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(The Stranger)   Washington state has filed a lawsuit against the florist who refused to do the flowers for a gay wedding due to her "relationship with Jesus". WWJD, indeed?   (slog.thestranger.com) divider line 273
    More: Followup, public accommodations, flower shops, Human Rights Commission, legal defense, discrimination law, federal courts  
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4425 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Apr 2013 at 11:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-10 04:58:23 PM  
Satanic_Hamster:   If a Rabbi, a Sikh, and a Muslim went into a Christian bookstore

...and the bartender said, "what is this, a joke?"
 
2013-04-10 04:58:45 PM  
This seems sooooo wrong.   A Business should be able to refuse a customer.

What if a homosexual florist refused to give flowers to the Westboro Baptist church?  I'm sure people would be ok with that.
 
2013-04-10 04:59:16 PM  

Kahabut: Benevolent Misanthrope: Spad31: Benevolent Misanthrope: Spad31: Gays aren't anything special. A business person not wanting to do business with someone because of their beliefs happens all the time. Why would anyone give a shiat?

Substitute "Jews" or "Blacks" for gays.

Uh, okay. Blacks or Jews aren't special. Just go spend your money somewhere else. Easy. Again, why would anyone give a shiat?

So you would be cool with a business owner refusing to serve someone because they were black?  Really?   Okay, now I know for sure you're trolling.  Got me.

Lets put a spin on things shall we?  How about this question...

So you support the government lead effort to force business owners to do business with people they dislike/distrust?

Let me ask it even easier.  What farking business does the government have tell me who I can and can't and HAVE TO do business with, and why does that make any sense what so ever?

Now, don't get me wrong, I think protected classes are a reasonable reaction by the government.  I think "equality" laws are fine. (well, good idea, bad implementation, but that's government for you).  But I also think it's total bullshiat to force a business to do business with someone they choose not to serve.  That should be up to the business, and the community should shun and destroy that business by voting with their dollars.   The government should not be suing a florist for choosing not to get involved in something her religion says is an abomination


Then Christians should get out of the shrimping business.
 
2013-04-10 05:07:39 PM  

Tellingthem: There have been successful lawsuits regarding these gyms refusing to employ males, however.

Ok it kind of makes sense and it doesn't.


It's easy. Just remember: straight, white males are evil.
 
2013-04-10 05:12:17 PM  

kukukupo: This seems sooooo wrong.   A Business should be able to refuse a customer.

What if a homosexual florist refused to give flowers to the Westboro Baptist church?  I'm sure people would be ok with that.


You should read the thread before posting, since this has been answered easily a dozen times already.
 
2013-04-10 05:13:29 PM  

kukukupo: This seems sooooo wrong.   A Business should be able to refuse a customer.

What if a homosexual florist refused to give flowers to the Westboro Baptist church?  I'm sure people would be ok with that.


Being a member of the Westboro Baptist Church means you're choosing to be an oozing pussball on the ass of society.

If you're gay, that's not a choice. Just like being black isn't a choice.

You can't discriminate against people for being something that they naturally are. Unless they're assholes. Then it's okay.
 
2013-04-10 05:17:44 PM  

saturn badger: [www.genericsubject.com image 400x290]
Doesn't this cover it?


Surprisingly, no, merely posting a sign inventing whatever made-up rules you wish to be in effect does not actually override the state's laws and prevent them from being enforced against you! Who knew?!
 
2013-04-10 05:25:09 PM  

highwayrun: Great Janitor: Why is this worthy of a lawsuit?  She refused to do business with a couple.  If she took their money and gave them nothing in return, I could see a case.  But saying "No, your being gay is against my religious beliefs."  shouldn't be grounds for a lawsuit.  Just go to a different business who will cater to homosexuals.  This really gets to me because business owners should have the right to deny service to who ever they chose for what ever reason.  If they decide not to do business with you, find someone else.  Secondly, she cited her religious beliefs as the reason why.  Honestly, I don't give a damn about those beliefs, but if the government can step in and say "Yes, your religious beliefs say that homosexuality is a sin and you don't want to support it, but the law says you must or face a lawsuit."  is a dangerous overstep for the government in my opinion, and act as a precedent to allow for more government rules to bypass religious freedom.

Maybe that seems cool with you now, but if a business can deny service to anyone, for any reason, is it okay for a hospital to deny service? Or the only motel in town? Or an ob-gyn? or the only grocery store in walking distance?


A hospital is not a business.  In fact, a hospital, unlike a business has to take a person and treat them even if they can not pay.  Businesses can in fact deny service to those who can not pay and not face any problems.

The only motel in town is, again, a business and the owner is free (or should be free) to deny letting a paying customer a room for the night.  If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay.

An Ob-gyn, given that while it is medical care, is a bit different than a hospital since it's private practice mostly, but why shouldn't they be allowed to tell someone that they don't want to treat them.  What if the OB-GYN was telling a woman to stop masturbating with vegetables because it was causing serious problems (friend who's a nurse, I've heard a few stories) and she refused.  Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health.

As for the only grocery store in walking distance, yes.  I have seen stores refuse service and even entry to those who have been caught shoplifting in said store.  The fact that it's the only store within walking distance doesn't mean that it has to serve anyone.  If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so.  And as for the Arabs in that community, just how welcomed do you think they will feel in that store anyways?  I walk into a store and if I feel unwelcomed, I leave.  If the owner is Asian and the store is in an Asian area and I am treated as an outsider and made to feel unwelcomed, I'm going to leave, that simple.  I'm not going to make a stink of it.  He doesn't want me there, I'll spend my money at a place that will make me feel welcomed.

A business owner should be able to serve the clients that they want to serve.  If a business owner feels so strongly against gay marriage that she refuses to cater the wedding, she should have that right.  Three years ago when my wife and I were getting married, we looked at one place for the wedding location.  My wife and I are Pagans and were wanting to do a Pagan Handfasting ceremony.  One location, upon learning what we were wanting to do go upset and told us flat out that she didn't want us having our wedding there.  So we did the simple thing, we found another location that didn't care.  They got our money (or would have if they would have cashed our check).  We didn't biatch to a lawyer about being discriminated against due to our religious beliefs, we didn't run to the government crying about the mean old lady who didn't like our beliefs.  We let her believe that we were devil worshiper wanting to do a devil worshiping wedding and let the person who didn't care what we did accept our check.
 
2013-04-10 05:29:32 PM  

Canned Tamales: Hi there, Mr. Homosexual Florist.


He's promoting a book. You can argue that refusing service isn't based on his religion, but not wanting to assist his business.

Canned Tamales: Hi there, Mrs. Atheist Advertising Executive.


In this instance, you can refuse service because improving their image has nothing to do with their religious beliefs. Same with the book above.

Canned Tamales: High there, Mr. Non-Religious Building Contractor.


Simply claim that you're too busy to do the work. Or they're not willing to pay well enough. Or you don't feel comfortable doing that kind of work. Hell, there's all sorts of excuses you can use.


These might not be the best excuses since they're off the top of my head. My point is just that you can find plenty of legal excuses not to do the work if you really don't want to do the work.
 
2013-04-10 05:31:42 PM  

Canned Tamales: Hi there Mr. Christian Bookstore Owner.


Forgot about this one. You can refuse service because the guy was rude and called you  "useless and disgusting."

Or you might be able to deny him the book because he intends to use it for purposes other than it was intended (I'm not going to sell you a work of art if I think you might destroy it.)
 
2013-04-10 05:35:52 PM  

DemDave: If you claim that you're refusing service based on their political beliefs, then you'd actually be okay.


Uh, that is pretty much exactly what she did. From my understanding of the situation, she refused to serve them because of their support of gay marriage rather than because they are gay. Being for or against gay marriage is technically a political belief.
 
2013-04-10 05:41:36 PM  
Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...


2.bp.blogspot.com
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...
 
2013-04-10 05:44:44 PM  
Theaetetus:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...


Holy crap, make it stop.
 
2013-04-10 05:45:25 PM  

umad: Uh, that is pretty much exactly what she did. From my understanding of the situation, she refused to serve them because of their support of gay marriage rather than because they are gay. Being for or against gay marriage is technically a political belief.


Yeah, there are actually several angles under which she has room to argue. It could be an interesting case (although on a personal note I certainly hope the AG smacks her all around the courtroom.)
 
2013-04-10 05:49:39 PM  

TrixieDelite: Theaetetus:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...

Holy crap, make it stop.


media.tumblr.com
All colors are accepted here!
 
2013-04-10 05:52:37 PM  

Theaetetus: Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...


I am well aware that one of those is not like the other, but my point still stands, if a business owner doesn't want to do business with a member of a certain race, that should be the business owner's right.  I live near a area with a very heavy Mexican population.  There have been times when I've been in that area, stopped in to buy a coke and it was made very clear to me that I wasn't welcomed.  There was one time I was stopped at the entry way of a club one Saturday night and was told that clientele of the club was non-white and that while I wasn't being told to leave, it was heavily suggested that I wouldn't be happy at that location and it would be best if I left.
 
2013-04-10 06:03:29 PM  
Next up Jews and Arabs suing each other because they don't cater to the other's needs.
 
2013-04-10 06:07:40 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Spad31: Benevolent Misanthrope: Spad31: Gays aren't anything special. A business person not wanting to do business with someone because of their beliefs happens all the time. Why would anyone give a shiat?

Substitute "Jews" or "Blacks" for gays.

Uh, okay. Blacks or Jews aren't special. Just go spend your money somewhere else. Easy. Again, why would anyone give a shiat?

So you would be cool with a business owner refusing to serve someone because they were black?  Really?   Okay, now I know for sure you're trolling.  Got me.


And what's so wrong with it? It's their business, they can choose who they do and don't serve. The law says that you can not discriminate on EMPLOYMENT for things such as sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Let's look at it from the opposite end. You have a customer who is being a douche. They're not paying their bills, they're causing a scene every time, they're badmouthing you to others... but when you try to drop them as a customer they claim discrimination based on sexual orientation, something that's extremely hard to disprove once it reaches the public ear.

Simply put: The government has the authority to dictate HOW you sell your product or service. It has no business dictating to WHOM you sell your product or service. When the government dictates not only how you can sell, but to whom you can sell, it's a step towards communism.
 
2013-04-10 06:07:47 PM  

DemDave: umad: Uh, that is pretty much exactly what she did. From my understanding of the situation, she refused to serve them because of their support of gay marriage rather than because they are gay. Being for or against gay marriage is technically a political belief.

Yeah, there are actually several angles under which she has room to argue. It could be an interesting case (although on a personal note I certainly hope the AG smacks her all around the courtroom.)


One could then argue that it is their right to express their view by not supporting the act by proxy. In the religious person's mind they are still accountable to their deity of choice with the action they make if they know the end result is a no-no. If you know you are selling a gun to someone who will go and murder people, you are guilty of the act as well. They can't be forced to violate their beliefs for others. It isn't like this was the only option to make a purchase.
 
2013-04-10 06:09:51 PM  

Great Janitor: Theaetetus: Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...

I am well aware that one of those is not like the other, but my point still stands, if a business owner doesn't want to do business with a member of a certain race, that should be the business owner's right.  I live near a area with a very heavy Mexican population.  There have been times when I've been in that area, stopped in to buy a coke and it was made very clear to me that I wasn't welcomed.  There was one time I was stopped at the entry way of a club one Saturday night and was told that clientele of the club was non-white and that while I wasn't being told to leave, it was heavily suggested that I wouldn't be happy at that location and it would be best if I left.


Perhaps you should leave the pointy white hat at home next time.
 
2013-04-10 06:10:49 PM  
Can we force kosher butchers to handle and sell pork?

Why can we force fundies to sell gay flowers and cake?
 
2013-04-10 06:13:35 PM  

Securitywyrm: And what's so wrong with it? It's their business, they can choose who they do and don't serve. The law says that you can not discriminate on EMPLOYMENT for things such as sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Let's look at it from the opposite end. You have a customer who is being a douche. They're not paying their bills, they're causing a scene every time, they're badmouthing you to others... but when you try to drop them as a customer they claim discrimination based on sexual orientation, something that's extremely hard to disprove once it reaches the public ear.

Simply put: The government has the authority to dictate HOW you sell your product or service. It has no business dictating to WHOM you sell your product or service. When the government dictates not only how you can sell, but to whom you can sell, it's a step towards communism.


Annnnnndddd another racist libertarian reveals himself.
 
2013-04-10 06:14:22 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Can we force kosher butchers to handle and sell pork?

Why can we force fundies to sell gay flowers and cake?


Idiot, trolling, or making a stupid/incompetent  joke?   It can be hard to tell on Fark.
 
2013-04-10 06:18:21 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: ReverendJynxed: Can we force kosher butchers to handle and sell pork?

Why can we force fundies to sell gay flowers and cake?

Idiot, trolling, or making a stupid/incompetent  joke?   It can be hard to tell on Fark.


Can't answer the question?
 
2013-04-10 07:03:14 PM  

ReverendJynxed: One could then argue that it is their right to express their view by not supporting the act by proxy.


Again, businesses are not people. Businesses have no right to freedom of speech or expression. Only individuals do.
 
2013-04-10 07:09:30 PM  
I just want to say I live next door to this flowershop and I will be taking my floral business elsewhere!
 
2013-04-10 07:09:51 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Satanic_Hamster: ReverendJynxed: Can we force kosher butchers to handle and sell pork?

Why can we force fundies to sell gay flowers and cake?

Idiot, trolling, or making a stupid/incompetent  joke?   It can be hard to tell on Fark.

Can't answer the question?


It's a stupid question, hence my question towards you.

No one is forcing anyone to change the product they sell.  And what, exactly, is a gay flower or cake.  A cake that farks other cakes?
 
2013-04-10 07:14:20 PM  

Theaetetus: Great Janitor: Theaetetus: Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...

I am well aware that one of those is not like the other, but my point still stands, if a business owner doesn't want to do business with a member of a certain race, that should be the business owner's right.  I live near a area with a very heavy Mexican population.  There have been times when I've been in that area, stopped in to buy a coke and it was made very clear to me that I wasn't welcomed.  There was one time I was stopped at the entry way of a club one Saturday night and was told that clientele of the club was non-white and that while I wasn't being told to leave, it was heavily suggested that I wouldn't be happy at that location and it would be best if I left.

Perhaps you should leave the pointy white hat at home next time.


yeah yeah, I'm a racist for saying that business owners should have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason.  Never mind that I didn't say anything against any race...
 
2013-04-10 07:51:06 PM  

Great Janitor: Theaetetus: Great Janitor: Theaetetus: Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...

I am well aware that one of those is not like the other, but my point still stands, if a business owner doesn't want to do business with a member of a certain race, that should be the business owner's right.  I live near a area with a very heavy Mexican population.  There have been times when I've been in that area, stopped in to buy a coke and it was made very clear to me that I wasn't welcomed.  There was one time I was stopped at the entry way of a club one Saturday night and was told that clientele of the club was non-white and that while I wasn't being told to leave, it was heavily suggested that I wouldn't be happy at that location and it would be best if I left.

Perhaps you should leave the pointy white hat at home next time.

yeah yeah, I'm a racist for saying that business owners should have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason.  Never mind that I didn't say anything against any race...


Never mind the obvious implications behind what you did say...
 
2013-04-10 08:12:00 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: And what, exactly, is a gay flower or cake. A cake that farks other cakes?


If you GIS "goatse cake", your question might be answered.
 
2013-04-10 08:19:16 PM  
As a writer, artist, and musician, I just want to say that her defense is insulting and, well, bullshiat.

If arranging flowers is "expression" and free speech protects her, then making a pizza, decorating a cake, laying tile, and driving a cab is also "expression" and nobody should be fired for doing it "wrong" because it's an  art and they're just expressing their unique message through the  art of their manual labor.

Yes, there's artistry involved in all those things, but they most certainly are not "speech" or "expression". What the hell is she saying when she arranges flowers? What's her message? Is it anything more than "these are pretty flowers that look nice"? Because I really doubt she's trying to capture the eternal struggle of man against the ravages of time or express her political opinion with a keenly-placed bunch of mums and baby's breath.

What words or expression are in her arrangement? What original message is in EACH piece she arranged over the years? Where's her gallery exhibit, her portfolio, her published works? Has anyone ever sought to enforce their copyright on a particular arrangement of flowers? (Answer: Yes, but only because they took a photo of it and the PHOTO is copyrighted; Not the flowers).

The argument is clever, but bullshiat. If she wins with that, then prepare for fry cooks everywhere to show in court to defend their copyrighted works and seek royalties from the Waffle House for each one they design.

SUCH bullshiat.
 
2013-04-10 09:27:08 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: I'm a Person of Pallor. Several years ago I went on a job interview at a company owned by a Person of Color, and where all the employees were also Persons of Color. I fit the technical aspects of the job to a tee, but didn't get it, as the owner apologetically told me, "Sorry, legally I couldn't specify "no whites" in the ad, but you would just not fit in here."  And rather than spend my time in he-said-he-said legal bullshiat, I thanked him for his candor, went out and found another job.


Well, it's nice to have options then, isn't it?
 
2013-04-10 09:27:31 PM  
Benevolent Misanthrope:

when you deny service because someone is part of a class of persons that the law (passed by The People) says, "Knock off treating these people differently", then we have a problem.

That's what's especially interesting about this case and similar ones.  Service is not being denied because people are gay.  It's being denied because the requested service would further a gay marriage.  If a gay person came in to buy flowers for Mother's Day, I doubt this florist would refuse.
 
2013-04-10 09:33:39 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Satanic_Hamster: ReverendJynxed: Can we force kosher butchers to handle and sell pork?

Why can we force fundies to sell gay flowers and cake?

Idiot, trolling, or making a stupid/incompetent  joke?   It can be hard to tell on Fark.

Can't answer the question?


Discrimination laws can't force kosher butchers to carry non-kosher products.

Discrimination laws do prevent kosher butchers from denying service to non-kosher customers.

Does that answer your question?
 
2013-04-10 09:35:19 PM  

Voiceofreason01: BarkingUnicorn: This case is a refreshing change from the usual drill.  Normally, a gay couple would claim discrimination and the florist would claim religious freedom.  But here, the AG is claiming consumer harm and the florist is claiming free speech.

Orientation is a protected class in Washington, florist is a "place of public accommodation", florist admits to discrimination. Suit seems like a slam dunk.


But it's not about the couple's orientation; it's about their wedding.  Florist didn't refuse them because they're gay; she refused to participate in a gay wedding.
 
2013-04-10 09:42:27 PM  
Petsmart once refused to sell me rats because its staff (rightly) suspected I planned to feed snakes. I had no legal recourse even though my purpose was perfectly legal, like gay marriage in Washington.  This florist refuses to sell flowers because she knows for certain they will be used in a gay wedding.  I don't see why anyone has legal recourse against her.
 
2013-04-10 10:01:42 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I don't see why anyone has legal recourse against her.


There is the small matter of a law written that says they do have that recourse, but the bigger questions are whether the law is constitutional and whether these kind of civil rights laws, written in an era where bigotry was far more widespread and far fewer choices of public accommodation were available to people, remains necessary as written...and if so, for how much longer.

My hunch is that both sides wouldn't mind using this as a test case.
 
2013-04-10 10:17:45 PM  

TheOtherMisterP: The My Little Pony Killer: The residents of Washington State disagree with you, as our laws (you know, the entire reason the AG is involved in the first place?) state that people CANNOT deny business based on their personal feelings.

Then the laws should be changed.

Let's go the other way: could a florist refuse to provide floral service for a wedding at the Westboro Baptist Church? SHOULD they be allowed to refuse? If WBC wanted to hire any one of us for something, how would we respond?

 
2013-04-10 10:19:16 PM  

Gulper Eel: BarkingUnicorn: I don't see why anyone has legal recourse against her.

There is the small matter of a law written that says they do have that recourse, but the bigger questions are whether the law is constitutional and whether these kind of civil rights laws, written in an era where bigotry was far more widespread and far fewer choices of public accommodation were available to people, remains necessary as written...and if so, for how much longer.

My hunch is that both sides wouldn't mind using this as a test case.


Had she refused them all service because they were gay, it would be a slam-dunk.  But she only refused to sell her service for a gay wedding.  If this couple wanted flowers for a funeral, Mother's Day, or a dinner party I doubt they would be refused.
 
2013-04-10 10:54:21 PM  

Gulper Eel: BarkingUnicorn: I don't see why anyone has legal recourse against her.

There is the small matter of a law written that says they do have that recourse, but the bigger questions are whether the law is constitutional and whether these kind of civil rights laws, written in an era where bigotry was far more widespread and far fewer choices of public accommodation were available to people, remains necessary as written...and if so, for how much longer.

My hunch is that both sides wouldn't mind using this as a test case.


Now to address your "bigger question..."  Yes, discrimination is less pervasive than it was in the past, and might be so even without anti-discrimination laws.  But as long as backwater towns and counties and States exist where people cannot escape discrimination without uprooting their lives and moving, the laws need to remain.  Equal protection means that the laws must apply equally throughout the laws' jurisdiction.  State laws must apply throughout a State and federal laws must apply throughout the nation.
 
2013-04-11 12:22:35 AM  

ZeroCorpse: As a writer, artist, and musician, I just want to say that her defense is insulting and, well, bullshiat.

If arranging flowers is "expression" and free speech protects her, then making a pizza, decorating a cake, laying tile, and driving a cab is also "expression" and nobody should be fired for doing it "wrong" because it's an  art and they're just expressing their unique message through the  art of their manual labor.

Yes, there's artistry involved in all those things, but they most certainly are not "speech" or "expression". What the hell is she saying when she arranges flowers? What's her message? Is it anything more than "these are pretty flowers that look nice"? Because I really doubt she's trying to capture the eternal struggle of man against the ravages of time or express her political opinion with a keenly-placed bunch of mums and baby's breath.

What words or expression are in her arrangement? What original message is in EACH piece she arranged over the years? Where's her gallery exhibit, her portfolio, her published works? Has anyone ever sought to enforce their copyright on a particular arrangement of flowers? (Answer: Yes, but only because they took a photo of it and the PHOTO is copyrighted; Not the flowers).

The argument is clever, but bullshiat. If she wins with that, then prepare for fry cooks everywhere to show in court to defend their copyrighted works and seek royalties from the Waffle House for each one they design.

SUCH bullshiat.


Great. The Westboro Babtist Church wants to hire you to perform hate songs at one of their protests. If you refuse, you're exercising bias based on religion and they can sue you.
 
2013-04-11 01:53:02 AM  

Securitywyrm: Great. The Westboro Babtist Church wants to hire you to perform hate songs at one of their protests. If you refuse, you're exercising bias based on religion and they can sue you.


Refuse on political grounds (as stated numerous times below in regards to the WBC). Refuse because you can't agree on a fee. Refuse because you're already booked. Refuse because you have a sore throat. Refuse because you can't agree on songs to perform. Refuse because you simply don't like the venue. There are virtually infinite legal reasons on which you'd be allowed to turn them down. Just don't say it's because you disagree on their religious beliefs.
 
2013-04-11 02:02:38 AM  

DemDave: Securitywyrm: Great. The Westboro Babtist Church wants to hire you to perform hate songs at one of their protests. If you refuse, you're exercising bias based on religion and they can sue you.

Refuse on political grounds (as stated numerous times below in regards to the WBC). Refuse because you can't agree on a fee. Refuse because you're already booked. Refuse because you have a sore throat. Refuse because you can't agree on songs to perform. Refuse because you simply don't like the venue. There are virtually infinite legal reasons on which you'd be allowed to turn them down. Just don't say it's because you disagree on their religious beliefs.


Wesboro Babtist CHURCH is a religious organization, as recognized by the state of Tennessee. Try again.
 
2013-04-11 02:14:41 AM  

Securitywyrm: Wesboro Babtist CHURCH is a religious organization, as recognized by the state of Tennessee. Try again.


If you refuse to seve them because they picket soldiers' funerals, the courts have upheld that you're refusing to serve them on political grounds, not religious grounds. Try again.
 
2013-04-11 03:29:19 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: But as long as backwater towns and counties and States exist where people cannot escape discrimination without uprooting their lives and moving, the laws need to remain.


Then since there's at least one competing florist physically in Richland, who knows how many others nearby, internet florists, and now thanks to evolving customs and the kind of publicity that wouldn't have been available 50 years ago there'll be plenty of gay-friendly florists willing to step in, the justification for the law is a lot thinner because this couple is quite able to escape discrimination.
 
2013-04-11 05:36:30 AM  

DemDave: Securitywyrm: Wesboro Babtist CHURCH is a religious organization, as recognized by the state of Tennessee. Try again.

If you refuse to seve them because they picket soldiers' funerals, the courts have upheld that you're refusing to serve them on political grounds, not religious grounds. Try again.


I argue that you're doing it for religious grounds and not political grounds. You have no way to disprove what I say. Your move.
 
2013-04-11 06:52:52 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: As a gay person, I see it more as a "sitting at the whites only lunch counter" thing, but that's probably because I've been the recipient of legalized anti-gay harassment for a very long time.   Any business person has a right to deny service, but when you deny service because someone is part of a class of persons that the law (passed by The People) says, "Knock off treating these people differently", then we have a problem.


What problem? Is somebody who just wants to ignore you the same as somebody who is harassing you? You're rights aren't violated if someone refuses to associate with you.
 
2013-04-11 06:59:41 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Mr. Eugenides: Maybe it's different in Washington state.

Yes, it is.   In fact, it's illegal for businesses to deny service based on gender,race,sexual orientation, that sort of thing.  It IS a big deal.


Unless I'm on the jury at their trial. "Not guilty."
 
2013-04-11 07:02:43 AM  

ScaryBottles: Or..... You can contact a lawyer and and take them to court for their discriminatory policies just like the law allows. Now you tell me why an individual would willingly suffer this type of bigotry...


Suffer? Really? Someone says that she doesn't want to associate with you and that causes suffering? Fark that, and fark the law.
 
2013-04-11 09:20:07 AM  

Great Janitor: Theaetetus: Great Janitor: If I ran a hotel and I knew of a guy who frequented the place and each time he stayed he trashed the room and left his semen over the walls and television I'd refuse to let him stay...
Why shouldn't the ob-gyn be able to tell the woman to stop coming in because she's doesn't want to waste her breath on a woman who isn't listening to her for her own health...
If the owner decides that he doesn't want to serve Arabs, he should be free to do so...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same...

I am well aware that one of those is not like the other, but my point still stands, if a business owner doesn't want to do business with a member of a certain race, that should be the business owner's right.  I live near a area with a very heavy Mexican population.   There have been times when I've been in that area, stopped in to buy a coke and it was made very clear to me that I wasn't welcomed.  There was one time I was stopped at the entry way of a club one Saturday night and was told that clientele of the club was non-white and that while I wasn't being told to leave, it was heavily suggested that I wouldn't be happy at that location and it would be best if I left.


They still allowed you to be a patron if you desired.  So what you really are a bigot against is people that are more open minded and tolerant than you are.  Got it.
 
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