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(Buzzfeed)   Girl raped at 15 and then bullied for 2 years over photos rapists took & shared online commits suicide   (buzzfeed.com) divider line 549
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  2013-04-10 11:08:59 AM
E5bie: I used to be a teen girl myself, and know too well what you are talking about. Mother felt that free love and feminism meant that I was seizing empowerment by going anywhere any time, dressed in anything,  and partying way the hell out of my age range.

There have been a couple of court cases here involving gangs of men grooming and raping teenage girls, often from broken homes or the care system. It has emerged, worryingly, that social workers knew what was going on but didn't like to do anything about it because they thought that the girls had a right to choose (sic) a sexual relationship (sic) at the age of 12 or 13 (sick) (sic).

That's not rape culture, though. It's an example of a bad judgement was made at a place where the rights of children to determine their own behaviour and the responsibility of adults to control that behaviour bang up against each other.

Sure, it's unlikely that a 13 year old can give informed consent to sex with a group of 40-something men in the grubby flat above a takeaway ... but can she give informed consent to sex with her 13 year old boyfriend? And if she can't (as I believe) how do we deal with it? I am sure that the answer is as much about empowering and liberating young women as it is about educating young men (the middle aged ones can rot in gaol).

But then, if we say that young women should be given control of their own sexuality, how do we deal with those who can't or don't exercise that control without blaming them for their victimhood? How do we tell a 12 year old that she can say "no" without also telling her that she can say "yes"?

I just don't know. These are difficult questions with ramifications throughout our society. We have the third highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, though, so we have to do better.
 
  2013-04-10 11:11:25 AM
Phinn:
Your thought process is a bit confused, and your bio page suggests a strong affinity for negative feedback. Get your head checked and carry on. You're welcome.
 
  2013-04-10 11:11:41 AM
Maul555: KatjaMouse: Rape culture is where the heinous act itself is condoned rather than condemned. Where we're free to defend rapists and blame the victim. Were a victim can be hounded out of his/her own society because of a damaged "reputation". A female Private can accuse a Sergeant of rape and be awarded with dishonorable discharge while he stays in a position of authority where he can perpetrate the crime again with little to no consequence. A teenage girl is allowed to be called a slut and adults do little to nothing about it until she ODs on pills. It's insidious and it bleeds through every level of society because we allow perpetrators to think that it's ok.

/me looks around

So no widespread rape culture in the western world then... Thanks....


Just because you think you never participated in it yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
  2013-04-10 11:11:52 AM
Want to tear your heart out and set in on fire?

Project Unbreakable

The worst ones are where parents and "friends" tell them it was their fault.
 
  2013-04-10 11:13:55 AM
vygramul: orbister: vygramul: Saying she asked for it because of how she was dressed
Saying she must've wanted it because she is a slut
Saying she was drunk and passed-out, so it's ok to fark her
Saying they're football players so we'll cover up for them
Saying she invited him in, so she led him on and deserved it

That's an incomplete list, but culture is all those things that are pervasive throughout society, so if the above are common, even if not universal, that means you have a culture that makes excuses for rapists. In other words, Rape Culture.

These things are not pervasive throughout society, or even common, thank goodness.

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience

(CITATION: White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991)

I can go on and on, complete with citations.


I can't help but notice your source is 22 years old. An entire generation has gone by since those numbers were compiled. Have any follow-up studies been done, the methodologies updated, etc?

The issue I have is that you're answering someone speaking in the present tense with a study from before the information age took off.
 
  2013-04-10 11:14:29 AM
miss diminutive: BarkingUnicorn: WTF did LE do wrong? Do you seriously expect them to waterboard confessions out of four boys just because a girl accused them? WTF is wrong with you people?

I'd be happy with feather-tickle confessions.

/seriously, 2 minutes of tickling and I'd admit to being the unabomber



Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!

For some inexplicable reason, I've always wanted to meet the unabomber........ even if only while role playing!
 
  2013-04-10 11:17:04 AM
Flagg99: I find your disrespect for fundamental human rights disturbing.

THIS.

I wish I had the option to downrate the original poster.

It is alleged because it has not been proven.

The "photos" were deemed not to be a criminal matter which likely means they show only that the girl was in the company of the boys in question but no nudity/sexual content. There wasn't enough evidence to charge them meaning DNA samples could not be obtained, or that they gave statements saying the sexual was consensual and there was no evidence obtained to the contrary (eye-witness accounts, defensive wounds, etc.).

I feel terrible for this girl but we have due process for a reason. I personally know a girl who made a false rape claim. Why? She was caught by a friend cheating on her boyfriend, so she claimed it was rape. The friend was my then-GF, and she dragged this girl to the police station to make a statement, because my then-GF fully believed the friend's story. So this girl files a statement saying "So and so forced me to have sex with him."

Days later she's bragging!! to friends about how she got away with cheating by filing a false report. This got back to my GF who confronted her and the girl admitted it. Lucky for her the police never filed charges because it was he-said she-said, and no one ever ratted her pathetic ass out for filing a false police report. My GF would have had the guy been charged because she felt responsible, but since it was dropped she did that one last favour for the friend, and no longer keeps in touch with her.

Not to say this is common, but it happens, and it's why we use the word "alleged" until a trial is held and the outcome (guilty or not) is determined.


The FBI has found the rate of unfounded rape reports to be about 8%. I'm not saying we convict people based on he-said she-said. But if a girl says she was rape, I'm going to treat it as a rape until demonstrated otherwise. And then I will burn the false accuser at the stake, because those farkers do more to advance rape culture than every "she was asking for it" ever uttered.

/Perjury of that sort should be punishable by a sentence equal to that of the actual crime.
 
  2013-04-10 11:17:06 AM
KatjaMouse: Maul555: KatjaMouse: Rape culture is where the heinous act itself is condoned rather than condemned. Where we're free to defend rapists and blame the victim. Were a victim can be hounded out of his/her own society because of a damaged "reputation". A female Private can accuse a Sergeant of rape and be awarded with dishonorable discharge while he stays in a position of authority where he can perpetrate the crime again with little to no consequence. A teenage girl is allowed to be called a slut and adults do little to nothing about it until she ODs on pills. It's insidious and it bleeds through every level of society because we allow perpetrators to think that it's ok.

/me looks around

So no widespread rape culture in the western world then... Thanks....

Just because you think you never participated in it yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Just because it's a theory that supports your worldview doesn't mean it does exist.
 
  2013-04-10 11:18:07 AM
Bontesla: NewportBarGuy: I want to say "Why didn't her parents take her off the net (no internet no cell phone)?", but reality set in. What a f*cking horrible thing.

I hope the assholes die of ass cancer, slowly.

I'm rooting for the Anonymous.


Same
 
  2013-04-10 11:18:19 AM
vygramul: Go into a high school classroom that hasn't had the benefit of an actual discussion about something like this and ask the question if it's ok for a boy to fondle a girl who is passed out.

It would also be interesting to ask how many girls would think it acceptable to fondle a boy who was passed out.

You'll be dismayed at how many people answer in the affirmative. Ask how many think it's ok for a guy to rape a girl if he feels he "led him on". Ask how many think it's ok if the guy is just really, really horny. You want to hate humanity? You want to feel like you need a bath? Go do that.

I have no doubt that the answers would be depressing, and I also have no doubt that you wouldn't find as much divergence between the boys' answers and the girls' answers.

But.

You're talking about teenagers, coming to terms with raging hormones and a whole new sphere of experience. Yes, they are likely to have worrying, upsetting or simply naïve views. But that's part of being a teenager. They have worrying, upsetting or simply naïve views about everything. About drinks, drugs, relationships, politics, race, religion - about anything involving an opinion. And they are in school, where we can educate them. We can teach them that sex isn't just about sticking A into B, but that it's a part of human relationships and indivisible from other emotions. We can point out that for all the publicity given to the hookup culture, it leaves young women in particular feeling as used, cheated and exploited as it did forty years ago when it was called "free love".

Untutored human views on sex are depressing, but untutored human views on everything are depressing. That's why "Lord of the Flies" is still relevant today.
 
  2013-04-10 11:18:58 AM
Holy crap who cares.

Dead teen in Canada.
 
  2013-04-10 11:21:36 AM
vygramul: In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience


Would you take the views of high school students on politics as indicative of the culture of society as a whole?

/crossed with longer reply, will leave it there.
 
  2013-04-10 11:21:39 AM
Carousel Beast: I can't help but notice your source is 22 years old. An entire generation has gone by since those numbers were compiled. Have any follow-up studies been done, the methodologies updated, etc?

The issue I have is that you're answering someone speaking in the present tense with a study from before the information age took off.


2010: This might be pretty dense material, but essentially, 56% of incoming college freshmen believed in many of the 'she asked for it" rape myths.
 
  2013-04-10 11:23:38 AM
Fluorescent Testicle: Nidiot: I'd like to know what some people would regard as sufficient evidence before you'd accept a girl's claim of being raped?

Most of Fark's pro-rape contingent wouldn't accept it if the guy held a national press conference to announce that he can't get it up unless there's rape involved. They don't believe that there's even such a thing as rape (and are trolls - mostly the troll thing, really).


"Pro rape contingent"?? Jesus some of you people are mentally unwell.
 
  2013-04-10 11:26:09 AM
vygramul: The FBI has found the rate of unfounded rape reports to be about 8%.

Director of Public Prosecutions says about 5% in the UK. Pretty similar. High enough that allegations must be carefully rested, low enough that they must by default be respected.
 
  2013-04-10 11:26:41 AM
vygramul: Flagg99: I find your disrespect for fundamental human rights disturbing.

THIS.

I wish I had the option to downrate the original poster.

It is alleged because it has not been proven.

The "photos" were deemed not to be a criminal matter which likely means they show only that the girl was in the company of the boys in question but no nudity/sexual content. There wasn't enough evidence to charge them meaning DNA samples could not be obtained, or that they gave statements saying the sexual was consensual and there was no evidence obtained to the contrary (eye-witness accounts, defensive wounds, etc.).

I feel terrible for this girl but we have due process for a reason. I personally know a girl who made a false rape claim. Why? She was caught by a friend cheating on her boyfriend, so she claimed it was rape. The friend was my then-GF, and she dragged this girl to the police station to make a statement, because my then-GF fully believed the friend's story. So this girl files a statement saying "So and so forced me to have sex with him."

Days later she's bragging!! to friends about how she got away with cheating by filing a false report. This got back to my GF who confronted her and the girl admitted it. Lucky for her the police never filed charges because it was he-said she-said, and no one ever ratted her pathetic ass out for filing a false police report. My GF would have had the guy been charged because she felt responsible, but since it was dropped she did that one last favour for the friend, and no longer keeps in touch with her.

Not to say this is common, but it happens, and it's why we use the word "alleged" until a trial is held and the outcome (guilty or not) is determined.

The FBI has found the rate of unfounded rape reports to be about 8%. I'm not saying we convict people based on he-said she-said. But if a girl says she was rape, I'm going to treat it as a rape until demonstrated otherwise. And then I will burn the false accuser at the stake, because those farkers do more to advance rape culture than every "she was asking for it" ever uttered.

/Perjury of that sort should be punishable by a sentence equal to that of the actual crime.


Guilty until proven innocent is a great policy.
 
  2013-04-10 11:27:01 AM
orbister: High enough that allegations must be carefully rested tested

FTFM
 
  2013-04-10 11:27:50 AM
orbister: vygramul: Saying she asked for it because of how she was dressed
Saying she must've wanted it because she is a slut
Saying she was drunk and passed-out, so it's ok to fark her
Saying they're football players so we'll cover up for them
Saying she invited him in, so she led him on and deserved it

That's an incomplete list, but culture is all those things that are pervasive throughout society, so if the above are common, even if not universal, that means you have a culture that makes excuses for rapists. In other words, Rape Culture.

These things are not pervasive throughout society, or even common, thank goodness.


This. Do they happen? Yes. And when they do the people behind such comments are raked over the coals, and rightfully so.

That doesn't make a culture.

My high school Sex-Ed class had an entire unit on consent, including covering the fact that consent can't be given in some circumstances (age, intoxication, etc.) and that was 20 years ago. Our "culture" (if you're referring to western culture) condemns rape and has for at least the past few decades. However, social justice movements give people an empowerred feeling, something of a rush, and come with trendy slogans.

I would say sex crimes are actually treated with more reverence than even murder. They are the most sensitive area of the criminal justice system, and a few sad examples don't make a culture.
 
  2013-04-10 11:28:13 AM
vygramul: Carousel Beast: I can't help but notice your source is 22 years old. An entire generation has gone by since those numbers were compiled. Have any follow-up studies been done, the methodologies updated, etc?

The issue I have is that you're answering someone speaking in the present tense with a study from before the information age took off.

2010: This might be pretty dense material, but essentially, 56% of incoming college freshmen believed in many of the 'she asked for it" rape myths.


It won't accept the URL even though it works for me:

https://psy.psych.colostate.edu/Research/Spring/Article7.pdf
 
  2013-04-10 11:29:06 AM
Generation_D: Holy crap who cares.

Dead teen in Canada.


No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
 
  2013-04-10 11:33:33 AM
I am not a violent person by nature, but it's shiat like this that makes me want to go all Al Capone on the 4 pieces of walking fecal matter that would do this as well as anyone involved in bullying this poor girl ...

// I want them DEAD, I want their families DEAD, I want their homes burned to the GROUND ...
 
  2013-04-10 11:34:26 AM
orbister: vygramul: In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience

Would you take the views of high school students on politics as indicative of the culture of society as a whole?

/crossed with longer reply, will leave it there.


You're asking good questions. Unfortunately, the older the person, the worse the attitude towards victims.

(In case that link doesn't work:
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/4925HomeComputer/Rape%2 0 myths/Attitudes%20Toward%20Victims.pdf )

They suspect that greater education programs are changing the attitudes and awareness of violence towards women.
 
  2013-04-10 11:36:19 AM
Flagg99: orbister: vygramul: Saying she asked for it because of how she was dressed
Saying she must've wanted it because she is a slut
Saying she was drunk and passed-out, so it's ok to fark her
Saying they're football players so we'll cover up for them
Saying she invited him in, so she led him on and deserved it

That's an incomplete list, but culture is all those things that are pervasive throughout society, so if the above are common, even if not universal, that means you have a culture that makes excuses for rapists. In other words, Rape Culture.

These things are not pervasive throughout society, or even common, thank goodness.

This. Do they happen? Yes. And when they do the people behind such comments are raked over the coals, and rightfully so.

That doesn't make a culture.

My high school Sex-Ed class had an entire unit on consent, including covering the fact that consent can't be given in some circumstances (age, intoxication, etc.) and that was 20 years ago. Our "culture" (if you're referring to western culture) condemns rape and has for at least the past few decades. However, social justice movements give people an empowerred feeling, something of a rush, and come with trendy slogans.

I would say sex crimes are actually treated with more reverence than even murder. They are the most sensitive area of the criminal justice system, and a few sad examples don't make a culture.


Read my following posts for citations to studies that prove otherwise and that these are not just a few sad examples.
 
  2013-04-10 11:37:25 AM
NutWrench: "An investigation into an earlier sexual assault was completed, and in consultation with the Crown, there was insufficient evidence to lay charges," MacRae said.

Well, other than the photos of the actual rape that everybody passed around. WTF?


Well, obviously the stories differed as to whether it was consensual or not.

I guess since it was a party, then they couldn't convict anyone of rape if everyone at the party claimed it was consensual. Everyone could be lying, but based on that, how could you convict anyone?


Passing the pictures around however ought to pretty easy to convict people for. If she was pictured naked it would be childporn.
 
  2013-04-10 11:37:49 AM
Abacus9: The reason they call it alleged is because the scum was never convicted. They weren't even tried. It's messed up, but "alleged" is always used by media so they can't get sued.

I get that the media might not want to name the boys and call them rapists. Alleged rapists protects the media.
But the woman reported the rape. She didnt report an alleged rape.
They can safely call what happened to her as rape and be protected from suit.
The unconvicted rapists were not named, nor were the child porn distributors.

It is clear that a number of crimes were committed. Calling them alleged crimes is just re-injuring the victim of the crime.
I agree that perps are alleged perps until they are convicted.

and none of this matters
not as long as the conviction rate for rape continues to be so close to zero and dont get me started about bullying and harassment and ignoring mental health issues.
 
  2013-04-10 11:41:05 AM
vygramul: Maul555: yeah ummm.... I don't see this happening...

That's because you have either been raised right in a family that approaches such things appropriately, or you simply haven't experienced what happens when many women get raped, or haven't been paying attention. Just look at this case. And Steubenville. You think these are outliers?


*Yes

Go into a high school classroom that hasn't had the benefit of an actual discussion about something like this and ask the question if it's ok for a boy to fondle a girl who is passed out. You'll be dismayed at how many people answer in the affirmative. Ask how many think it's ok for a guy to rape a girl if he feels he "led him on". Ask how many think it's ok if the guy is just really, really horny. You want to hate humanity? You want to feel like you need a bath? Go do that.

And then come back and report how such widespread ideas are neither cultural nor about rape.


*I know of no such study that has been done
 
  2013-04-10 11:42:45 AM
vygramul: orbister: vygramul: Saying she asked for it because of how she was dressed
Saying she must've wanted it because she is a slut
Saying she was drunk and passed-out, so it's ok to fark her
Saying they're football players so we'll cover up for them
Saying she invited him in, so she led him on and deserved it

That's an incomplete list, but culture is all those things that are pervasive throughout society, so if the above are common, even if not universal, that means you have a culture that makes excuses for rapists. In other words, Rape Culture.

These things are not pervasive throughout society, or even common, thank goodness.

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience

(CITATION: White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991)

I can go on and on, complete with citations.


I stand corrected...   wtf...
 
  2013-04-10 11:43:13 AM
doglover: Barfmaker: Anonymous is now our real-life Batman equivalent.

They're more like Oracle.

Lorelle: It REALLY makes me sick knowing that other females also attacked her after the fact.

Teenage girls are the least compassionate creatures on the planet. Even honey badger steers clear. Teenage boys are right behind them. I think it's some kind of mixture of ignorance and hormones.



I started to agree, but then I thought, Wait a minute: how is it that girls who are verbally abusing a rape victim are worse than the guy who does the rape?  Is it because girls are supposed to know better?  That they are supposed to be more compassionate?

I hate that argument: it's worse when a woman does it because women are supposed to be born nurturers.  They're supposed to want to care for and comfort people and put other people's needs before their own.  It's okay for men to do it; it's expected that they're sometimes selfish and aggressive.

Sorry but many women aren't "built" with capabilities to empathize with others, even other women.  Just like many men aren't built to empathize with other guys' nightmarish situations.   Those women who have harassed Parsons are probably the types of people that think they wouldn't "be stupid enough" to get raped.  It's horrid that anybody, male or female, thinks like that.
 
  2013-04-10 11:47:20 AM
vygramul: Flagg99: I find your disrespect for fundamental human rights disturbing.

THIS.

I wish I had the option to downrate the original poster.

It is alleged because it has not been proven.

The "photos" were deemed not to be a criminal matter which likely means they show only that the girl was in the company of the boys in question but no nudity/sexual content. There wasn't enough evidence to charge them meaning DNA samples could not be obtained, or that they gave statements saying the sexual was consensual and there was no evidence obtained to the contrary (eye-witness accounts, defensive wounds, etc.).

I feel terrible for this girl but we have due process for a reason. I personally know a girl who made a false rape claim. Why? She was caught by a friend cheating on her boyfriend, so she claimed it was rape. The friend was my then-GF, and she dragged this girl to the police station to make a statement, because my then-GF fully believed the friend's story. So this girl files a statement saying "So and so forced me to have sex with him."

Days later she's bragging!! to friends about how she got away with cheating by filing a false report. This got back to my GF who confronted her and the girl admitted it. Lucky for her the police never filed charges because it was he-said she-said, and no one ever ratted her pathetic ass out for filing a false police report. My GF would have had the guy been charged because she felt responsible, but since it was dropped she did that one last favour for the friend, and no longer keeps in touch with her.

Not to say this is common, but it happens, and it's why we use the word "alleged" until a trial is held and the outcome (guilty or not) is determined.

The FBI has found the rate of unfounded rape reports to be about 8%. I'm not saying we convict people based on he-said she-said. But if a girl says she was rape, I'm going to treat it as a rape until demonstrated otherwise. And then I will burn the false accuser at the stake, because thos ...


8% is a pretty high number to me. I'm actually shocked it's that high, I only have my real-life experience to go on, and that's basically a number lower than 8%. 8% of accusations, based on the number of crimes reported, would likely be hundreds if they cover just a single country (depending on which), no?

And no one said don't treat it as rape, but the word "alleged" it justified by both legal terms and common sense.

I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.
 
  2013-04-10 11:48:41 AM
Langdon_777: Wow you really are a piece of work.

Prison is not necessary, just names and pics - that way the mob can deal with it.


Yeah, I'm the piece of work. It's absolutely mind blowing how people like you react to stories like this. The bottom line is that you don't convict people of crimes when there's no evidence that one was committed. Is that really so hard for you and the rest of the mob to grasp?
 
  2013-04-10 11:52:01 AM
Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.
 
  2013-04-10 11:54:50 AM
orbister: E5bie: I used to be a teen girl myself, and know too well what you are talking about. Mother felt that free love and feminism meant that I was seizing empowerment by going anywhere any time, dressed in anything,  and partying way the hell out of my age range.

There have been a couple of court cases here involving gangs of men grooming and raping teenage girls, often from broken homes or the care system. It has emerged, worryingly, that social workers knew what was going on but didn't like to do anything about it because they thought that the girls had a right to choose (sic) a sexual relationship (sic) at the age of 12 or 13 (sick) (sic).

That's not rape culture, though. It's an example of a bad judgement was made at a place where the rights of children to determine their own behaviour and the responsibility of adults to control that behaviour bang up against each other.


I never said it was rape culture. Bad judgement though? YES. Especially considering that a 13 year old can't drive herself to the doctor if Uncle Pimp decides it's time for a baby.

Sure, it's unlikely that a 13 year old can give informed consent to sex with a group of 40-something men in the grubby flat above a takeaway ... but can she give informed consent to sex with her 13 year old boyfriend? And if she can't (as I believe) how do we deal with it? I am sure that the answer is as much about empowering and liberating young women as it is about educating young men (the middle aged ones can rot in gaol).

But then, if we say that young women should be given control of their own sexuality, how do we deal with those who can't or don't exercise that control without blaming them for their victimhood? How do we tell a 12 year old that she can say "no" without also telling her that she can say "yes"?


Maybe sit the kids down at length and repeatedly, to talk about feelings, growing up, self respect, and also disclose the nasty fact that social conventions exist for a reason. Assholes exist. Avoid getting into ambiguous situations, male or female, sexual or otherwise.

And anyway, why just pick on the girls? My husband and I encourage our teenage sons to ignore the overcharged dating culture around them and focus on academics, long-term goals, and self-improvement during their school years. (Do they get razzed for it by peers? Yes, but so far they seem to be OK.) We watch TV programs with romantic content and talk about relationships, and different ways that they can work (or not) for the people involved. Above all, we treat our kids as whole emerging human beings, not as extensions of our egos or, ahem, worse. I think that even today boys are more likely to be treated this way than girls, unfortunately. And if there is a sad lack of parenting going on in the world, I attribute it to a sad lack of real LOVE among humans in general. Culture can help, but only so far. So yeah, I agree, it's tricky.
 
  2013-04-10 12:03:00 PM
vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.


The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.
 
  2013-04-10 12:05:43 PM
orbister: Long delay, looks like you covered my comments already. Very articulately too. Kudos.
 
  2013-04-10 12:06:29 PM
Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.


You're conflating how we treat the victim with how we treat the accused.

I said you treat her as if she's telling the truth and it's entirely not her fault.

That is not the same as saying you treat THEM as if they're guilty.
 
  2013-04-10 12:10:04 PM
Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.


Social justice isn't about justice. It's about anger and retribution.
 
  2013-04-10 12:11:03 PM
WhippingBoy: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.

Social justice isn't about justice. It's about anger and retribution.


I said you treat her as if she's telling the truth and it's entirely not her fault.

That is not the same as saying you treat THEM as if they're guilty.
 
  2013-04-10 12:11:39 PM
NewportBarGuy: I want to say "Why didn't her parents take her off the net (no internet no cell phone)?", but reality set in. What a f*cking horrible thing.

I hope the assholes die of ass cancer, slowly.


That wouldn't have helped--the photos were being distributed to classmates.

miss diminutive: So there's apparently picture evidence of the crime being distributed by the offenders and the Crown doesn't have enough evidence to charge them?

You're assuming their faces are in the pictures.

Popcorn Johnny: There was one photo of her having sex with one boy. Parents claim she was raped, the evidence said otherwise.

No, the investigation didn't charge anybody but that's not proof it was consensual.  Drunk he-said/she-said, if she didn't go to the cops right away it would be basically impossible to convict unless someone was stupid enough as to confess.

It does sound like they did a bad job, though--I'm wondering what connections the boys have.

Jim_Callahan: Pictures taken of the rape of an underage girl and redistributed by the accusers but the police found there was insufficient evidence to lay charges?

I suspect there's a lot to this story that's not being shared by the article, there.  My money is on "the pictures didn't actually depict the crime and the parent is just trying to mitigate their own guilt over not responding to bullying by making shiat up" at minimum.


The pictures probably show sex but aren't enough to show whether it was consensual or not.
 
  2013-04-10 12:12:21 PM
The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" principle only applies when females make the accusations, preferably in ways that fit into an anti-male political agenda.
 
  2013-04-10 12:14:30 PM
Phinn: The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" principle only applies when females make the accusations, preferably in ways that fit into an anti-male political agenda.

No one on fark can possibly make that accusation with a straight face. A recent high-profile counter-example is so damn obvious you're going to feel like an idiot when you figure it out or have it pointed out to you.
 
  2013-04-10 12:29:10 PM
vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.


Lets be fair - the police didn't mock her. Kids at her school did. And I'm all for eliminating that, but that's an issue with teens and bullying. No one said they didn't treat her as 100% right, but they investigated, the "photo evidence" didn't even qualify as illegal, and there was no evidence of rape.

Frankly I say charge the worst offenders who were bullying her with harassment, as has been done in Canada before.
 
  2013-04-10 12:29:17 PM
vygramul: WhippingBoy: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.

Social justice isn't about justice. It's about anger and retribution.

I said you treat her as if she's telling the truth and it's entirely not her fault.

That is not the same as saying you treat THEM as if they're guilty.


Who do you mean? If you mean the "system" (e.g. law enforcement, etc.) then I completely agree.
If you mean people in general, well, good luck with that. People are assholes and will usually assume the worst of others. If your satisfaction of life or self-worth relies on other people thinking or acting a certain way about you, then you're pretty much doomed. You can't force or mandate people to be polite, decent or reasonable.
 
  2013-04-10 12:31:57 PM
The four who did this should be shot in the feet, then knees, then thighs, then hips, then arms, then shoulders, then ears, then nuts.

As for the girl's parents, where were they with all this odd behavior with a minor?  Drinking, tattoos, partying?  Seriously, if you want to shape your kids into healthy people there has to be some level of discipline and teaching them the approval of their peers is bullshiat.  Social media isn't the culprit here, but replying on it the way she did made a bad situation worse.
 
  2013-04-10 12:36:04 PM
Flagg99: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

Lets be fair - the police didn't mock her. Kids at her school did. And I'm all for eliminating that, but that's an issue with teens and bullying. No one said they didn't treat her as 100% right, but they investigated, the "photo evidence" didn't even qualify as illegal, and there was no evidence of rape.

Frankly I say charge the worst offenders who were bullying her with harassment, as has been done in Canada before.


That is exactly what the Province is looking into doing. There's been a lot of justifiable dogpiling on the ponywhackers these days but there's absolutely no indication the RCMP dogged this one.
 
  2013-04-10 12:37:58 PM
It's absolutely horrible that this girl killed herself, but too many of the "facts" in this case are being reported by the victim's mother.  I can't take them at face value.
 
  2013-04-10 12:38:27 PM
Flagg99: 8% is a pretty high number to me. I'm actually shocked it's that high, I only have my real-life experience to go on, and that's basically a number lower than 8%. 8% of accusations, based on the number of crimes reported, would likely be hundreds if they cover just a single country (depending on which), no?

There are two things to note, however. The first is that reports are different than accusations. "I was raped" is a report. "That man raped me" is an accusation. As a parallel, you file a police report when you are involved in an accident and the other person flees the scene, even if you didn't get the license plate number or anything. That doesn't mean you have accused any particular person for the police to investigate, just that you have a report - which can come in handy later but legally doesn't do jack or sh*t to the person who t-boned your car. The second note is that "unfounded" does not mean "false." In legal contexts, to the best of my knowledge, "unfounded" certainly includes false reports, but also reports that cannot be followed up. If, for instance, a woman files a report that says she was raped but does not (or can not?) provide any details such as where or when or what was else was going on at the time (e.g. a party, a date, walking home, etc.) then that gets filed as "unfounded". There are no details, nothing for police to go on. But it doesn't mean it's a false report, much less a false accusation. False accusations account for approximately 2% of all accusations. But it does imply that 98% of accusations are not false (not "true", just "not false"), which makes the approximately 10% of rape cases that result in a trial/confession and the 2% of cases that result in any jail time (the vast majority of which are for less time than possession of cannabis convictions, mind you) for the accused much more abhorrent.

I am speaking to US statistics, by the way. Things are potentially different in Canada, UK, Australia, etc. etc.
 
  2013-04-10 12:38:34 PM
WhippingBoy: vygramul: WhippingBoy: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: vygramul: Flagg99: I'm all for doing a second investigation in this case even. I just don't want to break out the pitchforks just yet.

I guess I'm more victim-focused in that this girl, when alive, should not have had her experience diminished, much less mocked. Always treat an accuser as if they are 100% right. That's not to say the criminal justice system should treat the accused as guilty before they even start investigating. But she should be cared for and protected by everyone.

I'm not sure what the incidence is of suicide is among false rape accusers, but I bet the incidence of victims whose communities abandoned them is high.

The "accused are guilty until proven innocent" crowd is really frightening.

Social justice isn't about justice. It's about anger and retribution.

I said you treat her as if she's telling the truth and it's entirely not her fault.

That is not the same as saying you treat THEM as if they're guilty.

Who do you mean? If you mean the "system" (e.g. law enforcement, etc.) then I completely agree.
If you mean people in general, well, good luck with that. People are assholes and will usually assume the worst of others. If your satisfaction of life or self-worth relies on other people thinking or acting a certain way about you, then you're pretty much doomed. You can't force or mandate people to be polite, decent or reasonable.


No, but when choosing between white-knighting bullies and white-knighting a girl who killed herself over (you choose) a) rape b) slut-shaming, I am not about o pick up my sword for the former.

Were this a community that was out to string up the boys who did this, with the entire school rallying to the girl's side, with little evidence, I would be more understanding of a desire to protect the boys. But even if the sex was consensual, the after-the-fact behavior of the boys and the community is not worth defending in the slightest.
 
  2013-04-10 12:39:35 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com

Is there a problem?
 
  2013-04-10 12:46:24 PM
Popcorn Johnny: Lorelle: When you're so drunk that you're throwing up, it's clear that you are NOT in any condition to give consent to having sex, or to make any rational decision, for that matter.

So you've seen the picture? It's of a drunk girl passed out in a pile of her own vomit, being banged by a dude?

Oh wait, of course you haven't seen the picture, you have no farking idea what really happened. Since you're a chick, you automatically believe a girl when they say they were raped. Lets just ignore evidence and stuff and start convicting guys of rape whenever a woman says so. Women would never lie, right?


Plenty of others have seen the picture, and have stated that not only was the girl being assaulted while vomiting, the $@#! asshole who did it gave a thumb-up while doing so.

You're obviously the kind of jerk who, if he saw his own mother being raped, would film the attack, high-five the rapist afterwards, kick his mother in the cooter, refuse to call the police or get medical help for her, post the video online, tell everyone that his mother was a whore, drive her to commit suicide, and then whine because she cut him out of her will.
 
  2013-04-10 12:46:41 PM
There are some real scumbags here.

That's all I need to say, I think.
 
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