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(Huffington Post)   North Carolina: "We must lift the ban on religion in public places" Constituent: "So then would you support Islamic prayers being said before meetings?". Legislator: "Of course not, that would be terrorism"   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 494
    More: Asinine, Muslim prayers, Michele Presnell, North Carolina, Islamic, News & Observer, Carl Paladino, Congressional Progressive Caucus, establishment of religion  
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15032 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 6:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 01:03:39 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand


Thanks for the view from the holler.  Now sell me some cracklins
 
2013-04-11 01:06:34 PM

Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.


Oh, FFS.
 
2013-04-11 01:09:01 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand


Too silly.
 
2013-04-11 01:12:35 PM

BSABSVR: Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.

Oh, FFS.


That's why it's a child's argument, and stupid to engage with. That's why, when somebody says "atheism is a religion". I just respond "OK. So what?" They are trolling you - not arguing any point that actually matters.
This stupid hick woman wants to establish Christianity as an official state religion - all the trolling about "Islam is terrorism" or "atheism is a religion" just serves to deflect from that issue. Actually, if both those things are true, it is all the more reason that the government should remain silent on the subject of religion, and that they should not be conducting religious ceremonies or displays on the taxpayer dime.
 
2013-04-11 01:12:43 PM
"America is all about speed.  Hot nasty speed"   -The Dalai Lama
 
2013-04-11 01:22:18 PM

Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.


You're wrong.   Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods.  Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist.  And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.
 
2013-04-11 01:28:00 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: UNC_Samurai: Pants full of macaroni!!: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were athier than just about anybody!

ohlookit'sthisshiatagain.jpg

That's all well and good, but my lame-ass comment was directed at his misspelling.


Oh, I had no quarrel with you, I was taking shots at the insipid line of thinking you were responding to.  It was easier to link to your post than hunt for his upthread.
 
2013-04-11 01:31:15 PM
NC is largely boned for the next at least the 5-10 years. Ignorant biblethumpers in the western mountains and eastern coast outnumber sane folks for the time being and they breed like rabbits. Note that aside from some tourism monies (much of which are at the behest of National and state properties) both east and west NC contribute absolutely dick to the NC economy and knowledge base. They're basically a bunch of farking leaches that biatch if their evil gubment check is late by a day.

Honestly, I <almost> hope NC goes full bore Oklahoma and Mississippi levels of republican derp for a few years. These ignorant leeches need to suffer, and suffer greatly, for putting the GOP teabaggers into power. Basically, fark you, I got mine, enjoy eating catfood for a decade, and get back to me once you put 2+2 together.
 
2013-04-11 01:38:09 PM

ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


Atheism is not the certainty that gods do not exist. It's the belief that gods do not exist. That breaks down into gnostic atheists, who do in fact claim to know that gods don't exist, and agnostic atheists who don't claim to know it, but just don't believe they do. Same as gnostic theists who claim to know god does exist and agnostic theists who don't claim to know it, but believe it.

Agnosticism is the belief that whether gods exists or not is not just unknown, but unknowable.
 
2013-04-11 01:41:48 PM

Johnny Swank: NC is largely boned for the next at least the 5-10 years. Ignorant biblethumpers in the western mountains and eastern coast outnumber sane folks for the time being and they breed like rabbits. Note that aside from some tourism monies (much of which are at the behest of National and state properties) both east and west NC contribute absolutely dick to the NC economy and knowledge base. They're basically a bunch of farking leaches that biatch if their evil gubment check is late by a day.

Honestly, I <almost> hope NC goes full bore Oklahoma and Mississippi levels of republican derp for a few years. These ignorant leeches need to suffer, and suffer greatly, for putting the GOP teabaggers into power. Basically, fark you, I got mine, enjoy eating catfood for a decade, and get back to me once you put 2+2 together.


They don't believe in algebra.
 
2013-04-11 01:46:41 PM

Gunslinger013: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Just like not collecting stamps is a hobbie.


But writing books about not collecting stamps, and going to conventions about not collecting stamps, and calling stamp collectors "primitive farks with bones in their noses" kinda IS a hobby.
 
2013-04-11 01:48:05 PM
Okay. I think I understand the argument:

Any thought/action that one has/does that may coincide with another having/doing the same thought/action = religion. Sports fan? Religion. Volunteer in your community? Religion. Support a candidate for office? Religion. Member of a police or sheriff's department? You bet that's a religion.

Anybody that believes anything is clearly religious whether they admit it or not.
 
2013-04-11 01:53:39 PM

Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.


I don't think she's a nut. She was an activist, at a time when no one even talked about atheism.  I may disagree with her politics, but I appreciate the what she's done for the rights of atheists like me.
 
2013-04-11 02:00:08 PM

Mr. Cat Poop: stonicus: Robert Farker: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


Do you have a different word that you use to describe the "lack any kind of belief system " other than atheism?

Everyone is an atheist when they are born. I suspect that you, along with most other religious people, were not old enough to remember when you converted from atheism to religion.

But if I believe god doesn't exist, that's a belief system, and now I'm not an atheist.  Wordplay is fun!

/don't believe in god
//don't care what word people want to use to define that

I don't believe God does exist.
I do believe God doesn't exist.

Which one is a religion?


The first one.  The second one.  Both.  Neither.
I don't care what word you use, doesn't change how I view the universe.
You can call anything a religion if you wish, just the broader you make the word fit things the less meaning it has.
 
2013-04-11 02:00:28 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Okay. I think I understand the argument:

Any thought/action that one has/does that may coincide with another having/doing the same thought/action = religion. Sports fan? Religion. Volunteer in your community? Religion. Support a candidate for office? Religion. Member of a police or sheriff's department? You bet that's a religion.

Anybody that believes anything is clearly religious whether they admit it or not.


I believe I'll have a beer....
 
2013-04-11 02:11:54 PM

ciberido: But writing books about not collecting stamps, and going to conventions about not collecting stamps, and calling stamp collectors "primitive farks with bones in their noses" kinda IS a hobby.


How many atheists do any of these things? 0.00001%??

By your logic, atheists are part of a religion in exactly the same way as christians are abortion doctor murderers.
 
2013-04-11 02:14:46 PM

Shakin_Haitian: "My taxes are so low!! Why is my child's school so shiatty?"

They're not very good at putting two and two together, either.



Know how I can tell you don't know much about NC?
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=406
 
2013-04-11 02:19:53 PM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one. Don't get in other peoples faces about it. Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


Openly expressing an opinion is not the definition of religion.  Openly expressing an opinion is not what atheists criticize religion for doing.  This is like calling vegans "meat eaters" because they get in peoples faces about diet and publicly mock and insult people for what they eat.  It is fine if you have a problem with how some atheists act, but that doesn't mean you can arbitrarily change a label so that it now somehow applies to the people who are actively against the principles of that label.
 
2013-04-11 02:23:47 PM
Ah, this reminds me of those mad old days when videogames were recalled for featuring such controversial things on their soundtracks like Muslim calls to prayer and Qu'ran verses.

/the weird, wooly, wild days of 2005/2007...

AdolfOliverPanties: [i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


I can't remember where it's from, but the quote "Aren't people who look like you supposed to have good personalities?" immediately springs to mind.
 
2013-04-11 02:30:47 PM
asyouwatch.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-11 02:33:03 PM

ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


Not sure where you came up with that... Agnostic vs gnostic is an entirely separate issue from atheist vs. theist... The former is a question of knowledge/certainty, while the latter is an issue of belief... What you're describing as "atheism" is really "gnostic atheism"... Most of us are agnostic atheists...

i132.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-11 02:38:57 PM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion?  Stop acting like one.  Don't get in other peoples faces about it.  Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


At least you admit this is what religious people do.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:57 PM

Silverstaff: Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion


Um...
 
2013-04-11 02:49:24 PM

RobSeace: ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.

Not sure where you came up with that... Agnostic vs gnostic is an entirely separate issue from atheist vs. theist... The former is a question of knowledge/certainty, while the latter is an issue of belief... What you're describing as "atheism" is really "gnostic atheism"... Most of us are agnostic atheists...

[i132.photobucket.com image 683x660]


I'm a "soft" agnostic.  I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't.  I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable.  I don't map onto those quadrants.  Also, I'm using the term "god" in the broadest sense possible.
 
2013-04-11 02:50:56 PM
Seems like a lot of people are confusing atheists with run-of-the-mill assholes.
 
2013-04-11 03:08:02 PM

Joe Blowme: ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.

I agree, can we start throwing them out of office when they go against the constitution? Or is that just for republicans? If the former, we can start with everyone who is trying to infringe on teh 2nd.


Touché, Joe.

Sure, go ahead.
 
2013-04-11 03:09:46 PM

jso2897: ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.

I don't think we want to start down that road. Running for office is a fundamental right, and we don't want to start trying to take it away from people who aren't as passionate as we are about what we think the Constitution says.


Does the idea of a  tyranny of the majority really not worry you at all?
 
2013-04-11 03:12:36 PM

Farking Canuck: ciberido: More specifically, atheism and religion are both life stances.

From your own link there can be 'life stances' based on atheism.

A lack of a belief is nothing more than that. Some people take it further ... the actions of these people do not change the base definition.


Atheism is not a lack of belief.  Agnosticism is.  Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?
 
2013-04-11 03:13:05 PM

mrshowrules: I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't. I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable. I don't map onto those quadrants.


I'm not sure how you can fail to map into one of those quadrants... You are obviously on the left agnostic axis... And, unless you actively believe in a god of some sort, I'd say you must also be on the top atheist axis, so you'd be an agnostic atheist as well... It doesn't really make any sense to say "Well I don't believe, but yet I don't not believe either!"... It's just a nonsense position... If you don't believe, you don't believe, simple as that... It's boolean...

I think you're confusing "does not believe any god exists" with an active belief in the non-existence of any gods, rather than merely the lack of active belief in the existence thereof... That would be more accurately stated as "believes no god exists"... Some atheists do indeed actively disbelieve, but that's not a requirement to be an atheist, merely the lack of theistic belief... Strengths of belief and lack thereof also vary among people... Some may very strongly believe no gods exist, while others weakly believe that, while others such as yourself don't really have an opinion at all...
 
2013-04-11 03:20:03 PM

ciberido: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

You're wrong.   Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods.  Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist.  And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


The concept of life stance is an interesting one.  If you approach it honestly, I doubt many people who claim to be religious have their faith at the core of their life stance.   Just based on wiki explanation of it.

I've evolved from a devout Catholic, to a lapsed Catholic, to a "soft" agnostic but at none of those periods in my life would I have pointed to those particular characteristics as my life stance.
 
2013-04-11 03:20:49 PM

ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?


I really don't understand where you're getting that from... You've been one of my faves for a while, but you're just plain wrong here, ciberido... Agnosticism doesn't have anything to do wtih belief, but only with knowledge... Atheism has only to do with belief, not knowledge...

Link
 
2013-04-11 03:24:29 PM

Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.


I see what you mean, of course. Strident, in-your-face people are just frigging annoying.

That said, atheists have put up a few billboards here and there. They have one radio show in Austin, TX. They occasionally get together in bars to talk about atheism. And there are a few prominent, outspoken atheists who go on talk shows and write books and give lectures. Nobody has to buy the books, listen to the shows, or sit next to them in the bars. Theists might have to see the billboards, but they can be comforted by the far greater prevalence of billboards about Jesus.

And most of the motivation for people to do those things -- write the books, give the lectures, and put up billboards -- is in response to the enormous amount of in-your-face religion out there. Door to door evangelists, billboards warning you about hell, TV channels full of preachers telling you what you must believe, and a legal system favoring religion over atheism in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. At some point one feels compelled to stand up and say "hey, not everybody believes this, quit pretending it's universal truth".

 I used to not even care about this, but the steady stream of annoying people on the Internet telling me that I am mentally ill/immature/bad person for not being an Atheist has pretty steadily soured me on them.  Every time I see atheists adopting trappings of religion (church services, symbols) to describe their relationship with the divine (i.e. active disbelief).

Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses. Branding just shows an attempt at organization. Just because atheists organize (which is rare) doesn't mean they are a religion, or even taking on the trappings of one.

It's like a guy I went to Basic Training with, who when it was Sunday morning and we all had the option of going to Church for 1 hour, he said his religion was Atheist so he demanded 1 hour to read his copy of The God Delusion.  We were all allowed one religious text, he kept Dawkins book in his wall locker under the "Religious Book" rule.  When we were allowed a moment of prayer before meals, he would recite the order of the planets or start to recite the periodic table when others were saying Christian prayers.  As the first person I had to deal with in my life, out there in the real word, who was openly atheist, he certainly made a point of replacing everything religious with an atheist equivalent.

Interesting. It seems like he could have been milking it for the benefits that accrue to the religious -- what would he be doing if he didn't get that hour? Peeling potatoes?

Silverstaff: Yes, I do what I do, out in the real world, because I want to help people.  I'm not out to convert anybody to any belief system, believe or don't believe, just follow Wheaton's Law and Don't Be a Dick about it.  A lot of Atheists are being dicks, and doing so in the exact same style as theistic fundamentalists.  That's what my problem really is with.


Cool. Let's agree that Don't Be a Dick is the important point. From there we can move on to Respect Other's Points of Views (Even While Politely Disagreeing with Them). I think we can all get along fine with that, and then hopefully you'll never have to use your gun.

I don't believe that theism is inherently destructive though. It certainly can be, part of why I no longer consider myself Christian came from what happened when I started asking too many theological questions at the Southern Baptist church I grew up at.  On the other hand, I've seen some wonderful things happen in the world because of faith-based communities and activity.

I used to believe that theism was inherently destructive. I don't any longer. I think part of that was residual reaction to being forced to attend church by my parents long after I had ceased to believe, combined with the hostility I got as a catholic kid at the Southern Baptist private school I attended for a few years.

At this point I have seen, like you, some really great things done by people of faith. I think in most cases they would do those things anyway, but their faith sustained them through trials and dark periods. I don't wish to take that away from anyone.

Theism is only destructive to those people when it leads them in unnatural directions -- self loathing as a sinner when actually you haven't done anything that harms anyone -- especially around issues of sexuality between consenting adults. Or when it leads people to ignore objective reality in favor of something they've been told is true.

Any belief system can be taken too far.  You don't want to be called a religion, okay, I can actually understand that, but a significant number of Atheists are going around acting like it is a religion while also denying that

Thanks. I totally understand what you are saying. I think the way I would express that is that some atheists are behaving the same way they condemn religious people for acting. We should all, as people, try to take the ethical high ground and respond as we wish to be treated, rather than responding in kind. i.e.:, work to create the environment we wish to live in.

Oh, and Zasteva, I missed your earlier post about the motivations and the apology for the snark relating to the middle ages.  I wanted to thank you for that.

No problem. Thanks for this polite and considered response!
 
2013-04-11 03:32:06 PM

ciberido: spongeboob: /shouldn't it be Best Carolina

Do you really want to get into an argument about which Carolina is worse?


I am on Fark of course I have nothing better to do.
 
2013-04-11 03:40:40 PM
God damn it, NC, stop legitimizing the stereotypes about us!
 
2013-04-11 03:43:28 PM

RobSeace: ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?

I really don't understand where you're getting that from... You've been one of my faves for a while, but you're just plain wrong here, ciberido... Agnosticism doesn't have anything to do wtih belief, but only with knowledge... Atheism has only to do with belief, not knowledge...

Link


I suspect it's because the distinction between Gnostic Atheism and Agnostic Atheism is a subtle one most people are not familiar with. It's far more common for people to have heard of Agnosticism as just part of the scale of believe, as in:

Believe in No God = Atheist < Agnostic = Not Sure < Deist = Believe in God but not specific one < Religious Person = Believe in God

As for the distinction between Gnostic Atheism and Agnostic Atheism, I think that also depends on the definition of God. Most atheists would accept the possibility (even if we don't think it's at all likely or choose to waste time believing in it) of a superhuman metaphysical being that created the universe by starting the big bang. Whereas if you talk about the Christian God as specifically described in the Bible, a lot more of us would say that is provably false, and we are therefore Gnostic Atheists with respect to that particular definition of God.
 
2013-04-11 03:48:55 PM

RobSeace: mrshowrules: I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't. I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable. I don't map onto those quadrants.

I'm not sure how you can fail to map into one of those quadrants... You are obviously on the left agnostic axis... And, unless you actively believe in a god of some sort, I'd say you must also be on the top atheist axis, so you'd be an agnostic atheist as well... It doesn't really make any sense to say "Well I don't believe, but yet I don't not believe either!"... It's just a nonsense position... If you don't believe, you don't believe, simple as that... It's boolean...

I think you're confusing "does not believe any god exists" with an active belief in the non-existence of any gods, rather than merely the lack of active belief in the existence thereof... That would be more accurately stated as "believes no god exists"... Some atheists do indeed actively disbelieve, but that's not a requirement to be an atheist, merely the lack of theistic belief... Strengths of belief and lack thereof also vary among people... Some may very strongly believe no gods exist, while others weakly believe that, while others such as yourself don't really have an opinion at all...


I don't think belief is necessarily a "Boolean" value.   If you ask me if you are married, I will say that I don't know.  That question allows for a valid a neutral value.

Perhaps a Boolean value if you ask a more specific question.  Do you believe Jesus is God, who gave birth to himself and lives in the sky waiting for me in the afterlife, I would say no.  If you take a broadest possible concept of god(s).  It becomes difficult to pose the question and demand a straight yes or no answer.  In the broadest sense the question could be asked "Does life having meaning?"  The possibility of a higher meaning could in itself be interpreted as god.

At some point "I don't know" is more valid/honest than "yes" or "no".

Do you think there is any intelligent life on other planets?  "Yes", "No" or "I don't know" are all valid answers.

If you are more specific, I'm an atheist in all the religions i'm currently know about.  Otherwise, I'm a "I don't know" agnostic.   I plead ignorance but not because I lack courage.  I don't believe in an afterlife.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:30 PM
Our elected officials have lost their farking minds.

/NC native.
//Our state tree should be the facepalm.
 
2013-04-11 03:57:48 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: //Our state tree should be the facepalm.


I don't know if that's an oldie that I've just never seen before, but I love it.
 
2013-04-11 04:26:54 PM

Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.


I often see people describe Mao's China, Stailin's Soviet Union or Hitler's Germany as athiest states.  It would be wrong IMO to call those states atheist, because their 'theism' was the belief in their leader.
Although they were human, the power they had transcended that of a dictator or king, but bordered on that of a defacto deiety.  China under Mao didn't have atheism as the state religion, but rather the state religion was Maoism.
 
2013-04-11 04:31:07 PM

mrshowrules: I don't think belief is necessarily a "Boolean" value. If you ask me if you are married, I will say that I don't know. That question allows for a valid a neutral value.


That one does, yes, because I'm asking you about the specifics of a real life situation, for which lack of knowledge on your part is a valid cop-out for refusing to answer the question... However, if I instead asked you "Do you believe I am married?", you have all the info you need to know whether or not you believe that... It doesn't matter how certain you are in your belief or lack thereof only whether or not you have it... In the case where you are fully neutral, and don't have any guess one way or the other as to whether or not I'm married, you would be accurate to answer "no" to the "Do you believe?" question, because you don't have an active belief that I'm married... Just because you also don't have an active believe that I'm not married doesn't change that at all...

/Not married, BTW... ;-)

But, answering "I don't know" to a "Do you believe?" question is just kind of bizarre, because it is saying that you have no insight into your own mind and can't determine whether or not you have a particular belief...

Perhaps a Boolean value if you ask a more specific question. Do you believe Jesus is God, who gave birth to himself and lives in the sky waiting for me in the afterlife, I would say no. If you take a broadest possible concept of god(s). It becomes difficult to pose the question and demand a straight yes or no answer. In the broadest sense the question could be asked "Does life having meaning?" The possibility of a higher meaning could in itself be interpreted as god.

At some point "I don't know" is more valid/honest than "yes" or "no".


I understand what you're saying, but "I don't know" isn't actually answering the "Do you believe?" question... It's answering the question about the reality of the situation... If someone asks you "Is there a god?", then "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer... If instead they ask you "Do you believe in a god?", then "I don't know" doesn't make a lot of sense... Unless maybe you've got multiple personality disorder, and can't be sure whether or not some of your personalities might... But, otherwise, surely you know whether or not you have a belief in any kind of god, no matter what form it might take? Saying you don't doesn't mean you're ruling it out or definitely declaring there is no god; it's merely saying you don't have a belief in one right now...
 
2013-04-11 04:38:50 PM

madgonad: Silverstaff: All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.

So you would consider that Apple Inc is a religion then?

-trying to evangelize other? check
-believing that others are inherently wrong? check
-using symbols to sum up beliefs? check
-public meetings? check
-ceremonies and rites, like the annual line-up outside the Apple store? check

As an added bonus - Apple also passes around the collection plate and has a central god-like leader.


There's a reason that they are sometimes jokingly called the "Cult of Cupertino", because of their almost quasi-religious behavior.  They aren't really a religion, but they do have some superficial resemblances.

Atheism crosses that line into being religion-like (at least frequently enough that claiming that it isn't a religion as an absolute is a problem) because they relate those various religion-like behaviors specifically to the matter of man's interaction with a higher power/divinity.  In this case, to deny it's existence, but it is still all those actions relative to that issue.
 
2013-04-11 04:43:00 PM

Pangea: Summer Glau's Love Slave: //Our state tree should be the facepalm.

I don't know if that's an oldie that I've just never seen before, but I love it.


I second that.

/facepalming NC native
 
2013-04-11 04:44:22 PM

ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?


The proper use of the term agnostic is an adjective describing the "knowability" of a subject (any subject; not just religion). But people have bastardized the term to make it a noun describing a person's position on religion.

The modern (i.e. recently invented) use of the term describes someone who is either a fence sitter between atheist and theist or a person who believes that the existence of god cannot be known. Both of these uses are common but neither is as you describe.

What you are describing is an atheist ... literal translation is a (= without) theism (=god). "Without god" ... or, since we cannot prove the non-existence, the more practical definition is "without belief in god".

But, as I've tried to remind people, it really is irrelevant what name we use for ourselves. The fact is that the vast majority of atheists do not believe in gods but also do not make the positive claim that gods do not or cannot exist. These are the facts ... make up all the names you want but leave your strawmen at home please.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:00 PM

Silverstaff: Atheism A tiny percentage of atheists crosses that line into being religion-like (at least frequently enough that claiming that it isn't a religion as an absolute is a problem) because they relate those various religion-like behaviors specifically to the matter of man's interaction with a higher power/divinity. In this case, to deny it's existence, but it is still all those actions relative to that issue.


You still don't get it do you? You cannot generalize these statements across the millions of people. You are building a strawman ... it is blatantly dishonest.
 
2013-04-11 04:49:20 PM

Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.


Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"
 
2013-04-11 04:51:28 PM

Zasteva: Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses.


Well, as for atheist church services, I gave a link earlier, but I'll repeat it:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ First Church of Atheism, which offers ULC-style free online ordination to Atheist Ministers so they can perform weddings and other clergy-specific functions legally.

So, that's Atheist ordination in addition to Atheist "unbaptism" (Yes, I know most atheists don't do these things, but the fact that some atheist groups explicitly organize themselves as "churches" complete with ministers, ordinations and Sunday-morning services makes it really easy to say that it is a religion to those who want to call it that.  To those who are atheistic without those trappings and don't want to be seen as Atheism-as-a-religion, you might want to do the Jon Stewart thing and let them know that "You're NOT helping.")

The Sunday Assembly A full-service Atheist Church in London, England, using an old Christian church as its premises, complete with the Sunday services implied by its name.

(Some other articles about The Sunday Assembly Atheist Church:
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/atheist-church-huge-success-lo n don-article-1.1257274 Nice article about how popular the Atheist Church is in London.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/events/128 Sunday Assembly services being promoted on Richard Dawkins's website

https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayAssembly  (Their Facebook Page)
 
2013-04-11 04:54:45 PM

Silverstaff: Zasteva: Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses.

Well, as for atheist church services, I gave a link earlier, but I'll repeat it:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ First Church of Atheism, which offers ULC-style free online ordination to Atheist Ministers so they can perform weddings and other clergy-specific functions legally.

So, that's Atheist ordination in addition to Atheist "unbaptism" (Yes, I know most atheists don't do these things, but the fact that some atheist groups explicitly organize themselves as "churches" complete with ministers, ordinations and Sunday-morning services makes it really easy to say that it is a religion to those who want to call it that.  To those who are atheistic without those trappings and don't want to be seen as Atheism-as-a-religion, you might want to do the Jon Stewart thing and let them know that "You're NOT helping.")

The Sunday Assembly A full-service Atheist Church in London, England, using an old Christian church as its premises, complete with the Sunday services implied by its name.

(Some other articles about The Sunday Assembly Atheist Church:
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/atheist-church-huge-success-lo n don-article-1.1257274 Nice article about how popular the Atheist Church is in London.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/events/128 Sunday Assembly services being promoted on Richard Dawkins's website

https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayAssembly  (Their Facebook Page)


And you continue to repeat this blatant stupidity.

The total number of people that participated in these events comprises a tiny percentage of atheists. Continuing to suggest that these very few people represent the millions of atheists world-wide is blatant dishonesty.

You are a liar!
 
2013-04-11 05:00:40 PM

neongoats: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.

Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"


When did I say I worshiped mammon, or any specific deity?  I've said it before, go ahead, when have I ever claimed on Fark that I was a worshipper of the God of Abraham/Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus/Allah ect?  I gave up organized, formal religion 16 years ago.

However, look on this very thread for plenty of examples of Atheist bigotry and hatred, and stereotyping.

Just because I have pointed out religious trappings in Atheism as currently practiced, noting that they rise to the definition of being a religion through their practices in how they've turned a simple denial of divinity into something more complicated, I've been:

1. Called a "primitive savage fark", by you.
2. Accused of worshipping mammon, by you.
3. Accused of blindly following Pat Robertson and other evangelists/fundamentalists, by Deathfrogg.
4. Accused of being a troll by many posters.

Just because I've made this argument, without me ever saying anything about being of any Abrahamic belief system.  That's all your own stereotyping and bigotry.  Try cleaning up your own behavior.  Not everybody who is fed up with self-righteous Atheists is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, or of any mainstream religion.

If you keep insulting theists and other insults to religion, and stereotyping everyone of theistic belief as being Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists or "primitive savage farks" as you call it, you're going to be treated like you have an irrational hatred of theists.  Everything you've done in this thread has just backed up and supported my prior opinion of Atheism, you're acting with the same zealotry as a fundie who sees somebody dissing Jesus.
 
2013-04-11 05:19:49 PM

Farking Canuck: And you continue to repeat this blatant stupidity.

The total number of people that participated in these events comprises a tiny percentage of atheists. Continuing to suggest that these very few people represent the millions of atheists world-wide is blatant dishonesty.

You are a liar!


Someone doubted that there were Atheist church services, I provided sources of multiple Atheist churches, including one providing atheistic ordination.

Calling me a liar?  For a belief system built on logic and reason, you sure are getting emotional.  Sure are showing that "we're not really a religion, we're better because we don't have all that religious hatred and irrationality" when you flip out and go berserk on somebody suggesting you're sure acting like it's a religion.

The more you freak out, the more you act with fundamentalist zealotry to say you aren't a religion, the more you act like one.  Realize that the level of derp you're shoveling out is right up there with religious zealots, and it's of the same "you said something about my belief system I disagree with, so I must shout at you and insult you!" type.

You don't want to be called a religion, because you don't like to be associated with the behavior of religious types, but you act just like the deeply religious when anybody disagrees with you (i.e. says your religion is actually a religion).

That's actually my problem with Atheism: not that they don't believe the same as me (I don't care what you believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself), but that they like to get in my face and mock my beliefs and lecture about how they are right and everyone else is wrong.  Invisible Sky Wizard, Invisible Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster and such, intentional mockeries of religion done to be insulting.  The talk of religion being a mental illness, of belief in God being delusional, that's my problem, an active lack of respect for the peaceable beliefs and practices of others.  (I'll mock Scientology all day, but they aren't peaceable, that's more of an organized crime syndicate/scam with the fig leaf of religion, see also Lisa McPherson, Operation Freakout, Operation Snow White ect.)

Yes, only a minority of atheists attend those services, or pursue "unbaptism" and such, but it is clear that there is the practice out there of atheism with all the trappings and behavior of a religion.  It's also clear that there are atheists out there with as much zealotry about their beliefs as any theist.

Then again, how many Christians regularly attend services instead of just kinda being religious and Christian but not really attend a specific Church and are part of a denomination in name only and if you didn't know better weren't of any real religion, because being Christian is the norm in the west?  How many Buddhists are so in only the most token fashion because it's expected in most Asian societies and don't really know the details of the eightfold path or the four noble truths?  How many Jews are non-practicing in that if they had to list a religion they'd say they were of the Hebrew faith, but haven't been to a synagogue in many years or decades (or may not even have had a bar/bat mitzvah).
 
2013-04-11 05:23:26 PM

Silverstaff: neongoats: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.

Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"

When did I say I worshiped mammon, or any specific deity?  I've said it before, go ahead, when have I ever claimed on Fark that I was a worshipper of the God of Abraham/Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus/Allah ect?  I gave up organized, formal religion 16 years ago.

However, look on this very thread for plenty of examples of Atheist bigotry and hatred, and stereotyping.

Just because I have pointed out religious trappings in Atheism as currently practiced, noting that they rise to the definition of being a religion through their practices in how they've turned a simple denial of divinity into something more complicated, I've been:

1. Called a "primitive savage fark", by you.
2. Accused of worshipping mammon, by you.
3. Accused of blindly following Pat Robertson and other evangelists/fundamentalists, by Deathfrogg.
4. Accused of being a troll by many posters.

Just because I've made this argument, without me ever saying anything about being of any Abrahamic belief system.  That's all your own stereotyping and bigotry.  Try cleaning up your own behavior.  Not everybody who is fed up with self-righteous Atheists is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, or of any mainstream religion.

If you keep insulting theists and other insults to religion, and stereotyping everyone of theistic belief as being Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists or "primitive savage farks" as you call it, you're going to be treated like you have an irrational hatred of theists.  Everything you've done in this thread has just backed up and supported my ...


Hint: all of your butthurt is irrelevant. I don't have to like you. I don't have to respect your religion, or lack of it. I don't give a shiat about you or your life.

What I do give a shiat about, is freedom. Freedom to think you are a dickhole, freedom to worship something, freedom to not worship something. You see, I'm not trying to legislate Christianity out of existence. I'm not trying to drive worshippers into the sea with fire and pitchforks.(amusing as that might be) And I'm not constantly trying to get hurpers to legislate my lack of religion into law.

Hint: if you want freedom for Jesus, you damn well better support freedom for Behelifet, freedom for Thor, freedom for Allah, and freedom for atheists to think all of the above are delusions. Anything less is unacceptable.

How can you even make your argument and not feel stupid.

Thread: hey bumpkins, stop trying to end run the Constitution and force Jesus as a state religion, k
you: but Atheists are mean to me, therefor it's cool
Thread: you can worship what you want, what you can't do is legislate it into law
you: but atheists are a religion, and they are MEAN so its ok to make jesusy stuff law
Thread: no, really, its not. Everyone should be free to worship as they wish, and not involve the government
you: but atheists are a religion and they keep saying mean things
Thread: but they aren't systematically stripping you of your civil rights, right?
you: doesn't matter, they were mean, therefor NC should make jesus compulsory
Thread: sorry, no
you: stop being mean
Thread: no
 
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