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(Huffington Post)   North Carolina: "We must lift the ban on religion in public places" Constituent: "So then would you support Islamic prayers being said before meetings?". Legislator: "Of course not, that would be terrorism"   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 494
    More: Asinine, Muslim prayers, Michele Presnell, North Carolina, Islamic, News & Observer, Carl Paladino, Congressional Progressive Caucus, establishment of religion  
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15026 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 6:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-11 09:45:09 AM

Fart_Machine: Crewmannumber6:

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiestatheist extremists?

No, they were brutal dictators.


Marx was a dictator?
 
2013-04-11 09:45:37 AM

Silverstaff: As for militant atheists, if you

blah, blah, blah, etc.

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all. Now, a question: do you believe that if government remains silent on religion, it is endorsing atheism? Do you believe that government institutions should publicly conduct religious ceremonies? Because that is what is actually under discussion here.
I don't hear any "atheists" demanding an atheist invocations by government officials. Do you? Can you provide a citation of this?
The rest of this crap is an irrelevant red herring argument, designed to distract from the issue this woman's statements raise.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:16 AM

Thunderboy: Fart_Machine: Crewmannumber6:

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiestatheist extremists?

No, they were brutal dictators.

Marx was a dictator?


Ah, you got me.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:45 AM
 
2013-04-11 09:47:46 AM

Silverstaff: Karac: Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.

What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.  I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist.  That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

What about atheists who filed lawsuits against the Federal Government because astronauts were so moved by the sight of the Earth from space that they spontaneously said a prayer out loud, and wanted Astronauts from being banned from prayer during spaceflight?  Madeline Murray O'Hare did that one back in the Apollo era.

As for militant atheists, if you'll check that link I posted, back in the 1920's through 1940's there was indeed a "League of Militant Atheists" who went around demolishing churches, imprisoning clergy, and working towards an avowed goal of the eradication of all religion.  Yes, they were an arm of the government of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean they were not atheists who were militant to the desire to crush theism and oppress people because they believed differently.


Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.
 
2013-04-11 09:50:18 AM

Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.


I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:23 AM

Silverstaff: Nice strawman you're trying to build of what I said.

I listed symbols as the last thing on a long list of things that atheists have been doing that have taken atheism from simply not believing in God to a complete belief system/religion.


Pointing out the flaws in your argument isn't a strawman.  Basically you've used a few individual anecdotes (like a comedian performing an unbaptism) and defined a non-belief as a religion.  I'm sorry but you look silly.   Also writing a book offering a logical criticism against religion doesn't make it a "dogmatic religious text".  Just like writing a book skeptical of Bigfoot doesn't make it a religion of anti-Bigfoot.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:55 AM

Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.


He doesn't want to talk about that. He likes the "atheism is a religion argument" - but when you concede his "point" and ask him about who is ACTUALLY trying to force their religion on the rest of us through government ................ crickets.
 
2013-04-11 09:56:26 AM

Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.


That's what I think is so funny. All he's doing is proving people are dicks. Thanks for the update Rick. People of all bents are dicks, one group of the people actively seek political power and try to use that power to codify their religious beliefs into law and prevent the constitutionally protected rights of religions they don't like.

The other group is made up mostly of people who are meanie heads on the Internet. Silverstaff is bent out of shape about the latter, because he's got his priorities straight.
 
2013-04-11 09:57:16 AM

Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.


Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).
 
2013-04-11 09:57:48 AM

Fart_Machine: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

Some people are jerks therefore it's a religion.  Your logic is inescapable.


Been having a think and it struck me: The reason Religious folks don't understand the basic principle of logic - that something asserted has to be proven wheras the absence of that assertion doesn't - goes right to the core of their own belief.. That faith is an assertion that, by definition, cannot be proven and that the refutation of it is therefore heresy.

Therefore because they have the positive assertion thing all backwards an Atheist saying "I don't believe there is a god" sounds to them like "There is no god" ... (Of course many atheists may pronounce this since they're not beholden to a positive assertion but would concede that they actually mean, when pressed by a pedant, "I don't believe there is a god" (unless they're a jerk, as you say))
 
2013-04-11 09:58:05 AM

UNC_Samurai: Egoy3k: Bear with me I'm going from memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life.

Just in case you missed it.


I figured somebody would have done a better job than I did I guess I should have read the thread to see that someone already had.
 
2013-04-11 09:58:18 AM
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, world views, and customs. Since atheists aren't organized and merely share one common lack of belief, I don't see how they qualify, even if you consider that some of them write books or make jokes that others read or laugh at. You may disagree with the way atheists express their opinions but that does not mean you can invent new definitions for existing words to classify them with.
 
2013-04-11 09:58:39 AM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one. Don't get in other peoples faces about it. Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


I never realized that mockery and "getting in peoples faces" were the only qualifications for a religion.
 
2013-04-11 09:59:50 AM

Somacandra: [www.tdpri.com image 313x350]

"We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"


Methodists? In NC? They would be flayed for such a crime. The Baptists in the area barely tolerate the Presbyterians, detest the Catholics, Anglicans, make fun of the Pentacostals for they are the true crazies, even if they are useful at times to throw as cannonfodder against the other sects,  and everyone else is a vile evil cult going against the one true sect. They are utter nutjobs. At least around this area. It kind of scary.

Of course this is also the area that keeps voting in Virginia Foxx into office.
 
2013-04-11 10:00:00 AM
Silverstaff: 

I'm not Christian

No, you're a troll.. we know that.


/not saying Christians can't be trolls
//anymore more than atheists can't be extremists
 
2013-04-11 10:00:10 AM

natas6.0: yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like


Then we'll make sure that it is something you don't like, so you can always be the one to walk the fark out.

Deal?
 
2013-04-11 10:00:16 AM

Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049


So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum
 
2013-04-11 10:00:28 AM

Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).


Rick Warren is a New Apostolic Reformation preacher that opens his mouth and makes Pat Robertson look almost sane. Sarah Palin's and Louie Gohmert's church. Real Nazism wrapped in the words of Christianity.
 
2013-04-11 10:00:42 AM

The Homer Tax: Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.

That's what I think is so funny. All he's doing is proving people are dicks. Thanks for the update Rick. People of all bents are dicks, one group of the people actively seek political power and try to use that power to codify their religious beliefs into law and prevent the constitutionally protected rights of religions they don't like.

The other group is made up mostly of people who are meanie heads on the Internet. Silverstaff is bent out of shape about the latter, because he's got his priorities straight.


I've pretty much accepted that he refuses to discuss the issue.
 
2013-04-11 10:03:01 AM

Egoy3k: Bear with me I'm going from  memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life. The goal of the perfect sate (communism in his opinion) should be to remove the NEED for religion. In other words people should be so happy and content that they don't need religion to make them feel better. The problem is communism sucks and people were miserable.  In order to have political power (and thus any real prospects for employment) you needed to be a party member in good standing. Going to church was a sign of malcontent and pretty much a death sentence for your life as a party member.Some states went even further in attempts to prove their systems validity and outlawed religion. For some reason communism has a real inferiority complex and needs to show the world how perfect their 'radiant future' is. So basically instead of actually fixing their problems they just outlawed people from acting as if there were problems.


I seem to remember a large part of why religions were banned was because they created a power center for resistance against the state, in the same way that trade unions were a threat and were taken over or dissolved by the government to avoid becoming a launching pad for rebellion.

CPennypacker: Did I step into a timewarp? "Atheism is a religion" on Fark in 2013? The fark?


I presume the entire point of that line of argument is if you can persuade people that atheism is a religion, then they shouldn't be able to interfere with what government does any more than other religions. Basically when Christians try to insert their prayer into a council meeting or whatever, they get told they can't due to the 1st Amendment, so then they try to frame it that not praying at a council meeting is part of the "Atheist Religion" and hence not praying should equally be disallowed by the 1st Amendment.
 
2013-04-11 10:03:31 AM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one.


Do you believe that all christians are abortion doctor murderers?

Some are so, by your logic, all are. Right?
 
2013-04-11 10:03:36 AM
She makes me ashamed to live in NC.  =(
 
2013-04-11 10:03:41 AM

log_jammin: Karac: One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"

OMG....that is simply an awesome idea!


I think the Latin would probably do the job.

for the record,

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;adveniat Regnum Tuum;fiat voluntas Tua,sicut in caelo, et in terra.Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;et dimitte nobis debita nostra,sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;et ne nos inducas in tentationem;sed libera nos a Malo.Amen.
 
2013-04-11 10:04:25 AM

Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).


I still don't know what opinion you're disagreeing with; the opinion that there is no god or the opinion that government should not endorse a religion. Because "atheism is not a religion" isn't opinion, it's fact. Even if a group of atheists get together and read chapters out of a Dawkins book out loud to each other that is not a religious gathering. If they started praying to Dawkins and expected him to actually use magic powers to hear and answer their prayers, then you might have a point.
 
2013-04-11 10:06:29 AM

limeyfellow: Somacandra: [www.tdpri.com image 313x350]

"We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"

Methodists? In NC? They would be flayed for such a crime. The Baptists in the area barely tolerate the Presbyterians, detest the Catholics, Anglicans, make fun of the Pentacostals for they are the true crazies, even if they are useful at times to throw as cannonfodder against the other sects,  and everyone else is a vile evil cult going against the one true sect. They are utter nutjobs. At least around this area. It kind of scary.

Of course this is also the area that keeps voting in Virginia Foxx into office.


I was raised a Methodist in NC.  That's mostly true.

/Baptists freaking scare me sometimes
 
2013-04-11 10:07:12 AM

Mr. Cat Poop: Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).

I still don't know what opinion you're disagreeing with; the opinion that there is no god or the opinion that government should not endorse a religion. Because "atheism is not a religion" isn't opinion, it's fact. Even if a group of atheists get together and read chapters out of a Dawkins book out loud to each other that is not a religious gathering. If they started praying to Dawkins and expected him to actually use magic powers to hear and answer their prayers, then you might have a point.


He's trying to establish, I think, that if government is silent on the subject of religion, it is violating the first amendment, because atheism is a religion, or something. I don't know, because he won't say.
 
2013-04-11 10:09:24 AM

Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum


Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)
 
2013-04-11 10:11:00 AM

jso2897: Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.

He doesn't want to talk about that. He likes the "atheism is a religion argument" - but when you concede his "point" and ask him about who is ACTUALLY trying to force their religion on the rest of us through government ................ crickets.


Oh, I'll freely admit that there are very, very few cases of atheists trying to force their belief system on other people.  (I would say that the O'Hair lawsuit about the Apollo program would could).  It's certainly not common.

I wasn't trying to argue that it was, I don't believe I ever tried to argue that here, or anywhere.  All this time I was rebutting the idea that atheism is not a religion.

jso2897: Silverstaff: As for militant atheists, if you blah, blah, blah, etc.

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all. Now, a question: do you believe that if government remains silent on religion, it is endorsing atheism? Do you believe that government institutions should publicly conduct religious ceremonies? Because that is what is actually under discussion here.
I don't hear any "atheists" demanding an atheist invocations by government officials. Do you? Can you provide a citation of this?
The rest of this crap is an irrelevant red herring argument, designed to distract from the issue this woman's statements raise.


If a government is silent on religion, it's not endorsing atheism.  Just plain leaving God out in any way, shape or form is what the US should be doing.

Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.

We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists.  The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.

When people start organizing together, reading books about how God doesn't exist, holding meetings together on that subject in a place devoted to that belief, trying to convince others that what they believe true, going around on the Internet saying they hope that religion will be declared a mental illness, and use symbols to describe their collective lack of belief. . .then you've gone Atheist.
 
2013-04-11 10:11:29 AM

Langdon_777: Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum

Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)


Even cancer cells?
 
2013-04-11 10:13:27 AM

Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.


Sadly, many interpret this to mean that you do in fact need to be worshipping something.
 
2013-04-11 10:17:06 AM
And this is why I don't support prayer in school.

/CSB: A hundred years ago, in a persuasive speaking course in college, I started a speech on prayer in school with a Satanic prayer. Half the class left, proving my point 30 seconds in to a seven minute speech.
 
2013-04-11 10:18:02 AM

Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Because we don't want to believe that you are really that much of a fool.
We'd much rather give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you are posting deliberately provocative statements in order to stimulate emtion outbursts in others.

Perhaps we are giving you too much credit.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:34 AM
I didn't read the whole thread, but there is more info about it here:   http://www.wral.com/national-group-calls-on-gop-to-repudiate-nc-lawma k er-/12326400/

"No, I do not condone terrorism," Presnell responded. "Britt, we just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom, or it will be whisked away from us."

"I am saddened that you make a leap from Allah to terrorism so quickly," Kaufmann responded. "If the state sets a precedent of choosing one religion above others, we have to be prepared for any religion to be chosen as the preferential one."

"No, you are wrong," Presnell responded. "Have a good day."

 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.


Amazing.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:38 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


This is incorrect. If they are "without god", as anyone who has never even heard of the concept would be, then they are atheist - this is the direct translation of the word.

You have been beaten 7 ways from Sunday on this issue and you still are sticking to your guns. That in itself is almost a religious belief. I say 'almost' because I would never actually arbitrarily call something a religion ... I am not an idiot.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:54 AM

Lackofname: spongeboob: Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?

Dude, I don't think the average American would even vote for an atheist.


DUUUDE, the avereage American doesn't even vote at all (thank the FSM, I mean could you imagine how bad things would be if the stupider half of America got off their couches and voted). Only around 55% of registered voters voted in the last PRESIDENTIAL election, mid-terms are even lower and some special elections get to be where 3 old ladies turn up by accident thinking it was bingo night and vote instead. And that was registered voters, not everyone registers, from 2008-2012 8 milion MORE people registered to vote but 5 million FEWER actually voted.

Thank the FSM for the apathy of the incredibly stupid so the truly stupid can get on with governing.
 
2013-04-11 10:20:17 AM

Silverstaff: Why the  hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Okay. I'm going to take you seriously. I'll start by apologizing for my snarky "you've reached the middle ages" comment earlier.

I see from your profile that you describe yourself as a peace officer. I'm guessing that you have that job at least partly because you dislike criminal behavior and want help protect people from violence. I noticed you specifically mentioned that people sometimes call you a fascist  because of your job.

Atheists dislike theist behavior and want to protect people from the irrationality, harm and violence that often comes about from theist irrationality (this is not to say that atheists are always rational or non-violent).

When people tell us that we are just practicing our own religion, you are saying that we are theists. Since this is exactly the opposite of what we are, it's a little offensive to many of us. Just like many peace officers would be offended to be called fascists or violent criminals.

No, I'm not a troll.  Yes, that's what I believe.  Yes, there are atheists who aren't full-derp doing these things.  I find it amusing that I can say something, support it with evidence, and be called a troll because I disagree with the atheistic groupthink.

We understand it's what you believe. Most atheists prefer an evidence based approach to shaping our world-view, rather than a belief based one. The evidence for atheism as a religion that you've presented is flimsy and easily refuted (please see my earlier reply to your evidence).

I'd be happy to have a serious discussion with you about this and I promise to refrain from further snark.
 
2013-04-11 10:25:26 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


That is an accurate description of an atheist.
 
2013-04-11 10:26:35 AM

Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.


This is the only important part - and on this we agree.

When people start organizing together, reading books about how God doesn't exist, holding meetings together on that subject in a place devoted to that belief, trying to convince others that what they believe true, going around on the Internet saying they hope that religion will be declared a mental illness, and use symbols to describe their collective lack of belief. . .then you've gone Atheist.

Yeah, sure, whatever. You can call "atheism" a religion, a rock band, or a motorcycle gang for all I care - that argument is for stupid people to waste time on. Even if I self-identified as an "atheist", I wouldn't care what somebody else called it.
 
2013-04-11 10:27:00 AM

stonicus: Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.

Sadly, many interpret this to mean that you do in fact need to be worshipping something.


It could also be argued that a lot of people came to this country to escape the oppression of State Religions. Russians came to the United States by the tens of thousands in the 1870s and 1880s because the State religion was a primary instrument of the Czarists to maintain serfdom. Chinese came to the United States because the State religion was a primary instrument that maintained their Emperors rule.

On the flipside, the Puritans came to North America because they had been more or less thrown out of England for their constant subversion of parliamentary rule after their extremist Calvinism conflicted with the milder form of Christianity represented by the Anglican Church, who tolerated Catholicism to some degree, especially after the English Restoration in 1660.
 
2013-04-11 10:28:29 AM

Silverstaff: Karac: Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.

What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.  I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist.  That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

What about atheists who filed lawsuits against the Federal Government because astronauts were so moved by the sight of the Earth from space that they spontaneously said a prayer out loud, and wanted Astronauts from being banned from prayer during spaceflight?  Madeline Murray O'Hare did that one back in the Apollo era.

As for militant atheists, if you'll check that link I posted, back in the 1920's through 1940's there was indeed a "League of Militant Atheists" who went around demolishing churches, imprisoning clergy, and working towards an avowed goal of the eradication of all religion.  Yes, they were an arm of the government of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean they were not atheists who were militant to the desire to crush theism and oppress people because they believed differently.


Most of that sounds like backlash for centuries of Christians trying to shove their beliefs and way of life down everyone else's throats.

As far as religious folks possibly being mentally ill goes, there's a strange phenomenon that happens when some religious people start talking about God; they get this strange look in their eyes, and their voice gets slow and steady, either like A) they've been brainwashed and are spouting out a pre-recorded message, B) they're trying to hypnotize you, or C) possibly both. This is probably part of the reason some atheists think religious people are crazy. (to be fair, it's probably an adrenal reaction that comes from talking about something that's exciting and important, but that usually makes people talk quickly, not slow and steady...)

Not to mention the sever cognitive dissonance necessary to decry one religion as terrorism and that it shouldn't be allowed, then in the next sentence saying we need to "protect our religious freedoms". Which is what this whole thread is about. It's hard to play the "atheists are bad and think we're all crazy" card when the topic of discussion is about a christian who thinks the first amendment doesn't apply to her and her state, then turns around and absolutely proves why the "no establishment" clause is necessary, and is none the wiser.
 
2013-04-11 10:29:41 AM

mike_d85: NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?

This.

/South Carolinian


I am so sorry. And please stop crossing the imaginary line into Charlotte. All of you drive like shiat. Thank you.
 
2013-04-11 10:29:52 AM
scottydoesntknow:The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Bears repeating.jpg
 
2013-04-11 10:30:18 AM

stonicus: Langdon_777: Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum

Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)

Even cancer cells?


Alas yes.

As a general rule the cancer cells that are in ALL of our bodies do not try to take over, its when they go insane that problems happen :(
 
2013-04-11 10:32:29 AM

2wolves: Goes to Callista Gringrich's hair dresser.


And then doesn't sit straight in the chair.
 
2013-04-11 10:35:42 AM

Somacandra: spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.
[i.imgur.com image 344x270]
Roman Catholics strangling and roasting Dutch Mennonites in 1554.
[i.imgur.com image 280x375]French Protestants liberating the entrails of Catholics in 1607.
Yeah....we've seen that movie before and *Spoiler Alert*: It doesn't end well.


Led to some pretty good games, though.
bigboardgames.net
cf.geekdo-images.com
/hot as Henry VIII's wives' pregnancy chart
 
2013-04-11 10:36:03 AM

Crabs_Can_Polevault: 2wolves: Goes to Callista Gringrich's hair dresser.

And then doesn't sit straight in the chair.


And constantly fidgets and chatters like a 13 year old cheerleader on bath salts.
 
2013-04-11 10:38:01 AM

catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?



Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.
 
2013-04-11 10:40:28 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

When presented with a binary option (Is there at least one higher power that can be considered god-like?), the atheists look at existing observations and believe that there is no further explanation. Theists look at the same observations and believe that a higher authority is responsible for the complexity of life. Both are equally supported by philosophy. Atheists simply believe that the null hypothesis (ie no evidence suggesting a god has interacted with creation) is the standard. It's not a religion.

There. Now that's settled. We can stay on the topic of making fun of North Carolina.


More specifically, atheism and religion are both life stances.
 
2013-04-11 10:40:58 AM

ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.


I agree, can we start throwing them out of office when they go against the constitution? Or is that just for republicans? If the former, we can start with everyone who is trying to infringe on teh 2nd.
 
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