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(The New York Times)   This week in Sentences No One Has Said Before: "America is suffering a serious lack of lawyers"   (nytimes.com) divider line 106
    More: Interesting, practice of laws, LexisNexis, oversupply, Rapid City, ABA, practical skills  
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4588 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Apr 2013 at 10:23 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-09 10:25:33 AM  
Ummm no.... no we're not
 
2013-04-09 10:26:07 AM  
Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.
 
2013-04-09 10:26:11 AM  
Good.

/And no, we're not
 
2013-04-09 10:26:17 AM  
If we reach a critical mass of lawyers do all the court houses implode?
 
2013-04-09 10:26:22 AM  
www.reactionface.info
 
2013-04-09 10:26:48 AM  
It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).
 
2013-04-09 10:27:10 AM  
 America is suffering a serious lack of lawyers....


Hmmmm....maybe they meant: America is suffering a lack of serious lawyers?
 
2013-04-09 10:28:07 AM  
Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?
 
2013-04-09 10:29:11 AM  
Coming this Fall: Michael J. Fox is "Counselor Hollywood." A smug, highbrow securities litigator gets in a fender-bender in rural Arkansas and is sentenced to spend two weeks providing legal advice to the humble townsfolk, while simultaneously winning the heart of an innocent paralegal. The film climaxes when Fox files a mass tort class action against Dow Chemical on behalf of all the villagers.
 
2013-04-09 10:29:49 AM  

Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).


Rural America = Real America. cities = foreign countries. There are two cultures in this country these days.
 
2013-04-09 10:29:58 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?


That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.
 
2013-04-09 10:30:19 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com
"Can you imagine a world without lawyers?"
 
2013-04-09 10:32:28 AM  
Speaking as someone that used to be an attorney in a rural town (population 3000), you can't make a living there.  Even if I defended every meth-head in the county, every DUI, and not to mention divorce, I could not make a decent living there.  Most of the people couldn't afford to pay and those that could, most times didn't.  Plus, I had "clients" calling me and my parents in the middle of the night or showing up at my house to ask legal questions.  This is not counting the times that I was ordered to take a public case, because I was handy.  In the three years that I was an attorney in that rural town, I never made more than 22K per year.
 
2013-04-09 10:33:29 AM  
Interesting. I'll forward this article to all my friends working as baristas, or temps, or some other shiat job, trying to pay down their law school debt because absolutely nobody will hire them as a freakin lawyer. All they need to do is move to rural South Dakota, then they'll be raking in the cash!
 
2013-04-09 10:33:47 AM  
Rural areas don't have sufficient populations to support professionals. They are underserved by doctors as well.

In the legal world, rural county courts are known for being oppressively insular, many times each county has its own rules, and "city" lawyers are despised.

I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia and i am looked at like an alien in my home county courthouse, which is 10 miles and three turns from house. About the only way i get an even shot there is by using my home address on my filings.
 
2013-04-09 10:33:53 AM  

Contribution Corsair: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?

That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


But without the legalese, how will our financial betters screw us on everything?!
 
2013-04-09 10:38:03 AM  

Contribution Corsair: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?

That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


Up until I was practicing law at age 29, I didn't need a lawyer or a legal education to do anything. Hell, my law degree was practically a hinderence when I bought my house since I overthought the shiat out of the documents. My parents used an attorney once in their mutual lives (eldest is now 65) to draft a will to make sure my brother and I ended up with a specific aunt and uncle - their multiple moves and career changes didn't necessitate my profession's services.

If you "need an attorney to do anything," you're either overly litigious or are doing things well outside the bounds of the law.
 
2013-04-09 10:38:23 AM  
Maybe it's an anagram.   "America is wearily suffering a freak colossus."
 
2013-04-09 10:42:13 AM  

Contribution Corsair: That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


Legalese my ass.  In general, the real issue is not impenetrable jargon, as most of that has been excised from the law since the middle of the last century, but the fact that most people just don't read things.* Most Licenses are written pretty plainly, but the trick is that that doesnt matter when most people dont look at them.

/* does not apply to patents or statutes
 
2013-04-09 10:42:49 AM  

Jim.Casy: Interesting. I'll forward this article to all my friends working as baristas, or temps, or some other shiat job, trying to pay down their law school debt because absolutely nobody will hire them as a freakin lawyer. All they need to do is move to rural South Dakota, then they'll be raking in the cashia


tell them to brush up on their "livestock sodomy" laws, and they're golden!
 
2013-04-09 10:43:19 AM  

Snarfangel: Maybe it's an anagram.   "America is wearily suffering a freak colossus."


timebusinessblog.files.wordpress.com
I call him Litigizilla
 
2013-04-09 10:44:37 AM  

Teiritzamna: Legalese my ass.


rlv.zcache.com
 
2013-04-09 10:44:50 AM  

Solon Isonomia: Contribution Corsair: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?

That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.

Up until I was practicing law at age 29, I didn't need a lawyer or a legal education to do anything. Hell, my law degree was practically a hinderence when I bought my house since I overthought the shiat out of the documents.


At least you weren't hung up on spelling.
 
2013-04-09 10:47:13 AM  

sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.


I see you've never spent much time in rural areas. If you think a successful farmer, who manages 5,000 acres and spends $3M/yr to earn $250K is ignorant, you don't know much about agriculture.
 
2013-04-09 10:48:12 AM  

Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).


Lawsuits aren't filed in rural areas. They tend to get shopped to venues in the major cities, which more frequently have sympathetic judges or juries, or award larger awards. Amazingly, that's where the lawyers are.
 
2013-04-09 10:49:00 AM  

sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.


Because no one wants to live in big cities anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these filthy big cities. Not to mention the noise, pollution and universal lack of intelligent citizens.

/live in a big city
//still think you're an ignorant turd
///I bet you live in the northeast
 
2013-04-09 10:49:05 AM  

wozzeck: I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia and i am looked at like an alien in my home county courthouse, which is 10 miles and three turns from house. About the only way i get an even shot there is by using my home address on my filings.


It's not like Montgomery county is excessively rural either. The southern parts are highly developed and even the more rural northern parts aren't BFE by any measure.
 
2013-04-09 10:50:13 AM  

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Ummm no.... no we're not


In the medium-sized and big cities, that's true.  In places like the one mentioned in the article, yeah...yeah they are.
 
2013-04-09 10:50:36 AM  

wozzeck: I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia


Your profile says you live in Philadelphia.
 
2013-04-09 10:50:54 AM  
Solon Isonomia:

If you "need an attorney to do anything," you're either overly litigious or are doing things well outside the bounds of the law.

You assume sociopaths don't care about right and wrong. That's not true. We just don't understand all your farking rules. Or pretty much any of them, to narrow that down a bit. So we have lawyers help us. True, the law isn't exactly about right and wrong, but it's the only guide some of us have. You don't want us running around doing whatever we want, do you?
 
2013-04-09 10:52:22 AM  

JackieRabbit: I see you've never spent much time in rural areas. If you think a successful farmer, who manages 5,000 acres and spends $3M/yr to earn $250K is ignorant, you don't know much about agriculture.


I hope you mean $250k profit, because otherwise the math sucks and they really are ignorant.

/ 8.3% profit isn't half bad though.
 
2013-04-09 10:53:01 AM  

Contribution Corsair: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?

That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


Fun stuff - lots of states use "plain language" requirements in court documents.
 
2013-04-09 10:53:36 AM  

Hagbardr: wozzeck: I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia and i am looked at like an alien in my home county courthouse, which is 10 miles and three turns from house. About the only way i get an even shot there is by using my home address on my filings.

It's not like Montgomery county is excessively rural either. The southern parts are highly developed and even the more rural northern parts aren't BFE by any measure.


I'm assuming he's a plaintiff's attorney. Court filings in PA look like two spider bites centered on Philadelphia and Allegheny counties. Those areas are hugely red; swollen with filings. The surrounding counties are bereft of filings, because their juries are defense-friendly.

If he's in Bucks or Montgomery, he probably is seen as an alien. His kind is unusual and unwelcome in those jurisdictions.
 
2013-04-09 10:54:03 AM  

This text is now purple: wozzeck: I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia

Your profile says you live in Philadelphia.


Elkins Park is in Montgomery county. I used to live in East Oak Lane (Philadelphia) and would walk to Melrose Park (Montgomery) to board the train.
 
2013-04-09 11:02:35 AM  

Contribution Corsair: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?

That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


Sorry, had to FTFM. But maybe if more people were taught reading COMPREHENSION....

/I know, I know, my lawn.
 
2013-04-09 11:04:31 AM  
Its a case of 3 mutually supporting problems. By the time a person pays for their degree and law school in most cases they have fairly serious debts which need moderately high pay to service in a timely manner. Many or most laywers specialize in a few fairly narrow and related areas of law partially because they like those areas partially for pay purposes. Not saying my personal injury laywer can't make a good tough to challenge will or living trust but he isn't automatic at it. Now ask him about a property contract and he is taking more time. That's part of why they have firms. In a county of 10,000 people there is enough work really to support about 4 lawyers and 6 paralegals. (Oh and a county prosecutor as well the others will pick up rotations as public defenders in their duties as officers of the court) You will also have a county judge who is most likely one of those 4 but may also be a 5th who is semi retired) Thing is each of those is going to have to do divorces deeds notary wills civil and criminal, feel competant enough in all those areas to not really seek help regularly.

Most people with serious legal issues and money will still want to hire a specialist however you could often get co council and consulting out of that as well as use of your office and paralegal. Its a lot of work with moderate risk to be financially worse off than you would be doing 0 risk corperate consulting.

That's not how you get ahead and you will be told that in proffesional publications and education. At that point it becomes a labour of dedication and love of the art/proffesion/community like a family pracitioner in medicine. Since we have all met the american laywer guess how common that is? Mr. Smith doesn't go to washington does he?
 
2013-04-09 11:06:41 AM  
The demand for legal services in America is at an all-time high, and yet employment for lawyers is at an all-time low. These statements are both true, even though they seem mutually exclusive. The reason for this is pretty much what other people in the thread said, that this kind of work is incredibly low-paying, and with the skyrocketing cost of law school, the "small-town" lawyer is a dying breed. People simply cannot afford to go out to live in rural Arkansas to deal with the legal claims of a few thousand people who can pay a pittance for their work.

I hate saying this, but a lot of the reasons that there's this kind of demand is due to the Republicans systematically destroying the government-funded Legal Services Corporations that sprang up in the late 1950s and 1960s. They were too effective in lobbying against businesses and protecting consumers and the civil rights, and so bit by bit their funding was slashed, they had their mandates changed (it's now illegal for a government-funded Legal Services organization to engage in any form of advocacy), and they were categorically banned from working for certain clients (for instance, undocumented immigrants). This led to far fewer jobs, and far more people getting screwed by the legal system.

The same thing has happened to public defenders. There is a  massive need for extra lawyers who are willing to do public defense work, but the jobs simply do not exist because the government refuses to fund the public defenders' offices. Well-funded and properly staffed PD offices are extremely rare.

So no, the headline is wrong, America is not suffering from a serious lack of  lawyers, but America is suffering from a serious lack of  legal services.
 
2013-04-09 11:08:07 AM  
I'm not surprised that new lawyers are avoiding rural areas. Grads from law schools often have $100k+ in debt. They look at an area that won't generate nearly enough money to pay that off and pass on it. Add to it that the schools aren't as good as suburban schools for their eventual families. On top of that, they just spent 3 years in grad school on a campus that was likely urban, spending their time on univsersity-town entertainment. Who wants to move to an unfamiliar area, hours away from their friends and preferred lifestyle, while saddled with huge debts? I found in school that the people who most wanted to go to rural/small town areas were people originally from those areas.

I suppose you could say the same of doctors, though, and they still flock to these programs. Maybe it's the fact that people actually respect doctors.
 
2013-04-09 11:08:40 AM  

Uzzah: Coming this Fall: Michael J. Fox is "Counselor Hollywood." A smug, highbrow securities litigator gets in a fender-bender in rural Arkansas and is sentenced to spend two weeks providing legal advice to the humble townsfolk, while simultaneously winning the heart of an innocent paralegal. The film climaxes when Fox files a mass tort class action against Dow Chemical on behalf of all the villagers.


Here's the plan... you and I get  a time machine, go back to the late 1980s, kill the guys who came up with Northern Exposure and we take their place.
 
2013-04-09 11:11:42 AM  
I am a lawyer so I'm getting a kick blah blah blah.

Rincewind53: The demand for legal services in America is at an all-time high, and yet employment for lawyers is at an all-time low. These statements are both true, even though they seem mutually exclusive. The reason for this is pretty much what other people in the thread said, that this kind of work is incredibly low-paying, and with the skyrocketing cost of law school, the "small-town" lawyer is a dying breed. People simply cannot afford to go out to live in rural Arkansas to deal with the legal claims of a few thousand people who can pay a pittance for their work.

I hate saying this, but a lot of the reasons that there's this kind of demand is due to the Republicans systematically destroying the government-funded Legal Services Corporations that sprang up in the late 1950s and 1960s. They were too effective in lobbying against businesses and protecting consumers and the civil rights, and so bit by bit their funding was slashed, they had their mandates changed (it's now illegal for a government-funded Legal Services organization to engage in any form of advocacy), and they were categorically banned from working for certain clients (for instance, undocumented immigrants). This led to far fewer jobs, and far more people getting screwed by the legal system.

The same thing has happened to public defenders. There is a  massive need for extra lawyers who are willing to do public defense work, but the jobs simply do not exist because the government refuses to fund the public defenders' offices. Well-funded and properly staffed PD offices are extremely rare.

So no, the headline is wrong, America is not suffering from a serious lack of  lawyers, but America is suffering from a serious lack of  legal services.


A valid point, to be sure, yet it's not just a problem in rural areas. I work in a massive metropolis and finding clients who are (1) able to pay and (2) willing to pay is an ongoing struggle.  We do alright, though, much better than if we were in the countryside.
 
2013-04-09 11:12:48 AM  

Rincewind53: So no, the headline is wrong, America is not suffering from a serious lack of lawyers, but America is suffering from a serious lack of legal services.


I don't like the sound of that...

If I catch you helping someone with immigration paperwork, I will slap you silly with a UPL suit.

Unless you are also a lawyer.

/ not a lawyer
// but I play one on Fark
/// and I do have a GED in Law
 
2013-04-09 11:13:38 AM  

red_dragon60: I suppose you could say the same of doctors, though, and they still flock to these programs. Maybe it's the fact that people actually respect doctors.


Um - the reason for the difference is "these programs" actually exist for doctors, but not really for lawyers yet.  They are discussing setting them up for lawyers.  Given the amount of lawyers who are desperate for loan relief and a job, i bet many would sign up for ~100k in loan forgiveness for 5 years.
 
2013-04-09 11:14:42 AM  
I realize the article is about rural areas, but even in a general sense we don't have enough litigators and legal professionals (paralegals, ect). Law school is too expensive, the pool of legal jobs that pay well too restricted, and the BAR association, by limiting accreditation to a certain number a year, acts effectively as a cartel limiting the number of "qualified" lawyers to keep prices high. Certain fields, like criminal defense and civil tort, really bare the brunt of this since our lack of proper subsidization and general demonization of those fields means the money and advancement opportunities available in them are negligible.

The result is we have too many lawyers trying to get into lucrative/advancement fields like corporate and prosecution, and way too few providing the most necessary and oft-used legal services. From that flows all sorts of evils: big offenders being able to bully the people they hurt out of pressing claims because they lack the know-how and funding to pursue them; citizens not knowing their rights, or how to navigate basic municipal law, or being able to affordably find people who do; prosecutorial misconduct and abuse that rarely gets called out or adequately opposed; a shift in the profession away from concerns for defendant rights and civil bureaucratic simplicity/knowledge and towards prosecutions, opaque procedures that protect government and high-resource litigants, corporate preference and judicial bureaucratic supremacy. Those evils lead to still others; unjust prosecutions, inefficient government at the local and county level, general disrespect for juries, cases being delayed because the system favors easy judicial dockets over actually clearing cases appropriately, police with a jaundiced view towards the rules and the citizens because they know they can get away with abuse by playing on the system's inertia, inappropriate fines that are too difficult and expensive to challenge, all sorts of bullshiat like that.

Litigiousness as a social trait gets a bad rap and lots of blame for nebulous "social ills", but what it actually means is that we, as citizens, prefer to settle our differences peaceably in the courts rather than with fist fights in the streets. It isn't even anything new; English-speaking society has been going to court at the drop of a hat since Saxon times, and being able to understand and navigate legal procedure was an important driver of literacy among better off English farmers during the Medieval period. Frequent use of the courts keeps society peaceful, predictable, and healthy. But to accomplish that, we need the right kind of professionals, and procedures that are easy and cheap enough for the average citizen to make use of. As it stands our legal systems are complicated, filled with contradictory archaic nonsense that no one ever bothered to take off the books, and compel the use of documentary procedures that have been out of date since the 1980s, at least. A standardization of local and state laws wouldn't hurt, either.
 
2013-04-09 11:16:15 AM  

Rwa2play: MyKingdomForYourHorse: Ummm no.... no we're not

In the medium-sized and big cities, that's true.  In places like the one mentioned in the article, yeah...yeah they are.


And not a single thing was lost
 
2013-04-09 11:16:38 AM  

tnpir: A valid point, to be sure, yet it's not just a problem in rural areas. I work in a massive metropolis and finding clients who are (1) able to pay and (2) willing to pay is an ongoing struggle.  We do alright, though, much better than if we were in the countryside.


Oh sure, there's also a massive demand for legal services in cities as well, for similar reasons. It's almost impossible to run a firm solely on housing claims for low-income tenants, for instance.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: I don't like the sound of that...

If I catch you helping someone with immigration paperwork, I will slap you silly with a UPL suit.

Unless you are also a lawyer.

/ not a lawyer
// but I play one on Fark
/// and I do have a GED in Law


Excuse me, I have to go meet my asylum client now.
 
2013-04-09 11:16:55 AM  
So why do I recall hearing recently on an NPR program (forget which one) that we had a problem of too many lawyers and not enough work for them?
 
2013-04-09 11:17:39 AM  

This text is now purple: Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).

Lawsuits aren't filed in rural areas. They tend to get shopped to venues in the major cities, which more frequently have sympathetic judges or juries, or award larger awards. Amazingly, that's where the lawyers are.


SOME civil suits get shopped for a tactical advantage in a certain forum, but those are likely to be major cases involving out of state defendants (products liability and the like).  Most civil disputes will be filed in the local jurisdiction where the dispute arises.  The problem with rural areas is that if you practice there, you likely have to handle a wide variety of matters just to stay in business in a profession that has become extremely specialized over the past half a century.  So, faced with the prospect of living in Bumfark, Egypt saddled with six-figure student loan debt and having to hang up your own shingle and start taking whatever comes through the door and not having any mentoring or guidance in your early years and trying to figure out a way to pay your bills and malpractice insurance and CLE and bar dues and still eek out a living isn't very attractive for some strange reason.
 
2013-04-09 11:20:00 AM  
Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.
 
2013-04-09 11:20:43 AM  

nekom: So why do I recall hearing recently on an NPR program (forget which one) that we had a problem of too many lawyers and not enough work for them?


We do.  The job market is awful.  I think I read that we have finally reached the point where 50% of law school grads are either un-employed, under-employed or working in non-legal jobs six months after graduation.  Jobs for contract lawyers (paid by the hour rather than as a salaried associate) that paid $50 an hour plus benefits when I got out of law school are paying maybe half that with no benefits right now.
 
2013-04-09 11:22:08 AM  

Heron: Litigiousness as a social trait gets a bad rap and lots of blame for nebulous "social ills", but what it actually means is that we, as citizens, prefer to settle our differences peaceably in the courts rather than with fist fights in the streets.


We're becoming a nation of pussies... got it.

nekom: So why do I recall hearing recently on an NPR program (forget which one) that we had a problem of too many lawyers and not enough work for them?


Because that program was probably discussing a general trend across the nation while this article is discussing a situation particular to rural areas.
 
2013-04-09 11:23:09 AM  

This text is now purple: Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).

Lawsuits aren't filed in rural areas. They tend to get shopped to venues in the major cities, which more frequently have sympathetic judges or juries, or award larger awards. Amazingly, that's where the lawyers are.


Know how I know you've never been involved in a large products liability case?
 
2013-04-09 11:26:07 AM  

Sweaty Dynamite: This text is now purple: Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).

Lawsuits aren't filed in rural areas. They tend to get shopped to venues in the major cities, which more frequently have sympathetic judges or juries, or award larger awards. Amazingly, that's where the lawyers are.

Know how I know you've never been involved in a large products liability case?


That depends on the large city.  New Orleans was labelled a "judicial hell hole" by the ABA (certainly not a conservative organization) back in the 1990's during the heyday of asbestos litigation.  It has not improved.  Plaintiff lawyers love New Orleans and most of our elected judges draw huge campaign contributions from the plaintiffs' bar.  And they get what they pay for.
 
2013-04-09 11:26:14 AM  
theinfosphere.org

I say, I say we certainly are if I'm any example.
 
2013-04-09 11:26:49 AM  
1. Law school is  expensive, and usually paid for via large loans that require a solid paycheck to repay it. 
2. Rural living sucks. It's dead boring. There's a reason small towns have been places that kids leave for college and never come back to for over a century now.
3. Even if rural living didn't suck, there's just no way a lawyer there is going to be able to make the kind of money needed to pay off those law school loans.

1+2+3 = there is zero economic or social incentive for a lawyer to move out there. Until and unless those areas start offering competitive incentives and bonuses, the problem will continue to get worse. That's the free market those Red Staters are supposed to love so much at work.
 
2013-04-09 11:30:20 AM  

Solon Isonomia: If you "need an attorney to do anything," you're either overly litigious or are doing things well outside the bounds of the law.


Or you have a stalker who is both of those. It's a pain in the ass.
 
2013-04-09 11:32:19 AM  

The_Gallant_Gallstone:
Because that program was probably discussing a general trend across the nation while this article is discussing a situation particular to rural areas.


Fair enough, but what's the big problem? I live in a rural area. There are exactly zero lawyers in our small town. When I had to file for divorce, I simply picked up the phone and called someone in Pittsburgh, about an hour's drive away but fortunately it was almost all paperwork, there were no hearings. If there were extensive hearings, I can see how that can really rack up the billable hours, I suppose.
 
2013-04-09 11:38:58 AM  
We do have too many law school graduates.  We don't have too many lawyers, at least in rural areas.  Why?  How can this be?  Recent law school graduates don't have enough experience to be good lawyers, and they can't afford to work in rural areas as an entry-level lawyer to gain that experience.

It's not just people going to third-tier private schools who graduate with a ton of debt.  Even in-state tuition has increased dramatically at some schools - my alma mater, IU law school, has increased in-state tuition from $8,500 a semester in 2007 to $14,300 a semester this spring, and overall has tripled in-state tuition since I started going in the late 90s.  ABA rules prevent a full-time law student from working more than 20 hours a week, so even the most frugal student is going to incur over $100,000 in expense, including room and board, and be unable to work enough during school to pay it off.  And so when he or she graduates with six figures in student loan debt, the newly minted attorney can't afford to go to a rural area to work for a general practitioner for $35,000 a year.
 
2013-04-09 11:42:30 AM  
In addition to Teach For America, have Lawyer For America.

/Be thankful I didn't try to make the acronym LMFAO.
 
2013-04-09 11:42:41 AM  

whistleridge: 1. Law school is  expensive, and usually paid for via large loans that require a solid paycheck to repay it. 
2. Rural living sucks. It's dead boring. There's a reason small towns have been places that kids leave for college and never come back to for over a century now.
3. Even if rural living didn't suck, there's just no way a lawyer there is going to be able to make the kind of money needed to pay off those law school loans.

1+2+3 = there is zero economic or social incentive for a lawyer to move out there. Until and unless those areas start offering competitive incentives and bonuses, the problem will continue to get worse. That's the free market those Red Staters are supposed to love so much at work.


Even beyond the soul-crushing boredom, there's the problem two-income families face.  Even if one person lands a good job in a rural area, the spouse/partner has a hard time finding work that pays anywhere close to what they can earn in a city.  This is why my current employer has a really hard time recruiting people - and why I'm moving to a much bigger city in a couple months.
 
2013-04-09 11:46:20 AM  

Snarfangel: Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.


North Dakota does have reciprocity with just about every other state, so an Ohio attorney in good standing (and with five years of practice) could be admitted by motion to the North Dakota Bar.
 
2013-04-09 11:46:31 AM  
Oh, if only there were some magical technology that allowed people to communicate across great distances like 100 miles or so.  But like that's ever going to happen.

\yeah, for criminal defense, I guess you're going to want that one-on-one contact quickly, but for most other legalese...
 
2013-04-09 11:48:48 AM  

give me doughnuts: Snarfangel: Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.

North Dakota does have reciprocity with just about every other state, so an Ohio attorney in good standing (and with five years of practice) could be admitted by motion to the North Dakota Bar.


Is that actually common? That would be as motion of pro hac vice, correct? I know that my divorce attorney was licensed to practice in Pennsylvania and Colorado, I assume he probably moved but retained his bar license for his old state.
 
2013-04-09 11:54:44 AM  

GoldDude: Oh, if only there were some magical technology that allowed people to communicate across great distances like 100 miles or so.  But like that's ever going to happen.

\yeah, for criminal defense, I guess you're going to want that one-on-one contact quickly, but for most other legalese...



Many states already have provisions in the court rules where you can "appear" by phone if there is a good reason why you can't show up in person. It wouldn't take much effort to amend them.

But at the same time, small-town attorneys make money through appearance fees. A collections firm might have a half-dozen cases on the docket in East Bucktooth a few days per month, and some local JD is going to make between $50 and $100 per case to represent them at Motion Hour .
 
2013-04-09 11:58:03 AM  
Sendtence patent & copyright trolls to solve the shortage by forcing them to rot in some podunk town.
 
2013-04-09 11:58:56 AM  

nekom: Is that actually common? That would be as motion of pro hac vice, correct? I know that my divorce attorney was licensed to practice in Pennsylvania and Colorado, I assume he probably moved but retained his bar license for his old state.


No.  Many states allow an attorney who has been practicing in good standing in a different state to pay a one time lump sum and be admitted to its bar.

Alas most of the really attractive states don't do that, so it is redo the bar exam for you if you move.
 
2013-04-09 12:00:20 PM  

nekom: give me doughnuts: Snarfangel: Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.

North Dakota does have reciprocity with just about every other state, so an Ohio attorney in good standing (and with five years of practice) could be admitted by motion to the North Dakota Bar.

Is that actually common? That would be as motion of pro hac vice, correct? I know that my divorce attorney was licensed to practice in Pennsylvania and Colorado, I assume he probably moved but retained his bar license for his old state.


Yeah, it's pretty common.

 It got so bad in Florida with "snow-birds" from the Northeast coming down for a couple of months and poaching the local clients, that the Florida Bar scrapped all the reciprocity. Now, if you want to proctive law in Florida, you have to take and pass the Florida Bar exam. They don't care if you are a retired Supreme Court Justice, you have to take their test.
 
2013-04-09 12:04:31 PM  
Addendum: the pro hac vice motions aren't that common, anymore. It's the reciprocity agreements, that are pretty common.
 
2013-04-09 12:06:08 PM  

whistleridge: 1. Law school is  expensive, and usually paid for via large loans that require a solid paycheck to repay it. 
2. Rural living sucks. It's dead boring. There's a reason small towns have been places that kids leave for college and never come back to for over a century now.
3. Even if rural living didn't suck, there's just no way a lawyer there is going to be able to make the kind of money needed to pay off those law school loans.

1+2+3 = there is zero economic or social incentive for a lawyer to move out there. Until and unless those areas start offering competitive incentives and bonuses, the problem will continue to get worse. That's the free market those Red Staters are supposed to love so much at work.


According to the article, bootstrappy South Dakota is going to start offering state subsidies.
 
2013-04-09 12:10:09 PM  

nekom: give me doughnuts: Snarfangel: Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.

North Dakota does have reciprocity with just about every other state, so an Ohio attorney in good standing (and with five years of practice) could be admitted by motion to the North Dakota Bar.

Is that actually common? That would be as motion of pro hac vice, correct? I know that my divorce attorney was licensed to practice in Pennsylvania and Colorado, I assume he probably moved but retained his bar license for his old state.


Not quite; pro hac vice is admission for a single case only (in Latin it means "for this occasion"); often you have to have some kind of tie to the case outside the state (e.g. you worked on a related case in your home jurisdiction), or sometimes you're required to take on a local attorney as an advisor on local law or something like that.  It's granted case-by-case on petition to the presiding judge.

What he's talking about is "admission on motion" or "admission on waivers," or whatever, depending on the state, and it's actually quite common.  It's basically the state supreme court (or board of bar examiners, or whoever else determines who's qualified to practice law) saying, "OK, this guy practiced in state X for a few years, and doesn't have any malpractice complaints or ethics violations on his record, and now he wants to be licensed to practice here.  So he'd probably pass the bar exam in our state if we made him, but since he's an experienced attorney that's probably not necessary since whatever parts of our law that aren't in common with that of his state he should have enough sense and skill to look up.  So we'll waive the requirement that he pass our state's bar exam and save all of us the trouble."

Whether or not you can do that, of course, depends on where you're licensed and where you want to go.  Some states I imagine are quite free about it, some states only let in attorneys from certain other states, and in others you sometimes need a letter of introduction from an attorney registered in that state and/or have to sign an affidavit stating that you're going to set up a practice there.  Florida doesn't let anyone waive in.

And sometimes, some people take multiple bar exams.  The northeast states seem to stagger the test dates by a few days to let you do that; I had a number of classmates who took the New York & Massachusetts exams back-to-back.  Others take New Jersey & New York, or New Jersey & Pennsylvania, etc.
 
2013-04-09 12:11:13 PM  
whistleridge: "That's the free market those Red Staters are supposed to love so much at work."

But they've never recognized the contrast between their words and their reality when it's come up before.
Their hypocrisy in having their infrastructure subsidized by the very people they hold in contempt is well-traveled ground.
And they've never shown the least bit of shame when it comes time to *demand* the next subsidy.
So why should anyone expect this situation to be any different?

The city folk they hate so much are going to be subsidizing their lawyers the same way they subsidize the roads, water, sewer, data, schools, hospitals and the damn courts themselves.
 
2013-04-09 12:21:34 PM  

JackieRabbit: sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.

I see you've never spent much time in rural areas. If you think a successful farmer, who manages 5,000 acres and spends $3M/yr to earn $250K is ignorant, you don't know much about agriculture.


Shhh, he's rollin'
 
2013-04-09 12:31:07 PM  
"Good".  The missing word is "Good".
 
2013-04-09 12:32:31 PM  
I am outraged!!  Spending tax money to place lawyers in these towns of parasites??  What would our Savior Ayn Rand say about this sort of socialist claptrap!!  Let the market decide, that's what!!  Acceding to the "needs" of these despicable bottom feeding lazy Communist parasites as if they're people!  What next, a surcharge on gold plated cravats to fund this boondoggle??  No!!!!  Let the Great Chain find a solution, if there needs to be one.
 
2013-04-09 12:38:56 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Maybe we could be like other countries and not have everybody need a lawyer for so may parts of life?


That would require you, the ordinary non-lawyer citizen, to stop being such self-absorbed, amoral bastards.   If everytime somebody wronged you, you didn't think "I should sue", If jackpot noises didn't go off in your head when you slipped and fell at the grocery store, and if you'd stop trying to take advantage of everyone you did business with, we lawyers would starve.  but I don;t see that happening anytime soon.

You want to kill the "lawsuit culture" in this country truly dead as a doornail in one easy step?  Vote for Single-payer, universal health care.   The biggest Line item in any lawsuit judgment is "future medical bills",  the second biggest is "medical bills already incurred".   If people could get injured without facing the spectre of bankruptcy, they probably wouldn;t bother suing most of the time but as it is, yeah it may have been an accident, and yeah it was your buddy's housed where you slipped on that ice cube and broke your leg, but you've got a $50k hospital bill and no insurance, so you've got to do SOMETHING
 
2013-04-09 01:03:28 PM  
"America is suffering a serious lack of HONEST lawyers"

true.
 
2013-04-09 01:05:23 PM  
A new client had just come in to see a lawyer. "Can you tell me how much you charge?", said the client.
"Of course", the lawyer replied, "I charge $200 to answer three questions!"
"Well that's a bit steep, isn't it?"
"Yes it is", said the lawyer, "now what's your final question?"


true.
 
2013-04-09 01:11:28 PM  
so many youngsters go into law because they know they'll have the chance to make some dollars.  their talents could be better spent elsewhere, but then they wouldn't be able to impress anyone and say: i'm taking my bar next month.

the bar has a hidden pussy magnet in it.
 
2013-04-09 01:12:55 PM  

Jim.Casy: Interesting. I'll forward this article to all my friends working as baristas, or temps, or some other shiat job, trying to pay down their law school debt because absolutely nobody will hire them as a freakin lawyer. All they need to do is move to rural South Dakota, then they'll be raking in the cash!



well, at least law schools are making a killing.
 
2013-04-09 01:13:48 PM  
99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................
 
2013-04-09 01:16:00 PM  
law student 100k in debt?

dont' worry, the tax payer will cover it if need be.
 
2013-04-09 01:24:59 PM  

Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................


It explains that they (theoretically) write laws and so should have training in how to interpret and apply those laws?
 
2013-04-09 01:31:31 PM  

Linux_Yes: "America is suffering a serious lack of HONEST lawyers"

true.


That isn't the quality I'm looking for in a lawyer AT ALL. I want a lawyer who I can pay to secure my interests, and I want him or her to be great at doing that. If they lie, it's probably because I'M PAYING THEM TO LIE. And I want them to be a good liar as well. Why? Because the other side is doing it too. Justice is crooked, money talks, and I want my best shot.
 
2013-04-09 01:41:22 PM  

Linux_Yes: so many youngsters go into law because they know they'll have the chance to make some dollars.  their talents could be better spent elsewhere, but then they wouldn't be able to impress anyone and say: i'm taking my bar next month.

the bar has a hidden pussy magnet in it.


That's true. I've heard of bar magnets.
 
2013-04-09 01:42:26 PM  

sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they?


To get away from ignorant f*cksticks like yourself
 
2013-04-09 01:48:36 PM  

Teiritzamna: Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................

It explains that they (theoretically) write laws and so should have training in how to interpret and apply those laws?



Please Proceed.    SFW

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-29/business/35494243_1_jo b- creator-investment-income-long-term-care

have a nice day!
 
2013-04-09 01:50:13 PM  

nekom: Linux_Yes: "America is suffering a serious lack of HONEST lawyers"

true.

That isn't the quality I'm looking for in a lawyer AT ALL. I want a lawyer who I can pay to secure my interests, and I want him or her to be great at doing that. If they lie, it's probably because I'M PAYING THEM TO LIE. And I want them to be a good liar as well. Why? Because the other side is doing it too. Justice is crooked, money talks, and I want my best shot.



you are describing the 'greatest country on earth'  and why it has the issues it has.  well done.
 
2013-04-09 01:57:47 PM  

Linux_Yes: Teiritzamna: Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................

It explains that they (theoretically) write laws and so should have training in how to interpret and apply those laws?


Please Proceed.    SFW

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-29/business/35494243_1_jo b- creator-investment-income-long-term-care

have a nice day!


not entirely sure what that was or what it had to do with anything - but you wished me a nice day, so i say:

I hope yours is nice as well!
 
2013-04-09 02:04:26 PM  

Linux_Yes:
you are describing the 'greatest country on earth'  and why it has the issues it has.  well done.


Hey, I don't like our farked up system either, but I do have to live within its framework. So if they're all a bunch of liars, I want my guy or gal to be the lyingest liar that ever lied if it helps me come out on top.
 
2013-04-09 02:06:40 PM  

Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.
which explains alot............................


37%
 
2013-04-09 02:15:03 PM  

samiamthelaw: Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.
which explains alot............................

37%


you stinker.
 
2013-04-09 02:42:50 PM  
Tom Paxton, Tom Paxton to the white courtesy phone, please.

/One Million Lawyers
//And Other Disasters
 
2013-04-09 02:48:51 PM  

nekom: Linux_Yes: "America is suffering a serious lack of HONEST lawyers"

true.

That isn't the quality I'm looking for in a lawyer AT ALL. I want a lawyer who I can pay to secure my interests, and I want him or her to be great at doing that. If they lie, it's probably because I'M PAYING THEM TO LIE. And I want them to be a good liar as well. Why? Because the other side is doing it too. Justice is crooked, money talks, and I want my best shot.


You've fallen for the fallacy that a liar you're paying will only lie and cheat others, not you. I don't believe you have any first hand experience with attorneys either. Otherwise you would know that a lying sack of shiat attorney (redundant) may lie on your behalf, but they will also do the same to you.

Believe that.
 
2013-04-09 03:07:35 PM  

Sweaty Dynamite: This text is now purple: Omnivorous: It's not "America" but rural areas.  A retired friend who's a fellow prosecutor in rural Indiana is getting hired on contract by the county as a public defender because the county has so few lawyers (and they HATE hiring city folks).

Lawsuits aren't filed in rural areas. They tend to get shopped to venues in the major cities, which more frequently have sympathetic judges or juries, or award larger awards. Amazingly, that's where the lawyers are.

Know how I know you've never been involved in a large products liability case?


I live in Philadelphia. I know of a case where the judge, at pre-trial motions, questioned the parties as to why this obviously alien case hadn't been removed from Philadelphia County. The defense showed him his denied removal motion -- signed by that judge.

Philly's more rotten than a board made of termites.
 
2013-04-09 03:22:56 PM  

nekom: So why do I recall hearing recently on an NPR program (forget which one) that we had a problem of too many lawyers and not enough work for them?


That's better stated as we have too many lawyers who need to earn upper middle class cost of living plus $15,000 and too few of them are perceived to be worth that sort of rate to clients who can pay that much.
 
2013-04-09 03:36:30 PM  

Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................


Dead wrong, but a common misperception. Less than 37% are overall and the precentage is shrinking.  If they WERE lawyers they'd write better laws  and the court wouldn't contantly be having to say "WTF did Congress mean by THIS anyway"?
 
2013-04-09 04:27:59 PM  

Magorn: Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................

Dead wrong, but a common misperception. Less than 37% are overall and the precentage is shrinking.  If they WERE lawyers they'd write better laws  and the court wouldn't contantly be having to say "WTF did Congress mean by THIS anyway"?


Pretty soon the only lawyers on The Hill will hail from "K" Street.

Who do think actually writes the majority of our laws now?
 
2013-04-09 04:30:33 PM  

This text is now purple: wozzeck: I live about a forty minute train ride from philadelphia

Your profile says you live in Philadelphia.


Ah, well, it doesn't. And its also is the original data I entered seven years ago.
 
2013-04-09 05:45:57 PM  

Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................


wut?
 
2013-04-09 05:55:46 PM  

JackieRabbit: sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.

I see you've never spent much time in rural areas. If you think a successful farmer, who manages 5,000 acres and spends $3M/yr to earn $250K is ignorant, you don't know much about agriculture.


That's on the high end of the bell curve for farmers these days. Heck, the high end of the bell curve for farmers ever. Sort of going to assume that the person you're thinking of is associated with a major corporation of some kind (for both providing capital investments, like seed, machinery, etc.), grows subsidized crops (for ethanol?), and has a fairly large staff of people under them?

Not saying that it's impossible - I know someone in a fairly similar situation, though most of their income is gained through training horses on the side. But he and his family are the only ones I've known who come anywhere near earning $250K / year. Most farmers that I know (or are related to via marriage) are actually working two jobs - one job to pay the bills, and farming because they don't want to let their family land go fallow for too long. It's more expensive for them to try to clear it of small trees and shrubs after 10 years fallow than it is to just grow hay every year and sell it to neighbours.

/Maybe it's different in Northern Ontario, but that's where the successful farmer I know is located. Even the farmers out in Alberta aren't pulling in $250K from their farms.
 
2013-04-09 06:25:14 PM  

Techhell: JackieRabbit: sure haven't: Because no one wants to live in rural areas anymore.

Why would they? Corruption, racism, ignorance. Everything is amplified in these terrifying little towns. Not to mention the excruciating boredom and general lack of intelligent citizens.

I see you've never spent much time in rural areas. If you think a successful farmer, who manages 5,000 acres and spends $3M/yr to earn $250K is ignorant, you don't know much about agriculture.

That's on the high end of the bell curve for farmers these days. Heck, the high end of the bell curve for farmers ever. Sort of going to assume that the person you're thinking of is associated with a major corporation of some kind (for both providing capital investments, like seed, machinery, etc.), grows subsidized crops (for ethanol?), and has a fairly large staff of people under them?

Not saying that it's impossible - I know someone in a fairly similar situation, though most of their income is gained through training horses on the side. But he and his family are the only ones I've known who come anywhere near earning $250K / year. Most farmers that I know (or are related to via marriage) are actually working two jobs - one job to pay the bills, and farming because they don't want to let their family land go fallow for too long. It's more expensive for them to try to clear it of small trees and shrubs after 10 years fallow than it is to just grow hay every year and sell it to neighbours.

/Maybe it's different in Northern Ontario, but that's where the successful farmer I know is located. Even the farmers out in Alberta aren't pulling in $250K from their farms.


So much this. 

I have an ex whose father is a farmer. He inherited something like 7,000 acres from HIS father, along with all of the buildings, equipment, etc that you would need to run it. And for awhile, he did really well: he grew tobacco (it was *heavily* subsidized in NC), a variety of food crops (corn, soy, and some other stuff in rotation), and raised hogs. He's a bright guy - degree in chemistry from UNC, graduated near the top of his class - and a solid businessman.

But his margins were always razor-thing. It was always a question of 'drop $30k to fix the tractor right, or drop $3k to fix it just enough to get by' and stuff like that. The buyers always controlled the prices. Once the tobacco subsidies went away, there was no room for error. After 2 hurricanes in 5 years, he said fark it, sold most of the land (he kept about 100 acres, just because he likes the routine of working the land), and went into hog raising full time. Yeah, it stinks like hell, but he's not at the mercy of the weather, and he's not having to constantly keep track of what is and isn't subsidized this year.

He swears the small farmer is intentionally being driven out of business. I'm inclined to at least partly believe him.
 
2013-04-09 06:47:11 PM  

whistleridge: He swears the small farmer is intentionally being driven out of business. I'm inclined to at least partly believe him.



A big part of it is the fact that for many (most?  all?) of your commodity crops the agricultural market is structured like an hourglass - where you have many thousands of farmers growing the food, many millions of mouths consuming it, and a handful of massive food traders/processors like Cargill and Con-Agra sitting between the two and skinning them both.  That's a big reason why food prices at the supermarket keep going up while family farmers keep going out of business.
 
2013-04-09 07:22:57 PM  

nmemkha: Sendtence patent & copyright trolls to solve the shortage by forcing them to rot in some podunk town.


Like the booming metropolis that is Marshall, Texas?
 
2013-04-09 08:09:53 PM  

Magorn: Linux_Yes: 99% of our CONgress are lawyers too.


which explains alot............................

Dead wrong, but a common misperception. Less than 37% are overall and the precentage is shrinking.  If they WERE lawyers they'd write better laws  and the court wouldn't contantly be having to say "WTF did Congress mean by THIS anyway"?


To be honest, I'm not sure that they've actually ever said anything that was factually correct. Engaging them in debate is futile - I've seen people do so before. Even if you "win" you'll only end up being baffled when they repeat the same erroneous thing a few minutes later. It makes about as much sense as taking on faith anything "GAT_00" says as being correct and I imagine the frustration levels are similar. Some folks just seem to have a form of insanity that prevents them from engaging with reality and the real oddity is that they seem to think that they're the ones who are living in reality and that it is the rest of us that are "sheeple," "out of touch," or "agents of the man."

It's amusing to watch though.
 
2013-04-09 09:37:04 PM  

Snarfangel: Maybe they can set up remote lawyering. A guy in Sticks, North Dakota (not a real town, I think) teleconferences with a lawyer in Big City, Ohio (not a real city). Maybe set up something like that in the court room too, if they are really desperate. That way, a lawyer could help clients without travelling a thousand miles.


I've been there. It was founded by Eldon St. Bigg in the 1820's. Big City, OH is the second largest village in Stumpwater County, supported mostly by pig iron, charcoal and mining industries. If they could make misery an export, they would since they have plenty.
 
2013-04-09 09:50:46 PM  

WhippingBoy: "Can you imagine a world without lawyers?"


Leaving satisfied
 
2013-04-09 10:03:18 PM  

Contribution Corsair: That would require legalese to go away. As long as leases and contracts are used in many parts of life we can't get rid of them. It is either that or teach people how to properly read legalese or require more common language use in those.


I think that using the 'weights and measures' clause in the constitution, the Congress should empanel a team of senior contract law experts and come up with boiler-plate contracts for, say, the 10 most common legal contracts in America, and then require that in order to be any kind of Bank, Home Broker, or Lawyer, you must agree to offer these products.

Then make kids learn to read them in ninth grade as their social studies / Citizenship / Civics class until they can walk into a bank and say "I want a S-5 Standard loan and a T-7 Credit card."

// and yes, Counties should hire 3 new law school graduates a year every year for three year terms each. House 'em, Feed 'em, and get their school loan payments held up without interest for the period.
 
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