Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.
Duplicate of another approved link: 7687536


(Money Morning)   Thirteen states want to make gold and silver coins legal tender. The other 37 say they'll just wait for the peso and yuan to become the official U.S. currencies   (moneymorning.com ) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Legal Tender Act, pesos, gold coins, gold bar, Economic stagnation, currency, clear messages, hyperinflation  
•       •       •

261 clicks;  Favorite

49 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2013-04-10 04:42:53 AM  
Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.
 
2013-04-10 06:30:29 AM  
You going to start arguing about the 3/5 of a person thing, too? Libertarians are so tiresome.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-04-10 07:10:19 AM  

pecosdave: Our current money however is not legal


FALSE

The 1965 coinage act says otherwise.

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

So for all the Libertarians who have been spending their life savings buying Canadian Maple leaf silver coins because they fear the American dollar may become worthless, have been buying a product which is illegal to use to settle debts in the USA.


www.gildedlife.com
Illegal to use to settle debts


coins.silvercoinstoday.com
LEGAL to settle debts
 
2013-04-10 08:10:24 AM  

pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.


I don't know where you get your information,but sweeping assertions against established fact usually require evidence other than someone making the claim.
 
2013-04-10 08:16:21 AM  

NFA: pecosdave: Our current money however is not legal

FALSE

The 1965 coinage act says otherwise.

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

So for all the Libertarians who have been spending their life savings buying Canadian Maple leaf silver coins because they fear the American dollar may become worthless, have been buying a product which is illegal to use to settle debts in the USA.


Isn't the word "illegal" a little harsh here?  The thing about legal tender is you have to accept it in payment of a debt.  But there's nothing preventing you from settling a debt with some other currency or barter.  If I owed you money, but you agreed to just take my car instead, that would be legal wouldn't it?
 
2013-04-10 08:43:25 AM  

pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.



Section 10 places restrictions on States. It's why Missouri doesn't print its own money. It has fark all to do with the US dollar.
 
2013-04-10 08:58:50 AM  
Since these aren't legal tender, doesn't it mean the states would creating a barter system? Sounds like a tax dodge.
 
2013-04-10 09:30:57 AM  
The bootstrappy states are all going to switch to Bitcoins any day now.
 
2013-04-10 09:41:59 AM  
The bill doesn't mean residents will pay for groceries and utilities with the coins. It's more of a backup plan that provides "a lifeboat for Arizona so that we can construct Plan B" when paper currency is no longer widely accepted.

Utah led the way in 2011 when it sanctioned bullion as currency with the Legal Tender Act.

Funny to see the outlandish doomsday scenarios making it into our government and laws.

Although they say it is more of a "backup lifeboat"... doesn't passing the law though mean that "gold and silver" coins are now "legal tender"... and anything that is "legal tender" has to be accepted as payment, correct?   Or did I misread something there.... just saying, someone could be a dick and walk into Sears and demand that they take these gold coins as payment for a TV.
 
2013-04-10 09:43:43 AM  

pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.


Oh fun.
 
2013-04-10 09:45:20 AM  

pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.


And I am guessing you also don't have to pay that illegal Income Tax as well, right?
 
2013-04-10 09:53:13 AM  

dletter: pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.

And I am guessing you also don't have to pay that illegal Income Tax as well, right?


He lives in Texas, so he believes in lots of strange fairy tales.
 
2013-04-10 09:56:39 AM  
How tiny would a $1 gold coin have to be so it wouldn't be worth melting down? Even a silver coin would be pretty small.
 
2013-04-10 10:02:06 AM  
This is what happens when a majority of your citizens are uneducated mouth breathers.
 
2013-04-10 10:05:53 AM  
Thirteen states' legislators watch a lot of Glenn Beck.
 
2013-04-10 10:15:59 AM  

dletter: pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.

And I am guessing you also don't have to pay that illegal Income Tax as well, right?


They're called "sovereign simpletons".
 
2013-04-10 10:16:54 AM  

DamnYankees: Oh fun.


Yep. Another brilliant use of the ex rectum legal theory.
 
2013-04-10 10:21:25 AM  
The peso? Really subby?

/and for all the goldbugs who are worried about the US "devaluing" the dollar -- what the hell do you think China's been doing for all these years with the yuan?
 
2013-04-10 10:28:25 AM  
...and yet they are likewise resistant to dollar coins...

Apparently, they want a Silver Eagle again, yet likewise are resistant to the thought of paying folks a minimum of these suckers...
 
2013-04-10 10:28:46 AM  
Just waiting for the Amero's to take off....

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-10 10:34:32 AM  

dletter: Just waiting for the Amero's to take off....

[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 225x225]


Yup after canned food and shotguns the rest of my portfolio is invested in Ameros
 
2013-04-10 10:36:25 AM  
Suckers....I only deal in bitcoins. Did I tell you about the time I tried to use 2 bitcoins at a Taco Bell?
 
2013-04-10 10:36:50 AM  

OtherBrotherDarryl: How tiny would a $1 gold coin have to be so it wouldn't be worth melting down? Even a silver coin would be pretty small.


IIRC, they think that gold and silver are still worth the same as back in the day, it's just the dollar is worth less.  So if we go back to gold, the dollar will be worth what it used to be.

No clue what such a massive deflation in value woudl do to debts, I don't think they think that far ahead.
 
2013-04-10 10:37:00 AM  

pecosdave: Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

They already are.  Our current money however is not legal.


Next tell us how if you're in court and they are flying a flag with gold trim, you're free to go because any flag with a color other than red, white, or blue is illegal.
 
2013-04-10 10:42:12 AM  
Every bank would have to find a way to handle these, a huge PITA. There are issues of forgery - coins aren't exactly tough to forge. All to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

And remember, these are the people that complain government regulation is strangling business.
 
2013-04-10 10:44:20 AM  

serial_crusher: Isn't the word "illegal" a little harsh here?  The thing about legal tender is you have to accept it in payment of a debt.  But there's nothing preventing you from settling a debt with some other currency or barter.  If I owed you money, but you agreed to just take my car instead, that would be legal wouldn't it?


Barter is legal. Making and passing around your own currency is  illegal.
 
2013-04-10 10:47:51 AM  

odinsposse: serial_crusher: Isn't the word "illegal" a little harsh here?  The thing about legal tender is you have to accept it in payment of a debt.  But there's nothing preventing you from settling a debt with some other currency or barter.  If I owed you money, but you agreed to just take my car instead, that would be legal wouldn't it?

Barter is legal. Making and passing around your own currency is  illegal.


That just means you can't make your own coins. I think you're allowed to make slips of papers which say "DamnYankees Notes" and if you can convince people to take it, that's legal. You just can't pretend its US government currency. It's more of a counterfeiting issue, I think.
 
2013-04-10 10:49:52 AM  
Did you know that dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 1955 and that SAME dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 2013!?

My investment in handjob futures is going to pay off big time.  You'll all be sorry when your dollars are worth nothing and I'm stocked up on handjobs.
 
2013-04-10 10:50:58 AM  
Personally, I'm anticipating shifting my portfolio into trillion dollar platinum coins
 
2013-04-10 10:51:19 AM  
So some state legislators put their money into Goldline and the price of gold is falling. What better way to line their own pockets than to imply gold will be in demand.
 
2013-04-10 10:55:52 AM  

DamnYankees: odinsposse: serial_crusher: Isn't the word "illegal" a little harsh here?  The thing about legal tender is you have to accept it in payment of a debt.  But there's nothing preventing you from settling a debt with some other currency or barter.  If I owed you money, but you agreed to just take my car instead, that would be legal wouldn't it?

Barter is legal. Making and passing around your own currency is  illegal.

That just means you can't make your own coins. I think you're allowed to make slips of papers which say "DamnYankees Notes" and if you can convince people to take it, that's legal. You just can't pretend its US government currency. It's more of a counterfeiting issue, I think.


www.freeladders.com
 
2013-04-10 10:56:02 AM  
I wonder, what is the ratio of gold and silver in Utah to current wealth in Utah?
 
2013-04-10 10:56:26 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Did you know that dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 1955 and that SAME dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 2013!?

My investment in handjob futures is going to pay off big time.  You'll all be sorry when your dollars are worth nothing and I'm stocked up on handjobs.


Sure, but are handjobs a liquid asset?
 
2013-04-10 10:57:16 AM  

PreMortem: So some state legislators put their money into Goldline and the price of gold is falling. What better way to line their own pockets than to imply gold will be in demand.


Goldman cut its predictions again. They've been on the high side for several years.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are again.

The bank cut its three-month target to $1,530 an ounce from $1,615 and lowered the six- and 12-month predictions to $1,490 and $1,390 from $1,600 and $1,550.

I read yesterday that even the most inefficient miner can produce gold at $800 an ounce.  That's the absolute bottom and the price will settle somewhere above that.  You kind of knew what was coming when people were opening we-buy-gold franchises.
 
2013-04-10 10:58:51 AM  

MisterRonbo: Every bank would have to find a way to handle these, a huge PITA. There are issues of forgery - coins aren't exactly tough to forge. All to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


I thought Archimedes solved this problem thousands of years ago.

The bigger problem though is if the price of gold / silver / whatever rises again, people might be tempted to melt those coins down.  Since these are state currencies the Secret Service might not have jurisdiction (or give a damn for that matter), and the state might have to police that themselves.
 
2013-04-10 10:59:05 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Did you know that dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 1955 and that SAME dinner could be exchanged for a handjob in 2013!?

My investment in handjob futures is going to pay off big time.  You'll all be sorry when your dollars are worth nothing and I'm stocked up on handjobs.


I want my wealth in something stable and steady, not an asset that alternates between shooting through the roof and going limp.
 
2013-04-10 11:01:31 AM  

Wellon Dowd: I wonder, what is the ratio of gold and silver in Utah to current wealth in Utah?


About the same as the ratio of Stanley Nickels to Schrute Bucks?
 
2013-04-10 11:02:05 AM  

NFA: pecosdave: Our current money however is not legal

FALSE

The 1965 coinage act says otherwise.

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

So for all the Libertarians who have been spending their life savings buying Canadian Maple leaf silver coins because they fear the American dollar may become worthless, have been buying a product which is illegal to use to settle debts in the USA.

[www.gildedlife.com image 600x302]
Illegal to use to settle debts


[coins.silvercoinstoday.com image 500x288]
LEGAL to settle debts


Oh great.  Say silver is trading at $28/oz.  If someone wanted to take either one of your example one oz coins in exchange for $28 of debt, or any other mutually agreeable amount, that's a contract between two parties.

Or you can insist (INSIST! with the force of law!) someone take the US coin at the face value of $1, same as a Federal Reserve dollar bill.

Big win!

/seem to recall some IRS problems with some company paying employees with junk silver, and putting the face value as reported wages for withholding.  Not sure where that case went.
 
2013-04-10 11:04:51 AM  

serial_crusher: Isn't the word "illegal" a little harsh here? The thing about legal tender is you have to accept it in payment of a debt. But there's nothing preventing you from settling a debt with some other currency or barter. If I owed you money, but you agreed to just take my car instead, that would be legal wouldn't it?


Yes, but I wouldn't have to take your car if I did not want too. If gold and silver are declared legal tender you will have to take them for debts.

CSB as an Example:

I spent about a year installing computer systems at PAWN shops, 90% of the time I would be offered something in lieu of cash.  Now 99% of the time I would turn them down, however the guy who offered me a 100 OZ bar of silver did not have to pay cash.

I had a choice in that instance, Gold and Sliver as legal tender I would not have a choice if the silver was all the payment that was offered.

/CSB
 
2013-04-10 11:08:34 AM  
The renfaire lobby has become quite powerful.
 
2013-04-10 11:16:58 AM  

Arkanaut: I thought Archimedes solved this problem thousands of years ago.


Archimedes didn't have to worry about cheap tungsten being available.
 
2013-04-10 11:27:25 AM  

Antimatter: No clue what such a massive deflation in value woudl do to debts, I don't think they think that far ahead.


It would create a crippling demand for money.  If you can't buy lunch with paper money, you're gonna have to borrow -- i.e., you're going to have to promise goods & services in exchange for precious metals, except with the massive deflation, everyone else would be doing the same thing, which would collapse the value of anything you had to offer.  There's only so much gold & silver in the world and the U.S. only has a portion of that, which means if the money supply is fixed or can only grow at the pace of extraction, any production of goods in any other sector will cause a decline in value in those goods.  This in turn would explode consumer debt (people still gotta eat) while grinding all government AND non-subsistence consumer spending to a halt.  That sounds like an oxymoron (how can debt explode without consumer spending?) but in fact what it does -- and hard currency has a notorious historical record for this -- is create a particularly nasty and perpetual cycle of price shocks.  The money supply will grow at a fixed rate while economic growth is variable, so the only way for the system to correct is a rapid cycle of booms and busts.  Any economic growth will correspond with exploding consumer debt, which gets paid off by a collapse in consumer demand.  In the end, the value of precious metals winds up floating anyway; it just does so by farking over anyone whose contribution to the economy is a good or service.  The entire current banking system would implode into nothing, taking most businesses with them, with no hope of a bailout because the Fed wouldn't have nearly enough gold to cover the debts.  As a result the goldbugs would inherit the country's banking system overnight; everyone would have to borrow from them with the promise of paying back in goods & services.  Ergo, everyone who does own gold or silver would have a collective monopoly on money, and with that, virtually unlimited access to U.S. assets.

This would also instantly create an extremely treacherous dependence on access to foreign gold, essentially paving a path for nations like China (which will mine all the gold it has to control the U.S. if they have to kill a million of their own people to do it) to take over the U.S. economy.  Remember, we have a huge trade deficit with them.  Instead of us sending them paper and getting real goods back, we'd have to give China whatever the fark they demanded for their gold.  It would become extremely difficult to control China's influence on U.S. politics, as any legislator could vastly improve his/her state's short-term prosperity by selling out to China.  Also note the government will have no money with which to fund the military.  Nothing drains a nation's coffers of gold & silver like war; this was well known since the days of Sun Tzu.  The military's annual budget is around, what, $600-700 billion?  At today's prices, there's $8.5 billion worth of gold in the world.  Not what the U.S. government holds.  Total.  The threat posed by the Taliban, which America gladly spent hundreds of billions to get rid of, doesn't hold a clipped fingernail to the massive threat to the U.S. military posed by goldbugs.  The hippies could only dream of such a dramatic, rapid and unilateral disarmament.  Our entire global defense would be reduced to whoever would be willing to defend the country for free -- which might include most elite units, but forget about the contractors.

Essentially, the goldbug agenda is to collapse the U.S. economy in order to own it, at the further expense of basically handing the keys to the country to foreign powers.  They sell this preposterous idea to the public by playing up the facts that the banks and Treasury would collapse.  I don't think they have a prayer of making it happen as the banks would never allow a return to the gold standard, but the agenda gets enough press to be politically destructive.  Because it involves a near-total destruction of the government and a de facto coup, I personally believe goldbugs should be convicted of treason, but that's another pipe dream.
 
2013-04-10 11:31:05 AM  
I would like my currency determined by south african & south american gold miners.
 
2013-04-10 11:49:34 AM  
Not yuan.

RENMINBI!
 
2013-04-10 12:01:40 PM  

DamnYankees: That just means you can't make your own coins. I think you're allowed to make slips of papers which say "DamnYankees Notes" and if you can convince people to take it, that's legal. You just can't pretend its US government currency. It's more of a counterfeiting issue, I think.


Not a counterfeiting issue, no.  Well yeah, that's one reason, and yes, it's about who dictates the definition of legal tender (i.e., "what is money"), but the implications run a lot deeper than ANYONE here realizes.  It's not the paper the U.S. is defending; it's their control over prices.  If I owe you $200, I can't force you to accept 200 DamnYankees Notes, or even force you to accept a $200 gift card.  You're not obligated to take dollars, either, but that's really your problem.  If you take it to court and it turns out I offered you dollars and you refused them, the court will side with me.  But this is missing the point.  Note the entire example assumes both parties know just what the debt is worth -- the original debt is $200.  Easy, right?  That's the point.  That we can start the negotiation with both sides mutually agreeing that the value of the transaction is around $200 (give or take) is the huge, sweeping influence of the government's control over our currency.  Historians could very well argue there is absolutely nothing more critical to a country than this power, and the fact that goldbugs want to challenge it is nothing short of horrifying.  Most people have absolutely no idea how much they take the stability of the dollar for granted.

Everything in America -- goods, services, debts, TotalFark, your mom's blowjobs -- EVERYTHING of value is appraised in terms of dollars.  People may disagree on, say, the value of a bar of soap, but most people can provide at least a sane estimate of its price -- no one's going to say it's over $9000 unless they're trolling.  This really is a profound thing.  Without the government enforcing a standard currency, no one has any idea what the cost of debt is.  (Well they try, but the result is generally price instability.)  It's not my effort to convince you to accept Dragonchild bucks as a form of payment so much as, because I'm the monopoly supplier of Dragonchild bucks, my ability to price my own debts that the government will never let me have.  For example, if I hire you as an employee complete with tax forms and everything, when you work, I owe you payment.  Sure, it's illegal for me to arbitrarily pay you in corporate currency and write off the debt, and it's certainly illegal for me to try to pay any taxes in Dragonchild bucks.  (At least, the IRS wasn't happy the last time I tried.)  But the big thing is that as I'm the sole source of Dragonchild bucks in the world, I could appraise the value of your work at 2 Dragonchild bucks or 2 billion and no outside entity can question that.  If I order a pizza, again, if I pay in Dragonchild bucks, I control the price.  The government -- like any sovereign nation keeping its citizens on a leash, really -- will NEVER let me have that power, so they will come to your defense by declaring my money worthless and that if I owe you, I have to pay in dollars -- because I can't create dollars or control how much a dollar is worth.

TL;DR: This is something the goldbugs really don't want to hear, but the U.S. dollar provides huge, HUGE price stability within the U.S. economy.
 
2013-04-10 12:25:43 PM  

dragonchild: Antimatter: No clue what such a massive deflation in value woudl do to debts, I don't think they think that far ahead.

It would create a crippling demand for money.  If you can't buy lunch with paper money, you're gonna have to borrow -- i.e., you're going to have to promise goods & services in exchange for precious metals, except with the massive deflation, everyone else would be doing the same thing, which would collapse the value of anything you had to offer.  There's only so much gold & silver in the world and the U.S. only has a portion of that, which means if the money supply is fixed or can only grow at the pace of extraction, any production of goods in any other sector will cause a decline in value in those goods.  This in turn would explode consumer debt (people still gotta eat) while grinding all government AND non-subsistence consumer spending to a halt.  That sounds like an oxymoron (how can debt explode without consumer spending?) but in fact what it does -- and hard currency has a notorious historical record for this -- is create a particularly nasty and perpetual cycle of price shocks.  The money supply will grow at a fixed rate while economic growth is variable, so the only way for the system to correct is a rapid cycle of booms and busts.  Any economic growth will correspond with exploding consumer debt, which gets paid off by a collapse in consumer demand.  In the end, the value of precious metals winds up floating anyway; it just does so by farking over anyone whose contribution to the economy is a good or service.  The entire current banking system would implode into nothing, taking most businesses with them, with no hope of a bailout because the Fed wouldn't have nearly enough gold to cover the debts.  As a result the goldbugs would inherit the country's banking system overnight; everyone would have to borrow from them with the promise of paying back in goods & services.  Ergo, everyone who does own gold or silver would have a collective monopo ...


Not to harsh on your tutorial, but you made one error - at today's prices there is about 9 Trillion dollars of gold in the world.  The US currently holds ~ 147 million troy oz. of gold at the USBD (aka Fort Knox) with a current value of $227.85 Billion given a $1550/troy oz. gold price.

But your analysis is correct (and even technically correct, which we all know is the best kind of correct).  Between the gold at the bullion depository and the NY Fed, we do not have enough gold to cover even one year of operating the US military.  Let alone operating the economy.  At least, not without massive appreciation in the value of gold, and such massive wealth transfer to the goldbugs, who do not actually produce anything, is not in anyone's interest other than that of the goldbugs themselves.  To "back" the US money supply (M4 - ie. essentially all forms of money) with gold, we would need gold to go to $670,000 per troy oz.

So fark off you gold bugs, I'm not devaluing my productivity to that level.
 
2013-04-10 11:30:47 PM  
Generation_D:

I don't know where you get your information,but sweeping assertions against established fact usually require evidence other than someone making the claim.

Article 1 Section 10 
That's the US Constitution, I'm sorry, I figured it would be obvious.
 
2013-04-11 12:21:03 AM  

pecosdave: Generation_D:

I don't know where you get your information,but sweeping assertions against established fact usually require evidence other than someone making the claim.

Article 1 Section 10 
That's the US Constitution, I'm sorry, I figured it would be obvious.


You're right; it is obvious that states cannot issue their own money. But there is nothing in there prohibiting the Feds from doing so.
 
2013-04-12 02:33:40 AM  

Speaker2Animals: You're right; it is obvious that states cannot issue their own money. But there is nothing in there prohibiting the Feds from doing so.


make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts


Sounds to me like they can.
 
Displayed 49 of 49 comments



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report