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(MassLive)   Democrat civil war brews in Massachusetts as lawmakers pass $500 million tax increase but risk veto by governor who insists on $1.9 billion tax increase   (masslive.com) divider line 42
    More: Scary, Massachusetts House, Massachusetts, cigarette taxes, Democrat Party, Ways and Means Committee, Nstar, excise taxes, House Minority Leader  
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1043 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Apr 2013 at 10:48 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



42 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-04-09 10:08:06 AM  
When you pull out the Maine card saying "Hey at least our gas taxes are still lower than them", you have already lost your argument
 
2013-04-09 10:50:28 AM  
Yes this is indeed an ideological battle for the soul of the party.

*rolls eyes*
 
2013-04-09 10:53:07 AM  
Illiterate headline is illiterate.
 
2013-04-09 10:53:48 AM  

Esc7: Yes this is indeed an ideological battle for the soul of the party.

*rolls eyes*




BSBSVR
 
2013-04-09 10:53:50 AM  
fta It would be the first increase in the cigarette tax since 2008 and the first hike in the gas tax since 1991.

I'm outraged?
 
2013-04-09 11:04:59 AM  
I am waiting with baited breath for the inevitable collapse of the Demcratic Party this will cause.
 
2013-04-09 11:08:48 AM  
I think subby was just being snarky.
 
2013-04-09 11:10:23 AM  
They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!
 
2013-04-09 11:28:14 AM  

impaler: I think subby was just being snarky

concerned
 
2013-04-09 11:36:06 AM  

cman: When you pull out the Maine card saying "Hey at least our gas taxes are still lower than them", you have already lost your argument


Even if the argument is that the gas tax hike (the first since 1991) isn't destructive or unprecedented?
 
2013-04-09 11:39:43 AM  

Vodka Zombie: Illiterate headline is illiterate.


Apparently some Democrat in MA is at war with himself.
 
2013-04-09 11:57:12 AM  

FarkedOver: They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!


They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.
 
2013-04-09 12:19:44 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: FarkedOver: They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!

They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.


ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING!? I pay $228 a month now for T fare..... I have to pay to go make someone else rich off my labor? The T should be farking free.
 
2013-04-09 12:40:02 PM  

FarkedOver: Cubicle Jockey: FarkedOver: They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!

They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.

ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING!? I pay $228 a month now for T fare..... I have to pay to go make someone else rich off my labor? The T should be farking free.


Economic super genius.
 
2013-04-09 12:41:40 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.


Now THAT'S what I call sarcasm!
 
2013-04-09 12:51:52 PM  

FarkedOver: Cubicle Jockey: FarkedOver: They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!

They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.

ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING!? I pay $228 a month now for T fare..... I have to pay to go make someone else rich off my labor? The T should be farking free.


Whatever you make should be free too! I shouldn't have to pay to make you rich off my labor!
 
2013-04-09 12:55:11 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: cman: When you pull out the Maine card saying "Hey at least our gas taxes are still lower than them", you have already lost your argument

Even if the argument is that the gas tax hike (the first since 1991) isn't destructive or unprecedented?


My apologies. My post was meant to be lighthearted.
 
2013-04-09 01:16:01 PM  

jigger: Economic super genius.


Would it be that bad for business?  More people able to come in town and spend their money.  Workers having more money to spend whilst in town.
 
2013-04-09 01:31:17 PM  

FarkedOver: Cubicle Jockey: FarkedOver: They're going up on T fare again aren't they? FARKING ASSHOLES!

They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.

ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING!? I pay $228 a month now for T fare..... I have to pay to go make someone else rich off my labor? The T should be farking free.


Aren't monthly passes like $70?  They were when I left (August 2012).  Compared to the $800/month I spend between car payment, insurance, and gas, that's a nice $700/month profit.

/Of course, car insurance is $250/month because 20 year old males crash their cars.
 
2013-04-09 02:00:40 PM  

cman: When you pull out the Maine card saying "Hey at least our gas taxes are still lower than them", you have already lost your argument


I don't know. "We suck less" fits well on a bumper sticker.
 
2013-04-09 02:22:00 PM  

FarkedOver: jigger: Economic super genius.

Would it be that bad for business?  More people able to come in town and spend their money.  Workers having more money to spend whilst in town.


Who makes up the foregone revenue to the MBTA?
 
2013-04-09 03:42:41 PM  
Well, those of us down here on the South Coast sure would like to have a rail connection to Boston so we can biatch about fare increases, too...

The state already spent a ton of money improving tracks and putting in space for commuter stations in both Fall River and New Bedford, so why not just finish the freakin' job, get the trains running, give us an efficient, cheap way to get to Boston? Lots of folks down here will be jumping to get jobs up in Boston (we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the State here in Fall River). Hell, 24 is jammed most days with folks going up to work in Boston. Why not clear up some of that traffic and pollution?
 
2013-04-09 04:18:46 PM  
Out here in WMass, we don't have the T or the Big Dig, but we get to pay for it.  Fark Deval, fark Boston politics.
 
2013-04-09 05:07:24 PM  
Does the gas tax in Massachusetts stay dedicated to the roads or does it just dump into the general fund to be picked over by the bosses?
 
2013-04-09 06:18:53 PM  
The actual issue is about whether to raise revenue on the backs of the poor or the rich.  I far prefer the governor's plan.

/Sales taxes are regressive as heck
 
2013-04-09 07:07:35 PM  

WinoRhino: Cubicle Jockey: They absolutely need to. The T is running massive deficits.
Ridership continued to increase even after the recent bump in prices.
Clearly it is still underpriced.

Now THAT'S what I call sarcasm!



Not in the slightest. The MBTA is one of the best bargains in the country for the service provided

.

meyerkev: ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING!? I pay $228 a month now for T fare..... I have to pay to go make someone else rich off my labor? The T should be farking free.

Aren't monthly passes like $70? They were when I left (August 2012). Compared to the $800/month I spend between car payment, insurance, and gas, that's a nice $700/month profit.


He's a zone 4 commuter rail passenger. The dark orange area below.

And compared to what he would be paying in gas and parking, he is indeed saving a huge amount.

http://boston.bestparking.com/
 
2013-04-09 07:09:22 PM  

Bah, image fail.



Link
 
2013-04-09 07:09:22 PM  

birdboy2000: The actual issue is about whether to raise revenue on the backs of the poor or the rich.  I far prefer the governor's plan.

/Sales taxes are regressive as heck


This.
 
2013-04-09 07:55:19 PM  
I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.
 
2013-04-09 08:32:49 PM  

OgreMagi: I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.


Well, there's a bunch of things happening.

1) Labor costs and materials are going up, making programs more expensive.
2) (And this is the big one) All those amazing pensions that got negotiated years ago now actually have to get paid, and there is no money to do so.
3) Once you create a government program, it is difficult at best to get rid of it.

So since the size of government is increasing, they need to increase taxes (or figure out how to deal with #2 and #3, which is unlikely to happen in a Democratic state).  And if they're going to increase taxes, it might as well be those taxes they haven't raised in a bit.
 
2013-04-09 08:42:38 PM  

meyerkev: OgreMagi: I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.

Well, there's a bunch of things happening.

1) Labor costs and materials are going up, making programs more expensive.
2) (And this is the big one) All those amazing pensions that got negotiated years ago now actually have to get paid, and there is no money to do so.
3) Once you create a government program, it is difficult at best to get rid of it.

So since the size of government is increasing, they need to increase taxes (or figure out how to deal with #2 and #3, which is unlikely to happen in a Democratic state).  And if they're going to increase taxes, it might as well be those taxes they haven't raised in a bit.


Which really points out the underlying problem.  Government growing like "the blob" until it consumes everything.  This is not a good thing.
 
2013-04-09 10:05:31 PM  

OgreMagi: I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.


Never heard of inflation, eh?
 
2013-04-09 10:46:58 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: OgreMagi: I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.

Never heard of inflation, eh?


Yes, and I see you don't know how it works.
 
2013-04-10 12:33:50 AM  

OgreMagi: cameroncrazy1984: OgreMagi: I have a serious problem with the attitude of "we haven't raised that tax in five years, so it's long overdue."  Uh, no.  How about governments learn to live within our means?  If you only raise taxes every five years, eventually you tax people to death.

Never heard of inflation, eh?

Yes, and I see you don't know how it works.


This.  It's like me complaining that tipping has gone from 15% to 25-30% in my lifetime, and you saying that it has to do with the higher cost of the food.

/The only case where I'm willing to buy inflation is with gas taxes.  And that's less a function of price and more a function of higher MPG.
//In fact, since most taxes are progressive per dollar taxed, if anything inflation should make taxes go down.
 
2013-04-10 01:07:37 AM  

Lord_Baull: I am waiting with baited breath


Eww.
 
2013-04-10 08:23:30 PM  

OgreMagi: Which really points out the underlying problem. Government growing like "the blob" until it consumes everything. This is not a good thing.


The MA budget is trying to recover from tax cuts from a decade ago.

http://massbudget.org/report_window.php?loc=tax_cuts_factsheet. html


massbudget.org
 
2013-04-10 08:45:51 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: OgreMagi: Which really points out the underlying problem. Government growing like "the blob" until it consumes everything. This is not a good thing.

The MA budget is trying to recover from tax cuts from a decade ago.http://massbudget.org/report_window.php?loc=tax_cuts_factsheet. html
[massbudget.org image 726x307]


And?  There's a reason they call it Taxachusetts.  That state is so over taxed that California politicians are looking at it for ideas.
 
2013-04-10 08:49:08 PM  

meyerkev: In fact, since most taxes are progressive per dollar taxed, if anything inflation should make taxes go down.


If tax tables are not adjusted for inflation, you'll constantly get pushed up into progressively higher brackets and end up paying more taxes.
 
2013-04-10 09:17:58 PM  

OgreMagi: meyerkev: In fact, since most taxes are progressive per dollar taxed, if anything inflation should make taxes go down.

If tax tables are not adjusted for inflation, you'll constantly get pushed up into progressively higher brackets and end up paying more taxes.


Sorry, didn't make myself clear.

Since most taxes are progressive or flat per dollar taxed, to achieve the same GDP%, the tax rates can go down as inflation goes up.

Dad makes $28K in the Midwest, pays ~$5K to state (including sales), fed, local, and SS. (State income is about 3.5%, marginal is 4.35%)
I make $72K in the Bay Area, pay ~$26K to state (including sales), fed, local and SS.  (Total State income is about 5.6%, marginal is 9.3%)

Because of insane COL differences, we're at about the same point in terms of lifestyle and "spare cash value" (Or since I got a roommate, I have the $12K I'm not spending on rent to throw around, but in exchange, I got a roommate.  Once my employment situation is more stable, this 'may' change).

However, a state full of me's can provide way more taxes as a percentage of income given the same tax brackets than a state of Dad's.

So my state could theoretically have lower taxes than Dad's state (Spoiler Alert: It doesn't, largely because the Bay Area is an ocean of high-COL surrounded by horrendous poverty in the Central Valley, and CA has insanely progressive income tax), and get the same percentage of income.

And thus, inflation should, if anything, drive tax rates down.
 
2013-04-11 06:30:22 PM  

OgreMagi: And?


Do you have short term memory problems? You say this, in a thread about Massachusetts considering various forms of tax increases:

Government growing like "the blob" until it consumes everything.

I then post a chart demonstrating that the government has shrunk considerably in some areas in Massachusetts since tax cuts were enacted a year ago.
 
2013-04-11 07:04:21 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: OgreMagi: And?

Do you have short term memory problems? You say this, in a thread about Massachusetts considering various forms of tax increases:

Government growing like "the blob" until it consumes everything.

I then post a chart demonstrating that the government has shrunk considerably in some areas in Massachusetts since tax cuts were enacted a year ago.


Massachusett taxes were growing at an unstustantable rate for years (decades?).  They enact a tax cut because people are, rightfully, getting pretty pissed off about it.  Then they (the politicians) go back to their old habits of raising taxes constantly instead of living within their means as they should.

The occasional tax cut slipped in between constant tax increases is the circus used to placat the people while they are still getting farked up the backside.

Here in California it's the same story, except all we got was a fractional percentage of a sales tax decrease that was easily eaten by the exra fees and surchages they have been slapping onto all government transactions.
 
2013-04-11 07:45:14 PM  

OgreMagi: living within their means as they should.


If they tax 100 per head, and spend 100 per head, that is living within their means.
If they tax 3000 per head, and spend 3000 per head, that is living within their means.
If they tax 100,000 per head, and spend 100,000 per head, that is living within their means.

Accumulating debt by spending without having the revenue stream to support that spending is NOT living within their means. Massachusetts has the highest state debt per capita in the country because a succession of GOP governors (Cellucci -> Swift -> Romney) decided to cut taxes. Taxes have to go up to pay for the services that Massachusetts citizens desire from their government.

OgreMagi: the people while they are still getting farked up the backside.

 The folks of the commonwealth like their government on the bulky side. We are the last state in the country that still identifies as majority liberal. We have the best public schools west of Finland. The proposed tax increase is not creating a hullabaloo here.


We will not follow other states off the austerity cliff, thankyouverymuch.
 
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