aside from that, how many witnesses could be alive to even testify against them anymore? There is no way they could receive a fair trial this late in the game.
 
2013-04-11 08:50:57 AM

boozel: Especially when the targets probably wouldn't even make it through the trial. Bonus points for the trial probably ending up more like a kangaroo court than an actual trial.


THIS

These guys are seriously old. Probably hardly mobile. They're going to put up all sorts of defence against coming, and in the process, probably many will die before even getting to trial. Then they'll be tried, sent to prison, but as they're seriously old, will be in a place not too different to where they currently live. If they've got a terminal illness, they won't be imprisoned on compassionate grounds.

But there's another thing - you really can't compare being an accesory to murder, when living in a fascist state at war that thinks murder of certain people is OK, with accessory to peacetime murder. I know there's the whole thing about "following orders is no excuse", but it's also easy, sitting in our relatively free society to be an Internet Tough Guy about that, rather than considering what the consequences for people would have been.

Oh, and let me know when the Red Army soldiers that raped women and murdered people on the way to Berlin, something that Stalin simply dealt with as "didn't happen", get tried.
 
2013-04-11 08:54:40 AM
More flag burning nonsense while the world tumbles into the abyss.
 
2013-04-11 08:56:11 AM

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.

"Stand here and let the trucks in and out, or die."

You're full of shiat if you say you'd take the "die" option. So easy for you to judge from your cushy chair.


/shrug.  Most of us are lucky enough to never have to make the kind of decision that truly defines us as a person even at the cost of our own lives or those of our family's.  I'd like to think that I would take the high road in such a situation, but maybe I wouldn't in order to protect my life or (as is more likely) the lives of those I love.  However, if I did choose to be complicit in such atrocities I would more than deserve to be punished.
 
2013-04-11 08:58:47 AM
We let WAY more Japanese bad guys from WWII off the hook.
 
2013-04-11 08:59:09 AM
Let's punish 90+ y/o men for things they did in their 20s as Privates who really had no choose in the matter. Better yet why not charge any German who was alive during the war that wasn't part of the resistance to the Nazis becuase they were helping the Nazi war machine march forward and that prevented the Allies from liberating the camps and ending the war sooner.  While we are at it, the Japanese royal family is still free. Why not turn them and any former Japanese soldier over to the Phillipines or China for war crimes.
 
2013-04-11 09:00:14 AM

farkeruk: Oh, and let me know when the Red Army soldiers that raped women and murdered people on the way to Berlin, something that Stalin simply dealt with as "didn't happen", get tried.


Only losers commit war crimes.

But yeah, if a prison guard was conscripted at 16 in 1945 they're be 84 ish years old. Anyone who had any real rank or power in the Nazi organization is probably long dead. At this point it's nothing more than a dog and pony show.
 
2013-04-11 09:01:48 AM

ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.


ZAZ: We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).


There were soldiers of honor, the  Wehrmacht, the Heer, and was full of honorable men.  These are not those men.
 
2013-04-11 09:04:42 AM

Marcintosh: There were soldiers of honor, the  Wehrmacht, the Heer, and was full of honorable men.  These are not those men.


Not only that, but many people don't realize that the SS were not the regular Wehrmacht, and not the Heer. To the general person, they were one in the same, which is a horrible idea. They were their own army. You were drafted into the Wehrmacht as a German. You volunteered to join the SS. You volunteered to be a part of the Einsatzgruppen.

Those who were in the SS were not there because they were forced at gunpoint. They were gladly part of the group
 
2013-04-11 09:05:06 AM

pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.


I was in Iraq. I worked in a prison facility. I quite literally was the latrine orderly and janitor. Should someday I have to worry about being accused of war crimes for what others did there?

What's important to note is how much POWER the person had. In terms of power to influence what was happening there, the guards had just as much power as the prisoners: none.
 
2013-04-11 09:05:23 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.

"Stand here and let the trucks in and out, or die."

You're full of shiat if you say you'd take the "die" option. So easy for you to judge from your cushy chair.

/shrug.  Most of us are lucky enough to never have to make the kind of decision that truly defines us as a person even at the cost of our own lives or those of our family's.  I'd like to think that I would take the high road in such a situation, but maybe I wouldn't in order to protect my life or (as is more likely) the lives of those I love.  However, if I did choose to be complicit in such atrocities I would more than deserve to be punished.


So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.
 
2013-04-11 09:06:29 AM

Marcintosh: ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.

ZAZ: We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).

There were soldiers of honor, the  Wehrmacht, the Heer, and was full of honorable men.  These are not those men.


True - I always respected Rommel (one of my earliest school papers was on him) and he did what a strong person should and died for it (too bad he and his mates failed at it :(
 
2013-04-11 09:07:07 AM

Rude Turnip: Convicting someone in their 80s for these crimes is not the same thing as convicting a much younger person for common street crime. It should be obvious that they are not being convicted on that basis. I think these convictions are solely meant to send a message to historians and future generations that the crimes they were involved in were so heinous that humanity will neither forgive nor forget, and will in fact pursue the wrongdoers to their deathbeds if necessary.


Even if that means commiting a terrible wrong ourselves?  FTFA:

Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

So a person who was a teenager at the time and may have done little more than sit at a guard tower is convicted of murdering 28,000 people and will be sent to jail as a likely sick, extremely old man because it looks good in the history books?  If we were talking about people who were proven to have taken part in executions or torture, I'd be fine with it but this is ridiculous.
 
2013-04-11 09:07:09 AM

HotWingConspiracy: So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.


Murder has no statute of limitations.

The fact that you participate in it when you're 20 makes no difference when you're 70 and someone decides to reopen the cold case.
 
2013-04-11 09:07:36 AM

Securitywyrm: pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

I was in Iraq. I worked in a prison facility. I quite literally was the latrine orderly and janitor. Should someday I have to worry about being accused of war crimes for what others did there?

What's important to note is how much POWER the person had. In terms of power to influence what was happening there, the guards had just as much power as the prisoners: none.


You could have quit?!
 
2013-04-11 09:07:56 AM

lmb: ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.

Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.


Could you define 'accomplice' please? Because it seems you'd also count the young boys who were raped by priests as 'accomplices' to the molestation in the church. You'd also have to count the jews who worked in war factories as 'accomplices' to the war effort, oh and every american citizen as 'accomplices' for re-electing George Bush in regards to the crimes in Iraq.
 
2013-04-11 09:08:48 AM

Baron Harkonnen: How about Russia persecutes the people who ran concentration camps for German civilians after WWII.  It's estimated over 300,000 German civilians died in concentration camps after the war, and there are no monuments to those people.  It's like they don't count.
To say nothing of all of the murders and rapes Soviet troops committed after WWII.  I'd like to see some justice done for those victims.
I know it will never happen, because these people aren't the designated victims.


Don't forget how in WWII it was okay for GIs to bring back the skulls of japaneese soldiers as trophies.
 
2013-04-11 09:11:11 AM

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

Murder has no statute of limitations.

The fact that you participate in it when you're 20 makes no difference when you're 70 and someone decides to reopen the cold case.


Are you missing the part where the court decided it doesn't matter if you murdered anyone or not?
 
2013-04-11 09:11:53 AM
HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.  Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"
 
2013-04-11 09:13:54 AM

Langdon_777: Securitywyrm: pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

I was in Iraq. I worked in a prison facility. I quite literally was the latrine orderly and janitor. Should someday I have to worry about being accused of war crimes for what others did there?

What's important to note is how much POWER the person had. In terms of power to influence what was happening there, the guards had just as much power as the prisoners: none.

You could have quit?!


Oh really? I didn't know an enlisted soldier can just walk up to their supervisor and say "I quit." Four years in the U.S. Army, so many of us so miserable that there was little fear of death because there was so little love of life... if only we knew we could just quit! (end sarcasm)
 
2013-04-11 09:15:17 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.  Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to, and if I didn't they'd kill me...I'm innocent!"


Lemme fix that for you.
 
2013-04-11 09:16:49 AM

Securitywyrm: Langdon_777: Securitywyrm: pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

I was in Iraq. I worked in a prison facility. I quite literally was the latrine orderly and janitor. Should someday I have to worry about being accused of war crimes for what others did there?

What's important to note is how much POWER the person had. In terms of power to influence what was happening there, the guards had just as much power as the prisoners: none.

You could have quit?!

Oh really? I didn't know an enlisted soldier can just walk up to their supervisor and say "I quit." Four years in the U.S. Army, so many of us so miserable that there was little fear of death because there was so little love of life... if only we knew we could just quit! (end sarcasm)


The Nuremberg Doctrines state that an enlisted soldier, following the orders of a superior officer, is just as responsible as the one giving that order if they know it is unlawful and they follow it.

Not that you ever did it, but pointing out that "following orders" is not a defense in the least for participating in atrocities.

HotWingConspiracy: Are you missing the part where the court decided it doesn't matter if you murdered anyone or not?


What is "accessory" for 500, Alex.

i36.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-11 09:17:31 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.


Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.
 
2013-04-11 09:18:17 AM
I know that this is anecdotal and may not be typical, but back in the 70s I was working in a factory that had purchased a German built machine.  A factory rep from Germany came over to install it.  He spoke decent English and, on breaks, would sit with a bunch of us for lunch and to smoke in the break room.  There was the usual banter and jokes.  Then, after he had been there a couple of days, he started talking about how he had been assigned to one of the POW camps as a guard after he was injured on the Eastern Front.  Apparently one of the few to make it back before things got really nasty.  He allowed as how Allied soldiers were pretty lucky because they got treated a lot better than "those damned Jews."  He also allowed as how he thought that a lot more Germans knew what was going on in the concentration camps than were willing to admit it.  For his part, he thought the Jews had pretty much gotten what they deserved.  When he started in on how good life was under the Nazis, he was interrupted by a big fellow who worked there and had been a German citizen (not Jewish) who was opposed to Hitler and was put into one of the concentration camps but managed to escape and make his way into Switzerland.  The unspeakable cruelty he had suffered at the hands of his own countrymen made him somewhat less than tolerant of a guy bragging about his role in the war.  I'm still not sure why the bunch of us pulled John off the guy.  Probably didn't want to have to figure out what to do with the body.  The German machine installer never came into the break room after that.

But the point is that there was at least one former Nazi who knew what was going on and, more than 30 years after the war, was totally unapologetic.  I don't know if the little bastard is still alive or if he is listed in the 50, but I would not be opposed to trying him and anyone like him.  I believe in forgiveness but forgiveness cannot occur without confession and apology.  This guy was proud.  No forgiveness is possible.

I know: purely anecdotal; this guy may have been completely atypical of every other guard.  Or, he may have been more typical than we would like to believe.
 
2013-04-11 09:18:34 AM

Securitywyrm: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.  Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to, and if I didn't they'd kill me...I'm innocent!"

Lemme fix that for you.


Consider it fixed, what difference does it make?
 
2013-04-11 09:19:08 AM

Securitywyrm: Langdon_777: Securitywyrm: pag1107: What part of "Never Again" are folks not understanding?  I don't care if you were the latrine orderly, you were there and you are forever tainted.

I was in Iraq. I worked in a prison facility. I quite literally was the latrine orderly and janitor. Should someday I have to worry about being accused of war crimes for what others did there?

What's important to note is how much POWER the person had. In terms of power to influence what was happening there, the guards had just as much power as the prisoners: none.

You could have quit?!

Oh really? I didn't know an enlisted soldier can just walk up to their supervisor and say "I quit." Four years in the U.S. Army, so many of us so miserable that there was little fear of death because there was so little love of life... if only we knew we could just quit! (end sarcasm)


Actually you can.

Just gotta face the consequences. Here in my country they would just kick you out, back to civy life. In yours they would probably lock you up in solitary for a decade or two but those are the breaks.

If you had mentioned you like sucking cock (at that time) you would have been kicked out ... easy.
 
2013-04-11 09:19:26 AM

hardinparamedic: What is "accessory" for 500, Alex.


Right the issue is people like Demjanjuk  weren't actually accessory to anything. The court had to lower the bar to get it to work.

Again, even the Israelis passed on him.
 
2013-04-11 09:21:26 AM

HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing


Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.
 
2013-04-11 09:22:39 AM

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.


Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.
 
2013-04-11 09:23:14 AM

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.


"volunteered"
 
2013-04-11 09:23:47 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


Especially since I think it sends the message that "if it takes a lifetime, we will hunt you down." Never again a peaceful night's sleep, unless you were involved in genocide in one of those crummy countries where God isn't watching.
 
2013-04-11 09:23:55 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.


That chair suuuure is cushy.
 
2013-04-11 09:25:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: "volunteered"


Someone didn't read the link.

The people who were at the camps were there voluntarily. No one was shot for refusing to participate in the murder of Jews and undesirables.

In fact, most of them did it gleefully. The Soviets took great pride in this, and instead of enforcing the shame that the West did in Non-Communist parts of Germany after the war, encouraged that mentality in the East. They were monsters, but they were GOOD monsters for following orders.
 
2013-04-11 09:26:45 AM

hardinparamedic: The Nuremberg Doctrines state that an enlisted soldier, following the orders of a superior officer, is just as responsible as the one giving that order if they know it is unlawful and they follow it.

Not that you ever did it, but pointing out that "following orders" is not a defense in the least for participating in atrocities.


"Enlisted" isn't the same as being conscripted by a foreign power after you lost the war.
 
2013-04-11 09:27:13 AM

ReapTheChaos: lmb: ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.

Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.

They were prison guards, if they're still alive that means they were most likely teenagers at the time, which in turn means they were nothing but low ranking privates, what the hell were they supposed to do to stop anything? The "Following orders is no excuse" line can only be carried so far. If they're going to go after some kid who stood guard at the camp then you may as well go after every German citizen. After all, they all knew it was going on anyway, or did they think all their Jewish neighbors were being hauled off to a tropical resort somewhere?

Aside from that, how many witnesses could be alive to even testify against them anymore? There is no way they could receive a fair trial this late in the game.


They especially can't get a fair trial since Kate wins let won that Oscar.
 
2013-04-11 09:28:32 AM
My Ma's side of the family is East German.  My Grandmother's brother was in the SS.  My mother doesn't know in what capacity as the family didn't know, but she was told when he came a couple times to visit the family during the war, he appeared to be a higher up in the SS ranks, as he had a couple guys under him always accompanying him with a small motorcade.  As far as we know, he was hung directly after the war.  No one ever saw him again.

My mother was born in 48.  My Grandfather said the family couldn't stay Schwerin anymore because there wouldn't be a life for them with the East/West divide, so when my mother was about 6 months old, they gave her sleeping pills, stuck her in a pillowcase, and fled the dairy farm with an Aunt and Uncle in the night and headed West, and finally to America.

CSS.
 
2013-04-11 09:28:35 AM

hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.


From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.
 
2013-04-11 09:31:12 AM

mike_d85: There's that many of them still ALIVE??
Never mind the executions for war crimes, they're farking OLD.


No doubt.  My Grandfather was a German Panzer operator, and he 9 years ago at the age of 93...
 
2013-04-11 09:32:31 AM

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.

That chair suuuure is cushy.


What is this, 3rd grade debate day?  My chair is indeed cushy, wtf does that have to do with anything?  You're saying that you would find no fault in some guy (regardless of age) who guarded your family while they were tortured, stripped of all humanity, and systematically slaughtered.  I'll at least give you points for publicly taking that position.
 
2013-04-11 09:34:50 AM

Korzine: hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.

From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.


Yeah, that's not what happened with this guy.

Not only was he a dishonorable prisoner of war who agreed to work with the enemy for comfort, but he voluntarily took part in murders of his fellow soldiers as well as prisoners.

fark him.
 
2013-04-11 09:35:16 AM

n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:

So due to a stroke of bad luck, you should face trial seven decades later for crimes you weren't directly involved in, based on no evidence aside from your name on a ledger somewhere. Odd sense of justice.

I'd be more inclined to say that those who were imprisoned, tortured, and killed were the ones who hit the patch of bad luck.

Why not say everyone involved outside of the aggressors had it pretty bad?

Is your argument really along the lines of, "Hey man I was just keeping watch while all these other dudes performed genocide.  I was just a kid, it was my first job, they told me I had to...I'm innocent!"

So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing.

Some people make decisions based on what is right and wrong.  Others make decisions based on what the consequences will be.  The latter half scare the shiat out of me.

That chair suuuure is cushy.

What is this, 3rd grade debate day?  My chair is indeed cushy, wtf does that have to do with anything?  You're saying that you would find no fault in some guy (regardless of age) who guarded your family while they were tortured, stripped of all humanity, and systematically slaughtered.  I'll at least give you points for publicly taking that position.


The chair appears to be made of straw.
 
2013-04-11 09:35:36 AM

Korzine: hardinparamedic: HotWingConspiracy: So now you want to gloss over the obvious result of refusing

Being assigned to one of the fronts as a Soldier?

The idea that these people were forced at gunpoint to be concentration camp guards is false. In reality, they were rotated out as they either volunteered, or more men were needed on the front.

From your own link,

Many of the guards, particularly in extermination camps, certainly were forced. Citizens of Nazi-occupied countries, especially Poland and the Ukraine, were pressed into service as camp guards during the war. They were assigned many of the most heinous duties, such as supervising gas chambers and crematoria, and their labor was not voluntary. They worked knowing they would be shot if they refused or deserted.


They were also recruited and there was no choice.  If the military came to your door, asking for your sons, you let them go.  Hitler really put the charm on the German people.   Some families took pride in their kids being picked for duty.   Recruiting "Hitler Youth" was a real thing.
 
2013-04-11 09:40:59 AM

ReapTheChaos: It's been 70 damn years, some people need to learn how to let shiat go.


Fark that nonesense. Even at 90 or 100 years old they should all be destroyed. If for no other reason than to serve as a reminder to anyone else contemplating death camps.

anyone involved in a genocide like the one in ww2 should be killed with fire
 
2013-04-11 09:41:41 AM

vudukungfu: the discussion then turns into a question over whether it's morally acceptable to try people who have to be carried in on stretchers into a courtroom

I'm OK with not carrying them. You can just kick them until they get up and walk.

At this rate, Bush will stand trial in oh, about 2069.


Along with Obama, who perpetuated Bush's "war crimes".
 
2013-04-11 09:41:58 AM
HotWingConspiracy:

The chair appears to be made of straw.

I know you think you're clever here, but you're really not. You're just parroting excuses.

The fact you've chosen to take up the mantle of a traitor who admittedly sold his soul voluntarily to the Germans in exchange for a little peace of mind and comfort is sickening.
 
2013-04-11 09:44:57 AM

hardinparamedic: Yeah, that's not what happened with this guy.

Not only was he a dishonorable prisoner of war who agreed to work with the enemy for comfort, but he voluntarily took part in murders of his fellow soldiers as well as prisoners.

fark him


I missed that in the link. Where did it spell that out? I couldn't find anything that said how he came to work for the germans. The wiki article said he faced starvation if he stayed in the camps. That is abit different than "comfort" in my book.


The court rejected arguments that Mr. Demjanjuk would have had no choice but to work in the camps. Judge Alt said that many of the Ukrainians recruited to work for the SS successfully escaped after learning the nature of the work, and Mr. Demjanjuk had a duty to do the same.

"An escape with a chance of survival was possible," Judge Alt said.


I can't really get behind that. They are admitting that if he didn't work for them they would try and kill him. Great ont he guys who did escape but I can't comfortably judge a guy who is working under the threat of death after he was conscripted by a foreign power.
 
2013-04-11 09:46:33 AM

tiamet4: Rude Turnip: Convicting someone in their 80s for these crimes is not the same thing as convicting a much younger person for common street crime. It should be obvious that they are not being convicted on that basis. I think these convictions are solely meant to send a message to historians and future generations that the crimes they were involved in were so heinous that humanity will neither forgive nor forget, and will in fact pursue the wrongdoers to their deathbeds if necessary.

Even if that means commiting a terrible wrong ourselves?  FTFA:

Mr. Demjanjuk was found guilty even though he was not directly linked to any specific crime. Instead the court, in Munich, ruled that his work as a guard at the camp automatically made him an accessory to any murders carried out there. It convicted him of being an accessory to the murder of all 28,060 people who died at the camp during his tenure as a guard there.

So a person who was a teenager at the time and may have done little more than sit at a guard tower is convicted of murdering 28,000 people and will be sent to jail as a likely sick, extremely old man because it looks good in the history books?  If we were talking about people who were proven to have taken part in executions or torture, I'd be fine with it but this is ridiculous.


I'm not saying it's right and fitting for this man at this time. My point is that he is being used to send a message.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:14 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:53 AM

Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.


Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)

I am painfully waiting for the Scientoligists to make a claim for statehood - pretty sure they can claim the whole planet as previously claimed by the Thetans.)
 
2013-04-11 10:01:00 AM

Langdon_777: the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist


Bought land and moved there, defended themselves when attacked.

Doesn't sound very terroristy to me.
 
2013-04-11 10:06:44 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-11 10:08:58 AM

Langdon_777: Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)


You have a shocking volume of ignorance about Israel's founding and history since 1947. But you keep farking that chicken, I'm sure it will work out for you. That's Moshe Dayan 's fault, really, and the policies of the government since he walked into Gaza like a damn fool.

For the record, though, since I seem to have hit a nerve (and you aren't in red, btw) - I think we should walk away from Israel as a nation, along with most of the rest of the middle east. We aren't gaining anything from our current policies over there, and are doing ourselves a lot of harm in the process. I opine that we should just honestly say "we're here for the oil and we'll flatten anyone who farks with the supply" and call it a day. The tribes in the region have been at each others throats for all of recorded history, and we're not going to change it by trying to impose our morality on them.
 
2013-04-11 10:24:38 AM

Carousel Beast: Langdon_777: Oh piss off.

I am against mother farking bastards - yes the nazies fit that definition perfectly.

But in my mind so does the Vatican and the founders of the Jewish state. The Vatican chickened out and hid, whilst the Zionist went full on terrorist (I am sorry I do not believe that a 2000 year old land clam means anything today :P you are all a bunch of militant nutters.)

You have a shocking volume of ignorance about Israel's founding and history since 1947. But you keep farking that chicken, I'm sure it will work out for you. That's Moshe Dayan 's fault, really, and the policies of the government since he walked into Gaza like a damn fool.

For the record, though, since I seem to have hit a nerve (and you aren't in red, btw) - I think we should walk away from Israel as a nation, along with most of the rest of the middle east. We aren't gaining anything from our current policies over there, and are doing ourselves a lot of harm in the process. I opine that we should just honestly say "we're here for the oil and we'll flatten anyone who farks with the supply" and call it a day. The tribes in the region have been at each others throats for all of recorded history, and we're not going to change it by trying to impose our morality on them.


Thanks for the not red :)

I do not care what religion peeps are (being a Shaman myself it would reek of hypocrisy), but lets be honest: Israel was not founded nicely and its main tenants are terribly OLD school. How about we make a country in that region which is pro freedom of religion and call it something (like) The Holy Land ... shiat maybe we could even make it the center for the world parliament.

I am Australian and yet my forefathers only came here a bit over a hundred years ago (yes some peeps got here sooner and yet ..) I do feel guilty about them ganking the land from the indigenous communities. Its not like I can leave and go back to mmmm ireland, wales, scotland, england, france (?) but I can accept that my forefathers ganked this land and choose to respect (as much as possible after the intervening murderous times) the Australians who are ancestors of the people who lived here before the European Invasion (and even those who were here before the Indian Invasion that happened a few hundred years before...alas not many left but their decedents are here.)

Anyway I would prefer to see the Vatican incorporated before I see the 'state of Israel' and yet I still expect to see it incorporated into something bigger and more honest.
 
2013-04-11 10:38:04 AM

Langdon_777: I do not care what religion peeps are (being a Shaman myself it would reek of hypocrisy), but lets be honest: Israel was not founded nicely and its main tenants are terribly OLD school. How about we make a country in that region which is pro freedom of religion and call it something (like) The Holy Land ... shiat maybe we could even make it the center for the world parliament.


How are you calissfiying Israel's main tenents as "old school"?

You can't incorporate Palestinains into Israel and have a pro freedom of religion country because the palestenians aren't pro freedom of religion.

Langdon_777: I am Australian and yet my forefathers only came here a bit over a hundred years ago (yes some peeps got here sooner and yet ..) I do feel guilty about them ganking the land from the indigenous communities. Its not like I can leave and go back to mmmm ireland, wales, scotland, england, france (?) but I can accept that my forefathers ganked this land and choose to respect (as much as possible after the intervening murderous times) the Australians who are ancestors of the people who lived here before the European Invasion (and even those who were here before the Indian Invasion that happened a few hundred years before...alas not many left but their decedents are here.)


When did aborigines get the right to vote in Australia?

Why can't you go back but think that is possible for Israeli jews?

They "ganked" very little land.  Most of the land they bought from the landowners.  And no it isn;t right, but given that the surrounding countries booted out all their jews in the grand scheme that seems liek a fair deal.  Now I realize that is a shti deal for Palestenians who were screwed but that largely falls on the surrounding Arab countries who attacked Israel and have never given palestenians a chance at citizenship intheir country.
 
2013-04-11 10:43:42 AM

Langdon_777: Hmm the story doesn't load and Fark will not even let me make smart/funny comments!?

What's up with that?


This thread is for the stupid but serious comments. Smarts and funnies are verboten.
 
2013-04-11 10:49:18 AM

Lee451: Along with Obama, who perpetuated Bush's "war crimes".


Agreed. He's said nothing and Dostum is still on our payroll.
 
2013-04-11 10:59:45 AM

Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.


Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.
 
2013-04-11 11:04:12 AM

Fano: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.

Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.


Few of them have the balls to say they engineered it, just that they were "asking for it".
 
2013-04-11 11:21:59 AM

liam76: Fano: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

Meh, it's Fark. The general mood here is that the Holocaust didn't go far enough, thinly veiled as "no, I love Jews, I just hate Israel."

Starting back in the Iranian civil unrest threads I started marking people with Red #4 and [Anti-Semite] as a gauge of how widespread the bigotry is here on Fark, and it's not a surprise when we have any thread relating in any way to Jews/Israel/the Middle East/banking/etc that it turns into a sea of red, all bringing up the evils of Jews - even if the thread is about something completely unrelated at the onset.

It must be a northern thing. Here in Dixie we couldn't care less about Jews; we're too busy looking down on our differing sects of Protestantism.

Ah yes. Those posters always start with the same chain that ends with "OK, if the holocaust really did happen and it really was as bad as documented, still, Zionists, and the Jews engineered the holocaust to snatch Palestine." But it grows tedious because from the first insinuations and "reasonable" positions it becomes excreable.

Few of them have the balls to say they engineered it, just that they were "asking for it".


It takes a lot of chutzpah to say with a straight face "they were always persecuted where ever they went, maybe there was a reason for that, hein?"
 
2013-04-11 11:32:28 AM
Please keep in mind, the soldiers in Israel that ended up melting a few Palestians with white phosphorus may be held to an absoute standard of morality later too.

Karama is a biatch.
 
2013-04-11 12:13:15 PM

hardinparamedic: ZAZ: We should kill anybody with German blood to make sure we get them all. Until we get the execution apparatus constructed they can wear a distinctive mark (as if their blond hair wouldn't tell the story of their evil background).

Oh shut the fark up. That's not what's being said here, and you damn well know it. There's a difference between a twenty one year old german, and a surviving guard who took an active part in the atrocities.

We went after the leadership in Nazi Germany because it was impossible to go after everyone who perpetrated the acts at the time. Even if you want to argue that it was 70+ years ago, there is no statute of limitations on murder.

But please, tell us more about how the Germans are poor and persecuted people, oh internet white knight.


Relax bubby,

 here,have a nice piece of gefilte fish and maybe a bagel?

j0e_average: Perhaps one day, someone will hold the Israelis to account for their treatment of the Palestinians.


yeah, Judgement Day
 
2013-04-11 12:13:51 PM
It's hard when it comes to situations like this, because who knows who was part of it and who had a gun to their head for being german blood.
 
2013-04-11 12:14:51 PM
Seriously, what should they have done?  Refuse to follow the orders of a superior and get shot.  Follow the orders of a superior and anywhere from a few months to a few decades later, get tried for war crimes.
 
2013-04-11 12:34:06 PM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Seriously, what should they have done?  Refuse to follow the orders of a superior and get shot.  Follow the orders of a superior and anywhere from a few months to a few decades later, get tried for war crimes.


Makes you wonder how many trials there were for prisoners who "did as they were told" in taking part in the atrocities.
 
2013-04-11 12:38:19 PM

links136: It's hard when it comes to situations like this, because who knows who was part of it and who had a gun to their head for being german blood.


That's why there is a COURT SYSTEM... to figure out WHO KNOWS what.

I'm all in favor of JUSTICE.

These guys got their free ride all these decades... if they are guilty, let them be found so in a court of LAW.
 
2013-04-11 12:46:13 PM

HotWingConspiracy: n0nthing: HotWingConspiracy:
"Willingly"

Granted the options may not have been very pretty, but they all had a choice.

"Stand here and let the trucks in and out, or die."

You're full of shiat if you say you'd take the "die" option. So easy for you to judge from your cushy chair.


well said
 
2013-04-11 12:59:01 PM

Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.


There were a lot of guards that deserve to be chased to the ends of the earth, even on their deathbed after their 100th birthday. Then there are people that were unwilling participants. Are they getting the former and not the latter?
 
2013-04-11 01:03:51 PM

impaler: Tat'dGreaser: Ahhhh gotta love the "well it happened a long time ago and they're old so we should just let it go" excuses.

There were a lot of guards that deserve to be chased to the ends of the earth, even on their deathbed after their 100th birthday. Then there are people that were unwilling participants. Are they getting the former and not the latter?


Not sure.  The article did not specify, but I'd like more justice vs. less.

I'm sure we'll hear more about these trials as they unfold.  Hard to tell exactly which was they are going yet.
 
2013-04-11 04:24:35 PM

hardinparamedic: Of course he wasn't responsible. He was just following orders, like a good Nazi.


I'm not saying that he wasn't responsible, but I have to agree with the others - where is the justice in prosecuting those lucky/unlucky to survive until now?

The issue is complicated in my mind.  Yes, they're accessories to mass murder.  I'm not a lawyer, but I am military.  To my knowledge the concept of 'illegal orders' didn't really come into being until after WWII, as a result of the actions during WWII itself, thus the decision to, for the most part, only prosecute those with the authority to order the killings and other atrocities.

lmb: Why? Because they're old now? Eff them! Just because these men are old and frail doesn't mean they shouldn't stand trial for being accomplices to some of the worst crimes in human history.


The issue I have is that, in the USA at least, there's a right to a 'speedy trial'.  In this case, I believe that what we formalized into the bill of rights is something of a human right.  IE you shouldn't have a court case hanging over your head for most of your life.

Way back after WWII, we had the option to go after these low level types during the Nuremberg trials.  We choose not to, and I happen to think that it was probably the proper action for the time.  Call their actions part of being swept up into a case of national insanity.  Obviously most of them were not psychopaths, sociopaths, or otherwise criminal, having the ability to keep a clean record for 50+ years.

If they had prosecuted back when they should have, the trials could have been a lot more fair and nuanced, you'd actually be able to get fairly testimony from their superiors, subordinates, prisoners*, etc...

As a result of waiting all this time, justice isn't really being served - you're paying millions - prosecutor, judge, and defense(they're normally so old as to be pensioners living on fixed government incomes to begin with) to hold a trial for a man that's probably in the grip of Alzheimer's disease or other dementia, and thus is no longer fully able to participate in his own defense, testimony from *anyone* is going to be unreliable, and you're looking at an average prison time of like 6 months before they die and you have to pay to have that taken care of.

*Did the guy do the bare minimum required of him to not be with the prisoners themselves?  Was he an undocumented part of the underground?  Did he sneak them food?  Was he an extra-harsh accomplice?  Did he murder dozens personally?(In which case he'd probably already have been prosecuted).

hardinparamedic: The fact that you participate in it when you're 20 makes no difference when you're 70 and someone decides to reopen the cold case.


I don't consider this a cold case.  They had all the documentation they needed at the time to prosecute these people if they had chosen to.  They made a deliberate decision at the time to NOT prosecute low levels like this.

Then you get into the question of whether or not there can be a fair trial.  From reading about Demjanjuk it seems very complicated.  First Israel convicts him of being one prison guard that they had a specific list of crimes against, then they figure out that he wasn't him and release him, but then Germany accuses him of being a different guard in a completely different camp, this time not accused of anything specific(the previous standard), but 'you were a guard, that's enough for 28k cases of accessory to murder'.

While I know full well it's not a US court or justice system, to my layman's eyes that's enough 'reasonable doubt' to cloud the issue.

I'm all for convicting murderers no matter how long they've been hiding, but I feel that a lot of these people being prosecuted recently were less hiding from the law and more hiding from their own past offenses(if any).  They're not proud of that chapter of their life, so like a lot of veterans, they simply don't talk about it, at all.  Exceptions exist, of course.
 
2013-04-11 04:55:18 PM
What I was taught was that the SS ran the death camps. Those guys volunteered to be SS, and swore to defend the Nazi principles. SS weren't regular conscripted joes.
 
2013-04-11 05:00:56 PM

SuddenlySamhain: Relax bubby,

 here,have a nice piece of gefilte fish and maybe a bagel?


Wow. Really? That's what we're going with here?

The reason this guy so offends my humanity is secretly because I'm Jewish? Despite being an Atheist religiously, and knowing my family tree back to before the 1900s contains no one of Jewish descent?

Well, Seig Heil to you too.
 
2013-04-11 05:42:42 PM

muck4doo: What I was taught was that the SS ran the death camps. Those guys volunteered to be SS, and swore to defend the Nazi principles. SS weren't regular conscripted joes.


The SS troops after 1943 were conscripted. Himmler pushed for more and more foreign troops to be added to the SS.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.h tml
 
2013-04-11 10:13:29 PM

TV's Vinnie: What'll Israel do when it needs another PR boost and all the Nazis are dead by then?


My  thoughts exactly.
 
2013-04-11 10:24:15 PM

Free Radical: I wonder if it will take 70 years to bring Bush and Cheney to justice for their war crimes...

/popcorn


This is what I was thinking. Most of the people who participated in the genocide in WWII are dead, those who aren't are incredibly elderly. The leadership was mostly tried and convicted. No one has forgotten what happened and everyone who has a functioning brain knows it was a bad thing and condemns to this day what happened in that war.

However, the people who caused so much destruction and death only 10 years ago have gotten off scott free and in most cases much wealthier. Only some people condemn them, and only some people think the entire thing was a bad idea and no lessons were learned. If we really want to punish people for war crimes, then Iraq is the place to start, not 90-year-old former Nazis.
 
2013-04-11 10:39:34 PM

pag1107: ZAZ: they can wear a distinctive mark

Agrees

[www.halapic.com image 256x181]


That has to be one of the most stuopd contrived movies I've ever actually paid money to see.
 
2013-04-11 10:43:37 PM

MelGoesOnTour: pag1107: ZAZ: they can wear a distinctive mark

Agrees

[www.halapic.com image 256x181]

That has to be one of the most stuopd contrived movies I've ever actually paid money to see.


Yikes! I can't believe I made such a typo (i.e., I meant "stupid")!
 
2013-04-12 10:31:45 AM
Philbb

I just don't know. These guys are some of the most despicable people from the 20th century. But were are about 70+ years after those events. Bringing them to justice might, at this point, help some people achieve closure of some sort. But realistically

For the most part we didn't really punish those involved at the end of the war. Yes there were a few exceptions, but we put a kid with a joint in jail longer than many of those responsible had to serve.
 
2013-04-12 04:13:32 PM

OnlyM3: For the most part we didn't really punish those involved at the end of the war. Yes there were a few exceptions, but we put a kid with a joint in jail longer than many of those responsible had to serve.


We executed a lot of those who were responsible.  We just didn't, at least at the time, generally consider the lowest peons responsible, and they're virtually all that remain at this time.  In addition, we were a lot saner with sentences back then, depending upon your morality.  Personally, I think that a 'kid with a joint' shouldn't spend any time in jail.

It has a lot in common with Rwanda, I think.  They've mostly decided that reconciliation is better than witch-hunts to place blame and punishment.

silvervial: However, the people who caused so much destruction and death only 10 years ago have gotten off scott free and in most cases much wealthier. Only some people condemn them, and only some people think the entire thing was a bad idea and no lessons were learned. If we really want to punish people for war crimes, then Iraq is the place to start, not 90-year-old former Nazis.


First, I'm assuming that you're talking about the USA for 'the people' and the conflicts in Iraq and/or Afghanistan for the 'destruction and death', if not please let me know which people and conflicts you're talking about.  As such, I'd argue that the 'so much destruction and death' from a decade ago is a lot more legitimate than what happened during WWII.  Pure military generals generally didn't get executed even back then.  Those that ran the death camps were.
 
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