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(Yahoo)   The five biggest flop, worst-selling car models of all time. It's not surprising that the Pontiac Aztek is on the list, but the 1964 Studebaker Wagonaire "convertible station wagon" actually seems kinda cool   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 210
    More: Interesting, Pontiac Aztek, car models, Car Talk, Los Angeles Auto Show, swastikas, Detroit Auto Show, Polk  
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20155 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Apr 2013 at 7:51 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-10 05:42:59 PM
The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop.  There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s:

eagleradio97.files.wordpress.com

It was basically a 4-banger Chevy Cavalier with leather uphostery, though it clost to twice the price of a Chevy (probably the equivalent of somewhere between $30K and $40K in 2013 dollars, I would guess), and a complete piece of shiat.  Anybody who bought one (including my friend's dad, who bought the first one I ever saw in person) was justifiably pointed at and laughed at by all other drivers.
 
2013-04-10 06:10:47 PM
If they are categorizing these cars as failures because of low sales numbers, I'll be happy to point out that they only sold 400 of those Ferrari Enzos.
www.goldenrider.com
 
2013-04-10 06:30:07 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: If they are categorizing these cars as failures because of low sales numbers, I'll be happy to point out that they only sold 400 of those Ferrari Enzos.
[www.goldenrider.com image 768x512]


How many Enzos were made? How many did Ferrari expect to sell?

If they made 400 and sold them all, that's good; if they made 4,000 and sold only 400, that's bad.

/in either case, it's not nearly as bad as the Cadillac Catera, Pontiac Aztek, Bentley Mulsanne, Ford Edsel or Studebaker Wagenaire
 
2013-04-10 06:41:04 PM

King Something: Sin_City_Superhero: If they are categorizing these cars as failures because of low sales numbers, I'll be happy to point out that they only sold 400 of those Ferrari Enzos.
[www.goldenrider.com image 768x512]

How many Enzos were made? How many did Ferrari expect to sell?

If they made 400 and sold them all, that's good; if they made 4,000 and sold only 400, that's bad.

/in either case, it's not nearly as bad as the Cadillac Catera, Pontiac Aztek, Bentley Mulsanne, Ford Edsel or Studebaker Wagenaire


That was kind of my point. Sales figures are useless without production numbers.
 
2013-04-10 06:45:29 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: That was kind of my point. Sales figures are useless without production numbers.


I think the assumption is we're talking about mass-market cars here, not one-offs, exotics, or other intentionally-limited-production vehicles.  And the sales figures mentioned in TFA are pretty damn pathetic for mass-market cars.
 
2013-04-10 07:12:12 PM
I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...
 
2013-04-10 07:28:51 PM

Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...


I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas.  The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.
 
2013-04-10 07:38:57 PM
 
2013-04-10 07:48:09 PM
Everything old is new again!

l.yimg.com


playswithcars.com
 
2013-04-10 07:51:42 PM

NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"


Proving the power of good marketing once again, those turds were actually good sellers.  You used to see them around everywhere.  My uncle even bought one brand new back in the day (though I was disappointed that his had velour upholstery--he didn't spring for the "fine Coreeeeeeeeeenthian leather").  It was a total piece of shiat.  He must've had it for only about 40K miles before it started burning a quart of oil about every 100 miles and leaking every fluid it had wherever it was parked--when it ran at all.  I think he ultimately sold it to some illegal immigrant Mexicans for 200 bucks or something.
 
2013-04-10 07:54:08 PM
nozama.typepad.com
They don't make them like this anymore.
 
2013-04-10 07:55:34 PM

Erebus1954: They don't make them like this anymore.


You think you hate it now, but wait'll you drive it!
 
2013-04-10 07:56:03 PM

NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"


Corinth is famous for its leather!
 
2013-04-10 07:56:14 PM
Studebaker hawk...YEAAH!
 
2013-04-10 07:56:28 PM
The reason the Cadillac Catera failed is because it was a farking Cadillac built on the cavalier platform... "lets slap our luxury emblem on the cheapest econobox General Motors makes!  Brilliant!"
 
2013-04-10 07:57:09 PM

NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"


I am.. a  man... who knows who I am..
And you should drive a Christlike Cordoba...because... you are.. a man... who knows who I am.
 
2013-04-10 07:57:23 PM
I pronounce it "Ass-tek," as in you must be one to own one.
 
2013-04-10 07:57:51 PM

Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...


I'd like to get one and paint it to make a replica of the one Walt White drives (drove?).  That would have to be badass.
 
2013-04-10 07:57:54 PM
I wonder where Walter White gets all his parts from?
 
2013-04-10 08:00:09 PM

Cyberluddite: Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...

I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas.  The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.


I'll tell ya, you still see a lot of them on the roads around here today. And no, this is not a hipster area (although I suppose that's what a hipster area would say).
 
2013-04-10 08:00:28 PM
The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.
 
2013-04-10 08:01:00 PM
Besides being ugly, was there actually anything wrong with the Aztek? It just seemed like one of the many SUVs built on a minivan chassie that were popular at the time.
 
2013-04-10 08:01:10 PM

Alonjar: The reason the Cadillac Catera failed is because it was a farking Cadillac built on the cavalier platform... "lets slap our luxury emblem on the cheapest econobox General Motors makes!  Brilliant!"


Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Cimarron--as shown in my post up there at the top of this thread?  That was essentially a rebadged Chevy Cavalier. The Catera, as I understand it, was actually built in GM's division in Germany on an Opel platform.  I don't if that's any better, of course.
 
2013-04-10 08:02:22 PM

NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"


that cordoba is AWESOME. 360 prob. 120hp. back-in-the-day. one word CHICKS!
hey wait a few years. think reliant.
 
2013-04-10 08:02:44 PM
sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.
 
2013-04-10 08:02:52 PM

Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...


www.i-mockery.com
 
2013-04-10 08:03:06 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

What about this abomination to our eyes?
 
2013-04-10 08:03:21 PM
when GM unveiled the Aztek, says he'll never forget the gasp he heard from the crowd

onscreencars.com
 
2013-04-10 08:03:33 PM

Cyberluddite: Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...

I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas.  The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.


Exactly.  My ex's dad had one (he was a Pontiac car salesman, so...) and we borrowed it a few times when we needed to move things that were too big for my Corolla (read: everything).  It was a nice vehicle, and the interior was designed really well.  I just felt like such an asshole every time I got into it, though.
 
2013-04-10 08:03:44 PM

Cyberluddite: Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Cimarron--as shown in my post up there at the top of this thread?  That was essentially a rebadged Chevy Cavalier. The Catera, as I understand it, was actually built in GM's division in Germany on an Opel platform.  I don't if that's any better, of course.


You are correct, sir.. The Catera was a decent car, just piss-poorly marketed, and at the time, people were fleeing to SUVs in droves, so a dinky 4-door Bimmer wannabe was basically screwed from the get-go.
 
2013-04-10 08:04:26 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'll tell ya, you still see a lot of them on the roads around here today. And no, this is not a hipster area (although I suppose that's what a hipster area would say).


FuturePastNow: The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.


Wow, I almost never see them around here--maybe one every few months or so, and that's it.  And, sadly, there's no shortage of hipsters around here, so I'm guessing that you're correct and it's not a hipster thing to own one "ironically."
 
2013-04-10 08:05:37 PM
I would buy an Edsel.
 
2013-04-10 08:05:44 PM

dumbobruni: the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.


Yeah, but the 4400 count was based on the units that actually MADE IT to the buyers' driveways after purchase.
 
2013-04-10 08:06:18 PM
If the article is correct and Pontiac only sold about 5,000 Azteks, I must have seen close to 90% of them on the road.
 
2013-04-10 08:07:09 PM

netgamer7k: [upload.wikimedia.org image 280x190]

What about this abomination to our eyes?


I once heard the chevy SSR described as the "pick-up from Toon town".
perfect.
 
2013-04-10 08:07:58 PM

darwinpolice: Cyberluddite: Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...

I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas.  The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.

Exactly.  My ex's dad had one (he was a Pontiac car salesman, so...) and we borrowed it a few times when we needed to move things that were too big for my Corolla (read: everything).  It was a nice vehicle, and the interior was designed really well.  I just felt like such an asshole every time I got into it, though.


it was also a 2 wheel drive being marketed to the Honda Element crowd.
 
2013-04-10 08:08:40 PM

Cyberluddite: The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop. There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s:


Done in one. I would absolutely buy the Yugo before I bought a Cimarron. I'd be getting much closer to what I paid for with the Yugo. I seem to recall those selling in the high twos brand new when they were around.
 
2013-04-10 08:09:32 PM

netgamer7k: [upload.wikimedia.org image 280x190]

What about this abomination to our eyes?


It's as though a New Beetle farked an El Camino and this was the offspring.
 
2013-04-10 08:09:52 PM
Make no fun of the Aztek. It's an excellent vehicle.
 
2013-04-10 08:09:57 PM

Cyberluddite: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'll tell ya, you still see a lot of them on the roads around here today. And no, this is not a hipster area (although I suppose that's what a hipster area would say).

FuturePastNow: The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.

Wow, I almost never see them around here--maybe one every few months or so, and that's it.  And, sadly, there's no shortage of hipsters around here, so I'm guessing that you're correct and it's not a hipster thing to own one "ironically."


.........yet.
 
2013-04-10 08:10:38 PM

FuturePastNow: The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.


Yes. I was surprised to see they only made 4,000 of them. I sure see a lot as well. Maybe central Illinoisans were easy to swindle into them.
 
2013-04-10 08:10:38 PM

NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"


cdn.hark.com

Approves
 
2013-04-10 08:10:50 PM

dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.


The sales figures given in the article aren't for the entire model run, but for the particular model years of those cars (2001 for the Catera, and 1991 for the Yugo), and presumably these are years after they should've already been killed off as poor sellers.  Though it looks like the sales of the Stude wagon are for the entire 3-year model run.
 
2013-04-10 08:10:51 PM
I nominate the Volkswagen Thing for one of the ugliest cars ever to make the road, although they looked fun to drive.
 
2013-04-10 08:11:02 PM
BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

www.diseno-art.com
 
2013-04-10 08:12:31 PM
I owned a K-car wagon back when I was in high school. I think my parents were ok with me having it because they knew it would repel the ladies, which it did.
 
2013-04-10 08:12:51 PM
Many, many, MANY years ago when the Yugo graced our country with it's ugly form I was tasked with installing the odd sunroof in them.  What amazed me was the fact that cutting a 17" x 35" hole in the roof, installing a clamping ring and a piece of glass, actually added rigidity to the roof.

The heating/ventilation controls, if you want to call them that, really didn't work or they didn't appear to be connected to anything.

What an utter turd that car was.
 
2013-04-10 08:13:15 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: .........yet.


Yeah, I guess we shouldn't give them any ideas.  It'll probably be the next hipster thing--I mean, imagine how many cases of PBR the average hipster could transport in one of those things.
 
2013-04-10 08:13:37 PM

bighoss: I nominate the Volkswagen Thing for one of the ugliest cars ever to make the road, although they looked fun to drive.


Yes, but VW knew they were ugly and used that as part of their advertising.
 
2013-04-10 08:15:38 PM

dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.


I think they're talking about the (final) model year only
 
2013-04-10 08:15:38 PM
The sad thing is the concept that ultimately became the Aztek was 10000 times better looking.  I suspect some assholes in marketing stepped in and forced more BRAND UNITY IDENTIFIER changes onto the final design.

www.sub5zero.com
 
2013-04-10 08:16:27 PM

bighoss: I nominate the Volkswagen Thing for one of the ugliest cars ever to make the road, although they looked fun to drive.


I had a friend who had one back in the day.  You are correct that it's at or near the top of any short list of the ugliest cars to ever hit the road.  You are incorrect in expecting that it was in any way fun to drive.  It was even less fun to drive than VW Beetle, though not as bad as driving a VW bus (which to this day remains the worst-driving vehicle that was ever allowed to be driven on public roads).
 
2013-04-10 08:16:29 PM

markie_farkie: Everything old is new again!

[l.yimg.com image 630x466]


[playswithcars.com image 400x273]


I thought of this mess - files.conceptcarz.com
 
2013-04-10 08:16:53 PM

bighoss: I nominate the Volkswagen Thing for one of the ugliest cars ever to make the road, although they looked fun to drive.


Those were fun little cars. A couple of brother I was friend with had one and I loved it.
 
2013-04-10 08:17:25 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-10 08:18:24 PM
I love reading about the delusion of GM with that cimarron.  theres a wealth of information out there on that horrible, failed attempt of a car.

Count me as one of the few people that legit love the plymouth prowler though.  I've always thought that was a really cool looking ride, much sweeter than the SSR or a few other cars trying to get into that retro look.
 
2013-04-10 08:19:02 PM

DeadPuppySociety: Studebaker hawk...YEAAH!


Studebaker Hawk can write the Lord's Prayer on the head of a pin!
 
2013-04-10 08:19:47 PM

Cyberluddite: Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...

I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas.  The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.


Yeah I've always heard that they were good cars...but that styling was...different. But again I think maybe thats why I like it. I sure as hell not going to say the same for the Juke...
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-10 08:22:32 PM

meteorite: Those were fun little cars. A couple of brother I was friend with had one and I loved it.


If by "fun" you mean a car that's so slow it felt like you were dragging an anchor while running on one cylinder, handled like Model T with 4 flat tires, had the fit and finish (and look) of a homemade duck blind, and assured you that you would always be, depending on season, freezing your ass off, sweating your nuts off, and/or soaking wet (while being buffetted by wind regardless of conditions), then yes, it was a lot of "fun."
 
2013-04-10 08:24:23 PM
I liked my Aztek. I could actually move stuff around in it. Sure, I looked like a chump, but I was a chump that could move stuff in my car. It meant that I could buy cheap furniture second-hand from people, since I could come pick it up. It wasn't a pick-up, but it was only two grand.
 
xcv
2013-04-10 08:25:38 PM
Only person I knew with an Aztec was a Peruvian descendant of the Inca aka my boss, so I never mentioned that I found it amusing.
 
2013-04-10 08:26:43 PM

Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]


www.pirate4x4.com

/hot
 
2013-04-10 08:27:20 PM

Jument: I owned a K-car wagon back when I was in high school. I think my parents were ok with me having it because they knew it would repel the ladies, which it did.


My dad bought an Aries-K back in 84. It got pretty good gas mileage and was pretty reliable for the first 80,000 miles or so. Then the carburetor took a shiat and lo and behold, they didn't manufacture it anymore, nor would any other carb fit on the rather odd manifold they had put on it. It sat for about six months. I went down there for a job, and took measurements on it, and machined an adapter/riser plate out of aluminium that would fit a Weber to it, and he got another 200,000 miles out of it before some drunk sideswiped it out of commission. Took a bit of dorking around with the throttle linkage, but he was happy.
 
2013-04-10 08:27:24 PM

netgamer7k: [upload.wikimedia.org image 280x190]

What about this abomination to our eyes?


That hideous thing was driven by an utter douche who ran for city commission where I lived. He was an evil bastard who owned one of those "HELP U SELL" realty joints. He had thin, pepperoni colored lips and shot his mouth off about the virtues of using property valuations to force people who owned $80-$100K houses to sell and move to more expensive houses so that landlords could "develop the (former) properties their their true potential". He did not win, his bidness failed, and I hope that farking car blew a rod through the hood.
 
2013-04-10 08:28:42 PM

dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.


Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.
 
2013-04-10 08:29:40 PM

Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.


Well, that's convenient that you've found a good use for it, since nobody will ever want to buy that thing off of you.  And I say that evan as a longtime Bimmer aficianado who likes damn near everything they've ever made.
 
2013-04-10 08:30:22 PM
                                                                        Shhhwing!
                                              i812.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-10 08:30:46 PM

atomic-age: dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.

Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.


actually, they are not for single years.

the figures for the catera and yugo are for the last 3 years of production.
 
2013-04-10 08:31:27 PM

Invisible Dynamite Monkey: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]

[www.pirate4x4.com image 436x330]



Driving one of these was perilous.

t0.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-10 08:33:33 PM
www.cars-directory.net
The current LucklessWonderMobile (except mine isn't in this good a shape)
 
2013-04-10 08:35:55 PM

dumbobruni: atomic-age: dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.

Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.

actually, they are not for single years.

the figures for the catera and yugo are for the last 3 years of production.


So why would they put a year model on them? Puzzling.

There was a guy in the city where I used to live who collected and restored Yugos. I am not kidding. I've got some crazy collections, but that is the lamest hobby ever. He drove a Yugo everywhere he went; had 4-8 of them at any given time. He always looked miserable on the road.
 
2013-04-10 08:36:38 PM

Alonjar: The reason the Cadillac Catera failed is because it was a farking Cadillac built on the cavalier platform... "lets slap our luxury emblem on the cheapest econobox General Motors makes!  Brilliant!"


Not quite. It was an Opel Omega with Cadillac badge. Unfortunately, they changed a couple things to make it more American, as in it rides like a couch with shiatty handling and auto trans.
When I lived in Germany, my work vehicle for a while was an Omega wagon with the 3.0 6 cyl engine and manual trans.
Talk about a sports wagon.

/here come the M5 and E63 wannabes
 
2013-04-10 08:38:30 PM

Ed Grubermann: bighoss: I nominate the Volkswagen Thing for one of the ugliest cars ever to make the road, although they looked fun to drive.

Yes, but VW knew they were ugly and used that as part of their advertising.


I will buy the kubelwagen, Mein Fuhrer!!
 
2013-04-10 08:39:21 PM
My brother drove an Aztek. He still swears that marketed properly, it could have saved Pontiac.

/We don't take him seriously.
//About anything.
 
2013-04-10 08:41:16 PM

atomic-age: dumbobruni: atomic-age: dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.

Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.

actually, they are not for single years.

the figures for the catera and yugo are for the last 3 years of production.

So why would they put a year model on them? Puzzling.

There was a guy in the city where I used to live who collected and restored Yugos. I am not kidding. I've got some crazy collections, but that is the lamest hobby ever. He drove a Yugo everywhere he went; had 4-8 of them at any given time. He always looked miserable on the road.


At the scottsdale Barrett-Jackson they sold a Yugo that had 350 miles.

Link
 
2013-04-10 08:49:06 PM

Invisible Dynamite Monkey: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]



/hot


The Ambiguously Gay Duo!
 
2013-04-10 08:51:23 PM
...The Studie Wagonaire had two problems - first, the gaskets around that sliding panel were, shall we say, bad.  Second, it was a Studebaker.  They started building them less than a year before Studie ended US production in December '63, and nobody wanted to be stuck with a car that seemed as if it would be an orphan momentarily.  Any of the Big Three would have had the time and money to try and fix it, but Studebaker was doomed, and it never had a chance.  They did keep making the Wagonaire in Canada, but it was mostly to run down parts supplies.

They had big plans, though - the Sceptre would have been the '65 replacement for the Hawk:
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-10 08:51:56 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-10 08:52:53 PM
I have a buddy from college that bought an Aztek brand new and has driven it ever since.  Just saw on FB he rolled 200k in it last week.  Two hundred thousand embarrassing miles.
 
2013-04-10 09:01:44 PM

Cyberluddite: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

Well, that's convenient that you've found a good use for it, since nobody will ever want to buy that thing off of you.  And I say that evan as a longtime Bimmer aficianado who likes damn near everything they've ever made.


It's if it's a relatively unmolested S54, I'll be first in line.
 
2013-04-10 09:02:21 PM

NotoriousW.O.P: My brother drove an Aztek. He still swears that marketed properly, it could have saved Pontiac.

/We don't take him seriously.
//About anything.


It wasn't a bad car and it kicked off the crossover market, it was just ugly as sin.

The concept was slightly better..

www.autosavant.com
 
2013-04-10 09:06:02 PM
Condoms prevent mini vans.
 
2013-04-10 09:06:33 PM
You know you're a real stud muffin riding in this:

www.speedflux.com
 
2013-04-10 09:09:03 PM
My dad was always into weird cars. Owned a 4Runner when they first came out, removable roof and all.
Bought my mom one of the first Fieros in our town. Might have been the first to hit the road here.
My wife has an Aztek and loves it! We still think it's ugly as home made sin, but it's comfortable, drives good, hauls shiate and gets decent mileage.
 
x23
2013-04-10 09:10:33 PM

Cyberluddite: The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop.  There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s


such a flop it stayed on the market for 7 years.
 
2013-04-10 09:11:13 PM
I almost bought an Edsel once. In my younger days I had a thing for big old luxury cars... the bigger & older the better.

So the '59 Edsel 4 door in gremlin green really caught my eye. Was in good shape too... the things were made out of battleship armor, so it hadn't rusted much.
I probably would have bought it if we could've kept it running long enough to get out of the car lot.
 
2013-04-10 09:12:15 PM

"What do you mean the Pontiac Aztek is 'bad'?"


cgdailydrive.com

 
2013-04-10 09:12:30 PM

thornhill: Besides being ugly, was there actually anything wrong with the Aztek? It just seemed like one of the many SUVs built on a minivan chassie that were popular at the time.


The Aztek's sins were skin deep. The Buick version was less ugly.
 
2013-04-10 09:13:35 PM

Erebus1954: [nozama.typepad.com image 640x480]
They don't make them like this anymore.


You think you hate it now, but wait till you drive it.
 
2013-04-10 09:15:17 PM

SurelyShirley: Alonjar: The reason the Cadillac Catera failed is because it was a farking Cadillac built on the cavalier platform... "lets slap our luxury emblem on the cheapest econobox General Motors makes!  Brilliant!"

Not quite. It was an Opel Omega with Cadillac badge. Unfortunately, they changed a couple things to make it more American, as in it rides like a couch with shiatty handling and auto trans.
When I lived in Germany, my work vehicle for a while was an Omega wagon with the 3.0 6 cyl engine and manual trans.
Talk about a sports wagon.


The UK traffic police used them as patrol/high speed pursuit cars. If you saw a white Vauxhall Omega in your mirrors you moved over, it was probably a cop.
 
2013-04-10 09:17:01 PM

x23: Cyberluddite: The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop.  There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s

such a flop it stayed on the market for 7 years.


It was still a joke to call it a Cadillac and it almost killed the brand name all together...
 
2013-04-10 09:20:29 PM
SurelyShirley

My sports wagon? 94 Volvo 940 Turbo. It's built like a farking tank. Someone rear-ended me about 8 months ago at 25 MPH. It picked my car up and spun it 90 deg. My rear bumper had a quarter sized piece of plastic missing. The other guys car was totaled.


/I laughed.
 
2013-04-10 09:22:24 PM
They left out the '61 DeSoto which only sold 3,034 units. De Soto was discontinued 45 days after the '61 were introduced. It is by far one of the weirdest looking cars of the 1960s.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1960-1961-desoto3.htm
 
2013-04-10 09:24:02 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com

The Tucker 48 would like a recount.
 
2013-04-10 09:24:45 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]


4.bp.blogspot.com

A friend's dad had one of those when I was a kid.  I had no idea that it was a vehicle of significance.  I just knew it was weird lookin'.
 
2013-04-10 09:25:31 PM
I liked the Aztek (always thought it looked like a Mars buggy). Would have bought one, but Consumer Reports rankings didn't give it great reliabilty.
IMO the Honda Element is the "ugly" one from that time.

/As far as the Thing goes, you guys do realize that car was based on a Nazi jeep, right?
 
2013-04-10 09:27:52 PM

fusillade762: when GM unveiled the Aztek, says he'll never forget the gasp he heard from the crowd

[onscreencars.com image 494x282]


farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2013-04-10 09:29:23 PM

markie_farkie: The sad thing is the concept that ultimately became the Aztek was 10000 times better looking.  I suspect some assholes in marketing stepped in and forced more BRAND UNITY IDENTIFIER changes onto the final design.

[www.sub5zero.com image 850x505]


I saw one of these today and was like "what is that?"  Basically the same car but with AWD and better looking.
img2.netcarshow.com
2013 Subaru Crosstrek
 
2013-04-10 09:36:26 PM

Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.


I understand that it has almost perfect 50/50 weight balance between front and rear axles. I've always wanted to take one for a spin, but never had the cash for the opportunity.
 
2013-04-10 09:38:13 PM

thornhill: Besides being ugly, was there actually anything wrong with the Aztek? It just seemed like one of the many SUVs built on a minivan chassie that were popular at the time.


The official review.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/pontiac-aztek-gt-road-test

The answer:  not much wrong with it.  Basically the first major attempt at a cross over.  Before its time and a little ugly.  They made something very similar in a buick model with better styling and it sold just fine.
 
2013-04-10 09:45:48 PM

LucklessWonder: [www.cars-directory.net image 254x177]
The current LucklessWonderMobile (except mine isn't in this good a shape)


Hey, I have a 1993 Ford Aerostar! It's white with rust at the bottom. No heat or AC and the front windows no longer go up and down. Also, only the AM radio works, not the FM. However, it does run, and we can't afford to get anything better yet. Had it five years now.

Her dad has an Aztek. It's a black one, so while ugly, it isn't that bad. And it's actually a really good vehicle.
 
2013-04-10 09:46:28 PM
media-cdn.tripadvisor.com
Want.
 
2013-04-10 09:47:19 PM
The whole soft/fine Corinthian leather thing - It didn't sound like I remembered it.

I was right. It's ~rich~ Corinthian leather.

/It's nice being right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsg97bxuJnc
 
2013-04-10 09:49:01 PM
What, no pictures of the Aztek's greatest feature?

blog.honk.com

The suicide tent!
 
2013-04-10 09:49:13 PM
s4.postimg.org
 
2013-04-10 09:52:25 PM
Count me in as another person who thinks the Aztek isn't bad. The goal of a car is to transport people and not fall apart on itself & as long as it did both, I see no reason to complain about it. The only mistake I can see was marketing it as a Pontiac despite it not being sporty at all.
 
xcv
2013-04-10 09:53:44 PM

acereraser: What, no pictures of the Aztek's greatest feature?

[blog.honk.com image 550x358]

The suicide tent!


Is it true the Aztek had to be parked at an incline, not level ground, or else rain would get inside the tent?
 
2013-04-10 09:54:36 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: That was kind of my point. Sales figures are useless without production numbers.


Even that is fairly useless, as I am sure they sold ALL of the models they built; its just when, and for how little.

/I only say this as I bought a brand spanking new Yugo (yes, I was sober) from the dealership, just a good two years after it had been sitting on the lot, and for the princely sum of $500 cash and the promise not to ever bring it back for service.
 
2013-04-10 09:56:57 PM
s17.postimg.org
 
2013-04-10 09:59:32 PM

puckrock2000: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x435]

The Tucker 48 would like a recount.


Man that thing is still beautiful.  If they can revive the Indian name for motorcycles you'd think someone could buy the name for the Tucker for a new brand of technically advanced vehicles.  Maybe Tesla thought of that before settling on Tesla.
 
2013-04-10 09:59:59 PM
I owned a K-car wagon back when I was in high school. I think my parents were ok with me having it because they knew it would repel the ladies, which it did.

I too had a K-car in high school. Bench seats really facilitate the highway head. And a K-Car still beat a No-Car.
 
2013-04-10 10:01:22 PM

Tellingthem: atomic-age: dumbobruni: atomic-age: dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.

Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.

actually, they are not for single years.

the figures for the catera and yugo are for the last 3 years of production.

So why would they put a year model on them? Puzzling.

There was a guy in the city where I used to live who collected and restored Yugos. I am not kidding. I've got some crazy collections, but that is the lamest hobby ever. He drove a Yugo everywhere he went; had 4-8 of them at any given time. He always looked miserable on the road.

At the scottsdale Barrett-Jackson they sold a Yugo that had 350 miles.Link


 I would assume with the abruptness of Yugos collapse and the really slow sales, there are probably more than a few zero-mile cars out there. They sat around for years until the dealers gave up.

 I bought one with fewer miles than that from the dealer. It was $500, about two years after they were discontinued, and they still had three on the back lot, along with one brand new one they were simply stripping for parts to keep up the last of the warranty work on already sold cars.
 
2013-04-10 10:06:51 PM

cgraves67: FuturePastNow: The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.

Yes. I was surprised to see they only made 4,000 of them. I sure see a lot as well. Maybe central Illinoisans were easy to swindle into them.


We Central Illinoisans are not renowned for our good taste. Wikipedia says they made 119,694 Azteks.

Look, it's an ugly car. But what Pontiac was trying to do is very understandable; they were trying to sell a minivan to younger buyers. In doing so, they created the CUV. Every crossover you see on the road owes its roots to the Aztek.
 
2013-04-10 10:17:57 PM

jtown: Tsar_Bomba1: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

A friend's dad had one of those when I was a kid.  I had no idea that it was a vehicle of significance.  I just knew it was weird lookin'.


My dad had a 1964 Studebaker Avanti that he picked up pretty cheap.  The original engine had been swapped out with a 327 from a Corvette, the fiberglass had some cracks in it, and someone had put these ridiculous pimp-mobile rims on it.

I drove it to prom!
 
2013-04-10 10:18:48 PM

NewWorldDan: I owned a K-car wagon back when I was in high school. I think my parents were ok with me having it because they knew it would repel the ladies, which it did.

I too had a K-car in high school. Bench seats really facilitate the highway head. And a K-Car still beat a No-Car.


Bench seats were the greatest.  My friend in high school had a Chevy Biscayne that could seat 8 comfortably.  Thing was a tank on wheels.
 
2013-04-10 10:22:13 PM

Cyberluddite: I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas. The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.


And yet, people today are buying Nissan Cubes, Kia Souls, Scion XBs, and various other cars that are just as "ugly"

I was never really offended by the Aztek, but I don't know much about it either. I do like the idea of a regular size car you could comfortably fold out a mattress in for camping. That's the only thing I remember about the commercials.

I would take a new model cube-shaped or funny shaped are with all the features over the very "pretty" car I have now.
 
2013-04-10 10:22:35 PM
A friend of mine bought a used Aztek. Sure, for people who care how people see them driving, I guess it's an ugly vehicle.  But it had a nice interior, and a huge amount of room on the inside. From the inside, it's an awesome family car, especially for it's time.
 
2013-04-10 10:25:07 PM

puckrock2000: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x435]

The Tucker 48 would like a recount.


That wasn't so much a flop as much as a car that was squeezed out of existence before it could really hit the market.

A little 1940s car humor
Three guys were talking about buying their wives cars.
One said, "I'm gonna buy my wife a Kaiser and surprise her."
His friend said, "I'm gonna buy my wife a Frazer and amaze her."
The third guy said, "I'm gonna buy my wife a Tucker."

/My grandfather told me that joke.
//I miss him profoundly.
 
2013-04-10 10:29:00 PM
The Asstek would probably have sold much better if it was still in production when Breaking Bad came out.

Also from the side and rear a Preass looks like a lowered Asstek.
 
2013-04-10 10:32:17 PM
I actually liked the Aztec. A friend of mine had one, it was great for hauling all of our gear for camping without having a larger than necessary vehicle. It drove nice and had a nice interior.

If people think the Aztec is ugly, they need to check out the Honda Element. I can't find ANY redeeming qualities about that vehicle.
 
2013-04-10 10:35:36 PM
I had a buddy that had a Chevy Citation hatchback that he practically had to give away to get someone to take it.
 
2013-04-10 10:36:33 PM

acereraser: What, no pictures of the Aztek's greatest feature?

[blog.honk.com image 550x358]

The suicide tent!



The tent did not seal tight enough to the body to keep out Mosquitos and ants.
 
2013-04-10 10:36:47 PM

Oldiron_79: The Asstek would probably have sold much better if it was still in production when Breaking Bad came out.


Nothing says increased sales like when a vehicle is used as a symbolic representation of total failure.
 
2013-04-10 10:41:41 PM
i306.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-10 10:42:40 PM

Cyberluddite: NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"

Proving the power of good marketing once again, those turds were actually good sellers.  You used to see them around everywhere.  My uncle even bought one brand new back in the day (though I was disappointed that his had velour upholstery--he didn't spring for the "fine Coreeeeeeeeeenthian leather").  It was a total piece of shiat.  He must've had it for only about 40K miles before it started burning a quart of oil about every 100 miles and leaking every fluid it had wherever it was parked--when it ran at all.  I think he ultimately sold it to some illegal immigrant Mexicans for 200 bucks or something.



My father had one in black. I was really young, but I remember we called it the "Black Bomb" because it was such a piece of shiat!
 
2013-04-10 10:43:38 PM

jonny_q: Cyberluddite: I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas. The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.

And yet, people today are buying Nissan Cubes, Kia Souls, Scion XBs, and various other cars that are just as "ugly"

I was never really offended by the Aztek, but I don't know much about it either. I do like the idea of a regular size car you could comfortably fold out a mattress in for camping. That's the only thing I remember about the commercials.

I would take a new model cube-shaped or funny shaped are with all the features over the very "pretty" car I have now.


i LOVE my scion xB (2005 extra-square model, not the more mature-looking newer models). and i like the souls. but something about the cube is extra ugly...perhaps it's the rounded windows?

i've always had a thing for the odd vehicles. my first car was a 1984 honda crx that was 9 years old with 125k miles when i got it...5 speed...got around 40 mpg! i miss that car still
 
2013-04-10 10:48:28 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]


4.bp.blogspot.com

The Avanti was produced for over 40 years.

/ So far
// It...it's beautiful
/// Want
 
2013-04-10 10:57:35 PM

bungle_jr: jonny_q: Cyberluddite: I think it was actually pretty well liked by those who bought them, and some of the features and characteristics seemed to be pretty good ideas. The main problem was that it was so goddamn fugly that most people wouldn't buy it even if the thing had features that would serve you champagne and caviar and give you road head while you drove it.

And yet, people today are buying Nissan Cubes, Kia Souls, Scion XBs, and various other cars that are just as "ugly"

I was never really offended by the Aztek, but I don't know much about it either. I do like the idea of a regular size car you could comfortably fold out a mattress in for camping. That's the only thing I remember about the commercials.

I would take a new model cube-shaped or funny shaped are with all the features over the very "pretty" car I have now.

i LOVE my scion xB (2005 extra-square model, not the more mature-looking newer models). and i like the souls. but something about the cube is extra ugly...perhaps it's the rounded windows?

i've always had a thing for the odd vehicles. my first car was a 1984 honda crx that was 9 years old with 125k miles when i got it...5 speed...got around 40 mpg! i miss that car still


Amen on the xB. I'm on my second 2005 after the first one got totaled in a wreck that my entire family just walked away from. Its big enough on the inside that I regularly haul three adults, two kids, a 50 pound dog, and luggage for everyone in it. When my mom is with me and she has her wheelchair I just put the backseat down and toss it in without worrying about folding it up or anything. I got a 55" LCD that was still in the box home in it. Not only that but I get around 30 mpg and can easily fit in parking spots that lots of people with normal sedans can't even fit into. Sure, the looks are something you either love or hate (with most people falling into the hate category) but I like it buying different and love everything else about it. I even bought one of the bright yellow Release Series ones that they only made 2500 of. I never lose that thing in a parking lot.
 
2013-04-10 10:59:14 PM

jaytkay: Tsar_Bomba1: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

The Avanti was produced for over 40 years.

/ So far
// It...it's beautiful
/// Want


It looks like it's making a sad-face.
 
2013-04-10 11:13:25 PM

jaytkay: Tsar_Bomba1: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x304]

The Avanti was produced for over 40 years.

/ So far
// It...it's beautiful
/// Want


And what was wrong with the Avanti?

Back when I was a kid my father was going to buy one from this guy he knew. The guy had a large garage that he kept it in with 4 other cars and the garage caught on fire and destroyed all of the cars a few weeks before my father planed to buy it.
 
2013-04-10 11:19:13 PM

Amusement: [s4.postimg.org image 619x421]


"New, nifty, thrifty?" You couldn't beat a Scotsman!

www.classiccarcatalogue.com
 
2013-04-10 11:21:41 PM

puckrock2000: The Tucker 48 would like a recount.


Is that what that thing is? I used to have a Micro Machine of it.
 
2013-04-10 11:23:20 PM
They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

files.conceptcarz.com If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.
 
2013-04-10 11:25:31 PM
Regarding the Aztec, I understand that it was very successful in the underestimated lesbian market. Same for Subaru wagons, but Subaru actually worked it into some print ads. Kudos to them.

As for the Yugo, I had an awesome idea for a slogan of a Yugo-only repair shop.

You break
We fix
Yugo

They never got the market share that would support such a garage, though.
 
2013-04-10 11:28:31 PM
Soon to be joined by the Nissan Murano Convertible.  The answer to a question no one asked.
 
2013-04-10 11:32:14 PM

JK8Fan: I had a buddy that had a Chevy Citation hatchback that he practically had to give away to get someone to take it.


Youd have to pay me money to take one off your hands.
 
2013-04-10 11:32:42 PM
No list such as this would be complete without the 1980 Corvette.
 
2013-04-10 11:33:51 PM

brandent: puckrock2000: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x435]

The Tucker 48 would like a recount.

Man that thing is still beautiful.  If they can revive the Indian name for motorcycles you'd think someone could buy the name for the Tucker for a new brand of technically advanced vehicles.  Maybe Tesla thought of that before settling on Tesla.


I have an relative that is like one of Tucker's grandchildren, or something close like that.  The family is super bitter about the way the bigger automakers sued him and the company into submission.  The legal issues were what killed the Torpedo, not sales.  You'll never see a new Tucker Torpedo built, nor any sort of licensing of the brand or designs.
 
2013-04-10 11:34:30 PM

cgraves67: FuturePastNow: The Aztek may be ugly, but I still see a lot of them.

Yes. I was surprised to see they only made 4,000 of them. I sure see a lot as well. Maybe central Illinoisans were easy to swindle into them.


There are at least ten of them running around Ames, IA. I suspect George White was rarin' to deal.
 
2013-04-10 11:43:35 PM
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 

This is what I drove in high school.  Why Dad let me, I'm not sure...

I miss that car.
 
2013-04-10 11:43:39 PM

Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...


It was loud and proud, to be sure. For some reason, most of them seemed to be in chrome yellow, hardly subtle. But I liked the idea you could camp out in the Quasimodo-like hump. It was like a Dodge Caravan was trying to be the ass-baby of a Ford Focus.
 
2013-04-10 11:58:26 PM
Ever try buying parts for a 3rd Gen TT RX-7?  One of the most exciting cars ever made, but a flop as far as sales went.

Try 500 total US sales in 1995.
 
2013-04-11 12:00:35 AM

LucklessWonder: www.cars-directory.net
The current LucklessWonderMobile (except mine isn't in this good a shape)


I used to own a Ford Aerostar with the AWD.

It had a few good points.  Easy to drive with good visibility. The AWD and good balance makes them surefooted in snow and rain. Reasonable gas mileage.  Very roomy inside, compared to a similar sized truck.  You can pull the seats out carry 4X8 sheets of plywood and most furniture.  And cops basically look right through them.

The disadvantage is, they have a very light truck supervention and come with what amounts to large car tires. They are low to the ground.  All that rules out most off road travel unless you like replacing tires and spending $$$ to have your suspension repaired.  And of course van repairs cost about 50% more than cars and trucks.
 
2013-04-11 12:01:05 AM
If they sold so few Aztecs, why do I constantly see them on the road?

/Rosie O'Donnell was a fan...

mygundepot.com
 
2013-04-11 12:02:04 AM
                                                          Recalled for magic carpet burns
                                         i812.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-11 12:04:05 AM
Next one to be added to the list:  The 2014 Jeep Cherokee

I took the badging off my XJ when they unveiled this POS
 
2013-04-11 12:06:01 AM
Another Aztek owner here. I got to drive one around in high school and most of college, and I have to say I loved it.  It was certainly a form over function vehicle.  It had a few flaws here and there, but was honestly the easiest parallel parking cars I've ever had, held up pretty well seeing as though it was driven by an idiot high schooler, and it could haul all my crap from college and back every semester when anyone with similar levels of crap would get a trailer.
 
2013-04-11 12:07:24 AM

Mojongo: Shhhwing!
                                              [i812.photobucket.com image 333x464]

1976--117,244

Don't forget about the Pinto and the Vega. This beat them soundly:

upload.wikimedia.org

I never passed one in a Corvair...
upload.wikimedia.org

The Corvair would probably lift off the road if I tried.
 
2013-04-11 12:17:10 AM

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x470] If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.


Bite your tongue. That is a Camaro under there.
 
2013-04-11 12:18:36 AM

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x470] If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.


Even a whacko company like Avanti would not want a car based on a rustang.
 
2013-04-11 12:20:53 AM

Cyberluddite: The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop.  There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s:

[eagleradio97.files.wordpress.com image 531x274]

It was basically a 4-banger Chevy Cavalier with leather uphostery, though it clost to twice the price of a Chevy (probably the equivalent of somewhere between $30K and $40K in 2013 dollars, I would guess), and a complete piece of shiat.  Anybody who bought one (including my friend's dad, who bought the first one I ever saw in person) was justifiably pointed at and laughed at by all other drivers.


The Cimarron was a flop, but not a Catera-level flop. They sold 25,000 the first year, about one-third of what they'd hoped for, and they sold that model for seven years. Not Edsel-category awful by any means.
 
2013-04-11 12:22:49 AM

Cyberluddite: NewportBarGuy: [i50.tinypic.com image 640x371]

""Soft Corinthian Leather!"

Proving the power of good marketing once again, those turds were actually good sellers.  You used to see them around everywhere.  My uncle even bought one brand new back in the day (though I was disappointed that his had velour upholstery--he didn't spring for the "fine Coreeeeeeeeeenthian leather").  It was a total piece of shiat.  He must've had it for only about 40K miles before it started burning a quart of oil about every 100 miles and leaking every fluid it had wherever it was parked--when it ran at all.  I think he ultimately sold it to some illegal immigrant Mexicans for 200 bucks or something.


AMC cars in the '70s were unbelievably awful (most American cars were, but AMC set the pace). We had a Hornet station wagon as a loaner once when our Toyota was in the shop. What a piece of crap.
 
2013-04-11 12:43:18 AM

The Irresponsible Captain: The Corvair would probably lift off the road if I tried.

Years past when, it was all I could afford, I drove a 65 Corvair,  four one barrel carbs 180 CID, with sandbags in the front storage area, thanks Ralph for the heads up, never had a problem with positive sway on a turn. Then one day on a four lane divided highway in a slow left turn another Corvair attempted to pass me and side rolled three times. No one seriously hurt but that along with the fact that the pushrod seals leaked more oil than the Exxon Valdez got it traded for an even less practical 1956 TR3 Triumph. Don't even get me started on aluminum block, teflon cylinder coated Vegas or Bic Pintos. The best low end cars were actually designed and marketed as such, original VW Bug, Morris Minor, Datsun B210, Honda Civic, Henry's T & first flathead V8 Fords . Things just don't work that way these days it seems.
 
2013-04-11 12:43:31 AM

Cyberluddite: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

Well, that's convenient that you've found a good use for it, since nobody will ever want to buy that thing off of you.  And I say that evan as a longtime Bimmer aficianado who likes damn near everything they've ever made.


Don't listen to the naysayers. I'd buy it off you in a heartbeat. Wife would kill me, but I'd buy it.
 
2013-04-11 12:47:35 AM

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x470] If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.


I'm afraid to zoom in. I'm pretty sure the guy taking the picture (reflected in the window) is naked.
 
2013-04-11 12:47:50 AM
I swear I remember that a car dealer in Milwaukee who sold Yugos during their last year available here in the US actually had a BOGO (buy one get one) sale. You paid full price for a Yugo and you get another one free. THAT'S how unpopular they were at the time.

IIRC, the Yugo used a Fiat 128 powerplant. As someone who (regretfully) bought a 1974 Fiat 128, I can testify that no bigger piece of shiat existed in the annals of car-dom. Here is what I endured with my (purchased new) Fiat 128 in the first (and only) year of ownership:

1. On the 1 mile trip back from the dealer after taking initial delivery, the driver's side window crank came off in my hand

2.The rear window defroster lower half NEVER worked. The dealer ordered the replacement part (wires) for the defroster and the part NEVER arrived as of the day I sold the car, one year later.

3. The door locks had plastic slides where the key would slide in, instead of metal. As a result, whenever it snowed, the locks froze over and you had to thaw them in order to insert the key and unlock the door.

4. The car refused to start below freezing - period. I had a four speed and the car had to be push started or jumped every time (remember that this car was less than one year old)

5. The manual transmission had to be replaced TWICE in that first year.

The sad thing is that it was a blast to drive - handled really great, had a shiatload of room in a small car, nice vinyl seats, and was fun to drive...WHEN it was running. Traded it in on a 1976 Chevy Malibu...which was near totaled with 4K on the odometer by a drunk teenager while it was parked on the street...4 days before my first wedding.

/I suck at cars, apparently.
 
2013-04-11 12:49:11 AM
My first car was a 1965 Checker Marathon. Two tone silver and blue. Still have it sitting in storage. Put over 130.000 miles on it..I only drive it a few times in the summer when I go back to Kalamazoo to take it out of the barn.. My buddies and I had a lot of fun in that back seat in the summer time in South Haven..
 
2013-04-11 12:52:55 AM
The Aztek is awesome.
I love mine, and I'd buy another one for a second car in a second.
you can keep all the stupid identical looking crap cars you have.
 
2013-04-11 12:53:56 AM
www.classiccarart.us

This is an Edsel. Can't you just hear the car calling for a lick?

/link is hot like the car is not
 
2013-04-11 12:55:24 AM

Ima4nic8or: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x470] If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.

Bite your tongue. That is a Camaro under there.


I may be wrong, but I think Studebaker used a shortened Lark convertible frame under the Avanti. And they used Studebaker V8s (normally aspirated in the R1, and supercharged in the R2). But around '65 Studebaker quit making V8s and they began using Chevy small blocks.
 
2013-04-11 01:02:01 AM

rugsucka: Next one to be added to the list:  The 2014 Jeep Cherokee

I took the badging off my XJ when they unveiled this POS


OMFG that thing is hideous!
 
2013-04-11 01:02:23 AM

markie_farkie: Everything old is new again!

[l.yimg.com image 630x466]


[playswithcars.com image 400x273]



I'm getting a kick because I just bought a GMC Envoy XUV.  It was too nice to pass up.
 
2013-04-11 01:02:39 AM

BrianGriffin: 2.The rear window defroster lower half NEVER worked.

Why did a Yugo have a rear window defroster?... So when you were pushing them in the winter you could keep your hands warm, sometimes.
 
2013-04-11 01:03:05 AM

Jclark666: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

I'm afraid to zoom in. I'm pretty sure the guy taking the picture (reflected in the window) is naked.


No he's not, you prevert.  He's wearing a jacket.
 
2013-04-11 01:05:40 AM

Slayinit: It's ~rich~ Corinthian leather.


Came here to post that. I'm also fairly certain that they just made up the name Corinthian leather because it sounded nice.
 
2013-04-11 01:10:29 AM

The Irresponsible Captain: I never passed one in a Corvair...  The Corvair would probably lift off the road if I tried.


Heh... as much as I love my Corvair, this actually happens. I was driving on the highway at around 100 mph with the top down, feeling like the king of the world, when suddenly the steering wheel just went loose in my hands like it wasn't connected to anything, and the front end of the car lifted up slightly. My mouth suddenly tasted like hot copper and I nearly soiled my fine vinyl seats, and I drove home at about 40 mph.
 
2013-04-11 01:20:50 AM
1963 Studebaker Wagonaire Commercial With Mr.Ed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFl23P30bNA
 
2013-04-11 02:09:23 AM

netgamer7k: What about this abomination to our eyes?


I like those. Could do withougt the screaming yellow.... But that, dropped 2", add silver.rims with a murder black.paintjob, and me likey.
 
2013-04-11 02:13:35 AM

skinink: "What do you mean the Pontiac Aztek is 'bad'?"
[cgdailydrive.com image 720x429]


It's the car equivalent of the tighty whities they make him wear allot like he did in Malcom in the Middle.
 
2013-04-11 02:18:53 AM

LucklessWonder: The current LucklessWonderMobile (except mine isn't in this good a shape)


I don't believe any of those still run.... My gawd what a clunkin hunk of shiat.
 
2013-04-11 02:35:20 AM

fusillade762: when GM unveiled the Aztek, says he'll never forget the gasp he heard from the crowd

[onscreencars.com image 494x282]


I came for this.
 
2013-04-11 02:39:53 AM
The moral of this article and indeed of this thread is that the American Car industry and GM in particular are like the guys on Jackass. Constantly yelling "Watch this!" and nearly killing themselves.
 
2013-04-11 02:51:53 AM

brandent: thornhill: Besides being ugly, was there actually anything wrong with the Aztek? It just seemed like one of the many SUVs built on a minivan chassie that were popular at the time.

The official review.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/pontiac-aztek-gt-road-test

The answer:  not much wrong with it.  Basically the first major attempt at a cross over.  Before its time and a little ugly.  They made something very similar in a buick model with better styling and it sold just fine.


I always heard from the body shop guys that rear end collisions were extremelly expensive to repair.
 
2013-04-11 02:59:25 AM

Mojongo: Shhhwing!
                                              [i812.photobucket.com image 333x464]


Would love to have been in the ad agency meeting when they came up with that concept.

Adman: the Pacer is an abomination to every design aesthetic known to man.
Adman2: we'll have to counter this with something powerful
Adman3: Got it.  We'll make a woman's ass the focal point of the picture, and bigger than the car itself
Admen: Brilliant!
 
2013-04-11 04:04:10 AM

Alonjar: The reason the Cadillac Catera failed is because it was a farking Cadillac built on the cavalier platform... "lets slap our luxury emblem on the cheapest econobox General Motors makes!  Brilliant!"


See also: Jaguar X-Type, which is basically a Mondeo with a tarted up body.
 
2013-04-11 04:14:23 AM

Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]


i've seen that model only three times. i was excited as hell the first time, looking forward to seeing many more. that is one sexy beast of a car. i love that car and i envy your ride. enjoy in good health you lucky farker you!


--- Chevrolet Chevette: a more miserable pathetic car i've never driven. simply horrible. i inherited one. the steering wheel was at a strange angle, it was made that way, very off putting. that car took five minutes to get up to highway speed and heaven help you when you needed braking power. simply terrible deathmobile. may they all rot in hell.
 
2013-04-11 04:14:59 AM

chicagogasman: My buddies and I had a lot of fun in that back seat


Good for you, being so comfortable with your sexuality so many decades before the Gay Pride movement.
 
2013-04-11 04:32:38 AM

KrispyKritter: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]

i've seen that model only three times. i was excited as hell the first time, looking forward to seeing many more. that is one sexy beast of a car. i love that car and i envy your ride. enjoy in good health you lucky farker you!


--- Chevrolet Chevette: a more miserable pathetic car i've never driven. simply horrible. i inherited one. the steering wheel was at a strange angle, it was made that way, very off putting. that car took five minutes to get up to highway speed and heaven help you when you needed braking power. simply terrible deathmobile. may they all rot in hell.


I'm going to guess a late C3 to a mid C4. Something from 1978 to 1991. Dark days for the Corvette.
 
2013-04-11 06:19:42 AM
Know what bums me out about modern vehicles? There's very little Sport Utility in SUV's. They're all sporty looking minivans I wouldn't trust on a rough shoulder in the rain.

Trucks have no weight over the rear wheels, while being rear wheel drive. And having an open bed has a whole slew of problems of its own. How the hell does anybody standing driving one? Even the biggest heaviest trucks weigh all of like 5 pounds over the rear wheels. Cut a hard fart when it's raining and you break traction.

Not that I can afford a new vehicle anyways. I'll probably drive this piece of shiat Ranger until the wheels fall off.

/Don't tell my Ranger I spoke poorly of her, she'll blow another head gasket
//In truth it's not a horrible truck, it just has absolutely no low-end torque and is a truck. Never realized how horrible trucks are until I bought one.
 
2013-04-11 06:36:21 AM
There are vehicles far uglier than the Pontiac Aztek on the road.  Behold:


Scion B

i50.tinypic.com


Nissan Cube

i47.tinypic.com


I'd take an Aztek over these two ugly farkers any day.
 
2013-04-11 06:51:46 AM

LucklessWonder: [www.cars-directory.net image 254x177]
The current LucklessWonderMobile (except mine isn't in this good a shape)


A friend of mine had am Aerostar. I called it the Dustbuster.
 
2013-04-11 06:52:47 AM
am = an.
 
2013-04-11 07:17:03 AM

Notabunny: KrispyKritter: --- Chevrolet Chevette: a more miserable pathetic car i've never driven. simply horrible. i inherited one. the steering wheel was at a strange angle, it was made that way, very off putting. that car took five minutes to get up to highway speed and heaven help you when you needed braking power. simply terrible deathmobile. may they all rot in hell.

I'm going to guess a late C3 to a mid C4. Something from 1978 to 1991. Dark days for the Corvette.


Go back and reread that a little more carefully.
 
2013-04-11 07:57:12 AM

Xenomech: There are vehicles far uglier than the Pontiac Aztek on the road.  Behold:


Scion B

[i50.tinypic.com image 433x280]


Nissan Cube

[i47.tinypic.com image 470x265]


I'd take an Aztek over these two ugly farkers any day.


My scion is probably the most reliable vehicle I've owned in years.
 
2013-04-11 07:57:23 AM

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: Slayinit: It's ~rich~ Corinthian leather.

Came here to post that. I'm also fairly certain that they just made up the name Corinthian leather because it sounded nice.


Ricardo admitted that point blank in an interview on a late night talk show.
 
2013-04-11 08:01:58 AM
Looking over this thread, my first thought was " Damn those are some ugly cars. Who the hell green lighted that?"
My second thought was "At least some manufacturers were trying different things. So many cars look the same today."
 
2013-04-11 08:03:18 AM
They must have sold more than 5000 Azteks.  I used to see tons of them and still see them quite frequently.  Unless they sold a large percentage of those 5000 in Pittsburgh, known for its taste.
 
2013-04-11 08:22:53 AM
My Yugo ran great for the several years I owned it. The only reason I don't still have it is that it was the small things that started going. I was being nickle and dimed by lights, or switches, or heater blowers.

Car ran great, had the loudest production stereo I've owned (although the one in my wife's current truck is louder), and gave me an enduring internet handle (nineteen years and counting). I don't think I ever had to have it towed anywhere for any reason.

I think the key was to wait about 10 years and buy one of the ones that was still running. The design was good, they were just produced in Yugoslavia for cripes' sake. Consistency in production was never a strong suit of the former Communist countries.
 
2013-04-11 09:04:24 AM
Over the years my family had several GM oddball models... Corvair, Buick Gran National (not a bad car at all), step mom had a Buick Reatta. It seemed like a slightly less failing version of that Catera thing. Not bad vehicles, the GN could have been a keeper. The 80's should get a pass as the entire decade basically sucked for cars.

/not buying the Aztek sales number, way too low
 
2013-04-11 09:27:14 AM

CognaciousThunk: Buick Gran Nationa

l

Not much finer for the money in that time.  A nice restored one will set you back a bit.
 
2013-04-11 09:38:43 AM

Ima4nic8or: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: They were still making the Avanti as recently as 2001.

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x470] If my memory serves me right, it's a Mustang underneath. But it cost 100,000 dollars at the time.

Bite your tongue. That is a Camaro under there.


Yeah that windshield screams Camaro.

/but the question is, did you consider that an insult to Mustangs, or a slight against Camaros?
 
2013-04-11 09:40:58 AM

Cyberluddite: VW bus (which to this day remains the worst-driving vehicle that was ever allowed to be driven on public roads).


Actually, as long as there wasn't a crosswind, the Bus was quite comfortable to drive long distances. On the other hand, as someone with a learner's permit at the time, driving it through Wyoming on a family trip was... interesting. At least the Bus in question had been repowered with a six-cylinder Corvair engine, so it didn't have trouble climbing.
 
2013-04-11 09:44:38 AM

Victoly: Notabunny: KrispyKritter: --- Chevrolet Chevette: a more miserable pathetic car i've never driven. simply horrible. i inherited one. the steering wheel was at a strange angle, it was made that way, very off putting. that car took five minutes to get up to highway speed and heaven help you when you needed braking power. simply terrible deathmobile. may they all rot in hell.

I'm going to guess a late C3 to a mid C4. Something from 1978 to 1991. Dark days for the Corvette.

Go back and reread that a little more carefully.


D'oh! Yes, all days were dark days for the Chevy Chevette.
 
2013-04-11 09:56:17 AM
I can't believe they only sold 5,020 Azteks.  5,000 of those must have been sold in SE Michigan with the employee discount plan...cause I see one of those abortions every day.

My son called the Aztek when it came out, a "Stormtrooper Car"..."cause it looks like something Stormtroopers would get out of"

Made sense to me.
 
2013-04-11 10:08:35 AM
Let's not forget the 1923 Chevrolet Series M Copper-Cooled. According to wikipedia, "Only a few made it to the sales floor, only to be recalled and destroyed by Chevrolet."
 
2013-04-11 10:59:17 AM

markie_farkie: Cyberluddite: Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Cimarron--as shown in my post up there at the top of this thread?  That was essentially a rebadged Chevy Cavalier. The Catera, as I understand it, was actually built in GM's division in Germany on an Opel platform.  I don't if that's any better, of course.

You are correct, sir.. The Catera was a decent car, just piss-poorly marketed, and at the time, people were fleeing to SUVs in droves, so a dinky 4-door Bimmer wannabe was basically screwed from the get-go.


Can confirm -- Owned a '97 Catera in around 2000.  Good little car, handled well for a Cadillac.  Without it there'd be no CTS.
 
2013-04-11 11:07:25 AM

atomic-age: dumbobruni: atomic-age: dumbobruni: sales figures are wrong.

the Yugo GV is listed as only selling 4400 cars, but Yugo actually sold over 140,000 of them.

Cadillac sold almost 100,000 Cateras, not under 10k as this "article" claims.

Notice that there is a *year* model next to each one. That number is not for the full production run.

actually, they are not for single years.

the figures for the catera and yugo are for the last 3 years of production.

So why would they put a year model on them? Puzzling.

There was a guy in the city where I used to live who collected and restored Yugos. I am not kidding. I've got some crazy collections, but that is the lamest hobby ever. He drove a Yugo everywhere he went; had 4-8 of them at any given time. He always looked miserable on the road.


I saw a story on TV about an artist that would buy old Yugos and turn them into art. He had a couple Yugos he drove around in they were of course about 90% non factory parts in them.
 
RJB
2013-04-11 11:17:13 AM
200 comments in and no one has brought up the Lincoln Blackwood? It was an F-150 at roughly double the price, without four-wheel-drive, and with a carpeted bed featuring an permanently-affixed power cap. Withdrawn after only one year.
 
2013-04-11 11:29:41 AM

RJB: 200 comments in and no one has brought up the Lincoln Blackwood? It was an F-150 at roughly double the price, without four-wheel-drive, and with a carpeted bed featuring an permanently-affixed power cap. Withdrawn after only one year.


They call it the Ford Platinum now.
 
RJB
2013-04-11 11:42:35 AM

The Muthaship: RJB: 200 comments in and no one has brought up the Lincoln Blackwood? It was an F-150 at roughly double the price, without four-wheel-drive, and with a carpeted bed featuring an permanently-affixed power cap. Withdrawn after only one year.

They call it the Ford Platinum now.


Or the Mark LT. Those are least usable trucks. They're showy and expensive, and their chrome trim might not handle abuse as well as a lower-tier truck, but you can throw stuff in the bed, FFS.
 
2013-04-11 11:46:22 AM

RJB: They're showy and expensive, and their chrome trim might not handle abuse as well as a lower-tier truck, but you can throw stuff in the bed, FFS.


My buddy has an Escalade pick up.  I show him no mercy.
 
2013-04-11 11:56:18 AM

Cyberluddite: The Cadillac Catera certainly wasn't Cadillac's first major flop.  There was also this monstrosity, the Cadillac Cimarron of the 1980s:

[eagleradio97.files.wordpress.com image 531x274]

It was basically a 4-banger Chevy Cavalier with leather uphostery, though it clost to twice the price of a Chevy (probably the equivalent of somewhere between $30K and $40K in 2013 dollars, I would guess), and a complete piece of shiat.  Anybody who bought one (including my friend's dad, who bought the first one I ever saw in person) was justifiably pointed at and laughed at by all other drivers.



CSB:

My high school car in 1986 was a 1977 Cadillac Sedan DeVille Brougham.  The father of the girl I was dating bought a used '84 Cimarron and was really weird about showing off his Cadillac to me.  He was sending off this "I'm as good as you" vibe, which was odd, because I knew I was just a punk kid with no money of my own--it was just my dad's old car he got used, as well.

I asked my dad what was going on, since they both worked at the same place I thought they might know each other.  Turns out both dads were hiding the fact they disliked each other for the sake of young love.  My dad was an executive engineer, and her dad was a lab technician who hated working for my dad and the rest of the engineering department.

It explained a lot of the "keeping up with the Joneses" thing going on with the guy.

/The Cimarron broke repeatedly--the Sedan DeVille went on forever with no troubles.
 
2013-04-11 12:24:34 PM

KrispyKritter: Pointy Tail of Satan: BMW only made 2200 of the first model MZ3 Coupe. When I die, they are gonna bury me in mine.

[www.diseno-art.com image 400x275]

i've seen that model only three times. i was excited as hell the first time, looking forward to seeing many more. that is one sexy beast of a car. i love that car and i envy your ride. enjoy in good health you lucky farker you!


--- Chevrolet Chevette: a more miserable pathetic car i've never driven. simply horrible. i inherited one. the steering wheel was at a strange angle, it was made that way, very off putting. that car took five minutes to get up to highway speed and heaven help you when you needed braking power. simply terrible deathmobile. may they all rot in hell.


Ah, the Chevette.  My first car.  Can't agree with you more.
 
2013-04-11 12:48:20 PM

Tellingthem: I've said this before but i kinda like the Aztek. I think it is because it's so bad...


My neighbor has one.  He loves it.  it is actually his second one.  The first one got totaled in a wreck.  Not a pretty car, but decent ride, decent gas mileage, tons of space, and very cheap.
 
2013-04-11 02:05:01 PM
Aerostar doesn't belong on the list. They made 50 thousand of them in the final year.
BTW- the '97 with the 4.0 and five speed auto is the one to get.
 
2013-04-11 02:15:36 PM
Utilizing the line "the Caddy that zigs," the Catera's commercial featured Cindy Crawford (already an old-school model) talking to a cartoon wizard duck. Really.

They probably had a specific market in mind.

bestofthe80s.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-11 03:49:35 PM
I kinda like the Wagonaire. You take off the top and open the windows, and you have more of an airflow than just sitting directly in the wind-funnel thing. It's like opening a window on each side of my house to get the cross-current. Of course I'm a Jeep guy that still likes the bikini top on so I'm not driving under the blazing sun, but still have a lot of air movement, so there's that.

What I want to know is if that few Azteks and Yugos sold, how come I've seen so many of them? I must have seen half the run of each car at some point on the road. Yugos turned into rust buckets in record time, too... Aztek had 1 thing going for it, and that was the tent that was designed to attach to the back so you could sleep in your car while camping out. I liked that concept, and I've looked at tents like that for my Cherokee... Otherwise, I agree, it's uglier than a farker's mom...
 
2013-04-11 03:53:41 PM

netgamer7k: [upload.wikimedia.org image 280x190]

What about this abomination to our eyes?


Remember, this was Pre-Charger, Pre-Challenger, Pre-Camaro. It was the closest thing to a retro ride we had there for a few years(Well, that and the Prowler, which everyone has a love/hate relationship with, too.). I still kinda like them, but I think they should belong to the car-show crowd, they just don't seem cool as daily drivers.
 
2013-04-11 08:01:07 PM

ski9600: markie_farkie: The sad thing is the concept that ultimately became the Aztek was 10000 times better looking.  I suspect some assholes in marketing stepped in and forced more BRAND UNITY IDENTIFIER changes onto the final design.

[www.sub5zero.com image 850x505]

I saw one of these today and was like "what is that?"  Basically the same car but with AWD and better looking.
[img2.netcarshow.com image 640x480]
2013 Subaru Crosstrek


I ran right out to drive one of those but bought a Legacy instead. They can let me know when they can make it as quiet as a Legacy. That's the only way I'd consider it. After having my Legacy for two months, I don't really care for another crossover (I traded an Outback). Other car is a Baja, which is absolutely hated by everyone who doesn't have one. I don't really need a crossover anymore, and the Baja does everything it needs to.

Mr. Atomic has a coworker who used to be a cop. She got her nose out of joint over his car. Apparently, only the most abject of liberal scum drive Subarus, and we each have one. We are, therefore The Worst People In the Whole World™.

/Good
 
2013-04-11 10:50:59 PM
If I remember right. you could buy a new Aztek for about 60% of the original price for a while... maybe we see so many because these numbers are not included?
 
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