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(The Daily Caller)   By the way, we won the Iraq war   (dailycaller.com) divider line 298
    More: Hero, Iraq, Maliki, Prime Minister of Iraq  
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7377 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Apr 2013 at 1:42 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-09 02:22:45 PM
When does Judith Miller get her medal?
 
2013-04-09 02:24:05 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-09 02:24:54 PM

Corvus: Lost Thought 00: What percentage of their oil reserves do we control? How much plunder did the troops return with?

[www.aljazeera.com image 680x450]

Western oil firms remain as US exits Iraq

The US government didn't get the plunder, the US oil corporations did.


We should slap a lien on their profits.
 
2013-04-09 02:25:49 PM

Brian Ryanberger: When does Judith Miller get her medal?


Anchor around her neck in the middle of the ocean count?  I'd gladly bestow that honor upon her.
 
2013-04-09 02:26:13 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply. Link


Great. Now I'm even more depressed about this.
 
2013-04-09 02:27:30 PM

Car_Ramrod: JerseyTim: I'd like to make a joke about how this sounds like it could have come from Baghdad Bob, but it turns out that farking guy was right.

As a 2012 CIA study concluded definitively, Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction. Nor did Iraq have 18 mobile laboratories for making anthrax and botulism, as Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed before the United Nations in February 2003, nor had Saddam Hussein recently tried to buy large quantities of uranium from Africa, as President Bush asserted in his 2003 State of the Union address. A decade of war was based on things that had never taken place.

No matter how many times I read that, or think about it, it still is depressing as fark.


Yup.  Depressing... but... we're good at it and without practice how would we sharpen our skills?
Where would our military corporation be testing their weapons?
Where would the intelligence community learn what works and does not?
Where would we get the large amount of disabled veterans that need advanced prosthetic limbs?

War is depressing... but we're good at it.
We now have much better technology than other countries and can use it or sell it.
 
2013-04-09 02:28:19 PM
Isn't it odd how everybody stopped keeping a death toll of Americans killed overseas after January 20, 2009?

Nobody remembers that because it didn't happen.  More selective memory by Republican shills.

Nobody is doubting that we "won" in Iraq.  What people are looking at are what did we win?

--An "ally" that might be increasingly unstable and less reliable as time goes on.
--Trillions of dollars piled onto our national debt.
--Higher gas prices.
--And, most importantly, thousands of dead military personnel with thousands and thousands more permanently disfigured (which we will be continuing to pay for for decades -- so billions of dollars more piled onto the nation debt).
--Egg on our faces when we didn't find these massive stockpiles of WMDs coupled with international anger for pursuing this war in the first place.

Saddam Hussein and his evil minions and sons are all gone.  This is a good thing.  Hooray us.  We won.  But the cost may not have been worth it.  THAT is the point people have been trying to make.
 
2013-04-09 02:31:03 PM
I guess this guy think that if your name came up in Shirley Jackson's The Lottery, you were also, by definition, a winner.
 
2013-04-09 02:31:06 PM
So you Republicans don't mind raising taxes to pay for it, right?

[crickets]
 
2013-04-09 02:31:41 PM
Oh did we now?
 
2013-04-09 02:31:49 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
We may not have WON... but we scared the shyat out of the rest of the world.
THIS
IS
SPARTA!
 
2013-04-09 02:32:34 PM
The United States has not "lost" Iraq. Instead, in Iraq, the United States has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and democracy.

Which is, funnily enough, almost exactly the same relationship we had with Saddam when he came into power thirty some odd years ago.  I, for one, do not look forward to thirty years from now, when my son goes to fight a war in a land that's already soaked up the blood of two generations of my family.
 
2013-04-09 02:33:37 PM

NostroZ: We may not have WON... but we scared the shyat out of the rest of the world.
THIS
IS
SPARTA!


In the sense that the most expensive military in the world can get bogged down in it's own rules of engagement simply by mounting an underground guerrilla defense?  That is kinda scary when you think about it.
 
2013-04-09 02:35:27 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply. Link


Wind and solar replace domestic coal and domestic natural gas.  Oil is basically not used for power generation in the continental United States.

Now, I agree that the money spent on the war in Iraq was flushed down the drain, but you could have used it for health care or infrastructure repairs or even lower taxes.
 
2013-04-09 02:38:23 PM

Mercutio74: NostroZ: We may not have WON... but we scared the shyat out of the rest of the world.
THIS
IS
SPARTA!

In the sense that the most expensive military in the world can get bogged down in it's own rules of engagement simply by mounting an underground guerrilla defense?  That is kinda scary when you think about it.


What do you mean?
Are you talking about the difficulty of distinguishing between a combatant and a civilian?
That based on current rules of engagement our military cannot punish collaborators?
 
2013-04-09 02:39:20 PM
I give absolutely no farks at all what this guy thinks, it still wasn't worth it.  Removing Saddam wasn't worth one American life.
 
2013-04-09 02:39:49 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: From a military standpoint, if we DIDN'T win a war against Iraq, that would be pretty farking pathetic,


True.  The military won the war in Iraq.  It was the politicians like Pelosi, Reid and Obama who lost the peace.
 
2013-04-09 02:40:14 PM

make me some tea: Dusk-You-n-Me: If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply. Link

Great. Now I'm even more depressed about this.


I had just moved to the US in 1999. So I had been here for about 2 years (slightly less), and was infuriated that all I heard on the news was how there was no money for good education.

Then BAM. War time. Money appeared like a farking geyser in the desert. Now there's still no money for education.

So don't feel too depressed. The US would have NEVER spent that money on something useful.
 
2013-04-09 02:41:05 PM

macadamnut: The United States has not "lost" Iraq. Instead, in Iraq, the United States has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and democracy.

So there is honour among thieves after all...


That there is textbook newspeak, what you'd expect to hear from a puppet state.  Let's see if there's any difference:


www.opinion-maker.org

The Soviet Union has not "lost" Afghanistan. Instead, in Afghanistan , the Soviet Union has found a partner for our shared strategic concerns and our common efforts on energy, economics and the promotion of peace and prosperity.

 
2013-04-09 02:41:06 PM
By the way, Subby, we lost 4,486 KIA. Well, we know where most of them are.

www.arlingtoncemetery.net

Now, Subby, if you want to talk about wounded...amputees, PTSD, brain damage...you can look up the numbers. They're frightening.

Oh, and here's some truly frightening statistics. The BBC reported April 17, 2009, "According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed."

And here's a pic of the one building the Coalition protected when we entered Baghdad.

1.bp.blogspot.com

The Ministry of Oil building.

Those volunteers you see standing around? Many of them volunteered to go to Afghanistan and kill Al Qaeda

Victory for a few. Death, wounds, mental illness, rape and lots of other stuff for many.
 
2013-04-09 02:41:49 PM
I wonder if Jon Stewart loads up The Daily Caller and questions his decision to kill Crossfire.
 
2013-04-09 02:42:21 PM
A few more victories like that and the US will get to follow the Soviet Union into history.
 
2013-04-09 02:42:31 PM

abb3w: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: One more victory like that and we are surely lost.

Wandered by looking for Plutarch quoting Pyrrhus; thank you.


Well you know what they say.  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
2013-04-09 02:44:54 PM

Mercutio74: In the sense that the most expensive military in the world can get bogged down in it's own rules of engagement simply by mounting an underground guerrilla defense?


No, I think he means "we will invade your country to enrich our elites if we feel like it, endanger our own economy and lie to our own people to get it accomplished" kind of thing coming from the most overpowered military on the planet.
 
2013-04-09 02:45:30 PM

Diogenes: By Treacher - one of the worst and most shameless of their contributors.

He doesn't care about any issue. He just likes to rile liberals. So I'm with you -- if you know that's his only goal, anything resembling an actual opinion or argument can be safely (and wisely) disregarded.


This.  I have had multiple engagements with Treacher on blogs and on Facebook.  The last time ended with him spamming "OBAMA ATE DOG!" about 100 times.  Since I stopped engaging after that he "won".
 
2013-04-09 02:45:36 PM
Pyrrhic victory at best.
 
2013-04-09 02:45:45 PM
Someone should write a  gravelly folk song heralding the benefits of war.

/Got absolutely nothing.
 
2013-04-09 02:46:55 PM
That whole thing was George Bush's idea, wasn't it? And yet this guy is claiming it was the right thing to do? How can that be right?

I've never really heard anyone seriously suggest that freeing the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein's dictatorial rule wasn't the right thing to do. The issue is that toppling Saddam wasn't the reason for invading Iraq. It wasn't the reason the public was sold and it wasn't the real reason. It's the best positive spin that can be placed on the whole affair, so of course it's going to be emphasized. The fact that we should have done it ten years prior during the H.W. Bush years will not be emphasized.
 
2013-04-09 02:48:31 PM

regindyn: I wonder if Jon Stewart loads up The Daily Caller and questions his decision to kill Crossfire.


I think relegating Tucker to a substandard Breitbart clone is less influential than being on  what was (at the time) a highly influential cable channel.
 
2013-04-09 02:49:53 PM
The problem with the Iraq war is that it lowered the line for military conflict to such a low level you could apply it to just about anywhere.
According to the Bush administrations own standards we should be invading and occupying North Korea right now.

It also might come to a shock to a lot of conservative war hawks in this country, but most Americans don't believe it's our financial responsibility
to fix every countries thousand year old tribal conflicts with our military.
 
2013-04-09 02:51:18 PM

NostroZ: What do you mean?
Are you talking about the difficulty of distinguishing between a combatant and a civilian?
That based on current rules of engagement our military cannot punish collaborators?


All of those.

The problem with what the US set out to do in Iraq was not that the war was based on false pretenses (it was) nor that seemingly no thought was given to what would happen in the power vacuum that deposing a strong dictator creates.  It was that you cannot ever win a war easily unless you set off to wipe the offending country off the map.

Now, because this war was created to funnel money into the right pockets, you can't do that with destroying the nation you're invading.  That means you need very, very "good guy" rules of engagement (and rightfully so, these civilians didn't do anything to anyone and don't deserve to be part of the great Iraqi glass parking lot).

This war was never winnable in the sense that the US is stronger or safer coming out of it.  And though it seems obvious in hindsight, actually displaying this to the world was a bad idea.  Just as one example, do you think Iran fears the US army more or less than pre-Iraq occupation?
 
2013-04-09 02:53:17 PM
www.pbs.org
It sure feels like victory doesn't it?

Or should we perhaps ask the mutated children of fallujah if they feel more free?
 
2013-04-09 02:55:17 PM

Mercutio74: In the sense that the most expensive military in the world can get bogged down in it's own rules of engagement simply by mounting an underground

guerilla defense? That is kinda scary when you think about it.

I can't think of a time when a foreign invader that was able to defeat a well armed guerilla force that has support of the local populous.  What happened to the US in Iraq was very predictable.
 
2013-04-09 02:55:17 PM

asmodeus224: Yea, remember on 9-12-01 when Bush said we need to invade Iraq to free those wonderful brown people? YEa, neither do i


He was thinking about it a long time before 9/11

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm
 
2013-04-09 02:58:29 PM
As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.
 
2013-04-09 02:58:42 PM
The future I want for humanity is that one day all human beings can live as free men and women in countries which respect their human rights and have strong protections for civil liberties. From that perspective, I'm hard pressed to be anything but grateful when we as a species can topple yet one more dictator or oppressive/dysfunctional regime.

The details of HOW we got there are another story though. We should have FUNDED the farking war. We should have committed more manpower and resources up front so we could have handled the immediate aftermath better. We should have handled the nation-building phase better. We should have handled the new constitution post-WW2 Japanese style. We shoulda, we shoulda, we shoulda......

So many wasted opportunities. So much needless suffering and death because of our own leadership's failures to properly plan and lead. So much of it was because we foolishly believed we could wage a WAR and yet not sacrifice much. If you're not willing to pay you shouldn't be playing.
 
2013-04-09 03:00:07 PM
Whew. That was a close one.

Good thing we got Saddam before I had to use the duck tape and plastic on the windows to keep out the chemical weapons.

We bombed Baghdad without provocation and killed hundreds of innocent men, women, and children.

We showed the world that we're willing to destroy anyone weaker than us if they have something we want.

Victory!
 
2013-04-09 03:00:29 PM
If by "we" you mean "Halliburton etc" then yes, I guess 'we' did.
 
2013-04-09 03:00:40 PM

SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.


I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.
 
2013-04-09 03:01:09 PM

Wyalt Derp: If by "we" you mean "Halliburton etc" then yes, I guess 'we' did.


When big corporations win, we win. Know your place and serve your betters.
 
2013-04-09 03:01:27 PM

Mercutio74: This war was never winnable in the sense that the US is stronger or safer coming out of it. And though it seems obvious in hindsight, actually displaying this to the world was a bad idea. Just as one example, do you think Iran fears the US army more or less than pre-Iraq occupation?


Not only that, but Iran now has a strong foothold in Iraq.

George Bush Senior knew that with Iraq you can conquer it within six days... occupying it is the quagmire.

Why don't we just bomb places and leave like we used to?
 
2013-04-09 03:01:41 PM

geek_mars: I've never really heard anyone seriously suggest that freeing the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein's dictatorial rule wasn't the right thing to do


The Sunni dictator has been replaced with a shiate dictator and the Kurdish separatists are up north running wild.

What an improvement!
 
2013-04-09 03:01:48 PM

Muta: I can't think of a time when a foreign invader that was able to defeat a well armed guerilla force that has support of the local populous. What happened to the US in Iraq was very predictable.


Hmmmm... seemed to have slipped by the Bush administration, the mainstream media (including and especially Fox) and congress pretty easily.

But that's the thing.  Anyone who knew history on even a basic level knew that occupying a foreign nation filled with potential militants is a really bad idea.  But after Iraq, even the people who didn't know history learned that.
 
2013-04-09 03:02:46 PM
If by "winning" you mean throwing a few trillion dollars down the shiatter and killing anywhere from 300,000 to a million Iraqis et al, you would be still full of shiat, neocons.
 
2013-04-09 03:02:53 PM

lennavan: SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.

I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.


Oh, I'm pretty sure there's some people who learned some pretty solid lessons from Iraq, "the government will be led by the nose to go to war and sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others for the purpose of pouring trillions of dollars of taxpayer money directly into rich peoples' pants, and even the people against it won't put up more than a token fight."
 
2013-04-09 03:05:10 PM
"We agree.  We DID win the war in Iraq!" -- Al Qaeda, Iran and China
 
2013-04-09 03:06:14 PM

Muta: I can't think of a time when a foreign invader that was able to defeat a well armed guerilla force that has support of the local populous. What happened to the US in Iraq was very predictable.


Boer War. Philippine Insurrection. Malaya.
 
2013-04-09 03:07:42 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Oh, I'm pretty sure there's some people who learned some pretty solid lessons from Iraq, "the government will be led by the nose to go to war and sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others for the purpose of pouring trillions of dollars of taxpayer money directly into rich peoples' pants, and even the people against it won't put up more than a token fight.


To be fair, how do you fight a trillion dollars worth of political will?  How do you fight Colin Powell, a man previously identified by both the right and the left as being a man with high integrity, selling poorly forged bill of goods to the UN and the world?  How do you fight the post 9/11 hysteria of the US public?  That's a big order when you're outnumbered, outspent and you don't have fevered ideology on your side.
 
2013-04-09 03:08:05 PM

Mercutio74: Hmmmm... seemed to have slipped by the Bush administration, the mainstream media (including and especially Fox) and congress pretty easily.


I think a lot of people in the administration and Congress knew the most probable outcome.  They were marginalized and silences.  Of course, "we'll be greeted as liberators", yet no reason was given for why we would.    If you disagreed then you were out of a job.
 
2013-04-09 03:09:11 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: lennavan: SkeletorUpInHere: As a somewhat right leaning person, I don't understand why anyone says we won/lost.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WINNING IN GUERRILLA WARFARE

Once we got there, there was no going back. You carry it out, whether it takes 2 weeks or 20 years. Politics are out the window. You can't pull out because you'll look weak as a nation. Take it on the chin. Tough learned lesson.

I cannot possibly imagine any person with even just a passing familiarity with US history thinks we actually learned any lessons here whatsoever.

Oh, I'm pretty sure there's some people who learned some pretty solid lessons from Iraq, "the government will be led by the nose to go to war and sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others for the purpose of pouring trillions of dollars of taxpayer money directly into rich peoples' pants, and even the people against it won't put up more than a token fight."



Those people already knew from previous administrations/wars that we'll be led around by fear, warmongering for the purpose of political gain.  It's not a far leap to oil/money.
 
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