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(The Daily Caller)   By the way, we won the Iraq war   (dailycaller.com) divider line 118
    More: Hero, Iraq, Maliki, Prime Minister of Iraq  
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7383 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Apr 2013 at 1:42 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-04-09 11:45:26 AM
24 votes:
One more victory like that and we are surely lost.
2013-04-09 11:46:42 AM
9 votes:
The guy who is now in charge of Iraq appreciates us helping him get there?  I. am. shocked.
2013-04-09 11:40:54 AM
8 votes:
Oh yeah, what did we win?  And at what cost did we win it?  Sure 1000 times the blood and treasure we expected based on the Republican leaderships promises, lies, and short sighted estimates.  And we put the same people in charge of Iraq that threw us out of Iran.  Mission accomplished
2013-04-09 02:41:06 PM
5 votes:
By the way, Subby, we lost 4,486 KIA. Well, we know where most of them are.

www.arlingtoncemetery.net

Now, Subby, if you want to talk about wounded...amputees, PTSD, brain damage...you can look up the numbers. They're frightening.

Oh, and here's some truly frightening statistics. The BBC reported April 17, 2009, "According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed."

And here's a pic of the one building the Coalition protected when we entered Baghdad.

1.bp.blogspot.com

The Ministry of Oil building.

Those volunteers you see standing around? Many of them volunteered to go to Afghanistan and kill Al Qaeda

Victory for a few. Death, wounds, mental illness, rape and lots of other stuff for many.
2013-04-09 01:50:06 PM
5 votes:
Dear Daily Caller:
No one, I think, disputes we "won" the Iraq war.  The dispute is over why we fought it and if we even should have fought it.  And, for that matter, how much it cost us.

I'll never understand the "conservative" mindset over "winning" everything, even the things that don't matter.
2013-04-09 12:55:39 PM
5 votes:
Well, that's weird. That whole thing was George Bush's idea, wasn't it? And yet this guy is claiming it was the right thing to do? How can that be right?

Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009? But then, as the great lady once said: What difference does it make?


We're seriously having a conversation about an opinion piece in the Daily Caller - like it matters?
2013-04-09 12:10:50 PM
5 votes:
Yes, just as I won that war with the canoe by punching a hole in it.

Sure, I got wet, but I won dammit!
2013-04-09 11:50:53 AM
5 votes:
Here I thought it was the biggest mistake ever, by the most evil president ever. At least that's what I've been told again and again by our moral, ethical, and intellectual betters on the left.

Someone wanna tell this guy you can win a war or lose a war but that says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the war?
2013-04-09 11:43:50 AM
5 votes:
We shouldn't have fought it in the first place.
2013-04-09 02:39:20 PM
4 votes:
I give absolutely no farks at all what this guy thinks, it still wasn't worth it.  Removing Saddam wasn't worth one American life.
2013-04-09 02:28:19 PM
4 votes:
Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009?

Nobody remembers that because it didn't happen.  More selective memory by Republican shills.

Nobody is doubting that we "won" in Iraq.  What people are looking at are what did we win?

--An "ally" that might be increasingly unstable and less reliable as time goes on.
--Trillions of dollars piled onto our national debt.
--Higher gas prices.
--And, most importantly, thousands of dead military personnel with thousands and thousands more permanently disfigured (which we will be continuing to pay for for decades -- so billions of dollars more piled onto the nation debt).
--Egg on our faces when we didn't find these massive stockpiles of WMDs coupled with international anger for pursuing this war in the first place.

Saddam Hussein and his evil minions and sons are all gone.  This is a good thing.  Hooray us.  We won.  But the cost may not have been worth it.  THAT is the point people have been trying to make.
2013-04-09 02:00:42 PM
4 votes:

Lost Thought 00: What percentage of their oil reserves do we control? How much plunder did the troops return with?


www.aljazeera.com

Western oil firms remain as US exits Iraq

The US government didn't get the plunder, the US oil corporations did.
2013-04-09 01:56:45 PM
4 votes:
What exactly did we win?

What agenda that was in the US interest did we actually accomplish.

The author says we have a better Iraq. Then does he also condone that we attack every country that we would consider we could make a better government? If so that's a lot of wars.

Pretending we attacked Iraq for the purpose to force Saddam Hussein out is rewriting history. We did not. That rational was created only because the previous rationals were all found to be lies.
2013-04-09 01:50:32 PM
4 votes:
I remember hearing that all the Iraqi soldiers kept 'melting away' (like the Wicked Witch of the West, I guess).

Turns out -- and this ended up being hilarious -- they had all just gone home with their weapons in order to be ready for the inevitable civil war. An inevitable civil war that our generals and our Secretary of Defense and our President (or even the guy in charge, our Vice President) didn't seem to have anticipated for even a second.

"Yay, we won!" I kept hearing. "Man, we're farked" is what I was thinking.
2013-04-09 01:47:35 PM
4 votes:
20 years from now they'll admit that Iraq was a mistake, but we "would have won if we stayed in longer".

/much like what they say about Vietnam from time to time.
2013-04-09 01:46:46 PM
4 votes:

keiverarrow: Oh yeah, what did we win?


A pair of brand new legs!

3.bp.blogspot.com
2013-04-09 01:41:00 PM
4 votes:
Of COURSE we won. To admit otherwise is to acknowledge that we committed the most expensive and idiotic mistake in the history of the free world.
2013-04-09 01:27:26 PM
4 votes:
Pyrrhic Victory
2013-04-09 01:13:47 PM
4 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: GWB is a hero, get over it.


Had the post-invasion strategy been more pragmatic, and taken less of a black and white perspective toward the Baathist bureaucracy, the whole thing would have been over 8 years and six trillion dollars ago and you would be a lot closer to being correct.

However blind arrogance, a lack of appreciation for nuance and realpolitick, and generalized gross incompetence in the Bush administration made that a complete impossibility.
2013-04-09 01:09:11 PM
4 votes:
Oh, and checking the piece.... the guy saying it is the current head of the teetering Iraqi state, who has a vested interest in pretending the results are a stable and secure government, and that people think the results are an improvement.

How do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving....
2013-04-09 12:53:55 PM
4 votes:
To the winner goes the spoils six trillion dollar clean-up bill.
2013-04-09 12:02:43 PM
4 votes:
so... nation building was the reason for the war? not mushroom clouds and 9/11? well, why didn't bush say so?

and when are we going to liberate syria, north korea, zimbabwe, and west virginia?
2013-04-09 03:29:43 PM
3 votes:
Everybody who won the Iraq War, raise your hand.

i.imgur.com
2013-04-09 02:32:34 PM
3 votes:
The United States has not "lost" Iraq. Instead, in Iraq, the United States has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and democracy.

Which is, funnily enough, almost exactly the same relationship we had with Saddam when he came into power thirty some odd years ago.  I, for one, do not look forward to thirty years from now, when my son goes to fight a war in a land that's already soaked up the blood of two generations of my family.
2013-04-09 02:20:09 PM
3 votes:
Yeah, and you also totally won in Vietnam!

i.imgur.com
2013-04-09 02:13:33 PM
3 votes:
"The only way to win, is not to play."
2013-04-09 02:13:09 PM
3 votes:
We won the war handily.  The occupation has been a disaster.
2013-04-09 02:11:23 PM
3 votes:
I think a record of 0-0 would be preferable to any other war win-loss records.
2013-04-09 02:10:26 PM
3 votes:

Corvus: The US government didn't get the plunder, the US European oil corporations did.


Correction: British, Malaysia, China, French, Dutch, Russian and partly owned US Oil Corporations got the contracts.

Only Shell out of those is US:
Shell Oil Company is a 50/50 partner with the Saudi Arabian government-owned oil company Saudi Aramco in Motiva Enterprises, a refining and marketing joint venture which owns and operates three oil refineries on the Gulf Coast of the United States.

So, yeah, "we liberalized the Iraqi oil market, bringing it to the world marketplace... and effectively cutting out the Iraqis from their inherited natural resources".

But, we paid the cost of the war MUCH MORE than the governments of the companies that got those oil contracts.
We did the heavy lifting and then didn't get the spoils.

I recall before the Iraq war started it was said in front of Congress that the oil would pay for the war... how can that be if only ONE US company that is 50% Saudi owned got two of the smaller Iraqi oil field contracts?

We lost for us.
We won for worldwide oil.
2013-04-09 01:56:08 PM
3 votes:
When a US citizen can book a direct flight from New York to Baghdad on a major carrier, I'll start to believe Iraq is anything other than a barely contained quagmire.
2013-04-09 01:39:31 PM
3 votes:
We seized all of Saddam's massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons, caught Osama bin Laden hiding in Baghdad spooning with Saddam, U.S. troops were out in six weeks, and the war paid for itself.  Just like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz promised.

SUCK IT, LIBS.
2013-04-09 01:14:38 PM
3 votes:
From a military standpoint, if we DIDN'T win a war against Iraq, that would be pretty farking pathetic,
2013-04-09 07:34:25 PM
2 votes:
I am not a violent woman, by nature, but I really want to cockpunch the guy who wrote that article.
2013-04-09 07:19:14 PM
2 votes:
F*ck anyone who tries to justify that black mark on our history. F*ck 'em straight to hell.
2013-04-09 03:30:23 PM
2 votes:
So a baseball goes through a guy's window. He ignores the group of boys running away and instead knocks on his neighbor's door. He's had a strained relationship with his neighbor for years, and despite a lack of evidence, he knows his neighbor is behind the broken window. He demands that his neighbor hand over his son and all the sports equipment on the premises. The neighbor claims that he has neither a son nor sports equipment. The man proceeds to beat the neighbor to death and trashes his house in the process. He spends so much time over the next few years scouring the remains for the alleged son and sports equipment that he loses his job and his wife leaves him. Eventually he gives up his search and returns home for good. Then a street gang turns the blighted property next door into a meth lab.

With his lip quivering, the man whispers to himself, "Victory."
2013-04-09 03:02:46 PM
2 votes:
If by "winning" you mean throwing a few trillion dollars down the shiatter and killing anywhere from 300,000 to a million Iraqis et al, you would be still full of shiat, neocons.
2013-04-09 02:58:29 PM
2 votes:
As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.
2013-04-09 02:53:17 PM
2 votes:
www.pbs.org
It sure feels like victory doesn't it?

Or should we perhaps ask the mutated children of fallujah if they feel more free?
2013-04-09 02:45:36 PM
2 votes:
Pyrrhic victory at best.
2013-04-09 02:33:37 PM
2 votes:

NostroZ: We may not have WON... but we scared the shyat out of the rest of the world.
THIS
IS
SPARTA!


In the sense that the most expensive military in the world can get bogged down in it's own rules of engagement simply by mounting an underground guerrilla defense?  That is kinda scary when you think about it.
2013-04-09 02:31:03 PM
2 votes:
I guess this guy think that if your name came up in Shirley Jackson's The Lottery, you were also, by definition, a winner.
2013-04-09 02:16:22 PM
2 votes:

JerseyTim: I'd like to make a joke about how this sounds like it could have come from Baghdad Bob, but it turns out that farking guy was right.


As a 2012 CIA study concluded definitively, Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction. Nor did Iraq have 18 mobile laboratories for making anthrax and botulism, as Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed before the United Nations in February 2003, nor had Saddam Hussein recently tried to buy large quantities of uranium from Africa, as President Bush asserted in his 2003 State of the Union address. A decade of war was based on things that had never taken place.

No matter how many times I read that, or think about it, it still is depressing as fark.
2013-04-09 02:11:46 PM
2 votes:
Whether or not we "won" is merely a question of what the original goals were.  Did we attain our goals or not?

We went in to Iraq with the following conditions for victory:

1) Reason - Find and remove WMDs.  Donald Rumsefeld - "We know where they are."  "Those weapons will be found" - Tommy Franks.
2) Cost - Zero reconstruction cost, it will finance itself - Paul Wolfowitz.
3) Timeline - We will be done in weeks, not months - Dick Cheney.

So victory means we find and remove the WMDs, it costs us pretty much nothing and is only a few weeks.  Were we victorious?

Sure it cost a bit more and took a bit longer but everyone agrees, Iraq does not have WMDs.  So of course we were victorious.
2013-04-09 02:05:20 PM
2 votes:
0.tqn.com
2013-04-09 02:01:46 PM
2 votes:
Iraq may have won, the Prime Minister is certainly doing better than he would have had Saddam still been in power, but what, exactly, did we win?
2013-04-09 01:57:48 PM
2 votes:
When you're angry and/or scared, sometimes you say and/or do stupid shiat you regret later on. The Iraq war is a very good example of such stupid shiat.
2013-04-09 01:56:29 PM
2 votes:
Problem: Your mismanagement of the country from 2000 to 2008--exemplified in the public memory by your hubristic, fraudulent, and unbelievably costly invasion and occupation of Iraq--shattered public trust in your party and handed your opposition a simple and effective way to discredit your policies a full decade later.

Solution: Declare victory.
2013-04-09 01:55:31 PM
2 votes:

monoski: I have not seen a signature on the surrender document yet. Oh wait, that is because it will never end. See Korea and Vietnam DMZ's for examples.


www.lonelyplanet.com

I'm not seeing a DMZ. Perhaps you can point it out?
2013-04-09 01:46:58 PM
2 votes:
What percentage of their oil reserves do we control? How much plunder did the troops return with?
2013-04-09 01:09:35 PM
2 votes:
A recent headline:

20 killed, 54 wounded in suicide bombing in eastern Iraq Yeah, things have changed so much. The Iraqi government doesn't all hate us, so if that's the definition of victory, then we won. Why did we bother in the first place again? What threat did they pose to us apart from the one we found out was false? I would say that the Iraqi people probably hate us more than ever, since we utterly destroyed--and did not rebuild--their infrastructure.
2013-04-09 12:40:42 PM
2 votes:

netizencain: "Despite all the problems of the past decade, the overwhelming majority of Iraqis agree that we're better off today than under Hussein's brutal dictatorship.
Iraqis will remain grateful for the U.S. role and for the losses sustained by military and civilian personnel that contributed in ending Hussein's rule. These losses pale by comparison, of course, to those sustained by the Iraqi people."

For truth.


I wonder what the couple hundred thousand dead or displaced persons say to being better off than before.
2013-04-09 12:25:11 PM
2 votes:
By that logic, we should also preemptively invade Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea (this may happen), Venezuela, [insert rabble of African countries], and jam our freedom down their throats too!
2013-04-10 12:10:13 PM
1 votes:

goatleggedfellow: Everybody who won the Iraq War, raise your hand.


1.bp.blogspot.com

Halliburton Made $39.5 Billion on Iraq War Contracts
2013-04-10 07:16:42 AM
1 votes:
As a conservative, I never approved of invading Iraq and still don't. I don't care frankly that Iraqis are grateful, or that Saddam was a bastard. We don't send our soldiers to die in foreign adventures where our national security isn't threatened.

As much as I disapprove though, ppl tend to forget that it did have some side benefits and probably made war in Iran and NK less likely.

I just don't think I could explain adequately the benefits to parents and spouses of the dead.
2013-04-10 06:19:38 AM
1 votes:
I just wish that Bush had said that we were going to go in and topple an oppressive dicatator because he was practicing genocide on them instead of screaming WMD.  I at least would have respected him for his decison.  Instead I am once again disappointed that he pulled the same crap it seems LBJ pulled because he wanted to go into Vietnam.
2013-04-10 01:17:06 AM
1 votes:

goatleggedfellow: Everybody who won the Iraq War, raise your hand.

[i.imgur.com image 300x278]


i178.photobucket.com
i931.photobucket.com
2013-04-09 11:52:00 PM
1 votes:

Dude O Matic 5000: The world is a better place without Saddam, or his sons, in power.


Okay, so the end justifies the means? If the only goal was to oust Saddam and his (admittedly) psychopathic sons, wouldn't an extrajudicial assassination been cheaper and easier, not to mention more plausibly deniable?
2013-04-09 11:49:30 PM
1 votes:
Militarily? Yeah. We stomped the shiat out of the Iraqi Army and the Republican Guard.

Every other way? We lost. Horrifically. In more ways than just conflict.

Why did I waste a click reading this trash.
2013-04-09 11:02:31 PM
1 votes:

mrexcess: And thus, Fark headlines abandoned all pretense of not being straight-up audience trolling.


That was the Daily Caller's headline.
2013-04-09 11:01:36 PM
1 votes:

Muta: Mercutio74: Hmmmm... seemed to have slipped by the Bush administration, the mainstream media (including and especially Fox) and congress pretty easily.

I think a lot of people in the administration and Congress knew the most probable outcome.  They were marginalized and silences.  Of course, "we'll be greeted as liberators", yet no reason was given for why we would.    If you disagreed then you were out of a job.


Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
2013-04-09 10:44:20 PM
1 votes:
 Here I thought it was the biggest mistake ever, by the most evil president ever. At least that's what I've been told again and again by our moral, ethical, and intellectual betters on the left.

Christ, I can see his sneer and flashing eyes through the Internet.

What is it that makes these guys such stupid, giant assholes?

They'll take any "proof" that their side is correct, no matter how rediculous, and trumpet it.

"The guy who's in power due to our actions thinks they were a good idea!  SO IN YOUR FACE, LIBS!  WOOOOOO!"

Well, obviously, he would, you stupid, giant asshole.

Likewise, these guys take any mistake anyone on the left makes and scream it from the rooftops.  Or, sometimes they'll just make stuff up.

It's like the only thing that matters to them is putting down libs, and they're not even good at that.
2013-04-09 09:58:10 PM
1 votes:

MisterRonbo: Philip Francis Queeg: Muta: I can't think of a time when a foreign invader that was able to defeat a well armed guerilla force that has support of the local populous. What happened to the US in Iraq was very predictable.

Boer War. Philippine Insurrection. Malaya.

Northern Ireland.

Heck, the United States - the natives started with Metacom's war and never did manage to dislodge the invaders.


The invaders had the benefit of primitive biological and chemical warfare...

/Who needs missiles when you have blankets and bottles?
2013-04-09 09:08:20 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: Dude O Matic 5000: The world is a better place without Saddam, or his sons, in power.

Not our problem he was in power, or his sons. Never was. Mad?


No. Weak troll.
2013-04-09 08:10:53 PM
1 votes:
Well, it has been a while since we've seen a new justification for Bush's Crusade. I thought we'd stopped seeing them altogether.

Expect to see this one a lot more. The last one "well, we overthrew a dictator! Why do you love dictators so much?" stopped working.
2013-04-09 07:20:48 PM
1 votes:

Red Shirt Blues: ApeShaft: Yeah, and you also totally won in Vietnam!

[i.imgur.com image 600x387]

[bestuff.com image 210x118]
It was a tie


Came for this, leaving satisfied.
2013-04-09 07:13:03 PM
1 votes:

Dude O Matic 5000: The world is a better place without Saddam, or his sons, in power.


Not our problem he was in power, or his sons. Never was. Mad?
2013-04-09 06:23:34 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.

I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.


If we'd learned any lessons from US history, we wouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place.
2013-04-09 06:21:56 PM
1 votes:
Here I thought it was the biggest mistake ever, by the most evil president ever. At least that's what I've been told again and again by our moral, ethical, and intellectual betters on the left.

Stopped reading here. Nothing of value can come after this. Though my eyes did drift down to where the guy who wound up in charge of Iraq is very glad he wound up in charge of Iraq. Good to have an unbiased cross-section of the Iraqi people tell us that.

On the other hand, I do appreciate that he acknowledges that I am his moral, ethical, and intellectual superior.
2013-04-09 05:04:44 PM
1 votes:

Arkanaut: And Bush Sr. went in with a much bigger army than Bush Jr. did -- a quick check of Wikipedia shows that the 1991 coalition was nearly 1 million soldiers, while the 2003 invasion was done with 300K soldiers, only about half of whom stayed for the occupation.


Shock and Awe.

It only works if you don't also try to "win the hearts and minds" of the people you're at the same time trying to "shock and awe" into submission.
2013-04-09 04:02:47 PM
1 votes:

Aidan: I had just moved to the US in 1999. So I had been here for about 2 years (slightly less), and was infuriated that all I heard on the news was how there was no money for good education.

Then BAM. War time. Money appeared like a farking geyser in the desert. Now there's still no money for education.

So don't feel too depressed. The US would have NEVER spent that money on something useful.


Yup. We suffer to pay those awful unionized teachers way too much to educate our children for their own futures, but HEY LOOK SOME DOUCHEBAG ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET SAID HE HATES AMERICA SO LET'S ROLL OVER HIS COUNTRY FOR FREEDOM. SPARE NO EXPENSE!! WE WILL PREVAIL!!!
2013-04-09 03:58:33 PM
1 votes:

Dog Welder: Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009?


If you've ever watched PBS Newshour, they periodically show in silence, at the end of the broadcast, the names and faces of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's really sad. I'm so glad they still are doing that, because no one else in broadcast media does.
2013-04-09 03:45:25 PM
1 votes:

Wyalt Derp: If by "we" you mean "Halliburton etc" then yes, I guess 'we' did.


Up 300% in the last ten years of war
2013-04-09 03:31:48 PM
1 votes:
If Iraq (and presumably) Afghanistan are no longer threats, does that mean we can get rid of the TSA, now?
2013-04-09 03:30:37 PM
1 votes:
I could challenge a 3 year old to a cage match.  I would win, but it doesn't mean I should do it.
2013-04-09 03:29:52 PM
1 votes:
I hear that they have electricity for several hours per day in some parts of Iraq.  That is what they mean by win right?

  I think that all that voted to allow that "win" should be removed from office and jailed.
2013-04-09 03:13:28 PM
1 votes:
A few of them being grateful to us does not a winner make.
2013-04-09 03:10:56 PM
1 votes:

aaronx: I remember hearing that all the Iraqi soldiers kept 'melting away' (like the Wicked Witch of the West, I guess).

Turns out -- and this ended up being hilarious -- they had all just gone home with their weapons in order to be ready for the inevitable civil war. An inevitable civil war that our generals and our Secretary of Defense and our President (or even the guy in charge, our Vice President) didn't seem to have anticipated for even a second.


ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF Shinseki--a soldier who served two combat tours in Vietnam and lost half his foot to a landmine--told everyone it would require several hundred thousand troops to take and hold Iraq.

We sent 1.5 million military personnel into Iraq.

Our government knew EXACTLY what it was getting into and wanted the oil so bad, it was willing to throw away our soldiers lives and the lives of Iraqis.
2013-04-09 03:09:11 PM
1 votes:

A Dark Evil Omen: lennavan: SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.

I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.

Oh, I'm pretty sure there's some people who learned some pretty solid lessons from Iraq, "the government will be led by the nose to go to war and sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others for the purpose of pouring trillions of dollars of taxpayer money directly into rich peoples' pants, and even the people against it won't put up more than a token fight."



Those people already knew from previous administrations/wars that we'll be led around by fear, warmongering for the purpose of political gain.  It's not a far leap to oil/money.
2013-04-09 03:07:42 PM
1 votes:

A Dark Evil Omen: Oh, I'm pretty sure there's some people who learned some pretty solid lessons from Iraq, "the government will be led by the nose to go to war and sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others for the purpose of pouring trillions of dollars of taxpayer money directly into rich peoples' pants, and even the people against it won't put up more than a token fight.


To be fair, how do you fight a trillion dollars worth of political will?  How do you fight Colin Powell, a man previously identified by both the right and the left as being a man with high integrity, selling poorly forged bill of goods to the UN and the world?  How do you fight the post 9/11 hysteria of the US public?  That's a big order when you're outnumbered, outspent and you don't have fevered ideology on your side.
2013-04-09 03:05:10 PM
1 votes:
"We agree.  We DID win the war in Iraq!" -- Al Qaeda, Iran and China
2013-04-09 03:01:27 PM
1 votes:

Mercutio74: This war was never winnable in the sense that the US is stronger or safer coming out of it. And though it seems obvious in hindsight, actually displaying this to the world was a bad idea. Just as one example, do you think Iran fears the US army more or less than pre-Iraq occupation?


Not only that, but Iran now has a strong foothold in Iraq.

George Bush Senior knew that with Iraq you can conquer it within six days... occupying it is the quagmire.

Why don't we just bomb places and leave like we used to?
2013-04-09 03:00:40 PM
1 votes:

SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.


I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.
2013-04-09 03:00:29 PM
1 votes:
If by "we" you mean "Halliburton etc" then yes, I guess 'we' did.
2013-04-09 02:58:42 PM
1 votes:
The future I want for humanity is that one day all human beings can live as free men and women in countries which respect their human rights and have strong protections for civil liberties. From that perspective, I'm hard pressed to be anything but grateful when we as a species can topple yet one more dictator or oppressive/dysfunctional regime.

The details of HOW we got there are another story though. We should have FUNDED the farking war. We should have committed more manpower and resources up front so we could have handled the immediate aftermath better. We should have handled the nation-building phase better. We should have handled the new constitution post-WW2 Japanese style. We shoulda, we shoulda, we shoulda......

So many wasted opportunities. So much needless suffering and death because of our own leadership's failures to properly plan and lead. So much of it was because we foolishly believed we could wage a WAR and yet not sacrifice much. If you're not willing to pay you shouldn't be playing.
2013-04-09 02:51:18 PM
1 votes:

NostroZ: What do you mean?
Are you talking about the difficulty of distinguishing between a combatant and a civilian?
That based on current rules of engagement our military cannot punish collaborators?


All of those.

The problem with what the US set out to do in Iraq was not that the war was based on false pretenses (it was) nor that seemingly no thought was given to what would happen in the power vacuum that deposing a strong dictator creates.  It was that you cannot ever win a war easily unless you set off to wipe the offending country off the map.

Now, because this war was created to funnel money into the right pockets, you can't do that with destroying the nation you're invading.  That means you need very, very "good guy" rules of engagement (and rightfully so, these civilians didn't do anything to anyone and don't deserve to be part of the great Iraqi glass parking lot).

This war was never winnable in the sense that the US is stronger or safer coming out of it.  And though it seems obvious in hindsight, actually displaying this to the world was a bad idea.  Just as one example, do you think Iran fears the US army more or less than pre-Iraq occupation?
2013-04-09 02:49:53 PM
1 votes:
The problem with the Iraq war is that it lowered the line for military conflict to such a low level you could apply it to just about anywhere.
According to the Bush administrations own standards we should be invading and occupying North Korea right now.

It also might come to a shock to a lot of conservative war hawks in this country, but most Americans don't believe it's our financial responsibility
to fix every countries thousand year old tribal conflicts with our military.
2013-04-09 02:46:55 PM
1 votes:
That whole thing was George Bush's idea, wasn't it? And yet this guy is claiming it was the right thing to do? How can that be right?

I've never really heard anyone seriously suggest that freeing the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein's dictatorial rule wasn't the right thing to do. The issue is that toppling Saddam wasn't the reason for invading Iraq. It wasn't the reason the public was sold and it wasn't the real reason. It's the best positive spin that can be placed on the whole affair, so of course it's going to be emphasized. The fact that we should have done it ten years prior during the H.W. Bush years will not be emphasized.
2013-04-09 02:42:31 PM
1 votes:

abb3w: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: One more victory like that and we are surely lost.

Wandered by looking for Plutarch quoting Pyrrhus; thank you.


Well you know what they say.  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
2013-04-09 02:42:21 PM
1 votes:
A few more victories like that and the US will get to follow the Soviet Union into history.
2013-04-09 02:41:05 PM
1 votes:

macadamnut: The United States has not "lost" Iraq. Instead, in Iraq, the United States has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and democracy.

So there is honour among thieves after all...


That there is textbook newspeak, what you'd expect to hear from a puppet state.  Let's see if there's any difference:


www.opinion-maker.org

The Soviet Union has not "lost" Afghanistan. Instead, in Afghanistan , the Soviet Union has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and prosperity.

2013-04-09 02:40:14 PM
1 votes:

make me some tea: Dusk-You-n-Me: If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply. Link

Great. Now I'm even more depressed about this.


I had just moved to the US in 1999. So I had been here for about 2 years (slightly less), and was infuriated that all I heard on the news was how there was no money for good education.

Then BAM. War time. Money appeared like a farking geyser in the desert. Now there's still no money for education.

So don't feel too depressed. The US would have NEVER spent that money on something useful.
2013-04-09 02:22:45 PM
1 votes:
When does Judith Miller get her medal?
2013-04-09 02:22:36 PM
1 votes:
 I don't think i'll ever be over macho grande.
2013-04-09 02:20:02 PM
1 votes:
Well, I guess we won, in the same way a bear "wins" against a bear trap by chewing off it's own leg.
2013-04-09 02:11:08 PM
1 votes:
If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply. Link
2013-04-09 02:05:27 PM
1 votes:

keiverarrow: Oh yeah, what did we win?


Corvus: What exactly did we win?


You're missing the point. It's not WHAT we won - America has lots of stuff.

It's THAT we won.

// USA CRYING FREEDOM EAGLE REAGAN F-150 HOLD MAH BEER
2013-04-09 02:04:57 PM
1 votes:
I'd just like to remind everyone that no one who orchestrated the fake war in Iraq has been punished for doing so.
2013-04-09 02:03:31 PM
1 votes:
Winning!

Iraq War Drives Advances in Prosthetic Limbs

Byline: Mark Roth Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The horrors of war have often led to medical benefits in peacetime.

The Civil War spread the use of anesthesia. World War II helped to start the antibiotics revolution.

And now, the Iraq war and its deadly roadside bombs are advancing the development of prosthetics for those who have lost limbs. So far, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have left roughly 1,000 U.S. soldiers with amputations. The vast majority have lost feet and legs, but about 200 soldiers have lost fingers, hands and arms, said Ryan Blanck, upper-extremity specialist at the U.S. Armys Center for the Intrepid in San Antonio, a $65 million ...
2013-04-09 02:01:24 PM
1 votes:
Well, that's weird. That whole thing was George Bush's idea, wasn't it? And yet this guy is claiming it was the right thing to do? How can that be right?
Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009? But then, as the great lady once said: What difference does it make?


Ugh.  You're such a twat.  This is why you can't keep a girlfriend.
2013-04-09 02:00:41 PM
1 votes:
What were the victory conditions that were set out during the run up to war and at the start of the war?

Did we achieve those victory conditions?
2013-04-09 01:59:36 PM
1 votes:

GardenWeasel: Popcorn Johnny: GWB is a hero, get over it.

Now I'm certain you are just a troll.


It's not like I'm white knighting for Popcorn Johnny, but people on Fark as a whole have serious issues with sarcasm. Although he might be serious, who knows.
2013-04-09 01:57:22 PM
1 votes:
And by the way North Korea is acting, we're about to win the Indonesian war, too.
2013-04-09 01:52:44 PM
1 votes:
                                  i812.photobucket.com
2013-04-09 01:52:24 PM
1 votes:
Has the war paid for itself yet?
2013-04-09 01:52:22 PM
1 votes:

themindiswatching: 20 years from now they'll admit that Iraq was a mistake, but we "would have won if we stayed in longer".

/much like what they say about Vietnam from time to time.


You give them far too much credit.  20 years from now, the Republicans will insist that Iraq was all Clinton's idea from the very beginning, and the failure of Iraq falls squarely on the shoulders of the Democrats and Barak "Shaq and Mohammed" Fartbongo.
2013-04-09 01:45:11 PM
1 votes:
Reagan won it right?
2013-04-09 01:38:53 PM
1 votes:
I'm not sure you can honestly say we won or lost that war.  It just happened.  We knocked down the regime, if that's the criteria for victory, what were we sticking around for a decade for?
2013-04-09 01:32:24 PM
1 votes:

vartian: Well, that's weird. That whole thing was George Bush's idea, wasn't it? And yet this guy is claiming it was the right thing to do? How can that be right?

Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009? But then, as the great lady once said: What difference does it make?

We're seriously having a conversation about an opinion piece in the Daily Caller - like it matters?


I didn't click, so I don't know who the author is, but I imagine Tucker Carlson saying this, with his stupid smug face and little bow-tie, and it brings about unhealthy emotions.
2013-04-09 01:04:23 PM
1 votes:

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: One more victory like that and we are surely lost.


Wandered by looking for Plutarch quoting Pyrrhus; thank you.
2013-04-09 12:51:37 PM
1 votes:
I can't wait for the tenth anniversary of this:

upload.wikimedia.org
2013-04-09 12:51:21 PM
1 votes:
Sure doesn't feel like it.
2013-04-09 12:34:54 PM
1 votes:

James!: make me some tea: By that logic, we should also preemptively invade Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea (this may happen), Venezuela, [insert rabble of African countries], and jam our freedom down their throats too!

If I told you that over a decade from now the governments we installed in those countries would thank us wouldn't it be totally worth the expense and loss of life?

"LET'S ROLL!"


You mean the corrupt, oppressive governments we installed? F*CK YEAH MERICA
2013-04-09 12:28:19 PM
1 votes:

make me some tea: By that logic, we should also preemptively invade Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea (this may happen), Venezuela, [insert rabble of African countries], and jam our freedom down their throats too!


If I told you that over a decade from now the governments we installed in those countries would thank us wouldn't it be totally worth the expense and loss of life?

"LET'S ROLL!"
2013-04-09 12:23:31 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: so... nation building was the reason for the war? not mushroom clouds and 9/11? well, why didn't bush say so?

and when are we going to liberate syria, north korea, zimbabwe, and west virginia?


And Cuba.
2013-04-09 12:22:12 PM
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: GWB is a hero, get over it.


And has never made a mistake, and if you don't believe that, just ask him. Or Darth Cheney.
2013-04-09 12:13:27 PM
1 votes:
Wait, we were at war? When did this happen?
2013-04-09 12:04:37 PM
1 votes:
I thought we were supposed to get some yellow cake after or something.

cache.boston.com
2013-04-09 12:01:30 PM
1 votes:
Yep.  We won.  Us, and Iran.
 
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