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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 678
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14321 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 10:54:42 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.


Ok, I forgot about him. My point stands. A single incident does not compare to millions of people cheering for terrorism and giving moral support and encouragement to suicide bombers and other jihadists.
 
2013-04-08 10:54:56 AM  

NostroZ: Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well". Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion


What the hell kind of pansy-ass trolling is this? At least throw in a "Atheism is a religion", or a non-sequitur about Stalin, or something - this weaksauce you've got going right now just isn't going to cut it.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:37 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:46 AM  

Voiceofreason01: There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


No kidding, I've seen jerks everywhere in my life, regardless of their beliefs.

They all share a few things... one was that they always believed themselves "right" and justified, or just didn't care as it was their way or you were their enemy, and another thing was that they were jerks.

The whole ego thing that humans have is quite powerful.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:31 AM  

Biological Ali: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:51 AM  

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.
 
2013-04-08 11:03:06 AM  
For the record, I'm "against" all religion, not just Islam.  If you keep it in your bedroom, I could care less, it's when you whip it out in public that we will have problems.

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2013-04-08 11:05:15 AM  

Biological Ali: I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


There's a difference between tolerance and unacceptable behavior.  Sadly, people tend to adapt some point of view that can make something that for many is unacceptable, but for them, it's "normal".

Such a woman's treatment in some countries.  But the reality, without religion, in your very own country, some men would still/are still abusive toward women and only "fell remorse" if they go to jail for it.  No jail, they'd continue, and many return to their ways after being released.

How's racism going in the world? Do people keep their prejudice, do some act on purpose to feed it?

Do some people of a race cling to being part of their "culture", and claim intolerance when someone doesn't agree with their practices?

In my life, I've seen "minorities" be more racist, use it as a card, than others would care about race altogether.

I've seen jerks (major ones) claim "racism" because they were being jerks and told to stop.

Not really any difference in the essence of the topic.
 
2013-04-08 11:05:38 AM  

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.

Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.


I've never quite understood that. Then again, I pride myself on not identifying with Dawkins' opinions on quite a few things.

A shame, really. Guy has some valid points on evolution.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:06 AM  

vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.


You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:39 AM  
s2s2s2:
Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.

so religion is any group or organization or person or ideology that you disagree with or don't like?

/your definitions are all askew but it sounds like it's not religion you have a problem with but fanaticism. Which is a very different thing.
 
2013-04-08 11:09:47 AM  

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.


Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!
 
2013-04-08 11:09:55 AM  
I'm an atheist, and I don't hate Islam.  I don't hate any religion, nor the people who practice them.  Atheism =/= anti-theism.  I think a lot of people get that confused.  You can be both an atheist and an anti-theist, but they're not synonymous.  There's a lot of things about most organized religions I don't agree with, and a lot of things I'd like to see changed, but it's not my place to tell other people how to live, or that they're stupid for believing something I don't.....and vice versa.
 
2013-04-08 11:10:14 AM  

s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.


Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?
 
2013-04-08 11:12:18 AM  

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.


Religion "works?"  In what way?
 
2013-04-08 11:14:42 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?


It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.
 
2013-04-08 11:15:53 AM  

vactech: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!


And prior to that there was the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Look man, religion exploded in Egypt around 4100 years ago and so did human civilization. Writing. Farming. Mathematics. Dentistry. Elaborate burial ritual, recreational games like bowling, hell BEER WAS INVENTED in Egypt around that time!

Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.
 
2013-04-08 11:16:20 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?


In some cases it has a kick-ass art collection and rakes in millions of dollars without paying taxes.
 
2013-04-08 11:16:36 AM  

RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??


The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.
 
2013-04-08 11:17:05 AM  

Sid_6.7: I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with Islam. Overall, I think it's a really neat thing, but not for me. I do have a problem with anyone claiming I should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs. Or, rather, it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes steps to try and force me to follow their religious beliefs, then I have a problem.

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?

Please, explain, how liking the taste of an herb makes someone a douchebag? I could say the same about people classifying others based upon their enjoyment of a single plant.

/potheads, for example


I got Some awesome tomatoes that I started in ceramic pots with potting soil.  Kiss my ripe reds ones if you don't like it.  Even better, slice one up for a BLT with salt, pepper, and mayo.
 
2013-04-08 11:18:27 AM  

NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


See, now this is some great stuff. What it lacks in believability it more than makes up for in sheer hilarity.

I give it 7/10.
 
2013-04-08 11:19:57 AM  

Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.


Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.
 
2013-04-08 11:20:51 AM  

ciberido: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.


So it's like church, but with none of the redemption or awesome food afterwards and all of the effort in getting somewhere when you just want to sleep.

I thought they were supposed to be smarter and more logic-driven than us, man. Reading that was like having a discussion with my Jewish girlfriend's dad about how he buys lottery tickets.
 
2013-04-08 11:21:59 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: s2s2s2: HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.

"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.

at least you had the decency to put the second christians in quotes and use a small c (i am assuming to indicate they are not really Christians).


and she's bu-eeeeee-ying a stairway to heaven...
 
2013-04-08 11:22:16 AM  

Rabbitgod: Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.

Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.


I didn't say religion alone could guide us. I'm just saying that this stuff that Harris and Dawkins push, where science is the preferable moral source, isn't exactly true. In fact, it's been the exact opposite in some profound incidents.
 
2013-04-08 11:22:35 AM  

NostroZ: I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


This. I'm not sure I agree but the history of religion and religious thought and the evolution of the modern forms of the Abrahamic religions is incredibly interesting.

/and unarguably has been a tremendous force in shaping the modern world
 
2013-04-08 11:23:06 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper


"Feed my Frankenstein!"
 
2013-04-08 11:24:41 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses. Here's hoping.


nah... that's why the world is the way it is... with people stuck believing that their beliefs are the right ones.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:00 AM  

The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?


Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:31 AM  
There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

/I am not agnostic.
//I really am denying the existence of deities.
///I am a gnostic athiest by default as I am not theist for sure and I am not agnostic leaving only one option.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:33 AM  

Sid_6.7: Doktor_Zhivago: If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .

I ignore people quite infrequently, usually it's only automatic if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.


Mmmmmmm..... Islam is not a race.
 
2013-04-08 11:26:28 AM  

Biological Ali: s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.

Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?


Trololololololololo...
 
2013-04-08 11:26:32 AM  

dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

/I am not agnostic.
//I really am denying the existence of deities.
///I am a gnostic athiest by default as I am not theist for sure and I am not agnostic leaving only one option.


That's a pretty big claim to make, man. It's cool, though.
 
2013-04-08 11:26:40 AM  
Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion

LOLWUT?
 
2013-04-08 11:26:45 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .


Moo Slim.  Whats your problem?  They make good cheese!
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-08 11:28:24 AM  

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.

Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)


Well then you obviously haven't spoken to them about what they believe. Some Unitarians believe in god, a lot are atheist, a lot more fall into the Spinoza's god territory.

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

Yes, but it is you who is claiming that all Unitarians believe in a god of some kind, and if you're going to talk about a group of people and what they believe in, then it is usually helpful to actually know something about what they believe in -cause then you'd know what you're talking about, and that's always a good thing.

More importantly...can you refute it?

Refute it?  well I can point to countless instances in history of stark-raving crazy ideologues with self-glorified crusades who felt that the most important thing to do was to attack the moderates within some ideological window in order to create a wedge with which to push their own group think onto the whole. Being more radical doesn't make you more right.
 
2013-04-08 11:28:53 AM  

Lorelle: doglover: It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?

Gosh, that sounds good.

lumiere: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?

I like parsley, too. Horseradish is an abomination, though.


Wasabi me?  Same ol', wasabi you?
 
2013-04-08 11:29:01 AM  

NostroZ: Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.


Are you telling me that my life doesn't have purpose?
 
2013-04-08 11:30:42 AM  
Here to throw my hat in with the Atheists, but I've got nothing new and snarky to say that hasn't already been said.

I would be interested in a study of various religions though, to determine how to get them to stop having such a negative social impact.  Jews and Christians had a leadership that promoted horrific violence, for example, and now they're not as bad.  Scientology is pretty terrible, and I can accept that a minority - but significant and vocal extremist minority with the implicit approval of a significant subset of the moderates - of Muslims are also horrible.  There's dozens more examples.

Is it some sort of lifecyle-of-religion thing, where they go through phases and become less awful?  Even if the catholic church was deliberately hiding their many, many kiddy diddlers, it's at least a bit better than large-scale wars and inquisitions.   Do religions have to 'grow up' ?

Don't get me wrong, I still think their existence itself causes the retardation of the progress of humankind as a whole, but I think not enough effort has been spent on legitimately determining a solution to the problem.  Religion is too built in to humans to just go away because it doesn't make sense - we need to figure out how to properly neuter it while we're waiting for it to fade in importance.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:03 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people


I know!  Always pushing to have their organization's views codified into law thereby restricting the rights of others... What jerks!
 
2013-04-08 11:31:36 AM  

dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

 Your father did not have to prove to you that there is a God.

Your grandfather did not have to prove to you that there is a God.
Your great-great-great-grand-parents did not need to prove to you there is a God.

It's better to believe in a God and be wrong than to not believe and be damned!
This is Pascal's Argument:   Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:48 AM  

Marine1: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?

It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.


That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:53 AM  

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!

And prior to that there was the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Look man, religion exploded in Egypt around 4100 years ago and so did human civilization. Writing. Farming. Mathematics. Dentistry. Elaborate burial ritual, recreational games like bowling, hell BEER WAS INVENTED in Egypt around that time!

Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


Look man, I'm telling you we are on the same page.   I just think we are at odds about our historical facts.

See, before the Code of Hummus, it was a brain eating, Atheist utopia.  Then, through the power of religion humans developed farming, a subsitute for brain protein.  Everything was fine until 4000 years later when Stalin came and reignited the flames of Atheism.  Brain eating was up 30%.  Fortunately , in the mid 80's, Rocky Balboa was challenged to a boxing fight with Stalin's prize fighter Ivan Drago to settle the matter.  Things looked bleak, but what is not widely known is that Rocky had a secret White House meeting with Ronald Reagen who gave Rocky the stratagy needed to win.  And peace was restored.
 
2013-04-08 11:33:25 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Marine1: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?

It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.


I'm not saying the outcome is always desirable... but it does get people to do things. I mean, that's all you hear from anti-theists.
 
2013-04-08 11:35:39 AM  

NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.


I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.
 
2013-04-08 11:35:50 AM  

SpikeStrip: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I was referring to the atheists.
(cman's comment - then the thread got hijacked by the cilantro comments)

ffs it was a baseketball reference holy shiat some of you are sensitive


I love a good game of hoops with friends on a Saturday morning, but just because I use a body wash with Shea Butter and shaving cream with Menthol doesn't give you grounds to bust my chops over it, meanie!
 
2013-04-08 11:37:49 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.


Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.
 
2013-04-08 11:38:12 AM  

quietwalker: I would be interested in a study of various religions though, to determine how to get them to stop having such a negative social impact. Jews and Christians had a leadership that promoted horrific violence, for example, and now they're not as bad. Scientology is pretty terrible, and I can accept that a minority - but significant and vocal extremist minority with the implicit approval of a significant subset of the moderates - of Muslims are also horrible. There's dozens more examples.


Well, when people say things like "Christianity today is better off than Islam", they're really only talking about Christianity in North America and Europe (and to some extent South America). Christianity in Africa (places like Uganda etc.) is pretty much on par with any stereotypically bad picture of Islam in the Middle East.
 
2013-04-08 11:39:15 AM  

staplermofo: For the love of the absence of a higher power, would you farkmothers trim your farkingmother quotes down?


Hell, or possibly Heck, no.  I got a rapier in each hand am set to verbally swashbuckle sht shiznit out of this thread.  Game on Zorro.

/Your move.
 
2013-04-08 11:39:15 AM  

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.



You're starting from a faulty premise, and everything that is developed from that premise is likewise faulty.
 
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