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(Huffington Post)   North Carolina: "We must lift the ban on religion in public places" Constituent: "So then would you support Islamic prayers being said before meetings?". Legislator: "Of course not, that would be terrorism"   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 494
    More: Asinine, Muslim prayers, Michele Presnell, North Carolina, Islamic, News & Observer, Carl Paladino, Congressional Progressive Caucus, establishment of religion  
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15035 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2013 at 6:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



494 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2013-04-10 07:44:35 PM
Of course.
 
2013-04-10 07:45:31 PM
How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?
 
2013-04-10 07:47:32 PM
If the Republican Party hopes to reach out to minority groups, it must clearly and forcefully repudiate such bigoted comments by its representatives," the group's National Legislative Director Corey Saylor said in a statement.

I'm just not seeing this happen.
 
2013-04-10 07:49:43 PM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


CVS cashiers are even dumber.
 
2013-04-10 07:50:47 PM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


I bet she is adequately representing her ass-backwards redneck constituents. She'll probably win her next election in a land slide.
 
2013-04-10 07:52:00 PM
I couldn't even make it past this farking picture without laughing.

i.huffpost.com

"No, I do not condone terrorism," Presnell responded, according to the report. "We just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom or it will be whisked away from us."

The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.
 
2013-04-10 07:52:10 PM
I WILL EAT YOUR FACE

i.huffpost.com
 
2013-04-10 07:52:23 PM

Nadie_AZ: If the Republican Party hopes to reach out to minority groups, it must clearly and forcefully repudiate such bigoted comments by its representatives," the group's National Legislative Director Corey Saylor said in a statement.

I'm just not seeing this happen.


It won't, mainly because bigotry is one of the GOP's core values.
 
2013-04-10 07:53:10 PM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


CVS  has standards.
 
2013-04-10 07:53:24 PM

scottydoesntknow: I couldn't even make it past this farking picture without laughing.

[i.huffpost.com image 570x238]


DAMMIT beat me by less than a minute.

I said out loud "What the fark is that?" when I saw that picture. For realz.
 
2013-04-10 07:56:36 PM
On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.
 
2013-04-10 07:57:01 PM
Another uneducated bigoted politician?

Color me shocked
 
2013-04-10 07:58:14 PM
Please use the Obvious tag on articles where the GOP is befuddled by logical consistency. TY and have a nice penis.
 
2013-04-10 07:59:38 PM
i.huffpost.com

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.
 
2013-04-10 08:02:46 PM

b0rscht: scottydoesntknow: I couldn't even make it past this farking picture without laughing.

[i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

DAMMIT beat me by less than a minute.

I said out loud "What the fark is that?" when I saw that picture. For realz.


I like your caption though, works perfectly. She's like one of those women you see in horror movies where from far away she looks like a sweet lady, but the closer you get the more hellish she looks. Until a demon erupts from her mouth and eats your face.
 
2013-04-10 08:08:55 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: [i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


She looks English

iats not just the teeth that gave her away. It is her facial features
 
2013-04-10 08:11:25 PM
Goes to Callista Gringrich's hair dresser.
 
2013-04-10 08:14:28 PM
Screw you, subby. If you're going to outright lie about what someone says, at least make it f...


Holy shiat.

Sorry, subby.
 
2013-04-10 08:17:00 PM
Color me shocked at this news.
 
2013-04-10 08:19:40 PM
Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?
 
2013-04-10 08:21:56 PM
FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?
 
2013-04-10 08:22:03 PM

scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.


Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?
 
2013-04-10 08:22:14 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?


I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.
 
2013-04-10 08:25:20 PM
I always like to visit North Carolina once a year to visit in-laws and BBQ the pig. Once
 
2013-04-10 08:27:21 PM
Well, she's right. Muslim prayers have no business being part of official government functions.

Nor do any other religion's prayers.
 
2013-04-10 08:31:54 PM

spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.


Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

When presented with a binary option (Is there at least one higher power that can be considered god-like?), the atheists look at existing observations and believe that there is no further explanation. Theists look at the same observations and believe that a higher authority is responsible for the complexity of life. Both are equally supported by philosophy. Atheists simply believe that the null hypothesis (ie no evidence suggesting a god has interacted with creation) is the standard. It's not a religion.

There. Now that's settled. We can stay on the topic of making fun of North Carolina.
 
2013-04-10 08:33:29 PM
i.huffpost.com
i915.photobucket.com

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-10 08:34:46 PM

spongeboob: I don't think any atheist will admit that.


A real head scratcher, that.
 
2013-04-10 08:40:06 PM

spongeboob: I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion. I don't think any atheist will admit that.


Is that like "admitting" that rain falls up?
 
2013-04-10 08:44:19 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.


More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.
 
2013-04-10 08:47:51 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

When presented with a binary option (Is there at least one higher power that can be considered god-like?), the atheists look at existing observations and believe that there is no further explanation. Theists look at the same observations and believe that a higher authority is responsible for the complexity of life. Both are equally supported by philosophy. Atheists simply believe that the null hypothesis (ie no evidence suggesting a god has interacted with creation) is the standard. It's not a religion.

There. Now that's settled. We can stay on the topic of making fun of North Carolina.


The argument that I think Republicans would use
It is Freedom of Religion not Freedom of  a belief system, so if you want to be treated like a religion you need to be  willing to admit that atheism is a religion.


/shouldn't it be Best Carolina
 
2013-04-10 08:50:23 PM

spongeboob: The argument that I think Republicans would use
It is Freedom of Religion not Freedom of a belief system, so if you want to be treated like a religion you need to be willing to admit that atheism is a religion.


/shouldn't it be Best Carolina


Republicans also use the argument that unfettered capitalism is good for those at the mercy of the owning class because the most observable metric of a bull market is the wealthy getting wealthier.
 
2013-04-10 08:52:14 PM

kronicfeld: spongeboob: I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion. I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Is that like "admitting" that rain falls up?


perhaps I should have said in order to be treated the same as a religion atheist would need to claim that atheism is/is like a religion.
 
2013-04-10 08:58:34 PM
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comi.huffpost.com
am I the only one that sees it.
 
2013-04-10 09:01:48 PM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


Because the people who bag sh*t at a CVS are the ones voting them into office.
 
2013-04-10 09:06:41 PM
Here are your choices:

1. None of the religions in public spaces.

2. All of the religions in public spaces.
 
2013-04-10 09:10:34 PM
Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?
 
2013-04-10 09:11:28 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?


At least there's tangible evidence of that.
 
2013-04-10 09:22:34 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


I see Ralphie from "A Christmas Story" finally got that sex-change operation.
 
2013-04-10 09:32:07 PM
dumbimages.net
 
2013-04-10 09:33:26 PM

b0rscht: I WILL EAT YOUR FACE

[i.huffpost.com image 570x238]


www.slantmagazine.com
 
2013-04-10 09:36:31 PM

spongeboob: Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?


And it is based on a group requiring male members to lop off part of their .. well... member.
 
2013-04-10 09:38:40 PM

ThunderPelvis: b0rscht: I WILL EAT YOUR FACE

[i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

[www.slantmagazine.com image 602x330]


First thing I thought of.
 
2013-04-10 09:44:16 PM

RedPhoenix122: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

At least there's tangible evidence of that.


"All hail Terry, keeper of fire codes and master of ADA compliance!"
 
2013-04-10 09:45:29 PM
bibe2008.org

Apparently going to the dentist is also terrorism.
 
2013-04-10 10:13:11 PM
Thank God for Patriots like her, defending our Freedom of  Religion Christianity.
 
2013-04-10 10:58:17 PM
lh5.googleusercontent.com
lh3.googleusercontent.com
lh6.googleusercontent.com
In fairness, we might want to teach a bit more than just Christianity. We all aren't Christians out here. And as a Buddhist, I don't want my faith emblazoned on pubic walls, but then again, my daughter isn't Christian, and I don't exactly want her being exposed to ONLY Christian ideas and ideals...
 
2013-04-10 11:24:42 PM

hubiestubert: [lh5.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
In fairness, we might want to teach a bit more than just Christianity. We all aren't Christians out here. And as a Buddhist, I don't want my faith emblazoned on pubic walls, but then again, my daughter isn't Christian, and I don't exactly want her being exposed to ONLY Christian ideas and ideals...


I don't think too many people want their religious faiths emblazoned on pubic walls either.
 
2013-04-10 11:28:57 PM

King Something: hubiestubert: [lh5.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]
In fairness, we might want to teach a bit more than just Christianity. We all aren't Christians out here. And as a Buddhist, I don't want my faith emblazoned on pubic walls, but then again, my daughter isn't Christian, and I don't exactly want her being exposed to ONLY Christian ideas and ideals...

I don't think too many people want their religious faiths emblazoned on pubic walls either.


Gottverdammit Auto-Correct!
 
2013-04-10 11:47:18 PM
www.tdpri.com

"We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"

 
2013-04-10 11:49:31 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?


Why would you assume any particular atheist would want a well-functioning place of meeting for the North Carolina legislature?
 
2013-04-11 12:02:36 AM
This is a state that used to allow a12 year old  girl to get  married iffn she was pregnant.
Really.
 
2013-04-11 12:03:07 AM
I've heard it argued (seriously) that Islam is not covered under the First Amendment religious protections because it is not a religion. It is a militaristic cult.
 
2013-04-11 12:07:10 AM

propasaurus: I've heard it argued (seriously) that Islam is not covered under the First Amendment religious protections because it is not a religion. It is a militaristic cult.


And of course the very same argument was used against Catholicism and Mormonism in the 19th and 20th centuries. Various anti-Jewish and even anti-Yoga/Hindu versions of this exist as well in American discourse, believe it or not. Of course Protestantism is somehow neither "militaristic" nor a "cult" under these "definitions." Fancy that.
 
2013-04-11 12:20:19 AM
Not gonna lie. I've sat here for 10 minutes trying to think up something amusing to say. It's been a long day and I'm tired. So this is just a bookmark.
 
2013-04-11 12:22:01 AM

spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.

i.imgur.com
Roman Catholics strangling and roasting Dutch Mennonites in 1554.


i.imgur.com

French Protestants liberating the entrails of Catholics in 1607.


Yeah....we've seen that movie before and *Spoiler Alert*: It doesn't end well.
 
2013-04-11 12:23:35 AM

Somacandra: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

Why would you assume any particular atheist would want a well-functioning place of meeting for the North Carolina legislature?


While I'd like to reduce the need for prisons, I don't expect it will ever be possible to eliminate them completely.
 
2013-04-11 12:27:53 AM
i.huffpost.com


i93.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-11 01:45:50 AM
I especially like the part where, in a very few sentences she says "We just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom or it will be whisked away from us." seconds after she said that allowing Muslim prayer is supporting terrorism. Have legislators always been this ignorant, or is it just because of the Internet that we hear about it?
 
2013-04-11 02:19:09 AM
It's not just her rock-stupid ignorance of the Constitution and the concept of Freedom of Religion.
It's not just her cognitive dissonance that, properly harvested, could lower electricity prices to one cent per kilowatt decade.
It's that she apparently looked at a photo of Calista Gingrich and thought "Style Icon to Emulate" instead of "AIIEEEE! IT HUNGERS FOR SOULS"
 
2013-04-11 02:25:41 AM
The fact that this woman is an elected official and has any sort of power or influence at all is incredibly disturbing.
 
2013-04-11 02:30:20 AM

This About That: Have legislators always been this ignorant, or is it just because of the Internet that we hear about it?


I think people have always had the potential to be this ignorant, but the internet (and cable news networks) make it sooo easy. Used to be if you wanted to keep up with current events, you couldn't help but be exposed to outside views and different ideas and the like. Nowadays all this gal has to do is turn on Fox News, bring up FreeRepublic, and relax in her nice closed loop of derp. Because who likes to hear evidence that their existing ideas might be wrong?

/Perhaps a mod could baleet my html fail?
 
2013-04-11 04:44:56 AM
The bill, which was drafted by state Reps. Carl Ford (R-China Grove)

The people of the town are strange
And they're proud of where they came.
 
2013-04-11 06:20:17 AM

miss diminutive: The fact that this woman is an elected official and has any sort of power or influence at all is incredibly disturbing.


You've obviously never visited the South.
 
2013-04-11 06:21:40 AM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


This.

/South Carolinian
 
2013-04-11 06:22:27 AM
Isn't NASCAR a religion?
 
2013-04-11 06:30:19 AM
NC is now literally half Yankee yuppie scum transplants who go there to get away from things like having to pay workers a decent wage.
 
2013-04-11 06:31:48 AM
yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like
 
2013-04-11 06:38:01 AM
is she just a regular republican idiot or tea party republican idiot?
 
2013-04-11 06:42:34 AM
TFA
The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." Though Warren, one of the bill's authors, told HuffPost Live that the measure was not seeking to create a state religion, the drafted legislation would clearly allow for such an action.

upload.wikimedia.org
Disagrees
 
2013-04-11 06:42:59 AM
GOPmerica: Where "Freedom of Religion" really only means "freedom to be fundamentalist and jesusy" along with "Freedom for jesusy people to persecute non jesusy people"

Sorry assholes, your stone aged semitic sky worship can die in a farking fire.
 
2013-04-11 06:43:06 AM
Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?
 
2013-04-11 06:43:26 AM
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

See that line, fellow Christians? The United States is not God's Kingdom on Earth. We can't run it like it is because we will invariably screw it up.

Just stop trying to legislate people into conversion, it has the opposite effect.
 
2013-04-11 06:47:28 AM
One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"
 
2013-04-11 06:47:35 AM
I'd hope that someone at least pointed out to her the glaring contradictions.
 
2013-04-11 06:49:24 AM

Somacandra: "We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"


But Methodists don't count because they're a little too accepting of the gays.
 
2013-04-11 06:50:16 AM

LograyX: Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

See that line, fellow Christians? The United States is not God's Kingdom on Earth. We can't run it like it is because we will invariably screw it up.

Just stop trying to legislate people into conversion, it has the opposite effect.


I disagree, keep trying to legislate people into conversion, it has the opposite effect.
 
2013-04-11 06:52:14 AM

natas6.0: yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like


You don't seem to like the First amendment, so why don't you take your own advice and 'walk the fark out'?
 
2013-04-11 06:53:08 AM

Karac: One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"


OMG....that is simply an awesome idea!
 
2013-04-11 06:54:38 AM

lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?


Only in scifiville:
media.sfx.co.uk


http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/09/Earth-Strike_305.jpg
 
2013-04-11 06:55:29 AM

abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.


You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.
 
2013-04-11 06:56:46 AM

spongeboob: Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?


Dude, I don't think the average American would even vote for an atheist.
 
182
2013-04-11 06:57:43 AM
if you guys only knew the area she represented, you'd understand.
 
2013-04-11 06:58:33 AM
You know which country acknowledges Christian religion in their constitutional preamble?
You know which country opts-in its citizen into a Christian church tax via the federal income tax process?
You know which country offers 1h minimum in religion class per week in public schools?


Now ask yourself, which country has more overzealous Christians than the country in the questions above?
 
2013-04-11 07:00:50 AM

AdolfOliverPanties: And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


The mix of yellow and white suggests her full set is partially prosthetic.
 
2013-04-11 07:02:21 AM

AdolfOliverPanties: [i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


I'm just not sure they're HER teeth.

/paging Mr. Dollarhyde
 
2013-04-11 07:03:14 AM
LordJiro
don't get all whiny on me there, el jay
 they just want the freedom to do their particular kooky dance
If you need another look at what my opinion was
feel free to reread everything after 'I dislike'
or..take yer own advice
b-b-but the amendments!
 
2013-04-11 07:03:31 AM

King Something: I don't think too many people want their religious faiths emblazoned on pubic walls either.


Given that the purpose of the whole thing is to bilk money and power out of the common clay, and let them enforce peasant morality on their neighbors, I think any kind of dick/jesus/asshole art is entirely appropriate.
 
2013-04-11 07:04:29 AM

hinten: You know which country acknowledges Christian religion in their constitutional preamble?
You know which country opts-in its citizen into a Christian church tax via the federal income tax process?
You know which country offers 1h minimum in religion class per week in public schools?


Now ask yourself, which country has more overzealous Christians than the country in the questions above?


I was told there would be no math religion.
 
2013-04-11 07:05:35 AM

Somacandra: spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.

Roman Catholics strangling and roasting Dutch Mennonites in 1554.
French Protestants liberating the entrails of Catholics in 1607.
Yeah....we've seen that movie before and *Spoiler Alert*: It doesn't end well.


Now I see where "Stick a fork in him, he's done" comes from.
 
2013-04-11 07:07:02 AM

Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.


This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.
 
2013-04-11 07:09:42 AM
She's still not as vile as representative Virginia Foxx.
 
2013-04-11 07:10:04 AM
Again, the ignorance and hypocrisy is astounding...

Between this, Rand Paul's condescending speech at Howard, and that yahoo in Kansas using "n*gger-rigging" at a meeting, the GOP sure is making good on its rhetoric to be more inclusive of minorities, eh?
 
2013-04-11 07:10:21 AM

spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.


Just like not collecting stamps is a hobbie.
 
2013-04-11 07:10:54 AM

berylman: She's still not as vile as representative Virginia Foxx.


Oh come on! That's a porn star, not an elected official.
 
2013-04-11 07:11:55 AM

natas6.0: yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like


We don't have to accommodate all the things. Were not supposed to accommodate ANY of them. It's not impotent rage, it's the constitution.
 
2013-04-11 07:12:17 AM

neongoats: GOPmerica: Where "Freedom of Religion" really only means "freedom to be fundamentalist and jesusy" along with "Freedom for jesusy people to persecute non jesusy people"


And, of course, by "jesusy" they really mean "bearing absolutely no resemblance to Jesus Christ or anything he ever stood for; in fact, almost completely the exact opposite!"...

/If only more so-called Christians actually followed the teachings of Jesus, we'd all be a whole lot better off...
 
2013-04-11 07:12:21 AM

lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?


I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)
 
2013-04-11 07:12:26 AM
AdolfOliverPanties:
i.huffpost.com
And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.



I find that picture, placed together with your username (and the way it sounds), to be a truly terrifying thing.
 
2013-04-11 07:12:34 AM

neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.


Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.
 
2013-04-11 07:12:57 AM

neongoats: This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion



It's like saying bald is a hair style....


Love that one.
 
2013-04-11 07:13:02 AM
these gems should be put on large well made plaques bolted to the building where the idiot works. protected from the weather and well lit at night. when buildings across America start to sag from the weight of the plaques featuring our fearless leaders stupidity people will catch on that we have to make major changes to the system that allows the mentally deficient to hold public offices.

neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.


I'll pray for you.
 
2013-04-11 07:13:44 AM
Outreach!
 
2013-04-11 07:14:06 AM

catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


It's the latest tack a number of states are trying to push, that the amendments of the Constitution don't apply to the states themselves.
 
2013-04-11 07:14:14 AM

RobSeace: neongoats: GOPmerica: Where "Freedom of Religion" really only means "freedom to be fundamentalist and jesusy" along with "Freedom for jesusy people to persecute non jesusy people"

And, of course, by "jesusy" they really mean "bearing absolutely no resemblance to Jesus Christ or anything he ever stood for; in fact, almost completely the exact opposite!"...

/If only more so-called Christians actually followed the teachings of Jesus, we'd all be a whole lot better off...


Right. Really all you have to do in any situation is think about what the Dark Lord Sauron would do, and you instantly know what the GOP/fundy brigades feel about it.
 
2013-04-11 07:14:50 AM

lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.


And you claim this, why?
 
2013-04-11 07:15:51 AM
I have it on good authority that the baby Jesus was a hook-nosed Arab.
 
2013-04-11 07:16:29 AM

spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.

The clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly.

- Thomas Jefferson
 
2013-04-11 07:16:45 AM

natas6.0: LordJiro
don't get all whiny on me there, el jay
 they just want the freedom to do their particular kooky dance
If you need another look at what my opinion was
feel free to reread everything after 'I dislike'
or..take yer own advice
b-b-but the amendments!


i18.photobucket.com

The Subjugation of a Ghost

A young wife fell sick and was about to die. "I love you so much," she told her husband, "I do not want to leave you. Do not go from me to any other woman. If you do, I will return as a ghost and cause you endless trouble."
Soon the wife passed away. The husband respected her last wish for the first three months, but then he met another woman and fell in love with her. They became engaged to be married.
Immediately after the engagement a ghost appeared every night to the man, blaming him for not keeping his promise. The ghost was clever too. She told him exactly what had transpired between himself and his new sweetheart. Whenever he gave his fiancee a present, the ghost would describe it in detail. She would even repeat conversations, and it so annoyed the amn that he could not sleep. Someone advised him to take his problem to a Zen master who lived close to the village. At length, in despair, the poor man went to him for help.
"Your former wife became a ghost and knows everything you do, " commented the master. "Whatever you do or say, whatever you give your beloved, she knows. She must be a very wise ghost. Really you should admire such a ghost. The next time she appears, bargain with her. Tell her that she knows so much you can hide nothing from her, and that if she will answer you one question, you promise to break your engagement and remain single."
"What is the question I must ask her?" inquired the man.
The master replied: "Take a large handful of soy beans and ask her exactly how many beans you hold in your hand. If she cannot tell you, you will know that she is only a figment of your imagination and will trouble you no longer."
The next night, when the ghost appeared the man flattered her and told her that she knew everything.
"Indeed," replied the ghost, "and I know you went to see that Zen master today."
"And since you know so much," demanded the man, "tell me how many beans I hold in this hand!"
There was no longer any ghost to answer the question.
 
2013-04-11 07:18:07 AM

lewismarktwo: NC is now literally half Yankee yuppie scum transplants who go there to get away from things like having to pay workers a decent wage.


"My taxes are so low!! Why is my child's school so shiatty?"

They're not very good at putting two and two together, either.
 
2013-04-11 07:19:20 AM

keylock71: neongoats: This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion

It's like saying bald is a hair style....

Love that one.


Um, bald is a hair style. Ask Yul Brynner or Telly Savalas.
 
2013-04-11 07:19:44 AM

lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.


Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".
 
2013-04-11 07:20:46 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Outreach!


That's the hilarious part for me... These farking ass-backwards morons in the GOP just can't help themselves.

"Why won't you terrorist-loving, lazy, shiftless, criminals, who want nothing but handouts and drugs vote for Republicans?"

"...And what's up with these wetbacks? Why won't they support us? Just because we want to deport you en masse and shoot you doesn't mean you can't vote for us!"

"Don't even get me started on the queers wanting 'special ' rights... Those deviants should be flocking to the GOP."


The GOP doesn't get it, and they never will.
 
2013-04-11 07:21:30 AM

neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".


No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.
 
2013-04-11 07:22:04 AM

Misch: spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.

The clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly. - Thomas Jefferson


So the Founding Fathers did support abortion!
 
2013-04-11 07:22:35 AM
What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?
 
2013-04-11 07:23:20 AM

kronicfeld: spongeboob: I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion. I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Is that like "admitting" that rain falls up?


pfft... I would never admit to that. Everyone knows that rain falls sideways!
 
2013-04-11 07:23:25 AM

digistil: miss diminutive: The fact that this woman is an elected official and has any sort of power or influence at all is incredibly disturbing.

You've obviously never visited the South.


I've passed through several times, never long enough to get a good look at the electoral process.

Based on what I keep reading, it appears they've adopted the "whoever picks the smallest pickle from the jar" method of selection.
 
2013-04-11 07:23:39 AM

Spanky_McFarksalot: is she just a regular republican idiot or tea party republican idiot?


LOL it's cute that you think there's a difference.
 
2013-04-11 07:24:59 AM

lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief.


Um, no it isn't.
 
2013-04-11 07:25:15 AM

Joce678: Um, bald is a hair style. Ask Yul Brynner or Telly Savalas.


I'm just going to give you a few minutes to think about what you just posted...
 
2013-04-11 07:29:23 AM

jso2897: The Subjugation of a Ghost


That's the first time I've ever seen this little story. Thanks for that. :)
 
2013-04-11 07:30:29 AM

Joce678: What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?


I'm trying to think of a religion that embodies the disparate concepts of "detached from humanity", "armchair warrior", "greed", "hate", "hypocrite", "ignorant", and "convinced of their own infallibility", but amazingly, the Christians created for themselves something unique and special in human history.

Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul put together might equate to U.S. fundamentalists. We just need Cyric to slay jesus and take over his portfolio.
 
2013-04-11 07:32:37 AM
Presnell represents Burnsville, a small, community way up in the mountains of WNC. The whole county is 96.9% white according to the latest census information. I doubt many residents of Yancey County have even seen a Muslim, much less spoken with one.

But basically, Presnell represents these types of backwoods bigoted rednecks quite well.
 
2013-04-11 07:34:15 AM

Lackofname: spongeboob: Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?

Dude, I don't think the average American would even vote for an atheist.


I think the American populace has voted plenty of atheists into office. Just as we've voted into office plenty of gay Republican senators.
 
2013-04-11 07:34:24 AM

b0rscht: I WILL EAT YOUR FACE

[i.huffpost.com image 570x238]


i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-11 07:37:04 AM

catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Since a blah, muslin, Democratic (excuse me, demonrat) president is in charge they feel free to ignore such conditions.
 
2013-04-11 07:38:06 AM

hinten: You know which country acknowledges Christian religion in their constitutional preamble?
You know which country opts-in its citizen into a Christian church tax via the federal income tax process?
You know which country offers 1h minimum in religion class per week in public schools?


Now ask yourself, which country has more overzealous Christians than the country in the questions above?


Huh? The US has more Jews than Israel. It's a big country. Lots of people.
 
2013-04-11 07:38:21 AM
Welp, at least he's not a hypocrite.
 
2013-04-11 07:39:00 AM
Or she even.
 
2013-04-11 07:40:50 AM

Alphax: And you claim this, why?


Because of the roving gangs of atheists who bust into churches during services, tear the mike out of the pastor's hands and launch into a Henry Rollins-esque diatribe until everyone in the building stops believing in Jesus. They're all over the place, these atheists, forcing other people to listen to them.
 
2013-04-11 07:41:25 AM

Joce678: What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?


Lucifer?
 
2013-04-11 07:42:56 AM

jso2897: neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".

No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.


Smart atheists know when someone is baiting them, but I forgive you, just like Jesus Christ will forgive your sins if you accept him into your heart.
 
2013-04-11 07:42:58 AM

mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)



I always liked that, for the majority of Japan, their relationship to religion is basically "eh, it's where ritual comes from" and they do the Shinto rituals for birth (and luck) and the Christian ones for marriage and the Buddhist ones for death, but never really think of it past "that thing you do for X event"
 
2013-04-11 07:45:15 AM
The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.
 
2013-04-11 07:45:24 AM

catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


And, oh, might just be written into OUR FARKING STATE CONSTITUTION, YOU THEOCRATIC NEOCONFEDERATE SHIATWADS!!!

Sec. 5.  Allegiance to the United States.

Every citizen of this State owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States, and no law or ordinance of the State in contravention or subversion thereof can have any binding force.


Oh, it turns out this asshole is from Burnsville - right across the Pisgah Forest from Billy Graham's complex.  Imagine my surprise.

Now, who was it in a thread last week that was trying to say Asheville was super-liberal like Chapel Hill?

/I didn't vote for a single damn R in November, can't blame me
 
2013-04-11 07:47:44 AM

TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.


I'm trying to parse this in a way that makes sense, and not finding a way.
 
2013-04-11 07:48:16 AM

TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.


And the only thing more annoying than either of them are people who mistake "you can't systematically use government to force your religion on people" as "atheists forcing their beliefs on poor innocent jesusy folks"

Congrats.
 
2013-04-11 07:49:30 AM

spyderqueen: mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)


I always liked that, for the majority of Japan, their relationship to religion is basically "eh, it's where ritual comes from" and they do the Shinto rituals for birth (and luck) and the Christian ones for marriage and the Buddhist ones for death, but never really think of it past "that thing you do for X event"


A lot of this comes from American post-war efforts to demilitarize Shinto, which had been heavily appropriated for politico-military use.  Take a look at the 1945 'Directive for the Disestablishment of State Shinto"; it was the roadmap for removing religion as an instrument of nationalism in Japan.
 
2013-04-11 07:50:02 AM

cman: AdolfOliverPanties: [i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.

She looks English

iats not just the teeth that gave her away. It is her facial features


Can I just threadshiat for a second

I am SO bored of the "English have bad teeth" stereotype .. at leat we farking have teeth and not a row of brilliantine gravestones that look completely farking creepy.

You Yanks are so obsessed with manufactured beauty.. Hair, tits, teeth everything that can be man made are the bits you look at.. for god's sake we wouldn't even have plastic surgery if it wasn't for your insane idea that nature can be improved upon.. that a wrinkle is an abomination .. your porn sucks because of all this which is obviously a shame.

And don't get me started on the "English are emotionally underdeveloped like farking Hugh Grant!" .. Coming from a Country that pumps out films with people being shot in the face but woooahh nelly! if someone gets their tits out.

In conclusion.. You all spend stupid money making your teeth look like that AND THEN THINK IT'S NORMAL... Jesus, I bet it's the same logic that makes everyone put jackets on their dogs these days!
 
2013-04-11 07:50:20 AM

UNC_Samurai: A lot of this comes from American post-war efforts to demilitarize Shinto, which had been heavily appropriated for politico-military use.  Take a look at the 1945 'Directive for the Disestablishment of State Shinto"; it was the roadmap for removing religion as an instrument of nationalism in Japan.


It'd be nice if we could do that here.
 
2013-04-11 07:50:44 AM

neongoats: TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.

And the only thing more annoying than either of them are people who mistake "you can't systematically use government to force your religion on people" as "atheists forcing their beliefs on poor innocent jesusy folks"

Congrats.


I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's Homobortion Pot-n-Commie Jizzporium.
 
2013-04-11 07:50:53 AM

lewismarktwo: jso2897: neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".

No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.

Smart atheists know when someone is baiting them, but I forgive you, just like Jesus Christ will forgive your sins if you accept him into your heart.


Well, I'm no master baiter, that's for sure. But the last I heard from Jesus, he told his followers to go practice their religion in private - so I have to assume that anyone who publicly trumpets that they are a "Christian" isn't a very good one.
By the way - your remarks indicate that you think I am an "atheist" (whatever that means) - is there some reason you think that? Or is it just an assumption you make abouit anyone who is amused by the spectacle of so-called "Christians" waving their alleged faith around in public like some flasher waving his dick?
 
2013-04-11 07:51:33 AM
The suggested bill is pretty much the purest example of an unconstitutional law I've ever seen. Other than maybe a law requiring citizens to quarter soldiers in their homes.
 
2013-04-11 07:53:08 AM

Mrfusticle: You Yanks are so obsessed with manufactured beauty.. Hair, tits, teeth everything that can be man made are the bits you look at.. for god's sake we wouldn't even have plastic surgery if it wasn't for your insane idea that nature can be improved upon.. that a wrinkle is an abomination .. your porn sucks because of all this which is obviously a shame.


ecx.images-amazon.com

I was introduced to this book in a History of American Business class; I highly recommend it.  We've been doing this shiat for so long we don't even think about it.
 
2013-04-11 07:54:19 AM
http://igg.me/at/webackmac38/x/2513157

The above link takes you to an Indiegogo fundraiser for my anticipated 2014 campaign seeking election to North Carolina's House of Representatives.  In 2010 the GOP gained a majority in both houses of our state legislature, just in time to gerrymander legislative districts and solidify their position.  Now, as you can see, they're striving to make their ideology our law.

Wherever your views on the political system may lie, I hope you'll agree that no law should be based on someone else's morals.  The type of overreach taking place here undermines faith in our system... and if it can happen here today, it can happen anywhere tomorrow.  So if you're asking yourself "Why should I care?  I don't live in North Carolina," keep in mind that until a very short time ago, this was seen as a solid blue state when it came to state government and elections.  The issues at stake here are all too real, and the time for action - action restoring a practical, pragmatic, forward thinking, common sense approach to government - has come.  It's time for common sense to trump nonsense.

The odds are against me.  My opposition has a huge money advantage, and Republicans outspent Democrats by a 2-to-1+ margin statewide last year.  So anything you could do to help financially would be appreciated.  A contribution would give our effort a tremendous boost, raising the initial funds we'll need to launch a competitive, informative campaign.
 
2013-04-11 07:54:29 AM
Go through this thread.

Replace "atheist" with "christian" and "christian" with "muslim" and suddenly it looks like your local teaparty meeting.


B b but muh dont like christians and tryin' to feel edgy!
Congrats turd nuggets youve joined the very same club of the people you profess to hate.
 
2013-04-11 07:54:30 AM
Mrfusticle:In conclusion.. You all spend stupid money making your teeth look like that AND THEN THINK IT'S NORMAL... Jesus, I bet it's the same logic that makes everyone put jackets on their dogs these days!

I live in South Carolina, but frequently work in NC.  I can honesty tell you that there are large parts of that state which do not, in point of fact, spend money on their tooth.
 
2013-04-11 07:55:04 AM
Mrfusticle:  .. your porn sucks because of all this which is obviously a shame.

In conclusion.. You all spend stupid money making your teeth look like that AND THEN THINK IT'S NORMAL... Jesus, I bet it's the same logic that makes everyone put jackets on their dogs these days!


Yeah I agree, I do not enjoy porn that has boobies that are more like balloonies.
 
2013-04-11 07:55:32 AM

Mrfusticle: I am SO bored of the "English have bad teeth" stereotype .. at leat we farking have teeth and not a row of brilliantine gravestones that look completely farking creepy.

You Yanks are so obsessed with manufactured beauty..


And, I'm so bored of people confusing insecurity with insight.
 
2013-04-11 07:55:40 AM
My religion deserves respect and reverence

Your religion is a vile abomination


/I can't see any problems with that
//Nope, seems fairly straightforward
 
2013-04-11 07:55:52 AM

UNC_Samurai: neongoats: TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.

And the only thing more annoying than either of them are people who mistake "you can't systematically use government to force your religion on people" as "atheists forcing their beliefs on poor innocent jesusy folks"

Congrats.

I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's Homobortion Pot-n-Commie Jizzporium.


That sounds fun, will there be a Festivus pole there?
 
2013-04-11 07:56:10 AM

TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.


By definition, wouldn't both be exactly, identically as annoying, and for the exact, same reason?
That's always been my take on it.
 
2013-04-11 07:57:07 AM

TheGregiss: Go through this thread.

Replace "atheist" with "christian" and "christian" with "muslim" and suddenly it looks like your local teaparty meeting.


B b but muh dont like christians and tryin' to feel edgy!
Congrats turd nuggets youve joined the very same club of the people you profess to hate.


I guess it looks like that, if you understand nothing.
 
2013-04-11 07:57:16 AM
Back on subject:

She is hot stuff!
i.huffpost.com

\Yes, my favourite porn is Necrophillic zoo pissing parties, what of it?
 
2013-04-11 07:58:32 AM

spyderqueen: I always liked that, for the majority of Japan, their relationship to religion is basically "eh, it's where ritual comes from" and they do the Shinto rituals for birth (and luck) and the Christian ones for marriage and the Buddhist ones for death, but never really think of it past "that thing you do for X event"


Eh. Most westerners who self identify as religious are only in it for the ritual as well, hell I'd go so far as to say most priests, deacons, ministers etc are in it for the ritual rather than a actual belief in a personal god. The thing is they like and even feel that they need the ritual in their life and in order to get it they need to keep up the pretense that they believe in magic.
 
2013-04-11 07:59:13 AM

jso2897: lewismarktwo: jso2897: neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".

No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.

Smart atheists know when someone is baiting them, but I forgive you, just like Jesus Christ will forgive your sins if you accept him into your heart.

Well, I'm no master baiter, that's for sure. But the last I heard from Jesus, he told his followers to go practice their religion in private - so I have to assume that anyone who publicly trumpets that they are a "Christian" isn't a very good one.
By the way - your remarks indicate that you think I am an "atheist" (whatever that means) - is there some reason you think that? Or is it just an assumption you make abouit anyone who is amused by the spectacle of so-called "Christians" waving their alleged faith around in public like some flasher waving his dick?


So you're not smarter than me?
 
2013-04-11 07:59:56 AM
Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.
 
2013-04-11 08:00:50 AM

eraser8: Mrfusticle: I am SO bored of the "English have bad teeth" stereotype .. at leat we farking have teeth and not a row of brilliantine gravestones that look completely farking creepy.

You Yanks are so obsessed with manufactured beauty..

And, I'm so bored of people confusing insecurity with insight.


That's funny because I'm bored of po-faced internetlectuals who wouldn't know a joke if it spanked their ample behinds
 
2013-04-11 08:01:18 AM
I will once again point out that this is all smoke and mirrors - they're tossing some absolutely inane ideas out there so the two voting bills won't look bad.

One of the voting bills actually hits more than just dems hard, though - they want to make it so that if your college kid votes where his college is, you can't claim him as a dependant for tax purposes.

The other one is just the old voting ID one, which plenty of people have pointed out is a solution in search of a problem (voting occurring less often than people getting hit by lightning and all)
 
2013-04-11 08:02:31 AM

Mrfusticle: eraser8: Mrfusticle: I am SO bored of the "English have bad teeth" stereotype .. at leat we farking have teeth and not a row of brilliantine gravestones that look completely farking creepy.

You Yanks are so obsessed with manufactured beauty..

And, I'm so bored of people confusing insecurity with insight.

That's funny because I'm bored of po-faced internetlectuals who wouldn't know a joke if it spanked their ample behinds


I don't care.
 
2013-04-11 08:03:21 AM

mactheknife: http://igg.me/at/webackmac38/x/2513157

The above link takes you to an Indiegogo fundraiser for my anticipated 2014 campaign seeking election to North Carolina's House of Representatives.  In 2010 the GOP gained a majority in both houses of our state legislature, just in time to gerrymander legislative districts and solidify their position.  Now, as you can see, they're striving to make their ideology our law.

Wherever your views on the political system may lie, I hope you'll agree that no law should be based on someone else's morals.  The type of overreach taking place here undermines faith in our system... and if it can happen here today, it can happen anywhere tomorrow.  So if you're asking yourself "Why should I care?  I don't live in North Carolina," keep in mind that until a very short time ago, this was seen as a solid blue state when it came to state government and elections.  The issues at stake here are all too real, and the time for action - action restoring a practical, pragmatic, forward thinking, common sense approach to government - has come.  It's time for common sense to trump nonsense.

The odds are against me.  My opposition has a huge money advantage, and Republicans outspent Democrats by a 2-to-1+ margin statewide last year.  So anything you could do to help financially would be appreciated.  A contribution would give our effort a tremendous boost, raising the initial funds we'll need to launch a competitive, informative campaign.


I support the majority of your platform, but respectfully disagree about the gasoline tax.  Our highway maintenance budget is such that I don't believe we can afford a revenue decrease in the near future.  I-95 is really bad in some places, and parts of I-40 are the same way.  I would say it might have been possible had Easley not pillaged the Highway Fund, but we are all going to be paying for his mistakes for years to come.

neongoats: UNC_Samurai: neongoats: TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.

And the only thing more annoying than either of them are people who mistake "you can't systematically use government to force your religion on people" as "atheists forcing their beliefs on poor innocent jesusy folks"

Congrats.

I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's Homobortion Pot-n-Commie Jizzporium.

That sounds fun, will there be a Festivus pole there?


Oddly enough, yes - the mod that helps run the Farktography contests has a Festivus pole.  Optimized for strength-to-weight ratio and everything.
 
2013-04-11 08:03:33 AM
I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .
 
2013-04-11 08:04:59 AM

lewismarktwo: jso2897: lewismarktwo: jso2897: neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".

No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.

Smart atheists know when someone is baiting them, but I forgive you, just like Jesus Christ will forgive your sins if you accept him into your heart.

Well, I'm no master baiter, that's for sure. But the last I heard from Jesus, he told his followers to go practice their religion in private - so I have to assume that anyone who publicly trumpets that they are a "Christian" isn't a very good one.
By the way - your remarks indicate that you think I am an "atheist" (whatever that means) - is there some reason you think that? Or is it just an assumption you make abouit anyone who is amused by the spectacle of so-called "Christians" waving their alleged faith around in public like some flasher waving his dick?

So you're not smarter than me?


I try to assume that everybody else is smarter than I am - it's safer that way. No one has ever screwed up by overestimating the intelligence of a potential competitor.
Anyway - does it really matter? All we are really talking about here is a silly woman who thinks it's acceptable to try to set up an official state religion - do you have a position on this, or did you simply come into the thread to inform the rest of us that we are great big poopy-heads? Frankly, I'm already well aware that I am a great big poopy-head, and don't care.
 
2013-04-11 08:05:12 AM

Langdon_777: Joce678: What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?

Lucifer?


If you put "God" on a currency, surely it is natural to assume the God referred to is Mammon?
 
2013-04-11 08:05:36 AM

Lorelle: Nadie_AZ: If the Republican Party hopes to reach out to minority groups, it must clearly and forcefully repudiate such bigoted comments by its representatives," the group's National Legislative Director Corey Saylor said in a statement.

I'm just not seeing this happen.

It won't, mainly because bigotry is one of the ISLAMS core values.


FTFY
 
2013-04-11 08:05:57 AM

zarberg: I will once again point out that this is all smoke and mirrors - they're tossing some absolutely inane ideas out there so the two voting bills won't look bad.

One of the voting bills actually hits more than just dems hard, though - they want to make it so that if your college kid votes where his college is, you can't claim him as a dependant for tax purposes.

The other one is just the old voting ID one, which plenty of people have pointed out is a solution in search of a problem (voting occurring less often than people getting hit by lightning and all)


What frightens me is, Howard Manning isn't going to be around forever; and when the times comes that he leaves his office, we're not guaranteed to have a Superior Court that will shoot down stupidity when someone inevitably sues over this.
 
2013-04-11 08:07:29 AM
A democracy wherein you are given a choice between an educated authoritarian and an uneducated authoritarian is not a democracy.

I keep seeing people saying really stupid things, and most of them are elected Republicans. It's enough to destroy one's confidence in democratic governance.
 
2013-04-11 08:07:29 AM

vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.


Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.
 
2013-04-11 08:07:58 AM

The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .


And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.
 
2013-04-11 08:08:09 AM

neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.


Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.

Then they start showing as much hatred and intolerance of others as many religions (like your "Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks" bit.

Then you start adding in ceremonies and rites, like unbaptism: Bill Maher performing an unbaptism

Then you start having church services and congregations of an Atheist Church: Sunday Assembly

Then you start writing books about how you're the only correct belief system and that everyone else is deluded and mentally ill and are mentally inferior to your belief system: The God Delusion

They even have had organized militant members, devoted to extermination of the worshipers of other beliefs: League of Militant Atheists

They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:
www.religioustolerance.orgwww.religioustolerance.orgtuftsfreethought.orgecx.images-amazon.com

Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.  You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

If it sounds like a religion, talks like a religion, and acts like a religion, it's a religion.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion
 
2013-04-11 08:08:37 AM

Gunslinger013: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.
Just like not collecting stamps is a hobbit.



FTFY
 
2013-04-11 08:09:09 AM

xria: Langdon_777: Joce678: What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?

Lucifer?

If you put "God" on a currency, surely it is natural to assume the God referred to is Mammon?


Please.

The vast majority of conservatives and Republicans have been worshipping Mammon for years.  Blatantly, too:

wonkette.com

/sadly, all our attempts at regulation are like the Ruby Knife; we have no way of stopping the Mammon machine
 
2013-04-11 08:10:24 AM

xria: Langdon_777: Joce678: What do we expect from a government who recently adopted "In God we trust" as a motto?

Is anybody under any illusion about which deity they were thinking of when they adopted that?

Lucifer?

If you put "God" on a currency, surely it is natural to assume the God referred to is Mammon?


I stand correct. Lucifer always stood for freedom from authoritarian oppression.
 
2013-04-11 08:11:00 AM
*corrected :p

Damn drunk farking.
 
2013-04-11 08:11:14 AM

TheGregiss: Go through this thread.

Replace "atheist" with "christian" and "christian" with "muslim" and suddenly it looks like your local teaparty meeting.


B b but muh dont like christians and tryin' to feel edgy!
Congrats turd nuggets youve joined the very same club of the people you profess to hate.


Are you literally retarded, or just trolling?
 
2013-04-11 08:11:24 AM
So few people understand what freedom of religion really means
 
2013-04-11 08:11:34 AM

Egoy3k: spyderqueen: I always liked that, for the majority of Japan, their relationship to religion is basically "eh, it's where ritual comes from" and they do the Shinto rituals for birth (and luck) and the Christian ones for marriage and the Buddhist ones for death, but never really think of it past "that thing you do for X event"

Eh. Most westerners who self identify as religious are only in it for the ritual as well, hell I'd go so far as to say most priests, deacons, ministers etc are in it for the ritual rather than a actual belief in a personal god. The thing is they like and even feel that they need the ritual in their life and in order to get it they need to keep up the pretense that they believe in magic.



But even a lot of those Easter and Christmas Christians get bent out of shape when a politician says "Oh noes! We're being oppressed."  There's a lot less of that in Japan, where Shinto HAD been opressed.
 
2013-04-11 08:11:45 AM

Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.

Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.



a·the·ismnoun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no GodI must have missed the definition where it says it's some sort of club
 
2013-04-11 08:12:24 AM

Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.


I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.
 
2013-04-11 08:12:45 AM
Balls.. that what some html fail
 
2013-04-11 08:14:38 AM

Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.


Some Farker once said that atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
 
2013-04-11 08:14:58 AM

Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.


I don't engage in any of this and I'm an atheist.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Evidence like a comedian performing an "unbaptism".
 
2013-04-11 08:15:03 AM

Silverstaff: Then you start writing books about how you're the only correct belief system and that everyone else is deluded and mentally ill and are mentally inferior to your belief system: The God Delusion


Either you haven't read the God Delusion or you didn't comprehend it.
 
2013-04-11 08:15:52 AM
A bit surprising that everyone seems to be swallowing the story as written.  Did no one else notice the general lack of quality / giant slant on the page's linked  articles?
 
2013-04-11 08:16:12 AM

Mrfusticle: Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.

Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.


a·the·ismnoun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no GodI must have missed the definition where it says it's some sort of club


Being a former church goer I can safely say youre having a collective circle jerk about your beliefs.

which is essentially a religious gathering. Congrats guys, when do we pass the offering plate and have the potluck?
 
2013-04-11 08:16:14 AM

Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion


2/10

Too wordy. You need to trim it down to, at most, two or three snappy sentences. See letrole's work for reference.
 
2013-04-11 08:16:22 AM

Joe Blowme: Lorelle: Nadie_AZ: If the Republican Party hopes to reach out to minority groups, it must clearly and forcefully repudiate such bigoted comments by its representatives," the group's National Legislative Director Corey Saylor said in a statement.

I'm just not seeing this happen.

It won't, mainly because bigotry is one of the  ISLAMS core values of every major Abrahamic religion.

FTFY


FTFY
 
2013-04-11 08:16:39 AM

spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-11 08:18:01 AM

Biological Ali: TheGregiss: Go through this thread.

Replace "atheist" with "christian" and "christian" with "muslim" and suddenly it looks like your local teaparty meeting.


B b but muh dont like christians and tryin' to feel edgy!
Congrats turd nuggets youve joined the very same club of the people you profess to hate.

Are you literally retarded, or just trolling?


Pushing a religion into the government is exactly just as bad as someone being a smartass on a message forum.

Actually, no. The message forum guy is a thousand times worse!

Somehow.


Anyway, it is just easier to say that both sides are bad as a way of hiding from real discussion.
 
2013-04-11 08:18:23 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

I don't engage in any of this and I'm an atheist.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Evidence like a comedian performing an "unbaptism".


Well, suppose it is. Are you asking that public officials should get up before a public assembly and affirmatively state that there is no god? Is anybody asking for that?
 
2013-04-11 08:18:44 AM

TheGregiss: Mrfusticle: Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.

Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.


a·the·ismnoun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no GodI must have missed the definition where it says it's some sort of club

Being a former church goer I can safely say youre having a collective circle jerk about your beliefs.

which is essentially a religious gathering. Congrats guys, when do we pass the offering plate and have the potluck?


My point was that it doesn't matter how many examples of anti-theism you dredge up that doesn't make atheism change it's meaning.

/wurdz are hard
 
2013-04-11 08:19:05 AM
i406.photobucket.com

Michele, you ignorant slut
 
2013-04-11 08:19:19 AM

TheGregiss: which is essentially a religious gathering.


Sure, much in the same way that my friend's weekly amateur soccer practice sessions are "essentially a religious gathering".
 
2013-04-11 08:19:27 AM

Gig103: scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?


The short answer: Gerrymandering.

The longer answer: something about democracy, wolves, sheep, bread, and circuses.
 
2013-04-11 08:19:48 AM

Silverstaff: They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:


The Darwin fish was created during the height of the 'teach the controversy' nonsense as a way to show support for science education. It has nothing to do with Atheism. If you think that evolution is an atheist idea then you are dead wrong. It's a scientific fact*.

*Please please please don't be one of those 'It's only a theory' mouth breathers.
 
2013-04-11 08:20:59 AM

Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion


It appears more likely that the belief that atheism is a religion is itself a religion.
 
2013-04-11 08:21:40 AM

spyderqueen: I always liked that, for the majority of Japan, their relationship to religion is basically "eh, it's where ritual comes from" and they do the Shinto rituals for birth (and luck) and the Christian ones for marriage and the Buddhist ones for death, but never really think of it past "that thing you do for X event"


That is pretty much how it is for most people in the UK as far as I can tell - for a lot of people churches are places you do christenings, weddings and funerals in (if they aren't too expensive compared to doing them elsewhere), because it is tradition to do so. The actual breakdown is something like 30% of people are Christian (but most don't attend church regularly), 30% categorize themselves as Christian but also non-religious, and 30% claim no religion (the other ~10% is other religions like Muslims, Sikhs, and so on). Of the latter two groups, most would probably consider going to a church for one of the major Christian rituals as normal, in the same way that Christmas/Easter and so on are celebrated largely areligiously nowadays.
 
2013-04-11 08:21:54 AM

TheGregiss: Go through this thread.

Replace "atheist" with "christian" and "christian" with "muslim" and suddenly it looks like your local teaparty meeting.

Let's try it:


Gig103: Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian Muslim bullshiat?


spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity Islam to be the official state religion.


spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist Christian lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist Christians would have to admit that atheism Christianity is a religion.  I don't think any atheist Christian will admit that.


mamoru: I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist a Christian, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist a Christian. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a ChristianMuslim?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."


Sorry, this just isn't working...

Oh, wait, we've got this gem:

TheGregiss: B b but muh dont like christians muslims and tryin' to feel edgy!
Congrats turd nuggets youve joined the very same club of the people you profess to hate.


Yeah, I kind of get your point... some people are just *ssholes and like to be rude to others.
 
2013-04-11 08:22:14 AM

TheGregiss: Mrfusticle: Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.

Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.


a·the·ismnoun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no GodI must have missed the definition where it says it's some sort of club

Being a former church goer I can safely say youre having a collective circle jerk about your beliefs.

which is essentially a religious gathering. Congrats guys, when do we pass the offering plate and have the potluck?


Ok - granted, for the sake of argument - so which of them are demanding that the government affirmatively state that there is no god? I've never heard anyone ask for that.
 
2013-04-11 08:22:31 AM

jso2897: HotWingConspiracy: Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

I don't engage in any of this and I'm an atheist.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Evidence like a comedian performing an "unbaptism".

Well, suppose it is. Are you asking that public officials should get up before a public assembly and affirmatively state that there is no god? Is anybody asking for that?


I'm not asking anyone for anything.
 
2013-04-11 08:23:39 AM

Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

This cannot be repeated enough. Lack of belief in god(s) isn't a religion. Thats just the HURP!! strawman assholes use to try to justify their obeisance to stone age superstition.

Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks.

Now the intolerant Atheist derp starts.

Okay, you know, I used to think that Atheists weren't religious, that they just didn't care about religion.

Then they start showing as much hatred and intolerance of others as many religions (like your "Take the bone out of your noses, you primitive, savage farks" bit.

Then you start adding in ceremonies and rites, like unbaptism: Bill Maher performing an unbaptism

Then you start having church services and congregations of an Atheist Church: Sunday Assembly

Then you start writing books about how you're the only correct belief system and that everyone else is deluded and mentally ill and are mentally inferior to your belief system: The God Delusion

They even have had organized militant members, devoted to extermination of the worshipers of other beliefs: League of Militant Atheists

They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:
[www.religioustolerance.org image 102x87][www.religioustolerance.org image 91x90][tuftsfreethought.org image 114x99][ecx.images-amazon.com image 98x98]

Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

If it walks like a duck, qu ...


Welcome to America, where I don't have to like your stone age, ignorant, bone in your nose, primitive ass. I just have to let you be a stone aged, ignorant, bone in your nose, primitive ass. Which I'm fine with. The difference is that, unlike the jesusy folks, "fundamentalist atheists" aren't trying to suborn the constitution and institute a state religion.

Call me when your anti-christian christians stop trying to institute a christian tyranny.
 
2013-04-11 08:24:56 AM

ph0rk: Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

It appears more likely that the belief that atheism is a religion is itself a religion.


Why even argue the point? I'm content to allow others to tell themselves whatever story regarding my faith or lack thereof that gives them comfort. It doesn't actually change anything, you know.
 
2013-04-11 08:25:26 AM

jso2897: lewismarktwo: jso2897: lewismarktwo: jso2897: neongoats: lewismarktwo: Sure in theory 'Atheism' is the mere lack of belief, but in practice you get a lot of intolerant assholes forcing their views (which can never be proven, making them a species of belief) on others.

Is this an education system thing, where you think schools teaching science is "atheists forcing their views on others", but teaching jesusy creationism is "freedom".

No. He just wants to cry about people he secretly suspects are smarter than he is.

Smart atheists know when someone is baiting them, but I forgive you, just like Jesus Christ will forgive your sins if you accept him into your heart.

Well, I'm no master baiter, that's for sure. But the last I heard from Jesus, he told his followers to go practice their religion in private - so I have to assume that anyone who publicly trumpets that they are a "Christian" isn't a very good one.
By the way - your remarks indicate that you think I am an "atheist" (whatever that means) - is there some reason you think that? Or is it just an assumption you make abouit anyone who is amused by the spectacle of so-called "Christians" waving their alleged faith around in public like some flasher waving his dick?

So you're not smarter than me?

I try to assume that everybody else is smarter than I am - it's safer that way. No one has ever screwed up by overestimating the intelligence of a potential competitor.
Anyway - does it really matter? All we are really talking about here is a silly woman who thinks it's acceptable to try to set up an official state religion - do you have a position on this, or did you simply come into the thread to inform the rest of us that we are great big poopy-heads? Frankly, I'm already well aware that I am a great big poopy-head, and don't care.


Oh, OK.
ablackfurby.files.wordpress.com
http://ablackfurby.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/lets-be-friends.jpg
 
2013-04-11 08:25:59 AM

The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .


Or a Christian version of the Taliban.
 
2013-04-11 08:26:26 AM

dickfreckle: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

Some Farker once said that atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.


I completely agree that there are a good number of people - I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority are teenagers in the midst of their "you can't tell me what to do" phase, because I certainly went through it - that are the r/atheism type that think it's all about telling someone off on their Facebook page because they posted something with the word "blessed".  Or waiting for the moment when they sneeze, someone says "bless you", and they use that as their casus belli to go on an anti-religious rant.

I get severely annoyed by those people.  But those people aren't the ones that are trying to pass laws that make people's lives worse off.

I'm a realist.  My mother was an ordained minister, Disciples of Christ.  Perhaps it's because they weren't fire-eating Baptists or guilt-laden Catholics that I've never really had a problem with the existence of Christians.  They're always going to be there, and there's always a chance someone might want to say Grace before dinner.  I just quietly sit there and let them have their moment, while I make sure the proper amount of butter is on my hushpuppy.  I just want to make sure they aren't doing anything that infringes upon my rights or those of everyone else - like not being able to buy beer before noon on Sunday, or making sure responsible sex education is taught in our school system, or repealing a bullshiat amendment to the state constitution prohibiting certain people from getting married.

The people who look at the "I'm an atheist" attention whores and think they need to take the time to biatch about them before doing something about the actual Dominionists trying to ruin our nice things?  I think that falls into the "I'm glad you've found a way to feel superior to both" category.  And bless their hearts.
 
2013-04-11 08:26:28 AM

HotWingConspiracy: jso2897: HotWingConspiracy: Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

I don't engage in any of this and I'm an atheist.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Evidence like a comedian performing an "unbaptism".

Well, suppose it is. Are you asking that public officials should get up before a public assembly and affirmatively state that there is no god? Is anybody asking for that?

I'm not asking anyone for anything.


I didn't think so - I was just checking. See, the problem with this lady isn't what she believes - it's that she wants the state to affirmatively certify her personal beliefs as officially correct.
 
2013-04-11 08:26:45 AM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


They wouldn't qualify. Cashiering is a productive job that requires developing useful skills, thinking & problem solving, operating complex equipment, interpersonal interaction, and self discipline.

Politicians & bureaucrats aren't capable of those things; it's why they're politicians & bureaucrats.

See, one of our nation's greatest strengths is that we take the stupidest, most useless people around, and not only give them jobs, but also put them in charge.
 
2013-04-11 08:27:02 AM

jso2897: ph0rk: Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

It appears more likely that the belief that atheism is a religion is itself a religion.

Why even argue the point? I'm content to allow others to tell themselves whatever story regarding my faith or lack thereof that gives them comfort. It doesn't actually change anything, you know.


On Fark? Because Fark. In Real Life(tm), "atheism is a religion" is only a poorly digested talking point, and if you press them on it most folks will give it up.
 
2013-04-11 08:27:12 AM

Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion


Is your surname Letrole, by any chance?
 
2013-04-11 08:28:06 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-11 08:29:07 AM

Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]


Hahaha .. oh wow.. I didn't notice some Christian had made this joke much funnier... nice!
 
2013-04-11 08:29:32 AM

Angry Buddha: berylman: She's still not as vile as representative Virginia Foxx.

Oh come on! That's a porn star, not an elected official.


I'm loling because a girl I went to high school with does porn under the stage name Chloe Foxxx.

Yes, you can find her videos on Redtube.
 
2013-04-11 08:29:36 AM

jso2897: Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.

I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.


Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.
 
2013-04-11 08:30:38 AM

ph0rk: jso2897: ph0rk: Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

It appears more likely that the belief that atheism is a religion is itself a religion.

Why even argue the point? I'm content to allow others to tell themselves whatever story regarding my faith or lack thereof that gives them comfort. It doesn't actually change anything, you know.

On Fark? Because Fark. In Real Life(tm), "atheism is a religion" is only a poorly digested talking point, and if you press them on it most folks will give it up.


I'm not required to correct every foolish thing some fool believs, especially when it's not germain to the point under discussion. I don't want the leader of , say, my city council to start every session by proclaiming that there is no god, and that religion is bunk - nor do I want him leading it off with a prayer to some god or other - and that's the issue raised by TFA.
 
2013-04-11 08:30:41 AM

jso2897: I didn't think so - I was just checking. See, the problem with this lady isn't what she believes - it's that she wants the state to affirmatively certify her personal beliefs as officially correct


Also a belief - she doesn't just believe in God, Jesus, and the other stuff, but rather that it is her responsibility to encrust that in the local government.

If no one has mentioned it before, the whole kerfluffle started over Christian prayer before Rowan county government meetings, which lead to an ACLU lawsuit. The bill is more of an end run around the lawsuit than attempt to set a state religion for NC. (Not that some wouldn't like a state religion).
 
2013-04-11 08:32:45 AM

log_jammin: The bill, which was drafted by state Reps. Carl Ford (R-China Grove)

The people of the town are strange
And they're proud of where they came.


Whoa ho, Rep. Carl Ford!
 
2013-04-11 08:32:54 AM

Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]


So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?
 
2013-04-11 08:33:28 AM
Another stupid Christian Republican. But I repeat myself.
 
2013-04-11 08:34:06 AM

jso2897: I'm not required to correct every foolish thing some fool believs, especially when it's not germain to the point under discussion. I don't want the leader of , say, my city council to start every session by proclaiming that there is no god, and that religion is bunk - nor do I want him leading it off with a prayer to some god or other - and that's the issue raised by TFA.


Sure, context matters. The nice thing is you can always just go with "ok, fine. you think it is a religion. Aren't those, like, protected by the Constitution or something?" And wait for the sputtering to begin.

Won't help in cases like this with an elected official, but little you can actually say will help here. You? We - this is my state too.
 
2013-04-11 08:34:17 AM

Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.

I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.

Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.


It's OK to say anything you want on Fark, last time I checked, with the exception of using certain descriptive terms. Doesn't mean people are going to agree with you - and if you are going to get butthurt when you discover that your's is not the majority opinion, you may be a little to delicate for Fark.com.
 
2013-04-11 08:35:24 AM

ph0rk: Gig103: scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?

The short answer: Gerrymandering.

The longer answer: something about democracy, wolves, sheep, bread, and circuses.


I think a good bit of it has to do with the fact that the men who founded our country did so before the Second Great Awakening.  The First one really put an emphasis on egalitarianism and was very anti-hierarchical.  The Second Great Awakening really got going after the Constitution had been written.  This was the one that swept through the South and developed the region's strong ties to a handful of Protestant denominations.  The Second Great Awakening also had postmillennialism at its core - a belief that the End Times™ were a-comin', and you had to not only get yourself right, but get society right.  It's no coincidence that this is also when Southerners start defending their "peculiar institution" using the argument about slavery being in the Bible.
 
2013-04-11 08:35:32 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?


They were athier than just about anybody!
 
2013-04-11 08:35:35 AM
I tried to read through the comments on this one but it is too early and they are too random.

There really is not much more to say than this woman is an idiot but she represents her district which is probably also made up of xenophobic idiots also.
 
2013-04-11 08:36:34 AM

ph0rk: jso2897: I'm not required to correct every foolish thing some fool believs, especially when it's not germain to the point under discussion. I don't want the leader of , say, my city council to start every session by proclaiming that there is no god, and that religion is bunk - nor do I want him leading it off with a prayer to some god or other - and that's the issue raised by TFA.

Sure, context matters. The nice thing is you can always just go with "ok, fine. you think it is a religion. Aren't those, like, protected by the Constitution or something?" And wait for the sputtering to begin.

Won't help in cases like this with an elected official, but little you can actually say will help here. You? We - this is my state too.


No it isn't. I live in California - on the coast, where this kind of shenanigan is rare. They go pretty light on the official religion stuff out here.
 
2013-04-11 08:36:35 AM

UNC_Samurai: The people who look at the "I'm an atheist" attention whores and think they need to take the time to biatch about them before doing something about the actual Dominionists trying to ruin our nice things?  I think that falls into the "I'm glad you've found a way to feel superior to both" category.  And bless their hearts.


To be honest I get the impression more of them are basically running the tactic "Both Sides Are Bad So Legislate Christianity".
 
2013-04-11 08:36:53 AM

Joe Blowme: Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.


Did that actually make sense inside your head when you posted it?
 
2013-04-11 08:37:45 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?


They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.
 
2013-04-11 08:38:56 AM

UNC_Samurai: I think a good bit of it has to do with the fact that the men who founded our country did so before the Second Great Awakening.  The First one really put an emphasis on egalitarianism and was very anti-hierarchical.  The Second Great Awakening really got going after the Constitution had been written.  This was the one that swept through the South and developed the region's strong ties to a handful of Protestant denominations.  The Second Great Awakening also had postmillennialism at its core - a belief that the End Times™ were a-comin', and you had to not only get yourself right, but get society right.  It's no coincidence that this is also when Southerners start defending their "peculiar institution" using the argument about slavery being in the Bible.


All part of the delicate multilayered derpcake that is the history of the Southern psyche.
 
2013-04-11 08:40:08 AM

jso2897: Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.

I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.

Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.

It's OK to say anything you want on Fark, last time I checked, with the exception of using certain descriptive terms. Doesn't mean people are going to agree with you - and if you are going to get butthurt when you discover that your's is not the majority opinion, you may be a little to delicate for Fark.com.


LOL, i am a delicate flower. Would you suggest diaper rash ointment?
 
2013-04-11 08:40:58 AM

UNC_Samurai: neongoats: TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.

And the only thing more annoying than either of them are people who mistake "you can't systematically use government to force your religion on people" as "atheists forcing their beliefs on poor innocent jesusy folks"

Congrats.

I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's Homobortion Pot-n-Commie Jizzporium.


Now there is a holiday I can get behind. I'll bring cake.
 
2013-04-11 08:41:07 AM

ph0rk: jso2897: I didn't think so - I was just checking. See, the problem with this lady isn't what she believes - it's that she wants the state to affirmatively certify her personal beliefs as officially correct

Also a belief - she doesn't just believe in God, Jesus, and the other stuff, but rather that it is her responsibility to encrust that in the local government.

If no one has mentioned it before, the whole kerfluffle started over Christian prayer before Rowan county government meetings, which lead to an ACLU lawsuit. The bill is more of an end run around the lawsuit than attempt to set a state religion for NC. (Not that some wouldn't like a state religion).


Their problem in the General Assembly is, we realized something when Speaker Tillis kept having to say, "Sorry, that bill is dead, it won't be even going to a committee," to these whackjob bills the rural mouth-breathers keep filing.  We know full well that the state's Republican Leadership is capable of recognizing several members of their party have gone off the deep end, but they're not doing a damn thing to stop it at the source.  They're letting these bills see enough daylight that it's making our state a laughingstock.  So just think when you hear them go into damage control mode, they're worse than the chumps from Rowan County because they recognize the stupidity but are either too lazy to completely quash it or they only care when it's bad PR specifically for them.
 
2013-04-11 08:41:57 AM

jso2897: ph0rk: jso2897: I'm not required to correct every foolish thing some fool believs, especially when it's not germain to the point under discussion. I don't want the leader of , say, my city council to start every session by proclaiming that there is no god, and that religion is bunk - nor do I want him leading it off with a prayer to some god or other - and that's the issue raised by TFA.

Sure, context matters. The nice thing is you can always just go with "ok, fine. you think it is a religion. Aren't those, like, protected by the Constitution or something?" And wait for the sputtering to begin.

Won't help in cases like this with an elected official, but little you can actually say will help here. You? We - this is my state too.

No it isn't. I live in California - on the coast, where this kind of shenanigan is rare. They go pretty light on the official religion stuff out here.


Fine, your profile was nonspecific. My point is this is pretty close to home, so your hypothetical is our reality. And really, there isn't a damned thing I can do about Rowan county or Burnsville.
 
2013-04-11 08:42:21 AM

Biological Ali: Joe Blowme: Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.

Did that actually make sense inside your head when you posted it?


Kinda, but i hit "add comment" anyway just to see if you were paying attention
 
2013-04-11 08:42:41 AM

Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.

I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.

Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.

It's OK to say anything you want on Fark, last time I checked, with the exception of using certain descriptive terms. Doesn't mean people are going to agree with you - and if you are going to get butthurt when you discover that your's is not the majority opinion, you may be a little to delicate for Fark.com.

LOL, i am a delicate flower. Would you suggest diaper rash ointment?


I would suggest saying what you think, and not worrying about whether other people like it. If you are confident in the rectitude of your own beliefs, state them and defend them, and don't whine about the fact that your views may prove unpopular.
But it's only a suggestion - by all means, do as you like.
 
2013-04-11 08:44:12 AM

UNC_Samurai: Their problem in the General Assembly is, we realized something when Speaker Tillis kept having to say, "Sorry, that bill is dead, it won't be even going to a committee," to these whackjob bills the rural mouth-breathers keep filing.  We know full well that the state's Republican Leadership is capable of recognizing several members of their party have gone off the deep end, but they're not doing a damn thing to stop it at the source.  They're letting these bills see enough daylight that it's making our state a laughingstock.  So just think when you hear them go into damage control mode, they're worse than the chumps from Rowan County because they recognize the stupidity but are either too lazy to completely quash it or they only care when it's bad PR specifically for them.


I think the GOP is in a bind in states like this one, they are afraid to deal with the fundamentalist derp directly because of midterm election repercussions. I'm not sure I agree with their strategy, but then I would have divorced myself from the ultra-right wing a decade ago at the latest if I were the GOP leadership.
 
2013-04-11 08:44:40 AM

UNC_Samurai: ph0rk: jso2897: I didn't think so - I was just checking. See, the problem with this lady isn't what she believes - it's that she wants the state to affirmatively certify her personal beliefs as officially correct

Also a belief - she doesn't just believe in God, Jesus, and the other stuff, but rather that it is her responsibility to encrust that in the local government.

If no one has mentioned it before, the whole kerfluffle started over Christian prayer before Rowan county government meetings, which lead to an ACLU lawsuit. The bill is more of an end run around the lawsuit than attempt to set a state religion for NC. (Not that some wouldn't like a state religion).

Their problem in the General Assembly is, we realized something when Speaker Tillis kept having to say, "Sorry, that bill is dead, it won't be even going to a committee," to these whackjob bills the rural mouth-breathers keep filing.  We know full well that the state's Republican Leadership is capable of recognizing several members of their party have gone off the deep end, but they're not doing a damn thing to stop it at the source.  They're letting these bills see enough daylight that it's making our state a laughingstock.  So just think when you hear them go into damage control mode, they're worse than the chumps from Rowan County because they recognize the stupidity but are either too lazy to completely quash it or they only care when it's bad PR specifically for them.


Sounds like you are describing congress... both sides
 
2013-04-11 08:46:07 AM
Being a fiscial conservatice and a social moderate, I really know that I have no representation out there. Every other person is like this farking nitwit.
 
2013-04-11 08:47:03 AM

ph0rk: jso2897: ph0rk: jso2897: I'm not required to correct every foolish thing some fool believs, especially when it's not germain to the point under discussion. I don't want the leader of , say, my city council to start every session by proclaiming that there is no god, and that religion is bunk - nor do I want him leading it off with a prayer to some god or other - and that's the issue raised by TFA.

Sure, context matters. The nice thing is you can always just go with "ok, fine. you think it is a religion. Aren't those, like, protected by the Constitution or something?" And wait for the sputtering to begin.

Won't help in cases like this with an elected official, but little you can actually say will help here. You? We - this is my state too.

No it isn't. I live in California - on the coast, where this kind of shenanigan is rare. They go pretty light on the official religion stuff out here.

Fine, your profile was nonspecific. My point is this is pretty close to home, so your hypothetical is our reality. And really, there isn't a damned thing I can do about Rowan county or Burnsville.


i18.photobucket.com
Infiltrate, undermine, and subvert.
 
2013-04-11 08:47:16 AM

Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.


I'm not being a troll here, just ignorant. I thought one of the goals of communism was to create a society with out God. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.
 
2013-04-11 08:47:20 AM

jso2897: Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: jso2897: Joe Blowme: The Name: I can't imagine why some people think all Republican voters are bigots . . .

And yet you still wonder why all sane people see islam as bigoted and dangerous. Would it be bigoted to hate the rules of Rwanda? Best Korea? Pol Pot? Stalin? ect... Hating evil is not bigoted, tolerating it is a crime.

I'm not sure how the justification, or lack thereof, for anyone's feelings regarding some religion or other relates to the issue of whether it is legitimate to try to institute an official state religion.
Are you arguing that that's OK if the religion in quetsion is a "nice" religion, but not if it's a "nasty" one? Would it be OK to institute Zen Buddhism as the official state religion? I'm not following you.

Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical" even though if you open you eyes and look arround its much more than that then the BIGOT lable comes out.

It's OK to say anything you want on Fark, last time I checked, with the exception of using certain descriptive terms. Doesn't mean people are going to agree with you - and if you are going to get butthurt when you discover that your's is not the majority opinion, you may be a little to delicate for Fark.com.

LOL, i am a delicate flower. Would you suggest diaper rash ointment?

I would suggest saying what you think, and not worrying about whether other people like it. If you are confident in the rectitude of your own beliefs, state them and defend them, and don't .
But it's only a suggestion - by all means, do as you like.


Thanks, but i dont recall "whine about the fact that your views may prove unpopular"  but to you it may have seemed that way, sorry for the confusion
 
2013-04-11 08:47:30 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?


Why should I?

Once again: Atheism means the absence of a belief in God it can be used to refer to Joseph Stalin and Larry Adler

You're thinking of anti-theism as evidenced by the anti-religious doctrines of the Soviet Union and Communist China

I get that it's a pain for you not to label your "enemy" as a positive movement but the prefix "A" means a lack of something not an actual thing.
 
2013-04-11 08:47:39 AM

Joe Blowme: Not at all, my point is just that on FARk its ok to say all rebublicans or all christains or all cops but when you point out true evil, all the but but but justification of said evil comes out and then its " only a small % of them are "radical"


No, that isn't true.  Republicans are true evil.
 
2013-04-11 08:48:57 AM

TheGregiss: The only thing more annoying than an evangelical christian is an evangelical atheist.

Stop trying to shove your beliefs onto other people.


Oh the irony
 
2013-04-11 08:50:22 AM

Pants full of macaroni!!: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were athier than just about anybody!


ohlookit'sthisshiatagain.jpg

Although once again I'm laughing at this line of thinking, because it proves People Who biatch About Marx Do So in Indirect Proportion to How Much Marx They've Read.  Marx fought against the Church of England because of the coercive laws the government passed on its behalf.  You know, like those insipid blue laws we haven't been able to get rid of in the American southeast.  Marx also recognized that religion was often an avenue for the working class to protest working conditions.

Remember, the full quote about opiate of the masses is:


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

 
2013-04-11 08:50:29 AM

Pants full of macaroni!!: Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Is your surname Letrole, by any chance?


Biological Ali: Silverstaff: Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

2/10

Too wordy. You need to trim it down to, at most, two or three snappy sentences. See letrole's work for reference.


Why the  hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

No, I'm not a troll.  Yes, that's what I believe.  Yes, there are atheists who aren't full-derp doing these things.  I find it amusing that I can say something, support it with evidence, and be called a troll because I disagree with the atheistic groupthink.

Guess what, sometimes people you disagree with aren't trolls, they just disagree with you, and they aren't doing it to be contrary, it's because they have looked at the information and come to a conclusion you don't like.

There are a lot who are though, in the name of atheism do the same things that many do in the name of religion (intolerance ect.).  If you're going to go around and act like everyone who theistic is inferior to you, you will be treated the same as anyone else who goes full retard with their belief system.
 
2013-04-11 08:51:50 AM

Crewmannumber6: Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.

I'm not being a troll here, just ignorant. I thought one of the goals of communism was to create a society with out God. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.


Some communist regimes have tried to promote atheism, but the things they did to promote atheism have nothing to do with the atrocities that they're known for today.
 
2013-04-11 08:52:15 AM
Well, now I know what Alton Brown would look like in drag.
 
2013-04-11 08:52:22 AM

Mrfusticle: I get that it's a pain for you not to label your "enemy" as a positive movement but the prefix "A" means a lack of something not an actual thing.


So much for an intelligent exchange between adults. I tried anyway
 
2013-04-11 08:53:13 AM

Joe Blowme: Thanks, but i dont recall "whine about the fact that your views may prove unpopular" but to you it may have seemed that way, sorry for the confusion


No apolgies necessary - you don't have to explain yourself to me or anyone else.
Which was kind of my point, you see.
 
2013-04-11 08:53:42 AM

TheGregiss: which is essentially a religious gathering


No. That is not a religious gathering.
 
2013-04-11 08:53:50 AM

revrendjim: Here are your choices:

1. None of the religions in public spaces.

2. All of the religions in public spaces.


cache.ohinternet.com
 
2013-04-11 08:54:21 AM

Biological Ali: Crewmannumber6: Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.

I'm not being a troll here, just ignorant. I thought one of the goals of communism was to create a society with out God. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

Some communist regimes have tried to promote atheism, but the things they did to promote atheism have nothing to do with the atrocities that they're known for today.


Karl Marx was a Christian, and Marxism is largely derived from Christian values.
 
2013-04-11 08:54:40 AM

spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

When presented with a binary option (Is there at least one higher power that can be considered god-like?), the atheists look at existing observations and believe that there is no further explanation. Theists look at the same observations and believe that a higher authority is responsible for the complexity of life. Both are equally supported by philosophy. Atheists simply believe that the null hypothesis (ie no evidence suggesting a god has interacted with creation) is the standard. It's not a religion.

There. Now that's settled. We can stay on the topic of making fun of North Carolina.

The argument that I think Republicans would use
It is Freedom of Religion not Freedom of  a belief system, so if you want to be treated like a religion you need to be  willing to admit that atheism is a religion.


/shouldn't it be Best Carolina


You can't really be this stupid... Can you?
 
2013-04-11 08:54:46 AM

Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Better, but still too long. Try to cut down on the "Why are you calling me a troll?" indignation act - that's unbecoming, even by troll standards.
 
2013-04-11 08:54:52 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: I get that it's a pain for you not to label your "enemy" as a positive movement but the prefix "A" means a lack of something not an actual thing.

So much for an intelligent exchange between adults. I tried anyway


Difficult to have an adult exchange when the premise is so dumb
 
2013-04-11 08:55:55 AM

TheGregiss: vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.

Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.


Because we're out condescendingly trying to convert people? That's a laugh.
 
2013-04-11 08:56:06 AM

mactheknife: So if you're asking yourself "Why should I care?  I don't live in North Carolina," keep in mind that until a very short time ago, this was seen as a solid blue state when it came to state government and elections.  The issues at stake here are all too real, and the time for action - action restoring a practical, pragmatic, forward thinking, common sense approach to government - has come.  It's time for common sense to trump nonsense.


Louisiana, for much of its history, was also somewhat blue. Hell, we created a nearly full-on socialist (Long) who had a real shot at national office before being killed. As recently as hurricane Katrina we had a Dem governor (that storm and her reaction cost her her job, which she deserved to lose, but still).

Back in Huey Long's day, the rubes voted for the candidate that was more likely to achieve in their interests. Now they do the opposite, propping up whatever candidate hates homos and wants a regressive state tax policy. The Fox/Limbaugh bombardment has succeeded in securing rednecks who will ignore actual policy in favor of emotional rhetoric.

New Orleans will always be blue, and not just because we have a large black population. Even the white people trend Dem. But the state as a whole is now very red for all the wrong reasons. It's not rich people voting out of rational self-interest. It's rubes voting for who has the catchiest rhetorical talking points, masking the actual numbers and policies, and then wondering why their candidate shuts down hospitals and cuts education, or nearly raising the sales tax (regressive) in order to eliminate state income taxes under the guise of being "revenue neutral." It's like standing in line to vote for being farked in the ass, and smiling about it.

I'm not saying that voting Republican = stupid. I'm just saying that so many people are doing it for all the wrong reasons. As you said, it's time for common sense to trump nonsense. Supporting someone because he or she wants an official state religion under the guise of "religious freedom" is but one of these follies.
 
2013-04-11 08:56:11 AM

Silverstaff: neongoats: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

Then you start adding in ceremonies and rites, like unbaptism: Bill Maher performing an unbaptism


You understand that Bill Maher is a comedian right? and sometimes does things for their comedic value.

Then you start having church services and congregations of an Atheist Church: Sunday Assembly

WTF is that?

Then you start writing books about how you're the only correct belief system and that everyone else is deluded and mentally ill and are mentally inferior to your belief system: The God Delusion

Not to mention the writings of many philosophers, scientists, anthropologists and folks like Thomas Jefferson. Yes, yes, of course, philosophy and science are actually just religions.

They even have had organized militant members, devoted to extermination of the worshipers of other beliefs: League of Militant Atheists

That was an arm of the Soviet State, just another way to enforce Soviet ideology. It ceased to exist in 1947. Bit of a stretch, don't you think?

They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:
[www.religioustolerance.org image 102x87][www.religioustolerance.org image 91x90][tuftsfreethought.org image 114x99][ecx.images-amazon.com image 98x98]


Businesses and software products have logos, too. Ergo, they are, of course, religions.

Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

By the criteria you've given virtually every collective human endeavor is a religion. Sports, Politics, Science, Business: all are religions.

Good Jorb!
 
2013-04-11 08:57:11 AM

Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.
 
2013-04-11 08:57:13 AM
I see the old "Atheism is a Religion" canard has been wheeled out in this thread.

I don't get why I should have to believe in Thor, Zeus, or this "Yahweh" character like you religious assholes.

I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, either. I don't believe that there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden. I don't believe in Harry Potter. But for some reason I'm supposed to accept creationism being taught in schools?

Fark that.
 
2013-04-11 08:57:18 AM

spongeboob: kronicfeld: spongeboob: I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion. I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Is that like "admitting" that rain falls up?

perhaps I should have said in order to be treated the same as a religion atheist would need to claim that atheism is/is like a religion.


Okay, you really are. Never mind. You're excused.
 
2013-04-11 08:57:35 AM

Crewmannumber6: Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.

I'm not being a troll here, just ignorant. I thought one of the goals of communism was to create a society with out God. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.


Bear with me I'm going from  memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life. The goal of the perfect sate (communism in his opinion) should be to remove the NEED for religion. In other words people should be so happy and content that they don't need religion to make them feel better. The problem is communism sucks and people were miserable.  In order to have political power (and thus any real prospects for employment) you needed to be a party member in good standing. Going to church was a sign of malcontent and pretty much a death sentence for your life as a party member.

Some states went even further in attempts to prove their systems validity and outlawed religion. For some reason communism has a real inferiority complex and needs to show the world how perfect their 'radiant future' is. So basically instead of actually fixing their problems they just outlawed people from acting as if there were problems.
 
2013-04-11 08:58:28 AM

Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


A lot of people here are sticklers for technical rectitude (the best kind of rectitude).
May I suggest you adopt the terms "ideology" and "ideologue" - that way, no one can deflect your point with what is basically a semantic argument (an old and tiresome one, too, I might add).
 
2013-04-11 09:00:53 AM

Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.


If it looks like the sun rises in the east, travels across the sky, and sets in the west, then the earth must circle the sun.

Congratulations! You've managed to reach a middle ages level of enlightenment!

/Wake us up when you discover electricity.
//Hint: it's the magic juice that makes your computer run
 
2013-04-11 09:00:53 AM

cfletch13: Angry Buddha: berylman: She's still not as vile as representative Virginia Foxx.

Oh come on! That's a porn star, not an elected official.

I'm loling because a girl I went to high school with does porn under the stage name Chloe Foxxx.

Yes, you can find her videos on Redtube.


Does GIS.

Ugh.
 
2013-04-11 09:01:15 AM

jso2897: May I suggest you adopt the terms "ideology" and "ideologue" - that way, no one can deflect your point with what is basically a semantic argument (an old and tiresome one, too, I might add).


Yes,  avoid a semantic ploy by adopting a slightly different word to get the same exact argument across, while also shielding yourself from criticism on a technicality of wording.  That will  avoid a semantic argument.
 
2013-04-11 09:02:21 AM
Pray in silence, God will hear you. He doesn't give a crap, but he will hear you. Repeat 10 times and then kill yourself.
 
2013-04-11 09:03:13 AM
Did I step into a timewarp? "Atheism is a religion" on Fark in 2013? The fark?
 
2013-04-11 09:03:48 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: jso2897: May I suggest you adopt the terms "ideology" and "ideologue" - that way, no one can deflect your point with what is basically a semantic argument (an old and tiresome one, too, I might add).

Yes,  avoid a semantic ploy by adopting a slightly different word to get the same exact argument across, while also shielding yourself from criticism on a technicality of wording.  That will  avoid a semantic argument.


You know what I mean.
 
2013-04-11 09:05:08 AM
I'm all for spaces in pub licre lig ion.
 
2013-04-11 09:05:20 AM

CPennypacker: Did I step into a timewarp? "Atheism is a religion" on Fark in 2013? The fark?


LeTrole has recruited a follower evidently.
 
2013-04-11 09:05:21 AM

Trapper439: I see the old "Atheism is a Religion" canard has been wheeled out in this thread.

I don't get why I should have to believe in Thor, Zeus, or this "Yahweh" character like you religious assholes.

I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, either. I don't believe that there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden. I don't believe in Harry Potter. But for some reason I'm supposed to accept creationism being taught in schools?

Fark that.


Well, to be fair, it's entirely possible to teach atheistic Intelligent Design: "Yes kids, our eyeballs were to complex to have evolved. So we want to tell you about how an ancient spacefaring race came along and genetically manipulated early life forms to have eyeballs. And then came back a billion years later and gave us speech!"
 
2013-04-11 09:05:56 AM

UNC_Samurai: I completely agree that there are a good number of people - I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority are teenagers in the midst of their "you can't tell me what to do" phase, because I certainly went through it - that are the r/atheism type that think it's all about telling someone off on their Facebook page because they posted something with the word "blessed".  Or waiting for the moment when they sneeze, someone says "bless you", and they use that as their casus belli to go on an anti-religious rant.

I get severely annoyed by those people.  But those people aren't the ones that are trying to pass laws that make people's lives worse off.


Christ, we all hate the assholes you describe. They don't do non-believers like myself any favors, and the fervor with which they operate is why some people confuse atheism as a religion itself.

The whole "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby" thing is exactly what it sounds like. I don't believe, but I also don't give a damn what you do until you're an elected official who has the power to force your belief on me - in the process gleefully pissing on the Constitution you claim to love so much.

If these idgets keep it up, I'm just gonna start real-life trolling and chanting Muslim prayers at every government event I can gain access to Fire with fire, so to speak.

/needs to memorize some mooslin prayers, because WTF do I know
 
2013-04-11 09:07:08 AM

Silverstaff: Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

If it sounds like a religion, talks like a religion, and acts like a religion, it's a religion.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion


Congratz ... this is some fine concentrated stupidity you have here.

To be clear, "atheists" did not do any of the above. We are not a group and we do not act as a group.

Some atheists have done some of the things you mention. But suggesting that these are common to all atheists is like insisting that all christians are abortion doctor murderers. Since some christians have brutally murdered abortion doctors in cold blood that must mean all christians are vicious murderers, right? That is your logic, correct??

If this is not the case then please stop posting this stupidity.
 
2013-04-11 09:10:32 AM

Crewmannumber6: Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.

I'm not being a troll here, just ignorant. I thought one of the goals of communism was to create a society with out God. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.


The goal was for the state to replace God. The opposition to the Abrahamic religions was because they were seen as competitive ideas.

But some people have this idea of some Dawkins-esque character persecuting the religious.
 
2013-04-11 09:11:18 AM

Misch: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?

It's the latest tack a number of states are trying to push, that the amendments of the Constitution don't apply to the states themselves.


Except for the Second Amendment.
 
2013-04-11 09:13:48 AM

Gig103: scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?


This is why:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening. And many would argue that we are currently experiencing the third great awakening. Certainly enough derp going around to support it.
 
2013-04-11 09:14:03 AM

jso2897: You know what I mean.


Yes.  I do.
 
2013-04-11 09:15:07 AM

Egoy3k: Bear with me I'm going from memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life.


Just in case you missed it.
 
2013-04-11 09:15:56 AM

UNC_Samurai: ph0rk: jso2897: I didn't think so - I was just checking. See, the problem with this lady isn't what she believes - it's that she wants the state to affirmatively certify her personal beliefs as officially correct

Also a belief - she doesn't just believe in God, Jesus, and the other stuff, but rather that it is her responsibility to encrust that in the local government.

If no one has mentioned it before, the whole kerfluffle started over Christian prayer before Rowan county government meetings, which lead to an ACLU lawsuit. The bill is more of an end run around the lawsuit than attempt to set a state religion for NC. (Not that some wouldn't like a state religion).

Their problem in the General Assembly is, we realized something when Speaker Tillis kept having to say, "Sorry, that bill is dead, it won't be even going to a committee," to these whackjob bills the rural mouth-breathers keep filing.  We know full well that the state's Republican Leadership is capable of recognizing several members of their party have gone off the deep end, but they're not doing a damn thing to stop it at the source.  They're letting these bills see enough daylight that it's making our state a laughingstock.  So just think when you hear them go into damage control mode, they're worse than the chumps from Rowan County because they recognize the stupidity but are either too lazy to completely quash it or they only care when it's bad PR specifically for them.


Tillis is probably afraid that if he stomps on the rural redneck Republican politicians too hard, he might find himself out of a job as Speaker. Plus there are some of their ideas he supports; calling for background checks on all people getting government assistance, requiring all students to learn how to write cursive, and taking power away from the cities in NC, for example.
 
2013-04-11 09:16:14 AM
Damn.. This thread went to a place that doesn't exist real quick
 
2013-04-11 09:16:22 AM

oeneus: Gig103: scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?

This is why:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening. And many would argue that we are currently experiencing the third great awakening. Certainly enough derp going around to support it.


The argument is that we're experiencing the Fourth Great Awakening.  The Third took place in the late 19th century.  That was also the one that really cranked the temperance movement to 11, so you're morally allowed to condemn those people.
 
2013-04-11 09:18:38 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: I get that it's a pain for you not to label your "enemy" as a positive movement but the prefix "A" means a lack of something not an actual thing.

So much for an intelligent exchange between adults. I tried anyway


No you didn't. You tried to force people to concede to your talking points and are crying now when they refused.

The political leaders you mentioned were trying to eliminate competing power bases. Their actions cannot have been motivated by atheism. Atheism has no leaders, no dogma, no books/writings/verbal teachings. There is absolutely nothing in atheism that can be used to motivate any action.
 
2013-04-11 09:21:11 AM
Silverstaff:
They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:
[www.religioustolerance.org image 102x87][www.religioustolerance.org image 91x90][tuftsfreethought.org image 114x99][ecx.images-amazon.com image 98x98]


I kind of like the Darwin one, it's funny with the little legs.
 
2013-04-11 09:21:45 AM
This is what "christian" conservative fascists actually believe.
 
2013-04-11 09:24:01 AM

Farking Canuck: Silverstaff: Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

If it sounds like a religion, talks like a religion, and acts like a religion, it's a religion.

Sorry, the evidence is clear that atheism is a religion

Congratz ... this is some fine concentrated stupidity you have here.

To be clear, "atheists" did not do any of the above. We are not a group and we do not act as a group.

Some atheists have done some of the things you mention. But suggesting that these are common to all atheists is like insisting that all christians are abortion doctor murderers. Since some christians have brutally murdered abortion doctors in cold blood that must mean all christians are vicious murderers, right? That is your logic, correct??

If this is not the case then please stop posting this stupidity.


There is a practical agenda behind it - a dominionist agenda. The logic works like this:
Atheism is a religion.
Therefore, if the government remains silent on the subject of religion, it is actually endorsing a religion - atheism.
Thereby, we have established that the government MUST endorse some religion or other - so, which one?
Well, it's a democracy, so it should be the religion of the majority - Christianity.
Therefore, in order to abide by the First Amendment, the government must endorse Christianity.
It's airtight logic - study it out.
 
2013-04-11 09:25:21 AM

oeneus: This is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening. And many would argue that we are currently experiencing the third great awakening. Certainly enough derp going around to support it.


Except church attendance is way down compared to previous generations/eras. It more about the fact that the religious are becoming less powerful, and so the derp is getting turned up to 11. The social conservatives have lost pretty much every cultural battle for the last 50 to 100 years. Starting with women's suffrage, then civil rights, the sexual liberation of the 60s/70s, and now acceptance of homosexuals. And they've driven more and more people away, so what you have left is a core of fundamentalists.
 
2013-04-11 09:27:32 AM

mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)


It's your Moroccan friend's duty to ask.  I've had exactly the same conversation with a commuter train buddy who's Muslim.  I forget which surah mentions it.
 
2013-04-11 09:30:45 AM

mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)


I highly recommend the Czech Republic. Lots of churches but most of them are used as concert venues now.
 
2013-04-11 09:33:46 AM

oeneus: mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)

I highly recommend the Czech Republic. Lots of churches but most of them are used as concert venues now.


Went to Prague in 88 and 89

Beautiful buildings
Beautiful beer
Beautiful women
Terrible food
 
2013-04-11 09:33:49 AM

Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?


No, they were brutal dictators.

Silverstaff: They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:


I know, having a car decal means you're part of a religion.  See.

oddculture.com
 
2013-04-11 09:34:14 AM

UNC_Samurai: oeneus: Gig103: scottydoesntknow: The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Well said. Sad that she doesn't even see the irony in saying we need to protect religious freedom in the same breath she is condemning a religion.  How is it that our Founding Fathers were so on-the-ball about this stuff but we've regressed into stupid Christian bullshiat?

This is why:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening. And many would argue that we are currently experiencing the third great awakening. Certainly enough derp going around to support it.

The argument is that we're experiencing the Fourth Great Awakening.  The Third took place in the late 19th century.  That was also the one that really cranked the temperance movement to 11, so you're morally allowed to condemn those people.


I stand corrected. Damn my poor memory and the third great awakening people!
 
2013-04-11 09:35:50 AM

Biological Ali: TheGregiss: which is essentially a religious gathering.

Sure, much in the same way that my friend's weekly amateur soccer practice sessions are "essentially a religious gathering".


No, no, no. It's like when Chicken Little tells everyone the sky is falling so they all gather together and look up and see that the sky is indeed NOT falling. They are now a religious group that has faith that the sky is not falling.
 
2013-04-11 09:36:31 AM

Karac: Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.


What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.  I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist.  That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

What about atheists who filed lawsuits against the Federal Government because astronauts were so moved by the sight of the Earth from space that they spontaneously said a prayer out loud, and wanted Astronauts from being banned from prayer during spaceflight?  Madeline Murray O'Hare did that one back in the Apollo era.

As for militant atheists, if you'll check that link I posted, back in the 1920's through 1940's there was indeed a "League of Militant Atheists" who went around demolishing churches, imprisoning clergy, and working towards an avowed goal of the eradication of all religion.  Yes, they were an arm of the government of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean they were not atheists who were militant to the desire to crush theism and oppress people because they believed differently.
 
2013-04-11 09:38:32 AM

Zasteva: Silverstaff: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.

If it looks like the sun rises in the east, travels across the sky, and sets in the west, then the earth must circle the sun.

Congratulations! You've managed to reach a middle ages level of enlightenment!

/Wake us up when you discover electricity.
//Hint: it's the magic juice that makes your computer run


So you are saying i should stop putting gerbil treats in my cd rom drive?
www.youthblog.org
 
2013-04-11 09:38:40 AM

miscreant: oeneus: This is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening. And many would argue that we are currently experiencing the third great awakening. Certainly enough derp going around to support it.

Except church attendance is way down compared to previous generations/eras. It more about the fact that the religious are becoming less powerful, and so the derp is getting turned up to 11. The social conservatives have lost pretty much every cultural battle for the last 50 to 100 years. Starting with women's suffrage, then civil rights, the sexual liberation of the 60s/70s, and now acceptance of homosexuals. And they've driven more and more people away, so what you have left is a core of fundamentalists.


Agreed! But my post was trying to point out why we're so different from our founding fathers.

/Well, the first part of my post was about the change since the constitution was written. The second part was just inaccurate whaaaarble.
 
2013-04-11 09:39:07 AM
If I started each day with a limited number of people I could tell to shutup and they magically would, I'd be out of magical shutup wishes just reading this thread and it's not even breakfast yet.
 
2013-04-11 09:44:20 AM

Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.


Some people are jerks therefore it's a religion.  Your logic is inescapable.
 
2013-04-11 09:45:00 AM

Fart_Machine: Silverstaff: They have even adopted symbols to define their belief system:

I know, having a car decal means you're part of a religion. See.


Nice strawman you're trying to build of what I said.

I listed symbols as the last thing on a long list of things that atheists have been doing that have taken atheism from simply not believing in God to a complete belief system/religion.

An actual physical Church, complete with regular congregation.
A rite/ceremony of initiation.
Dogmatic texts.


Here's the funny thing, I'm not Christian, I haven't set foot in a Christian church (aside from attending a funeral and going to a wedding chapel) in 16 years.  I'm theistic but I'm not in-your-face about it (and don't really fit into any one religion in terms of my belief system), I am just tired of Atheists trying to say they aren't a religion while going around doing all the things that religious people do, but denying it.

Don't want to be called a religion?  Stop acting like one.  Don't get in other peoples faces about it.  Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.

Yeah, not every Atheist does that, but not every religious person is out to create a worldwide Caliphate or Dominionist Theocracy.  Not every religious person is out there shoving their beliefs in your face, just like not every atheist is.

However, if you're going to go around and talk about religion collectively, and complain about how they are bad people doing bad things, you better watch yourselves so you don't act the same way, just under the banner of a different belief system.
 
2013-04-11 09:45:09 AM

Fart_Machine: Crewmannumber6:

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiestatheist extremists?

No, they were brutal dictators.


Marx was a dictator?
 
2013-04-11 09:45:37 AM

Silverstaff: As for militant atheists, if you

blah, blah, blah, etc.

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all. Now, a question: do you believe that if government remains silent on religion, it is endorsing atheism? Do you believe that government institutions should publicly conduct religious ceremonies? Because that is what is actually under discussion here.
I don't hear any "atheists" demanding an atheist invocations by government officials. Do you? Can you provide a citation of this?
The rest of this crap is an irrelevant red herring argument, designed to distract from the issue this woman's statements raise.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:16 AM

Thunderboy: Fart_Machine: Crewmannumber6:

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiestatheist extremists?

No, they were brutal dictators.

Marx was a dictator?


Ah, you got me.
 
2013-04-11 09:47:45 AM
 
2013-04-11 09:47:46 AM

Silverstaff: Karac: Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.

What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.  I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist.  That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

What about atheists who filed lawsuits against the Federal Government because astronauts were so moved by the sight of the Earth from space that they spontaneously said a prayer out loud, and wanted Astronauts from being banned from prayer during spaceflight?  Madeline Murray O'Hare did that one back in the Apollo era.

As for militant atheists, if you'll check that link I posted, back in the 1920's through 1940's there was indeed a "League of Militant Atheists" who went around demolishing churches, imprisoning clergy, and working towards an avowed goal of the eradication of all religion.  Yes, they were an arm of the government of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean they were not atheists who were militant to the desire to crush theism and oppress people because they believed differently.


Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.
 
2013-04-11 09:50:18 AM

Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.


I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:23 AM

Silverstaff: Nice strawman you're trying to build of what I said.

I listed symbols as the last thing on a long list of things that atheists have been doing that have taken atheism from simply not believing in God to a complete belief system/religion.


Pointing out the flaws in your argument isn't a strawman.  Basically you've used a few individual anecdotes (like a comedian performing an unbaptism) and defined a non-belief as a religion.  I'm sorry but you look silly.   Also writing a book offering a logical criticism against religion doesn't make it a "dogmatic religious text".  Just like writing a book skeptical of Bigfoot doesn't make it a religion of anti-Bigfoot.
 
2013-04-11 09:53:55 AM

Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.


He doesn't want to talk about that. He likes the "atheism is a religion argument" - but when you concede his "point" and ask him about who is ACTUALLY trying to force their religion on the rest of us through government ................ crickets.
 
2013-04-11 09:56:26 AM

Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.


That's what I think is so funny. All he's doing is proving people are dicks. Thanks for the update Rick. People of all bents are dicks, one group of the people actively seek political power and try to use that power to codify their religious beliefs into law and prevent the constitutionally protected rights of religions they don't like.

The other group is made up mostly of people who are meanie heads on the Internet. Silverstaff is bent out of shape about the latter, because he's got his priorities straight.
 
2013-04-11 09:57:16 AM

Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.


Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).
 
2013-04-11 09:57:48 AM

Fart_Machine: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

Some people are jerks therefore it's a religion.  Your logic is inescapable.


Been having a think and it struck me: The reason Religious folks don't understand the basic principle of logic - that something asserted has to be proven wheras the absence of that assertion doesn't - goes right to the core of their own belief.. That faith is an assertion that, by definition, cannot be proven and that the refutation of it is therefore heresy.

Therefore because they have the positive assertion thing all backwards an Atheist saying "I don't believe there is a god" sounds to them like "There is no god" ... (Of course many atheists may pronounce this since they're not beholden to a positive assertion but would concede that they actually mean, when pressed by a pedant, "I don't believe there is a god" (unless they're a jerk, as you say))
 
2013-04-11 09:58:05 AM

UNC_Samurai: Egoy3k: Bear with me I'm going from memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life.

Just in case you missed it.


I figured somebody would have done a better job than I did I guess I should have read the thread to see that someone already had.
 
2013-04-11 09:58:18 AM
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, world views, and customs. Since atheists aren't organized and merely share one common lack of belief, I don't see how they qualify, even if you consider that some of them write books or make jokes that others read or laugh at. You may disagree with the way atheists express their opinions but that does not mean you can invent new definitions for existing words to classify them with.
 
2013-04-11 09:58:39 AM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one. Don't get in other peoples faces about it. Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


I never realized that mockery and "getting in peoples faces" were the only qualifications for a religion.
 
2013-04-11 09:59:50 AM

Somacandra: [www.tdpri.com image 313x350]

"We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"


Methodists? In NC? They would be flayed for such a crime. The Baptists in the area barely tolerate the Presbyterians, detest the Catholics, Anglicans, make fun of the Pentacostals for they are the true crazies, even if they are useful at times to throw as cannonfodder against the other sects,  and everyone else is a vile evil cult going against the one true sect. They are utter nutjobs. At least around this area. It kind of scary.

Of course this is also the area that keeps voting in Virginia Foxx into office.
 
2013-04-11 10:00:00 AM
Silverstaff: 

I'm not Christian

No, you're a troll.. we know that.


/not saying Christians can't be trolls
//anymore more than atheists can't be extremists
 
2013-04-11 10:00:10 AM

natas6.0: yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like


Then we'll make sure that it is something you don't like, so you can always be the one to walk the fark out.

Deal?
 
2013-04-11 10:00:16 AM

Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049


So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum
 
2013-04-11 10:00:28 AM

Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).


Rick Warren is a New Apostolic Reformation preacher that opens his mouth and makes Pat Robertson look almost sane. Sarah Palin's and Louie Gohmert's church. Real Nazism wrapped in the words of Christianity.
 
2013-04-11 10:00:42 AM

The Homer Tax: Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.

That's what I think is so funny. All he's doing is proving people are dicks. Thanks for the update Rick. People of all bents are dicks, one group of the people actively seek political power and try to use that power to codify their religious beliefs into law and prevent the constitutionally protected rights of religions they don't like.

The other group is made up mostly of people who are meanie heads on the Internet. Silverstaff is bent out of shape about the latter, because he's got his priorities straight.


I've pretty much accepted that he refuses to discuss the issue.
 
2013-04-11 10:03:01 AM

Egoy3k: Bear with me I'm going from  memory and some more intelligent farker might need to correct me.There is a a line in Marx's writing that is commonly quoted as, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" It's been continually quoted out of context and misunderstood since the book was written. What Marx was trying to say was that religion makes people who have shiatty lives feel better about their life. The goal of the perfect sate (communism in his opinion) should be to remove the NEED for religion. In other words people should be so happy and content that they don't need religion to make them feel better. The problem is communism sucks and people were miserable.  In order to have political power (and thus any real prospects for employment) you needed to be a party member in good standing. Going to church was a sign of malcontent and pretty much a death sentence for your life as a party member.Some states went even further in attempts to prove their systems validity and outlawed religion. For some reason communism has a real inferiority complex and needs to show the world how perfect their 'radiant future' is. So basically instead of actually fixing their problems they just outlawed people from acting as if there were problems.


I seem to remember a large part of why religions were banned was because they created a power center for resistance against the state, in the same way that trade unions were a threat and were taken over or dissolved by the government to avoid becoming a launching pad for rebellion.

CPennypacker: Did I step into a timewarp? "Atheism is a religion" on Fark in 2013? The fark?


I presume the entire point of that line of argument is if you can persuade people that atheism is a religion, then they shouldn't be able to interfere with what government does any more than other religions. Basically when Christians try to insert their prayer into a council meeting or whatever, they get told they can't due to the 1st Amendment, so then they try to frame it that not praying at a council meeting is part of the "Atheist Religion" and hence not praying should equally be disallowed by the 1st Amendment.
 
2013-04-11 10:03:31 AM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one.


Do you believe that all christians are abortion doctor murderers?

Some are so, by your logic, all are. Right?
 
2013-04-11 10:03:36 AM
She makes me ashamed to live in NC.  =(
 
2013-04-11 10:03:41 AM

log_jammin: Karac: One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"

OMG....that is simply an awesome idea!


I think the Latin would probably do the job.

for the record,

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;adveniat Regnum Tuum;fiat voluntas Tua,sicut in caelo, et in terra.Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;et dimitte nobis debita nostra,sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;et ne nos inducas in tentationem;sed libera nos a Malo.Amen.
 
2013-04-11 10:04:25 AM

Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).


I still don't know what opinion you're disagreeing with; the opinion that there is no god or the opinion that government should not endorse a religion. Because "atheism is not a religion" isn't opinion, it's fact. Even if a group of atheists get together and read chapters out of a Dawkins book out loud to each other that is not a religious gathering. If they started praying to Dawkins and expected him to actually use magic powers to hear and answer their prayers, then you might have a point.
 
2013-04-11 10:06:29 AM

limeyfellow: Somacandra: [www.tdpri.com image 313x350]

"We got BOTH kinds of religion here: Baptists AND Methodists!"

Methodists? In NC? They would be flayed for such a crime. The Baptists in the area barely tolerate the Presbyterians, detest the Catholics, Anglicans, make fun of the Pentacostals for they are the true crazies, even if they are useful at times to throw as cannonfodder against the other sects,  and everyone else is a vile evil cult going against the one true sect. They are utter nutjobs. At least around this area. It kind of scary.

Of course this is also the area that keeps voting in Virginia Foxx into office.


I was raised a Methodist in NC.  That's mostly true.

/Baptists freaking scare me sometimes
 
2013-04-11 10:07:12 AM

Mr. Cat Poop: Silverstaff: Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.

Pat Robertson is a farking lunatic.  He opens his mouth, dumb comes out.

I'm not Christian.  Don't think that I am.  Go ahead, search my old posts, when have I EVER on Fark said I was a currently a Christian (I was until circa 1997, I might have mentioned that at one point).  Here's a hint, not everyone that disagrees with your opinion is a fundamentalist Christian.

I'd have to google to know who those other three are (I think that Warren guy is a megachurch pastor, or maybe that guy from Focus on the Family, but I'm not going to google it to emphasize that I honestly don't know).

I still don't know what opinion you're disagreeing with; the opinion that there is no god or the opinion that government should not endorse a religion. Because "atheism is not a religion" isn't opinion, it's fact. Even if a group of atheists get together and read chapters out of a Dawkins book out loud to each other that is not a religious gathering. If they started praying to Dawkins and expected him to actually use magic powers to hear and answer their prayers, then you might have a point.


He's trying to establish, I think, that if government is silent on the subject of religion, it is violating the first amendment, because atheism is a religion, or something. I don't know, because he won't say.
 
2013-04-11 10:09:24 AM

Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum


Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)
 
2013-04-11 10:11:00 AM

jso2897: Karac: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill? That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded. I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist. That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

I'll be worried about them when they get elected and try to pass a law based on that line of thinking.

He doesn't want to talk about that. He likes the "atheism is a religion argument" - but when you concede his "point" and ask him about who is ACTUALLY trying to force their religion on the rest of us through government ................ crickets.


Oh, I'll freely admit that there are very, very few cases of atheists trying to force their belief system on other people.  (I would say that the O'Hair lawsuit about the Apollo program would could).  It's certainly not common.

I wasn't trying to argue that it was, I don't believe I ever tried to argue that here, or anywhere.  All this time I was rebutting the idea that atheism is not a religion.

jso2897: Silverstaff: As for militant atheists, if you blah, blah, blah, etc.

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all. Now, a question: do you believe that if government remains silent on religion, it is endorsing atheism? Do you believe that government institutions should publicly conduct religious ceremonies? Because that is what is actually under discussion here.
I don't hear any "atheists" demanding an atheist invocations by government officials. Do you? Can you provide a citation of this?
The rest of this crap is an irrelevant red herring argument, designed to distract from the issue this woman's statements raise.


If a government is silent on religion, it's not endorsing atheism.  Just plain leaving God out in any way, shape or form is what the US should be doing.

Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.

We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists.  The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.

When people start organizing together, reading books about how God doesn't exist, holding meetings together on that subject in a place devoted to that belief, trying to convince others that what they believe true, going around on the Internet saying they hope that religion will be declared a mental illness, and use symbols to describe their collective lack of belief. . .then you've gone Atheist.
 
2013-04-11 10:11:29 AM

Langdon_777: Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum

Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)


Even cancer cells?
 
2013-04-11 10:13:27 AM

Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.


Sadly, many interpret this to mean that you do in fact need to be worshipping something.
 
2013-04-11 10:17:06 AM
And this is why I don't support prayer in school.

/CSB: A hundred years ago, in a persuasive speaking course in college, I started a speech on prayer in school with a Satanic prayer. Half the class left, proving my point 30 seconds in to a seven minute speech.
 
2013-04-11 10:18:02 AM

Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Because we don't want to believe that you are really that much of a fool.
We'd much rather give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you are posting deliberately provocative statements in order to stimulate emtion outbursts in others.

Perhaps we are giving you too much credit.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:34 AM
I didn't read the whole thread, but there is more info about it here:   http://www.wral.com/national-group-calls-on-gop-to-repudiate-nc-lawma k er-/12326400/

"No, I do not condone terrorism," Presnell responded. "Britt, we just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom, or it will be whisked away from us."

"I am saddened that you make a leap from Allah to terrorism so quickly," Kaufmann responded. "If the state sets a precedent of choosing one religion above others, we have to be prepared for any religion to be chosen as the preferential one."

"No, you are wrong," Presnell responded. "Have a good day."

 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.
 No, you are wrong.  Have a good day.


Amazing.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:38 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


This is incorrect. If they are "without god", as anyone who has never even heard of the concept would be, then they are atheist - this is the direct translation of the word.

You have been beaten 7 ways from Sunday on this issue and you still are sticking to your guns. That in itself is almost a religious belief. I say 'almost' because I would never actually arbitrarily call something a religion ... I am not an idiot.
 
2013-04-11 10:19:54 AM

Lackofname: spongeboob: Just today I was thinking

If you told the average American that a political candidate's religion was
A middle Eastern religion that believe that all people were evil and that they long. for the day that their deity destroyed the world and the people in it except for their fellow believers, that young children who died would spend eternity being tortured unless they had undergone a magical ritual.

Would the average American vote for that candidate?

Dude, I don't think the average American would even vote for an atheist.


DUUUDE, the avereage American doesn't even vote at all (thank the FSM, I mean could you imagine how bad things would be if the stupider half of America got off their couches and voted). Only around 55% of registered voters voted in the last PRESIDENTIAL election, mid-terms are even lower and some special elections get to be where 3 old ladies turn up by accident thinking it was bingo night and vote instead. And that was registered voters, not everyone registers, from 2008-2012 8 milion MORE people registered to vote but 5 million FEWER actually voted.

Thank the FSM for the apathy of the incredibly stupid so the truly stupid can get on with governing.
 
2013-04-11 10:20:17 AM

Silverstaff: Why the  hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?


Okay. I'm going to take you seriously. I'll start by apologizing for my snarky "you've reached the middle ages" comment earlier.

I see from your profile that you describe yourself as a peace officer. I'm guessing that you have that job at least partly because you dislike criminal behavior and want help protect people from violence. I noticed you specifically mentioned that people sometimes call you a fascist  because of your job.

Atheists dislike theist behavior and want to protect people from the irrationality, harm and violence that often comes about from theist irrationality (this is not to say that atheists are always rational or non-violent).

When people tell us that we are just practicing our own religion, you are saying that we are theists. Since this is exactly the opposite of what we are, it's a little offensive to many of us. Just like many peace officers would be offended to be called fascists or violent criminals.

No, I'm not a troll.  Yes, that's what I believe.  Yes, there are atheists who aren't full-derp doing these things.  I find it amusing that I can say something, support it with evidence, and be called a troll because I disagree with the atheistic groupthink.

We understand it's what you believe. Most atheists prefer an evidence based approach to shaping our world-view, rather than a belief based one. The evidence for atheism as a religion that you've presented is flimsy and easily refuted (please see my earlier reply to your evidence).

I'd be happy to have a serious discussion with you about this and I promise to refrain from further snark.
 
2013-04-11 10:25:26 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


That is an accurate description of an atheist.
 
2013-04-11 10:26:35 AM

Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.


This is the only important part - and on this we agree.

When people start organizing together, reading books about how God doesn't exist, holding meetings together on that subject in a place devoted to that belief, trying to convince others that what they believe true, going around on the Internet saying they hope that religion will be declared a mental illness, and use symbols to describe their collective lack of belief. . .then you've gone Atheist.

Yeah, sure, whatever. You can call "atheism" a religion, a rock band, or a motorcycle gang for all I care - that argument is for stupid people to waste time on. Even if I self-identified as an "atheist", I wouldn't care what somebody else called it.
 
2013-04-11 10:27:00 AM

stonicus: Silverstaff: We have an Establishment Clause, Free Exercise and No Religious Test clauses in our Constitution for a reason, because our nation was founded by people who came here and wanted to worship as they chose without being told how to by others and our Founding Fathers were largely deists. The government should be completely silent on the issue of religion, neither endorsing any definition of God nor denying any specific definition.

Sadly, many interpret this to mean that you do in fact need to be worshipping something.


It could also be argued that a lot of people came to this country to escape the oppression of State Religions. Russians came to the United States by the tens of thousands in the 1870s and 1880s because the State religion was a primary instrument of the Czarists to maintain serfdom. Chinese came to the United States because the State religion was a primary instrument that maintained their Emperors rule.

On the flipside, the Puritans came to North America because they had been more or less thrown out of England for their constant subversion of parliamentary rule after their extremist Calvinism conflicted with the milder form of Christianity represented by the Anglican Church, who tolerated Catholicism to some degree, especially after the English Restoration in 1660.
 
2013-04-11 10:28:29 AM

Silverstaff: Karac: Silverstaff: Why the hell is it that when I call atheists on their derp, on their acting like they are religious while doing all the things that religions do, I get called a troll?

Maybe because I've yet to see an atheist tell me that my gay buddies aren't allowed to get so much as a second-class civil union OR tell me that I can't go to Walmart and buy a hammer after getting out of church on Sunday because it's not 1:30 in the afternoon yet.

Even the most militant atheists I've ever seen are only calling on the government to live up to it's own promise of not establishing a state religion.

What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.  I've encountered a lot of atheists on the web who say that belief in God should be considered a mental illness and they hope one day to have a cure for it, to make people stop believing in God and become an Atheist.  That's every bit as evangelizing as those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, or the Southern Baptists who scream that you're going to hell.

What about atheists who filed lawsuits against the Federal Government because astronauts were so moved by the sight of the Earth from space that they spontaneously said a prayer out loud, and wanted Astronauts from being banned from prayer during spaceflight?  Madeline Murray O'Hare did that one back in the Apollo era.

As for militant atheists, if you'll check that link I posted, back in the 1920's through 1940's there was indeed a "League of Militant Atheists" who went around demolishing churches, imprisoning clergy, and working towards an avowed goal of the eradication of all religion.  Yes, they were an arm of the government of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean they were not atheists who were militant to the desire to crush theism and oppress people because they believed differently.


Most of that sounds like backlash for centuries of Christians trying to shove their beliefs and way of life down everyone else's throats.

As far as religious folks possibly being mentally ill goes, there's a strange phenomenon that happens when some religious people start talking about God; they get this strange look in their eyes, and their voice gets slow and steady, either like A) they've been brainwashed and are spouting out a pre-recorded message, B) they're trying to hypnotize you, or C) possibly both. This is probably part of the reason some atheists think religious people are crazy. (to be fair, it's probably an adrenal reaction that comes from talking about something that's exciting and important, but that usually makes people talk quickly, not slow and steady...)

Not to mention the sever cognitive dissonance necessary to decry one religion as terrorism and that it shouldn't be allowed, then in the next sentence saying we need to "protect our religious freedoms". Which is what this whole thread is about. It's hard to play the "atheists are bad and think we're all crazy" card when the topic of discussion is about a christian who thinks the first amendment doesn't apply to her and her state, then turns around and absolutely proves why the "no establishment" clause is necessary, and is none the wiser.
 
2013-04-11 10:29:41 AM

mike_d85: NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?

This.

/South Carolinian


I am so sorry. And please stop crossing the imaginary line into Charlotte. All of you drive like shiat. Thank you.
 
2013-04-11 10:29:52 AM
scottydoesntknow:The only "religious freedom" you want is the freedom to get rid of every other religion except yours, you coont.

Bears repeating.jpg
 
2013-04-11 10:30:18 AM

stonicus: Langdon_777: Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum

Hehe.

Oh don't mistake me, I believe all life is divine, that there is ever so much more to what we perceive than we will ever understand - I am just not willing to let another human being and their believes get between me and Infinity/Divinity.  There are some things that are only between oneself and the UBER-BIG-NOT-ONESELF   ;)

Even cancer cells?


Alas yes.

As a general rule the cancer cells that are in ALL of our bodies do not try to take over, its when they go insane that problems happen :(
 
2013-04-11 10:32:29 AM

2wolves: Goes to Callista Gringrich's hair dresser.


And then doesn't sit straight in the chair.
 
2013-04-11 10:35:42 AM

Somacandra: spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.
[i.imgur.com image 344x270]
Roman Catholics strangling and roasting Dutch Mennonites in 1554.
[i.imgur.com image 280x375]French Protestants liberating the entrails of Catholics in 1607.
Yeah....we've seen that movie before and *Spoiler Alert*: It doesn't end well.


Led to some pretty good games, though.
bigboardgames.net
cf.geekdo-images.com
/hot as Henry VIII's wives' pregnancy chart
 
2013-04-11 10:36:03 AM

Crabs_Can_Polevault: 2wolves: Goes to Callista Gringrich's hair dresser.

And then doesn't sit straight in the chair.


And constantly fidgets and chatters like a 13 year old cheerleader on bath salts.
 
2013-04-11 10:38:01 AM

catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?



Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.
 
2013-04-11 10:40:28 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

When presented with a binary option (Is there at least one higher power that can be considered god-like?), the atheists look at existing observations and believe that there is no further explanation. Theists look at the same observations and believe that a higher authority is responsible for the complexity of life. Both are equally supported by philosophy. Atheists simply believe that the null hypothesis (ie no evidence suggesting a god has interacted with creation) is the standard. It's not a religion.

There. Now that's settled. We can stay on the topic of making fun of North Carolina.


More specifically, atheism and religion are both life stances.
 
2013-04-11 10:40:58 AM

ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.


I agree, can we start throwing them out of office when they go against the constitution? Or is that just for republicans? If the former, we can start with everyone who is trying to infringe on teh 2nd.
 
2013-04-11 10:42:58 AM

utharda: log_jammin: Karac: One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"

OMG....that is simply an awesome idea!

I think the Latin would probably do the job.

for the record,

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;adveniat Regnum Tuum;fiat voluntas Tua,sicut in caelo, et in terra.Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;et dimitte nobis debita nostra,sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;et ne nos inducas in tentationem;sed libera nos a Malo.Amen.


The problem with using Latin is that you might have someone in the audience who was Catholic (admittedly a small chance where I live in South Carolina), or who would recognize the language and cadence.  By going to a language with a lot of phlegm in it you would make most of them assume you were speaking Muslim.  Plus, by using the Aramaic you could honesty say to a reporter "What would Jesus do?  Apparently he'd get his ass thrown out of a PTA meeting."
 
2013-04-11 10:46:55 AM

ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.


I don't think we want to start down that road. Running for office is a fundamental right, and we don't want to start trying to take it away from people who aren't as passionate as we are about what we think the Constitution says.
 
2013-04-11 10:47:15 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.



Do you have a different word that you use to describe the "lack any kind of belief system " other than atheism?

Everyone is an atheist when they are born. I suspect that you, along with most other religious people, were not old enough to remember when you converted from atheism to religion.
 
2013-04-11 10:47:59 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: Somacandra: spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.
[i.imgur.com image 344x270]
Roman Catholics strangling and roasting Dutch Mennonites in 1554.
[i.imgur.com image 280x375]French Protestants liberating the entrails of Catholics in 1607.
Yeah....we've seen that movie before and *Spoiler Alert*: It doesn't end well.

Led to some pretty good games, though.
[bigboardgames.net image 666x882]
[cf.geekdo-images.com image 370x500]
/hot as Henry VIII's wives' pregnancy chart


how "dare" you.
 
2013-04-11 10:49:29 AM

Thunderboy: hinten: You know which country acknowledges Christian religion in their constitutional preamble?
You know which country opts-in its citizen into a Christian church tax via the federal income tax process?
You know which country offers 1h minimum in religion class per week in public schools?


Now ask yourself, which country has more overzealous Christians than the country in the questions above?

I was told there would be no math religion.


Math is a religion.

/Off to file tax free status for my Church of Math.
//Maybe Church of empirical data.
 
2013-04-11 10:52:06 AM

Joe Blowme: Langdon_777: She (and this thread) probably need to watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/cern-physicist-tom-whynti e- explains-the-universe-for-beginners/story-fn5fsgyc-1226618422049

So where did all that energy come from? Was it always there? Did zeus put it there? Who put zeus there?
Im going with Thor having a temper tantrum


We don't know. More importantly, it is unlikely that we will ever have any way of knowing. That doesn't mean we need to invent a deity to create it.

And as an atheist, don't have any problem with theists who say "God created the energy". Fine. I can't disprove that. I don't choose to believe it, but if someone wants to it's no biggie.

The problem is when they go on to describe a bunch of other things that God does that are provably false, and then try to dictate how I should live my life on the basis of their belief system.
 
2013-04-11 10:52:15 AM

spongeboob: /shouldn't it be Best Carolina


Do you really want to get into an argument about which Carolina is worse?
 
2013-04-11 10:57:57 AM

ciberido: More specifically, atheism and religion are both life stances.


From your own link there can be 'life stances' based on atheism.

A lack of a belief is nothing more than that. Some people take it further ... the actions of these people do not change the base definition.
 
2013-04-11 11:00:59 AM
The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion."

OK guys, you have a month. Everyone who wants to be a part of the US needs to make plans to move out of NC. They want to be "sovereign", then they can be that way as a separate country entirely. The bonus is that you aren't completely surrounded by the US, AND you get some coastline. Other states that are trying to play the "sovereign" card aren't so lucky.

How's that?
 
2013-04-11 11:04:13 AM

Robert Farker: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


Do you have a different word that you use to describe the "lack any kind of belief system " other than atheism?

Everyone is an atheist when they are born. I suspect that you, along with most other religious people, were not old enough to remember when you converted from atheism to religion.


But if I believe god doesn't exist, that's a belief system, and now I'm not an atheist.  Wordplay is fun!

/don't believe in god
//don't care what word people want to use to define that
 
2013-04-11 11:08:32 AM

ciberido: spongeboob: /shouldn't it be Best Carolina

Do you really want to get into an argument about which Carolina is worse?


Oh, the southern one is undoubtedly worse.
 
2013-04-11 11:12:33 AM

Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


Okay, I think I see the problem here:

You are thinking that gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists are the same thing.

Agnostic Atheists do not accept the evidence presented to date for the existence of God. They do not claim to know of God's nonexistence.

Gnostic Atheists claim that that they know that God does not exist.

The biggest point of confusion is this. Most Atheists are Agnostic for some definitions of God, and Gnostic for others.

For example, if you tell me that there was a God that created the universe by starting off the Big Bang, I'm agnostic on that point. But if you tell me that the Christian God exists as described by the Bible, then I know that's not true. I'm a Gnostic Atheist toward the Christian God.
 
2013-04-11 11:20:48 AM

jso2897: He's trying to establish, I think, that if government is silent on the subject of religion, it is violating the first amendment, because atheism is a religion, or something. I don't know, because he won't say.


No I'm not.  I NEVER said that.  Where did I say that?  In any post I've ever made on Fark?  Try reading my posts instead of just assuming I'm some fundamentalist strawman to knock down.

I think the government should be completely silent on the issue of religion.  We have the Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause and No Religious Test clauses in the US Constitution for a reason.

If it was actively saying there was no God, and that people shouldn't believe in God and are wrong to do so, and making it so that it was official government policy that people who believed in God were deluded and mentally ill, then it would be endorsing Atheism.

All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.
 
2013-04-11 11:25:02 AM

Joe Blowme: I agree, can we start throwing them out of office when they go against the constitution? Or is that just for republicans? If the former, we can start with everyone who is trying to infringe on teh 2nd.


There's room for reasonable debate about the meaning of particular parts of the Constitution. Whether you agree or disagree about their rationales is totally within the normal scope of politics.

However, people who argue their state doesn't have to follow the US Constitution are at least grossly incompetent and should be voted out of office.

Now, let's take a look at the North Carolina State Constitution:

Article I, Sec. 5.  Allegiance to the United States.

Every citizen of this State owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States, and no law or ordinance of the State in contravention or subversion thereof can have any binding force.


Article III, Sec. 4.  Oath of office for Governor.

The Governor, before entering upon the duties of his office, shall, before any Justice of the Supreme Court, take an oath or affirmation that he will support the Constitution and laws of the United States and of the State of North Carolina, and that he will faithfully perform the duties pertaining to the office of governor.

Now, by my read, she has broken her oath of office. She should be impeached, convicted and removed from office.
 
2013-04-11 11:25:35 AM
cdn.uproxx.com

I'd convert.
 
2013-04-11 11:26:40 AM

stonicus: Robert Farker: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


Do you have a different word that you use to describe the "lack any kind of belief system " other than atheism?

Everyone is an atheist when they are born. I suspect that you, along with most other religious people, were not old enough to remember when you converted from atheism to religion.

But if I believe god doesn't exist, that's a belief system, and now I'm not an atheist.  Wordplay is fun!

/don't believe in god
//don't care what word people want to use to define that


I don't believe God does exist.
I do believe God doesn't exist.

Which one is a religion?
 
2013-04-11 11:31:04 AM

spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.


What is this Atheism you speak of?

I worship the flying spaghetti monster.

Ramen
 
2013-04-11 11:31:16 AM

Silverstaff: All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.


I and several others have attempted to explain why this is incorrect.

There is no "atheist lifestyle". There are no "ceremonies and rites" for atheism. Knowing that a particular definition of God that some theist holds is provably false is not the same as believing in a particular God.

Still don't get it? Explain to me how, under your definition of religion, are the GOP and Democratic Party not religions?
 
2013-04-11 11:32:56 AM

Silverstaff: jso2897: He's trying to establish, I think, that if government is silent on the subject of religion, it is violating the first amendment, because atheism is a religion, or something. I don't know, because he won't say.

No I'm not.  I NEVER said that.  Where did I say that?  In any post I've ever made on Fark?  Try reading my posts instead of just assuming I'm some fundamentalist strawman to knock down.

I think the government should be completely silent on the issue of religion.  We have the Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause and No Religious Test clauses in the US Constitution for a reason.

If it was actively saying there was no God, and that people shouldn't believe in God and are wrong to do so, and making it so that it was official government policy that people who believed in God were deluded and mentally ill, then it would be endorsing Atheism.

All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.


Smarter people than you have tried to show that atheism was a religion and they have failed.

1) atheism requires no faith
2) atheism has no ritual
3) atheism has no leader or church
 
2013-04-11 11:33:02 AM

stonicus: She makes me ashamed to live in NC.  =(


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-04-11 11:35:51 AM

CapeFearCadaver: stonicus: She makes me ashamed to live in NC.  =(

[i2.kym-cdn.com image 444x556]


Yep
 
2013-04-11 11:40:54 AM
Mr. Cat Poop:
I don't believe God does exist.
I do believe God doesn't exist.

Which one is a religion?


Well, the first has absolutely no elements of a religion.

The second depends on what you mean by "God".

- Are you talking about a specific definition of God that is counter to observable reality? The no, that's just science, not religion.

- Are you categorically denying all possible definitions of metaphysical beings outside our universe? Well, then maybe. You certainly have the belief in something based on faith that is required for religion. However most definitions of religion talk about it being the belief in a superhuman controlling power, God or gods. So even then it's a stretch to call your believe a religion.
 
2013-04-11 11:42:17 AM

kronicfeld: spongeboob: I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion. I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Is that like "admitting" that rain falls up?


It's like admitting that raaaaaaaaa-in falls up on your wedding day.
 
2013-04-11 11:42:22 AM

TheGogmagog: Thunderboy: hinten: You know which country acknowledges Christian religion in their constitutional preamble?
You know which country opts-in its citizen into a Christian church tax via the federal income tax process?
You know which country offers 1h minimum in religion class per week in public schools?


Now ask yourself, which country has more overzealous Christians than the country in the questions above?

I was told there would be no math religion.

Math is a religion.

/Off to file tax free status for my Church of Math.
//Maybe Church of empirical data.


Presumably Carol Vorderman would have to be high priestess of the Church of Math
 
2013-04-11 11:43:11 AM
Since this conversation has gone a askew, I would like to remind everyone that an elected official wants to bar a specific religion's prayer in the name of religious freedom.

You couldn't make this shat up.
 
2013-04-11 11:45:28 AM

Zasteva: All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.


One more try...

If I adopt the trappings of Catholic priest, does that make me one? What about if I know all the words to the mass and steal the robes and eucharist from a real Catholic church?

If I adopt the trappings of a policeman, does that make me one? What about if I get all the right equipment and go through the same training?
 
2013-04-11 11:54:10 AM

Zasteva: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.

Okay, I think I see the problem here:

You are thinking that gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists are the same thing.

Agnostic Atheists do not accept the evidence presented to date for the existence of God. They do not claim to know of God's nonexistence.

Gnostic Atheists claim that that they know that God does not exist.

The biggest point of confusion is this. Most Atheists are Agnostic for some definitions of God, and Gnostic for others.

For example, if you tell me that there was a God that created the universe by starting off the Big Bang, I'm agnostic on that point. But if you tell me that the Christian God exists as described by the Bible, then I know that's not true. I'm a Gnostic Atheist toward the Christian God.


Yeah, I think we're working under some different beliefs.

When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.   I used to not even care about this, but the steady stream of annoying people on the Internet telling me that I am mentally ill/immature/bad person for not being an Atheist has pretty steadily soured me on them.  Every time I see atheists adopting trappings of religion (church services, symbols) to describe their relationship with the divine (i.e. active disbelief).

It's like a guy I went to Basic Training with, who when it was Sunday morning and we all had the option of going to Church for 1 hour, he said his religion was Atheist so he demanded 1 hour to read his copy of The God Delusion.  We were all allowed one religious text, he kept Dawkins book in his wall locker under the "Religious Book" rule.  When we were allowed a moment of prayer before meals, he would recite the order of the planets or start to recite the periodic table when others were saying Christian prayers.  As the first person I had to deal with in my life, out there in the real word, who was openly atheist, he certainly made a point of replacing everything religious with an atheist equivalent.

Funny thing is, I've got a lot of problems with Christian theology, and my own personal beliefs are somewhat close to what you'd call agnostic up there, that I believe there is some kind of deity that created the universe and sits above everything but I'm pretty fuzzy on the details and I'm not really saying he's going around performing miracles every day and that He somehow revealed himself to some Semitic tribes in antiquity and only through passed down b

Oh, and Zasteva, I missed your earlier post about the motivations and the apology for the snark relating to the middle ages.  I wanted to thank you for that.  Yes, I do what I do, out in the real world, because I want to help people.  I'm not out to convert anybody to any belief system, believe or don't believe, just follow Wheaton's Law and Don't Be a Dick about it.  A lot of Atheists are being dicks, and doing so in the exact same style as theistic fundamentalists.  That's what my problem really is with.

I don't believe that theism is inherently destructive though.  It certainly can be, part of why I no longer consider myself Christian came from what happened when I started asking too many theological questions at the Southern Baptist church I grew up at.  On the other hand, I've seen some wonderful things happen in the world because of faith-based communities and activity.  Any belief system can be taken too far.  You don't want to be called a religion, okay, I can actually understand that, but a significant number of Atheists are going around acting like it is a religion while also denying that
 
2013-04-11 11:55:50 AM
BTW, in case it hasn't been posted yet, here's the email exchange in question.
 
2013-04-11 11:57:31 AM

Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.


We all understand that you are intentionally misusing the word "Atheist". We just want to know why.
 
2013-04-11 11:57:44 AM

impaler: Since this conversation has gone a askew, I would like to remind everyone that an elected official wants to bar a specific religion's prayer in the name of religious freedom.

You couldn't make this shat up.


The funny part is that she honestly, truly, does not comprehend the innate hypocrisy of her statements, because, after all, only her religion is the One True Religion. She is what you get when you have mindless belief without critical thinking.

And she's an elected official. A majority of folks in her constituency said, "yes, that's what we need - a conservative Christian moron!"
 
2013-04-11 11:58:39 AM

Silverstaff: Zasteva: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.

Okay, I think I see the problem here:

You are thinking that gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists are the same thing.

Agnostic Atheists do not accept the evidence presented to date for the existence of God. They do not claim to know of God's nonexistence.

Gnostic Atheists claim that that they know that God does not exist.

The biggest point of confusion is this. Most Atheists are Agnostic for some definitions of God, and Gnostic for others.

For example, if you tell me that there was a God that created the universe by starting off the Big Bang, I'm agnostic on that point. But if you tell me that the Christian God exists as described by the Bible, then I know that's not true. I'm a Gnostic Atheist toward the Christian God.

Yeah, I think we're working under some different beliefs.

When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.   I used to not even care about this, but the steady stream of annoying people on the Internet telling me that I am mentally ill/immature/bad person for not being an Atheist has pretty steadily soured me on them.  Every time I see atheists adopting trappings of religion (church services, symbols) to describe their relationship with the divine (i.e. active disbelief).

It's like a guy I went to Basic Training with, who when it was Sunday morning and we all had the option of going to Church for 1 hour, he said his religion was Atheist so he demanded 1 hour to read his copy of The God Delusion.  We were all allowed one religious text, he kept Dawkins book in his wall locker under the "Religious Book" rule.  When we were allowed a moment of prayer before meals, he would recite the order of the planets or start to recite the periodic table when others were saying Christi ...


Toss in ignosticism, and watch the fun! I'm an ignostic.
 
2013-04-11 12:03:09 PM

Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.


And here, we find one of the chief roadblocks to this discussion. Assuming both parties are willing to have a discussion, it seems it is incredibly difficult for religious folks in general to divorce a person's actions from his/her belief system. Their general concept is that everything they do proceeds from their religion, and they therefore tend to assume the same is true of others. I am in the atheist/agnostic camp (in central North Carolina, btw), but I can tell you there is very little I do that is done because of my belief or lack thereof - in fact, about the only thing that is thereby motivated is my desire to question believers, and even that is done out of a wish to understand rather than a desire to 'win someone over'.
 
2013-04-11 12:03:13 PM

UNC_Samurai: "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."


Leave it to a bunch of puritans to try to convince us all that opium is a bad thing. If beer is proof that God loves us, opium is proof that God is so incredibly horny for us that he'll occasionally stoop to slipping us a mickey.
 
2013-04-11 12:07:47 PM

Silverstaff: All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.


So you would consider that Apple Inc is a religion then?

-trying to evangelize other? check
-believing that others are inherently wrong? check
-using symbols to sum up beliefs? check
-public meetings? check
-ceremonies and rites, like the annual line-up outside the Apple store? check

As an added bonus - Apple also passes around the collection plate and has a central god-like leader.
 
2013-04-11 12:10:35 PM

Silverstaff: believe or don't believe, just follow Wheaton's Law and Don't Be a Dick about it.


If you are going to got through the trouble of creating an imaginary atheist who is acting like a dick you might want to imagine some behavior that actually makes him seem like dick. Your pretend atheist didn't do a damn thing wrong by pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of giving the religious special privileges. We don't give special privileges to people who hear voices or believe in aliens or any other beliefs without evidence unless they combine those beliefs with ritual that is equally nonsensical at which point they get put into a sphere of human behavior that we can't criticize. The world shouldn't work like that.
 
2013-04-11 12:11:41 PM

sinanju: mamoru: lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?

I've lived in and visited a few countries around the world, and so far I have to say that, as an atheist, Japan has been the most comfortable for my lack of belief. This is having lived in the US (various places all over the east coast), Japan, Morocco, and now Thailand, as well as visiting England, France, Spain, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The only country I've lived in where anyone has made an issue of my lack of belief, trying to "save" me or damning me to hell, was the USA. Even in Morocco, a Muslim country, no one really cared that I was an atheist. I had several conversations that went something like this:

Moroccan: "Can I ask, are you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. I'm not religious."
Moroccan: "Ever thought about converting to Islam?"
Me: "Nope."
Moroccan: "Do you believe in God?"
Me: "Nope. Sorry." (expecting that it might bother that person)
Moroccan: "Ah, no problem. So... hungry?"
Me: "Sure. I could use something to eat."
Moroccan: "Me, too. Let's go get some food."

But I digress.

There may be places better than Japan for an atheist to live, but if you like Japanese food, modern conveniences, great public transport, Japanese women, etc. or are interested in Japanese culture, then I highly recommend it. ;)

It's your Moroccan friend's duty to ask.  I've had exactly the same conversation with a commuter train buddy who's Muslim.  I forget which surah mentions it.


That seems odd. Maybe it depends on where you are, but in my experience of the region, asking a guest in your home about religion or politics is only slightly less rude than shiatting in their handbag.
 
2013-04-11 12:14:41 PM

Deathfrogg: On the flipside, the Puritans came to North America because they had been more or less thrown out of England for their constant subversion of parliamentary rule after their extremist Calvinism conflicted with the milder form of Christianity represented by the Anglican Church, who tolerated Catholicism to some degree, especially after the English Restoration in 1660.


There is so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin.
 
2013-04-11 12:15:12 PM

UNC_Samurai: "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."


Bear in mind that this was before modern anesthetics. Opium had a legitimate and necessary medical use.
 
2013-04-11 12:19:08 PM

This About That: I especially like the part where, in a very few sentences she says "We just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom or it will be whisked away from us." seconds after she said that allowing Muslim prayer is supporting terrorism. Have legislators always been this ignorant, or is it just because of the Internet that we hear about it?



No, no, it makes perfect sense, so long as you understand that "freedom" is being used in that sentence to mean "the power to enforce our beliefs about religion on everybody else who lives here."
 
kgf
2013-04-11 12:23:30 PM
"We must lift the ban on MY religion in public places"

There, fixed that for her.
 
2013-04-11 12:24:21 PM
Surprise, surprise. She's also one of those "rape babies are gifts from Gods" type of Repubs. Also believes that if the mother's pregnancy is endagering her life, well then, the mother should die, too.
 
2013-04-11 12:30:04 PM

NewportBarGuy: How the f*ck are these people not bagging sh*t at a CVS cash register?


Because CVS requires a minimum level of intelligence.
 
2013-04-11 12:34:18 PM

lucksi: Is there any country where I can get some freedom FROM religion?


The United States.... technically ...
 
2013-04-11 12:36:42 PM

Hickory-smoked: That seems odd. Maybe it depends on where you are, but in my experience of the region, asking a guest in your home about religion or politics is only slightly less rude than shiatting in their handbag.


That's true in the US, where we are accustomed to living side-by-side with people who may have radically different views than we do.

But in many other countries, polite curiosity about a guest is a sign of respect. And in a country where most people never encounter someone from another religion, their curiosity is natural.

And, of course, there are always intellectuals in every place who are fascinated by ideas, and don't take things so personally, so they enjoy a good debate about something over a meal or a beer.

Never been to Morocco, but the Moroccan's I met in Spain seemed like pretty courteous people by nature.
 
2013-04-11 12:50:23 PM

UNC_Samurai: Pants full of macaroni!!: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were athier than just about anybody!

ohlookit'sthisshiatagain.jpg


That's all well and good, but my lame-ass comment was directed at his misspelling.
 
2013-04-11 12:52:34 PM
She looks like Gary Busey in drag.
 
2013-04-11 12:53:15 PM
Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand
 
2013-04-11 12:58:12 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand


Is that supposed to be an argument in favor of making Christianity an official state religion? Because that is what this woman wishes to do.
 
2013-04-11 01:01:00 PM

Silverstaff: jso2897: He's trying to establish, I think, that if government is silent on the subject of religion, it is violating the first amendment, because atheism is a religion, or something. I don't know, because he won't say.

No I'm not.  I NEVER said that.  Where did I say that?  In any post I've ever made on Fark?  Try reading my posts instead of just assuming I'm some fundamentalist strawman to knock down.

I think the government should be completely silent on the issue of religion.  We have the Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause and No Religious Test clauses in the US Constitution for a reason.

If it was actively saying there was no God, and that people shouldn't believe in God and are wrong to do so, and making it so that it was official government policy that people who believed in God were deluded and mentally ill, then it would be endorsing Atheism.

All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.


I don't care if you want to call atheism a religion. I've been saying that this whole thread. Saying atheism is a religion is not an argument against the state remaining silent on the subject of religion. It is not an argument in favor of passing the sort of laws this woman wishes to pass. That is all.
 
2013-04-11 01:01:59 PM

madgonad: So you would consider that Apple Inc is a religion then?

-trying to evangelize other? check
-believing that others are inherently wrong? check
-using symbols to sum up beliefs? check
-public meetings? check
-ceremonies and rites, like the annual line-up outside the Apple store? check

As an added bonus - Apple also passes around the collection plate and has a central god-like leader.


According to DoodleGod -  Apple+computer=religion
 
2013-04-11 01:03:39 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand


Thanks for the view from the holler.  Now sell me some cracklins
 
2013-04-11 01:06:34 PM

Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.


Oh, FFS.
 
2013-04-11 01:09:01 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Islam = Terror

learn how to pray while you kneel if you don't understand


Too silly.
 
2013-04-11 01:12:35 PM

BSABSVR: Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.

Oh, FFS.


That's why it's a child's argument, and stupid to engage with. That's why, when somebody says "atheism is a religion". I just respond "OK. So what?" They are trolling you - not arguing any point that actually matters.
This stupid hick woman wants to establish Christianity as an official state religion - all the trolling about "Islam is terrorism" or "atheism is a religion" just serves to deflect from that issue. Actually, if both those things are true, it is all the more reason that the government should remain silent on the subject of religion, and that they should not be conducting religious ceremonies or displays on the taxpayer dime.
 
2013-04-11 01:12:43 PM
"America is all about speed.  Hot nasty speed"   -The Dalai Lama
 
2013-04-11 01:22:18 PM

Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.


You're wrong.   Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods.  Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist.  And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.
 
2013-04-11 01:28:00 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: UNC_Samurai: Pants full of macaroni!!: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were athier than just about anybody!

ohlookit'sthisshiatagain.jpg

That's all well and good, but my lame-ass comment was directed at his misspelling.


Oh, I had no quarrel with you, I was taking shots at the insipid line of thinking you were responding to.  It was easier to link to your post than hunt for his upthread.
 
2013-04-11 01:31:15 PM
NC is largely boned for the next at least the 5-10 years. Ignorant biblethumpers in the western mountains and eastern coast outnumber sane folks for the time being and they breed like rabbits. Note that aside from some tourism monies (much of which are at the behest of National and state properties) both east and west NC contribute absolutely dick to the NC economy and knowledge base. They're basically a bunch of farking leaches that biatch if their evil gubment check is late by a day.

Honestly, I <almost> hope NC goes full bore Oklahoma and Mississippi levels of republican derp for a few years. These ignorant leeches need to suffer, and suffer greatly, for putting the GOP teabaggers into power. Basically, fark you, I got mine, enjoy eating catfood for a decade, and get back to me once you put 2+2 together.
 
2013-04-11 01:38:09 PM

ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


Atheism is not the certainty that gods do not exist. It's the belief that gods do not exist. That breaks down into gnostic atheists, who do in fact claim to know that gods don't exist, and agnostic atheists who don't claim to know it, but just don't believe they do. Same as gnostic theists who claim to know god does exist and agnostic theists who don't claim to know it, but believe it.

Agnosticism is the belief that whether gods exists or not is not just unknown, but unknowable.
 
2013-04-11 01:41:48 PM

Johnny Swank: NC is largely boned for the next at least the 5-10 years. Ignorant biblethumpers in the western mountains and eastern coast outnumber sane folks for the time being and they breed like rabbits. Note that aside from some tourism monies (much of which are at the behest of National and state properties) both east and west NC contribute absolutely dick to the NC economy and knowledge base. They're basically a bunch of farking leaches that biatch if their evil gubment check is late by a day.

Honestly, I <almost> hope NC goes full bore Oklahoma and Mississippi levels of republican derp for a few years. These ignorant leeches need to suffer, and suffer greatly, for putting the GOP teabaggers into power. Basically, fark you, I got mine, enjoy eating catfood for a decade, and get back to me once you put 2+2 together.


They don't believe in algebra.
 
2013-04-11 01:46:41 PM

Gunslinger013: spongeboob: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

I guess in order to allow that, atheist would have to admit that atheism is a religion.  I don't think any atheist will admit that.

Just like not collecting stamps is a hobbie.


But writing books about not collecting stamps, and going to conventions about not collecting stamps, and calling stamp collectors "primitive farks with bones in their noses" kinda IS a hobby.
 
2013-04-11 01:48:05 PM
Okay. I think I understand the argument:

Any thought/action that one has/does that may coincide with another having/doing the same thought/action = religion. Sports fan? Religion. Volunteer in your community? Religion. Support a candidate for office? Religion. Member of a police or sheriff's department? You bet that's a religion.

Anybody that believes anything is clearly religious whether they admit it or not.
 
2013-04-11 01:53:39 PM

Deathfrogg: Except that Atheists recognized that Madeline Murray O'Hair was a nut decades ago. You folks still hang on every word uttered by people like Pat Robertson, Kent Hovind, Rick Warren and Ken Hamm.


I don't think she's a nut. She was an activist, at a time when no one even talked about atheism.  I may disagree with her politics, but I appreciate the what she's done for the rights of atheists like me.
 
2013-04-11 02:00:08 PM

Mr. Cat Poop: stonicus: Robert Farker: Silverstaff: Just like somebody who has never been exposed to religion in their life is not an atheist, they just lack any kind of belief system.


Do you have a different word that you use to describe the "lack any kind of belief system " other than atheism?

Everyone is an atheist when they are born. I suspect that you, along with most other religious people, were not old enough to remember when you converted from atheism to religion.

But if I believe god doesn't exist, that's a belief system, and now I'm not an atheist.  Wordplay is fun!

/don't believe in god
//don't care what word people want to use to define that

I don't believe God does exist.
I do believe God doesn't exist.

Which one is a religion?


The first one.  The second one.  Both.  Neither.
I don't care what word you use, doesn't change how I view the universe.
You can call anything a religion if you wish, just the broader you make the word fit things the less meaning it has.
 
2013-04-11 02:00:28 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Okay. I think I understand the argument:

Any thought/action that one has/does that may coincide with another having/doing the same thought/action = religion. Sports fan? Religion. Volunteer in your community? Religion. Support a candidate for office? Religion. Member of a police or sheriff's department? You bet that's a religion.

Anybody that believes anything is clearly religious whether they admit it or not.


I believe I'll have a beer....
 
2013-04-11 02:11:54 PM

ciberido: But writing books about not collecting stamps, and going to conventions about not collecting stamps, and calling stamp collectors "primitive farks with bones in their noses" kinda IS a hobby.


How many atheists do any of these things? 0.00001%??

By your logic, atheists are part of a religion in exactly the same way as christians are abortion doctor murderers.
 
2013-04-11 02:14:46 PM

Shakin_Haitian: "My taxes are so low!! Why is my child's school so shiatty?"

They're not very good at putting two and two together, either.



Know how I can tell you don't know much about NC?
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=406
 
2013-04-11 02:19:53 PM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion? Stop acting like one. Don't get in other peoples faces about it. Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


Openly expressing an opinion is not the definition of religion.  Openly expressing an opinion is not what atheists criticize religion for doing.  This is like calling vegans "meat eaters" because they get in peoples faces about diet and publicly mock and insult people for what they eat.  It is fine if you have a problem with how some atheists act, but that doesn't mean you can arbitrarily change a label so that it now somehow applies to the people who are actively against the principles of that label.
 
2013-04-11 02:23:47 PM
Ah, this reminds me of those mad old days when videogames were recalled for featuring such controversial things on their soundtracks like Muslim calls to prayer and Qu'ran verses.

/the weird, wooly, wild days of 2005/2007...

AdolfOliverPanties: [i.huffpost.com image 570x238]

And yet she is still somehow uglier on the inside.

/They may be gnarled and yellowed, but she has a full compliment of teeth, unlike most of her constituency.


I can't remember where it's from, but the quote "Aren't people who look like you supposed to have good personalities?" immediately springs to mind.
 
2013-04-11 02:30:47 PM
asyouwatch.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-11 02:33:03 PM

ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


Not sure where you came up with that... Agnostic vs gnostic is an entirely separate issue from atheist vs. theist... The former is a question of knowledge/certainty, while the latter is an issue of belief... What you're describing as "atheism" is really "gnostic atheism"... Most of us are agnostic atheists...

i132.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-11 02:38:57 PM

Silverstaff: Don't want to be called a religion?  Stop acting like one.  Don't get in other peoples faces about it.  Don't publicly mock and insult them because they believe differently.


At least you admit this is what religious people do.
 
2013-04-11 02:43:57 PM

Silverstaff: Sorry, Atheists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion


Um...
 
2013-04-11 02:49:24 PM

RobSeace: ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.

Not sure where you came up with that... Agnostic vs gnostic is an entirely separate issue from atheist vs. theist... The former is a question of knowledge/certainty, while the latter is an issue of belief... What you're describing as "atheism" is really "gnostic atheism"... Most of us are agnostic atheists...

[i132.photobucket.com image 683x660]


I'm a "soft" agnostic.  I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't.  I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable.  I don't map onto those quadrants.  Also, I'm using the term "god" in the broadest sense possible.
 
2013-04-11 02:50:56 PM
Seems like a lot of people are confusing atheists with run-of-the-mill assholes.
 
2013-04-11 03:08:02 PM

Joe Blowme: ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.

I agree, can we start throwing them out of office when they go against the constitution? Or is that just for republicans? If the former, we can start with everyone who is trying to infringe on teh 2nd.


Touché, Joe.

Sure, go ahead.
 
2013-04-11 03:09:46 PM

jso2897: ciberido: catmandu: FTA: "The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." "

Ummmm, isn't accepting the US Constitution a condition of becoming one of the United States?


Yeah, that's the sort of derp that should disqualify them from voting, much less holding an elected position.

I don't think we want to start down that road. Running for office is a fundamental right, and we don't want to start trying to take it away from people who aren't as passionate as we are about what we think the Constitution says.


Does the idea of a  tyranny of the majority really not worry you at all?
 
2013-04-11 03:12:36 PM

Farking Canuck: ciberido: More specifically, atheism and religion are both life stances.

From your own link there can be 'life stances' based on atheism.

A lack of a belief is nothing more than that. Some people take it further ... the actions of these people do not change the base definition.


Atheism is not a lack of belief.  Agnosticism is.  Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?
 
2013-04-11 03:13:05 PM

mrshowrules: I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't. I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable. I don't map onto those quadrants.


I'm not sure how you can fail to map into one of those quadrants... You are obviously on the left agnostic axis... And, unless you actively believe in a god of some sort, I'd say you must also be on the top atheist axis, so you'd be an agnostic atheist as well... It doesn't really make any sense to say "Well I don't believe, but yet I don't not believe either!"... It's just a nonsense position... If you don't believe, you don't believe, simple as that... It's boolean...

I think you're confusing "does not believe any god exists" with an active belief in the non-existence of any gods, rather than merely the lack of active belief in the existence thereof... That would be more accurately stated as "believes no god exists"... Some atheists do indeed actively disbelieve, but that's not a requirement to be an atheist, merely the lack of theistic belief... Strengths of belief and lack thereof also vary among people... Some may very strongly believe no gods exist, while others weakly believe that, while others such as yourself don't really have an opinion at all...
 
2013-04-11 03:20:03 PM

ciberido: Uncle Tractor: abb3w: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Atheism is a belief system, not a religion.

More pedantically, a class of belief systems, including Randite Capitalism and Marxist Communism... neither of which is the Techno-Scientific Progressive Secular Humanist et cetera cluster that's currently prevalent in the West.

You're both wrong. Atheism is the absence of faith in gods. It's not a faith system or a philosophy or ideology or anything else.

You're wrong.   Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods.  Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist.  And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.


The concept of life stance is an interesting one.  If you approach it honestly, I doubt many people who claim to be religious have their faith at the core of their life stance.   Just based on wiki explanation of it.

I've evolved from a devout Catholic, to a lapsed Catholic, to a "soft" agnostic but at none of those periods in my life would I have pointed to those particular characteristics as my life stance.
 
2013-04-11 03:20:49 PM

ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?


I really don't understand where you're getting that from... You've been one of my faves for a while, but you're just plain wrong here, ciberido... Agnosticism doesn't have anything to do wtih belief, but only with knowledge... Atheism has only to do with belief, not knowledge...

Link
 
2013-04-11 03:24:29 PM

Silverstaff: When I say "Atheist" I'm meaning the people who go out and try to actively convince people there is no such thing as God and that they are bad people for believing this.


I see what you mean, of course. Strident, in-your-face people are just frigging annoying.

That said, atheists have put up a few billboards here and there. They have one radio show in Austin, TX. They occasionally get together in bars to talk about atheism. And there are a few prominent, outspoken atheists who go on talk shows and write books and give lectures. Nobody has to buy the books, listen to the shows, or sit next to them in the bars. Theists might have to see the billboards, but they can be comforted by the far greater prevalence of billboards about Jesus.

And most of the motivation for people to do those things -- write the books, give the lectures, and put up billboards -- is in response to the enormous amount of in-your-face religion out there. Door to door evangelists, billboards warning you about hell, TV channels full of preachers telling you what you must believe, and a legal system favoring religion over atheism in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. At some point one feels compelled to stand up and say "hey, not everybody believes this, quit pretending it's universal truth".

 I used to not even care about this, but the steady stream of annoying people on the Internet telling me that I am mentally ill/immature/bad person for not being an Atheist has pretty steadily soured me on them.  Every time I see atheists adopting trappings of religion (church services, symbols) to describe their relationship with the divine (i.e. active disbelief).

Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses. Branding just shows an attempt at organization. Just because atheists organize (which is rare) doesn't mean they are a religion, or even taking on the trappings of one.

It's like a guy I went to Basic Training with, who when it was Sunday morning and we all had the option of going to Church for 1 hour, he said his religion was Atheist so he demanded 1 hour to read his copy of The God Delusion.  We were all allowed one religious text, he kept Dawkins book in his wall locker under the "Religious Book" rule.  When we were allowed a moment of prayer before meals, he would recite the order of the planets or start to recite the periodic table when others were saying Christian prayers.  As the first person I had to deal with in my life, out there in the real word, who was openly atheist, he certainly made a point of replacing everything religious with an atheist equivalent.

Interesting. It seems like he could have been milking it for the benefits that accrue to the religious -- what would he be doing if he didn't get that hour? Peeling potatoes?

Silverstaff: Yes, I do what I do, out in the real world, because I want to help people.  I'm not out to convert anybody to any belief system, believe or don't believe, just follow Wheaton's Law and Don't Be a Dick about it.  A lot of Atheists are being dicks, and doing so in the exact same style as theistic fundamentalists.  That's what my problem really is with.


Cool. Let's agree that Don't Be a Dick is the important point. From there we can move on to Respect Other's Points of Views (Even While Politely Disagreeing with Them). I think we can all get along fine with that, and then hopefully you'll never have to use your gun.

I don't believe that theism is inherently destructive though. It certainly can be, part of why I no longer consider myself Christian came from what happened when I started asking too many theological questions at the Southern Baptist church I grew up at.  On the other hand, I've seen some wonderful things happen in the world because of faith-based communities and activity.

I used to believe that theism was inherently destructive. I don't any longer. I think part of that was residual reaction to being forced to attend church by my parents long after I had ceased to believe, combined with the hostility I got as a catholic kid at the Southern Baptist private school I attended for a few years.

At this point I have seen, like you, some really great things done by people of faith. I think in most cases they would do those things anyway, but their faith sustained them through trials and dark periods. I don't wish to take that away from anyone.

Theism is only destructive to those people when it leads them in unnatural directions -- self loathing as a sinner when actually you haven't done anything that harms anyone -- especially around issues of sexuality between consenting adults. Or when it leads people to ignore objective reality in favor of something they've been told is true.

Any belief system can be taken too far.  You don't want to be called a religion, okay, I can actually understand that, but a significant number of Atheists are going around acting like it is a religion while also denying that

Thanks. I totally understand what you are saying. I think the way I would express that is that some atheists are behaving the same way they condemn religious people for acting. We should all, as people, try to take the ethical high ground and respond as we wish to be treated, rather than responding in kind. i.e.:, work to create the environment we wish to live in.

Oh, and Zasteva, I missed your earlier post about the motivations and the apology for the snark relating to the middle ages.  I wanted to thank you for that.

No problem. Thanks for this polite and considered response!
 
2013-04-11 03:32:06 PM

ciberido: spongeboob: /shouldn't it be Best Carolina

Do you really want to get into an argument about which Carolina is worse?


I am on Fark of course I have nothing better to do.
 
2013-04-11 03:40:40 PM
God damn it, NC, stop legitimizing the stereotypes about us!
 
2013-04-11 03:43:28 PM

RobSeace: ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?

I really don't understand where you're getting that from... You've been one of my faves for a while, but you're just plain wrong here, ciberido... Agnosticism doesn't have anything to do wtih belief, but only with knowledge... Atheism has only to do with belief, not knowledge...

Link


I suspect it's because the distinction between Gnostic Atheism and Agnostic Atheism is a subtle one most people are not familiar with. It's far more common for people to have heard of Agnosticism as just part of the scale of believe, as in:

Believe in No God = Atheist < Agnostic = Not Sure < Deist = Believe in God but not specific one < Religious Person = Believe in God

As for the distinction between Gnostic Atheism and Agnostic Atheism, I think that also depends on the definition of God. Most atheists would accept the possibility (even if we don't think it's at all likely or choose to waste time believing in it) of a superhuman metaphysical being that created the universe by starting the big bang. Whereas if you talk about the Christian God as specifically described in the Bible, a lot more of us would say that is provably false, and we are therefore Gnostic Atheists with respect to that particular definition of God.
 
2013-04-11 03:48:55 PM

RobSeace: mrshowrules: I don't know or believe if a god exists or doesn't. I don't presume this to be necessarily knowable or unknowable. I don't map onto those quadrants.

I'm not sure how you can fail to map into one of those quadrants... You are obviously on the left agnostic axis... And, unless you actively believe in a god of some sort, I'd say you must also be on the top atheist axis, so you'd be an agnostic atheist as well... It doesn't really make any sense to say "Well I don't believe, but yet I don't not believe either!"... It's just a nonsense position... If you don't believe, you don't believe, simple as that... It's boolean...

I think you're confusing "does not believe any god exists" with an active belief in the non-existence of any gods, rather than merely the lack of active belief in the existence thereof... That would be more accurately stated as "believes no god exists"... Some atheists do indeed actively disbelieve, but that's not a requirement to be an atheist, merely the lack of theistic belief... Strengths of belief and lack thereof also vary among people... Some may very strongly believe no gods exist, while others weakly believe that, while others such as yourself don't really have an opinion at all...


I don't think belief is necessarily a "Boolean" value.   If you ask me if you are married, I will say that I don't know.  That question allows for a valid a neutral value.

Perhaps a Boolean value if you ask a more specific question.  Do you believe Jesus is God, who gave birth to himself and lives in the sky waiting for me in the afterlife, I would say no.  If you take a broadest possible concept of god(s).  It becomes difficult to pose the question and demand a straight yes or no answer.  In the broadest sense the question could be asked "Does life having meaning?"  The possibility of a higher meaning could in itself be interpreted as god.

At some point "I don't know" is more valid/honest than "yes" or "no".

Do you think there is any intelligent life on other planets?  "Yes", "No" or "I don't know" are all valid answers.

If you are more specific, I'm an atheist in all the religions i'm currently know about.  Otherwise, I'm a "I don't know" agnostic.   I plead ignorance but not because I lack courage.  I don't believe in an afterlife.
 
2013-04-11 03:54:30 PM
Our elected officials have lost their farking minds.

/NC native.
//Our state tree should be the facepalm.
 
2013-04-11 03:57:48 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: //Our state tree should be the facepalm.


I don't know if that's an oldie that I've just never seen before, but I love it.
 
2013-04-11 04:26:54 PM

Egoy3k: Crewmannumber6: Mrfusticle: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x598]

So you're not counting Marx, Mao, Lenin and Stalin as athiest extremists?

They were extremists and some of them may have been Atheist (Marx was definitely not an Atheist) but they were not Atheist extremists. Their actions were not a result of extreme in atheism (which is  not really a thing anyway the same as a number more zero than zero isn't a thing) and their goals were not to spread atheism.


I often see people describe Mao's China, Stailin's Soviet Union or Hitler's Germany as athiest states.  It would be wrong IMO to call those states atheist, because their 'theism' was the belief in their leader.
Although they were human, the power they had transcended that of a dictator or king, but bordered on that of a defacto deiety.  China under Mao didn't have atheism as the state religion, but rather the state religion was Maoism.
 
2013-04-11 04:31:07 PM

mrshowrules: I don't think belief is necessarily a "Boolean" value. If you ask me if you are married, I will say that I don't know. That question allows for a valid a neutral value.


That one does, yes, because I'm asking you about the specifics of a real life situation, for which lack of knowledge on your part is a valid cop-out for refusing to answer the question... However, if I instead asked you "Do you believe I am married?", you have all the info you need to know whether or not you believe that... It doesn't matter how certain you are in your belief or lack thereof only whether or not you have it... In the case where you are fully neutral, and don't have any guess one way or the other as to whether or not I'm married, you would be accurate to answer "no" to the "Do you believe?" question, because you don't have an active belief that I'm married... Just because you also don't have an active believe that I'm not married doesn't change that at all...

/Not married, BTW... ;-)

But, answering "I don't know" to a "Do you believe?" question is just kind of bizarre, because it is saying that you have no insight into your own mind and can't determine whether or not you have a particular belief...

Perhaps a Boolean value if you ask a more specific question. Do you believe Jesus is God, who gave birth to himself and lives in the sky waiting for me in the afterlife, I would say no. If you take a broadest possible concept of god(s). It becomes difficult to pose the question and demand a straight yes or no answer. In the broadest sense the question could be asked "Does life having meaning?" The possibility of a higher meaning could in itself be interpreted as god.

At some point "I don't know" is more valid/honest than "yes" or "no".


I understand what you're saying, but "I don't know" isn't actually answering the "Do you believe?" question... It's answering the question about the reality of the situation... If someone asks you "Is there a god?", then "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer... If instead they ask you "Do you believe in a god?", then "I don't know" doesn't make a lot of sense... Unless maybe you've got multiple personality disorder, and can't be sure whether or not some of your personalities might... But, otherwise, surely you know whether or not you have a belief in any kind of god, no matter what form it might take? Saying you don't doesn't mean you're ruling it out or definitely declaring there is no god; it's merely saying you don't have a belief in one right now...
 
2013-04-11 04:38:50 PM

madgonad: Silverstaff: All I've been saying this whole thread is that Atheism is a religion, because it has adopted the trappings of it.  From trying to evangelize others to your beliefs about God while holding that they are inherently wrong for believing what the do, to using symbols to sum up your beliefs, to having books that belief, to holding public meetings about that belief, to holding ceremonies and rites related to that belief.  That isn't just not believing in God, that's a whole lifestyle and belief system advocating that not only is there not a God, that nobody should believe in Him and that must be spread.

So you would consider that Apple Inc is a religion then?

-trying to evangelize other? check
-believing that others are inherently wrong? check
-using symbols to sum up beliefs? check
-public meetings? check
-ceremonies and rites, like the annual line-up outside the Apple store? check

As an added bonus - Apple also passes around the collection plate and has a central god-like leader.


There's a reason that they are sometimes jokingly called the "Cult of Cupertino", because of their almost quasi-religious behavior.  They aren't really a religion, but they do have some superficial resemblances.

Atheism crosses that line into being religion-like (at least frequently enough that claiming that it isn't a religion as an absolute is a problem) because they relate those various religion-like behaviors specifically to the matter of man's interaction with a higher power/divinity.  In this case, to deny it's existence, but it is still all those actions relative to that issue.
 
2013-04-11 04:43:00 PM

Pangea: Summer Glau's Love Slave: //Our state tree should be the facepalm.

I don't know if that's an oldie that I've just never seen before, but I love it.


I second that.

/facepalming NC native
 
2013-04-11 04:44:22 PM

ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief. Agnosticism is. Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?


The proper use of the term agnostic is an adjective describing the "knowability" of a subject (any subject; not just religion). But people have bastardized the term to make it a noun describing a person's position on religion.

The modern (i.e. recently invented) use of the term describes someone who is either a fence sitter between atheist and theist or a person who believes that the existence of god cannot be known. Both of these uses are common but neither is as you describe.

What you are describing is an atheist ... literal translation is a (= without) theism (=god). "Without god" ... or, since we cannot prove the non-existence, the more practical definition is "without belief in god".

But, as I've tried to remind people, it really is irrelevant what name we use for ourselves. The fact is that the vast majority of atheists do not believe in gods but also do not make the positive claim that gods do not or cannot exist. These are the facts ... make up all the names you want but leave your strawmen at home please.
 
2013-04-11 04:48:00 PM

Silverstaff: Atheism A tiny percentage of atheists crosses that line into being religion-like (at least frequently enough that claiming that it isn't a religion as an absolute is a problem) because they relate those various religion-like behaviors specifically to the matter of man's interaction with a higher power/divinity. In this case, to deny it's existence, but it is still all those actions relative to that issue.


You still don't get it do you? You cannot generalize these statements across the millions of people. You are building a strawman ... it is blatantly dishonest.
 
2013-04-11 04:49:20 PM

Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.


Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"
 
2013-04-11 04:51:28 PM

Zasteva: Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses.


Well, as for atheist church services, I gave a link earlier, but I'll repeat it:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ First Church of Atheism, which offers ULC-style free online ordination to Atheist Ministers so they can perform weddings and other clergy-specific functions legally.

So, that's Atheist ordination in addition to Atheist "unbaptism" (Yes, I know most atheists don't do these things, but the fact that some atheist groups explicitly organize themselves as "churches" complete with ministers, ordinations and Sunday-morning services makes it really easy to say that it is a religion to those who want to call it that.  To those who are atheistic without those trappings and don't want to be seen as Atheism-as-a-religion, you might want to do the Jon Stewart thing and let them know that "You're NOT helping.")

The Sunday Assembly A full-service Atheist Church in London, England, using an old Christian church as its premises, complete with the Sunday services implied by its name.

(Some other articles about The Sunday Assembly Atheist Church:
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/atheist-church-huge-success-lo n don-article-1.1257274 Nice article about how popular the Atheist Church is in London.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/events/128 Sunday Assembly services being promoted on Richard Dawkins's website

https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayAssembly  (Their Facebook Page)
 
2013-04-11 04:54:45 PM

Silverstaff: Zasteva: Well, I don't really see "church" services of any kind associated with atheism, and as I mentioned before there are symbols and logos for everything out there from sports teams to software products to businesses.

Well, as for atheist church services, I gave a link earlier, but I'll repeat it:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ First Church of Atheism, which offers ULC-style free online ordination to Atheist Ministers so they can perform weddings and other clergy-specific functions legally.

So, that's Atheist ordination in addition to Atheist "unbaptism" (Yes, I know most atheists don't do these things, but the fact that some atheist groups explicitly organize themselves as "churches" complete with ministers, ordinations and Sunday-morning services makes it really easy to say that it is a religion to those who want to call it that.  To those who are atheistic without those trappings and don't want to be seen as Atheism-as-a-religion, you might want to do the Jon Stewart thing and let them know that "You're NOT helping.")

The Sunday Assembly A full-service Atheist Church in London, England, using an old Christian church as its premises, complete with the Sunday services implied by its name.

(Some other articles about The Sunday Assembly Atheist Church:
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/atheist-church-huge-success-lo n don-article-1.1257274 Nice article about how popular the Atheist Church is in London.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/events/128 Sunday Assembly services being promoted on Richard Dawkins's website

https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayAssembly  (Their Facebook Page)


And you continue to repeat this blatant stupidity.

The total number of people that participated in these events comprises a tiny percentage of atheists. Continuing to suggest that these very few people represent the millions of atheists world-wide is blatant dishonesty.

You are a liar!
 
2013-04-11 05:00:40 PM

neongoats: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.

Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"


When did I say I worshiped mammon, or any specific deity?  I've said it before, go ahead, when have I ever claimed on Fark that I was a worshipper of the God of Abraham/Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus/Allah ect?  I gave up organized, formal religion 16 years ago.

However, look on this very thread for plenty of examples of Atheist bigotry and hatred, and stereotyping.

Just because I have pointed out religious trappings in Atheism as currently practiced, noting that they rise to the definition of being a religion through their practices in how they've turned a simple denial of divinity into something more complicated, I've been:

1. Called a "primitive savage fark", by you.
2. Accused of worshipping mammon, by you.
3. Accused of blindly following Pat Robertson and other evangelists/fundamentalists, by Deathfrogg.
4. Accused of being a troll by many posters.

Just because I've made this argument, without me ever saying anything about being of any Abrahamic belief system.  That's all your own stereotyping and bigotry.  Try cleaning up your own behavior.  Not everybody who is fed up with self-righteous Atheists is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, or of any mainstream religion.

If you keep insulting theists and other insults to religion, and stereotyping everyone of theistic belief as being Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists or "primitive savage farks" as you call it, you're going to be treated like you have an irrational hatred of theists.  Everything you've done in this thread has just backed up and supported my prior opinion of Atheism, you're acting with the same zealotry as a fundie who sees somebody dissing Jesus.
 
2013-04-11 05:19:49 PM

Farking Canuck: And you continue to repeat this blatant stupidity.

The total number of people that participated in these events comprises a tiny percentage of atheists. Continuing to suggest that these very few people represent the millions of atheists world-wide is blatant dishonesty.

You are a liar!


Someone doubted that there were Atheist church services, I provided sources of multiple Atheist churches, including one providing atheistic ordination.

Calling me a liar?  For a belief system built on logic and reason, you sure are getting emotional.  Sure are showing that "we're not really a religion, we're better because we don't have all that religious hatred and irrationality" when you flip out and go berserk on somebody suggesting you're sure acting like it's a religion.

The more you freak out, the more you act with fundamentalist zealotry to say you aren't a religion, the more you act like one.  Realize that the level of derp you're shoveling out is right up there with religious zealots, and it's of the same "you said something about my belief system I disagree with, so I must shout at you and insult you!" type.

You don't want to be called a religion, because you don't like to be associated with the behavior of religious types, but you act just like the deeply religious when anybody disagrees with you (i.e. says your religion is actually a religion).

That's actually my problem with Atheism: not that they don't believe the same as me (I don't care what you believe, just as long as you keep it to yourself), but that they like to get in my face and mock my beliefs and lecture about how they are right and everyone else is wrong.  Invisible Sky Wizard, Invisible Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster and such, intentional mockeries of religion done to be insulting.  The talk of religion being a mental illness, of belief in God being delusional, that's my problem, an active lack of respect for the peaceable beliefs and practices of others.  (I'll mock Scientology all day, but they aren't peaceable, that's more of an organized crime syndicate/scam with the fig leaf of religion, see also Lisa McPherson, Operation Freakout, Operation Snow White ect.)

Yes, only a minority of atheists attend those services, or pursue "unbaptism" and such, but it is clear that there is the practice out there of atheism with all the trappings and behavior of a religion.  It's also clear that there are atheists out there with as much zealotry about their beliefs as any theist.

Then again, how many Christians regularly attend services instead of just kinda being religious and Christian but not really attend a specific Church and are part of a denomination in name only and if you didn't know better weren't of any real religion, because being Christian is the norm in the west?  How many Buddhists are so in only the most token fashion because it's expected in most Asian societies and don't really know the details of the eightfold path or the four noble truths?  How many Jews are non-practicing in that if they had to list a religion they'd say they were of the Hebrew faith, but haven't been to a synagogue in many years or decades (or may not even have had a bar/bat mitzvah).
 
2013-04-11 05:23:26 PM

Silverstaff: neongoats: Silverstaff: What about atheists who say everyone who disagrees with them is deluded and mentally ill?  That's Dawkins big act, to mock theistic belief systems and say that everybody who believes otherwise is deluded.

Hint: When anyone there you mentions starts putting forth legislation to ban your mammon worship, your points will be valid. Until then you are basically just saying "Hey, stop telling me I can't discriminate, that's discrimination!"

When did I say I worshiped mammon, or any specific deity?  I've said it before, go ahead, when have I ever claimed on Fark that I was a worshipper of the God of Abraham/Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus/Allah ect?  I gave up organized, formal religion 16 years ago.

However, look on this very thread for plenty of examples of Atheist bigotry and hatred, and stereotyping.

Just because I have pointed out religious trappings in Atheism as currently practiced, noting that they rise to the definition of being a religion through their practices in how they've turned a simple denial of divinity into something more complicated, I've been:

1. Called a "primitive savage fark", by you.
2. Accused of worshipping mammon, by you.
3. Accused of blindly following Pat Robertson and other evangelists/fundamentalists, by Deathfrogg.
4. Accused of being a troll by many posters.

Just because I've made this argument, without me ever saying anything about being of any Abrahamic belief system.  That's all your own stereotyping and bigotry.  Try cleaning up your own behavior.  Not everybody who is fed up with self-righteous Atheists is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, or of any mainstream religion.

If you keep insulting theists and other insults to religion, and stereotyping everyone of theistic belief as being Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists or "primitive savage farks" as you call it, you're going to be treated like you have an irrational hatred of theists.  Everything you've done in this thread has just backed up and supported my ...


Hint: all of your butthurt is irrelevant. I don't have to like you. I don't have to respect your religion, or lack of it. I don't give a shiat about you or your life.

What I do give a shiat about, is freedom. Freedom to think you are a dickhole, freedom to worship something, freedom to not worship something. You see, I'm not trying to legislate Christianity out of existence. I'm not trying to drive worshippers into the sea with fire and pitchforks.(amusing as that might be) And I'm not constantly trying to get hurpers to legislate my lack of religion into law.

Hint: if you want freedom for Jesus, you damn well better support freedom for Behelifet, freedom for Thor, freedom for Allah, and freedom for atheists to think all of the above are delusions. Anything less is unacceptable.

How can you even make your argument and not feel stupid.

Thread: hey bumpkins, stop trying to end run the Constitution and force Jesus as a state religion, k
you: but Atheists are mean to me, therefor it's cool
Thread: you can worship what you want, what you can't do is legislate it into law
you: but atheists are a religion, and they are MEAN so its ok to make jesusy stuff law
Thread: no, really, its not. Everyone should be free to worship as they wish, and not involve the government
you: but atheists are a religion and they keep saying mean things
Thread: but they aren't systematically stripping you of your civil rights, right?
you: doesn't matter, they were mean, therefor NC should make jesus compulsory
Thread: sorry, no
you: stop being mean
Thread: no
 
2013-04-11 05:28:03 PM

ciberido: You're wrong.   Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods.


No. Agnosticism is the view that it is unknown or unknowable. AFAIK most atheists are agnostics, IOW they don't KNOW there is no god, they just don't believe in them.  If you haven't looked at  RobSeace's chart, you should. Take the time to understand it.

Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist.

No. Atheism is the absence of belief in gods.  Some atheists might be certain that there are no gods, but most just don't see any reason to believe in them.

I wonder where you get your information.

And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.

Not doing something (believing in gods, collecting stamps ...) is not a life stance.
 
2013-04-11 05:32:27 PM

Karac: One of my fondest dreams is to learn to say the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic, or even just Hebrew - you know, just like Jesus would do.

And then go to a local school board meeting, ask if I can say a prayer before we start, and see how long it takes before I have to switch to english to yell "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"


Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh.
Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh:
ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah.
Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana.
O'shwooq lan kho-bein:
ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween.
Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona:
il-la paç-çan min beesha.
Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota
oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta
l'alam al-mein. Aa-meen.


you can hear it sung here
 
2013-04-11 05:33:28 PM
img202.imageshack.us

Atheism is the antonym of religion.
 
2013-04-11 05:34:34 PM

ciberido: Atheism is not a lack of belief.  Agnosticism is.  Why do you insist on confusing those two terms?


Atheism = A - Theos. God with a negating prefix.
Agnosticism = A - gnostikos. Knowledge with a negating prefix.
 
2013-04-11 05:37:52 PM

neongoats: What I do give a shiat about, is freedom. Freedom to think you are a dickhole, freedom to worship something, freedom to not worship something. You see, I'm not trying to legislate Christianity out of existence. I'm not trying to drive worshippers into the sea with fire and pitchforks.(amusing as that might be) And I'm not constantly trying to get hurpers to legislate my lack of religion into law.

Hint: if you want freedom for Jesus, you damn well better support freedom for Behelifet, freedom for Thor, freedom for Allah, and freedom for atheists to think all of the above are delusions. Anything less is unacceptable.


Same here, I want religious freedom for all.  When have I ever said otherwise, please cite it.  Please quote from any Fark thread, EVER, where I have opposed freedom of religion.

Why the hell do people keep making a strawman of me in this thread to say I'm opposing freedom of religion by saying that Atheism is a religion?  I never said that.  If anything, it means you're quite free to be an Atheist.

I don't care if you worship Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, Vishnu, Shang Ti, Mithras, Odin & Thor, Athena, Isis, The Horned God, the God and Goddess, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or whatever.

Halleluiah, Allahu Akbar, Shalom, Namaste, Blessed Be, Ramen, whatever.

I'll laugh at you if you worship L. Ron Hubbard, but I won't stop you from doing anything with it unless you're breaking some other laws though.

Really, I keep wondering where this disconnect is coming from that I'm arguing one thing (that Atheism as practiced in the modern day meets the definition of a religious belief system and practices) but others act like I'm arguing something completely unrelated (that I oppose freedom of religion and want Christianity as a state religion, or something).

Please, PLEASE provide an actual quote from an actual post I've EVER made on Fark opposing freedom of religion.  Feel free to Google through old posts from all the years I've been on here, I certainly can't think of any time I've ever said anything like that.
 
2013-04-11 05:45:33 PM

Silverstaff: Calling me a liar? For a belief system built on logic and reason, you sure are getting emotional.


Not emotional at all. Just stating a fact.

You continue to characterize all atheists by the actions of a tiny few. This is dishonest. You are a liar.
 
2013-04-11 05:52:23 PM

Silverstaff: Atheism is a religion


This is the opposite of the truth.

Other things that are true by your logic:

-Christianity involves handling snakes during worship service
-Islam is terrorist organization
-Buddhism requires you to light yourself on fire
-Catholicism condones child sex abuse (okay, maybe I should have left this one off the list)
 
2013-04-11 06:06:44 PM

Silverstaff: (that Atheism as practiced in the modern day meets the definition of a religious belief system and practices)


By your intensely open and vague definition, just about any gathering of 3 people could be a religion.

Your kids softball team: meets all of your criteria.. RELIGION!
Stamp and coin collecting club: meets all of your criteria... RELIGION!
Tupperware party throwing old house biddy: meets all of your criteria... RELIGION!

Lacking a belief in something isn't a religion. No matter how many times you repeat yourself with big walls of texts, it doesn't make it so.

Your fervent, fiery eyed fundamentalism about how being atheist is a religion might be a religion though. I mean, you are believing false things intentionally. Passionately defending that belief, and insistent that you are being persecuted for your beliefs.
 
2013-04-11 06:29:12 PM

neongoats: By your intensely open and vague definition, just about any gathering of 3 people could be a religion.


No, I'm going by the definition in the Comparative Theology textbook I used in college.  Theology is a bit of a hobby of mine.

Religion is something that:
1. Describes the relationship between mankind and the sacred and divine.
2. Expresses that description through social interaction, practices, symbols, and other intellectual and cultural forms.
3. Provides a path of personal improvement or transformation.

Note that this does NOT include Apple as a religion, or a sports team as a religion, or the other strawmen thrown out in this thread, because none of them meet the first part of that description, since none discuss the relationship of humanity to the divine.  Atheists do discuss that relationship though, they deny it exists by denying the existence of the sacred and divine.

As to the second part, as I noted many times, in those "walls of text" you like to deride, there is plenty of social mimicry by atheists of other religious forms such as worship services, sacraments and symbols, not to mention the many books discussing the subject.

As for a path of personal transformation, given how the typical dogma seems to be something like "we're more logical, become an atheist and become a better person" or the Dawkins-sponsored pro-Atheism bus-ads that say "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy life", seem to say that your life will be improved by adopting Atheism, which makes it pass the third prong of that test.

I'm even willing to admit that not every atheist is religiously atheistic, but I am quite adamant that there is such a thing as religious atheism.  Just saying you don't believe in God and that's it, being an atheist, yeah, that's not a religion.  When you add in atheistic church services, ordinations, "unbaptism", symbols, that's turning your belief system into a religion.  When you're making a point of angrily, vehemently defending your lack of religion on an online message board, you're definitely at least in a grey area as to whether or not it's a religion.
 
2013-04-11 06:41:36 PM

Silverstaff: neongoats: By your intensely open and vague definition, just about any gathering of 3 people could be a religion.

No, I'm going by the definition in the Comparative Theology textbook I used in college.  Theology is a bit of a hobby of mine.

Religion is something that:
1. Describes the relationship between mankind and the sacred and divine.
2. Expresses that description through social interaction, practices, symbols, and other intellectual and cultural forms.
3. Provides a path of personal improvement or transformation.

Note that this does NOT include Apple as a religion, or a sports team as a religion, or the other strawmen thrown out in this thread, because none of them meet the first part of that description, since none discuss the relationship of humanity to the divine.  Atheists do discuss that relationship though, they deny it exists by denying the existence of the sacred and divine.

As to the second part, as I noted many times, in those "walls of text" you like to deride, there is plenty of social mimicry by atheists of other religious forms such as worship services, sacraments and symbols, not to mention the many books discussing the subject.

As for a path of personal transformation, given how the typical dogma seems to be something like "we're more logical, become an atheist and become a better person" or the Dawkins-sponsored pro-Atheism bus-ads that say "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy life", seem to say that your life will be improved by adopting Atheism, which makes it pass the third prong of that test.

I'm even willing to admit that not every atheist is religiously atheistic, but I am quite adamant that there is such a thing as religious atheism.  Just saying you don't believe in God and that's it, being an atheist, yeah, that's not a religion.  When you add in atheistic church services, ordinations, "unbaptism", symbols, that's turning your belief system into a religion.  When you're making a point of angrily, vehemently defe ...


But only a tiny fraction of athiests do this.  So when you say atheism is a religion, I can use the same logic to condemn any follower of the Abrahamic god as terrorists, because a few of his followers are.  I realize that doing so would be intellectually dishonest.  The same can not be said about you, apparently.
 
2013-04-11 07:41:19 PM
"I'm an Atheist because I believe God doesn't exist, not because I have a score to settle with him." - Adam Carolla
 
2013-04-11 07:56:30 PM
Actually, I'm liking the path Silverstaff is mapping out...

The next time someone conflates athiesim with genocidal dictators, ask them about this:

i48.tinypic.com

It's almost like all atrocities *ARE* associated with religion after all.
 
2013-04-11 08:20:04 PM

maxheck: Actually, I'm liking the path Silverstaff is mapping out...

The next time someone conflates athiesim with genocidal dictators, ask them about this:

[i48.tinypic.com image 640x1188]

It's almost like all atrocities *ARE* associated with religion after all.


Except that Stalinism and Maoism are not religions, however, both Stalin and Mao were avowed atheists and spread atheism in their nations.  Stalin founded the League of Militant Atheists, publicly stated there was no God and made atheism the official belief system of the USSR.  Atheism was a core tenet of Marxist-Leninist philosophy.  One of the major goals of the Cultural Revolution was the complete eradication of religion from the PRC.

If you're going to call Stalinism and Maoism religions, then Atheism is definitely a religion.  Stalinism and Maoism would essentially be denominations of Atheism.  Obviously not every atheist is or was Stalinist/Maoist, however every obedient Stalinist/Maoist by definition was Atheist.

You want to talk atrocities committed in the 20th century the USSR and PRC?  Okay, just remember, they were done in the name of an officially Atheist state, including the imprisonment in gulags of Russian Orthodox clergy purely on the grounds of their religious faith and the destruction of Orthodox churches .

So yes, please, if you want to talk about the role, drop that inaccurate little chart there that pretends that nothing bad has ever been done in the name of Atheism, and line it up that the atrocities of Stalin and Mao can be listed as atrocities done in the name of Atheism.
 
2013-04-11 08:32:53 PM
Silverstaff:

maxheck: Actually, I'm liking the path Silverstaff is mapping out...

The next time someone conflates athiesim with genocidal dictators, ask them about this:

[i48.tinypic.com image 640x1188]

It's almost like all atrocities *ARE* associated with religion after all.

Except that Stalinism and Maoism are not religions, however, both Stalin and Mao were avowed atheists and spread atheism in their nations. Stalin founded the League of Militant Atheists, publicly stated there was no God and made atheism the official belief system of the USSR. Atheism was a core tenet of Marxist-Leninist philosophy. One of the major goals of the Cultural Revolution was the complete eradication of religion from the PRC.

If you're going to call Stalinism and Maoism religions, then Atheism is definitely a religion. Stalinism and Maoism would essentially be denominations of Atheism. Obviously not every atheist is or was Stalinist/Maoist, however every obedient Stalinist/Maoist by definition was Atheist.

You want to talk atrocities committed in the 20th century the USSR and PRC? Okay, just remember, they were done in the name of an officially Atheist state, including the imprisonment in gulags of Russian Orthodox clergy purely on the grounds of their religious faith and the destruction of Orthodox churches .

So yes, please, if you want to talk about the role, drop that inaccurate little chart there that pretends that nothing bad has ever been done in the name of Atheism, and line it up that the atrocities of Stalin and Mao can be listed as atrocities done in the name of Atheism.


Let me quote someone with one word changed and see if you agree with him:

"Sorry, Atheists Statists, collectively, have derped out and created a full-bore religious belief system around denying religion, complete with congregations and worship services, dogmatic texts, symbols and rites/rituals.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. You've got symbols, texts defining your beliefs, places where you congregate to share your beliefs, groups of people of like belief who gather together out of this belief, rites and rituals performed by these people in these places, and symbols to define and publicly proclaim your beliefs with, and have even had violent militants.

If it sounds like a religion, talks like a religion, and acts like a religion, it's a religion."


Sound familiar?

Methinks you would like to have it both ways. Just because the name of the god is "The State" rather than "Yahweh" or whatever god you worship doesn't mean it isn't a religion.

Religious behavior is based on some deep-rooted stuff in the human mind and society. It works. The first thing you do when your religion wants to evangelize is to shut out all other religions. "Thou shalt have no other god before me." This wasn't lost on Stalin any more than it was on the writers of the Torah.
 
2013-04-11 08:40:05 PM
The North Carolina measure responds to the ACLU suit by declaring that each state is "sovereign" and no federal court can prevent a state from "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." Though Warren, one of the bill's authors, told HuffPost Live that the measure was not seeking to create a state religion, the drafted legislation would clearly allow for such an action.

The court only has to tell you that the damned US Constitution says "NO!"  If you don't like that, well then this really is a case of "GTFO!"
 
2013-04-11 08:41:59 PM

Silverstaff: made atheism the official belief system of the USSR


Ummm...
 
2013-04-11 09:33:19 PM

vrax: Silverstaff: made atheism the official belief system of the USSR

Ummm...


Yeah, after further review, we're gonna have to assign him an

i.qkme.me
 
2013-04-11 09:43:14 PM

vrax: Silverstaff: made atheism the official belief system of the USSR

Ummm...


You want citations for that?

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/128810?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4 &s id=21101890978473
"The Soviet policy of state atheism (gosateism), albeit inconsistently applied, is a major goal of the official ideology"
Protest For Religious Rights in the USSR: Charateristics and Consequences by David Kowalewski, Russia Review, Volume 39, Number 4, October 1980

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm
"Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation... Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward... Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."
Socialism and Religion by Vladimir Lenin, Novaya Zhizn No. 28, December 3, 1905

http://books.google.com/books?id=EGZWrMIXlPAC&lpg=PP1&ots=0ySqufbAvG &d q=ussr%20religion%20policy&lr&pg=PR6#v=onepage&q&f=false
"A fundamental tenet of Marxism-Leninism is that religion will ultimately disappear.  If it began to seem unlikely to do so, the authorities would naturally adopt measures to promote its disappearance, since its continued prsence was a rebuke to the claims of the ideology."
Religious Policy in the Soviet Union by Sabrina Ramet, Cambridge University Press 1993

You do realize the whole reason the national motto of the US was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust" and that "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's was specifically to counterpoint the official atheist stance of the USSR during the cold war?  The modern right-wing "Christian State" derp traces back to trying to make the US look like a Christian religious entity to serve as a counterpoint to the atheistic USSR.
 
2013-04-11 10:22:53 PM
Silverstaff

You do realize the whole reason the national motto of the US was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust" and that "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's was specifically to counterpoint the official atheist stance of the USSR during the cold war? The modern right-wing "Christian State" derp traces back to trying to make the US look like a Christian religious entity to serve as a counterpoint to the atheistic USSR.

And many of the stories in the Christian Bible were slams on competing religions or political systems.

Again, that's the first thing you do when you're setting up a religion. Take a look at one of the newer ones like Scientology. What are they famous for?

Christianity wants Islam to dissapear. Islam wants Christianity to dissapear... and *everybody* hates the Jews... :)
 
2013-04-11 10:27:09 PM

natas6.0: yes yes yes, I understand all the impotent rage against the mean old religious people who like to pray before a meeting.
yes they're ignorant
yes they say stupid crap
but I really dislike that we have to accomodate  all the things
if you don't like something, you have the freedom to walk the fark out
THAT seems more like the america I used to like


Why? Don't the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, satan worshippers, Wiccans, Taoists and such in the state pay taxes? As such, don't they deserve equal representation in their state and local government, and more importantly, what that government does in their name?
The america you used to like, if it ever existed, is gone. Everyone lives here, and everyone gets a say. You would do well to remember that, and so would the republicans.
 
2013-04-11 10:28:39 PM

spongeboob: On the plus side I would love to see the battle between different sects of Christianity to be the official state religion.


If you really want to see heads asplode, make the official Christian religion Catholicism...
 
2013-04-11 10:45:03 PM
i14.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-11 10:50:54 PM

Silverstaff: vrax: Silverstaff: made atheism the official belief system of the USSR

Ummm...

You want citations for that?

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/128810?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4 &s id=21101890978473
"The Soviet policy of state atheism (gosateism), albeit inconsistently applied, is a major goal of the official ideology"
Protest For Religious Rights in the USSR: Charateristics and Consequences by David Kowalewski, Russia Review, Volume 39, Number 4, October 1980

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm
"Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation... Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward... Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."
Socialism and Religion by Vladimir Lenin, Novaya Zhizn No. 28, December 3, 1905

http://books.google.com/books?id=EGZWrMIXlPAC&lpg=PP1&ots=0ySqufbAvG &d q=ussr%20religion%20policy&lr&pg=PR6#v=onepage&q&f=false
"A fundamental tenet of Marxism-Leninism is that religion will ultimately disappear.  If it began to seem unlikely to do so, the authorities would naturally adopt measures to promote its disappearance, since its continued prsence was a rebuke to the claims of the ideology."
Religious Policy in the Soviet Union by Sabrina Ramet, Cambridge University Press 1993

You do realize the whole reason the national motto of the US was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust" and that "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's was specifically to counterpoint the official atheist stance of the USSR during the cold war?  The modern right-wing "Christian State" derp traces back t ...


Sorry, I'm not disputing the establishment of atheism as policy.  I'm poking at the "belief system" part.
 
2013-04-11 10:53:50 PM

Silverstaff: "The Soviet policy of state atheism (gosateism), albeit inconsistently applied, is a major goal of the official ideology"
Protest For Religious Rights in the USSR: Charateristics and Consequences by David Kowalewski, Russia Review, Volume 39, Number 4, October 1980


Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.
 
2013-04-11 11:23:52 PM

TheGregiss: vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.

Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.


I have been an atheist all my life. No one knows I'm an atheist until some bible thumping asshole decides that they want to do something insanely stupid, like try to change laws so that they are in line with their particular delusion.
In essence, believe in whatever you want to, just don't try and change the rules so that I have to follow your beliefs. Leave people alone to live their lives, and you live yours, capice?
 
2013-04-11 11:39:56 PM

rewind2846: TheGregiss: vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.

Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.

I have been an atheist all my life. No one knows I'm an atheist until some bible thumping asshole decides that they want to do something insanely stupid, like try to change laws so that they are in line with their particular delusion.
In essence, believe in whatever you want to, just don't try and change the rules so that I have to follow your beliefs. Leave people alone to live their lives, and you live yours, capice?


Exactly!  The vast majority of atheists here on Fark and elsewhere typically get fired up when some assclown decides to interject their religious crap into a place it doesn't belong and/or in a way that is unacceptable.  It's pretty damned rare that I see some atheist just "proselytizing".
 
2013-04-12 12:19:17 AM

vrax: rewind2846: TheGregiss: vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.

Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.

I have been an atheist all my life. No one knows I'm an atheist until some bible thumping asshole decides that they want to do something insanely stupid, like try to change laws so that they are in line with their particular delusion.
In essence, believe in whatever you want to, just don't try and change the rules so that I have to follow your beliefs. Leave people alone to live their lives, and you live yours, capice?

Exactly!  The vast majority of atheists here on Fark and elsewhere typically get fired up when some assclown decides to interject their religious crap into a place it doesn't belong and/or in a way that is unacceptable.  It's pretty damned rare that I see some atheist just "proselytizing".


Did you miss the Rick Warren son "suicide thread?"
 
2013-04-12 12:23:17 AM

Lsherm: vrax: rewind2846: TheGregiss: vudukungfu: Religion is like guns and penises.
It's OK to have one.
It's OK to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out and wave it around at a polling place, a legislature, a school, a bank, the mall, etc. etc.

Fark atheists™ take note as this applies to you.

I have been an atheist all my life. No one knows I'm an atheist until some bible thumping asshole decides that they want to do something insanely stupid, like try to change laws so that they are in line with their particular delusion.
In essence, believe in whatever you want to, just don't try and change the rules so that I have to follow your beliefs. Leave people alone to live their lives, and you live yours, capice?

Exactly!  The vast majority of atheists here on Fark and elsewhere typically get fired up when some assclown decides to interject their religious crap into a place it doesn't belong and/or in a way that is unacceptable.  It's pretty damned rare that I see some atheist just "proselytizing".

Did you miss the Rick Warren son "suicide thread?"


I wouldn't say I missed it, exactly.  *ba-dum crash*  Yes, I did not read that one.  I'll take a looksie, though now I'm a bit afraid.
 
2013-04-12 12:43:56 AM

Silverstaff: No, I'm going by the definition in the Comparative Theology textbook I used in college.  Theology is a bit of a hobby of mine.

Religion is something that:
1. Describes the relationship between mankind and the sacred and divine.
2. Expresses that description through social interaction, practices, symbols, and other intellectual and cultural forms.
3. Provides a path of personal improvement or transformation.

Note that this does NOT include Apple as a religion, or a sports team as a religion, or the other strawmen thrown out in this thread, because none of them meet the first part of that description, since none discuss the relationship of humanity to the divine.  Atheists do discuss that relationship though, they deny it exists by denying the existence of the sacred and divine.


Could you define "sacred" and "divine" for us?

I think your confusion comes because the words "sacred" and "divine" mean something different to atheists than they do to theists. To a theist, "sacred" means something that has special meaning to God, and "divine" means something part of or connected to God.

To an atheist, "sacred" means something that has special meaning to a religious person because of their religion, and "divine" means something a religious person thinks comes from God.

So, despite using the same words, we are not actually talking about the same things. Therefore, the first part of your definition does not apply.

What superhuman being(s) do atheists worship anyway?
 
2013-04-12 12:52:20 AM
Theocracy is great when it's your religion.
 
2013-04-12 01:34:04 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: RedPhoenix122: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Since we don't want to pray to terror gods, could an atheist lead a group chant thanking the building inspector for providing a well functioning place of meeting?

At least there's tangible evidence of that.

"All hail Terry, keeper of fire codes and master of ADA compliance!"


That would be quite amusing.
 
2013-04-12 01:45:44 AM

This About That: I especially like the part where, in a very few sentences she says "We just need to start taking a stand on our religious freedom or it will be whisked away from us." seconds after she said that allowing Muslim prayer is supporting terrorism. Have legislators always been this ignorant, or is it just because of the Internet that we hear about it?


They've always been this ignorant, and it's just now that it's becoming widely known.
 
2013-04-12 04:35:05 AM

Silverstaff: If you're going to call Stalinism and Maoism religions, then Atheism is definitely a religion.


Nope. Infallible leaders are a mark of religion, not atheism. It is human to fail, and no criticism of Stalin or Mao was tolerated.

Stalinism and Maoism would essentially be denominations of Atheism.  Obviously not every atheist is or was Stalinist/Maoist, however every obedient Stalinist/Maoist by definition was Atheist.

People who worship infallible leaders aren't atheists. Take North Korea as an example (although they've taken this waaay further than China or the USSR ever did).

You want to talk atrocities committed in the 20th century the USSR and PRC?  Okay, just remember, they were done in the name of an officially Atheist state,

I'll just lump you with the other fools who can't tell the difference between atheism and communism.
 
2013-04-12 08:56:12 AM

Silverstaff: No, I'm going by the definition in the Comparative Theology textbook I used in college.  Theology is a bit of a hobby of mine.


What did that textbook of yours say about atheism. Did it define it as a religion? Was there a chapter on it comparing atheist belief systems to other religions?
 
2013-04-12 10:18:10 AM

miscreant: Agnosticism is the belief that whether gods exists or not is not just unknown, but unknowable.


Inside a philosophy class, yes.

Out in the real world, "agnostic" means "I don't know or don't have a strong opinion on the topic."

It's a lot like how "theory" means something very different when two biologists are discussing the theory of evolution versus your boss at work telling you he has a theory about taxes.
 
2013-04-12 10:23:14 AM

RobSeace: ciberido: You're wrong. Agnosticism is the absence of faith in gods. Atheism is the certainty that gods do not exist. And, as I said earlier, it's a life stance, which does not make it a religion.

Not sure where you came up with that... Agnostic vs gnostic is an entirely separate issue from atheist vs. theist... The former is a question of knowledge/certainty, while the latter is an issue of belief... What you're describing as "atheism" is really "gnostic atheism"... Most of us are agnostic atheists...

[i132.photobucket.com image 683x660]


Yeah I've seen that chart many times.  But only in Fark threads for some reason.

Again, the distinction you're making is great if two philosophy professors are having a nice chat in the teacher's lounge.  It's not how the average American uses the words "atheist" and "agnostic" when talking about why Judy's brother-in-law doesn't go to church.

"God's existence is unknowable" is in interesting position to take inside a classroom or Fark thread.  It has no real bearing on discussing what politicians are trying to do in North Carolina.
 
2013-04-12 10:24:39 AM

ciberido: Out in the real world, "agnostic" means "I don't know or don't have a strong opinion on the topic."


Which does not preclude the atheist "without god" definition.

Which is the only definition that includes all atheists and is therefore, IMO, the most useful and correct definition.
 
2013-04-12 11:11:06 AM

ciberido: It's not how the average American uses the words "atheist" and "agnostic" when talking about why Judy's brother-in-law doesn't go to church.


Well, I can't claim to speak on behalf of "the average American", but I've always used the words that way... I've heard others use the looser "atheist lite" definition of agnostic before many times, but I still resist it, and continue to refer to myself as both agnostic and atheist... But, I've never heard anyone else before try to seriously claim that atheist inherently means you are certain that no gods exist, as you did... That's just crazy talk... No one I know or have read before has ever used the term that way... (Nor have I ever encountered anyone who would even fit that definition!) No definition I find anywhere asserts anything close to that... Some claim it means one holds an active disbelief in gods, while others use the correct simple lack of belief definition, but none say it means one knows there are no gods... Who are these people you know who use the word that way? Is there any documentation of this usage anywhere?
 
2013-04-12 03:23:56 PM

RobSeace: ciberido: It's not how the average American uses the words "atheist" and "agnostic" when talking about why Judy's brother-in-law doesn't go to church.

Well, I can't claim to speak on behalf of "the average American", but I've always used the words that way... I've heard others use the looser "atheist lite" definition of agnostic before many times, but I still resist it, and continue to refer to myself as both agnostic and atheist... But, I've never heard anyone else before try to seriously claim that atheist inherently means you are certain that no gods exist, as you did... That's just crazy talk... No one I know or have read before has ever used the term that way... (Nor have I ever encountered anyone who would even fit that definition!) No definition I find anywhere asserts anything close to that... Some claim it means one holds an active disbelief in gods, while others use the correct simple lack of belief definition, but none say it means one knows there are no gods... Who are these people you know who use the word that way? Is there any documentation of this usage anywhere?


You will definitely find a solid group of gnostic atheists out there.  It goes somewhat like this: "Based on all the evidence against and the complete lack of any evidence for, I am confident that God doesn't exist, just as I'm confident that the tooth fairy doesn't exist."  It may be hard to swallow because the idea of God is so pervasive and seemingly unassailable to so many, but the same would have been said with regard to the Greek gods which we now dismiss as pure myth, as fiction, without a second thought.
 
2013-04-12 03:32:29 PM

vrax: "Based on all the evidence against and the complete lack of any evidence for, I am confident that God doesn't exist, just as I'm confident that the tooth fairy doesn't exist."


Which is not the equivalent of saying "I know for a fact that gods do not exist",  "Gods cannot exist", or anything like that.

Your example is a statement of personal position based on an analysis of available evidence. The examples I gave are claims of knowledge. They are different and very, very few people make the latter statements.
 
2013-04-12 04:06:34 PM

Farking Canuck: vrax: "Based on all the evidence against and the complete lack of any evidence for, I am confident that God doesn't exist, just as I'm confident that the tooth fairy doesn't exist."

Which is not the equivalent of saying "I know for a fact that gods do not exist",  "Gods cannot exist", or anything like that.

Your example is a statement of personal position based on an analysis of available evidence. The examples I gave are claims of knowledge. They are different and very, very few people make the latter statements.


Then change "am confident" to "know" if it makes you feel better.  Since you can't directly observe something that doesn't exist, evidence for and/or against is all there will ever be.  I mean, I suppose you could leave room for the tooth fairy, even though there is no evidence for such a thing and plenty against, but since we have yet to actually directly observe one, well I guess we'd have to leave it at 99.9999% confident that it doesn't.
 
2013-04-12 05:53:25 PM

vrax: You will definitely find a solid group of gnostic atheists out there.


I'm not saying gnostic atheists don't exist... I'm saying I've never before heard anyone use the unadorned term "atheist" to mean specifically and only the gnostic atheists, and claim it was wrong to include the agnostic atheists under the umbrella of the term as well... That's what I find a totally baffling concept...

Also, just being fairly confident in your belief doesn't mean you know for sure... If you would ever consider the possibility of changing your belief if presented with evidence of gods, then I'd say you're not really gnostic... Because, they claim to already have certain knowledge of the non-existence of gods...
 
2013-04-12 06:12:59 PM

Uncle Tractor: Atheism is the absence of faith in gods.


Lack of belief, more precisely. And which term also is used to for the class of belief systems that lack such belief in god(s)... as I said.

TheGregiss: Being a former church goer I can safely say youre having a collective circle jerk about your beliefs.
which is essentially a religious gathering.


Lacks the ritualistic elements; compare Dale Cannon's "Six Ways of Being Religious".
 
2013-04-12 07:20:13 PM

RobSeace: vrax: You will definitely find a solid group of gnostic atheists out there.

I'm not saying gnostic atheists don't exist... I'm saying I've never before heard anyone use the unadorned term "atheist" to mean specifically and only the gnostic atheists, and claim it was wrong to include the agnostic atheists under the umbrella of the term as well... That's what I find a totally baffling concept...


I'm sorry, I totally misunderstood what you were getting at.  I completely agree with you.

Also, just being fairly confident in your belief doesn't mean you know for sure... If you would ever consider the possibility of changing your belief if presented with evidence of gods, then I'd say you're not really gnostic... Because, they claim to already have certain knowledge of the non-existence of gods...

I guess after reading and watching so many atheist discussions over the years I've come to accept that gnostic refers to the extent of our knowledge.  This is, again, why mythical creatures often come up when discussing gnostic atheism.  Most people are 100% sure that faeries don't exist.  Why?
 
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