Abacus9: For what? Because Mr. God-complex likes to run his mouth.

There's ample casus belli. The sinking of the Cheonan should have been enough for war if there were any stomach for it in Washington and Seoul. The politicians are pussyfooting around because as long as it's just bluster and small attacks while S. Korea and the U.S. prosper, they see no need to upset the status quo. We should go to war because the Kim regime deserves to be toppled, not because the brat in charge now is running his mouth. We should go to war because after the Holocaust we said "never again" but we've let hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, die in prison camps in North Korea over the last 60 years, not to mention the millions who died in the arduous march. We should go to war because North Korea soldiers willing crawl through barbed wire and over landmines to defect, even knowing that their families will suffer for it. The people who bemoan Rwanda should be chomping at the bit to intervene, but their memories are short so they let the foolish war in Iraq guide their judgment instead. They think that war is always evil now, but there are greater evils than war, and in this case not going to war is one of them.

"Pyongyang has shown no sign of preparing its 1.2 million-strong army for war, indicating the threats could be partly intended for domestic purposes"

That pretty much sums it up.

neongoats: I wish I knew how to mock this properly. How do you make fun of a retard or a midget without sounding mean? Granted, comparing fatty kim to retards and midgets is an insult to midgets and retards everywhere.

Alonjar: I wonder if everyone is going to keep going "lol right.. stfu stupid fatty" until they randomly start shooting.  I forsee that as being the outcome if he truly is disillusioned (although i doubt it)

The problem is that the powers that be aren't following the script like they have in the past. US/SK, China, no one is tossing aid their way in response to the threats. This throws them for a loop and they are ratcheting up the crazy.

I fear this will end in bloodshed on both sides, but at least Korea will be unified again. It's just a matter of how much is left.

shortymac: universebetween: ontariolightning: @W7VOA: Yonhap quotes "multiple gov't sources" saying #ROK believes #DPRK "ready to launch missile" moved to east sea. #Korea

i was sitting here. really high. wondering how cool it would not be if china was secretly using north korea as a puppet to instigate war with the us. stupid nervous scared americans buy shiat. also it would pull us further into debt. after n.korea instigates war wit hthe south and we step in china doesnt have to fake pretense anymore and they can actually DEFEND north korea who they were already using as OFFENSE and then go on the offense themselves and take out whoever they want. maybe japan.

The only problem with that theory (from China's point of view anyway), is all our debt we sold to China would be null and void if we went to war together.

It might be the reason why we haven't given them food to shut them up yet. Going to war with China benefits America: no debt, manufacturing returns to the US/Mexico (a current trend), Obama gets warhawks on his side to push his agenda.

Damn, the derp in this thread is DEEP. China doesn't hold most of our debt. WE do (or our institutions and rich people do). China holds about a trillion dollars of our $18 trillion debt. So does Japan. This teabagger notion that we're debt slaves to China is just stupid; they actually hold less in U.S. bonds now than a couple years ago.

indarwinsshadow: Just to put this in perspective for my fellow North Americans.....if Canada and the U.S. entered into a border conflict, do you imagine ever for a second that S. Korea would care? That they'd send troops into Canada/U.S. to protect the lives and property of the people their to preserve those freedoms?
Not farking likely.

You are an idiot. South Korea has a mutual defense pact with the US, and in fact they have helped us militarily. South Korea sent troops that served under US command in Vietnam and both Gulf wars. 

 From what I've read they seem like a bunch of lazy, over-privileged assholes who want everyone (see white people) to give up their lives to keep their asses (money, wealth) safe.

I've lived there, and I can tell you that you know nothing about South Korea. OK, half an hour drinking with college students in Shinchon might give you that impression, but people in their 40s and over grew up in extreme poverty in a military dictatorship. South Korea's current prosperity has occurred only very recently, and older Koreans are grateful to the US as a military and economic partner. Moreover, South Korea has mandatory military conscription. Every Korean male over 18 is required to spend two years in the ROK military after leaving school, and technically can be called back in to service in time of war  until the age of 35.

To you, South Korea is just a blob on the map, but to me it's names and faces and memories.

log_jammin: so...all four people?

No.

As long as they're not shooting we should just ignore their temper tantrum.

/Republican

thisone: Does North Korea have any other countries on it's side in this?

From what I remember from MASH, in the Korean war they had China and the USSR.
(as an aside, the few Korean phrases I learned from MASH turned into nice ice-breakers with my Korean flat-mate in university)

China has already told North Korea it basically won't stand for massive instability in the region, and Russia is no longer the USSR.

Is anybody supporting North Korea at this point?

China has actually released several public statements basically telling North Korea to calm the fark down.  So No, not really.  Barring an offensive war into North Korea it is highly unlikely China provides them aid.  They like the status quo right now, because if the country falls they will have a massive humanitarian crisis as millions of starving, malnourished, brainwashed people flood over their borders.  Craziness is bad for business, which is the primary Chinese concern.

log_jammin: NobleHam: What, log_jammin, do you imagine will happen to make that regime fall?

No idea. what I do have an idea about is failed attempts at nation building and regime change.

NobleHam: There will be no insurgency or prolonged resistance in North Korea.

thank you Mr Cheney. Here I thought a brainwashed population force fed daily propaganda about the American war machine coming to crush the homes and families might just do more than roll over and whimper, but now we know they would greet us as liberators.

Right. You know failed attempts. Do you know McArthur's success in Japan? Do you know much about West Germany, or German reunification? Both of those are better examples than Iraq, which I would have told you was a mistake in 2002. In Korea you have a homogenous population, the same on both sides of the border. You have a cultural ideal of a unified and self-governed Korea. You have no neighboring countries or international terrorist groups with an interest in creating an insurgency. If the American war machine rolls in there may be a problem yes. That's why ground and occupation forces will have to be South Korean.

Cagey B: NobleHam: We ought to give them war whether they want it or not.

You're right. Initiating a massively destabilizing armed conflict in response to transparent dick-waving is the prudent call here. I'm glad the 403rd Keyboard Brigade is on the scene now.

No, eliminating an oppressive and belligerent dictatorship on the verge of nuclear capability which would destroy any chance of getting rid of them is a prudent call. We're going to go to war with North Korea eventually because we'll have to, it's better to do it now than when they have functioning delivery systems for their weapons.

Not to mention that every day we waste there are already innocent lives being lost to starvation in rural towns and villages, and to far worse than starvation in an unknown number of prison camps which make Soviet gulags look like daycare centers.

So we can wait for North Korea to crumble... except that their propaganda machine and tight control of resources prevents that from happening... and millions more will die horrible deaths before it happens. Or we can hope that Jong-Un gets reasonable and starts to reform, but that looks like a dimmer prospect every day, and millions more will die horrible deaths before it happens.

Or we can right the wrong we wrought 60 years ago and eliminate the leadership of that God-forsaken country before they can wreak anymore havoc on their own people, before they can hijack any more South Korea planes or kidnap their citizens, before they can blow up any more South Korean naval vessels or shell any more South Korean territory. We can attack pre-emptively and destroy their capability of damaging Seoul, eliminate their leadership and begin distributing food.

But I guess sitting on our hands and continuing to allow this abomination of a regime to exist is more prudent than a limited military action which would bring peace and economic growth to the region while reuniting a country which, on both sides, has sought reunification and self-determination for a century.

I've been working in Suwon, about 30 miles south of Seoul for the last 6 weeks. People here are more worried than usual that the NORKS are going to do something farked up.

Outta here on Thursday, it can't come soon enough. 44 hours and counting....

NobleHam: We ought to give them war whether they want it or not.

You're right. Initiating a massively destabilizing armed conflict in response to transparent dick-waving is the prudent call here. I'm glad the 403rd Keyboard Brigade is on the scene now.

I remain unconcerned. This guy's just an overgrown child with a God complex and a vivid imagination, and little to back it up.

Put up or shut up, NorK. You're the fat kid in gym class threatening to beat everyone up with their kung-fu.

I wish I knew how to mock this properly. How do you make fun of a retard or a midget without sounding mean? Granted, comparing fatty kim to retards and midgets is an insult to midgets and retards everywhere.

This won't end well. I doubt NK's brass really wants war, but at a certain point, I think the "put up or shut up" logic kicks in, something stupid happens, and...there we are.

[Insert, "I'm OK with this meme"]

Not a war hawk by any stretch, but better now than later...

They warned the folks in SOUTH Korea to leave.  They were still welcoming tourists (and their money) to Best Korea.

Dude, you have to have breaks between provocations otherwise people will just stop taking them seriously.

If they don't want war, they've been stupider and crazier than usual lately.

We ought to give them war whether they want it or not.

I wonder if everyone is going to keep going "lol right.. stfu stupid fatty" until they randomly start shooting.  I forsee that as being the outcome if he truly is disillusioned (although i doubt it)

mbillips: shortymac: universebetween: ontariolightning: @W7VOA: Yonhap quotes "multiple gov't sources" saying #ROK believes #DPRK "ready to launch missile" moved to east sea. #Korea

i was sitting here. really high. wondering how cool it would not be if china was secretly using north korea as a puppet to instigate war with the us. stupid nervous scared americans buy shiat. also it would pull us further into debt. after n.korea instigates war wit hthe south and we step in china doesnt have to fake pretense anymore and they can actually DEFEND north korea who they were already using as OFFENSE and then go on the offense themselves and take out whoever they want. maybe japan.

The only problem with that theory (from China's point of view anyway), is all our debt we sold to China would be null and void if we went to war together.

It might be the reason why we haven't given them food to shut them up yet. Going to war with China benefits America: no debt, manufacturing returns to the US/Mexico (a current trend), Obama gets warhawks on his side to push his agenda.

Damn, the derp in this thread is DEEP. China doesn't hold most of our debt. WE do (or our institutions and rich people do). China holds about a trillion dollars of our $18 trillion debt. So does Japan. This teabagger notion that we're debt slaves to China is just stupid; they actually hold less in U.S. bonds now than a couple years ago.

I should note that it's a crackpot conspiracy theory in response to a crackpot conspiracy theory, not what i actually believe.

/I love conspiracy theories
//Don't believe them however

p4p3rm4t3: mbillips: p4p3rm4t3: universebetween: ontariolightning: @W7VOA: Yonhap quotes "multiple gov't sources" saying #ROK believes #DPRK "ready to launch missile" moved to east sea. #Korea

i was sitting here. really high. wondering how cool it would not be if china was secretly using north korea as a puppet to instigate war with the us. stupid nervous scared americans buy shiat. also it would pull us further into debt. after n.korea instigates war wit hthe south and we step in china doesnt have to fake pretense anymore and they can actually DEFEND north korea who they were already using as OFFENSE and then go on the offense themselves and take out whoever they want. maybe japan.

                                                                                                                                    THIS.

?? You're agreeing that really high people come up with stupid geopolitical theories?

China has helped DPRK by fighting with them against the US and South Korea before. They have also been keeping North Korea alive.
As stated up thread nothing happens unless China says so. Why is it stupid?

Because the current Chinese government and economic system bear absolutely no resemblance to 1950 China. China has no interest in fighting a war with anyone (Mao farking LOVED wars according to a recent biography, because they were exciting, and he was a thrill-seeker who didn't give a crap about people). China would like to claim and defend some resources in the South China sea, which is the source of much of their military posturing, but the only people they have real beefs with are their major trading partners. And their whole economic boom since dumping communist economics is based on trade. The only reason they prop up North Korea is to keep out a wave of starving immigrants, and because they don't want a prosperous democracy right on their border to give the Chinese people ideas.

That's why it's stupid.

  UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."-Chesty Puller

"Retreat Hell! We're just attacking in another direction." (Attributed to Major General Oliver P. Smith, USMC, Korea, December 1950.)

universebetween: ontariolightning: @W7VOA: Yonhap quotes "multiple gov't sources" saying #ROK believes #DPRK "ready to launch missile" moved to east sea. #Korea

i was sitting here. really high. wondering how cool it would not be if china was secretly using north korea as a puppet to instigate war with the us. stupid nervous scared americans buy shiat. also it would pull us further into debt. after n.korea instigates war wit hthe south and we step in china doesnt have to fake pretense anymore and they can actually DEFEND north korea who they were already using as OFFENSE and then go on the offense themselves and take out whoever they want. maybe japan.

The only problem with that theory (from China's point of view anyway), is all our debt we sold to China would be null and void if we went to war together.

It might be the reason why we haven't given them food to shut them up yet. Going to war with China benefits America: no debt, manufacturing returns to the US/Mexico (a current trend), Obama gets warhawks on his side to push his agenda.

MythDragon: Why doesn't the NK military go in at feeding time, wrap the little bastard up in a rug, and chuck his ass in a river? Surely they are tired of his shiat. I am sure they enjoy living the perks of high ranking military, but they gotta know this eventualy will be bad news for everyone involved. I imagine one of them can 'retire' Kim, declare himself ruler, and open up lines of communication with the world starting with "Sorry we've been a bunch of assholes, but our people are starving. Please help us get to a level were we sustain ourselves, and we would love to join the rest of the world in harmony. Send in some inspectors if you want, just do what ever it takes to keep our people from dying"

Keep in mind, the NK military is likely the ones calling the shots and/or pushing the NK government to be dicks.  The generals get to live like kings.  They can't justify that unless the country is in a permanent war footing.

dittybopper: Also, it would be incredibly stupid and militarily inept to target the civilian population. You would first want to hit military targets. Hitting the civilian centers would be counter-productive: It pisses everyone off, and it doesn't significantly degrade the capabilities of your opponents. The *ONLY* exception to that would be a sort of watered-down "Mutually Assured Destruction" scheme, where you use the idea that you'd target civilian areas as a deterrent to invasion, *BUT* that's only viable if you have enough long range artillery to cause a significant amount of damage and casualties, and the DPRK really doesn't have that capability.

That, and you have to figure a lot of those troops have never fired that artillery piece in their life, a lot of the pieces haven't been fired ever or in decades...

nekom: Wait, why would the Japanese get involved in this? I agree that worst Korea could probably hold their own even without U.S. assistance (which we are treaty-bound to provide anyway), but why in the world would Japan have anything to do with it if the shiat finally hits the fan?

For starters, next to the RoK they're the most threatened by NK's nuclear arsenal.  Not only are they within easy range, they'd also be very directly impacted by any detonation on the Korean peninsula.

In the 1980s, NK was known to kidnap Japanese citizens.  NK missile tests overfly Japanese airspace.  NK vessels also poach Japanese waters and engage in espionage.

The two nations have even fought a naval engagement this (21st) century.

They don't like each other and the NKs are a clear and present danger to Japan.  You can book it that if the balloon goes up, the Japanese will at the least conduct combat air patrol, AEW, ELINT, tanker  and maritime patrol/escort missions.   I would bet they'd engage in actual air and naval combat operations.

indarwinsshadow: I was thinking yesterday, you know. I really couldn't give a flying crap if North Korea annihilated South Korea. I really don't care. Do you? I'm not saying this as a troll but would you really give up your life for a bunch of ungrateful Koreans? From what I've read they seem like a bunch of lazy over priviliged assholes who want everyone (see white people) to give up their lives to keep their asses (money, wealth) safe. F*ck 'em. It's time North Americans starting looking after our own countries. We get dragged into these wars for a bunch of people who would prefer us as chatel slaves, we get killed, they get rich. Forget it. I wouldn't go to war to save South Korea. Let North Korea have it. This isn't 1950 and the world has changed since the bad of days of spreading communisim.

Well.. considering a good chunk of computer memory chips are made in SK, a large amount of equipment for displays, radio transmission, and the second largest shipbuilding in the world... You might want to rethink that whole 'NK annihilating SK' bit.

miss diminutive: spamdog: Dude, you have to have breaks between provocations otherwise people will just stop taking them seriously.

Seriously. He's turning into the boy who cried wolf.

JustGetItRight: In less than 4 months, the US flag was flying over Pyongyang.
  If only we had stopped there. The Marine Corps ranks this one right up there with  Iwo Jima and Belleau Wood.
                                

From the CBC.ca article on this:

South Korean President Park Geun-hye, who has sought to re-engage North Korea with dialogue and aid since taking office in February, expressed exasperation Tuesday with what she called the "endless vicious cycle" of Seoul answering Pyongyang's hostile behaviour with compromise, only to get more hostility.

My ex's brother had paranoid schizophrenia.  When he was having an...episode...you were supposed to agree with whatever he said and do your best to appease him.  It didn't help.  I'm suddenly seeing a lot of parallels between that and the Koreas.

Gyrfalcon: Gawdzila: "Pyongyang has shown no sign of preparing its 1.2 million-strong army for war, indicating the threats could be partly intended for domestic purposes"
That pretty much sums it up.

Yep yep.

They cannot go across the DMZ, because there are so many land mines there, they'd lose half their army in the crossing; they cannot go over because whatever air force they have would be shot out of the skies in minutes. They can't go around, because the US carrier group in the Pacific is right there, not to mention Japan's Defense Force (aka the Japanese Army). Now, they've tried going under at several times in history, but there's a limit to how many soldiers you can send through tunnels per hour, and tunnels are insanely easy to kill people in, as al-Qaeda and the Taliban learned to their dismay.

An artillery barrage would seriously damage Seoul, and kill many thousands of people; and guarantee that soon South Korea would be an island nation. And that's the ONLY thing Kim has got as a realistic option at this point. He could conceivably throw a nuke in there--and merely guarantee that the final strike that kills his country would come from several points on the map besides America.

No matter how the scaremongers and war enthusiasts want to whip this up, and even admitting that some scenarios look somewhat worse for South Korea, Kim simply cannot win any kind of war, or even a battle of any size or duration. And the only reason, I suspect, that the US and China are even holding back at this point is to try to save the millions of North Koreans whose only real crime is existing in a country with psychos for dictators.

What he said.

When NK attacked in 1950 the US military was a shell of it's WWII strength, the South Korean army was barely 2 years old, and Japan had no military.   NK's attack was a tactical surprise and they were using equipment similar to that of the UN forces.  Despite all those advantages, the war was essentially over in two months when UN forces broke out of Pusan.  In less than 4 months, the US flag was flying over Pyongyang.  Air power, training, and combat experience played huge roles in the UN victory.

Today's NK military is basically an early Vietnam-era force with a small bit of late cold war vintage aircraft (MiG-29s and MiG-23s) representing the sharp end of their stick.  They're under constant surveillance so they'll be no surprise.  Finally, in addition to the US, they'd face South Korean and Japanese military forces that are among the best trained and equipped in the world.  Should they attack, the NKs would face roughly 600 combat aircraft equal to their best (35 MiG-29s) and vastly superior to everything else, 15 Aegis-equipped destroyers, and almost 30 modern submarines - from Japan and South Korea alone.  On the ground, they'd be sending obsolete-in-the-1970s T-55s to face a South Korean army equipped with 1,500 or so tanks at least equal and probably superior to a first gulf war Abrams.

Even without the US, they're up against an insurmountable task.  They could do some damage but the reply would make the Kuwati "Highway of Death" look like a church picnic.

Yeah, here's the thing: if you're going to fight someone, especially someone a lot bigger than you, you don't walk up to them and say "I'm going to punch you."  You wait until they turn around and then you punch them in the back of their farking neck.

NobleHam: No, eliminating an oppressive and belligerent dictatorship on the verge of nuclear capability which would destroy any chance of getting rid of them is a prudent call. We're going to go to war with North Korea eventually because we'll have to, it's better to do it now than when they have functioning delivery systems for their weapons.

Fooey.

We won't have to do jack about North Korea other than wait for it to collapse.  Their last ally (that would be China) even approved sanctions on them over this current round of nonsense.

Their government won't survive much longer.  That's why the desperation today.  They know it.  They have almost no industry, little food, and no friends to help.  They're doomed.  That's why they're using this Dr. Evil "get some nukes and hold the world hostage" bit.  It's the last card they can play.

And it isn't going to work.  Nobody is buying it this time.  All we have to do is wait and not send any aid.  Problem will fix itself in the next few years, with any luck.

dittybopper: Lehk: You undereestimate the artillery north korea has deployed.

The first shot would BE "the single most devastating mass ordinance barrage the world has ever seen or ever will see again"

And it would be directed at a civilian population.

Actually, I've taken a look at their artillery.   Most of it doesn't have the range to hit the large population centers like Seoul, though some of the more northerly cities are in range.

WHAT "more northerly cities"? Seoul is less than an hour's drive to the DMZ. Are you referring to the northern suburbs of Seoul, like Chonnyangni or Uijongbu? Both of them have US military bases attached, and attacking them would be instant war and the destruction of Best Korea. Or are you referring to out of the way towns in Kangwon-do, like Sokcho, but that's way to the east and really not an important target. There's an Army base in Munsan, northwest of Seoul, close to the Best Korean border, but again the Norks would be insane to hit it.


I'll start getting worried when I hear of troop movements within Best Korea.  Until that time, it's all bluster to show that Un is in charge.

It's Jung Un, not Un. Korean first names are, with a very few exceptions, two syllables, like Mi-Hye, Seung Ho, Hee Bin, Ji Won, and so on.

rwfan: Duck_of_Doom: HaywoodJablonski: Can we have global thermonuclear war already? I'm sick of all the foreplay

Like sleeping with my mom, you'd just be disappointed and wish this never started in the first place.

Spaced Lion: 6 days until KJU hits critical retard mass.

Wasn't there some warning given to diplomats to GTFO by the 10th?  It was posted in another of the zillion NK threads last week.  NK has been beating the war drums very hard over the past few weeks.  Why is he ratcheting up the rhetoric?  Can't just be for food aid.

Not food aid, this time he is holding out for McDonald's
[thechive.files.wordpress.com image 500x354]
Note the resemblance.


This is a bit of a threadjack, sorry. That little boy's name is Jambik. He's got his own documentary, and it is sad and a bit horrifying and will make you angry. It is well worth watching. Spoiler: He's not that size because of a Big Mac addiction.

spamdog: Dude, you have to have breaks between provocations otherwise people will just stop taking them seriously.

In my family, we call this the "one step too far" phenomenon. You can pester, annoy, push your family members' buttons only so far. There's a line, and it's not always easy to see. The One Step Too Far might be something relatively mild as compared to the other crap you've been up to, but it's that one little step that takes you over the edge of the heaping pile of your annoying shiat, and will get you punished (if it's a parent) or pounded (if it's a sibling.)

Since Li'l-Un is basically China's annoying PIA little brother, this image is working for me.

HMS_Blinkin: Which makes me wonder why they even bother----as Jon Stewart pointed out last week, NK civilians don't have access to outside media.  Kim could just tell his people he conquered America and burned down NY for all we care.  It'd work just as well and it wouldn't bother anyone outside of NK.

North Korea is sounding like the society in Battle Royal.

Gawdzila: "Pyongyang has shown no sign of preparing its 1.2 million-strong army for war, indicating the threats could be partly intended for domestic purposes"
That pretty much sums it up.

True, but I'm still a little concerned because we might not be able to tell if they mobilized their army.  They have effectively no fuel, food, or other supplies, and the majority of the army is on the DMZ anyway.  There wouldn't be a whole lot of movement even if they did "mobilize."

That said though, I agree, this is almost certainly internal bluster.  Which makes me wonder why they even bother----as Jon Stewart pointed out last week, NK civilians don't have access to outside media.  Kim could just tell his people he conquered America and burned down NY for all we care.  It'd work just as well and it wouldn't bother anyone outside of NK.

Gyrfalcon: Gawdzila: "Pyongyang has shown no sign of preparing its 1.2 million-strong army for war, indicating the threats could be partly intended for domestic purposes"
That pretty much sums it up.

Yep yep.

They cannot go across the DMZ, because there are so many land mines there, they'd lose half their army in the crossing; they cannot go over because whatever air force they have would be shot out of the skies in minutes. They can't go around, because the US carrier group in the Pacific is right there, not to mention Japan's Defense Force (aka the Japanese Army). Now, they've tried going under at several times in history, but there's a limit to how many soldiers you can send through tunnels per hour, and tunnels are insanely easy to kill people in, as al-Qaeda and the Taliban learned to their dismay.

An artillery barrage would seriously damage Seoul, and kill many thousands of people; and guarantee that soon South Korea would be an island nation. And that's the ONLY thing Kim has got as a realistic option at this point. He could conceivably throw a nuke in there--and merely guarantee that the final strike that kills his country would come from several points on the map besides America.

No matter how the scaremongers and war enthusiasts want to whip this up, and even admitting that some scenarios look somewhat worse for South Korea, Kim simply cannot win any kind of war, or even a battle of any size or duration. And the only reason, I suspect, that the US and China are even holding back at this point is to try to save the millions of North Koreans whose only real crime is existing in a country with psychos for dictators.

Everybody keeps talking about this as a U.S.-DPRK conflict. The ROK could handle these morons unassisted; they have a large, modern army and navy with excellent equipment. China and the U.S. are holding back because North Korea is no real threat to anyone but itself, and why waste blood and treasure just for regime change? Especially since South Korea doesn't want a war?

iq_in_binary: Alonjar: I wonder if everyone is going to keep going "lol right.. stfu stupid fatty" until they randomly start shooting.  I forsee that as being the outcome if he truly is disillusioned (although i doubt it)

The first shot would be followed by the single most devastating mass ordinance barrage the world has ever seen or ever will see again. The Norks would get maybe two shots off by any of their guns before they got completely wiped off the map.

Yeah, they've got a million man army, they've got lots of Russian artillery, they even have mines. We've got the benefit of all the technological advances made in the past 50 years and the best trained and best equipped soldiers. A bunch of brainwashed hip firing norkies that have been living off of tree bark for the past 6 months zerg rushing the DMZ are naught but target practice. Their artillery pieces aren't much better off given our ability to triangulate them after their first shot.

You undereestimate the artillery north korea has deployed.

The first shot would BE "the single most devastating mass ordinance barrage the world has ever seen or ever will see again"

And it would be directed at a civilian population.

Abacus9: As far as 25 million devotees, I'm sure that's what they want us to think. Drop 'em some food

I've seen a lot of folks suggesting this in other threads ("Let's just airdrop food for everyone"). This isn't Somalia, you know. They have elaborate air defense networks and hundreds of fighter jets. They don't have much fuel and probably not a ton of ammunition for those guns, but what are we supposed to do, just fly a hundred C-17's over Pyongyang in the middle of the night? There's no way that will cause trouble......

Does North Korea have any other countries on it's side in this?

From what I remember from MASH, in the Korean war they had China and the USSR.
(as an aside, the few Korean phrases I learned from MASH turned into nice ice-breakers with my Korean flat-mate in university)

China has already told North Korea it basically won't stand for massive instability in the region, and Russia is no longer the USSR.

Is anybody supporting North Korea at this point?

Abacus9: miss diminutive: After some googling, apparently President Ford signed an executive order prohibiting the assassination of foreign leaders. (I assume this implies during peace time, maybe if war were declared they could train their drones on Dear Leader)

neongoats: I mean, tying your hands or not, it's a good policy. In much of the world life is cheap, people think nothing of assassinating their way up the chain of command. By signing that order, Ford was saying to the civilized world "we aren't going to do this, don't do this to us".

I wish he had thought of forbidding "secretly funding insurgency organizations" and "supporting fundamentalist colonial dictatorships that burn temples full of buddhists alive for sport", but you know, can't get everything.

NobleHam: Because there are at least 100 people we'd have to do that to. Some crazier, some saner, but all prepared to step up and be as brutal and belligerent as Jong-Un.

Good points, and I'm not suggesting or advocating going around assassinating world leaders. I just think it's a better alternative to full blown war if this thing gets nasty. Better to take out one guy, if we have to, than to kill millions of North Koreans, not to mention how many Americans would get killed over it. For what? Because Mr. God-complex likes to run his mouth.

what good do you think killing Dear Eater would do?

miss diminutive: Abacus9: miss diminutive: Bin laden was the head of a nation of 25 million devotees armed with nuclear weapons?

I'm just saying, we have intelligence. We can find him. We have the technology to do it remotely. As far as 25 million devotees, I'm sure that's what they want us to think. Drop 'em some food. They'll get over it.

After some googling, apparently President Ford signed an executive order prohibiting the assassination of foreign leaders. (I assume this implies during peace time, maybe if war were declared they could train their drones on Dear Leader)

I mean, tying your hands or not, it's a good policy. In much of the world life is cheap, people think nothing of assassinating their way up the chain of command. By signing that order, Ford was saying to the civilized world "we aren't going to do this, don't do this to us".

I wish he had thought of forbidding "secretly funding insurgency organizations" and "supporting fundamentalist colonial dictatorships that burn temples full of buddhists alive for sport", but you know, can't get everything.

log_jammin: NobleHam: Do you know McArthur's success in Japan? Do you know much about West Germany, or German reunification?

yes, I'm fully aware of WWII, and comparing the outcome of WWII with a hypothetical regime change in north Korea is laughable.

You're right. It is laughable. North Korea would be a walk in the park compared to post-war Germany. Bosnia would be a better comparison.

and as I said, on one side of the border you have a brainwashed population force fed daily propaganda about the American war machine coming to crush the homes and families.

And as I said, South Korea would have to be the face.

neongoats: I'm sure if fat kim was kicking it in the suburbs of some allied nation, choking down starbucks and spending his free time jerking off, we would. Him being in the middle of a nation where normal sized Koreans, much less Americans would stand out as giants amongst the malnourished.

miss diminutive: Bin laden was the head of a nation of 25 million devotees armed with nuclear weapons?

I'm just saying, we have intelligence. We can find him. We have the technology to do it remotely. As far as 25 million devotees, I'm sure that's what they want us to think. Drop 'em some food. They'll get over it.

Abacus9: miss diminutive: NobleHam: limited military action

I think the issue is that many "limited military actions" can easily become "costly and bloody clusterfarks" if things don't go as planned. And we're talking war here, when do things ever go according to plan?

I don't get why we can't just do what we did with Bin Laden. Problem solved.

I'm sure if fat kim was kicking it in the suburbs of some allied nation, choking down starbucks and spending his free time jerking off, we would. Him being in the middle of a nation where normal sized Koreans, much less Americans would stand out as giants amongst the malnourished.

log_jammin: NobleHam: We're going to go to war with North Korea eventually because we'll have to

exactly. Just like we had to with the Soviets and China. It's inevitable.

universebetween: log_jammin: NobleHam: We're going to go to war with North Korea eventually because we'll have to

exactly. Just like we had to with the Soviets and China. It's inevitable.

we beat USSR in a game of monopoly. they went bankrupt but instead of us getting the money and property and railroads they sold it to their friend Russia who was also playing. we should of won that game.

And North Korea is already as close to bankrupt as it can get. What, log_jammin, do you imagine will happen to make that regime fall? An uprising of the masses? Too hungry, too brutalized. International pressure? We've seen how well that works. We got some concessions in the late 90s that lasted all of two years before they went back to the same old shiat. A high-minded reformer taking power? From the Kim family, or do you imagine one of his Generals will overthrow him and be a nice, reasonable guy?

Cagey B: NobleHam: So we can wait for North Korea to crumble... except that their propaganda machine and tight control of resources prevents that from happening...

Also, this is the part where you confirm that you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about. Go charge that DMZ, brave internet soldier.

I've studied Korea for fifteen years.

miss diminutive: NobleHam: limited military action

I think the issue is that many "limited military actions" can easily become "costly and bloody clusterfarks" if things don't go as planned. And we're talking war here, when do things ever go according to plan?

There will be no insurgency or prolonged resistance in North Korea. The idea of a unified Korea is too powerful in the psyche of both North and South to allow it, as long as the South takes charge in rebuilding. North Korea has even encouraged a hasty reconciliation once the war is over with its glorification of Choson and what it represents. When the leadership is gone, the fight will be over. This is not Iraq, this is not Vietnam.

NobleHam: So we can wait for North Korea to crumble... except that their propaganda machine and tight control of resources prevents that from happening...

Also, this is the part where you confirm that you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about. Go charge that DMZ, brave internet soldier.

log_jammin: NobleHam: We're going to go to war with North Korea eventually because we'll have to

exactly. Just like we had to with the Soviets and China. It's inevitable.

we beat USSR in a game of monopoly. they went bankrupt but instead of us getting the money and property and railroads they sold it to their friend Russia who was also playing. we should of won that game.

Amateur. Any real tyrant wouldn't be so nice as to give warnings. they would just start locking up "the spies". This guy is an attention whore looking for his 5 minutes of fame.

BarkingUnicorn: lohphat: farkingismybusiness: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 485x318]
The changing of the worrd is inevitabre.

What was that?

Esperanto.  Learn it, you're going to need it.

If this does escalate, I doubt it will, but IF it does, there's going to be a lot of innocent lives lost in the process.

/sigh
//not a good way to start the day

But I agree hostilities are VERY unlikely.

Alonjar: I wonder if everyone is going to keep going "lol right.. stfu stupid fatty" until they randomly start shooting.  I forsee that as being the outcome if he truly is disillusioned (although i doubt it)

When the shooting starts I doubt very seriously that it'll be random. If the North starts it--it will be very precisely aimed to not hit anything too important (besides maybe a small patrol boat or the like). If the South starts it--it will be precisely aimed to hit whatever the threat is.

The WindowLicker: They warned the folks in SOUTH Korea to leave.  They were still welcoming tourists (and their money) to Best Korea.

All 20 of them? A crappy nuke "test" on Seoul, if it doesn't melt on the launch pad or hit China instead on the way is going to be what Putin said earlier; that it'd make Chernobyl look like a fairy land....

......and that would be the last anyone heard of North Korea.

I call it more stupid posturing as they've always done, but this kid, as probably directed by his aunt and uncle, still have that military to feed, and well.....they might die without some concessions.

bob_ross: neongoats: Summoner101: miss diminutive: spamdog: Dude, you have to have breaks between provocations otherwise people will just stop taking them seriously.

Seriously. He's turning into the boy who cried worf.

And Worf doesn't take kindly to being called so much for nothing

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What, is he just supposed to SIT there?

powhound: I've seen badges, but does fark have a significant war thread badge? Sort of like a silver star?

It's a brown star, and you already have one. Grats!

Summoner101: miss diminutive: spamdog: Dude, you have to have breaks between provocations otherwise people will just stop taking them seriously.

Seriously. He's turning into the boy who cried worf.

And Worf doesn't take kindly to being called so much for nothing

Only because news services pointed out that tourists were unaffected. When Un and his cronies start ordering a 2 year supply of booze and cavier, THEN you can start worrying.