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(Komo)   Customers like Windows 8 so much, they've driven the PC market to the worst sales since tracking started in 1994   (komonews.com) divider line 151
    More: Fail, Windows, lenovo, Hewlett-Packard Co, IDC, PC makers, total sales, Ibm PC  
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2125 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Apr 2013 at 10:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



151 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-04-10 07:46:47 PM  
You mean to tell me fixing things that aren't broken and freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection" in a saturated market where products can last 10 years or more with full functionality will hurt sales? YOU DON'T SAY!
 
2013-04-10 07:49:36 PM  
I've W8 computer at work. It's okay. More annoying than anything else
 
2013-04-10 07:51:23 PM  
PC sales are flopping because everybody is moving to tablets and hybrids. Once my desktop becomes obsolete, I'll be moving to a Surface or its equivalent.
 
2013-04-10 07:52:21 PM  

doglover: freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection"


This is a new one on me.  What are you going on about, exactly?

I've been using it for the past three months.  I can't say there was any compelling reason to upgrade from 7, especially considering the amount of time I put in to make it act like Windows 7.
 
2013-04-10 08:01:37 PM  
I have a tablet and a laptop, but there are some things that I just like doing on a desktop... Photoshop for starters.

A month ago I needed to replace my aging desktop. I ended up buying a 1 year old used computer rather than a new one with Windows8. I really don't want to spend the time learning a new OS...which really means learning where they hid all the things I know how do to in the old OS.
 
2013-04-10 08:02:03 PM  
Yeah, pretty much the stagnation of hardware
 
2013-04-10 08:02:52 PM  

Lsherm: This is a new one on me. What are you going on about, exactly?


Your ignorance is not an excuse.

Windows 8 isn't that bad. That doesn't mean it it's good, it only means it's not as bad as it could be. Its good points are like if someone shiats in your mouth and you find a peanut.
 
2013-04-10 08:08:07 PM  
Windows 8 isnt the cause of the slow down
 
2013-04-10 08:16:23 PM  
Everyone's become aware of the one good, one bad, one good thing MS accomplishes. So we'll all wait out W8 for whatever comes next.
 
2013-04-10 08:24:39 PM  

TinyFist: Everyone's become aware of the one good, one bad, one good thing MS accomplishes. So we'll all wait out W8 for whatever comes next.


What comes next has already leaked to the public.

They are doubling down on the Metro parts of Windows 8 nobody liked.
 
2013-04-10 08:28:08 PM  
People do not want to give up their desktop computers. Tablets aren't made for typing out papers, or keeping your bills. MS should stop trying to make their desktop look like a tablet or data phone.

Same with Apple. And Ubuntu linux.
 
2013-04-10 08:30:53 PM  

Nadie_AZ: People do not want to give up their desktop computers. Tablets aren't made for typing out papers, or keeping your bills. MS should stop trying to make their desktop look like a tablet or data phone.


Which is exactly why desktop sales are dropping while hybrids and tablet sales are going through the roof.

Slap a keyboard on a Windows 8 tablet and it's every bit as capable as your desktop. Hell, you can put a keyboard on an iPad and do everything you talk about, including use Microsoft Office.
 
2013-04-10 08:33:22 PM  

BullBearMS: TinyFist: Everyone's become aware of the one good, one bad, one good thing MS accomplishes. So we'll all wait out W8 for whatever comes next.

What comes next has already leaked to the public.

They are doubling down on the Metro parts of Windows 8 nobody liked.


That's one way to save Apple. It still might fail, but the first PC maker to bring in a Linux Distro that looks and acts like Windows XP wins the prize.
 
2013-04-10 08:39:47 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Slap a keyboard on a Windows 8 tablet and it's every bit as capable as your desktop. Hell, you can put a keyboard on an iPad and do everything you talk about, including use Microsoft Office.


See, this is the part I truly cannot fathom.  To me, when I see a keyboard on a tablet, you know what I see?  A farking laptop.  So why in the hell am I going to buy two parts when the one that comes put together already serves me fine?

Personally, I just want to stick with what I have and be productive with it.  Besides, when you like what you have, like I do, there's only so much room for improvement that would make it worth it for me to want to learn a new way to do the same old thing.
 
2013-04-10 08:42:59 PM  
I've been shopping for a new desktop.

My #1 requirement is that it does not come with Windows 8
 
2013-04-10 08:49:07 PM  

doglover: BullBearMS: TinyFist: Everyone's become aware of the one good, one bad, one good thing MS accomplishes. So we'll all wait out W8 for whatever comes next.

What comes next has already leaked to the public.

They are doubling down on the Metro parts of Windows 8 nobody liked.

That's one way to save Apple. It still might fail, but the first PC maker to bring in a Linux Distro that looks and acts like Windows XP wins the prize.


dl.dropboxusercontent.com

Here you go. ReactOS is an open source OS whose goal is not only to look like XP, but to be able to run Windows programs natively.

It's definitely still a work in progress though.
 
2013-04-10 08:54:37 PM  

FriarReb98: See, this is the part I truly cannot fathom.  To me, when I see a keyboard on a tablet, you know what I see?  A farking laptop.  So why in the hell am I going to buy two parts when the one that comes put together already serves me fine?


The keyboard on the Surface is nothing more than a cover that you can flip back and out of the way. Can't do that with a laptop. Even laptops are going the way of the tablet and coming with detachable keyboards.
 
2013-04-10 09:04:03 PM  

FriarReb98: To me, when I see a keyboard on a tablet, you know what I see? A farking laptop.


I see a farking laptop with a shiatty keyboard and trackpad. Who in their right mind wouldn't just get an ultrabook instead?
 
2013-04-10 09:28:06 PM  
I was able to get an refurbished laptop that was in like new condition (the plastic was still on it), I think because of Windows 8.

I threw Classic Shell on it and it runs like a champ.

/A kickass laptop for cheap? Thanks, Windows 8!
 
2013-04-10 09:42:08 PM  

doglover: Your ignorance is not an excuse.


UEFI secure boot is Win8's fault now? Interesting.
 
2013-04-10 09:50:23 PM  
Windows 8 has a completely new look that's similar to the design of the software running the most least popular smartphones and tablet computers.

FTFTFA.  The whole point of inflicting this awful UI on keyboard/mouse PCs was to leverage their assumed enormous base of systems capable of running Metro apps (desktops/laptops) to convince developers to write Metro apps that would also run on Windows RT tablets, a/k/a "The Windows that can't window Metro-style apps or run your existing Windows x86 apps so why for the love of Pete did they call it Windows".  This is what happens when you 'bet the company' on a dumb idea.
 
2013-04-10 10:03:25 PM  

cmunic8r99: doglover: Your ignorance is not an excuse.

UEFI secure boot is Win8's fault now? Interesting.


No, it's Microsoft's fault. You'd know that if you click the link.

2. MANDATORY. Secure Boot must ship enabled .....

...


17. MANDATORY: No in-line mechanism is provided whereby a user can bypass Secure Boot failures and boot anyway Signature verification override during boot when Secure Boot is enabled is not allowed. A physically present user override is not permitted for UEFI images that fail signature verification during boot. If a user wants to boot an image that does not pass signature verification, they must explicitly disable Secure Boot on the target system.

...

20. MANDATORY: On non-ARM systems, the platform MUST implement the ability for a physically present user to select between two Secure Boot modes in firmware setup: "Custom" and "Standard". Custom Mode allows for more flexibility as specified in the following:

a) It shall be possible for a physically present user to use the Custom Mode firmware setup option to modify the contents of the Secure Boot signature databases and the PK.
b) If the user ends up deleting the PK then, upon exiting the Custom Mode firmware setup, the system will be operating in Setup Mode with Secure Boot turned off.
c) The firmware setup shall indicate if Secure Boot is turned on, and if it is operated in Standard or Custom Mode. The firmware setup must provide an option to return from Custom to Standard Mode which restores the factory defaults.
On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only Standard Mode may be enable.

21. MANDATORY: Enable/Disable Secure Boot. On non-ARM systems, it is required to implement the ability to disable Secure Boot via firmware setup. A physically present user must be allowed to disable Secure Boot via firmware setup without possession of PKpriv. Programmatic disabling of Secure Boot either during Boot Services or after exiting EFI Boot Services MUST NOT be possible.
Disabling Secure MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems.



It's not the end of the freakin' world, but it ain't good. Just one more layer of bullshiat to peel back to get a working PC. I'll wait for Windows 9 and an OS that works or makes me switch to Linux or Mac.
 
2013-04-10 10:12:40 PM  
I've been using Win 8 for nearly 24 hours. Took a few hours to figure it out. There's a Toshiba tile on the start menu which opens a near Win 7 environment, minus the Start button. and a right click on the start screen brings up an option to see all apps (including classic control panel). Still a few bugs.
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2013-04-10 10:20:44 PM  

BullBearMS: doglover: BullBearMS: TinyFist: Everyone's become aware of the one good, one bad, one good thing MS accomplishes. So we'll all wait out W8 for whatever comes next.

What comes next has already leaked to the public.

They are doubling down on the Metro parts of Windows 8 nobody liked.

That's one way to save Apple. It still might fail, but the first PC maker to bring in a Linux Distro that looks and acts like Windows XP wins the prize.



Here you go. ReactOS is an open source OS whose goal is not only to look like XP, but to be able to run Windows programs natively.

It's definitely still a work in progress though.


I may have to try dual-booting that on my Mac. I'm sure not putting Windows on it.
 
2013-04-10 10:27:08 PM  

doglover: You mean to tell me fixing things that aren't broken and freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection" in a saturated market where products can last 10 years or more with full functionality will hurt sales? YOU DON'T SAY!


As someone who has installed Linux in every computer I've ever owned, fark Windows 8 with a rake.
 
2013-04-10 10:30:49 PM  

doglover: Lsherm: This is a new one on me. What are you going on about, exactly?

Your ignorance is not an excuse.

Windows 8 isn't that bad. That doesn't mean it it's good, it only means it's not as bad as it could be. Its good points are like if someone shiats in your mouth and you find a peanut.


Excuse for what, exactly?  I was asking about your complaint.

Jesus, freak out much?
 
2013-04-10 10:38:23 PM  

doglover: You mean to tell me fixing things that aren't broken and freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection" in a saturated market where products can last 10 years or more with full functionality will hurt sales? YOU DON'T SAY!



From your link.

MS changed those proposals so oem's would also need to provide a way to disable it.
 
2013-04-10 10:41:49 PM  
Oh that BIOS locked down authentication stuff? Don't buy a ready made computer where the BIOS is locked by the maker to prevent you from installing an unsigned Linux distro.
Buy your board online and no issues, by just keeping 'OS signature for BIOS acceptance to boot', off.

/Ready made computers also come with lojack.
//You did not order it, but its still there waiting for you to buy it, but in the mean time, it may lock you out of the BIOS and make your windows stop booting.
///Buy a new computer to fix. repeat. repeat.
 
2013-04-10 10:43:55 PM  
I bought a Samsung Chromebook, yea the ARM 250.00 version.

its 6x less than a macbook, is it 6x worse? hell no, its my primary computer now.. my desktop sits in the basement and has been relegated to server duties. Much unloved.

Chromebook.. this is the disruptive technology.. plus they're taking it in the ass from ios/android as people go mobile with tablets and phones that are essentially super computers for your pocket.
 
2013-04-10 10:44:43 PM  
I bought a new computer in January. I decided to get a desktop because I already had an ipad that serves my mobile needs well enough. After trying out Windows 8, I got an iMac instead.
 
2013-04-10 10:45:47 PM  
I Put a copy of Win 8 on this barebones laptop, installed a start menu, and now i don't realize Im using 8 except for my boot up.
People love to whine about non issues...
 
2013-04-10 10:45:51 PM  

RedPhoenix122: doglover: You mean to tell me fixing things that aren't broken and freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection" in a saturated market where products can last 10 years or more with full functionality will hurt sales? YOU DON'T SAY!

As someone who has installed Linux in every computer I've ever owned, fark Windows 8 with a rake.


Why in the world do you spend the money to buy a computer with Windows pre-loaded instead of buying the components yourself?  If you're not putting Windows on it, it's WAY cheaper that way.
 
2013-04-10 10:47:12 PM  
It's funny the number of people who hate Windows 8 but haven't really used it.  It's by far the best OS I've ever seen.

/RT is a farking joke, though.  Seriously, don't even think of getting an RT machine; just get an iPad or Android tablet.
 
2013-04-10 10:48:43 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Nadie_AZ: People do not want to give up their desktop computers. Tablets aren't made for typing out papers, or keeping your bills. MS should stop trying to make their desktop look like a tablet or data phone.

Which is exactly why desktop sales are dropping while hybrids and tablet sales are going through the roof.

Slap a keyboard on a Windows 8 tablet and it's every bit as capable as your desktop. Hell, you can put a keyboard on an iPad and do everything you talk about, including use Microsoft Office.


Well, no tablet as of yet can run bf3 on ultra.
 
2013-04-10 10:49:31 PM  

meanmutton: Why in the world do you spend the money to buy a computer with Windows pre-loaded instead of buying the components yourself? If you're not putting Windows on it, it's WAY cheaper that way.


I normally dual-boot, which is hard if they lock the BIOS.  I would run full Linux if more of my Steam games would run on it.
 
2013-04-10 10:51:18 PM  

BullBearMS: It's definitely still a work in progress though.


That's the thing.  Linux desktops are ALWAYS a work in progress.  Linux is best used as far in the background as possible offering as limited of functionality as possible to an end user (see Android).
 
2013-04-10 10:55:46 PM  
RedPhoenix122:
I normally dual-boot, which is hard if they lock the BIOS.  I would run full Linux if more of my Steam games would run on it.

Secure Boot can be used to implement DRM
Untrue. The argument here is that Secure Boot can be used to restrict the software that a machine can run, and so can limit a system to running code that implements effective copy protection mechanisms. This isn't the case. For that to be true, there would need to be a mechanism for the OS to identify which code had been run in the pre-OS environment. There isn't. The only communication channel between the firmware and the OS is via a single UEFI variable called "SecureBoot", which may be either "1" or "0". Additionally, the firmware may provide a table to the OS containing a list of UEFI executables that failed to authenticate. It is not required to provide any information about the executables that authenticated correctly.

In both these cases, the OS is required to trust the firmware. If the firmware has been compromised in any way (such as the user turning off Secure Boot), the data provided by the firmware can be trivially modified and the OS told that everything is fine. As long as machines exist where users are permitted to disable Secure Boot, Secure Boot is not any kind of DRM scheme.


/I find it amazing that a linux user can be so incredibly ignorant as to be unable to  tick a box in a BIOS menu that says "Secure Boot" to Disabled.
//No I don't.
 
2013-04-10 10:56:17 PM  

blackartemis: I Put a copy of Win 8 on this barebones laptop, installed a start menu, and now i don't realize Im using 8 except for my boot up.
People love to whine about non issues...


When the very first thing a tech savvy user does is spend time and energy making the 'new' OS look NOT like the 'new' OS was intended by the maker, but like the one it 'replaced', the OS maker has failed at the most basic thing.

I've used 8. Under the hood, its nice. Some cool improvements.

The UI (especially Metro) is a swimming pool full of hot, steaming liquid ass.

Using it on a tech interface physically within arms reach isn't too painful, just awkward. Using it on a desktop PC, where real gaming and work get done, where there are often large, multiple monitors and no touch interface available is like trying to argue that the burning from your genital warts isn't anywhere NEAR as bad as the Chlamydia. Plus less itching!

The PC market isn't 'dying', contrary to every mass marking rag every year for the last two decades. The workstation and gaming rig will continue to be the silent workhorses that make the whole thing run smoothly while the 'special' kids drool on their 'Surface' toys and whine that they can't run Call Of Modern Warfare Blood Brothers In Arms sequel on it.
 
2013-04-10 10:57:13 PM  
If you have a computer running Windows 7 and all the software you need is already installed, you don't need to upgrade to W8. And though I have two tablets and a smartphone, it's just so much easier to to everything on a desktop, plus if you can handle computer upgrades yourself then your all set. Something went wrong with my Nexus 7 tablet, sent it to Asus to get it fixed, and they didn't even fix the original issue.

Microsoft should have never decided they would try to ditch their traditional desktop UI.
 
2013-04-10 10:58:11 PM  
I'm sure slowing PC sales have nothing to do with the fact that it's no longer necessary to upgrade every two or three years in order to run modern software.
 
2013-04-10 11:01:12 PM  

skinink: Microsoft should have never decided they would try to ditch their traditional desktop UI.


This.

They should have kept Windows 8 strictly for the Surface and marketed it as a hybrid tablet laptop. That way people would except the fact, and not biatch that they had to spend a little time to get used to the new UI.
 
2013-04-10 11:04:22 PM  

fluffy2097: /I find it amazing that a linux user can be so incredibly ignorant as to be unable to tick a box in a BIOS menu that says "Secure Boot" to Disabled.
//No I don't.


You do realize that not every BIOS will have that option, right?
 
2013-04-10 11:04:43 PM  
As much as I hate to say it, the problem with Windows 8 is that it didn't go far enough. The "dragging overlapping windows around" paradigm was invented in the late 70's, a replacement for that is long, long overdue.
 
2013-04-10 11:04:56 PM  

thisispete: I bought a new computer in January. I decided to get a desktop because I already had an ipad that serves my mobile needs well enough. After trying out Windows 8, I got an iMac instead.


So you paid for an overpriced Intel PC instead of just ordering one with Win 7?
 
2013-04-10 11:06:21 PM  

Therion: I've been shopping for a new desktop.

My #1 requirement is that it does not come with Windows 8


You can order Dell small business machines with Win 7 still or just build your own.
 
2013-04-10 11:07:37 PM  

mjones73: thisispete: I bought a new computer in January. I decided to get a desktop because I already had an ipad that serves my mobile needs well enough. After trying out Windows 8, I got an iMac instead.

So you paid for an overpriced Intel PC instead of just ordering one with Win 7?


Saying that doesn't sound edgy enough.
 
2013-04-10 11:12:25 PM  
Windows 8 is a fine choice alongside iOS and Android.

It's a consumer interface. Point. Click. Buy.

If you are a productive member of society, there is still Windows 7, OS X and Linux.
 
2013-04-10 11:15:38 PM  

blackartemis: I Put a copy of Win 8 on this barebones laptop, installed a start menu, and now i don't realize Im using 8 except for my boot up.
People love to whine about non issues...


Pretty much.  I bypass Metro, and installed a third-party app that brings back the START button.  A casual user would assume I'm running Windows 7.

I got a refurbished laptop from NewEgg.com, and it came pre-loaded with Windows 8.
 
2013-04-10 11:19:20 PM  

meanmutton: RedPhoenix122: doglover: You mean to tell me fixing things that aren't broken and freezing out third party OS fans with draconian BIOS "protection" in a saturated market where products can last 10 years or more with full functionality will hurt sales? YOU DON'T SAY!

As someone who has installed Linux in every computer I've ever owned, fark Windows 8 with a rake.

Why in the world do you spend the money to buy a computer with Windows pre-loaded instead of buying the components yourself?  If you're not putting Windows on it, it's WAY cheaper that way.


This was possible for about a year for notebooks. These days, not only is building your own impractical, more are coming with RAM and such soldered on.
 
2013-04-10 11:25:17 PM  

meanmutton: Why in the world do you spend the money to buy a computer with Windows pre-loaded instead of buying the components yourself?


My mom will be so glad to hear she can buy the components without Windows pre-loaded!
 
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