Joe Rogan has been getting KILLED on Twitter about this,  bu ti agree with him.  Fox only got the transgender operation what, 5-6 years ago, meaning she spent the first 20+ years of her life as a man.  newsflash:  men and women's bodies are different.  muscle groups, arm/shoulder strength, women's hip strength vs. men, hand size, forearm strength, the different angle of a female's hip/legs versus men (whcih affects punching power, as does the angle of female elbow / male elbow angle) and possibly (and this is where it gets theoretical and more controversial), her psychological "profile" was different for the first 20+ years of her life.  Men are said to have better spacial recognition and reactive tiems, and, gee, those aren't relevant at all in a close quarters combat situation.

now, i haven't seen the aftermath of her recen fights, but from what Rogan says, Fox is beating the shiat out of her opponents.  in other words, this isn't gina carano/cyborg or what have you, where two biologically born women are exploiting their lower body strength or like, rousey, using her hips and technique to defeat women.  rogan is like, "this is a man punching the shiat out of a woman, folks."  this is a human being with the body structure of a man, that only recently converted to being a woman, but she still has the shoulders, hand size, instinctual brain chemistry that may or may not be altered, to be a woman.

she shouldn't be fighting women.

MaxxLarge: The mansplaining in this thread has already reached critical mass.

This oughta be fun.

Hell, I wasn't even fishing but I caught a red herring anyway.

rickythepenguin: Joe Rogan has been getting KILLED on Twitter about this,  bu ti agree with him.  Fox only got the transgender operation what, 5-6 years ago, meaning she spent the first 20+ years of her life as a man.  newsflash:  men and women's bodies are different.  muscle groups, arm/shoulder strength, women's hip strength vs. men, hand size, forearm strength, the different angle of a female's hip/legs versus men (whcih affects punching power, as does the angle of female elbow / male elbow angle) and possibly (and this is where it gets theoretical and more controversial), her psychological "profile" was different for the first 20+ years of her life.  Men are said to have better spacial recognition and reactive tiems, and, gee, those aren't relevant at all in a close quarters combat situation.

now, i haven't seen the aftermath of her recen fights, but from what Rogan says, Fox is beating the shiat out of her opponents.  in other words, this isn't gina carano/cyborg or what have you, where two biologically born women are exploiting their lower body strength or like, rousey, using her hips and technique to defeat women.  rogan is like, "this is a man punching the shiat out of a woman, folks."  this is a human being with the body structure of a man, that only recently converted to being a woman, but she still has the shoulders, hand size, instinctual brain chemistry that may or may not be altered, to be a woman.

she shouldn't be fighting women.

This.

I don't care if it's unpopular or politically incorrect. There is zero likelihood that this woman doesn't have a huge competitive advantage. Her muscles and bone structure developed during a regime with male levels of testosterone. There is a reason the Olympics doesn't allow trans-women to compete. The entire female Olympics would become nothing but trans-women overnight, except for gymnastics and figure skating.

I have nothing against transsexuals socially. She should be free to live her life and pursue her hobbies and relationships as she chooses. But calling her a monster and a freak in the octagon is legit.

Kudos to subby for proudly standing up for the right to hate people for who they are and make sure everyone knows it.

MaxxLarge: The mansplaining in this thread has already reached critical mass.

This oughta be fun.

WTF is with this feminist bath salt freakout in response to anything any man says, ever, about anything? Do you seriously disagree? Do you actually want to fight a man? Go ahead and put your money where your mouth is if you think we're full of shiat.

rickythepenguin: now, i haven't seen the aftermath of her recen fights, but from what Rogan says, Fox is beating the shiat out of her opponents.  in other words, this isn't gina carano/cyborg or what have you, where two biologically born women are exploiting their lower body strength or like, rousey, using her hips and technique to defeat women.

This fight has her winning by armbar, just like Rousey. And this one was just a lucky knee in the jaw, but they were both trading punches and takedowns until then.
Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says.

Theaetetus: Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says.

fair point....like i said, i haven't watched her fights but i respect his opinion. thanks for the info, though.

people seem to be conflating "transgenders shouldn't fight women" position with "HE SAID TRANSGENDERS AREN'T PEOPLE / REAL WOMEN / TRANSGENDERISM IS WRONG" and so on, which a completely separate issue.  and he and I have no problem with transenders....although in fairness to myself, I can't think of a single person i've ever known who underwent gender reassignment.

i know a few transvestites (or whatever the proper term is) but to my knowledge they haven't reassigned.  but they're not fighting women.  if they were it would be BS but that's the point of this thread i guess.

rickythepenguin: Joe Rogan has been getting KILLED on Twitter about this,  bu ti agree with him.  Fox only got the transgender operation what, 5-6 years ago, meaning she spent the first 20+ years of her life as a man.  newsflash:  men and women's bodies are different.  muscle groups, arm/shoulder strength, women's hip strength vs. men, hand size, forearm strength, the different angle of a female's hip/legs versus men (whcih affects punching power, as does the angle of female elbow / male elbow angle) and possibly (and this is where it gets theoretical and more controversial), her psychological "profile" was different for the first 20+ years of her life.  Men are said to have better spacial recognition and reactive tiems, and, gee, those aren't relevant at all in a close quarters combat situation.


I'm inclined to agree.  Even if (as I've read) she didn't start MMA training and conditioning until well after the op and treatments, there are some facts about fundamental body layout that just won't change.  No amount of legitimate training is ever going to give her opponents those same advantages, win or lose.  It's like a PED that she can never put down, even if she wants to.

That said, it's hard to have a rational conversation about this when these farkwits keep tying it to the other, unrelated argument: that she's a freak, that she's a he, that "he" gets off on beating women and is only doing this for perverse jollies...  all these lovely things that mostly boil down to "Eww, who let these damn sicko pervert trannies into our clubhouse?"

The first argument is one that anybody in the business should probably be able to make without repercussion.  The second is the kind of bile-spewing tirade that rightly buys you a time-out from your employer for bad publicity, assuming your employer isn't the local Chick-fil-A.

MMA already gets enough sweaty-dick-punching, sweaty-men-touching jokes.  Quit throwing stones from your glass houses, fellas.

Theaetetus: Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand i just did.  the first one is a man fighting a woman, case closed.

teh second one, they're a bit more evenly matched, but look at "her" hips, her hip angle.  that's a man.  men have longer femurs typically.  hip angle / bone length = more force delivered.

dletter: Theaetetus: rickythepenguin: now, i haven't seen the aftermath of her recen fights, but from what Rogan says, Fox is beating the shiat out of her opponents.  in other words, this isn't gina carano/cyborg or what have you, where two biologically born women are exploiting their lower body strength or like, rousey, using her hips and technique to defeat women.

This fight has her winning by armbar, just like Rousey. And this one was just a lucky knee in the jaw, but they were both trading punches and takedowns until then.
Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says.

I watched that video and within a half a second I could tell who the transgender woman was.   And that seemed pretty dominating to me.... Fox basically just picked her up and threw her to the ground, and just worked her down into a winning position.

Kinda like Rousey frequently does. Also, unlike what ricky said about just "beating the shiat out of her opponents" and not "using her hips and technique".

rickythepenguin: Theaetetus: Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand i just did.  the first one is a man fighting a woman, case closed.

So? Doesn't look much different from a typical Rousey fight. Get the full guard, throw some punches until you can snag an arm, then rotate into the armbar and hold until the tap.

teh second one, they're a bit more evenly matched, but look at "her" hips, her hip angle.  that's a man.  men have longer femurs typically.  hip angle / bone length = more force delivered.

Oh, come on, they're both 5'3". Any femur length difference is going to be on the order of millimeters, well within normal range. You'd do better sticking to an argument about testosterone and muscle mass.

Wasteland: The first argument is one that anybody in the business should probably be able to make without repercussion. The second is the kind of bile-spewing tirade that rightly buys you a time-out from your employer for bad publicity, assuming your employer isn't the local Chick-fil-A.

MMA already gets enough sweaty-dick-punching, sweaty-men-touching jokes. Quit throwing stones from your glass houses, fellas

Probably the most rational post that this thread will have, and I agree completely.

Here's a Rousey fight... Hip takedown, full guard, punch inna head, armbar, tap. Takes almost exactly the same number of seconds as that first Fox fight, too.

dletter: I am not an MMA fan really in the slightest... so I don't have a dog in that fight about comparing one fighter to another, from a specific standpoint.

I just want to understand your position... are you claiming that having a sex change operation actually changes your overall original body composition to be more like a natural born woman's?

Nope, that'd be silly, and I've never said anything of the sort.

Or that men biologically (as a whole) are not "stronger/faster/quicker" than women?

I've also never said that. I'm really not sure where you're getting your impression of my position, since it's not coming from any of my quotes.

What I've said - and I'd like to see you dispute any of these points, and I'd really like you to explain how you get from these to "sex change operations change your overall body composition herpdederp" or "men biologically (as a whole) are not 'stronger/faster/quicker' than women hurrdedurr:

1) Fox is not "beating the shiat out of her opponents" but rather winning in the exact same way that other fighters do, like Rousey. Here's the quote: "This fight has her winning by armbar, just like Rousey. And this one was just a lucky knee in the jaw, but they were both trading punches and takedowns until then.
Perhaps you should go by what your eyes and the videos show, rather than what Rogan says."

2) Fox's femurs are not significantly longer than Newsome's. Here's that quote: "Oh, come on, they're both 5'3". Any femur length difference is going to be on the order of millimeters, well within normal range."

So, please explain how you get those two strawman arguments from what I said.

the biggest redneck here: Theaetetus: Here's a Rousey fight... Hip takedown, full guard, punch inna head, armbar, tap. Takes almost exactly the same number of seconds as that first Fox fight, too.

Your crazy analogy doesn't fit the narrative you want it to because Fox simply grabbed her opponent at mid-line, picked her up, and threw her down. Rousey's throws are so different and you seem so uninformed --and unwilling to see the light-- that I don't think I have time to explain it to you.

... he says, posting twice. I think you lack the ability, not the time.

Also, here's Cris Cyborg doing a  suplex.

the biggest redneck here: Theaetetus: the biggest redneck here: Theaetetus: Here's a Rousey fight... Hip takedown, full guard, punch inna head, armbar, tap. Takes almost exactly the same number of seconds as that first Fox fight, too.

Your crazy analogy doesn't fit the narrative you want it to because Fox simply grabbed her opponent at mid-line, picked her up, and threw her down. Rousey's throws are so different and you seem so uninformed --and unwilling to see the light-- that I don't think I have time to explain it to you.

... he says, posting twice. I think you lack the ability, not the time.

You're saying that a drawn-out judo throw and picking a person up front in front and slamming them on their back are essentially the same.

[Citation needed], since I never said that. I said that Fox was doing the same armbar routine as Rousey in that fight, rather than "beating the shiat out of her opponent." And since you have to lie about what I'm saying, here's the actual quotes:
"Doesn't look much different from a typical Rousey fight. Get the full guard, throw some punches until you can snag an arm, then rotate into the armbar and hold until the tap."
"Here's a Rousey fight... Hip takedown, full guard, punch inna head, armbar, tap. Takes almost exactly the same number of seconds as that first Fox fight, too"

It's amazing how no one in this thread can actually debate my words or usemyquotes, and instead have to debate some non-existent strawman. I think that counts as a win by default.

Wow, I never realized how many Geneticists were on Fark.  The number of people here who are clearly experts in the fields of anatomy and physiology, impressive.

Unless it's a bunch of people who are just pretending to know what they're talking about, but that's still very trustworthy, as conventional wisdom is also never wrong...

Theaetetus: Doesn't look much different from a typical Rousey fight.

Maybe from a non-fan perspective.  The technique involved in Rousey's fight versus Fox's was far different.  Seeing someone brute force their way into a full mount is different from gaining the same position than through wrestling technique (leg placement, hip position, etc).  To anyone who knows about MMA styles and techniques, those videos you showed actually make a stronger argument for not letting a transgender fighter fight women.  Both the hip toss and suplex were required a high level of training, while that toss the the ground from Fox was just kind of sloppy.

JimStarkBand: Wow, I never realized how many Geneticists were on Fark.  The number of people here who are clearly experts in the fields of anatomy and physiology, impressive.

Unless it's a bunch of people who are just pretending to know what they're talking about, but that's still very trustworthy, as conventional wisdom is also never wrong...

I don't think you need a degree in genetics to understand that hormonal changes through puberty effect muscle development between men and women differently.  But that's a good way to deflect without having an argument.

He has a point, but since it's Mitrione he throws up all over himself.  He starts with "That is a lying" and he's correct since Fox did not disclose the gender swap until after the fight.  Then it just goes downhill "sick, sociopathic, disgusting freak,"  Those last three words are the source of the problem.  Instead of focusing on the main issue(not disclosing the gender surgery), he fires off a string of insults and comes off as a bigot.  I don't honestly know if Mitrione has a problem with LGBTs, but he certainly sounds like he does in that snippet, which is a PR nightmare for the UFC and MMA in general.

The Muthaship: Has axe, will grind it. This is tangentially related to his tireless Womynist advocacy.

oh.  i didn't know that.  i guess that is a large part of the discussion, and goies to what i initially said;  rogan is getting killed for his opinion, but by folks conflating his sport=based argument with a social policy/politics of gender position, which is not the point.

i wonder if anyone has asked Rousey, Zingano, Tate, et al, if they would fight Fox.  If i was a women I surea s shiat wouldn't.

dletter: Theaetetus: Also, here's Cris Cyborg doing a  suplex.

I am not having a debate with a strawman.....

Here are your claims as I understand what you have presented them in your points and responses above.....

Nice try, but no. I have explicitly disagreed with you trying to put words in my mouth, and I presented my points succinctly so that you could copy and paste and respond. You failed to do that, and instead have again misrepresented my position. You  are having a debate with a strawman.

Copy-paste and respond to my words, or STFU, troll.

rickythepenguin:
i wonder if anyone has asked Rousey, Zingano, Tate, et al, if they would fight Fox.  If i was a women I surea s shiat wouldn't.

Speaking as a woman that was big in martial arts for many years?  If I was the woman that Fox beat, I'd be furious as hell.  Tis one thing for my sifu to knowingly put me up against a male fighter.  I know what to expect - he will have reach, his hip movement will be different (thus meaning his attacks with his legs will be different), his strikes will be harder and his legs usually capable of longer stronger moves.  But putting me up against a little "kid" and not telling me "oh, he's a black belt in three other kind of martial arts" is kinda a dick move.  Putting me up against a transgender without telling me I need to compensate for hip/shoulder/strength is no different.  You fight girls differently than you do men.  They move different, they attack different.  They have different capabilities when it comes to take downs (and which take downs work well on them).

Course, now that Fox's secret is out - If I was Rousey I'd probably love to take Fox on.  I know what to expect now, understand why Fox was able to make such powerful moves that most women couldn't.  I understand how Fox's hip motions seem strange.

Also - for those comparing Fox to Cyborg in hopes to move their "Fox isn't different from other woman" agenda?  Yeah, you might not wanna use that comparison - what you are accidentally saying is "Fox is the same as a juiced up woman on steroids"

What level of "sex-change" qualifies you to compete as a different gender?  Is there a standard?

rickythepenguin: i wonder if anyone has asked Rousey, Zingano, Tate, et al, if they would fight Fox.  If i was a women I surea s shiat wouldn't.

Cyborg says she would.

the biggest redneck here: Theaetetus: This fight has her winning by armbar, just like Rousey. And this one was just a lucky knee in the jaw

Explain how the judo throw/hip toss setup into an armbar from side control is "just like" picking a person up by their midsection, slamming them down on their back, and powering into an armbar from bottom. Then explain how the second of two knees from a Thai clinch is "lucky."

Those are your words, now go into detail on just how stupid they are. I need a good laugh.

Nope, those are your words. You can tell because you typed them, rather than using my quote. My words are "this fight has her winning by armbar, just like Rousey." Please explain how you read "the judo throw/hip toss setup... is 'just like' picking a person up by their midsection" in that. I'll wait.

And the lucky part was the hit on the chin that knocked out Newsome. The clinch was quite skillful. But please explain how that in any way means that Fox was "beating the shiat out of her opponents," which was the post I was disagreeing with.

The Muthaship: the biggest redneck here: Troll, or really this stupid?

Has axe, will grind it.  This is tangentially related to his tireless Womynist advocacy.

"Waaaa, Theaetetus wants us to actually debate him using his words rather than the words we're pretending he said! That's not faaaaaaaair!"

Lumbar Puncture: JimStarkBand: Wow, I never realized how many Geneticists were on Fark.  The number of people here who are clearly experts in the fields of anatomy and physiology, impressive.

Unless it's a bunch of people who are just pretending to know what they're talking about, but that's still very trustworthy, as conventional wisdom is also never wrong...

I don't think you need a degree in genetics to understand that hormonal changes through puberty effect muscle development between men and women differently.  But that's a good way to deflect without having an argument.

Thanks! (remember this word for later)

'Affect'

But it's a pretty solid argument, that you just don't like.  Here's a less snarky way to put it: "Goddamn a lot of people here are acting like experts in something that a great majority of people really only have anecdotal knowledge of.  The realistic explanation here is a bunch of people are talking out their collective asses, and yesing each other into confirmation.  Whether they are even partially correct is worthy of scrutiny, but the possibility that they are even generally correct is remote.  On subject matters as complicated as this, I would think it's better to first hear from an expert in the field, of which there are none presently in this conversation.  So, I would have to first look to the largest MMA fighting organization for their opinion (which must be more educated than the ones of keyboard warriors, considering their own liability issues), and their opinion is she is a she, and that is that.  Calling her a 'he' simply for being good at what she does is sexist and transphobic."

However, since all I did was convincingly dismiss all those here who think they know without doubt the certainty of this situation when they have nothing but "Look how 'he' moves his hips", and all you could do was pretend that isn't an actual argument, I guess you are proving my point that a discussion here is kinda pointless.

And, for that reason, I think you should refer back to the first word in my response. :)