Anybody who thinks these boys being football players has anything to do with them getting away with this have never been to Nova Scotia. Football isn't exactly super popular or revered here like it is elsewhere. Trust me on this one I played varsity football in high school in Nova Scotia. We won two championships in my three years and it still wasn't that big of a deal to most people. It's getting more popular now but it's still a long way from the status of basketball, soccer, or the holiest of all sports which is, of course, hockey.

GavinTheAlmighty: It's absolutely horrible that this girl killed herself, but too many of the "facts" in this case are being reported by the victim's mother.  I can't take them at face value.

This!
If mom had been a mother her kid would be alive. Shouldn't have let her think it was ok to get inked, party and run wild

Mid_mo_mad_man: GavinTheAlmighty: It's absolutely horrible that this girl killed herself, but too many of the "facts" in this case are being reported by the victim's mother.  I can't take them at face value.

This!
If mom had been a mother her kid would be alive. Shouldn't have let her think it was ok to get inked, party and run wild

Not sure that's what  GavinTheAlmighty was saying. Mom's a flawed narrator here and she has good reason to be. She can't tell the whole story because of her bias, the police know it but won't because of privacy and the people who were there aren't talking because they may be subhuman cowards but they're not stupid. We don't have the whole story.

vygramul: WhippingBoy: vygramul: WhippingBoy: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.

Social justice isn't about justice. It's about anger and retribution.

I said you treat her as if she's telling the truth and it's entirely not her fault.

That is not the same as saying you treat THEM as if they're guilty.

Who do you mean? If you mean the "system" (e.g. law enforcement, etc.) then I completely agree.
If you mean people in general, well, good luck with that. People are assholes and will usually assume the worst of others. If your satisfaction of life or self-worth relies on other people thinking or acting a certain way about you, then you're pretty much doomed. You can't force or mandate people to be polite, decent or reasonable.

No, but when choosing between white-knighting bullies and white-knighting a girl who killed herself over (you choose) a) rape b) slut-shaming, I am not about o pick up my sword for the former.

Were this a community that was out to string up the boys who did this, with the entire school rallying to the girl's side, with little evidence, I would be more understanding of a desire to protect the boys. But even if the sex was consensual, the after-the-fact behavior of the boys and the community is not worth defending in the slightest.

The kids who bullied her (either the boys involved themselves or other kids at the school/where ever) deserve discipline without question. No one is defending them, the original point however is that while not condoning the boy's behaviour after-the-fact, there was a fair investigation in this case, and there wasn't enough evidence to move forward with rape charges. That's unfortunate especially if the allegations were true - but it's also how the justice system works. If there's no evidence and it's a he-said, she-said, you're usually at a standstill.

And that's a hell of a lot better than social mob justice. It's also no help to this girl's mother, and I completely understand her anger. It's the third parties that yell out "string 'em up" like they're extras in an old western that worry me. Because while the girl's community isn't yelling that as a whole, there are plenty of people on and offline who no doubt are (for examples, see: this thread).

E5bie: Maybe sit the kids down at length and repeatedly, to talk about feelings, growing up, self respect, and also disclose the nasty fact that social conventions exist for a reason. Assholes exist. Avoid getting into ambiguous situations, male or female, sexual or otherwise.

I agree

And anyway, why just pick on the girls?

We shouldn't. The messages needed, or the emphases needed, are different, though. We need to make sure that boys know that sex without consent is always, always, always wrong, and we need to make sure that girls are educated and empowered not to give consent lightly, or early, or unwisely.

That's sexist, but reflects a basic imbalance in human nature: boys will, by and large, have sex with anyone who allows them to so as a first step we have to encourage girls to use their power and boys to respect that use.

Mid_mo_mad_man: GavinTheAlmighty: It's absolutely horrible that this girl killed herself, but too many of the "facts" in this case are being reported by the victim's mother.  I can't take them at face value.

This!
If mom had been a mother her kid would be alive. Shouldn't have let her think it was ok to get inked, party and run wild

That's the funny thing about your reputation. No matter how badly you wish it weren't the case, you'll always be judged for your past sins.

orbister: E5bie: Maybe sit the kids down at length and repeatedly, to talk about feelings, growing up, self respect, and also disclose the nasty fact that social conventions exist for a reason. Assholes exist. Avoid getting into ambiguous situations, male or female, sexual or otherwise.

I agree

And anyway, why just pick on the girls?

We shouldn't. The messages needed, or the emphases needed, are different, though. We need to make sure that boys know that sex without consent is always, always, always wrong, and we need to make sure that girls are educated and empowered not to give consent lightly, or early, or unwisely.

That's sexist, but reflects a basic imbalance in human nature: boys will, by and large, have sex with anyone who allows them to so as a first step we have to encourage girls to use their power and boys to respect that use.

I have a bit of a problem with the underlying assumption that most "boys" in general believe that sex without consent it OK. This strikes me as a staggeringly sexist thing to think.
If what you say is true, then every time a teenage boy was alone with a teenage girl, a rape would occur. This clearly is not the case.

Flakeloaf: Not sure that's what GavinTheAlmighty was saying. Mom's a flawed narrator here and she has good reason to be. She can't tell the whole story because of her bias, the police know it but won't because of privacy and the people who were there aren't talking because they may be subhuman cowards but they're not stupid. We don't have the whole story.

Thanks - I definitely am not blaming the mother in any way - just that we'll only get one side of the story.  She is a grieving mother, and I am exceedingly sorry for her loss.  It could be that even she doesn't know all of the facts, but that said, I need to see facts come out from a party that does not have a vested interest.

MagSeven: ZeroCorpse: There are some real scumbags here.

That's all I need to say, I think.

This. I can hardly believe the amount of shiatbirds scrambling to defend these scumbags. Even if it wasn't a "rape rape" which I absolutely believe it was, these jagoffs bullied a girl into suicide, spread around kiddy porn and were high fiving each other the entire time. I don't care how much weed she claims to smoke on Tumblr, doesn't mean she or anyone deserves this. A lot of you are jumping through hoops to defend the scum of the earth. Protect your own I guess.

It's clear that RCMP and the DA ( I'm not sure what they are called in Canada) didn't agree with you and her mom? Maybe they know a little more then you do. If she did lie about being rape I don't blame them for harassing her.

So i just read her tweets instagram etc, and I can now inform you that she had a cocaine abuse problem.

For anyone that doesnt know, cocaine causes intense fits of depression and mood swings, in addition to a hundred other things.

So... theres your problem.

/Also every single picture is tagged with #drunk #stoned or talking about popping pain killers. So... she wasnt right in the head.

WhippingBoy: I have a bit of a problem with the underlying assumption that most "boys" in general believe that sex without consent it OK. This strikes me as a staggeringly sexist thing to think.

I don't think they do all believe that, but you have to teach 'em all to get to the ones you need to. Same with girls: lots of them already know that you don't need to give a boy access to your underwear if he asks.

I'm not proposing these as exclusive lesson content, by the way, just as two different messages which need to be got across during sex and relationship education.

MagSeven: ZeroCorpse: There are some real scumbags here.

That's all I need to say, I think.

This. I can hardly believe the amount of shiatbirds scrambling to defend these scumbags. Even if it wasn't a "rape rape" which I absolutely believe it was, these jagoffs bullied a girl into suicide, spread around kiddy porn and were high fiving each other the entire time. I don't care how much weed she claims to smoke on Tumblr, doesn't mean she or anyone deserves this. A lot of you are jumping through hoops to defend the scum of the earth. Protect your own I guess.

The photos being spread around were examined by police and deemed to not be illegal, which means they were not sexual.

Not sure if you're familiar with Canadian law, but if she was even in a sexual position with clothes on, the photos could have been considered illegal, so for the police to clear them, it's likely they were pretty generic "kids at a party" type shots.

My first thought when I saw Buzzfeed as the link was: "does it go to a slideshow?"

She's under 18 but has tattoos? Guessing lack of parental skills/involvement is a contributing factor here.

miss diminutive: "An investigation into an earlier sexual assault was completed, and in consultation with the Crown, there was insufficient evidence to lay charges," MacRae said.

So there's apparently picture evidence of the crime being distributed by the offenders and the Crown doesn't have enough evidence to charge them?

Also, maybe I'm already out of touch with today's youth, but who bullies a girl who's been a victim of rape? Seriously? I know I did some pretty hurtful things in my biatchy teenage days, but something like this would have never crossed my mind. I honestly don't understand.

Anyway, my heart breaks for this girl.

In the USA it would at least be distribution of child porn and every kid in the school who sent it would go to jail.

Guess Canada is a lawless, messed up place.

Popcorn Johnny: There was one photo of her having sex with one boy. Parents claim she was raped, the evidence said otherwise.

Link

They mention how her twitter said she was doing drugs, she has a tattoo in the pics and was drinking at age 15. She had real... "potential" if you include stripping as a career.

Alonjar: So i just read her tweets instagram etc, and I can now inform you that she had a cocaine abuse problem.

For anyone that doesnt know, cocaine causes intense fits of depression and mood swings, in addition to a hundred other things.

So... theres your problem.

/Also every single picture is tagged with #drunk #stoned or talking about popping pain killers. So... she wasnt right in the head.

So. Farking. What.

If anything, the fact that she may have been mentally unbalanced makes it even worse. WTF is wrong with you?

Barfmaker: Holy shiat...that's outrageously sad.

And yeah, here we are where Anonymous is now our real-life Batman equivalent.

He's the hero the internet deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.

Guilty unless proven innocent...

Bullseyed: miss diminutive: "An investigation into an earlier sexual assault was completed, and in consultation with the Crown, there was insufficient evidence to lay charges," MacRae said.

So there's apparently picture evidence of the crime being distributed by the offenders and the Crown doesn't have enough evidence to charge them?

Also, maybe I'm already out of touch with today's youth, but who bullies a girl who's been a victim of rape? Seriously? I know I did some pretty hurtful things in my biatchy teenage days, but something like this would have never crossed my mind. I honestly don't understand.

Anyway, my heart breaks for this girl.

In the USA it would at least be distribution of child porn and every kid in the school who sent it would go to jail.

Guess Canada is a lawless, messed up place.

Hi. Canadian ex-cop here. Three guesses what my specialty was if I'm in this thread :)

I said this earlier but it's a big thread, so: Depicting a child in a sex act is by definition child porn. If the photo wasn't enough to start a child porn proceeding then that means one of three things:

1. The person in the photo is not demonstrably a child (the individual can't be recognized and there's nothing obvious that distinguishes a child from, say, someone like Anne Howe (q.v., NSFW))
2. The subject of the photo is neither a sex act or the anal or genital region of a child (see #1). The real test is kinda complicated but the layman's rule is "if everyone here were fully dressed, would this still be creepy?"
3. The photo was technically child porn but the totality of the circumstances would make a conviction unlikely because of inability to prove other elements of the offense. Think of a teenaged Olson twin's head photoshopped onto some naked waif being penised: Technically that's child porn (porn depicting a child) but realistically no Crown will prosecute that because a jury would question the intent and acquit.

Not having seen the photo I couldn't guess at which one it is, but if the RCMP investigator whose job this currently is has seen it and decided that it isn't enough to go forward then I feel pretty good about not second-guessing that decision.

FTA "Multiple Anonymous-affiliated OP accounts are already trying to find and publish the identities of the four men involved with Rehtaeh's rape."

I really, truly hope they find out who these bastards are.
Anonymous, do your worst. You have my support.

heavy tatts ...

orbister: Tatterdemalian: Declaration that you're a part of rape culture in 3... 2...

Already happened, alas. It's a shame, because I have no doubt that social and legal attitudes to rape need constant revision, and branding anyone who disagrees with any aspects of one extreme position as "pro-rape" or "part of rape culture" devalues the whole debate. It is possible to think that accused rapists should get fair trials without advocating that all men carry Rohypnol just in case.

That would be great if it was politically possible. Unfortunately, there needs to be a solid legal definition of "rape" before that can happen, and the political leaders who have intentionally stretched that definition until it broke apart are only getting started, now that they have that unquestioned victory to build upon.

/the only possible end now is a government that makes The Republic of Gilead look like a hippie commune in comparison
//the fact that women will be acting as its enfocement arm will not make the handmaids' lives any better

Flakeloaf: Bullseyed: miss diminutive: "An investigation into an earlier sexual assault was completed, and in consultation with the Crown, there was insufficient evidence to lay charges," MacRae said.

So there's apparently picture evidence of the crime being distributed by the offenders and the Crown doesn't have enough evidence to charge them?

Also, maybe I'm already out of touch with today's youth, but who bullies a girl who's been a victim of rape? Seriously? I know I did some pretty hurtful things in my biatchy teenage days, but something like this would have never crossed my mind. I honestly don't understand.

Anyway, my heart breaks for this girl.

In the USA it would at least be distribution of child porn and every kid in the school who sent it would go to jail.

Guess Canada is a lawless, messed up place.

Hi. Canadian ex-cop here. Three guesses what my specialty was if I'm in this thread :)

I said this earlier but it's a big thread, so: Depicting a child in a sex act is by definition child porn. If the photo wasn't enough to start a child porn proceeding then that means one of three things:

1. The person in the photo is not demonstrably a child (the individual can't be recognized and there's nothing obvious that distinguishes a child from, say, someone like Anne Howe (q.v., NSFW))
2. The subject of the photo is neither a sex act or the anal or genital region of a child (see #1). The real test is kinda complicated but the layman's rule is "if everyone here were fully dressed, would this still be creepy?"
3. The photo was technically child porn but the totality of the circumstances would make a conviction unlikely because of inability to prove other elements of the offense. Think of a teenaged Olson twin's head photoshopped onto some naked waif being penised: Technically that's child porn (porn depicting a child) but realistically no Crown will prosecute that because a jury would question the intent and acquit.

Not having seen the photo I couldn't guess at which on ...

Everyone please read the above.

The photo was described by the mom (in another article today) as the girl "puking out a window" while a boy is behind her. It's doubful much could be seen, but being caught on camera puking out a window and having it spread around is no doubt hard on the girl's self-esteem. People spreading it around are dicks but take point 1 above into account - I'm guessing you couldn't distinguish much here.

Kome: Rape culture is a mindset that argues if she cannot say no, say for being too intoxicated - as was attempted by the defense attorney in the Steubenville trial - than she wasn't raped. Rape culture will argue simultaneously that if a rape accuser did not fight off her attacker she wasn't really raped AND that she is responsible for an assault becoming a rape for having tried to fight her attacker off, thus making her attacker more enraged and exculpating him for his reactions.

What about Party Girl Culture?

It's comprised of attention-whore females, often tattooed with an affinity for drugs and alcohol, who overtly signal their sexual availability.

I don't know how familiar you are with Party Girl Culture, but its members profess to wanting to have sex with the highest-status male they can find.  And the male counterparts to Party Girl Culture frequently think of themselves as being more high-status (i.e., attractive to Party Girls) than they actually are.

I entirely agree that everyone, even the most ardent Party Girl Culture aficionado, has the absolute right to withhold consent for sex.  (Although the central issue in a criminal rape case is slightly different -- whether there is sufficient evidence that the accused knew she did not consent, which is a few steps removed from the issue of consent per se.)

But no matter what the criminal law of rape may be defined to be, and no matter how many pots are banged on campuses, and no matter how many PR campaigns are launched, you cannot control how men perceive Party Girls.

You can rail against that until you're blue in the face, but it's just unrealistic if you think you can change that.

Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Being edgy on the internet is cool the way being random is funny. Purple monkey dishwasher.

StreetlightInTheGhetto: oh stfu.

straight-A student whose favourite subject was science.

Ummm except this image of her report card she posted on Twitter is the exact opposite of that. Note: ZERO credits earned

CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Yes. All of the above. Because rape culture. Let's hope Anonymous finds anyone who ever knew this girl and rapes them. Because irrational emotional response.

Lorelle: Popcorn Johnny: There was one photo of her having sex with one boy. Parents claim she was raped, the evidence said otherwise.

Link

From the other articles I've read, it was clear that she was drunk, the boy forced himself on her (just like the Stupidville case), and some asshole who should be outed and shamed for being one took pictures of the attack and posted them on the internet.

How do you prove that? What evidence exists besides her saying so, after the fact?

I'm really starting to think there should be some kind of rule that anything you do sexually when drunk is ruled as not rape. People need to stop blacking out drunk in strangers homes.

Lorelle: Popcorn Johnny: Sorry, you don't convict someone of rape based on the word of one person and a photo or two.

When you're so drunk that you're throwing up, it's clear that you are NOT in any condition to give consent to having sex, or to make any rational decision, for that matter.

So we should ban people from getting that drunk then, right?

CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

The ink, bad grades, constant partying, and drug use paint a long series of bad choices.

Flakeloaf: CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Being edgy on the internet is cool the way being random is funny. Purple monkey dishwasher.

We'll show you. Especially for that "purple monkey dishwasher" comment!

Flakeloaf: CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Being edgy on the internet is cool the way being random is funny. Purple monkey dishwasher.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Yes. All of the above. Because rape culture. Let's hope Anonymous finds anyone who ever knew this girl and rapes them. Because irrational emotional response.

I've asked you this before, but what the hell... have you ever seen the color grey?

CapeFearCadaver: Flakeloaf: CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Being edgy on the internet is cool the way being random is funny. Purple monkey dishwasher.

[images1.wikia.nocookie.net image 400x374]

OK I'm keeping that.

CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Nobody is saying that she deserved it. The sentiment seems to be that no one is overly surprised that it occurred.

WhippingBoy: CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

Nobody is saying that she deserved it. The sentiment seems to be that no one is overly surprised that it occurred.

Kind of like if they put Anderson Cooper in a mens' prison without pants... you kind of expect it will happen.

Lorelle: Plenty of others have seen the picture, and have stated that not only was the girl being assaulted while vomiting, the $@#! asshole who did it gave a thumb-up while doing so.

I don't see the point of pointing out that she was vomiting. There's an entire fetish involving, shall we say, 'rough oral' and 'gagging', many of which included the woman throwing up. Or so I am told.

It's certainly possible to throw up due to over-drinking. Or... from being sick. Or... from gagging on...something. Well, you get the point; "throwing up" doesn't necessarily mean "drunk".

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/10/ns-rehtaeh - suicide-reaction-todd.html  - FYI, her mother wants all the vigilantes to stop.

Also, nice to know Fark is still full of pathetic people trying to look cool on the internet, and that people deserve horrendous things to happen to them because of the way they look.

Also, look at the report card and what the dates are on it, 11-12. The events began in 2011, so maybe, just maybe, her grades might have been affected by the constant harassment and bullying she was experiencing.

I keep hearing that this infamous "rape photo" went viral, yet I have never seen it anywhere.

jxc: Photos with tongue ring, tattoos, bongs and booze = sweet innocent teenage girl
One photo no one has seen = horrible teenage boys who must be put down in the most horrible way
Strange days....

You know what.  I get that Fark is pretty anti-tattoo/piercing.  I've known that for a long time and I just ignore it.  However this type of ignorance is just flat out despicable.

For a lot of people, especially young people, modifying their bodies is a way to claim ownership of it.  This is especially true for teens who have experienced some form of trauma.  After going through an experience that robbed them of their dignity and self worth, getting a tattoo or piercing is a way to reclaim their sense of self.

So before you label this girl as a slut because she's pierced and tattooed, take a minute to think that maybe she got these modifications after her assault.  Then take another minute to realize you think it's ok to blame the victim of rape for her attack.

Some people here think she was raped.  Others think she was a drug addicted slut.  I think she was a drug addicted slut that got blacked out and raped, but there's probably not enough evidence to prove guilt.  And yes, the "alleged" attackers probably  deserve to DIAF.

BohemianGraham: Also, look at the report card and what the dates are on it, 11-12. The events began in 2011, so maybe, just maybe, her grades might have been affected by the constant harassment and bullying she was experiencing.

This happened while she was at Cole Harbour District High School. This report card was from Prince Andrew High School after she moved to start "a new life".

Maybe, just maybe, she would have gotten away from her demons if her mother had the forethought to move further away than say 4.7 farking KM to a neighboring HS.

So as the one news article asks, "Who failed Rehtaeh Parsons?"
Well for one all of her teachers. For her quality of life, that falls on herself for her own poor choices and her mom for doing shiat all to get her away from it.

impluo: BohemianGraham: Also, look at the report card and what the dates are on it, 11-12. The events began in 2011, so maybe, just maybe, her grades might have been affected by the constant harassment and bullying she was experiencing.

This happened while she was at Cole Harbour District High School. This report card was from Prince Andrew High School after she moved to start "a new life".

Maybe, just maybe, she would have gotten away from her demons if her mother had the forethought to move further away than say 4.7 farking KM to a neighboring HS.

So as the one news article asks, "Who failed Rehtaeh Parsons?"
Well for one all of her teachers. For her quality of life, that falls on herself for her own poor choices and her mom for doing shiat all to get her away from it.

Really? It's her mother's fault now? Also, if you had a child who was being bullied, you'd pack up everything and move as far away as possible, regardless of financial cost?

You know, I'm just not going to even argue this anymore. I should have known better to expect compassion from people on Fark. Rehtaeh's story isn't the first, nor will it be the last, where Farkers feel they can judge and say whatever they want on the internet because it makes them feel better about themselves.

CapeFearCadaver: Wait, are people really starting to say if a girl has tattoos she deserves to get raped? Or that she's obviously lying? Or she obviously makes bad decisions so it's cool if she was raped? Or... what?

This.

I wonder if she didn't get them until after the trauma.