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(The Atlantic)   "I'd been warned my whole life about homophobia, but no one ever said anything about homophobiaphobia"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 83
    More: Ironic, Jerry Falwell, Moral Majority, British literature, exact science, liberal Christian, Southern Baptist  
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8306 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 12:14 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 08:30:49 AM  
Is this the equivalent to Penthouse letters in magazines with lotsa words?
 
2013-04-08 08:51:18 AM  
That was amazing - that's how Christians who still believe homosexuality is wrong are SUPPOSED to act.
 
2013-04-08 09:31:43 AM  
Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.
 
2013-04-08 09:34:29 AM  
Yeah, no. It's nice and all that they treated you like a human being sometimes, but if you ever wanted to be public about your sexuality, or maybe have them treat you as a  normal human being, not one who is fallen but still redeemable, you wouldn't have gotten it from them. And god forbid you wanted to marry, or adopt children, or kiss your boyfriend in public.

We get that you made some nice friend and those people from Liberty aren't the horrible evil assholes that you think all your liberal friends think they are. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think you're brainwashed by them.
 
2013-04-08 10:41:02 AM  

Diogenes: Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.


Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked. Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.


Sounds to me they are full of naked guys.
 
2013-04-08 10:45:23 AM  
After a few minutes, I got out bed to get a drink, and there in the kitchen, I found my roommate Jake looking into the open refrigerator, buck naked.

Ok, right away, what the fark?  I had no interests in seeing my roommate's dongs, nor did I have any interest in letting them see mine.

Here was this conservative, pro-life, pro-marriage woman who taught lectures like "The Biblical Basis for Studying Literature," and here she was kneeling down on the floor next me, rubbing my back, and going against every stereotype I'd held about Bible-believing, right-leaning, gun-slinging Christians.

I'm still waiting for later in the story when it turns out she lead an actual crusade against him to openly humiliate him for his genetics.

Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.

What in the fark?

When people find out I underwent therapy at Jerry Falwell's Christian college, they assume I went through something like gay reparative therapy.

I think you got lucky and found someone decent, though since this is written as I'm reading, I'm still expecting all of this to backfire and lead to you being publicly shamed.  There's a reason people think that about Liberty, and other holier-than-thou Christian institutions.  It's because they do that.

Honestly kid, you got lucky.  You actually found people willing to help get you out of the 18 previous years of mindfarking the Church gave you and straightened you out, so to speak.  But brushing things like this off:

For every few really cool students on campus, there's always that one jerk who regularly posts statuses on Facebook about how great Chick-Fil-A is, and how that Muslim Obama wants to turn everyone into a Sodomite.

After all, he did blame 9/11 on the gays. He did make that remark during service about "even barnyard animals knowing better than that." He also did make certain to ban Soul Force, a gay-affirming Christian ministry, from stepping foot on our campus.


Is frankly insane.  These are exactly the things that drive people like you to kill themselves.  Just because thinks worked out for you doesn't mean people and statements like these drive hundreds of people to suicide every year, because your good, wholesome Christians turned into hatemongers the second you stepped away from their perfect constructed worlds.  Pretending they aren't there is far more dangerous because they do damage every day.
 
2013-04-08 12:10:49 PM  
FTFA: After a few minutes, I got out bed to get a drink, and there in the kitchen, I found my roommate Jake looking into the open refrigerator, buck naked.

"Oh, hey, man," he said when he saw me. "Midnight snack?" he asked.

"Yeah, I just can't sleep."

"I hear ya," he said, and bent over to grab some jelly from the bottom shelf.

And as I looked at his perfectly formed, muscular ass
...

i249.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-08 12:15:27 PM  

gilgigamesh: Diogenes: Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.

Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked. Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.

Sounds to me they are full of naked guys.


I *knew* I should've gone to Liberty!

:(
 
2013-04-08 12:18:05 PM  
Wally: Doctor, why do those types keep thinking that I'm one of them?

Psychiatrist: Well, Wally, because you are one of them. You are gay. You are gay. You are a homosexual. The opposite of straight, you're gay. I know it. Your family knows it. DOGS know it! Everyone seems to know it except you.
 
2013-04-08 12:18:40 PM  
Maybe it's time to stop using a completely inaccurate psychological term for people just because everyone parrots it.
 
2013-04-08 12:19:35 PM  
This is all kinds of awesome:  Not that they would judge you (not all of them) but they would pray for you, usually publicly

Matthew 5:5:  "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Funny that this little bit comes just before one of the most mindlessly over-recited parts of the Bible of all time.

I'm so glad I don't mingle with that crowd any more.

OK, done being judge-y. :P
 
2013-04-08 12:19:42 PM  
"Out of all the colleges in the world, why did I pick this one?"

I breifly went to Lynchburg college down the street from this place and I was constantly wanting to ask the people from there I met this exact question.
(I was also asking myself that of LC after a year.)
 
2013-04-08 12:21:34 PM  

GAT_00: Is frankly insane. These are exactly the things that drive people like you to kill themselves.


Sadly, it's that kind of doublethink and cognitive dissonance one goes through as they try to get from point A (closeted freak) to point B (some semblance of decent mental health).
 
2013-04-08 12:24:51 PM  
Well, it was mighty Christian of them to refrain from raining down abuse on you.
 
2013-04-08 12:43:18 PM  
Subby fails for perpetuating the use of that etymological trainwreck "homophobia." Unless you really mean "fear of the same thing," don't use this term. It mixes Greek and Latin roots, and the contemptibility of this sin is beyond expression. If you want to use a term to express fear and hatred of homosexuals, I suggest "dysipsisexualism." Latin roots, prefices, and suffices throughout.

/Also hate when people say "Holy Scripture.
//Either say "Sacred Scripture" or "Holy Writ." Don't mix Latin and Anglo-Saxon adjectives and nouns, you stupid animals.
 
2013-04-08 12:45:05 PM  
Liberty sounds gay.
 
2013-04-08 01:03:54 PM  
FTA: "They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during 'Man Games' on Thursday nights."

That sounds...rather gay. Also, I'd love to know who the hell walks around their apartment naked at midnight for what I presume to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

/Because I'd marry him
//In a heartbeat
 
2013-04-08 01:04:05 PM  
FTFA: "I've been struggling with homosex..."

Use more lube?
 
2013-04-08 01:05:40 PM  

blockhouse: Subby fails for perpetuating the use of that etymological trainwreck "homophobia." Unless you really mean "fear of the same thing," don't use this term. It mixes Greek and Latin roots, and the contemptibility of this sin is beyond expression. If you want to use a term to express fear and hatred of homosexuals, I suggest "dysipsisexualism." Latin roots, prefices, and suffices throughout.



We could always use a much simpler word, bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 01:17:09 PM  

mongbiohazard: We could always use a much simpler word, bigotry.


"You are not 'homophobic'. You are an asshole."

// titty sprinkles
 
2013-04-08 01:20:28 PM  

maram500: FTA: "They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during 'Man Games' on Thursday nights."

That sounds...rather gay. Also, I'd love to know who the hell walks around their apartment naked at midnight for what I presume to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

/Because I'd marry him
//In a heartbeat


Well, I've been known to do it more than a couple times.  But there a few problems:

1) I'm not gay
2) I'm already married
3) No one wants to see me naked.  A sight of me nude would be enough to make people snap and spend the rest of their lives clubbing elephant seals and manatees.
 
2013-04-08 01:30:40 PM  

Rincewind53: We get that you made some nice friend and those people from Liberty aren't the horrible evil assholes that you think all your liberal friends think they are. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think you're brainwashed by them.


Interesting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

As someone above pointed out, this is how Christains are supposed to address homosexuality: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." and all that.

It's kinda sad that you can't just accept that not every christian is a hateful homophobe.
 
2013-04-08 01:44:51 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: nteresting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

As someone above pointed out, this is how Christains are supposed to address homosexuality: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." and all that.

It's kinda sad that you can't just accept that not every christian is a hateful homophobe.


Except that's not what I said. And I  do reject his idea that people holding hateful beliefs should be embraced because they have the common courtesy not to scream those beliefs in the faces of others. Mike Huckabee thinks that gay people are going to hell and that equates them to dog-f*ckers. Should I not judge him for that, simply because he says it in a calm voice and is perfectly kind to other people's faces?

Love the sinner, hate the sin, is a ridiculous concept when you consider that they love the sinner, then go out and actively campaign against allowing the sinner any freedom to sin as they please, and when their "love" conceals the fact that they do not wish the law to allow him equality.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:00 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Rincewind53: We get that you made some nice friend and those people from Liberty aren't the horrible evil assholes that you think all your liberal friends think they are. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think you're brainwashed by them.

Interesting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

As someone above pointed out, this is how Christains are supposed to address homosexuality: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." and all that.

It's kinda sad that you can't just accept that not every christian is a hateful homophobe.


Not all Christians are the same but Liberty is a Christian university and this is from TFA and their own code:

"According to the Liberty Way, homosexual behavior was strictly prohibited, as were all sexual relationships outside of marriage."

The author was disallowed from any and all romance and love in his life.  That's not love, it's cruelty.  And it's not Christian.  As John Shore put it:

When you tell a gay person to "resist" being gay, what you are really telling them - what you really  mean - is for them to be celibate.

What you are truly and actually saying is that you want them to condemn themselves to a life devoid of the kind of enduring, romantic, partner-to-partner love that all people, Christians included, understand as just about the best part of being alive.

Be alone, you're demanding. Live alone. Don't hold anyone's hand. Don't snuggle on your couch with anyone. Don't cuddle up with anyone at  night before you fall asleep. Don't have anyone to chat with over coffee in the morning.

Do not bind your life to that of another. Live your whole life without knowing that joy, that sharing, that peace.

Just say "no" to love.

Be alone. Live alone. Die alone.

The "sinful temptation" that Christians are forever urging LGBT people to resist is love.

Being, of course, the  one thing Jesus was most clear about wanting his followers to extend to others.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:15 PM  

blockhouse: Subby fails for perpetuating the use of that etymological trainwreck "homophobia." Unless you really mean "fear of the same thing," don't use this term. It mixes Greek and Latin roots, and the contemptibility of this sin is beyond expression. If you want to use a term to express fear and hatred of homosexuals, I suggest "dysipsisexualism." Latin roots, prefices, and suffices throughout.

/Also hate when people say "Holy Scripture.
//Either say "Sacred Scripture" or "Holy Writ." Don't mix Latin and Anglo-Saxon adjectives and nouns, you stupid animals.


"Polyamory" still sounds better than polyfilia or multiamory.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:53 PM  

xanadian: gilgigamesh: Diogenes: Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.

Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked. Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.

Sounds to me they are full of naked guys.

I *knew* I should've gone to Liberty!

:(


Here's what I don't get: if you are a young gay dude playing "slap and tickle" with a bunch of hot young naked guys, how do you not get ragingly aroused?

I'm in my 40s, and I have to wear a loose bathing suit to the beach on the off-chance that I am going to wind up next to some young shapely thing in a bikini. I mean, that shiat is involuntary. I'd think that would be a huge red flag, so to speak. And if you were a guy trying to stay on the down low, you'd need to keep out of those situations as much as possible for fear of being discovered.

Or maybe its just boners all around as they are all prancing around naked? Someone help me out here.
 
2013-04-08 01:49:58 PM  
BojanglesPaladin:
Interesting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

These nice people seem to happily work within a framework which declares that people will be punished in Hell for the way they were born.  There are no two ways about it.  They seem nice in the story, and probably never spit on gays or call them nasty names.  But under ALL their niceness is the assumption that the author is "struggling with" homosexuality... not struggling to embrace it as a normal part of his identity, but to overcome it.  Which is bullshiat, and is what DOES drive thousands of less-fortunate people to suicide or self-harm ALL THE TIME.

If you replace "gay" with "[visible minority of your choice]" in even the most "loving" love-the-sinner ideology, it becomes glaringly obvious how patronizing, detestable, and NOT loving it is, regardless of how pleasantly it is presented.
 
2013-04-08 01:53:00 PM  

Rincewind53: BojanglesPaladin: nteresting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

As someone above pointed out, this is how Christains are supposed to address homosexuality: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." and all that.

It's kinda sad that you can't just accept that not every christian is a hateful homophobe.

Except that's not what I said. And I  do reject his idea that people holding hateful beliefs should be embraced because they have the common courtesy not to scream those beliefs in the faces of others. Mike Huckabee thinks that gay people are going to hell and that equates them to dog-f*ckers. Should I not judge him for that, simply because he says it in a calm voice and is perfectly kind to other people's faces?

Love the sinner, hate the sin, is a ridiculous concept when you consider that they love the sinner, then go out and actively campaign against allowing the sinner any freedom to sin as they please, and when their "love" conceals the fact that they do not wish the law to allow him equality.


What do you have against dog f*ckers, I'd like to know.
/It's important.
 
2013-04-08 01:54:49 PM  

Lumpmoose: BojanglesPaladin: Rincewind53: We get that you made some nice friend and those people from Liberty aren't the horrible evil assholes that you think all your liberal friends think they are. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think you're brainwashed by them.

Interesting that rather than accept a first-hand account of individual acceptance and tolerance, you feel that he must be wrong about his own experience, and even brainwashed rather than accept something contridictory to your prejudiced stereotypes.

As someone above pointed out, this is how Christains are supposed to address homosexuality: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." and all that.

It's kinda sad that you can't just accept that not every christian is a hateful homophobe.

Not all Christians are the same but Liberty is a Christian university and this is from TFA and their own code:

"According to the Liberty Way, homosexual behavior was strictly prohibited, as were all sexual relationships outside of marriage."

The author was disallowed from any and all romance and love in his life.  That's not love, it's cruelty.  And it's not Christian.  As John Shore put it:

When you tell a gay person to "resist" being gay, what you are really telling them - what you really  mean - is for them to be celibate.

What you are truly and actually saying is that you want them to condemn themselves to a life devoid of the kind of enduring, romantic, partner-to-partner love that all people, Christians included, understand as just about the best part of being alive.

Be alone, you're demanding. Live alone. Don't hold anyone's hand. Don't snuggle on your couch with anyone. Don't cuddle up with anyone at  night before you fall asleep. Don't have anyone to chat with over coffee in the morning.

Do not bind your life to that of another. Live your whole life without knowing that joy, that sharing, that peace.

Just say "no" to love.

Be alone. Live alone. Die alone.

The "sinful temptation" that Christians are forever urging L ...


They didn't cut his dick off, moron.  You don't think he signed the paper or something?  Don't you believe people should be allowed to make their own choices, even if you wouldn't choose the same thing?
 
2013-04-08 01:58:38 PM  

Shadowknight: maram500: FTA: "They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during 'Man Games' on Thursday nights."

That sounds...rather gay. Also, I'd love to know who the hell walks around their apartment naked at midnight for what I presume to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

/Because I'd marry him
//In a heartbeat

Well, I've been known to do it more than a couple times.  But there a few problems:

1) I'm not gay
2) I'm already married
3) No one wants to see me naked.  A sight of me nude would be enough to make people snap and spend the rest of their lives clubbing elephant seals and manatees.


EIP
 
2013-04-08 01:59:42 PM  
I've been onto Liberty campus and saw countless paintings, memorials, alters and even a gigantic 100 foot statue of Jerry Falwell.

/not really
//but Liberty prefers Jerry over Jesus
 
2013-04-08 02:06:02 PM  

Wangiss: They didn't cut his dick off, moron.  You don't think he signed the paper or something?  Don't you believe people should be allowed to make their own choices, even if you wouldn't choose the same thing?


People absolutely get to make their own choices.  The choices Liberty and fundamentalist churches provides to gay people are:

1) Struggle with homosexuality your entire life.
2) "Convert" to heterosexuality (see #1).
3) Become celibate.
4) Leave.

The author chose #4.  But they'll love you through it all, I guess.
 
2013-04-08 02:06:34 PM  

Lumpmoose: The author was disallowed from any and all romance and love in his life. That's not love, it's cruelty. And it's not Christian. As John Shore put it:

When you tell a gay person to "resist" being gay, what you are really telling them - what you really mean - is for them to be celibate.


Um, LU tells all students to be celibate unless they're married. It's still an asinine rule (especially for 18-20 year olds to be expected to follow), but it's not like there's special no-nos if it's a clam bake or sausage party.
 
2013-04-08 02:17:11 PM  
Dr Dreidel:
Um, LU tells all students to be celibate unless they're married. It's still an asinine rule (especially for 18-20 year olds to be expected to follow)

It's a great way to control people: set a rule that is ~ impossible to follow, but with relatively light punishment, so that almost everyone is an offender, eager to make up for their transgressions*.  If you were run out of Liberty on a rail for minor violations of the honor code, there'd be a lot of bitter ex-Liberty students saying "fark those guys" and seriously questioning their faith.  And about five people still attending the school, which is no way to make a profit.

* Christianity in general: you WILL sin, but as long as you crawl like a whipped dog begging for forgiveness, God will spare you.
 
2013-04-08 02:22:41 PM  

maram500: That sounds...rather gay. Also, I'd love to know who the hell walks around their apartment naked at midnight for what I presume to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

/Because I'd marry him
//In a heartbeat


I walk around naked making snacks at midnight.

I ain't the marrying type.  Feel free to come by for a sandwich sometime, though....
 
2013-04-08 02:29:42 PM  

blockhouse: Subby fails for perpetuating the use of that etymological trainwreck "homophobia." Unless you really mean "fear of the same thing," don't use this term. It mixes Greek and Latin roots, and the contemptibility of this sin is beyond expression. If you want to use a term to express fear and hatred of homosexuals, I suggest "dysipsisexualism." Latin roots, prefices, and suffices throughout.

/Also hate when people say "Holy Scripture.
//Either say "Sacred Scripture" or "Holy Writ." Don't mix Latin and Anglo-Saxon adjectives and nouns, you stupid animals.


I know!  If people did that, we'd end up with more than one language in the world!!
 
2013-04-08 03:02:51 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Lumpmoose: The author was disallowed from any and all romance and love in his life. That's not love, it's cruelty. And it's not Christian. As John Shore put it:

When you tell a gay person to "resist" being gay, what you are really telling them - what you really mean - is for them to be celibate.

Um, LU tells all students to be celibate unless they're married. It's still an asinine rule (especially for 18-20 year olds to be expected to follow), but it's not like there's special no-nos if it's a clam bake or sausage party.


When the churches on campus start marrying same-sex couples, I'll gladly call it equal opportunity stupidity.
 
2013-04-08 03:23:43 PM  
Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked.

Jesus. Liberty University has to be the gayest university in the country.
 
2013-04-08 04:03:07 PM  
If Franklin D. Roosevelt was alive today, he would say:

"There is nothing to fear except homophobia itself"
 
2013-04-08 04:25:08 PM  

xanadian: gilgigamesh: Diogenes: Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.

Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked. Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.

Sounds to me they are full of naked guys.

I *knew* I should've gone to Liberty!

:(


Obligatory South Park gay sex orgy pile.
 
2013-04-08 04:27:28 PM  

Do you know the way to Mordor: If Franklin D. Roosevelt was alive today, he would say:

"There is nothing to fear except homophobia itself"


He would also be in favor of involuntary sterilization of gays, so there's that.
 
2013-04-08 04:38:23 PM  

Rincewind53: Except that's not what I said. And I do reject his idea that people holding hateful beliefs should be embraced because they have the common courtesy not to scream those beliefs in the faces of others


Again, rather than accepting this person's account of people whom he knows well (and better than you or I) who WERE accepting of him as a person, you insist that they secretely hate him, and he's just too brainwashed to see it.

/also, Mike Huckabee is not mentioned in this article, so your opinion of him has no real bearing here.

RinceWind53/No Such Agency: These nice people seem to happily work within a framework which declares that people will be punished in Hell for the way they were born.

That is a mischaricterization of Christian thought (at least as I understand it to be officially stated by most denominations). As I understand it, this is what Christians ACTUALLY BELIEVE:
Sin (whatever sin - whether stealing, mouthing off to your mom, taking the lord's name in vain, fornication or homosexuality) is a failing that if left unrepentant can condemn you to hell. But through "God's grace and love and the acceptance into your heart of Jesus Christ your lord and savior", you can ask for redemption and forgiveness, and if it is true and heartfelt, all your sins will be forgiven. You are not condemend to hell for how you were born, but rather for your failure to resist temptation and sinful actions. Just as you are expected to resist the urge to stick your dick in a hot cheerleader's cooch, you are expected to resist the urge to stick your dick in the quarterback's bum. It's all "sins of the flesh" that unrepentant sinful behavior will condemn you to hell. And "living in sin" applies to both openly gay couples as well as straight couples. You and I may not buy into this, but I think it is important to correctly state the opposition viewpoint, and address it instead of a paper tiger charicature of it. Sure, there are Phelps crew assholes, but 99.999% of Christians aren't Phelps Crew assholes. They are good and decent Americans who see things differently.

It is not particularly difficult to grasp that just as everyone can not condone adultery without condemning and hating adulterers, Christians can love and accept homosexuals without condoning homosexuality. You may not believe that there is anything whatsoever wrong with homosexuality, adultery, fornication, or anything considered by Christianity, Judiasm, Islam and a number of other religions as being a "sin of the flesh", and that's your call.

But that difference of opinion does not make your viewpoint any more valid than the considered opinion of most major religions and thousands of years of convention and tradition, nor does thousands of years and innumerable theologians make their opinion automatically valid.

And it is worth noting that the campus policy is against ALL sexual activity out of wedlock, consistant with commonly held Christian belief and morality as one would expect at a Christian university. I'm sure  there are students being counciled to resist the urge to fark their girlfriend and stop masturbating so much too.

Sooner or later you have to acknowledge that failure to adequately support every aspect of "the gay agenda" is not the same thing as bigotry, and that rational, kind people have a legitimate and valid reason to oppose behavior they earnestly believe to be in error. Just as you have a legitimate reason to support behavior you think is perfectly acceptable. But one cannot expect that people who have a deeply held personal and religious conviction against something should actively condone it to accomodate aspects that infring on their own society.  It is one thing to accept a fellow human being, sinner though he may be, since we are all of us sinners. It is quite another to confer a new legal status based on actively engaging in what Christians believe to be sinful behavior.

If your best argument is to declare anyone who fails to disagrees a homophobic bigot, then you don't have a very compelling argument, and you won't change many minds.
 
2013-04-08 04:59:01 PM  

gilgigamesh: xanadian: gilgigamesh: Diogenes: Everywhere I turned there were hot guys: in the dorms, in the showers, in the pool, in the gym. They ate with me, and studied with me, and wrestled with me during "Man Games" on Thursday nights.

The dorm closets at Liberty are surprisingly roomy.

Before I moved off-campus I lived with the coolest group of guys in perhaps the coolest and most esteemed hall on campus: E-6. When we weren't jumping off the James River Bridge naked, we were four-wheeling naked. And when we weren't playing naked "Man Games" on Thursday night (which were a two-hour series of homoerotic slap-and-tickle games), we were sneaking into the East Campus pool after hours... naked. Everyone on campus loved our guys because they were cool; I loved them because they were constantly naked.

Sounds to me they are full of naked guys.

I *knew* I should've gone to Liberty!

:(

Here's what I don't get: if you are a young gay dude playing "slap and tickle" with a bunch of hot young naked guys, how do you not get ragingly aroused?

I'm in my 40s, and I have to wear a loose bathing suit to the beach on the off-chance that I am going to wind up next to some young shapely thing in a bikini. I mean, that shiat is involuntary. I'd think that would be a huge red flag, so to speak. And if you were a guy trying to stay on the down low, you'd need to keep out of those situations as much as possible for fear of being discovered.

Or maybe its just boners all around as they are all prancing around naked? Someone help me out here.


Fear.
 
2013-04-08 05:18:36 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: But one cannot expect that people who have a deeply held personal and religious conviction against something should actively condone it to accomodate aspects that infring on their own society.  It is one thing to accept a fellow human being, sinner though he may be, since we are all of us sinners. It is quite another to confer a new legal status based on actively engaging in what Christians believe to be sinful behavior.


A church has never been forced to marry Jews, Muslims or atheists in this country, just as they never will forced to marry same-sex couples.  On the other hand, some churches want to marry same-sex couples and are not granted that freedom by their government.  It's illogical to allow Jews to legally marry in synagogues but wield your voting power to prevent same-sex couples from legally marrying in gay-affirming churches.

If your best argument is to declare anyone who fails to disagrees a homophobic bigot, then you don't have a very compelling argument, and you won't change many minds.

The conversation is basically done.  One side uses secular arguments; the other side uses theological arguments.   Unless you haven't personally met gay people yet, chances are you will never be convinced. But statistics show that your kids are already convinced.  So it kinda doesn't matter.
 
2013-04-08 05:34:30 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Um, LU tells all students to be celibate unless they're married. It's still an asinine rule (especially for 18-20 year olds to be expected to follow), but it's not like there's special no-nos if it's a clam bake or sausage party.


Wouldn't it be wacky if those two got mixed-up somehow?

"Hey, you got your clams in my sausage party!"
"Well, you got your sausage in my clam bake!"

It's two great tastes that taste great together!
 
2013-04-08 05:57:01 PM  

Lumpmoose: On the other hand, some churches want to marry same-sex couples and are not granted that freedom by their government.


When people say things like this, it just shows how little some of the people banging their fists about this issue actually understand about it.

They most certainly are. Many do. I personally know three married gay couples (one now seperated). Churches are free to marry whomever they wish.

What you are talking about is legal recognition from the government for marital status, which has nothing to do with Churches, and does not even need to involve any religion whatsoever. In the overwhelming majority of states, state and local governments will only grant married status to couples who meet certain criteria arrived at by community standards. So in some states, you cannot marry your first cousin, but in some you can marry your cousin, but not your parent or your uncle or aunt. In most states you cannot marry a sibling. In all states you must be of a certain age, and some states allow a younger age with parental consent. Many states prohibit severely mentally deficient people from marrying. And with only a few exceptions, most states will not confer legal marital status for same sex couples.

But a Church can marry two gay sisters with severe mental retardation if it so chooses. They just won't be granted legal status as a married couple.
 
2013-04-08 05:59:03 PM  

Lumpmoose: One side uses secular arguments; the other side uses theological arguments.


Also, it is worth noting that there are plenty of non-theological arguments against extending legal marital status as well.
 
2013-04-08 06:12:16 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Sooner or later you have to acknowledge that failure to adequately support every aspect of "the gay agenda" is not the same thing as bigotry, and that rational, kind people have a legitimate and valid reason to oppose behavior they earnestly believe to be in error.


No, I do not have to acknowledge any such thing.   "I earnestly believe this behavior to be in error"  is not a legitimate or valid reason to oppose behavior, if by "oppose" you mean "attempt to criminalize, or prevent from becoming legal."

"I can establish to a degree of scientific certainty that this behavior causes harm, either to society as a whole or to individuals in society,"  on the other hand, -is- a legitimate and valid reason to oppose behavior.   The burden lies with those opposed to homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage to demonstrate harm, failing that, there is no legitimate or valid reason to oppose it.  And, no, "God says it is wrong" is absolutely not a valid argument when debating public policy.

Again, it depends very much on what one means by "oppose."   What you believe in your heart, or what you say to your congregation inside the church or temple you attend is your own business.  The moment you step out into the public sphere and try to influence law or public policy, however, it becomes OUR business and we WILL label that CORRECTLY as bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 06:12:58 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Lumpmoose: One side uses secular arguments; the other side uses theological arguments.

Also, it is worth noting that there are plenty of non-theological arguments against extending legal marital status as well.


Really?  Name one.
 
2013-04-08 06:33:05 PM  

ciberido: "I earnestly believe this behavior to be in error" is not a legitimate or valid reason to oppose behavior


That's pretty much the ONLY valid reason to oppose something. Because you believe it is wrong.

ciberido: The moment you step out into the public sphere and try to influence law or public policy, however, it becomes OUR business and we WILL label that CORRECTLY as bigotry.


See. that's my point. I may not agree with Christian opposition to gay marriage, but I don't consider them all to be bigots just for having an opposing viewpoint. Especially when that viewpoint credibly comes from deeply held religious conviction. Here in America, we respect people's deeply held religious viewpoints, even if we do not share them.

ciberido: Really? Name one.

One: State and local governments will only grant married status to couples who meet certain criteria arrived at by community standards. Homosexuality is not generally considered to meet these criteria, and it is well within the authority of the duly elected representatives of that constituancy to offer the elevated status to a narrower segmnent for specific purposes. Marriage is a licensed activity, and with all licensed activities there are limitations made by the governing body. If we can say that a brother and sister cannot be granted legal marital status, we can say that a same sex couple cannot ne granted legal marital status.
 
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