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(Some Guy)   The truths about school shootings that Huffington Post doesn't want you to read   (peterbrownhoffmeister.wordpress.com) divider line 182
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17156 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Apr 2013 at 11:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-10 01:10:10 PM

FloydA: Biff_Steel: I thought it was rock and roll that drove kids to do this.

Jazz music and the marijuana.


My war-hero-grandfather freaked out when he heard I was learning jazz in music class. "That'll lead to no good" he told my father, who as a flower wearing 60's teenager, just laughed at.
 
2013-04-10 01:15:36 PM

uttertosh: FloydA: Biff_Steel: I thought it was rock and roll that drove kids to do this.

Jazz music and the marijuana.

My war-hero-grandfather freaked out when he heard I was learning jazz in music class. "That'll lead to no good" he told my father, who as a flower wearing 60's teenager, just laughed at.



Did you end up consorting with Negroes?  The jazz music will make you do that, you know.
 
2013-04-10 01:17:11 PM
Maybe Huff Po got rid of him because he is a gun stealing psychopath.

Or is he so mentally unstable that he doesn't realize he is exactly the type of person who should spend the rest of their lives in a padded cell?

He claims he is all better now... no mention of that being certified by a mental health professional. Anyone with kids at that school should probably pull them ASAP before he "snaps" and kills all of them with another stolen gun.
 
2013-04-10 01:20:41 PM

chandler_vt: This is outrageous! Not the fact that this piece was not published on HuffPo but an idiot like this was on their blogroll.


Let me utterly blow your mind. 99% of "journalists" in the leftist, mainstream media are EXACTLY like this guy.

Who do you think got English degrees in college? The weird pothead/goth kid everyone picked on for reciting poetry in school.
 
2013-04-10 01:21:03 PM

miscreant: zepher: Let me get this straight.
Thousands and thousands of people play violent video games and every mass shooter in the last 20 years also played violent video games.
But that correlation should have zero impact on any government action or laws regarding violent video games.
Millions and millions of people own guns and every mass shooter, by definition, has used a gun to kill people.
But that correlation means the government MUST ban all scary looking weapons and severely restrict a citizen's ability to purchase or own a firearm.

Got it.

They can't take a DVD of Call of Duty and mow down 20 of their classmates.

I realize where you're coming from, but one item is an actual weapon designed to kill lots of people at once, and one is not.


While a COD DVD is not itself a weapon is it not more dangerous since it can be argued that it is training generations of kids and young adults to kill?
At that point it wouldn't matter if someone went on a rampage and killed people with a gun, knife, bomb or even a car.
 
2013-04-10 01:21:07 PM
!skcus golb ruoY

Too much "white-type-on-black-background."
 
2013-04-10 01:22:39 PM

geek_mars: While I can agree that getting teens involved in a variety of activities is probably a good thing, I don't subscribe to the idea that nature is some great mysterious anti-violence force. Taking kids hiking or canoeing or climbing can, in addition to other (yes, even non-outdoors) activities, help make kids/teens into well rounded individuals, and that sounds great, but why ban video games specifically from the list of activities? I wonder if this guy would support teaching kids/teens how to hunt. It's definitely an outdoor activity, but it uses guns and that could be practice for a killing spree. What about fishing? The next Pinhead could be practicing his torture methods for a killing spree. Imagine the carnage a 16 year old equipped with a tackle box could wreak on an elementary school! So much for the awesome healing powers of nature.


Or this angle:

The primary marker for a serial killer is the kid who plays outside all day catching and killing small animals.

Keep your kids inside on video games or they'll become serial killers!
 
2013-04-10 01:25:34 PM
First: That blog sucks
Second: The Video Game Industry has a rating system:
psychobuttons.com
Third: Dumb-ass parents ignore the rating systems then blame 'video games' when their crotch-fruit do something wrong.

/It's the parents failure.
 
2013-04-10 01:29:05 PM

Rattrap007: No wonder HP didn't publish it. The guy comes off as a nut job who blames games for everything. It is not video games. There were lots of killings before video games. Many were even worse than the ones now.


Not to mention, most of the links between shooters and video games are complete lies. Every news channel reported on how the Columbine kids played violent video games and most of the population still believes it today. In reality those kids picked on people who played video games. They weren't outcasts, they were the school bullies.

Add in the fact that every single legitimate study on the subject says that video games are a healthy outlet for negative feelings and are responsible for the drop in crime in recent years and you have a better view of the real picture.


What we have is a culture heading leftwing where parents were having drugged up sex as teenagers and as a result are unable to handle parenting their kids.
 
2013-04-10 01:29:19 PM
There are two factors in play here. First off, video games are not training for anything. My friend can shred through "Through the Fire and Flames" in Guitar Hero on the hardest setting but I doubt he could play Yankee Doodle on a real guitar if his life depended on it. Likewise, just because someone is good at Call of Duty, doesn't mean any of that would translate into real world skill. If anything, trying to behave in a real gunfight the way you play a FPS will get you even more killed. In real life you can't shake off 3 bullet wounds by holding still for 10 seconds.


Secondly, there is the issue of kids being desensitized to violence by media. This is a legitimate concern, but the kicker is that it only affects NORMAL KIDS. Normal kids might get a warped view of the world from media, but it's never going to push them into committing violence.
 
2013-04-10 01:30:15 PM

FloydA: uttertosh: FloydA: Biff_Steel: I thought it was rock and roll that drove kids to do this.

Jazz music and the marijuana.

My war-hero-grandfather freaked out when he heard I was learning jazz in music class. "That'll lead to no good" he told my father, who as a flower wearing 60's teenager, just laughed at.


Did you end up consorting with Negroes?  The jazz music will make you do that, you know.


My thoughts exactly when I read that comment. That, and by extension The Negro would introduce the lad to reefer, and its associated madness.
 
2013-04-10 01:32:12 PM

ByOwlLight: No, honey.  You were probably absolutely gun-obsessed as a kid because you felt powerless in school for whatever various social and learning reasons.  Carrying around a gun probably made you feel like you had power, because in your head you could go, "You're making me feel like shiat, but I could end your life right now.  I could.  But I'm not.  You have no idea who has the power here right now.  I do."  And that made you feel better.

Video games wouldn't have changed that.  Actually, some video games might have helped you, by giving you a feeling of control, or being able to play the hero.  There's more to video games than just FPSes, and not all FPSes are created equal, anyway.

You also probably became a high school teacher for the power thing.  You're in there, in control of the classroom like you never could have been as a kid.  And that's just sad for so many reasons.


Pretty good post. He is probably more of a danger to that class than any student is, shooters included.
 
2013-04-10 01:33:34 PM
Hodor blog hodors.
 
2013-04-10 01:34:19 PM

ferretman: crotch-fruit


I hate this term.  Fruit are delicious and that makes me a pedophile.
 
2013-04-10 01:36:38 PM

FloydA: uttertosh: FloydA: Biff_Steel: I thought it was rock and roll that drove kids to do this.

Jazz music and the marijuana.

My war-hero-grandfather freaked out when he heard I was learning jazz in music class. "That'll lead to no good" he told my father, who as a flower wearing 60's teenager, just laughed at.


Did you end up consorting with Negroes?  The jazz music will make you do that, you know.


I have peoples of all races and religions in my extended family. And I grow, so, Obviously jazz was to blame....
 
2013-04-10 01:41:05 PM

AngryJailhouseFistfark: FloydA: uttertosh: FloydA: Biff_Steel: I thought it was rock and roll that drove kids to do this.

Jazz music and the marijuana.

My war-hero-grandfather freaked out when he heard I was learning jazz in music class. "That'll lead to no good" he told my father, who as a flower wearing 60's teenager, just laughed at.


Did you end up consorting with Negroes?  The jazz music will make you do that, you know.

My thoughts exactly when I read that comment. That, and by extension The Negro would introduce the lad to reefer, and its associated madness.


And ya can't furget 'dem injuns either!
So Sayeth The Flock!
i3.ytimg.com
 
2013-04-10 01:41:21 PM
How does this crap get on fark?

Why does fark get shiattier and shiattier everyday?
 
2013-04-10 01:43:44 PM
Is there a "Gamers Anonymous?" Holy sh*t some of y'all need to attend if there is.

NERDS!.jpg
 
2013-04-10 01:46:50 PM
Anyone mention blog suckage yet?
 
2013-04-10 01:47:59 PM

zepher: Let me get this straight.
Thousands and thousands of people play violent video games and every mass shooter in the last 20 years also played violent video games.
But that correlation should have zero impact on any government action or laws regarding violent video games.
Millions and millions of people own guns and every mass shooter, by definition, has used a gun to kill people.
But that correlation means the government MUST ban all scary looking weapons and severely restrict a citizen's ability to purchase or own a firearm.

Got it.


I had you flagged as smart, but I'm not sure if I'm following where you're going here.

1.) The number of video game players is not thousands, it is multi-millions.
2.) Many (roughly half+) of the "recent" "mass shooters" have not played video games.
2a.) You may be confused about that because the media usually lies and says they did, then years later retracts it when no one is paying attention anymore. (see: columbine)
3.) Whether it would "help" or not, there is no legal standing in a free country to restrict or ban video games of any type.
4.) "Mass shooters" are rarely gun owners. Most guns used in violent crimes are stolen from legal gun owners because the shooter could not legally acquire one.
5.) Based on the Constitution and Supreme Court, regulation of firearms is a states rights issue.
 
2013-04-10 01:48:27 PM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: !skcus golb ruoY

Too much "white-type-on-black-background."


I'm now blind.
 
2013-04-10 01:48:34 PM
The huffpo wouldn't run his advertisement for his program?  Weird I tells ya!
 
2013-04-10 01:49:32 PM

justtray: "I was a psycho who got expelled from school for carrying a loaded, stolen handgun into class. Then I didn't learn my lesson and would carry around loaded sawed off shotguns. I got in lots of fights but never murdered anyone. My mom raised me to believe video games are evil, and so I do believe it, because that makes a lot of sense. Some people who did terrible things also played video games. I didn't ever murder anyone, only thought about it constantly and also thought about killing myself, so clearly video games cause murders."

I can't imagine why HuffPo wouldn't want this psychopath on their staff.


This bears repeating.
 
2013-04-10 01:50:27 PM

forever_blowing_bubbles: Maybe HuffPo didn't post your op-ed because you're a farking moran? Just a thought.


Keep in mind that this was the mind writing leftist, pro-Obama articles on Huff Po for some length of time prior to that.
 
2013-04-10 01:51:20 PM
Plenty of kids play violent video games and don't shoot people.

The one constant that has been deliberately swept under the rug is all these shooters were taking psychotropic medication that causes suicidal / homicidal thoughts.  It's not limited to school shootings...

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=drug&p=
 
2013-04-10 01:54:14 PM

wambu: Easy to see why Huffington Post didn't print this. Correlation is not causation no matter what your personal experience is.

That doesn't explain why they were dicks about telling him why they wouldn't publish it, but I suspect there is more than he shared to his asking about it that got him canned.


They probably were worried if they told him he was crazy that he'd come shoot up their office.
 
2013-04-10 01:57:20 PM

CeroX: He insinuates that Video Games are training for violence... sorry, but in real life, you don't go from standing to top speed on your first step, and real life doesn't have a heads-up reticle and a radar to tell you were all the "bad" people are... Nor does real life stick you in a meat grinder tunnel and throw 10,000 bad guys with poor aim at the end of said tunnel...

Real life has innocent high schoolers who panic and flee at the first sign of a gun, and when you are on said rampage, they are screaming in terror and crying, calling for their moms and dads and praying to whatever god they believe in to save them... Real life is seeing moms cradle the bodies of their children, and realizing that the future of that child was ripped away in an instant. It takes a special kind of sociopath to not be affected by that... not even soldiers can shrug that sh-t off... video games aren't like real life because real life is truly horrific...

So STFU about video games, they are pure fantasy, no matter how "realistic" the combat is, it isn't close to real life...


Very good point. I've seen stuff about how someone should make a movie or game or two where it is realistic just to shut people like the author here up.

When people get shot they don't just fall over and die. They bleed out, sometimes for hours, while screaming and crying and trying to claw their way to safety. Stuff like that.
 
2013-04-10 02:06:02 PM

Bullseyed: 4.) "Mass shooters" are rarely gun owners. Most guns used in violent crimes are stolen from legal gun owners because the shooter could not legally acquire one.


You've got two separate issues here, and this point is the critical failure in all the firearms regulations debate. Most of the guns in the "Mass Shootings" were legally owned by the shooter or a member of the shooter's immediate family. In contrast, the guns used in most of your "crime" shootings, that is, armed robbery, gang-warfare, that kind of thing, those tend to be obtained illegally . They're stolen or bought through straw-purchases.

The "crazy" shootings and the "crime" shootings are two entirely different things requiring different solutions. Sure, both are illegal and both stem from some degree of insanity, whether it's psychosis or some degree of anti-social personality disorder, but you are being overly simplistic if you include Columbine, Newtown, & Aurora with your gang-related shootings, the back-alley stick-up, the murder of the Texas District Attorney and his wife, and the Arizona Sheriff's Deputy shootings.
 
2013-04-10 02:09:02 PM

Bullseyed: wambu: Easy to see why Huffington Post didn't print this. Correlation is not causation no matter what your personal experience is.

That doesn't explain why they were dicks about telling him why they wouldn't publish it, but I suspect there is more than he shared to his asking about it that got him canned.

They probably were worried if they told him he was crazy that he'd come shoot up their office.


He makes me think of this guy.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-10 02:14:40 PM

slayer199: It's kind of a "well duh."

FPS games are probably not the best thing for kids with emotional problems.  It's not a cause, but a likely a symptom.

It's simple...as parents, you just limit the time your kid has on the computer.  The problem really is that too many parents let the computer babysit their teens when they really are feeling the most lost and awkward.


Another, in my opinion (and personal experience) better, option: Actually talk to and monitor your kids, biatches!  I was a loner, a "failed joiner" too, asshole.  Guess what?  I also played violent games.  I didn't have CoD, but I had DooM, but only when at my dad's (which, as time went on, became a less and less desireable place to be for reasons that do not relate to this thread, but involve words rhyming with "hog pit").  My mom, while she let me play SOME violent games, (hell, for my birthday she bought me a Dreamcast, and on a subsequent one bought me Skies of Arcadia, a game she had reservations about; I had to prove to her beforehand that (a) it wasn't as bad as she thought [which was difficult in the late 90s internet], and (b) I was mature enough to handle the violence and themes within it.  [Same with Power Stone and its sequel, but they were easier].  At the time, I was surprised she did get me Skies because, while I still had and played the demo I got from a ODCM subscription, she still voiced her objections to it.)  monitored what games I played, and outright forbid games like GTA.  When she did forbid games, she also explicitly explained why she forbid them.  It was not "because I said so"; it was "this game has you stealing cars, shooting people, breaking the law, and killing cops."  Her objection to DooM was "it has demons and gore, and you're too young/immature to handle that right now" (NOTE:  She was not, nor is not, religious.  She felt that I would have nightmares).  As I got older and more mature, the "forbidden" list shrunk.  While she limited my time, it was more because I had schoolwork to do, rather than some "go outside and play" bullshiat.
 
2013-04-10 02:15:00 PM

slayer199: It's kind of a "well duh."

FPS games are probably not the best thing for kids with emotional problems.  It's not a cause, but a likely a symptom.


That's the trouble right there.  Nobody in politics or grassroots activism knows how to distinguish those things.  They're pushing to ban the symptoms.
 
2013-04-10 02:15:28 PM
all arguments about correlation =/= causation aside...

i'm surprised more people aren't concerned about a culture that views graphically realistic representations of killing other people as entertainment.
 
2013-04-10 02:16:46 PM

friday13: slayer199: It's kind of a "well duh."

FPS games are probably not the best thing for kids with emotional problems.  It's not a cause, but a likely a symptom.

It's simple...as parents, you just limit the time your kid has on the computer.  The problem really is that too many parents let the computer babysit their teens when they really are feeling the most lost and awkward.

Another, in my opinion (and personal experience) better, option: Actually talk to and monitor your kids, biatches!  I was a loner, a "failed joiner" too, asshole.  Guess what?  I also played violent games.  I didn't have CoD, but I had DooM, but only when at my dad's (which, as time went on, became a less and less desireable place to be for reasons that do not relate to this thread, but involve words rhyming with "hog pit").  My mom, while she let me play SOME violent games, (hell, for my birthday she bought me a Dreamcast, and on a subsequent one bought me Skies of Arcadia, a game she had reservations about; I had to prove to her beforehand that (a) it wasn't as bad as she thought [which was difficult in the late 90s internet], and (b) I was mature enough to handle the violence and themes within it.  [Same with Power Stone and its sequel, but they were easier].  At the time, I was surprised she did get me Skies because, while I still had and played the demo I got from a ODCM subscription, she still voiced her objections to it.)  monitored what games I played, and outright forbid games like GTA.  When she did forbid games, she also explicitly explained why she forbid them.  It was not "because I said so"; it was "this game has you stealing cars, shooting people, breaking the law, and killing cops."  Her objection to DooM was "it has demons and gore, and you're too young/immature to handle that right now" (NOTE:  She was not, nor is not, religious.  She felt that I would have nightmares).  As I got older and more mature, the "forbidden" list shrunk.  While she limited my time, it was more because ...


I should also mention that she let me put DooM on our (at the time) shared computer when I was 14 or so, so as to give you a (rather inaccurate, but better than blind guessing) of the time scope involved.
 
2013-04-10 02:17:48 PM
What the name of the video game that Hitler used to play?
 
2013-04-10 02:17:52 PM

Mr. Eugenides: If you look at 4 factors: socially maladjusted male loner, lack of adult support, engaging in mock violence with guns, access to guns you see that all of them seem to be there for most mass shooters. There are probably more factors to consider, but I suspect that if you were to see all of those factors in an 18 year old male you only need a triggering incident for a mass shooting.


I'd say even those are nothing more than extremely broad indicators, not useful for any meaningful predictions. Even on the low side those factors describe thousands of people. Hell, they describe at least one person in every city and town, so how many does that make in the country? And yet you can count the number of mass shootings without running out of fingers and toes.
 
2013-04-10 02:20:14 PM

Franko: What the name of the video game that Hitler used to play?


Meincraft.
 
2013-04-10 02:20:30 PM

Franko: What the name of the video game that Hitler used to play?


Return to Castle Wolfenstein, but, oddly enough, not Castle Wolfenstein.
 
2013-04-10 02:22:43 PM

Franko: What the name of the video game that Hitler used to play?


Rufen zur Pflicht: der Somme
 
2013-04-10 02:26:19 PM
yawn..
 
2013-04-10 02:37:03 PM

slayer199: It's kind of a "well duh."

FPS games are probably not the best thing for kids with emotional problems.  It's not a cause, but a likely a symptom.

It's simple...as parents, you just limit the time your kid has on the computer.  The problem really is that too many parents let the computer babysit their teens when they really are feeling the most lost and awkward.


THIS, thank you.

I've played as many hours of FPS games as anyone can claim to have done.  I was, 10 years ago, in the top 100 CS players world wide.

I HAVE NEVER SHOT A HUMAN BEING.  Despite having been "accidentally" shot by my step brother (he dropped the farking gun).  I have to admit I was tempted to shoot him.
That being said, I have never shot a living animal, human, or anything else that moves.  I have shot a few trees and killed at least a couple.  (for shame, I know)
I have access to a rather absurd number of fire arms.  To be conservative, hundreds of unique firearms are available to me, mainly through family members.  They have been since I was 6 years old.

Even when I was an unhappy teenager, I never seriously considered shooting anyone.

THIS IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, it has nothing to do with guns, gun culture, video games, or any of that claptrap nonsense.
 
2013-04-10 02:42:42 PM
Also, and just a quick one here....

Video games are singularly HORRIBLE at teaching people to handle real guns.  Seriously, really really bad.

Not only do the animations in the games rarely match the actual guns mechanics, but the switches and buttons and releases are not shown in games and if they are, invariably they are shown wrong.  Furthermore, you can't run and shoot a gun and hit anything.  No one can.  Maybe the best trained military folks, but no cop, no kid and no video gamer can.

One last thing... if you have never fired a real gun, or a real Full Auto gun, a video game is not going to help you at all.  Real guns are heavy, they are loud, and they are forceful.  Your mouse doesn't have force feedback like the grip of a real gun does.  ;)  I have seen professional shooters nearly wet themselves when handed a full auto AK, and 1 minute later hand it back and say things like "omg that was insane" "too much for me" "how are you supposed to control it?".  The real thing is REAL, and it's far more than you are going to expect from a game.
 
2013-04-10 02:47:23 PM

Kahabut: Also, and just a quick one here....

Video games are singularly HORRIBLE at teaching people to handle real guns.  Seriously, really really bad.

Not only do the animations in the games rarely match the actual guns mechanics, but the switches and buttons and releases are not shown in games and if they are, invariably they are shown wrong.  Furthermore, you can't run and shoot a gun and hit anything.  No one can.  Maybe the best trained military folks, but no cop, no kid and no video gamer can.

One last thing... if you have never fired a real gun, or a real Full Auto gun, a video game is not going to help you at all.  Real guns are heavy, they are loud, and they are forceful.  Your mouse doesn't have force feedback like the grip of a real gun does.  ;)  I have seen professional shooters nearly wet themselves when handed a full auto AK, and 1 minute later hand it back and say things like "omg that was insane" "too much for me" "how are you supposed to control it?".  The real thing is REAL, and it's far more than you are going to expect from a game.


Also THIS.
 
2013-04-10 02:52:25 PM
Of course. HuffPost didn't publish this crap because this guy's a public relations nightmare no matter what the response is. He's an idiot for not seeing this point himself. Oops, nope. Sorry. He may not be an idiot, but he definitely still has issues; he's mad enough that HP didn't post his blog that he ran it himself - he's still a failed joiner. He's just an example of someone who does NOT go to engineering or business school, but instead wants to be a writer. And there you go.
 
2013-04-10 03:00:59 PM

ADHD Librarian: Perhaps the article was not published because, rather than explore the issues that caused you to be a potential shooter or the people and events which helped you become a better person, you leapt straight into the "whahhh video games, young people today with the zippity zappity. Go ride bikes..."
Way too many of your own unsubstantiated hypothesises and not enough delving into your own experiences (you know, the things that you could have a unique voice on). There are enough people who blame video games, or the indoors but there are also people who will tell you that being able to take out their frustrations on a first person shooter helped them. There are not many people who can tell you how they went from having a shotgun in their lunchbox to being a teacher.


And the blogger didn't know the difference between "who's" and "whose".
 
2013-04-10 03:01:57 PM
Kids need to be taught that thoughts are not the same as actions, and that the transition to actions have consequences that are sometimes irreversible. The goal shouldn't be to stop the human mind from occasionally imagining terrible things. The goal should be to educate kids on how not to take it past the thought stage.

In my high school days I was sort of a failed joiner too. I wanted to be cool, but I just wasn't "cool." I had violent thoughts and access to guns.

I used to go to all ages punk rock shows with mosh pits that on the surface appear very violent. In fact there was usually at least a few injuries at every show. The lyrics were very suggestive like "can I go out and kill tonight?" "I hack the heads off little girls and hang them on my walls" "making the bombs".

Kids today would be expelled or possibly arrested for simply writing the lyrics we used to sing along with. The music did not make my friends and I do terrible things. It gave us a safe outlet to vent that teen angst. Playing violent video games is the same thing.
 
2013-04-10 03:13:26 PM

what_now: I blame Judas Priest.


You've been playing the game backwards.
 
2013-04-10 03:16:02 PM

Franko: What the name of the video game that Hitler used to play?


Axis and Allies?
 
2013-04-10 03:24:43 PM

kerouac555: all arguments about correlation =/= causation aside...

i'm surprised more people aren't concerned about a culture that views graphically realistic representations of killing other people as entertainment.


As mentioned in the thread, there are no realistic or accurate representations of killing or death in mainstream video games, movies or tv.

That could be part of the problem. We have a stylized, fake view of violence, rather than a real one.
 
2013-04-10 03:36:06 PM
Funny, since first person shooters starting becoming common, gun violence in America has gone down.  I imagine (as others have pointed out) that violent games don't make people violent, but violent people are attracted to violent video games (or people in general are attracted to violent video games, most likely)
 
2013-04-10 03:44:41 PM

ferretman: First: That blog sucks
Second: The Video Game Industry has a rating system:
[psychobuttons.com image 449x285]
Third: Dumb-ass parents ignore the rating systems then blame 'video games' when their crotch-fruit do something wrong.

/It's the parents failure.


Are you seriously suggesting that parents take responsibility for the media content their children consume?!?!?!?!!? Yer crazy!
 
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