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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 724
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14313 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-07 11:50:17 PM
Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?
 
2013-04-07 11:51:29 PM
Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.
 
2013-04-07 11:53:26 PM
Who the screaming fark cares?
Apatheism wins again.
 
2013-04-07 11:57:23 PM
What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.
 
2013-04-08 12:02:41 AM
Bigotry takes all forms.

Hate is still hate.
 
2013-04-08 12:02:51 AM
That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.
 
2013-04-08 12:06:06 AM
That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.
 
2013-04-08 12:07:20 AM

propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.


The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry
 
2013-04-08 12:08:14 AM
What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?
 
2013-04-08 12:11:04 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


Douchebag?
 
2013-04-08 12:11:06 AM

Lorelle: OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


Did you tell an adult? Oh you're a girl, nevermind.
 
2013-04-08 12:16:40 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


Wrong thread, dude!

It's Messican.

Mugato: Did you tell an adult? Oh you're a girl, nevermind.


The parish I attended as a child was, for a while, home to one of SoCal's most notorious pedo-priests.

http://documents.latimes.com/father-michael-baker/

The scumbag was released from prison after serving 4 years of his 10-year sentence.
 
2013-04-08 12:19:45 AM
I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with Islam. Overall, I think it's a really neat thing, but not for me. I do have a problem with anyone claiming I should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs. Or, rather, it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes steps to try and force me to follow their religious beliefs, then I have a problem.

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?


Please, explain, how liking the taste of an herb makes someone a douchebag? I could say the same about people classifying others based upon their enjoyment of a single plant.

/potheads, for example
 
2013-04-08 12:22:54 AM

Lorelle: Wrong thread, dude!


It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?
 
2013-04-08 12:24:34 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?
 
2013-04-08 12:27:52 AM
i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music
 
2013-04-08 12:35:43 AM
they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise
 
2013-04-08 12:39:10 AM
I don't hate Islam, or any religion really (well, there are some "beliefs" that claim to be religion that I - er, well, we'll leave that for another thread).  What I hate are the people who use religion not as a comforter or even a crutch, but as a cudgel to beat the shiat out of other people.

But, unlike certain others (looking at you evangelical fundamentalist Christians), I do not see Islam as heresy, blasphemy, a threat to the "one true religion" or whatever.  I can never, ever have the depth of fear and hatred that those Islamophobes on the religious right often have.  They see Islam as a threat to the everlasting life of billions of souls.
 
2013-04-08 12:41:16 AM
The thing about phobias is that they have to be irrational fears.  Like, if you're afraid of venomous spiders because your limited exposure to spiders prevents you from telling them apart, it's not a phobia.  It's an appropriate fear a rational person would have.  In the same way, if you're afraid of radical muslim terrorists blowing up your face and your limited exposure to muslims prevents you from telling them from harmless muslims, it's also not a phobia.  The onus on the spiders to get us to understand why we shouldn't kill them, like the misunderstood spider meme.  Sadly, the guy who posed for the ordinary muslim meme blew himself up at a checkpoint outside Jerusalem.
 
2013-04-08 12:43:51 AM

SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music


good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper
 
2013-04-08 12:45:28 AM

Lionel Mandrake: I don't hate Islam, or any religion really (well, there are some "beliefs" that claim to be religion that I - er, well, we'll leave that for another thread).  What I hate are the people who use religion not as a comforter or even a crutch, but as a cudgel to beat the shiat out of other people.

But, unlike certain others (looking at you evangelical fundamentalist Christians), I do not see Islam as heresy, blasphemy, a threat to the "one true religion" or whatever.  I can never, ever have the depth of fear and hatred that those Islamophobes on the religious right often have.  They see Islam as a threat to the everlasting life of billions of souls.


I agree with you entirely.  As Gandhi said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Having lived in the Middle East, I can assure you, most of the moderates there detest the Muslim extremists. Unfortunately, the line gets blurred more often there because religion is a huge part of the culture, regardless of whether the Arabs are Muslim, Druze, Christian or other.
 
2013-04-08 12:46:30 AM
And people who drive slow in the passing lane. I hate those guys. Give me a millitany atheist and Jihad Joe any day of the week.
 
2013-04-08 12:50:30 AM

staplermofo: The thing about phobias is that they have to be irrational fears.  Like, if you're afraid of venomous spiders because your limited exposure to spiders prevents you from telling them apart, it's not a phobia.  It's an appropriate fear a rational person would have.  In the same way, if you're afraid of radical muslim terrorists blowing up your face and your limited exposure to muslims prevents you from telling them from harmless muslims, it's also not a phobia.  The onus on the spiders to get us to understand why we shouldn't kill them, like the misunderstood spider meme.  Sadly, the guy who posed for the ordinary muslim meme blew himself up at a checkpoint outside Jerusalem.


The term "Islamophobia" does not, generally speaking and in common usage, refer to the concept of a phobia in the medical sense. It refers to bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 12:52:00 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper


But you can keep hating Muslims, right?
 
2013-04-08 12:53:55 AM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?


If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .
 
2013-04-08 12:54:23 AM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?


oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.
 
2013-04-08 12:56:44 AM

lumiere: I agree with you entirely. As Gandhi said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


Gandhi the racist?  Who cares what he thinks about Christians?  He proved he isn't a good judge of people.
 
2013-04-08 12:57:06 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .


I ignore people quite infrequently, usually it's only automatic if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.
 
2013-04-08 01:00:02 AM
Is Islam the guy who keeps running his crotch-rocket motorbike down my street at 4am going at about 150km/h? Because then I do really farking hate that guy.

Other than that, I have no issues with Islam.

/atheist
//not preachy about it, promise
 
2013-04-08 01:01:00 AM

doglover: It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?


Gosh, that sounds good.

lumiere: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?


I like parsley, too. Horseradish is an abomination, though.
 
2013-04-08 01:01:17 AM

Sid_6.7: Doktor_Zhivago: If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .

I ignore people quite infrequently, usually it's only automatic if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.


I just meant quit responding. I don't use the ignore thingy. I like a good laugh
 
2013-04-08 01:02:27 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.


tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

 
2013-04-08 01:02:32 AM

cman: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry


Hmmmm I really want to mouth off about what I imagine this article to be about, but I really, really don't want to read it
 
2013-04-08 01:05:07 AM

Lorelle: doglover: It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?

Gosh, that sounds good.

lumiere: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?

I like parsley, too. Horseradish is an abomination, though.



So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.
 
2013-04-08 01:05:43 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Sid_6.7: Doktor_Zhivago: If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .

I ignore people quite infrequently, usually it's only automatic if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.

I just meant quit responding. I don't use the ignore thingy. I like a good laugh


I do, and he's on it, but I often click the  Show posts from ignored users thingy.

I don't know why, but it's fun sometimes.  But sparring with morans gets old quick, so I unclick it after a while.  Like now for example.
 
2013-04-08 01:07:38 AM
doglover: So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.

For once, I'm NOT trolling. Really, I swear. Horseradish sucks.

/needs to buy some more cilantro
//has cravings for cilantro-lime rice
 
2013-04-08 01:08:01 AM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise


I was referring to the atheists.
(cman's comment - then the thread got hijacked by the cilantro comments)
 
2013-04-08 01:12:32 AM

Sid_6.7: if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.


you should talk about that.

now that is funny.

(and not even ironic)
 
2013-04-08 01:14:19 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I was referring to the atheists.
(cman's comment - then the thread got hijacked by the cilantro comments)


ffs it was a baseketball reference holy shiat some of you are sensitive
 
2013-04-08 01:16:38 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper


*clicks link*

Bad Religion in Salt Lake City

When: April 11, 2013

sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net


Heh
 
2013-04-08 01:17:10 AM
For the love of the absence of a higher power, would you farkmothers trim your farkingmother quotes down?
 
2013-04-08 01:20:31 AM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise


So you know what farking thread you are posting in?  (hint:  check the top, look at the writing in green)
(extra hint:  It is a thread about atheists being Islamaphobe hate mongers.)

I was agreeing that they are intolerant.
 
2013-04-08 01:24:25 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: I was agreeing that they are intolerant.


SEE HOW THIS IS NOT 500 LINES OF TEXT!?  CAN YOU IMAGINE WHY THE REST OF THE WORLD WOULD LIKE THAT?!
 
2013-04-08 01:27:36 AM
I love hatred threads.  If there was a clothing line by that name I would wear only their stuff.
 
2013-04-08 01:29:41 AM

staplermofo: tenpoundsofcheese: I was agreeing that they are intolerant.

SEE HOW THIS IS NOT 500 LINES OF TEXT!?  CAN YOU IMAGINE WHY THE REST OF THE WORLD WOULD LIKE THAT?!


wtf?
atheists are intolerant.
the article is about them being hatemongers.

happy that you agree.
 
2013-04-08 01:31:07 AM

staplermofo: I love hatred threads.  If there was a clothing line by that name I would wear only their stuff.


Isn't their clothing line a sheet with two holes cut in it?
 
2013-04-08 01:42:46 AM

Lorelle: doglover: So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.

For once, I'm NOT trolling. Really, I swear. Horseradish sucks.

/needs to buy some more cilantro
//has cravings for cilantro-lime rice


More wasabi for me I guess.
 
2013-04-08 01:42:50 AM
staplermofo: For the love of the absence of a higher power, would you farkmothers trim your farkingmother quotes down?

what's that? another colloquialism for vagina?
 
2013-04-08 01:47:26 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: the article is about them being hatemongers.


 actually it's about one guys comments being attributed to every other atheist.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:30 AM

SpikeStrip: what's that? another colloquialism for vagina?


As far as I know, thanks to islam's fear and revulsion for the vagina, only battery, isomer, motorcross and prescription are not colloquialisms for vagina.  They could be, I'm not an islamic scholar.
 
2013-04-08 01:49:59 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: atheists are intolerant.
the article is about them being hatemongers.

happy that you agree.


You don't see the irony of classifying an entire group of people as intolerant?
 
2013-04-08 01:52:13 AM
Sam Harris is a controversial figure in atheism precisely because of his extreme opinions on Islam in general - and indeed, TFA is hardly atypical of the pushback against him.

I've often personally felt that there are plenty of atheists who have a sense of superiority to theists that they don't really deserve. The only difference between an atheist and a theist is that the former believes in one less thing without adequate evidence - and they might not even disbelieve based on the lack of evidence!

/you think this is bad, you should see how we argue amongst ourselves about feminism
 
2013-04-08 01:52:39 AM

doglover: More wasabi for me I guess.

farm5.static.flickr.com

 
2013-04-08 01:55:35 AM

doglover: Lorelle: doglover: It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?

Gosh, that sounds good.

lumiere: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?

I like parsley, too. Horseradish is an abomination, though.


So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.


I didn't think Lorelle was trolling either.  And I'll eat parsley, cilantro, horseradish, wasabi - just not all together unless it's for a bet.

staplermofo: SpikeStrip: what's that? another colloquialism for vagina?

As far as I know, thanks to islam's fear and revulsion for the vagina, only battery, isomer, motorcross and prescription are not colloquialisms for vagina.  They could be, I'm not an islamic scholar.


Okay, I'll bite.  I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam.  I'm sincerely curious if you don't mind elaborating on that.
 
2013-04-08 01:58:49 AM

lumiere: I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam.


because they are full of sand. duh.
 
2013-04-08 02:03:35 AM

log_jammin: lumiere: I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam.

because they are full of sand. duh.


This.
And they have a tradition of marrying very young, so they can housebreak it early.  They see the wild vaginae of North America rampaging the land like the mighty buffalo, proud, strong and unbroken, and it strikes terror into their hearts.  They prefer domesticated, docile vaginae.  That something about sewing it up, I think that was muslims, or maybe the Japanese, I get them all mixed up.  It was some foreign guys who sound like they're mumbling and swearing furiously at the same time.
 
2013-04-08 02:05:07 AM
just wanted to reference baseketball and boomerang. failed miserably.
 
2013-04-08 02:05:56 AM
Oh crap, I think I mixed up islam with God Emperor of Dune again.  The crescent totally looks like a giant sandworm about to eat a star.  I'm no good at this religious stuff.
 
2013-04-08 02:14:44 AM
The Crusades were no better.
 
2013-04-08 02:15:35 AM

TommyymmoT: The Crusades were no better.


That made no sense without the rejected image..
 
2013-04-08 02:17:06 AM
hpd.de
 
2013-04-08 02:17:11 AM

lumiere: I didn't think Lorelle was trolling either.


Tomatoes IN grilled cheese? Mexican Soap Weed? Doesn't like horseradish?
 
2013-04-08 02:17:51 AM

Lorelle: doglover: More wasabi for me I guess.

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 240x160]


fc03.deviantart.net
 
2013-04-08 02:24:38 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


Hispanic?

/"You're not Mexican?"
 
2013-04-08 02:55:44 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


Did you ever file charges?
 
2013-04-08 02:56:30 AM

Mugato: Lorelle: OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.

Did you tell an adult? Oh you're a girl, nevermind.


Well goddamit on two counts.

/goes back to drinkin'
 
2013-04-08 03:28:22 AM
Ooh, ooh, a thread about whose beliefs are best and automatically make them good people!
*grabs popcorn - fires up Lostprophets*
 
wee [TotalFark]
2013-04-08 04:31:57 AM
If it keeps me from getting a beer and a ham sandwich, I'm against it.
 
2013-04-08 05:00:06 AM
"We never murdered anybody! Cult of personality and other crap! blah blah blah! Khmer Rouge wasn't our fault!"
 
2013-04-08 05:12:39 AM

staplermofo: Sadly, the guy who posed for the ordinary muslim meme blew himself up at a checkpoint outside Jerusalem.


citation needed.
 
2013-04-08 05:13:20 AM

muck4doo: Khmer Rouge wasn't our fault!


hilarious
 
2013-04-08 05:40:59 AM
Just because there are some atheists who are Islamophobic does not mean that all atheists are Islamophobic. Categories, how do they work?
 
2013-04-08 05:50:21 AM
OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?
 
2013-04-08 05:50:59 AM

Diagonal: Just because there are some atheists who are Islamophobic does not mean that all atheists are Islamophobic. Categories, how do they work?


Just because there are some racist teabaggers that does not mean that all teabaggers are racists. Categories, how do they work?
 
2013-04-08 05:55:55 AM

Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?


And if so, what shape is his hat?
 
2013-04-08 05:56:14 AM
There's nothing irrational about hating a religion that prescribes death for apostasy.
 
2013-04-08 05:59:03 AM

Gunther: it's that one atheist (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.


I think Harris said some pretty farked up stuff but yeah, the rest is vague "new atheists say nasty things" comments and the only real examples given are from Harris.
 
2013-04-08 06:00:05 AM

Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.


The proper answer would be "personal responsibility to society norms".
 
2013-04-08 06:00:05 AM
Getting paid to troll must be a fun job.
 
2013-04-08 06:00:41 AM

staplermofo: It was some foreign guys who sound like they're mumbling and swearing furiously at the same time.


Germans?
 
2013-04-08 06:00:52 AM
It's sorta easy to fear and hate someone who wants you dead.
 
2013-04-08 06:01:29 AM
Religion is Farked up, but Islam really sucks because the way they treat women.
 
2013-04-08 06:02:06 AM

miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?



fc07.deviantart.net
This one gets my vote....
 
2013-04-08 06:03:37 AM

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?


Ok, I snorted. +1 internets
 
2013-04-08 06:04:17 AM

Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.


If you're looking for the general philosophy, it's called Secular Humanism.

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


Tasteless Cretin?
Bob Dole?
 
2013-04-08 06:07:08 AM

propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.


probably as much as the libtards love the republicorp.

\agnostic.
 
2013-04-08 06:08:06 AM
Not reading the article, because I'm only gonna get irked. Not all religions are equal, and like other atheists have mentioned (and I agree with) I largely don't give a shiat what you believe until it starts intruding on others. Sam Harris has gone on about this at length. A Jain's belief system really isn't impactful on you or me, and we've nothing to fear from them based solely on their religious beliefs. (An individual human who also happens to be a Jain might be a real bastard, but we're talking about their beliefs).

I was raised Catholic, lots of bad about that faith. I don't harbor any personal animosity (my experiences were largely very positive) but I left 'cause I didn't believe. Worst that happened was the reaction of some in my family. My old religion isn't doing squat about me leaving. If I wrote to the parish I was baptized in and demanded they pull me from the rolls...the worst they'd do is be snotty about it.

I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country.  And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.

And if you don't think some are worse than others, engage in a little thought experiment for me. Imagine various religions, and imagine YOU are a member of the group they hate most. What do you have to fear from them? If you're in certain parts of Africa, you'd have to fear a nasty strain of Christianity who literally kills people they deem witches...but you'd have a lot more places to fear if we swap in Islam.

And duh of course there are good Muslims, I've known a few. :) But I don't know if they'd be considered a good muslim by other muslims or the tenants of their faith.

But I think all the concepts of god and the divine I've seen are pretty weaksauce.
 
2013-04-08 06:12:14 AM
I find the most recent SMBC to be relevant here. Most atheists I know are like me (also an atheist). They believe what they believe and they don't give a fark about what other people believe. And I know plenty of Christians who are like that. And I also know quite a few pagans/wiccans like that. A taoist, too. For the vast majority of the population, faith is personal and we don't need to scrutinize the faith of others. But then...
 
2013-04-08 06:12:56 AM

lacydog: I find the most recent SMBC to be relevant here. Most atheists I know are like me (also an atheist). They believe what they believe and they don't give a fark about what other people believe. And I know plenty of Christians who are like that. And I also know quite a few pagans/wiccans like that. A taoist, too. For the vast majority of the population, faith is personal and we don't need to scrutinize the faith of others. But then...


Whoops. Image was too big. Link here.
 
2013-04-08 06:14:10 AM
Hypersensitivity in the atheist community is nothing new. PZ Myers' entire blog and the "Skepchick" writers run on it.

I agree that Harris gets a little too extreme sometimes in his remarks about Islam, but it's not wrong to point out that their fundentalists are magnitudes worse that any Christian or Buddhist extremist (whose most radical acts have traditionally been setting themselves on fire.)
 
2013-04-08 06:17:02 AM
imageshack.us
 
2013-04-08 06:20:44 AM
FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.

Also: A person that thinks religions are goofy being outraged that someone else who thinks religions that are especially repressive and violent are especially goofy is FARKING STUPID.

Why is it that atheists often sound like pretentious douchebags? Is that just their cross to bear?
 
2013-04-08 06:22:48 AM
The Quran says that you and I deserve to have our skin burned off, and Muslims say it is the most beautiful book ever written. That is all.
 
2013-04-08 06:22:51 AM

Lady Indica: I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country. And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.


That's probably a bit too broad of a brush, though. And I think the point of the article is that these sorts of characterizations probably do more to exacerbate the problem than to help it. When Dawkins/Hitchens write these things about Islam, they serve to inflame those in the Islamic community who believe that the West is out to get them, and provides them "proof" of that conspiracy. That's not to say that we should hold no judgement about practices of other people, but the arguments by bigoted atheists are sloppily applying things that happen in one country or in one sect to attack the entire religion. Which makes sense if your goal is to bring down organized religion. But if you consider yourself a "live and let live" type of atheist, then you probably would do best to avoid those sorts of arguments.

If you read about a terrible practice coming from a specific part of the world, you're justified in taking a stance against that practice. You can say "the Taliban are a bunch of jackasses, and we shouldn't be allowing them any sort of power", and that's not bigoted in the slightest. It is a stretch to say that Islam is the root of all of it, and therefor should be removed. If you want to argue that because you think all religion is bad, then that's your prerogative. But if you want to preach tolerance and acceptance and all that jazz... be careful about painting everyone with the same brush because they all fall under a similar-looking umbrella.
 
2013-04-08 06:25:38 AM

WhoopAssWayne: [imageshack.us image 399x599]


That's generally more the domain of the spiritual but not religious category, not the atheist/agnostic crowd.
 
2013-04-08 06:26:31 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


This. Well, the first ten years anyway. But it's easy to hate the Catholic church anyway.
 
2013-04-08 06:26:44 AM
I think it has to do with which extremists are more likely to cut off your head for your non-beliefs, currently.

(That likelihood having as much to do with the existence/permissiveness of local law enforcement as anything else.)
 
2013-04-08 06:28:39 AM

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


His entire point was that the 'new atheists' specifically single out Islam as an order of magnitude worse than the 'run of the mill evil' perpetrated by religion in general. So yes, it is possible to have an irrational fear for a specific subset belonging to a group that you decry, ostensibly for rational reasons. You can hate "bugs," because in your experience they are pests and in rare instances carry disease and are generally irritating. At the same time, you can be an arachnophobe. This doesn't make you a "bugophobe."

.

As far as defining the "good", society itself can do that. It can do it a lot better than the otherwise immutable rules handed down from a divine source. You don't need a threat of everlasting hell to force a kid to do his chores (or not kill people). Secular aesops (for example, Dr Seuss) can teach morality without ever deliberately invoking supreme beings (though I'm sure arguments would be made that they contain religious imagery, because people tend to look for it even where it is not intended). Likewise, as far as adults are concerned, punishment by human law would serve just as well as hell.

That is, of course, provided that the concept of an everlasting and a "true religion" can be purged from the public belief. Which is not likely to happen. You cannot destroy religion. If it were possible, it is likely that the concept of a religious belief would never have developed. We create answers for things we cannot see or understand - it's how we survived. The best you can hope for is to disconnect the religious belief from the secular, physical life. I don't care what you believe as long as you're not trying to influence the lives of others based on irrational arguments. Force daily prayer because {religion} is True and God would be offended otherwise? Well, no. Force daily prayer because it improves humility and thus social bonds? In that case, if you have evidence of such a response, I'll consider it on those merits. (Take note that this is just an example.)
 
2013-04-08 06:31:29 AM

lacydog: Lady Indica: I'm an apostate, technically. And in Islam, the punishment for such is death. And this is the legal law in more than one Islamic country. And yes, you can argue (correctly) that not all muslims believe this. And yet, not all Catholics believe in being against birth control. Or being against abortion. Yet, their stance doesn't reflect what their religion teaches and preaches.

Are there atheist bigots? Well duh. Sure. There's bigots everywhere really. But the majority of atheists who have a biiiig farking issue with Islam specifically do so because it is worse than most other faiths in numerous ways. I've only listed one.

That's probably a bit too broad of a brush, though. And I think the point of the article is that these sorts of characterizations probably do more to exacerbate the problem than to help it. When Dawkins/Hitchens write these things about Islam, they serve to inflame those in the Islamic community who believe that the West is out to get them, and provides them "proof" of that conspiracy. That's not to say that we should hold no judgement about practices of other people, but the arguments by bigoted atheists are sloppily applying things that happen in one country or in one sect to attack the entire religion. Which makes sense if your goal is to bring down organized religion. But if you consider yourself a "live and let live" type of atheist, then you probably would do best to avoid those sorts of arguments.

If you read about a terrible practice coming from a specific part of the world, you're justified in taking a stance against that practice. You can say "the Taliban are a bunch of jackasses, and we shouldn't be allowing them any sort of power", and that's not bigoted in the slightest. It is a stretch to say that Islam is the root of all of it, and therefor should be removed. If you want to argue that because you think all religion is bad, then that's your prerogative. But if you want to preach tolerance and acceptance and all that jazz... be careful about painting everyone with the same brush because they all fall under a similar-looking umbrella.


Ask any Muslim one direct question. Does Islam require you to convert, subjugate or kill non-believers? All religions will legislate their beliefs if they have the power.
 
2013-04-08 06:32:03 AM

staplermofo: tenpoundsofcheese: I was agreeing that they are intolerant.

SEE HOW THIS IS NOT 500 LINES OF TEXT!?  CAN YOU IMAGINE WHY THE REST OF THE WORLD WOULD LIKE THAT?!


Imagine all the people
Trimming their quotes down-ho ah ah ah
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
Some day I hope you'll trim your quotes, too,
And the world can live as one.
 
2013-04-08 06:32:10 AM
All atheists are indistinguishable from those who hate Islam.

All Muslims are indistinguishable from those who fly airliners into office buildings

All Christians are indistinguishable from the Westboro Baptist Church
 
2013-04-08 06:34:10 AM
This article is a little late to the bandwagon. I've been reading variations of this for the past few weeks.
 
2013-04-08 06:34:39 AM

Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.


Christians. Ruining Christianity for 2000 years.
 
2013-04-08 06:35:07 AM

SpikeStrip: staplermofo: For the love of the absence of a higher power, would you farkmothers trim your farkingmother quotes down?

what's that? another colloquialism for vagina?


I like long quotes and I cannot lie
You other farkers can't deny
That when a troll walks in
with an itty-bitty brain and a long quote in your face
you get sprung, wanna pull out your tough
'Cause you notice that post was stuffed
 
2013-04-08 06:40:28 AM
stratagos: Some atheists are indistinguishable from those who hate Islam.

All Muslims are mostly indistinguishable from Christians

All general religious fundamentalists are indistinguishable from the Westboro Baptist Church


/more accurate
 
2013-04-08 06:41:21 AM

staplermofo: Oh crap, I think I mixed up islam with God Emperor of Dune again.  The crescent totally looks like a giant sandworm about to eat a star.  I'm no good at this religious stuff.


It is by will alone I set my vagina in motion.
 
2013-04-08 06:44:15 AM

Niveras: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

His entire point was that the 'new atheists' specifically single out Islam as an order of magnitude worse than the 'run of the mill evil' perpetrated by religion in general. So yes, it is possible to have an irrational fear for a specific subset belonging to a group that you decry, ostensibly for rational reasons. You can hate "bugs," because in your experience they are pests and in rare instances carry disease and are generally irritating. At the same time, you can be an arachnophobe. This doesn't make you a "bugophobe."

.

As far as defining the "good", society itself can do that. It can do it a lot better than the otherwise immutable rules handed down from a divine source. You don't need a threat of everlasting hell to force a kid to do his chores (or not kill people). Secular aesops (for example, Dr Seuss) can teach morality without ever deliberately invoking supreme beings (though I'm sure arguments would be made that they contain religious imagery, because people tend to look for it even where it is not intended). Likewise, as far as adults are concerned, punishment by human law would serve just as well as hell.

That is, of course, provided that the concept of an everlasting and a "true religion" can be purged from the public belief. Which is not likely to happen. You cannot destroy religion. If it were possible, it is likely that the concept of a religious belief would never have developed. We create answers for things we cannot see or understand - it's how we survived. The best you can hope for is to disconnect the religious belief from the secular, physical life. I don't care what you believe as long as you're not trying to influence the lives of others based on irrational arguments.


I should add that, yes, for 90% of believers, this is how they live anyway. That last 10%, though. Holy shiatballs.
 
2013-04-08 06:44:30 AM

propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.


I dont love Islam. I dont hate it either. Its just another religion to me, I respect the people who practice it and dont try to tell them they are wrong.

If you hate or fear anyone because of a religion, youre a farking idiot. Your religion and the ignorance it caused in you is the problem, not the other persons religion.
 
2013-04-08 06:45:21 AM

blueviking: miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


[fc07.deviantart.net image 850x824]
This one gets my vote....


I used to wear a Pastafarian hat, but my friends kept nibbling on it.
 
2013-04-08 06:47:23 AM

staplermofo: In the same way, if you're afraid of radical muslim terrorists blowing up your face and your limited exposure to muslims prevents you from telling them from harmless muslims, it's also not a phobia.


It isnt a phobia, youre right. Its ignorance. Then again, religion does make some people go full retard. Thats one of two things religion is good for. the other is killing people
 
2013-04-08 06:47:44 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


God's chosen people.
 
2013-04-08 06:52:43 AM
The author is not a very good atheist if he does not understand why an atheist should behave morally or ethically without the constructs an organized religion would provide a person. With or without religious frameworks, and barring any crippling brain or psychological trauma, one determines right and wrong through a combination of experience, instruction and thoughtful consideration, and may be subjected to correction by social interaction or norms.  And even if one has well-developed, socially acceptable sense of right and wrong, it's no guarantee that person won't, in a moment of weakness, act like a douche.  Even Jesus debated with the elders of the church (friggin' uppity peasant know-it-all. who does he think he is? the son of God?).
 
2013-04-08 06:52:55 AM

ciberido: It is by will alone I set my vagina in motion.


Keep going, get to the juice part.  This is going to end up better than that fishtalkers fanfic.
 
2013-04-08 06:53:11 AM

log_jammin: lumiere: I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam.

because they are full of sand. duh.


cdn3.hark.com

"I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
 
2013-04-08 06:53:13 AM
Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.
 
2013-04-08 06:58:56 AM

The Snow Dog: FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.



Maybe.  Has anybody ever done a study showing what percentage of published atheists are white, what percentage are male, and how that compares to, say, all published authors?

It does kind of seem like most "movement atheists" who blog (or write books, or tweet) in English about being atheist are white males, but I'm not aware of any hard statistics that back up that perception.

Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?
 
2013-04-08 07:01:02 AM

ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?


and then after that they could tell us why it is in anyway relevant.
 
2013-04-08 07:02:38 AM
Atheism isillegal in most of the Muslim world. Apostasy is punishable by imprisonment or death. The Quran and Hadith support this.

Asking why Atheists are Islamophobic is like asking why Jews are Naziphobic.
 
2013-04-08 07:04:02 AM
As an atheist my level of animosity towards a particular religion depends on how repugnant that religion is.

For instance, I think Jainism is silly but if I pay it no mind.

Islam on the other hand is currently the most repugnant religion on the planet and that's saying a lot considering they have to compete with the Catholic church for that title.

But listening to atheists honk about Islamophobia is nothing new as for a long while there it boggled my damn mind how quickly they would start screaming what a terrible hateful person you were for giving Islam the same amount of scorn as Christianity. This seems to be subsiding but you can be sure as hell the moment an atheist calls Islam out for what it actually is "Waaah! Islamophobia!"

I expect that from the Muslims. I don't expect that from non-Muslims.

Islam deserves to be viewed with a greater level of contempt than fundamental Christianity. As I'm fond of telling people who like to preach to me about all the non-violent Muslims... That's all well and good... That only makes them as bad as the Christians. Islam is the religion of perpetual offense on a hair trigger that goes off violently every time it gets a chance and as bad as Christians are I don't see them engaged in world wide violent riots over unflattering pictures of Jesus. I'm not even talking about the terrorism here although I certainly could. Genital mutilation isn't happening in some far off corner of crazy land, it's happening in England. Women being treated like live stock? Sharia law being given special treatment? Animals in slaughter houses suffering needlessly to satisfy religious zealots? Again, not in some far off crazy land, these things happen in Europe.

Islamophobia? If such a thing actually existed then the world could use a lot more of it.
 
2013-04-08 07:04:42 AM
Am I allowed to say that ALL the "Abrahamic" religions are for nutcases and cause more harm than good?

Things never go well when you make god in your own image.

/that said, the article has a point
//but it's a bit like complaining about black racists
 
2013-04-08 07:05:03 AM
Islam deserves to be singled out, as it represents a much greater threat to the core tenets of western civilization than any other religion / group that exists today. It isn't just the fringe either - mainstream Islam is the problem. When upwards of 75% of the people in large, populous Muslim countries believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.

I wish more in the west would stop being apologists and start calling out these people for the danger their beliefs present.
 
2013-04-08 07:06:07 AM
I don't hate religions. I think religions are a great tool to influence and suppress the uneducated masses. Of course that means I admire the religion leaders for their ingenuity and just see every other religious person as brainwashed or plain stupid. To believe some of the core ideas of most mainstream religions you have to be unable of scientific or logical thinking or just of thinking at all.
 
2013-04-08 07:08:44 AM
cdn.head-fi.org
 
2013-04-08 07:10:52 AM

miss diminutive: Is Islam the guy who keeps running his crotch-rocket motorbike down my street at 4am going at about 150km/h? Because then I do really farking hate that guy.



Let me tell you about piano wire.
 
2013-04-08 07:11:03 AM
Seems to me Harris is just following the Hitchens mold in that criticizing Islam is a sure-fire way to piss off the sort of people that would do for you what they did to Rushdie. Nothing earns you points like having a fatwa issued against you. And it doesn't hurt your chances with the ladies, either.

With that said, I think Greenwald does a pretty decent job of explaining things in the link provided within the article.
 
2013-04-08 07:12:08 AM

doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?


Italians.
 
2013-04-08 07:12:30 AM

bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!


Atheism did that? Here I was thinking it was cola advertisements.

bullsballs: There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.


Which means that we must take greater care of our legacy and truly cherish our time here on Earth as opposed to counting on spending eternity in some blissful state, fully removed from our actions and decisions.

bullsballs: Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.


Our rules are coded into the very fabric of our cultural and societal norms. Sure you can try living by your own set, but anything that's too far outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour (such as say, stabbing every 3rd person you meet with a sharpened popsicle stick) will result in serious negative consequences.
 
2013-04-08 07:12:41 AM
Author fail:  What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide. You don't need God to be a good person, but you do need some way of differentiating good acts from bad, virtue from evil.

Religions do not provide morality and framework. All they provide is a bunch of arbitrary (and often silly / barbaric) laws that the unthinking worshipers are supposed to follow. Real morality, such as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not mooch thine neighbor's resources," is an evolved feature of our species.
 
2013-04-08 07:14:30 AM
I can only really speak for myself on this since there is no "atheist handbook of rules" that we all follow... As I see it, I don't care what religion someone is. I consider all religions on equal footing when it comes to the believing in strange and unprovable things, but as long as religious people aren't harming anyone else, it really makes no difference to me what they believe. However, when religion starts leading someone to do harm to others... I have a problem with it.

And that's about it... Do harm to others in the name of your religious beliefs and I'll hold you and the religion that taught you the act that was responsible.

Don't want me to dislike you or your religious beliefs? Don't do other people harm. It's really that simple.
 
2013-04-08 07:15:16 AM
Dawkins, for one, has a habit of being oddly deferential when the subject of Islam comes up, and it's likely because he'd rather not get shot.

And this is NOT because all Muslims are crazy or murderous. But it only takes a small percentage of hard-core crazies before one starts to think that there's an easier living to be made attacking Christianity and Judaism. I would bet large sums of money that Dawkins knows the name Theo Van Gogh, and would prefer not to share Van Gogh's fate.
 
2013-04-08 07:15:33 AM

log_jammin: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

and then after that they could tell us why it is in anyway relevant.


And then after that they could read the thread before posting.
 
2013-04-08 07:16:08 AM
That article described perfectly what I call "internet atheist"
 
2013-04-08 07:16:17 AM
I'll have to save this for next time some Christian complains that atheists never attack other religions.
 
2013-04-08 07:17:03 AM

ciberido: And then after that they could read the thread before posting.


I don't get it. why do I need to read that post again?
 
2013-04-08 07:17:08 AM

dfxdeimos: Islam deserves to be singled out, as it represents a much greater threat to the core tenets of western civilization than any other religion / group that exists today.


The GOP bible-thumpers say hi.

 It isn't just the fringe either - mainstream Islam is the problem. When upwards of 75% of the people in large, populous Muslim countries believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.

In  some large, populous muslim countries. In others, not so much.

I wish more in the west would stop being apologists and start calling out these people for the danger their beliefs present.

Most muslims are nothing like the fire-breathing boogy-men the far right are trying to make them out to be. Islam is just another stupid religion. One of many. Yes, islam has the potential for violence, but so does any other religion. No exceptions.

/have I been trolled?
 
2013-04-08 07:18:01 AM

digistil: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

God's chosen people.


Penguins fans aren't know for their love of cilantro.
 
2013-04-08 07:18:49 AM

TommyymmoT: hpd.de


I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

www.comediva.com
 
2013-04-08 07:21:32 AM
Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.
 
2013-04-08 07:23:15 AM

ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?


We have conventions now??

But, yeah, in the US at least, it seems we're mostly white males... It varies in other countries, though... (Brazil seems to be the only place where female atheists outnumber male atheists, though...)
 
2013-04-08 07:23:37 AM
This is a classic example of two liberal concepts coming into conflict with each other. On the one hand, you have the classical liberals who want to promote secularism in the world, and on the other you have the social justice set who hate anything that smells like cultural relativism and don't think white people should be allowed to assess non-European cultures. People aren't sure which one should win out, so they have to pick a side.

Thankfully, most of them are picking the former, since the kind of people who go with the latter in a situation like this are idiots.
 
2013-04-08 07:25:37 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.


How come you haven't asked me yet, you sky wizard worshipping, thick-headed twatjockey?

/I keed, I keed
//There are plenty of us who are just regular folks
 
2013-04-08 07:26:19 AM

ciberido: The Snow Dog: FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.


Maybe.  Has anybody ever done a study showing what percentage of published atheists are white, what percentage are male, and how that compares to, say, all published authors?

It does kind of seem like most "movement atheists" who blog (or write books, or tweet) in English about being atheist are white males, but I'm not aware of any hard statistics that back up that perception.



They are not just white males. They are often rich white males of influence. We aren't talking about Cletus from some backwoods trailer park from Alabama but wealthy, professors from world renowned universities. Men of some significant power.
 
2013-04-08 07:28:55 AM

miss diminutive: /I keed, I keed
//There are plenty of us who are just regular folks


Many have gone on to have kick ass lives. Hell, my ex is an airline pilot
 
2013-04-08 07:29:18 AM

mekki: ciberido: The Snow Dog: FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.


Maybe.  Has anybody ever done a study showing what percentage of published atheists are white, what percentage are male, and how that compares to, say, all published authors?

It does kind of seem like most "movement atheists" who blog (or write books, or tweet) in English about being atheist are white males, but I'm not aware of any hard statistics that back up that perception.


They are not just white males. They are often rich white males of influence. We aren't talking about Cletus from some backwoods trailer park from Alabama but wealthy, professors from world renowned universities. Men of some significant power.


Well, if Bubba-Jos goth girlfriend wrote a book about how just like, people who believe in stuff is like just so totally bogus, it's not exactly going to sell well to this particular target audience, is it? So the publishing houses invented Dawkins and Harris and pretend like they wrote it instead.
 
2013-04-08 07:29:32 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.


Have you considered the possibility that you're the only asshole involved here? You know - Occam's Razor and all that.
 
2013-04-08 07:30:38 AM
I'm an atheist, and it's never been a big deal for me. ....

Famous first words of  trolls about to slander atheists.
 
2013-04-08 07:30:54 AM
1. Make a label, "New Atheists"

2. Put 2 people in it, Dawkins and Harris, but cite Harris repeatedly

3. Talk as if this describes all "atheists", which as always, is a term you can define as you like

I.e., assign the worst traits of your side to an imaginary other side
 
2013-04-08 07:31:02 AM

ciberido: blueviking: miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


[fc07.deviantart.net image 850x824]
This one gets my vote....

I used to wear a Pastafarian hat, but my friends kept nibbling on it.


I was considering the Pastafarian hat...but the Cthulhu one just had a bit more flair, IMHO.
 
2013-04-08 07:31:20 AM

rikkards: Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.

The proper answer would be "personal responsibility to society norms".


Also it is hard to see how anyone with a belief in an eternally happy afterlife for good people, and hell for bad people is really "moral" - they are just being selfish on a longer time frame.
 
2013-04-08 07:31:22 AM

mekki: I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.


Science: 1, religion: a whole farking lot more.
 
2013-04-08 07:31:23 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.


Sounds 100% legit.
 
2013-04-08 07:31:45 AM
Totally didn't read the article, and am running out the door....but I just wanted to poke my head into an interesting looking thread and say....


I really, really wish 'athiests' would actually coorectly identify themselves and stop giving a bad rap to the 99% of athiests that are actually atheist and NOT flaming assclowns.

<--- Gnostic Theist

<---- hates organized religion
<---- prefers not to talk about it
 
2013-04-08 07:32:03 AM

Uncle Tractor: dfxdeimos: Islam deserves to be singled out, as it represents a much greater threat to the core tenets of western civilization than any other religion / group that exists today.

The GOP bible-thumpers say hi.

 It isn't just the fringe either - mainstream Islam is the problem. When upwards of 75% of the people in large, populous Muslim countries believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.

In  some large, populous muslim countries. In others, not so much.

I wish more in the west would stop being apologists and start calling out these people for the danger their beliefs present.

Most muslims are nothing like the fire-breathing boogy-men the far right are trying to make them out to be. Islam is just another stupid religion. One of many. Yes, islam has the potential for violence, but so does any other religion. No exceptions.

/have I been trolled?


Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,
 
2013-04-08 07:32:40 AM

Biological Ali: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

Have you considered the possibility that you're the only asshole involved here? You know - Occam's Razor and all that.


Handle is "Divinegrace", and the only bad people they meet happen to be agnostic or atheist. Pretty clear that's what's going on.
 
2013-04-08 07:34:36 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.


you live in kansas city? yeah, that never happened.

/bet you live in Johnson County too.
 
2013-04-08 07:36:51 AM
I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.
 
2013-04-08 07:37:00 AM

xria: rikkards: Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.

The proper answer would be "personal responsibility to society norms".

Also it is hard to see how anyone with a belief in an eternally happy afterlife for good people, and hell for bad people is really "moral" - they are just being selfish on a longer time frame.


mor·al /ˈmôrəl/
Adjective
Concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

Noun
A lesson, esp. one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.


Well, that should explain it... reward for good people, punishment for bad ones. Sounds like it fits the accepted definition of "moral" to me.
 
2013-04-08 07:37:55 AM

mekki: I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.


"Science" led to the creation on the bomb, much like it led to the creation of commercial aircraft. What "science" didn't do, however, was cause anybody to actually use these things to inflict pointless death and suffering.
 
2013-04-08 07:37:55 AM

cman: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry


I honestly couldn't make it halfway through the article. The amount of self loathing of this man is disgusting. He spends almost every paragraph hating that fact that he is atheist.  All right, we get it, your a closet Christian, get a room already.
 
2013-04-08 07:38:05 AM

Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?


This.

If you are an atheist you are going to have a problem when a religion commands people to do stupid things.  Fundamentalists are much more likely to do stupid things, and fundamentalism is a cornerstone of Islam.
 
2013-04-08 07:38:17 AM
static.giantbomb.com
 
2013-04-08 07:40:12 AM

adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.


you do know that Christians follow the teachings of Christ, not Judaism, right?
(old vs new testament)
 
2013-04-08 07:41:11 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.


Wow, you don't sound like a judgemental asshole at all. I can't imagine why nonbelievers wouldn't get on with you.

Also; you have a problem with agnostics? Seriously? That's like hating vanilla. Or the color beige. Or Canadians. They're just kinda bland and inoffensive.
 
2013-04-08 07:41:56 AM

adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.


The point is that Islam is particular bad NOW, not thousands of years ago.
 
2013-04-08 07:43:14 AM

log_jammin: mekki: I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

Science: 1, religion: a whole farking lot more.


Well, religion had a head start. There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David. But science is catching up pretty well.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-08 07:44:27 AM

Gunther: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

Wow, you don't sound like a judgemental asshole at all. I can't imagine why nonbelievers wouldn't get on with you.

Also; you have a problem with agnostics? Seriously? That's like hating vanilla. Or the color beige. Or Canadians. They're just kinda bland and inoffensive.


yeah, well screw you and your "Desert Sand" beige colors

:P
 
2013-04-08 07:44:54 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Biological Ali: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

Have you considered the possibility that you're the only asshole involved here? You know - Occam's Razor and all that.

Handle is "Divinegrace", and the only bad people they meet happen to be agnostic or atheist. Pretty clear that's what's going on.


I did NOT say the only BAD people I meet are agnostic or atheist (most of the 'BAD" people I have meet are strangely enough Catholics...not to say I haven't meet some fine Catholics because there are many good/great people out there who are).

What I DID say was that  spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered people I meet have turned out to be agnostic or atheists. There is a HUGE difference between people who are spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered...and someone who is genuinely "BAD", but I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand the difference, and forgive you for your misunderstanding.
 
2013-04-08 07:45:45 AM

log_jammin: adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.

The point is that Islam is particular bad NOW, not thousands of years ago.


that is true... they have mellowed a bit, now they only blow things up and cut off a few dozen heads a year now unlike the thousands they did a couple thousand years ago.
 
2013-04-08 07:47:42 AM

mekki: log_jammin: mekki: I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

Science: 1, religion: a whole farking lot more.

Well, religion had a head start. There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David. But science is catching up pretty well.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x335]


that pic made me think of this tune...  NSFW
 
2013-04-08 07:47:49 AM

Uncle Tractor: dfxdeimos: Islam deserves to be singled out, as it represents a much greater threat to the core tenets of western civilization than any other religion / group that exists today.

The GOP bible-thumpers say hi.

 It isn't just the fringe either - mainstream Islam is the problem. When upwards of 75% of the people in large, populous Muslim countries believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.

In  some large, populous muslim countries. In others, not so much.

I wish more in the west would stop being apologists and start calling out these people for the danger their beliefs present.

Most muslims are nothing like the fire-breathing boogy-men the far right are trying to make them out to be. Islam is just another stupid religion. One of many. Yes, islam has the potential for violence, but so does any other religion. No exceptions.

/have I been trolled?


Ah, another hyperbole bound apologist that refuses to recognize the special dangers presented by an ideology that represents itself as the final and unalterable truth.

When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for adultery should be stoning - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for theft or robbery should involve whippings or cutting off the hands of the accused - that is a problem.

And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

But I am sure that you would find a similar number of Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus that would say the same thing, right? Get farking real.
 
2013-04-08 07:49:51 AM

dfxdeimos: Ah, another hyperbole bound apologist that refuses to recognize the special dangers presented by an ideology that represents itself as the final and unalterable truth.

When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for adultery should be stoning - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for theft or robbery should involve whippings or cutting off the hands of the accused - that is a problem.

And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

But I am sure that you would find a similar number of Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus that would say the same thing, right? Get farking real.


I was gonna say something about the stoning but then realized it wasn't the nice kind i was thinking of...
 
2013-04-08 07:50:53 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Thank you, came here to say something similar.

99% of us atheists like 99% of the religious couldn't give a flying fark what the other is doing.  In all sub-groupings of humanity, the outspoken ones usually have extreme views and tend to be the ones we like to biatch about.
 
2013-04-08 07:52:09 AM

Divinegrace: HotWingConspiracy: Biological Ali: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

Have you considered the possibility that you're the only asshole involved here? You know - Occam's Razor and all that.

Handle is "Divinegrace", and the only bad people they meet happen to be agnostic or atheist. Pretty clear that's what's going on.

I did NOT say the only BAD people I meet are agnostic or atheist (most of the 'BAD" people I have meet are strangely enough Catholics...not to say I haven't meet some fine Catholics because there are many good/great people out there who are).

What I DID say was that  spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered people I meet have turned out to be agnostic or atheists. There is a HUGE difference between people who are spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered...and someone who is genuinely "BAD", but I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand the difference, and forgive you for your misunderstanding.


Yes, I'm calling you a liar. Liar.

Go pray on it.
 
2013-04-08 07:52:55 AM

adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.


Maybe you're the dumbass who needs to read a history book.

1. The Old Testament is part of Islam. Christians do not necessarily have to follow the laws found therein.
2. The Muslims have fought plenty of wars themselves. Go ask the Hindus how nice the Mughals were to them (Hint: They weren't). Or, if you want to see inter-communal violence between Muslims, just head on down to Syria. More importantly, Muhammad himself waged plenty of wars against non-believers and there are sections of the Quran that are all about when its okay to fight wars, which is more often than the 'official' Christian doctrine would be. Obviously, the Europeans have done some horrible shiat, but unlike Islam, none of that could be supported by the New Testament.
3. The missionaries don't force anyone to convert. You know who does? The men who kidnap girls from non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries, force them to convert to Islam, marry them, and then receive protection from the authorities. Hell, the official Islamic policy on marriage is that men can marry non-Muslim women but Muslim women must stick to Muslim men only, specifically to make sure people are converting towards. And don't get me started on the jizya, a tax that existed solely to put enough of a financial strain on minorities that they'd convert just to get rid of it. Don't forget that the Quran can only be truly understood if you read Arabic as well. Islam perfected cultural genocide before there was a word for it.
 
2013-04-08 07:53:17 AM
Fundamentalists of all beliefs whether religious or otherwise are evil.
 
2013-04-08 07:54:01 AM
Divinegrace:

I did NOT say the only BAD people I meet are agnostic or atheist (most of the 'BAD" people I have meet are strangely enough Catholics...not to say I haven't meet some fine Catholics because there are many good/great people out there who are).

What I DID say was that  spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered people I meet have turned out to be agnostic or atheists. There is a HUGE difference between people who are spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered...and someone who is genuinely "BAD", but I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand the difference, and forgive you for your misunderstanding.


Oh wow.
 
2013-04-08 07:54:21 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Divinegrace: HotWingConspiracy: Biological Ali: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

Have you considered the possibility that you're the only asshole involved here? You know - Occam's Razor and all that.

Handle is "Divinegrace", and the only bad people they meet happen to be agnostic or atheist. Pretty clear that's what's going on.

I did NOT say the only BAD people I meet are agnostic or atheist (most of the 'BAD" people I have meet are strangely enough Catholics...not to say I haven't meet some fine Catholics because there are many good/great people out there who are).

What I DID say was that  spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered people I meet have turned out to be agnostic or atheists. There is a HUGE difference between people who are spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered...and someone who is genuinely "BAD", but I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand the difference, and forgive you for your misunderstanding.

Yes, I'm calling you a liar. Liar.

Go pray on it.


helian.net
 
2013-04-08 07:54:41 AM

muck1969: The author is not a very good atheist if he does not understand why an atheist should behave morally or ethically without the constructs an organized religion would provide a person. With or without religious frameworks, and barring any crippling brain or psychological trauma, one determines right and wrong through a combination of experience, instruction and thoughtful consideration, and may be subjected to correction by social interaction or norms.  And even if one has well-developed, socially acceptable sense of right and wrong, it's no guarantee that person won't, in a moment of weakness, act like a douche.  Even Jesus debated with the elders of the church (friggin' uppity peasant know-it-all. who does he think he is? the son of God?).


Actually, what the author was saying there is basically that Atheism says:

Root of all Evil = Religion

but

Root of all Good = ???

He's not questioning how a person can be good without the guidance of religion, because it's already established that people can be good without religion, he is asking for atheism to define where that comes from...

Based on what my philosophy class discussed in college, good comes out of fear of punishment of society...

Basically coming from a parable of a hypothetical village during the dawn of civilization:
Before law was invented, the general rule in the village was a basic form of "might makes right" and the strongest villager simply took what he wanted without regard to other villagers feelings. One day the other villagers got together and after determining that they had enough oppression from the stronger, they joined forces and sought restitution because many are stronger than one. After the combined forces of the weak overthrew the strongest, they laid the ground works for the first Laws and Punishments for breaking the Laws. Therefore a person who follows the law is deemed a good person, and those who break it are considered evil...

I'm not sure which philosopher it was that held this view... but it basically comes down to ear of reprisal is the biggest motivation for people acting "good"... Religion just perfected the reprisal to also include punishment beyond death... because you can only threaten death for so long before someone crazy enough will come along and not fear death for their actions, so someone had to come up with an excuse to punish people beyond death...
 
2013-04-08 07:55:32 AM

mekki: log_jammin: mekki: I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

Science: 1, religion: a whole farking lot more.

Well, religion had a head start. There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David. But science is catching up pretty well.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x335]


Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence. Some holy texts are quite detailed on who should be killed and why.
 
2013-04-08 07:56:53 AM

Gunther: Divinegrace:

I did NOT say the only BAD people I meet are agnostic or atheist (most of the 'BAD" people I have meet are strangely enough Catholics...not to say I haven't meet some fine Catholics because there are many good/great people out there who are).

What I DID say was that  spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered people I meet have turned out to be agnostic or atheists. There is a HUGE difference between people who are spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered...and someone who is genuinely "BAD", but I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand the difference, and forgive you for your misunderstanding.

Oh wow.


Yeah can you believe that people don't get along with this divinely graceful person? They're simply filled with love.
 
2013-04-08 08:00:31 AM

ciberido: The Snow Dog: FTA: " Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion and smirked at the inconsistencies contained in the Bible and Christianity's other texts." [The books arguing against Christianity were] "stuff written by men-almost always men, almost always white men, not that that matters."

Wait, whatnow? Maybe that's because you're white. If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.


Maybe.  Has anybody ever done a study showing what percentage of published atheists are white, what percentage are male, and how that compares to, say, all published authors?

It does kind of seem like most "movement atheists" who blog (or write books, or tweet) in English about being atheist are white males, but I'm not aware of any hard statistics that back up that perception.

Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?


My point is that as people from a majority white English speaking male dominated culture, books read by white English speakers of that same male dominated culture are likely to have been written by white English speaking males. So? This says nothing about atheists worldwide, just about those in this culture. The author offers no claims that he's even tried to read any Chinese texts on athiesm. Maybe there aren't any. Maybe all the Chinese texts are just translations of white male athiests. I don't know.

But his argument seems to be demonizing white men as the archetypical Islamophobic athiests because white males mainly wrote what he's read. If I were from Iceland and all the rapists I ever met were Icelanders that doesn't mean I'd go around saying all the world's rapists are from Iceland.
 
2013-04-08 08:01:38 AM
Once the rest of the world wakes up, this thread will go full retard.

/Never go full retard.
 
2013-04-08 08:02:54 AM

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 08:04:03 AM

mekki: There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David.



Or Joerg.
 
2013-04-08 08:05:03 AM

doglover: mekki: There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David.


Or Joerg.


or Hercules
 
2013-04-08 08:05:46 AM

Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.


I'm sure your sample size justifies tarring millions of people with the same brush.
 
2013-04-08 08:06:51 AM

BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.


Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.
 
2013-04-08 08:07:38 AM
Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.
 
2013-04-08 08:10:43 AM

lumiere: Okay, I'll bite. I'm curious to know what makes people think the vagina is feared and repulsed in Islam. I'm sincerely curious if you don't mind elaborating on that.


msnbcmedia.msn.com


4.bp.blogspot.com

theycallmejane.files.wordpress.com

Or maybe this
Or this
Or this
Or this

The problem wasn't trying to find examples, the problem was narrowing it down.


BTW, if the dominionists get their way in the US, it won't be much different here. So I am an equal opportunity Theocracy hater.
 
2013-04-08 08:11:38 AM
(UK) BBC1 TV tonight
Panorama (a well respected TC documentary/current affairs program) investigates sharia law centers, in the UK. where women are instructed to stay in abusive and violent relationships because - hey it's the (sharia) law

Some aspects of Islam are an abomination - I say that, not as an atheist, but as a thinking, feeling human being.

Other people - who have a stake in believing in sky fairies generally, and who have been indoctrinated by their own old books of stupid, contradictory, inhuman laws, may be more inclined to cut Islam some slack.

I don't
 
2013-04-08 08:12:57 AM
Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.
 
2013-04-08 08:13:08 AM
I wonder if it's willful ignorance or derp that people don't seem to get that people in power are the ones who do bad things, not their religions... well except for Islam... in that particular case, certain really bad things are required for non-believers such as stoning, beheading, jiza, etc. I am sure there is at least one or two other religions that advocate similar things, but I really can't think of any off the top of my head.
 
2013-04-08 08:13:31 AM

log_jammin: adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.

The point is that Islam is particular bad NOW, not thousands of years ago.


Tell that to the literally stateless Palestinians, or even the Israeli Arabs whose political parties the other, Jewish parties ganged up on and tried to ban (which would have left the Israeli Arabs effectively disenfrachised - except the Supreme Court of Israel overturned this attempt). Or tell this to those who died in Iraq after a "Christian" president decided to go to war there. Or tell that to gays in Uganda and other African countries. Or, as I said, take a look around NOW and see who is out there undermining every traditional culture with its own values left in the world.

Arguing that Islam is particularly bad among the Abrahamic religions is like arguing the relative terribleness of MRSA, AIDS, and cancer.
 
2013-04-08 08:13:58 AM

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


No, that would mean having an irrational fear of religion, or an irrational fear of islam. As an atheist, I simply think islam is as make-believe as all the others.
 
2013-04-08 08:14:20 AM
It's not being bigoted to rail against a philosophy (that's what a religion is), particularly when you back it up with facts.

swahnhennessy: With that said, I think Greenwald does a pretty decent job of explaining things in the link provided within the article.


Not really.  He lists some truths about what happened between him and Harris in email/twitter exchanges and provides actual quotes but fails in omitting that Harris repeatedly BACKS UP his assertions with facts.  Greenwald calls it bigotry/islamophobia/racism without bringing to bear the facts that Harris does on WHY he feels Islam is threatening to the world.  This seems to escape a lot of people for some reason.

The concept that one religion is no more dangerous/peaceful than another is *NOT* self evident.  There's no reason to believe they have to be and in the case of Islam, current behaviors, teachings, and events point to it being more dangerous than the others, on the whole.
 
2013-04-08 08:14:34 AM

doglover: mekki: There was only so much you could have done with a stone and a slingshot unless your name was David.


Or Joerg.


can't watch the video at work, but is this a video on the effectiveness of the sling? because there's some really interesting videos out there on this subject... one video i watched had these 3 guys at a gravel pit holding a friendly competition, they set up some old toilets 100 yards away and proceeded to obliterate them using slings...

I was highly impressed by both their accuracy and the amount of destruction a golf ball sized stone could inflict... Once you realize how devastating a sling is, the story of David isn't quite as impressive... A clay bullet (sling ammo back then were kiln fired clan and shaped like a flat football) fired from a professional slinger (a shepherd who practices slinging daily to keep wolves away from the herd) could easily cave in the skull of a person, even one who was 7 or 8 ft tall...
 
2013-04-08 08:15:36 AM
Magical thinking in adults is sad.
 
2013-04-08 08:16:06 AM
cdn.gagbay.com

My view, for what it's worth
 
2013-04-08 08:16:59 AM

neversubmit: Magical thinking in adults is sad.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-08 08:18:19 AM

propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.


BSABSVR.
 
2013-04-08 08:19:48 AM
Personally, I think there's a whole lot of babying the Muslim world. Their brand of "kill the cartoonist while bicycling" terror is just as effective at achieving their goals extrajudicially as killing abortion doctors does for Christ-tards. Only doctors with special balls will do abortions now, and I STILL HAVEN'T FARKING SEEN THAT SOUTH PARK EPISODE GODDAMMIT.

This is ridiculous. Islam only wanted Jerusalem in the first place because the Jews wanted it. Mohammed only went there in a freaking dream written about in a book written down by folks who knew him after he died. I'm calling bullshiat on that.

Also, dead people don't come back to life or turn into crackers, and dicks and knives are NEVER to meet save in a life-threatening emergency. Also, Big Macs taste awesome. In short, fark you all.
 
2013-04-08 08:20:23 AM

I_C_Weener: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

BSABSVR.


for some reason i read that as "BEST ABS EVAR!"

I don't know why
 
2013-04-08 08:21:20 AM
Religions are retarded, but when they get crazy, NO ONE does crazy like Muslims. Even when the moderates here in the states "love religion", Muslims go that extra bit that makes me back away slowly.
 
2013-04-08 08:21:43 AM

neversubmit: Magical thinking in adults is sad.


oh i dunno... some people make a good living with magic...

www.magicallyfun.com

globalfusionproductions.com

a.abcnews.com
 
2013-04-08 08:22:03 AM

CeroX: can't watch the video at work, but is this a video on the effectiveness of the sling?


No it's a german guy with a fully automatic slingshot and 100+ other crazy slingshot based inventions. Most recently he made a condom gun that puts a condom on a cylindrical object using slingshot rubber bands as a power source.
 
2013-04-08 08:22:57 AM

bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.


Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.
 
2013-04-08 08:23:18 AM

doglover: CeroX: can't watch the video at work, but is this a video on the effectiveness of the sling?

No it's a german guy with a fully automatic slingshot and 100+ other crazy slingshot based inventions. Most recently he made a condom gun that puts a condom on a cylindrical object using slingshot rubber bands as a power source.


um... ouch?
 
2013-04-08 08:23:37 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.


fracking apostrophe. Mondays. Pfft.
 
2013-04-08 08:23:37 AM

bunner: neversubmit: Magical thinking in adults is sad.


4.bp.blogspot.com

Thanks for your help.
 
2013-04-08 08:23:52 AM

bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.


Oh, for Christ's sake, all you ever do is mock people who support Democrats, Republicans, or third party candidates; private sector solutions or government ones; religion or irreligion. Just like with Amos, I'm beginning to think all you ever do is complain that the world is shiatty and refuse to offer any goddamned solutions. We got your point in the first dozen threads. Knock it off and be constructive.
 
2013-04-08 08:24:12 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Personally, I think there's a whole lot of babying the Muslim world. Their brand of "kill the cartoonist while bicycling" terror is just as effective at achieving their goals extrajudicially as killing abortion doctors does for Christ-tards. Only doctors with special balls will do abortions now, and I STILL HAVEN'T FARKING SEEN THAT SOUTH PARK EPISODE GODDAMMIT.

This is ridiculous. Islam only wanted Jerusalem in the first place because the Jews wanted it. Mohammed only went there in a freaking dream written about in a book written down by folks who knew him after he died. I'm calling bullshiat on that.

Also, dead people don't come back to life or turn into crackers, and dicks and knives are NEVER to meet save in a life-threatening emergency. Also, Big Macs taste awesome. In short, fark you all.


i just wanted to say...

scm-l3.technorati.com
 
2013-04-08 08:24:40 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Knock it off and be constructive.


Like this?
 
2013-04-08 08:24:41 AM
Wait, maybe I'm just allergic to Islam. Is that ok?
 
2013-04-08 08:26:39 AM

I_C_Weener: Wait, maybe I'm just allergic to Islam. Is that ok?


yeah, but I don't think Benadryl is gonna help on that one...
 
2013-04-08 08:27:56 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: I_C_Weener: Wait, maybe I'm just allergic to Islam. Is that ok?

yeah, but I don't think Benadryl is gonna help on that one...


Islam is the peanut butter to my nut based allergy.
 
2013-04-08 08:28:40 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: neversubmit: Magical thinking in adults is sad.

oh i dunno... some people make a good living with magic...

[www.magicallyfun.com image 600x600]

[globalfusionproductions.com image 500x348]

[a.abcnews.com image 640x360]


Wow! Everybody is being so helpful. Thank you.
 
2013-04-08 08:28:59 AM

Marcintosh: [cdn.gagbay.com image 460x375]

My view, for what it's worth


So, does being an asshole include pointing out logical inconsistencies that are based on a faith-related issue, or is it only being an asshole if you launch into a prepared diatribe on theodicy, complete with Epicurus macros? Because if someone sincerely believes the Earth is 6,000 years old, I am going to disagree with them, publicly, for as long as it takes until they either accept it, or resort to ad hominem.
 
2013-04-08 08:30:30 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, for Christ's sake, all you ever do is mock people who support Democrats, Republicans, or third party candidates; private sector solutions or government ones; religion or irreligion. Just like with Amos, I'm beginning to think all you ever do is complain that the world is shiatty and refuse to offer any goddamned solutions. We got your point in the first dozen threads. Knock it off and be constructive.


To address the balance of your post, my only efforts have been to put forth the idea that, after eons of bumping into the same walls in the same rat maze, that it would, mayhaps, be beneficial to stand back a few feet and see if there is some more useful way to approach the business of living a life wherein one is aware of one's own mortality and yet it is usually spent trying to control the lives of others.  Cause so far, it's sucked fat walrus wang.  If that ain't constructive, I don't know what is..
 
2013-04-08 08:31:43 AM

neversubmit: HindiDiscoMonster: neversubmit: Magical thinking in adults is sad.

oh i dunno... some people make a good living with magic...

[www.magicallyfun.com image 600x600]

[globalfusionproductions.com image 500x348]

[a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

Wow! Everybody is being so helpful. Thank you.


we aim to please, you aim too please.
 
2013-04-08 08:32:17 AM
If the Internet has taught me anything, it's that there are a lot of people who know how to type with nothing useful to say.
 
2013-04-08 08:33:05 AM

The Envoy: Divinegrace: Every time I meet someone and think "Wow, this person is spiteful, hateful, and/or self-centered asshat", I ask them about their faith...every time I have asked I find they are either agnostic or atheist.

I will say this about agnostics and atheists...you folks are consistent.

I'm sure your sample size justifies tarring millions of people with the same brush.


I have meet tens of thousands of people so far, of those about a half a dozen times I have meet someone and was "Wowed" by their spite / hate / self-centered nature...not just a little bit spite/hateful, but WOW level. While I will not list the names of the people who were THAT gawd awful, I could if I had to...each and every one of them.

So I would say the percentage of people I have meet that were excessively spiteful / hateful / self-centered...so much so that I took the time to ask about their 'Faith" would be less than one half of one percent....of that less than one half of one percent, 100% were agnostic or atheist. I hope that clears things up.
 
2013-04-08 08:33:27 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.


"Don't be a dick."  No charge.
 
2013-04-08 08:33:44 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Marcintosh: [cdn.gagbay.com image 460x375]

My view, for what it's worth

So, does being an asshole include pointing out logical inconsistencies that are based on a faith-related issue, or is it only being an asshole if you launch into a prepared diatribe on theodicy, complete with Epicurus macros? Because if someone sincerely believes the Earth is 6,000 years old, I am going to disagree with them, publicly, for as long as it takes until they either accept it, or resort to ad hominem.


only if you beat a dead whore... oh wait, horse... though I suppose if you beat a dead whore that would just make you a really sick person.
 
2013-04-08 08:33:54 AM

bunner: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Knock it off and be constructive.

Like this?


Asking others to be constructive is constructive. I may have poisoned the well a bit, but I honestly didn't expect you to seriously consider it. Not this early in the morning.
 
2013-04-08 08:34:21 AM

WhoopAssWayne: [imageshack.us image 399x599]


And avoids GMOs.
 
2013-04-08 08:34:41 AM

jonny_q: If the Internet has taught me anything, it's that there are a lot of people who know how to type with nothing useful to say.


thegeekydream.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-08 08:34:44 AM

adamatari: log_jammin: adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.

The point is that Islam is particular bad NOW, not thousands of years ago.

Tell that to the literally stateless Palestinians, or even the Israeli Arabs whose political parties the other, Jewish parties ganged up on and tried to ban (which would have left the Israeli Arabs effectively disenfrachised - except the Supreme Court of Israel overturned this attempt). Or tell this to those who died in Iraq after a "Christian" president decided to go to war there. Or tell that to gays in Uganda and other African countries. Or, as I said, take a look around NOW and see who is out there undermining every traditional culture with its own values left in the world.

Arguing that Islam is particularly bad among the Abrahamic religions is like arguing the relative terribleness of MRSA, AIDS, and cancer.


What about the stateless palestenians in Jordan?  Can we lay that at the feet of the muslims?

If you are trying to score a "point" against judiasm because of what political parties in Israel tried to do (which is BS), you also have to give them a point for what the Israeli court did for those parties.

What is happening to gays in uganda is bad, but there are dozens of Islamic coutries that are doing worse.
 
2013-04-08 08:34:48 AM

bunner: omnibus_necanda_sunt: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, for Christ's sake, all you ever do is mock people who support Democrats, Republicans, or third party candidates; private sector solutions or government ones; religion or irreligion. Just like with Amos, I'm beginning to think all you ever do is complain that the world is shiatty and refuse to offer any goddamned solutions. We got your point in the first dozen threads. Knock it off and be constructive.

To address the balance of your post, my only efforts have been to put forth the idea that, after eons of bumping into the same walls in the same rat maze, that it would, mayhaps, be beneficial to stand back a few feet and see if there is some more useful way to approach the business of living a life wherein one is aware of one's own mortality and yet it is usually spent trying to control the lives of others.  Cause so far, it's sucked fat walrus wang.  If that ain't constructive, I don't know what is..


So... YOLO?
 
2013-04-08 08:34:51 AM

bunner: omnibus_necanda_sunt: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, for Christ's sake, all you ever do is mock people who support Democrats, Republicans, or third party candidates; private sector solutions or government ones; religion or irreligion. Just like with Amos, I'm beginning to think all you ever do is complain that the world is shiatty and refuse to offer any goddamned solutions. We got your point in the first dozen threads. Knock it off and be constructive.

To address the balance of your post, my only efforts have been to put forth the idea that, after eons of bumping into the same walls in the same rat maze, that it would, mayhaps, be beneficial to stand back a few feet and see if there is some more useful way to approach the business of living a life wherein one is aware of one's own mortality and yet it is usually spent trying to control the lives of others.  Cause so far, it's sucked fat walrus wang.  If that ain't constructive, I don't know what is..


Christ, this thread moves fast. Sorry about that.
 
2013-04-08 08:35:26 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: I_C_Weener: Wait, maybe I'm just allergic to Islam. Is that ok?

yeah, but I don't think Benadryl is gonna help on that one...


I don't know. It'll knock him out for a couple of hours so he doesn't have deal with Islam.
 
2013-04-08 08:36:16 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Asking others to be constructive is constructive. I may have poisoned the well a bit, but I honestly didn't expect you to seriously consider it. Not this early in the morning.


So is taking one's own advice.  I've been up all night.  Assumptions.  Humanity's hotshot app.  This is where you keep blowing ME sh*t because "Jesus is stupid."
 
2013-04-08 08:37:17 AM

mekki: HindiDiscoMonster: I_C_Weener: Wait, maybe I'm just allergic to Islam. Is that ok?

yeah, but I don't think Benadryl is gonna help on that one...

I don't know. It'll knock him out for a couple of hours so he doesn't have deal with Islam.


good point... Benadryl... is there anything it can't do?
 
2013-04-08 08:38:48 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Benadryl... is there anything it can't do?


www.moviewatchlist.com

Mo tussin!
 
2013-04-08 08:39:11 AM

Marcintosh: [cdn.gagbay.com image 460x375]

My view, for what it's worth


Yes, but see...the problem with that is the part of: THEY POST THEIR BELIEFS ON FACEBOOK

When you make a *public* profession (and even if your Fb is set to private, you're still allowing your selected audience to see), that invites return commentary. That is in fact, largely the friggen point of people posting such.

Or to quote Ray Gillette, "I'm sorry, did you want to hear what I think, or just what you want to hear?"

Now someone posts Rainbow Bridge because their cat just died, yeah you're an asshole if you go in...because they're NOT sharing to debate *or* convince others whether or not there's a rainbow bridge, or a heaven, or a heaven where we get to see our dead pets again.

But when you someone says stupid shiat to that person grieving like 'Everything happens for a reason!!!'...yeah I'm likely to take umbridge. When someone toots their own horn because they're PRAYING for the people of Haiti ...I'm likely to point out how farking useless that is, and suggest people do something that involves them actually getting off their farking ass in order to get those warm fuzzies they want.

And sure, many believers dump ALL such thing into the same asshole can. Because that's much easier than defending the asinine shiat that comes out of their mouths. If they weren't lazy, they wouldn't be spouting such shiat, so of course the same folks will take the lazy path there too.

AND it's so farking self centered that people don't even take a second to realize how farking offensive some of it is. Like spamming a page about how your prayer circle helped you get pregnant and it was due to faith blah blah blah...to people who've had miscarriages and fertility problems. Apparently their Jesus picks and chooses? Or they're better people?  Or the farkery of 'everything happens for a reason!!!'

/isn't on facebook anymore, though this isn't why
 
2013-04-08 08:40:34 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Marcintosh: [cdn.gagbay.com image 460x375]

My view, for what it's worth

So, does being an asshole include pointing out logical inconsistencies that are based on a faith-related issue, or is it only being an asshole if you launch into a prepared diatribe on theodicy, complete with Epicurus macros? Because if someone sincerely believes the Earth is 6,000 years old, I am going to disagree with them, publicly, for as long as it takes until they either accept it, or resort to ad hominem.


Jesus said to turn the other cheek. You are more of a jihad type.

Go fight the good fight. Make friends. Win hearts.
 
xcv
2013-04-08 08:42:06 AM

RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??


Not what they use to be. Now the major ones mostly serve as a fertile environment for conspiracy theories, science denialism, a forum for airing personal vendettas against other atheists/skeptics and other various agendas that have little to do with atheism/skepticism.
 
2013-04-08 08:42:38 AM
I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.
 
2013-04-08 08:42:39 AM

bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by as long and you don't harm others and are prepared to live with the consequences.


There, fix by an atheist.
 
2013-04-08 08:44:09 AM

xcv: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

Not what they use to be. Now the major ones mostly serve as a fertile environment for conspiracy theories, science denialism, a forum for airing personal vendettas against other atheists/skeptics and other various agendas that have little to do with atheism/skepticism.


and don't forget...
www.myneighborsfoundation.org
how meta... a convention about conventions...
 
2013-04-08 08:45:54 AM

vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.


Never heard a minister give a sermon on the evils of Islam or Catholicism. I have read a lot on Fark though. So, the churches you go to must be a lot like Fark
 
2013-04-08 08:48:06 AM
I know a bit about history and especially about history of religion.

You have to know that our holy books have changed very little since 800. That brings a lot of problems to the table when we read them today as our values have changed for the best. Back in the day, it was seen like the constitution is today, or perhaps the bill of rights. You shall not steal, ect. These were and still are the basis of our laws. Back then, and still now in some countries, this only applies to the people that live under your ruler. So if you are an afghan, "thou shall not kill" applies to your neighbor, not the American soldier.

Religion has always been a force to instill basic values, but now those values have evolved and not everyone in the world has evolved with the western values. You dont hear about women's rights in Pakistan, nor do you hear a debate about rape in Soudan. This is normal and we live in an interesting time in history, as this has changed tremendously in the last 100 years. Old organised religions who has been founded on rock solid foundations of morality find themselves against quick changing christians groups who supports the new morality. In the end, most religious group will put in morality values and stick to them. And to top this off our understanding of the universe and science is leaping forwards at a tremendous rate, this is the golden age of technology. Our views are now mondial.

So if i start a new religion with all of the new values and stick to them as my rock, lets say all of the old testament rules+"do upon others as you wish they do upon you"+declaration of human rights+geneva convention+respect to all of the diversity of human life+protection of the environment and protection and spread of knowledge, well im sure id get a lot of converts. This however, in 100 years might be obsolete, yet as I am standing now I cant think any change to those values would be good change.

What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.

You see the point? Our values evolve, as we are evolving into better humans. There are still new discoveries and this mondialisation thing might do a lot of harm, but has shown to us that our values and not the same everywhere on earth, as our technology isnt the same either. To become better, and perhaps to show that religion is perhaps an obstolete need of the past, we need to make sure everyone gets it. Bombing them into the stone age isnt the right way to do it, yet, if Cortez didnt wipe out the Atzcan priesthood they might have resisted a God that doesnt allow the ripping of bleeding beating hearts from the chest of victims.

And Cortez was, in my book, a freaking villian.

So what do we do? Go rogue against all religion ( Athiests) seems the path of so many now, yet to say to people 100 years in the past that dont get it because its not god who raises the sun everyday its the earth thats spinning seems a bit off. Perhaps the best solution would be worldwide education, but still some humans are genetically stupid. Also its hard to convince someone that lives in poverty that there ISNT a better world when he dies if he does the right thing. It is so easy to be evil ( act against values, even yours ) when you are starving.
 
2013-04-08 08:48:42 AM

I_C_Weener: vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.

Never heard a minister give a sermon on the evils of Islam or Catholicism. I have read a lot on Fark though. So, the churches you go to must be a lot like Fark


The minister for the church of Fark:
farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-04-08 08:52:32 AM
omnibus_necanda_sunt: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, for Christ's sake, all you ever do is mock people who support Democrats, Republicans, or third party candidates; private sector solutions or government ones; religion or irreligion. Just like with Amos, I'm beginning to think all you ever do is complain that the world is shiatty and refuse to offer any goddamned solutions. We got your point in the first dozen threads. Knock it off and be constructive.

To address the balance of your post, my only efforts have been to put forth the idea that, after eons of bumping into the same walls in the same rat maze, that it would, mayhaps, be beneficial to stand back a few feet and see if there is some more useful way to approach the business of living a life wherein one is aware of one's own mortality and yet it is usually spent trying to control the lives of others.  Cause so far, it's sucked fat walrus wang.  If that ain't constructive, I don't know what is..


Humans are hierarchical animals. When placed under stress, or even simply given a task, a leader figure usually emerges. Your issue is that said figures that emerge very rarely best meet the qualifications for solving the problem at hand and directing the energies of others toward doing so. In fact, they create (via imagination or physical artifice) additional problems so as to maintain their authority.

This is all true, no?

The cycle of virtue-indolence-evil-ruin-rebirth-virtue is as predictable and ineluctable as the tides. You seek to break the cycle, rather than ride it. You can no more break the cycle than make y=sin(x) exceed 1.

I supposed I asked you a trick question. There is nothing constructive to do, in your definition of constructive; not anything that the average private individual could realistically expect to do without relying a great deal on luck, and even then it would only roil and shift the cycle, not break it.

Society, the Game of Life, if you will, can tolerate all manner of cheating and dickery. The one thing society doesn't tolerate is not playing the Game at all, because then that makes them question why they are playing, either. That's uncomfortable.

I reverse my previous criticisms. You are a brave individual. My initial reaction shows what you are up against.

te saluto, pie vagans.
 
2013-04-08 08:55:01 AM

Lorelle: OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


Not only that, the priests also talked to you about Catholicism!
 
2013-04-08 08:55:09 AM
I have the same problem with Islam that I have with any other religion, and that's when they try to codify their religious beliefs into law to force them on others. Christianity used to be absolutely horrible about that as well, but most of the western world has moved on to more secular governments where freedom of thought is protected. Not so much in Islamic nations. There are a shiatload of Muslim countries out there where Sharia law is the law of the land. Not to mention the attempts, such as the whole Danish cartoon incident, where they attempt to force the rest of the WORLD to act within the confines of their beliefs.
 
2013-04-08 08:56:59 AM

Lonestar: So what do we do? Go rogue against all religion ( Athiests) seems the path of so many now


I need to point out something REALLY important to you. I am not an atheist because religion is 'bad'. I am an atheist because religion (all of them) aren't true. I remain open to evidence, but I am also very skeptical that any will ever be produced. I don't think there's any god/s, just as I don't think there are any unicorns, or that homeopathy does what it claims.

Now, I happen to think that religion overall, IS bad...but that has nothing to do with my atheism. If it could be demonstrated to me that there was a religion we could indeed call 'good' in every respect (hypothetically let's make it airtight) I would then agree that it is 'good', but I would not agree that it is true. I could not magically have belief simply because it was good. It would have to be something I felt was demonstrated to be true.

I spoke only for myself, but you'll find that's also most atheists. I've never met a one who was an atheist purely because they thought all religion was bad. And I know of more than a few atheists who think religion might actually be a good idea. I'm open to the latter, and as such have been keeping abreast of Dan Dennett's research in this area.

Anyhoo, important point I think. Very important.
 
2013-04-08 08:57:22 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: This is all true, no?

The cycle of virtue-indolence-evil-ruin-rebirth-virtue is as predictable and ineluctable as the tides. You seek to break the cycle, rather than ride it. You can no more break the cycle than make y=sin(x) exceed 1.

I supposed I asked you a trick question. There is nothing constructive to do, in your definition of constructive; not anything that the average private individual could realistically expect to do without relying a great deal on luck, and even then it would only roil and shift the cycle, not break it.

Society, the Game of Life, if you will, can tolerate all manner of cheating and dickery. The one thing society doesn't tolerate is not playing the Game at all, because then that makes them question why they are playing, either. That's uncomfortable.

I reverse my previous criticisms. You are a brave individual. My initial reaction shows what you are up against.

te saluto, pie vagans.


ewwww... Vegan pie? too many damn veggies impregnated in that meat for me.
 
2013-04-08 08:57:58 AM

poot_rootbeer: Lorelle: OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.

Not only that, the priests also talked to you about Catholicism!


baziiiiing....
 
2013-04-08 08:59:01 AM

Lady Indica: Now, I happen to think that religion overall, IS bad...but that has nothing to do with my atheism. If it could be demonstrated to me that there was a religion we could indeed call 'good' in every respect (hypothetically let's make it airtight) I would then agree that it is 'good'


It is tough to find a bone to pick with Jainism...
 
2013-04-08 08:59:09 AM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Humans are hierarchical animals. When placed under stress, or even simply given a task, a leader figure usually emerges.


And boy can we pick them!

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Society, the Game of Life, if you will, can tolerate all manner of cheating and dickery. The one thing society doesn't tolerate is not playing the Game at all, because then that makes them question why they are playing, either. That's uncomfortable.


Finding out that you're just supporting user application error should be.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: You are a brave individual.


More like bone weary.

I don't speak Lain.   :  )

Carry on.
 
2013-04-08 08:59:42 AM

Lonestar: And Cortez was, in my book, a freaking villian.


Meant to add in my original, I totally agree with you there.
 
2013-04-08 09:01:08 AM

I_C_Weener: vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.

Never heard a minister give a sermon on the evils of Islam or Catholicism. I have read a lot on Fark though. So, the churches you go to must be a lot like Fark


It's true.  Religions don't like each other.  It's very tribal.
 
2013-04-08 09:03:15 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.


So, you are an atheist then?
 
2013-04-08 09:03:36 AM

liam76: Jainism


Santhara. Though one might argue that a person is only self harming, I do not think one could claim because it only harms themselves it's not 'bad'.

But I no, I wouldn't be worried about them harming me due to their beliefs.
 
2013-04-08 09:05:02 AM

Lonestar: What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.


What in the name of Jupiter's cock are you ranting  about?

I've seen cats walking across keyboards make more coherent posts.
 
2013-04-08 09:06:23 AM
FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.
 
2013-04-08 09:07:35 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Marcintosh: [cdn.gagbay.com image 460x375]

My view, for what it's worth

So, does being an asshole include pointing out logical inconsistencies that are based on a faith-related issue, or is it only being an asshole if you launch into a prepared diatribe on theodicy, complete with Epicurus macros? Because if someone sincerely believes the Earth is 6,000 years old, I am going to disagree with them, publicly, for as long as it takes until they either accept it, or resort to ad hominem.

only if you beat a dead whore... oh wait, horse... though I suppose if you beat a dead whore that would just make you a really sick person.


sidesalad.net

I'm with you boys
 
2013-04-08 09:08:42 AM

I_C_Weener: Never heard a minister give a sermon on the evils of Islam


I can honestly say i haven't been to church since before 2001, so i know not what is being said within the walls of them, but i can tell you it wasn't atheists who were protesting the "ground zero" mosque. It wasn't atheists who said God allowed 9/11 to happen because we let gay people live together. It wasn't an atheist who killed six sikh congregants mistaking them for muslims...

And more anecdotal, the loudest people who speak out against islam in my family and at my work aren't atheists either...
 
2013-04-08 09:09:13 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?


I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.
 
2013-04-08 09:09:38 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,


How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-08 09:10:28 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


There's some dispute as to who said it, but that reminded me of this quote:

The trouble with some of us is that we have been inoculated with small doses of Christianity which keep us from catching the real thing.
 
2013-04-08 09:11:15 AM

Lady Indica: Lonestar: So what do we do? Go rogue against all religion ( Athiests) seems the path of so many now

I need to point out something REALLY important to you. I am not an atheist because religion is 'bad'. I am an atheist because religion (all of them) aren't true. I remain open to evidence, but I am also very skeptical that any will ever be produced. I don't think there's any god/s, just as I don't think there are any unicorns, or that homeopathy does what it claims.

Now, I happen to think that religion overall, IS bad...but that has nothing to do with my atheism. If it could be demonstrated to me that there was a religion we could indeed call 'good' in every respect (hypothetically let's make it airtight) I would then agree that it is 'good', but I would not agree that it is true. I could not magically have belief simply because it was good. It would have to be something I felt was demonstrated to be true.

I spoke only for myself, but you'll find that's also most atheists. I've never met a one who was an atheist purely because they thought all religion was bad. And I know of more than a few atheists who think religion might actually be a good idea. I'm open to the latter, and as such have been keeping abreast of Dan Dennett's research in this area.

Anyhoo, important point I think. Very important.


I think you didnt understand the point: what we view "good" is because of our values, and since our values have changed ( for the better ) in the last 100 years this has brought up lots of interesting concept. You could read my whole post as a "why im an Athiest", but it wouldnt be right, as it more of a thought experiment.

Now for my real views on religion right now, and this might change.
I believe in my values right now, and they may evolve over time. If a religion ( a group ) would exist to convert people to my present values, Id follow it. Wouldnt believe in a deity. However there might be such a group in the future but they would stay on the solidity of their core values, even if the western values evolve. Perhaps in 100 years we will find it inhuman to let women give birth in such a painful manner, so ban sex.

Ill be 140 then, so id be ok with that.
 
2013-04-08 09:14:05 AM

propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.


It usually goes like this:

Atheist says something critical against Christianity.
Christians say "Well, you don't have the guts to say those things against the ebil Muslims."
Atheist then says something critical against Islam.
Christians say "ZOMG ISLAMOPHOBE!"
 
2013-04-08 09:15:15 AM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,

How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

[i560.photobucket.com image 512x668]


not the way you are using it... that is referring to the day of judgement, when the world will be judged.

/I just love false equivalency.
 
2013-04-08 09:16:07 AM

Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.


Birth control, for starters.  It does more to alleviate human suffering than all pious platitudes ever brought down the mountain.
 
2013-04-08 09:16:42 AM

Gunther: Lonestar: What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.

What in the name of Jupiter's cock are you ranting  about?

I've seen cats walking across keyboards make more coherent posts.


Ahh the internet, full of people that want to read only a few lines of text and figure out what the other guy means. If its not in the established brackets its too complicated.

One thought I was defending religion, I wasnt.
I wasnt cheering for Atheism either.

Read the whole post, use and free your mind. Or you will ( or perhaps you are ) caught up by some preacher.
 
2013-04-08 09:16:46 AM
any time you try and justify an unjustifiable action by saying, "god told me to do it" is evil.  Regardless of which specific cult it is.
 
2013-04-08 09:17:26 AM
I find funny how atheism, which used to be "does not believe in deities" is now believed to mean "hate religion".

Pretty sad from a group that declares itself superior.

But hey, it makes most believe that they are the "cool" ones.


/does not consider myself part of either "sides"
 
2013-04-08 09:18:18 AM

liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.


How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"
 
2013-04-08 09:18:26 AM
Atheism is Religiphobia.
 
2013-04-08 09:20:24 AM
dfxdeimos: Ah, another hyperbole bound apologist that refuses to recognize the special dangers presented by an ideology that represents itself as the final and unalterable truth.

Which is different from any other religion ... how, exactly?

When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for adultery should be stoning - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for theft or robbery should involve whippings or cutting off the hands of the accused - that is a problem.


Have you asked hundreds of millions muslims about this? ...Or did you just watch Fox News a lot? You sound teabagger.

And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

The NT mandates burning apostates (see my prev post, the one with the pic).

But I am sure that you would find a similar number of Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus that would say the same thing, right? Get farking real.

Here's the fun thing about religion:


It doesn't matter what the actual scriptures say.


People will interpret them any way they want and use them as an excuse to do whatever they want. Zeitgeist is far more important than the words. For instance, the gas bombers in Tokyo were buddhists. Hindus frequently attack muslims and christians -- and you know how women are treated in that part of the world, right? Christian Europe used to be a lot like present day Iran, and would still be like that if we secularists hadn't neutered christianity in the 1700s. You might also look into the way christians have traditionally treated jews and other heathens up until the years 1945-48.
 
2013-04-08 09:20:58 AM

Plant Rights Activist: any time you try and justify an unjustifiable action by saying, "god told me to do it" is evil.  Regardless of which specific cult it is.


or simply insane.
www.cybercauldron.co.uk
 
2013-04-08 09:22:16 AM

imfallen_angel: I find funny how atheism, which used to be "does not believe in deities" is now believed to mean "hate religion".

Pretty sad from a group that declares itself superior.

But hey, it makes most believe that they are the "cool" ones.


/does not consider myself part of either "sides"


"you shall know a tree by the fruit it bears."
 
2013-04-08 09:22:45 AM

Lonestar: Ahh the internet, full of people that want to read only a few lines of text and figure out what the other guy means. If its not in the established brackets its too complicated.


 If you often find people are failing to understand you, perhaps you should learn to communicate more effectively.

I've read through that post three times now, and I still have no idea WTF you are talking about.
 
2013-04-08 09:23:52 AM

BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"


 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:24 AM

Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?


...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:36 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: not the way you are using it... that is referring to the day of judgement, when the world will be judged.


According to who? I'm sure all those people who were burned at the stake would like to know.

...But again; it's the zeitgeist that counts, not the holy texts.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:58 AM

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


is that better?
 
2013-04-08 09:28:24 AM

Gunther: Lonestar: Ahh the internet, full of people that want to read only a few lines of text and figure out what the other guy means. If its not in the established brackets its too complicated.

 If you often find people are failing to understand you, perhaps you should learn to communicate more effectively.

I've read through that post three times now, and I still have no idea WTF you are talking about.


Good, then the post wasnt meant for you.
 
2013-04-08 09:28:39 AM

IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


kind of makes me think of others who were big on the whole purity thing...
www.thebreman.org
 
2013-04-08 09:31:26 AM
Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence?  Color me shocked.
 
2013-04-08 09:32:06 AM

IlGreven: I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


Why is Dawkins lumped in with Harris anyway? I've read both their books. "God Delusion" is Dawkins building an argument against belief in gods. "End of Faith" is an anti-islamic rant. Reading (EoF) was like watching everything Fox News ever said about Islam, over and over.
 
2013-04-08 09:33:08 AM

liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.


Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?
 
2013-04-08 09:33:21 AM

IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.
 
2013-04-08 09:33:32 AM
If you think gay sex is aberrant, you are a homophobe. This isn't necessarily true, but it is accepted as fact.

This type of terminology was bound to bite an ass or two. NTTATWWT.
 
2013-04-08 09:34:01 AM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: not the way you are using it... that is referring to the day of judgement, when the world will be judged.

According to who? I'm sure all those people who were burned at the stake would like to know.


According to the scriptures incidentally... it's a metaphor, it is not advocating an action, it is telling the consequences of ones actions. Read it again. and Again if need be.

also PROTIP: People abuse religious texts for their own nefarious purposes.

...But again; it's the zeitgeist that counts, not the holy texts.

That's just like your opinion man.
 
2013-04-08 09:37:00 AM

bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.


Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!

/See, I can make excuses for "perceived" horrible behavior, too!
//Lower percentage of atheists in prison than in the free population.
///Higher percentage of Christians in prison than in the free population.
 
2013-04-08 09:38:18 AM

BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.

Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?


If every muslim woke up tomorrow and decided they no longer believed we woudl still have the ideas and beliefs of islam.

You can dislike or hate any school of thought ro religion and be fine with people who follow it.  It is nothing like hating a race where you must hate the people.
 
2013-04-08 09:38:56 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


i290.photobucket.com

Poor lil boy, 17 years!?
 
2013-04-08 09:39:14 AM

Super_pope: Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence?  Color me shocked.


The problem is that too many people are too ignorant to know the difference between simple customs and tenants of Islam and too wrapped up in being right to realize that it's not the belief system that's the problem but the behaviors and social conventions. You're never going to convince people to give up an established, organized religion but once you figure out that it's the violence and bigotry that you hate and not the religion then you've really made some progress and you've got a chance to actually fix something.
 
2013-04-08 09:40:41 AM

Lizardking: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

I dont love Islam. I dont hate it either. Its just another religion to me, I respect the people who practice it and dont try to tell them they are wrong.

If you hate or fear anyone because of a religion, youre a farking idiot. Your religion and the ignorance it caused in you is the problem, not the other persons religion.


If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...
 
2013-04-08 09:41:43 AM

IlGreven: bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.

Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!

/See, I can make excuses for "perceived" horrible behavior, too!
//Lower percentage of atheists in prison than in the free population.
///Higher percentage of Christians in prison than in the free population.


nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God

Some denominations also believe that you must also be baptized which is why I did not include it in the primary list as all denominations must agree on those 4 if they are Christian.
 
2013-04-08 09:42:41 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


No one person speaks for atheists. It is not a religion nor a cult nor an organization nor anything. It is a personal belief, no different then someone who believes in God. Richard Dawkins is an attention whore trying to get publicity for his book by impying that he speaks for atheists and that all atheists are like him.
 
2013-04-08 09:42:48 AM

IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


Oh man, PZ Myers; there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember adding him to my RSS feed a decade ago when he mostly wrote about biology and evolution. I unsubscribed a few years ago when his posts started being mostly about how everyone who wasn't his precise sub-type of atheism was crazy/stupid/evil. What's happened to him?
 
2013-04-08 09:44:40 AM

IlGreven: Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!


Your taking the words of idiots as a true representation of the faith doesn't bode well for your credibility.

Sheep go to heaven, Goats go to hell.

Sheep: People who do good for those in need, regardless of any religious drive to do so.
Goats: People who refuse to do good for those in need, and refuse to do so in the name of God.
 
2013-04-08 09:45:12 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:


Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you? Yes some sects of Christianity DO have additional conditions for salvation, but the bible (and Jesus' dialogue therein) were pretty farking specific that the only thing required was belief in him.

Illustrated also by the thief next to him, who was getting in...not cause he was sorry or wasn't a bastard, but because he recognized Jesus as 'the son of god'.

/has no need for get out of hell free cards
 
2013-04-08 09:45:20 AM

Voiceofreason01: Super_pope: Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence? Color me shocked.

The problem is that too many people are too ignorant to know the difference between simple customs and tenants of Islam and too wrapped up in being right to realize that it's not the belief system that's the problem but the behaviors and social conventions


Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.
 
2013-04-08 09:46:54 AM

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.


Why did we need any more postings?
/All religion is delusion. Morality without religion? UNPOSSIBLE!!!
 
2013-04-08 09:46:57 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God


Nope. You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.
 
2013-04-08 09:46:59 AM

PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...


What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.
 
2013-04-08 09:47:30 AM

Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?


Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:38 AM

jso2897: IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.


I didn't mean atheists, I meant atheism.  The biggest target for atheism should be people who would become atheists "but for" something that atheists do that offends them (and like it or not, fence-sitters in religion see atheists as a group, not as individuals).  I think the crap spouted by Atheism+ does more to drive potential "converts" away from doing so than anything Sam Harris does.

...and now that I think about it, A+ has, in fact, been big on "locking out" those atheists who don't agree with them.  That's the big thing, and that does harm those atheists that do want to be activists like Dawkins and do have something to contribute.  The prime example in this one os the Thunderf00t situation.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:44 AM

liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.

Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?

If every muslim woke up tomorrow and decided they no longer believed we woudl still have the ideas and beliefs of islam.

You can dislike or hate any school of thought ro religion and be fine with people who follow it.  It is nothing like hating a race where you must hate the people.


Fair enough, makes enough sense to me ;-)
 
2013-04-08 09:49:37 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.


Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.
 
2013-04-08 09:49:56 AM

doglover: And people who drive slow in the passing lane. I hate those guys. Give me a millitany atheist and Jihad Joe any day of the week.


I agree, Next in line: I don't like the automotive engineers who place the last bolt, on what should be a 5 minute fix, in such a place that it is impossible to remove without spending an hour, having to use a special bent out of shape tool and having to scrape your knuckles to remove. Then to add insult to injury, another hour to replace it! They're the same ones who makes the firewall side sparkplugs on a transverse mount V6 impossible to get at.

Here's a simple rule, if you design anything that has removable parts that you expect someone to remove eventually, they damn well make sure that it can be removed!
 
2013-04-08 09:50:28 AM

liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.


Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.
 
2013-04-08 09:51:04 AM

Mugato: tenpoundsofcheese: atheists are intolerant.
the article is about them being hatemongers.

happy that you agree.

You don't see the irony of classifying an entire group of people as intolerant?


10lbs: I hate all intolerant people.  And atheists.
 
2013-04-08 09:52:44 AM

namatad: Why did we need any more postings?
/All religion is delusion. Morality without religion? UNPOSSIBLE!!!


So far, all the Fark threads about religion and such have only managed to show me one thing.. and that is that there is one side of this debate that proves itself to believe in being self-righteous, self-important, belief that they are better, smarter and are very egotistic, and will project to the other side, what they claim to be "clean from doing".  Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.

What to guess which side it is?
 
2013-04-08 09:52:45 AM
Noted religious moralist:
Hitler (yes, I know, he was just pretending to be religious to gain support)
pedophile priests

oh never mind
It would be interesting to see a study on morality vs belief in god
 
2013-04-08 09:52:53 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

Yes, people would still kill other people because those reasons still would exist in our world. So people who murder for money, doesn't get solved one way or another with this issue. But no one would be killing for their deity. Now, the other idea Dennett gets into (well one of many) is that may also exist for some good that comes out of religion that would also be eliminated that doesn't exist without that meme. So, people would still be charitable and help each other out, but there'd be no comfort of the thought of an afterlife that they or their decedents would go to. They'd lose that comfort, and I'm sure the concept is VERY comforting. Our fears about death and ending can't exist in the manner that they do without religion. Afterlife beliefs are a very powerful coping mechanism. A comfort I envy, I sure do wish I thought it was true.

Anyhoo, they're interesting ideas, and Dennett is pretty awesome.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:17 AM

Plant Rights Activist: any time you try and justify an unjustifiable action by saying, "god told me to do it" is evil.  Regardless of which specific cult it is.


Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:35 AM
That should have been "WANT to guess" not "what"...

/Monday, still slightly asleep...
 
2013-04-08 09:56:03 AM
So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.
 
2013-04-08 09:56:38 AM

s2s2s2: You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.


THIS
I have never sinned. I give huge amounts of money to charity. And I didnt require religion to do.

imfallen_angel: Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.


I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?
 
2013-04-08 09:56:39 AM

Lonestar: What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.


I'VE ALWAYS SAID "WHAT WOOD HAPPEN IF ALIENS CAMW DOWN AND ONE WAS EVIL ALIENS AND WE HAD TO KILL THEM BUT THE ATHIESTS WERE FOLLOWING IT AND THEY WANTED IT TO BE A PRIEST." WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN? AND THEY CAN'T TELL ME.
 
2013-04-08 09:56:59 AM

Lady Indica: HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:

Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you? Yes some sects of Christianity DO have additional conditions for salvation, but the bible (and Jesus' dialogue therein) were pretty farking specific that the only thing required was belief in him.

Illustrated also by the thief next to him, who was getting in...not cause he was sorry or wasn't a bastard, but because he recognized Jesus as 'the son of god'.

/has no need for get out of hell free cards


uh yup, i was right the first time... citations:

Believing upon Jesus (the right Jesus) is a necessity to being saved: John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

We must turn from our wicked ways: Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." and also Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Just acknowledging Jesus isn't enough: Shortly after John 3:16, it tells us in verse 21, "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." Also, James 2:19-26 says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Some people claim that they are Christian, so that they feel they are going to heaven, but if they don't turn from their wicked lifestyle, then they aren't living up to their professed faith.

There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.
 
2013-04-08 09:57:55 AM

bunner: Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?

Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.


TOTAL hijack aside, but Dark Dungeons is my favorite Chick comic. Wish I had an IRL copy. :D And if you haven't seen this...enjoy... Cthulhu Tract
 
2013-04-08 09:58:11 AM

s2s2s2: HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God

Nope. You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.


nope... read my post to the Lady.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:49 AM

Uncle Tractor: And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

The NT mandates burning apostates (see my prev post, the one with the pic).


There are no good religions, only religions that haven't had the chance to do very much bad shiat yet.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:51 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.


Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?
 
2013-04-08 09:59:14 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


www.fakesteve.net
 
2013-04-08 10:02:16 AM

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.
 
2013-04-08 10:02:36 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.


welcome to moral relativism and reality.
Many things which today we consider immoral were once moral. Public hangings, castes systems, religions governments, cruel punishment of criminals, debtor prisons, debt bondage, and so on.
 
2013-04-08 10:03:24 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?


I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:01 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?


What an Obtusian may look like...
1.bp.blogspot.com

/Family Guy... is there anything they haven't done?
 
2013-04-08 10:04:04 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:10 AM

Lady Indica: But no one would be killing for their deity.


What it comes down to, they don't kill for their deity, they kill because they want to, they decided to, they either lead or follow blindly, in the same way people will kill for their king or country.

In all wars, people kill for an idea, nothing more, and the idea is a MacGuffin, for the dead, did the goal really mattered?

Nah, it's all about egos... wanting to be "right", so everyone selects a set of beliefs, justify themselves with it, some let it become their whole being, and become adamant about pursuing this beliefs regardless of anything else.  And this mediocre civilization where survival is too easy, people need something to justify their existence... which results in theist and atheist alike share that common bond.

Problem is, the more vocal ones on each sides are dicks.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:36 AM
It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...
 
2013-04-08 10:05:08 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise


I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:35 AM

namatad: I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?


Nope... read what you wrote....that is my point exactly... the self-righteousness... you just did it.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:47 AM

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


Name a Muslim theocracy that DOESN'T reinforce a 'brutal and harmful system of social norms'.
 
2013-04-08 10:07:51 AM

The Larch: tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.


Ain't you just a ray of glittering light from above.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:00 AM
"Saying inflammatory things about Islam isn't out of character for the New Atheists, since they're the kind of people who ask whether religion is the root of all evil and seriously debate the existence of God with believers. They say nasty things about Christians all the time, and, in fairness to them, countries that are governed by Islamic law have done horrible things (as have Christian nations and, it turns out, Buddhist countries too)."

Which of these religions is still forcing its adherents to do these horrible things?

/if you tell me which god, is not like the others
//then I'll call you Islamophobe
 
2013-04-08 10:08:01 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.


I'm sure it's not what you believe, but it IS what some sects of Christianity believe. The most basic is: believe in Jesus go to heaven. Many other sects tack on additional shiat (Catholics have more than a few additional rules, and I use them b/c I was raised Catholic and know it reeeeally well. ;)). Each sect believes their way is 'The One True Way' and uses various methods to demonstrate that their way is 'The One True Way'. Though as some faiths have modernized some have acknowledged there might be more than One True Way...but theirs remains the best and most ideal and TRUEST...of course. ;)

Point being, there's apparently lot of true ways, and one of 'em is just accept jesus go to heaven.

And check out Chick.com if your stomach can handle it. Fortunately Jack Chick (and his comics) doesn't represent any majority of Christianity.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:20 AM
The author's attempts at empathy are weak and unconvincing.  He disproves his own contentions.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:43 AM

PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.


Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.
 
2013-04-08 10:09:27 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.


Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.
 
2013-04-08 10:10:10 AM

Skeptigal: It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...


or not pray outside?
 
2013-04-08 10:10:28 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Bingo.

I grew up with an atheist Dad and a Catholic Mom.  I got pretty involved in church volunteering and youth leadership stuff, and never once did my Dad try to convince me that it was all BS.  He just let me figure out my own way and made sure I had access to a ridiculous number of books at all times.  And now I'm an agnostic humanist, for lack of a better term, which is cool with me.

There are assholes in every sub-grouping of humanity.  Just kind of how it goes.
 
2013-04-08 10:13:05 AM

liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.


I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting
 
2013-04-08 10:13:13 AM
What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide. You don't need God to be a good person, but you do need some way of differentiating good acts from bad, virtue from evil.

Here you go:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 10:13:23 AM
FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?
 
2013-04-08 10:15:14 AM

Divinegrace: I have meet tens of thousands of people so far, of those about a half a dozen times I have meet someone and was "Wowed" by their spite / hate / self-centered nature...not just a little bit spite/hateful, but WOW level. While I will not list the names of the people who were THAT gawd awful, I could if I had to...each and every one of them.

So I would say the percentage of people I have meet that were excessively spiteful / hateful / self-centered...so much so that I took the time to ask about their 'Faith" would be less than one half of one percent....of that less than one half of one percent, 100% were agnostic or atheist. I hope that clears things up.


Well, it clears things up but not in the way I think you hoped it did.  What you've actually admitted is that you have no idea how many of the remaining 99.995% of people who you thought didn't have a "spiteful/hateful/self-centred nature" were actually atheists.  This simply demonstrates that you've assumed that they're not atheists and that therefore you assume christians are somehow "better".  Taking this in to account, how then do we know that your opinion of that allegedly dastardly half dozen is not in any way coloured by your own obvious prejudices?  We don't and nor can we lend further statements from you much credence, coming as they do from somebody who is so obviously prejudiced.
 
2013-04-08 10:17:01 AM

Lady Indica: HindiDiscoMonster: There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.

I'm sure it's not what you believe, but it IS what some sects of Christianity believe. The most basic is: believe in Jesus go to heaven. Many other sects tack on additional shiat (Catholics have more than a few additional rules, and I use them b/c I was raised Catholic and know it reeeeally well. ;)). Each sect believes their way is 'The One True Way' and uses various methods to demonstrate that their way is 'The One True Way'. Though as some faiths have modernized some have acknowledged there might be more than One True Way...but theirs remains the best and most ideal and TRUEST...of course. ;)

Point being, there's apparently lot of true ways, and one of 'em is just accept jesus go to heaven.

And check out Chick.com if your stomach can handle it. Fortunately Jack Chick (and his comics) doesn't represent any majority of Christianity.


What I believe is that if you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the other things will come naturally just as par for the course.

I'll check out that link, but for now... i need FOOD bad... my blood sugar is probably -80 by now.
 
2013-04-08 10:18:07 AM
The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:18:14 AM

Gunther: IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

Oh man, PZ Myers; there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember adding him to my RSS feed a decade ago when he mostly wrote about biology and evolution. I unsubscribed a few years ago when his posts started being mostly about how everyone who wasn't his precise sub-type of atheism was crazy/stupid/evil. What's happened to him?


Reminded me of this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
http://skepsheik.blogspot.se/2012/09/congratulations-to-pz-myers.htm l
 
2013-04-08 10:18:35 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


And, I've never heard that the Tooth Fairy burned anyone alive for their beliefs.
 
2013-04-08 10:19:53 AM
Of course there are all degrees of Muslims, but if we're honest with ourselves, the spectrum doesn't run parallel alongside Christianity. The percentage of Christians who don't believe in contraception is something like 10%. Both the severity and prevalence of horrendous Islamic beliefs is much higher. When we talk about Islam, we're not just talking about "You shouldn't use condoms." Many Muslims believe women should be locked in their homes with no access to any situation that could possibly cause them to be exposed to any male other than their husband, and a clear majority of them at least believe that women should not be educated, and should be murdered if they ever decide that they don't want to be Muslims anymore.

Hours and hours of interviews exist such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2x32tG6-F0

If people like the man in this video were rare extremists, their views would not be dominating and setting the tone of culture in all Muslim countries (except possibly Turkey and Malaysia.) Christians who hate birth control aren't able to prevent it from being sold because they are fringe extremists. This man represents the median of culture in the Middle East.

Here is an article summarizing Pew Research data among worldwide Muslims:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41425/pew-report-13-of-us-muslims-sup po rt-al-qaeda-60-say-911-attacks-not-done-by-muslims-arabs-13-say-being- muslim-conflicts-w-modern-society-25-came-to-us-under-bush/

Approximately 1 out of 3 Muslims in the world supports Al Qaeda and thinks that suicide bombings are a justifiable sociopolitical tool for spreading and preserving the influence of Islam. The raw numbers can be found here: http://www.pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=19&survey=1&response=Oft e n/sometimes%20justified&mode=chart

These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

It's no secret that I am a critic of all religion, and I frequently go up against the regressive influence that Christianity has on American culture, but when it comes to dread destructive forces in the 21st century, there can be no doubt that Islam is public enemy number one.

And I will preempt anyone who might call me a bigot by insisting that there is no such thing as bigotry against an idea or set of ideas. I am not a racist, and I have no quarrel with people of Arabic descent, so long as they are not Muslims. Saying that I don't like Muslims is no different than someone saying that they don't like Republicans.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:15 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


www.critiques4geeks.com

While I have no innate disagreement with this broad scope admonition as a suitable basis for societal management, I can't hep but ponder as to the impetus of what we presently, as a culture, define as such.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:32 AM

cman: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry


It's not bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:04 AM
Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:27 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.


"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:21:39 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs?


The Middle East is (and was) far more complex than that. Arabs had a much more limited geographical/cultural range 2,000-3,000 years ago.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:48 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.


Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:00 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


I thought the priests stopped doing that when the kid hits puberty.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:46 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...


If Jesus was a skinny white guy in that part of the world in that era, let alone pale and sickly looking - as he was a carpenter, well before steel hammers, table saws and Makitas - the population would have nailed him up just for being weird looking, a la "Powder."
 
2013-04-08 10:26:15 AM

mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]


False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:21 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting


I never said "in and of itself".  Dearborn is heavily influenced by Amrican values, as it is in America.  There are very strict limits on what peopel can force others to do that you don't see in Islamic societies.

Once again a lot of complaints about nuance and myopic vision when you are making up arguments to attribute to me.

/Sarah Said, Jessica Mokdad, etc probably coudl say a few things about harmful societal norms if they were still alive.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:38 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:59 AM

give me doughnuts: Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.


Telling the truth about anything, while being disliked, earns one a phobia suffix.
 
2013-04-08 10:27:01 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular) usually "replace" religious dogma with "science" and "reason" as a way to justify treating people like crap. They don't do it because "God said so", they do it because someone else provided them a justification.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:14 AM
This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.


DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:48 AM

Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.


Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.
 
2013-04-08 10:32:56 AM

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.
 
2013-04-08 10:33:31 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?

I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.


I have often said we are all agnostics, whether we want to be or not. However, Agnosticism isn't about false dichotomies so much as it's about epistemology. Either there is an engineer ruling reality or not. It really is a dichotomy. Even if the engineer is the Universe itself, either it is conscious and makes decisions, like a god, or it's a machine, like nature. Can we know the truth? It's irrelevant, actually.
 
2013-04-08 10:34:30 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

More importantly...can you refute it?
 
2013-04-08 10:37:10 AM

Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)


Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.
 
2013-04-08 10:38:32 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?


Cultural critical mass.  There aren't enough of them to override the protections the state and federal constitutions afford to non-believers.

We've seen the small-town effect on non-believers in NY state though, with Orthodox Jews in the majority.
 
2013-04-08 10:39:48 AM
Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).
 
2013-04-08 10:42:35 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


Is it?  Serious question:  if the North Koreans believe and, more importantly, ACT like Lil Kim is a god, how is that atheist?
How is that distinguishable from every other religion?

Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...
 
2013-04-08 10:42:40 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


I think you're confusing Best Korea with the Soviet Union. The Soviets carried out quite a few atrocities (including anti-religious campaigns) under quite a few leaders... even after De-Stalinization.
 
2013-04-08 10:43:06 AM

Marine1: Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


Well, you have to take in consideration, before religion existed, it was peace/heaven on earth, wasn't it?  Then a book fell from the sky and BAM... nothing but wars.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:43:25 AM

NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


A parking lot?
 
2013-04-08 10:44:22 AM

Marine1: imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.

Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


I would agree...extremists of any stripe are potentially dangerous.
 
2013-04-08 10:44:28 AM

PunGent: Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...


I'm willing to bet that most atheist pray to the porcelain God on a regular basis.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:46:21 AM

vactech: NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

A parking lot?


It's a cookie!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:23 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


I'm extremely high, but I'll take a stab. You see, I believe this is it. Our ONLY shot, our only moment of existence. The only time when the things that make me...me ...come together to observe this remarkable universe. Star Stuff, 100%

As such, it's precious. Sacred, if you will...as the term does not have to be religious. People matter. Now matters. It's not about being utterly hedonistic. I could be. I'm a sex worker and a Dominatrix. I could live a *purely* hedonistic life the such of which I assure you...you cannot begin to imagine. Why would that make me happy? Or fulfilled? I DON'T live such a life, because it doesn't hold any real appeal for me. Your favorite food starts to pale if you eat it every damned day.

All of the concepts and ideals and 'morality' you ascribe to religion you accredit wrongly. They come from HUMANS. We have human morals, human ideals. Some of these evolve over time. farking children in ancient societies...wasn't seen as too bad. We do not think this today. Why? Where did this specific empathy develop? Advancement of knowledge. Steven Pinker addresses the decline of violence and why better than I could in his latest book. (Hint hint).

I live by my own rules and own ideals, but so does everyone. You may choose to model yours off a specific concept. Many of the things we adopt for ourselves are ideas and concepts we've come across expressed by others. But it boils down best for me in: Don't harm other people unnecessarily. Concept I got from Heinlein. People are not things. Granny Weatherwax.

We have innate behaviors that we intellectualize our morality around. Specifically it's very unlikely you'd be farking your parents, or your children...except that god said you couldn't. You likely find even the mention of the concept vile and disgusting. Yet some religious moralists claim that's NOT the case because incest porn is quite popular. But it's not popular because people WANT to fark their relatives, but because it's taboo. What is dangerous and forbidden...can be exciting. Stimulating. Provided you don't go too nuts with it. The people who enjoy it are rarely putting themselves in the porn, but are stimulated by observation.

We can observe many aspects of what we believe to be 'human' morality in our closest relations, apes and monkeys. And these things exist because they've been beneficial. So we deem them 'good'. No need to wrap mystical myths and magic around it.

When I die, I'm dead and gone. I don't always make the most of every moment...I'm human, and am not always mindful of the value of what little time I have in existence. And I'm far from perfect, I've got a temper. ;) But I'm a very ethical and honorable person. I've no trouble looking at who I see in the mirror.

And gosh darn it, people like me!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:53 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


The fact that you say "atheist LEADERS" indicates you've got a lot to learn about atheism.

Most of them don't have organized Sunday services, you know :)
 
2013-04-08 10:49:25 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.
 
2013-04-08 10:49:33 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.

You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.


Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well".  Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion
 
2013-04-08 10:50:44 AM

BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.


I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?
 
2013-04-08 10:52:56 AM

bunner: So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.


Yes, but even after we crack the encryption, some religious guy will say "original sin warped the code, THAT'S not the REAL truth"...

And, in a further wrinkle, if some large percent of us DON'T say that...will we still be human?
 
2013-04-08 10:54:42 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.


Ok, I forgot about him. My point stands. A single incident does not compare to millions of people cheering for terrorism and giving moral support and encouragement to suicide bombers and other jihadists.
 
2013-04-08 10:54:56 AM

NostroZ: Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well". Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion


What the hell kind of pansy-ass trolling is this? At least throw in a "Atheism is a religion", or a non-sequitur about Stalin, or something - this weaksauce you've got going right now just isn't going to cut it.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:37 AM

Voiceofreason01: Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:46 AM

Voiceofreason01: There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


No kidding, I've seen jerks everywhere in my life, regardless of their beliefs.

They all share a few things... one was that they always believed themselves "right" and justified, or just didn't care as it was their way or you were their enemy, and another thing was that they were jerks.

The whole ego thing that humans have is quite powerful.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:31 AM

Biological Ali: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:51 AM

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.
 
2013-04-08 11:03:06 AM
For the record, I'm "against" all religion, not just Islam.  If you keep it in your bedroom, I could care less, it's when you whip it out in public that we will have problems.

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2013-04-08 11:05:15 AM

Biological Ali: I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


There's a difference between tolerance and unacceptable behavior.  Sadly, people tend to adapt some point of view that can make something that for many is unacceptable, but for them, it's "normal".

Such a woman's treatment in some countries.  But the reality, without religion, in your very own country, some men would still/are still abusive toward women and only "fell remorse" if they go to jail for it.  No jail, they'd continue, and many return to their ways after being released.

How's racism going in the world? Do people keep their prejudice, do some act on purpose to feed it?

Do some people of a race cling to being part of their "culture", and claim intolerance when someone doesn't agree with their practices?

In my life, I've seen "minorities" be more racist, use it as a card, than others would care about race altogether.

I've seen jerks (major ones) claim "racism" because they were being jerks and told to stop.

Not really any difference in the essence of the topic.
 
2013-04-08 11:05:38 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.

Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.


I've never quite understood that. Then again, I pride myself on not identifying with Dawkins' opinions on quite a few things.

A shame, really. Guy has some valid points on evolution.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:06 AM

vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.


You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:39 AM
s2s2s2:
Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.

so religion is any group or organization or person or ideology that you disagree with or don't like?

/your definitions are all askew but it sounds like it's not religion you have a problem with but fanaticism. Which is a very different thing.
 
2013-04-08 11:09:47 AM

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.


Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!
 
2013-04-08 11:09:55 AM
I'm an atheist, and I don't hate Islam.  I don't hate any religion, nor the people who practice them.  Atheism =/= anti-theism.  I think a lot of people get that confused.  You can be both an atheist and an anti-theist, but they're not synonymous.  There's a lot of things about most organized religions I don't agree with, and a lot of things I'd like to see changed, but it's not my place to tell other people how to live, or that they're stupid for believing something I don't.....and vice versa.
 
2013-04-08 11:10:14 AM

s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.


Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?
 
2013-04-08 11:12:18 AM

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.


Religion "works?"  In what way?
 
2013-04-08 11:14:42 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?


It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.
 
2013-04-08 11:15:53 AM

vactech: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!


And prior to that there was the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Look man, religion exploded in Egypt around 4100 years ago and so did human civilization. Writing. Farming. Mathematics. Dentistry. Elaborate burial ritual, recreational games like bowling, hell BEER WAS INVENTED in Egypt around that time!

Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.
 
2013-04-08 11:16:20 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?


In some cases it has a kick-ass art collection and rakes in millions of dollars without paying taxes.
 
2013-04-08 11:16:36 AM

RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??


The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.
 
2013-04-08 11:17:05 AM

Sid_6.7: I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with Islam. Overall, I think it's a really neat thing, but not for me. I do have a problem with anyone claiming I should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs. Or, rather, it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes steps to try and force me to follow their religious beliefs, then I have a problem.

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?

Please, explain, how liking the taste of an herb makes someone a douchebag? I could say the same about people classifying others based upon their enjoyment of a single plant.

/potheads, for example


I got Some awesome tomatoes that I started in ceramic pots with potting soil.  Kiss my ripe reds ones if you don't like it.  Even better, slice one up for a BLT with salt, pepper, and mayo.
 
2013-04-08 11:18:27 AM

NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


See, now this is some great stuff. What it lacks in believability it more than makes up for in sheer hilarity.

I give it 7/10.
 
2013-04-08 11:19:29 AM

s2s2s2: HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.

"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.


at least you had the decency to put the second christians in quotes and use a small c (i am assuming to indicate they are not really Christians).
 
2013-04-08 11:19:57 AM

Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.


Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.
 
2013-04-08 11:20:51 AM

ciberido: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.


So it's like church, but with none of the redemption or awesome food afterwards and all of the effort in getting somewhere when you just want to sleep.

I thought they were supposed to be smarter and more logic-driven than us, man. Reading that was like having a discussion with my Jewish girlfriend's dad about how he buys lottery tickets.
 
2013-04-08 11:21:08 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.


you DO know where you are, right? :P
 
2013-04-08 11:21:59 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: s2s2s2: HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.

"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.

at least you had the decency to put the second christians in quotes and use a small c (i am assuming to indicate they are not really Christians).


and she's bu-eeeeee-ying a stairway to heaven...
 
2013-04-08 11:22:16 AM

Rabbitgod: Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.

Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.


I didn't say religion alone could guide us. I'm just saying that this stuff that Harris and Dawkins push, where science is the preferable moral source, isn't exactly true. In fact, it's been the exact opposite in some profound incidents.
 
2013-04-08 11:22:35 AM

NostroZ: I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


This. I'm not sure I agree but the history of religion and religious thought and the evolution of the modern forms of the Abrahamic religions is incredibly interesting.

/and unarguably has been a tremendous force in shaping the modern world
 
2013-04-08 11:23:06 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper


"Feed my Frankenstein!"
 
2013-04-08 11:24:41 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses. Here's hoping.


nah... that's why the world is the way it is... with people stuck believing that their beliefs are the right ones.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:00 AM

The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?


Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:31 AM
There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

/I am not agnostic.
//I really am denying the existence of deities.
///I am a gnostic athiest by default as I am not theist for sure and I am not agnostic leaving only one option.
 
2013-04-08 11:25:33 AM

Sid_6.7: Doktor_Zhivago: If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .

I ignore people quite infrequently, usually it's only automatic if I notice they're making repeated, blatantly racists comments without any sense of irony. But he made my list quite some time ago.


Mmmmmmm..... Islam is not a race.
 
2013-04-08 11:26:28 AM

Biological Ali: s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.

Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?


Trololololololololo...
 
2013-04-08 11:26:32 AM

dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

/I am not agnostic.
//I really am denying the existence of deities.
///I am a gnostic athiest by default as I am not theist for sure and I am not agnostic leaving only one option.


That's a pretty big claim to make, man. It's cool, though.
 
2013-04-08 11:26:40 AM
Like a lot of atheists, I read a bunch of books about atheism and the shortcomings of religion

LOLWUT?
 
2013-04-08 11:26:45 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

If we all just ignore him he'll go away one day. . .


Moo Slim.  Whats your problem?  They make good cheese!
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-08 11:28:24 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.

Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)


Well then you obviously haven't spoken to them about what they believe. Some Unitarians believe in god, a lot are atheist, a lot more fall into the Spinoza's god territory.

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

Yes, but it is you who is claiming that all Unitarians believe in a god of some kind, and if you're going to talk about a group of people and what they believe in, then it is usually helpful to actually know something about what they believe in -cause then you'd know what you're talking about, and that's always a good thing.

More importantly...can you refute it?

Refute it?  well I can point to countless instances in history of stark-raving crazy ideologues with self-glorified crusades who felt that the most important thing to do was to attack the moderates within some ideological window in order to create a wedge with which to push their own group think onto the whole. Being more radical doesn't make you more right.
 
2013-04-08 11:28:53 AM

Lorelle: doglover: It's never the wrong thread.

They're the ones I don't like in the kitchens.

Also people who think a slice of tomato in a grilled cheese is a good idea. Seriously, who does that?

Gosh, that sounds good.

lumiere: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

That depends, do they only like cilantro, or is their love for cilantro amplified because of their deep hatred of parsley?

I like parsley, too. Horseradish is an abomination, though.


Wasabi me?  Same ol', wasabi you?
 
2013-04-08 11:29:01 AM

NostroZ: Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.


Are you telling me that my life doesn't have purpose?
 
2013-04-08 11:30:42 AM
Here to throw my hat in with the Atheists, but I've got nothing new and snarky to say that hasn't already been said.

I would be interested in a study of various religions though, to determine how to get them to stop having such a negative social impact.  Jews and Christians had a leadership that promoted horrific violence, for example, and now they're not as bad.  Scientology is pretty terrible, and I can accept that a minority - but significant and vocal extremist minority with the implicit approval of a significant subset of the moderates - of Muslims are also horrible.  There's dozens more examples.

Is it some sort of lifecyle-of-religion thing, where they go through phases and become less awful?  Even if the catholic church was deliberately hiding their many, many kiddy diddlers, it's at least a bit better than large-scale wars and inquisitions.   Do religions have to 'grow up' ?

Don't get me wrong, I still think their existence itself causes the retardation of the progress of humankind as a whole, but I think not enough effort has been spent on legitimately determining a solution to the problem.  Religion is too built in to humans to just go away because it doesn't make sense - we need to figure out how to properly neuter it while we're waiting for it to fade in importance.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:03 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people


I know!  Always pushing to have their organization's views codified into law thereby restricting the rights of others... What jerks!
 
2013-04-08 11:31:36 AM

dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.

 Your father did not have to prove to you that there is a God.

Your grandfather did not have to prove to you that there is a God.
Your great-great-great-grand-parents did not need to prove to you there is a God.

It's better to believe in a God and be wrong than to not believe and be damned!
This is Pascal's Argument:   Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:48 AM

Marine1: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?

It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.


That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.
 
2013-04-08 11:31:53 AM

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!

And prior to that there was the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Look man, religion exploded in Egypt around 4100 years ago and so did human civilization. Writing. Farming. Mathematics. Dentistry. Elaborate burial ritual, recreational games like bowling, hell BEER WAS INVENTED in Egypt around that time!

Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.


Look man, I'm telling you we are on the same page.   I just think we are at odds about our historical facts.

See, before the Code of Hummus, it was a brain eating, Atheist utopia.  Then, through the power of religion humans developed farming, a subsitute for brain protein.  Everything was fine until 4000 years later when Stalin came and reignited the flames of Atheism.  Brain eating was up 30%.  Fortunately , in the mid 80's, Rocky Balboa was challenged to a boxing fight with Stalin's prize fighter Ivan Drago to settle the matter.  Things looked bleak, but what is not widely known is that Rocky had a secret White House meeting with Ronald Reagen who gave Rocky the stratagy needed to win.  And peace was restored.
 
2013-04-08 11:33:25 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: Marine1: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?

It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.


I'm not saying the outcome is always desirable... but it does get people to do things. I mean, that's all you hear from anti-theists.
 
2013-04-08 11:35:39 AM

NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.


I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.
 
2013-04-08 11:35:50 AM

SpikeStrip: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I was referring to the atheists.
(cman's comment - then the thread got hijacked by the cilantro comments)

ffs it was a baseketball reference holy shiat some of you are sensitive


I love a good game of hoops with friends on a Saturday morning, but just because I use a body wash with Shea Butter and shaving cream with Menthol doesn't give you grounds to bust my chops over it, meanie!
 
2013-04-08 11:37:49 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.


Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.
 
2013-04-08 11:38:12 AM

quietwalker: I would be interested in a study of various religions though, to determine how to get them to stop having such a negative social impact. Jews and Christians had a leadership that promoted horrific violence, for example, and now they're not as bad. Scientology is pretty terrible, and I can accept that a minority - but significant and vocal extremist minority with the implicit approval of a significant subset of the moderates - of Muslims are also horrible. There's dozens more examples.


Well, when people say things like "Christianity today is better off than Islam", they're really only talking about Christianity in North America and Europe (and to some extent South America). Christianity in Africa (places like Uganda etc.) is pretty much on par with any stereotypically bad picture of Islam in the Middle East.
 
2013-04-08 11:39:15 AM

staplermofo: For the love of the absence of a higher power, would you farkmothers trim your farkingmother quotes down?


Hell, or possibly Heck, no.  I got a rapier in each hand am set to verbally swashbuckle sht shiznit out of this thread.  Game on Zorro.

/Your move.
 
2013-04-08 11:39:15 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.



You're starting from a faulty premise, and everything that is developed from that premise is likewise faulty.
 
2013-04-08 11:39:17 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


The societies that contributed to those things were pretty damned religious. Furthermore, after the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Church more or less kept the Classical knowledge alive during the Dark Ages.
 
2013-04-08 11:42:39 AM

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.

Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.


Really?  You haven't heard about the Inquisition?
 
2013-04-08 11:48:07 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

So you know what farking thread you are posting in?  (hint:  check the top, look at the writing in green)
(extra hint:  It is a thread about atheists being Islamaphobe hate mongers.)

I was agreeing that they are intolerant.


Ho ho, ha, ha, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust! *phdoing!*  (WTF went wrong?)
 
2013-04-08 11:50:00 AM

IlGreven: jso2897: IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.

I didn't mean atheists, I meant atheism.  The biggest target for atheism should be people who would become atheists "but for" something that atheists do that offends them (and like it or not, fence-sitters in religion see atheists as a group, not as individuals).  I think the crap spouted by Atheism+ does more to drive potential "converts" away from doing so than anything Sam Harris does.

...and now that I think about it, A+ has, in fact, been big on "locking out" those atheists who don't agree ...


It's not a friggin' club I belong to, and I'm not interested in expanding the "membership". There is no actual "thing" called "atheism", in my world. It's just my personal worldview- nothing more, nothing less.
I didn't "decide" to "become" and atheist, any more than I "decided" to become heterosexual.
The whole concept (of someone "becoming" an atheist) is alien to me.
 
2013-04-08 11:50:26 AM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,

How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

[i560.photobucket.com image 512x668]


Why do you think they called it the "Dark Ages". 50 million were killed by Jesus lovers.
 
2013-04-08 11:52:33 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


My friend.  People in power do not like ANYONE undermining their authority.  This has nothing to do with religion.  It's human greed.

Religion allowed for a hierarchical society that is necessary to achieve great things (like the Pyramids) and farming.  With the Pharaoh being a representative for God, a whole social construct that we use today in business developed.  With farming mathematics was needed to divide the fields following the Nile's annual flooding.  With advanced mathematics the Pharaoh's court was able to predict eclipses and other astral anomalies. With more leisure time as a result of specialization and farming, the Egyptians developed games, like bowling (really, look it up).

The same arc of development can be seen for the Greeks after the develop their mythology.

There will always be bad apples, in religion or not.  But to ascribe all evil to religion ignores the extraordinary good that it does for civilization.
 
2013-04-08 11:55:06 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


You're being trolled. Hard.
 
2013-04-08 11:57:14 AM

miss diminutive: staplermofo: I love hatred threads.  If there was a clothing line by that name I would wear only their stuff.

Isn't their clothing line a sheet with two holes cut in it?


It could also be all black from head to toe.  A black beret and some aesthetically or ironically placed bling.  Or a pair of rubber boots, bib  overalls held up by one strap, a mossy oak hat, and a sprig of wheat clenched between their teeth.
 
2013-04-08 11:59:58 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Really? You haven't heard about the Inquisition?


That was against the Jews and Muslims... nothing to see here.

Business as usual in Europe... move along citizen.

/In Capitalism this phenomenon was called McCarthyism... a witch-hunt by the fanatical against their perceived moral enemies.
//Lets not pretend that religion has anything to do with people in power oppressing a minority group they deem dangerous.
///Look up Eugene V. Debs and that he was sentenced to prison for saying that he supported the anti-war movement in WW2.
 
2013-04-08 12:02:00 PM

Marine1: ciberido: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.

So it's like church, but with none of the redemption or awesome food afterwards and all of the effort in getting somewhere when you just want to sleep.

I thought they were supposed to be smarter and more logic-driven than us, man. Reading that was like having a discussion with my Jewish girlfriend's dad about how he buys lottery tickets.


I think you'll find that a very, very tiny minority of all atheists attend these conventions... I've never even heard of them before now, and I've been an atheist all my life (going on 42 years now)! And, now having heard of them, I certainly have no desire at all to ever attend one... To me it would be like attending a convention of other people who also don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot or Santa Claus... Great and all, but that's not really enough of a defining characteristic to justify getting together and socializing, in my book... For all I know, they may all be assholes who like stuff I hate and vice versa; shared lack of belief in a deity says nothing else about their personalities really... At least with something like a Star Trek convention, you know you have a shared love of sci-fi in common, and something to at least talk about... But, how do you talk about a lack of belief in a deity? "So, I hear you don't believe in gods either? Cool!" Not a very long conversation, really...
 
2013-04-08 12:09:22 PM
So what!?!?

It's well placed and thoroughly deserved. They're culturally bankrupt. As are all the Abrahamic religions.

Let them all rot.
 
2013-04-08 12:09:36 PM

Marine1: Rabbitgod: Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.

Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.

I didn't say religion alone could guide us. I'm just saying that this stuff that Harris and Dawkins push, where science is the preferable moral source, isn't exactly true. In fact, it's been the exact opposite in some profound incidents.


And your earlier example of forced human experimentation by the Nazi's is proof of this? Hardly, the Nazi hate of Jews and other Non-Christian, or unpopular Christian denominations, such a Jehova Witnesses, was fueled by old Lutheran and Catholic hate of those groups. It was that bigotry that lead to the view of certain groups as subhuman. People that claim to be scientist, but inject their hate, bigotry, or own self interests into the scientific process in order to justify their beliefs are not scientist, they are people in search of an excuse for their actions.
 
2013-04-08 12:11:32 PM

NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.


Before you claim any of these (many of which predate Egypt and Greece) for the Theists, you are going to have to provide clear and convicing evidence that the one reason any of these things were 'invented" was religion.

p.s. The earliest scientifically confirmed barley beer production was in Iran about 5,500 years ago. The Chinese were producing  alcoholic beverages on a small scale as far back as 9,000 years ago.
 
2013-04-08 12:13:26 PM

NostroZ: dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.
 Your father did not have to prove to you that there is a God.

Your grandfather did not have to prove to you that there is a God.
Your great-great-great-grand-parents did not need to prove to you there is a God.

It's better to believe in a God and be wrong than to not believe and be damned!
This is Pascal's Argument:   Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.


And here we have the crux of his argument: He's afraid.
 
2013-04-08 12:17:32 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: IlGreven: bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.

Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!

/See, I can make excuses for "perceived" horrible behavior, too!
//Lower percentage of atheists in prison than in the free population.
///Higher percentage of Christians in prison than in the free population.


nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God

Some denominations also believe that you must also be baptized which is why I did not include it in the primary list as all denominations must agree on those 4 if they are Christian.


So you try to refute the statement by saying "nope" and then by listing the steps in conversion? Were you perhaps unaware of the meaning of the word conversion as it was used in his statement?

Besides which, your steps do nothing to refute the point of his statement. A serial rapist murderer could follow your steps (earnestly, "with all his heart", since that seems to be some important measurement) and still be forgiven of all his crimes (or sins as some call them) and earn an eternal paradise. While his victim, who for the sake of argument never accepted Jesus (or followed any of your steps), burns in eternal agony for unbelief.

So the murder-rapist not only ultimately gets away with his crimes, but is actively forgiven for all of them and rewarded with eternal bliss, while his victim (whose last moments were of violation, humiliation, pain, and terror) remains unforgiven, and dies only to be punished with eternal violation, humiliation, pain, and terror.

How very just and fair of your god.

But you might argue, "They had a chance for the same forgiveness!" Sure. Sure they did. Right up until they were raped and murdered by your happy new cherub.

Also, as an aside, so who's correct? The denominations that think water baptism is necessary or the ones who don't? What about the multitudes of other denominations that think steps are added or removed from your list? Are they right? What about other religions, are they right?
 
2013-04-08 12:19:33 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: It's irrelevant, actually.


And yet this huge "yuh huh" "nuh uh" dichotomy of either or is the new black.   :  )  Nobody can wax profound better than [nominal group A] and [nominal group A is full of sh*t].  The either or isn't at all irrelevant.  What's irrelevant, apparently, is what we do or do not do about the truth if we do find out without a doubt.  Either way, something within our makeup makes us participants in something  we feel but don't quite understand and we know it's amazingly important.
 
2013-04-08 12:20:43 PM

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.

My friend.  People in power do not like ANYONE undermining their authority.  This has nothing to do with religion.  It's human greed.

Religion allowed for a hierarchical society that is necessary to achieve great things (like the Pyramids) and farming.  With the Pharaoh being a representative for God, a whole social construct that we use today in business developed.  With farming mathematics was needed to divide the fields following the Nile's annual flooding.  With advanced mathematics the Pharaoh's court was able to predict eclipses and other astral anomalies. With more leisure time as a result of specialization and farming, the Egyptians developed games, like bowling (really, look it up).

The same arc of development can be seen for the Greeks after the develop their mythology.

There will always be bad apples, in religion or not.  But to ascribe all evil to religion ignores the extraordinary good that it does for civilization.


I don't recall saying anything good about people in power.  I will add that religion allows religious people in power to behave in a similar manner, and that they have.

I didn't ascribe all evil to religion, just some of it.

I don't agree that religion is/was necessary for anything that mankind has done.  Religion is, and always has been, a hindrance.
 
2013-04-08 12:21:48 PM

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.

Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.


Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?
 
2013-04-08 12:21:58 PM

miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


twimg0-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-04-08 12:22:02 PM

xria: rikkards: Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.

The proper answer would be "personal responsibility to society norms".

Also it is hard to see how anyone with a belief in an eternally happy afterlife for good people, and hell for bad people is really "moral" - they are just being selfish on a longer time frame.



I agree with you to a degree, at least.  Anyone who believes that there is a "good" afterlife and a "bad" afterlife ought to feel some kind of concern or distress or pity at the thought that millions or billions of people are doomed to the bad one.  Ideally, this should compel a believer to do everything in their power to help non-believers "understand" the need to convert so they can get the "good" afterlife.

(Let me just use "heaven" as a generic term for any desirable afterlife and "hell" as a generic term for any undesirable afterlife, to save electrons.)

Unfortunately, there are (at least) two problems with how this plays out historically (and today).

First, once you totally buy into the ideas that (A) an hour in hell is infinitely worse than an hour of the worse torture any human can inflict, and (B) it is possible, however unlikely, that you can FORCE a given person into "becoming saved," then the most brutal torture and murder can be justified in terms of "saving someone's soul" (i.e., ensuring that they will go to heaven when they die).  All of the worst atrocities done in the name of Christianity (the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem witch trials, etc) all of it can be justified given those two assumptions as absolutes.  And such atrocities could happen again in any society that accepts such premises as unquestionably true.

Second, if you believe that the "divine judge" (God, or whoever or whatever determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell when they die) is infallible, you start to believe that some people DESERVE heaven and others DESERVE hell.  From there, you start to think that the "unsaved" people not only deserve to go to hell when they die, but they don't really deserve all that much respect here on Earth, either.

It's funny how often this happens with Christians, especially how many different passages in the Bible specifically admonish Christians NOT to do that.  ("Judge not, lest ye be judged," "Before you pluck the splinter from your brother's eye," "For all have sinned," etc.)

You call it being "selfish."  I call it "human nature."
 
2013-04-08 12:23:32 PM

miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


Tricorn.
 
2013-04-08 12:24:17 PM

Biological Ali: Well, when people say things like "Christianity today is better off than Islam", they're really only talking about Christianity in North America and Europe (and to some extent South America). Christianity in Africa (places like Uganda etc.) is pretty much on par with any stereotypically bad picture of Islam in the Middle East.


So there is death penalty for apostacy in Uganda?

Or do you mean they are "on par" on the issue of gays, even though the law that included death penalty was never passed, yet is the law in many muslim coutnries?
 
2013-04-08 12:24:20 PM

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Really? You haven't heard about the Inquisition?

That was against the Jews and Muslims... nothing to see here.

Business as usual in Europe... move along citizen.

/In Capitalism this phenomenon was called McCarthyism... a witch-hunt by the fanatical against their perceived moral enemies.
//Lets not pretend that religion has anything to do with people in power oppressing a minority group they deem dangerous.
///Look up Eugene V. Debs and that he was sentenced to prison for saying that he supported the anti-war movement in WW2.


And?  We can have evil people and events with or without a religious base.
 
2013-04-08 12:29:19 PM

dfxdeimos: When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for adultery should be stoning - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for theft or robbery should involve whippings or cutting off the hands of the accused - that is a problem.

And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

But I am sure that you would find a similar number of Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus that would say the same thing, right? Get farking real.



Read Leviticus sometime.   The Christian Bible also mandates that homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned to death, and any women who isn't a vigrin on her wedding night, and a long list of other criminals..  I'm not sure why you think Islam is necessarily worse than any other Abrahamic religion.
 
2013-04-08 12:30:40 PM

liam76: So there is death penalty for apostacy in Uganda?

Or do you mean they are "on par" on the issue of gays, even though the law that included death penalty was never passed, yet is the law in many muslim coutnries?


Would you say that a lynching is about on par with an execution?
 
2013-04-08 12:33:01 PM

The Snow Dog: If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.


Atheist babies?
 
2013-04-08 12:34:09 PM

give me doughnuts: This is Pascal's Argument: Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.

And here we have the crux of his argument: He's afraid.


All creatures are afraid of death, this is a basic survival instinct.  Are you telling me you are not?

Are you also telling me you know for certain what will happen when you die?

Therefore, as Pascal's Argument goes, you are asking for me to NOT believe in something that has a much greater loss in not believing.  Versus following the tradition of my grand-parents and passing down a rich culture.  A belief in something greater than oneself.

/Not that it matters... but I do not believe in a hell as you might know it.
//My religion's hell is to be so far separated from God that you are in a void, yet there is still hope of redemption.
 
2013-04-08 12:34:18 PM

liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.



So .... that's like the atheist version of "Love the sinner, hate the sin"?

And when right-wing Christians say they condemn homosexuality but don't hate gay people, you're fine with that?
 
2013-04-08 12:37:39 PM

Biological Ali: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.

You're being trolled. Hard.


I just got an email from the AFA, says the FCC is dropping the ban on "the f-word" and nudity in broadcast radio and TV.  About time.
 
2013-04-08 12:38:12 PM

lenfromak: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

No, that would mean having an irrational fear of religion, or an irrational fear of islam. As an atheist, I simply think islam is as make-believe as all the others.


You might not be aware of this, but the "-phobe" suffix can mean "person who hates X" as well as "person who is afraid of X."  When you call someone a homophobe, for example, you're saying that they hate homosexuality, not that they're necessarily afraid of it.  Though it's certainly possible a given homophobe could be either.
 
2013-04-08 12:39:46 PM

Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?


Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.
 
2013-04-08 12:41:50 PM
This argument is stupid. The world is split into theists and atheists. Theists are made up of all the different distinct religions and all of their denominations. Atheists are also made up of many different groups and lifestyles... and you can't broad brush them as hate mongers any more than you can do that with all theists.

However, you can distinguish at least 2 groups of atheists easily: the benign atheists and the anti-theists. The hateful ones are the equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church, and they do not represent all atheists, they are just the noisy ones who need attention like the Christian hate mongers in the news every day. Even taking the different levels of anti-theism within the Atheist community, I don't believe that any atheist really hates Islam more than any other religion.
 
2013-04-08 12:43:10 PM

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.


Yea, MAN has created terrible diseases, such as malaria, polio, the plague, ebola, diphtheria, etc, etc.  A MERCIFUL GOD would never do that.  Right?
 
2013-04-08 12:45:41 PM

Surool: However, you can distinguish at least 2 groups of atheists easily: the benign atheists and the anti-theists. The hateful ones are the equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church, and they do not represent all atheists, they are just the noisy ones who need attention like the Christian hate mongers in the news every day.


The only way you could make a comment like that with a straight face is if you didn't actually know very much about the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
2013-04-08 12:47:55 PM

NostroZ: All creatures are afraid of death, this is a basic survival instinct. Are you telling me you are not?

Are you also telling me you know for certain what will happen when you die?



Of course I am. All creatures complex enough to know fear, fear death.

As for what happens after death, I don't have a clue. No one does. But what I do know is that nothing I do in life will have any effect on whether or not there is any "afterlife", or what form it will take.

As for the rest of your post, and pretty much everything you have posted in this thred, let me quote the eminent philosopher Mr. T: That's just a bunch of jibber-jabber.
 
2013-04-08 12:49:58 PM

Inflatable Rhetoric: Yea, MAN has created terrible diseases, such as malaria, polio, the plague, ebola, diphtheria, etc, etc. A MERCIFUL GOD would never do that. Right?


I fear that stylistic rhetoric has obfuscated this discussion.

When I said history has shown us that MAN is less MERCIFUL than GOD, I meant the rule of men without religion versus rule with religion.  As with the case of atheist governments as was the case with USSR and China.  To some degree, the Mongols did not have a religion either, they were tolerant of their conquered people's religion... yet, what do you know about the Mongols... Ghangis Khan, a leader who's policy of conquest was complete and utter destruction.

My point is that religion tempers the human heart and keeps it from doing greater evil.
 
2013-04-08 12:50:04 PM

Sid_6.7: I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with Islam. Overall, I think it's a really neat thing, but not for me. I do have a problem with anyone claiming I should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs. Or, rather, it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes steps to try and force me to follow their religious beliefs, then I have a problem.

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?

Please, explain, how liking the taste of an herb makes someone a douchebag? I could say the same about people classifying others based upon their enjoyment of a single plant.

/potheads, for example


Geez dude! are you off your meds? Do you even see the GIANT irony in your post? You have no problem with Islam but you do have a problem with people that says  you should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs?

WTF do you think Islam is?

...... and yes I was thinking religious people were a confuse bunch.. LOL
 
2013-04-08 12:51:31 PM

vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.



I have several family members who are Protestant.   Some might even be called fundamentalist.  It's interesting when they talk about Islam because my internal voice, the one that would get me in trouble if I allowed it access to my mouth, keeps noting how similar their arguments against Islam are to the arguments my atheist friends make against Christianity.

You could pretty much just swap "Jesus" for "Mohammad," "Christianity" for "Islam," et cetera, and they'd be almost identical, word-for-word.

I was reminded of something I read in one of the New Atheist books (can't recall who it was, maybe Dawkins, maybe Hitchens): "The crucial difference between Christians and atheists is that Christians disbelieve N-1 religions, while atheists disbelieve N religions."  I'm probably mangling the quote, but it went something like that.
 
2013-04-08 12:51:48 PM

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.


Watching to see how he get's to double-talk himself out of this one.

The foot must be delicious.
 
2013-04-08 12:52:41 PM

vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"


That claim has been made many times in Fark threads.  I'm not sure how true it is outside of Fark, though.
 
2013-04-08 12:53:11 PM
NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker unneeded drain on the human condition. 
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Humanity, and the species finally starts getting its collective shiat together.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.
  More jibber-jabber
 
2013-04-08 12:56:02 PM

give me doughnuts: what I do know is that nothing I do in life will have any effect on whether or not there is any "afterlife", or what form it will take.


I am envious of your certainty.

I have a hard time believing that billions of people on this planet are wrong and I am right.  Since every religion is based on a soul that is affected by this life's events, you are in a VERY minority view.  But I respect your life's choice and hopefully when the day comes to both of us, then we will know who is RIGHT for sure.

I'd rather hedge my bets and be a good person, as proscribed by all the faiths of the world.

If I may ask a hypothetical questions then...
You come upon a burning building and there is a young girl trapped inside.  You are the only one around who can help.  Do you help the girl inside and why?
 
2013-04-08 12:57:22 PM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,

How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

[i560.photobucket.com image 512x668]



Are you saying that because you think some Farkers are stupid enough to believe the Jesus is actually advocating burning people in that passage, or because you're stupid enough to believe that?
 
2013-04-08 12:58:26 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.


So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."
 
2013-04-08 12:58:43 PM

IlGreven: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

It usually goes like this:

Atheist says something critical against Christianity.
Christians say "Well, you don't have the guts to say those things against the ebil Muslims."
Atheist then says something critical against Islam.
Christians say "ZOMG ISLAMOPHOBE!"


It mostly goes that way when you stop taking your meds.
 
2013-04-08 01:00:44 PM

IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.



Yes, indeed, the biggest problem with atheism is that it's TOO feminist.

You really ARE off your meds.
 
2013-04-08 01:00:50 PM

Lorelle: doglover: So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.

For once, I'm NOT trolling. Really, I swear. Horseradish sucks.

/needs to buy some more cilantro
//has cravings for cilantro-lime rice


Cilantro-lime rice sounds like the best rice ever.
 
2013-04-08 01:01:20 PM

Scythed: Atheism isillegal in most of the Muslim world. Apostasy is punishable by imprisonment or death. The Quran and Hadith support this.

Asking why Atheists are Islamophobic is like asking why Jews are Naziphobic.


and yet here we are 500 + post later arguing why a certain author is a douche for clinging to true atheistic beliefs.. apparently even atheists are willing to forgo their most fundamental 'beliefs' for the sake of political correctness these daysl.

Why would YOU want to be tolerant of a group of folks whose core beliefs are that you and your like minded folks are subhuman and should be put to death in the most horrific of ways?
 
2013-04-08 01:04:30 PM
To chime in...

I don't give two farks what they want to believe, although in the end I think it'll come down to their values vs. western values, and personally, I subscribe to western values.

So if it came down to it, fark them
 
2013-04-08 01:05:55 PM

PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...


The Dalai Lama agrees with you.
 
2013-04-08 01:06:47 PM

jigger: HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.

So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."


I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't post that. Others in the thread might not be as generous, though.
 
2013-04-08 01:08:46 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.

[www.fakesteve.net image 640x470]



www.movievillains.com

Because it's DULL, you twit!  It'll hurt more!
 
2013-04-08 01:09:26 PM

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.


You sure about that?

You are more moral than god(s).

http://youtu.be/nxf7E_gpea4

http://youtu.be/gIx50jf4jpg
 
2013-04-08 01:10:08 PM

give me doughnuts: these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Humanity, and the species finally starts getting its collective shiat together.


My dear Farker, I do not feel we are having a discussion anymore and I am done posting on this topic.

You are demanding that humans no longer believe in a God, even though it is in our nature to believe.  Furthermore, when I have brought up examples of governments that have purposefully eradicated religion only to have greater immorality follow, you have ignored the topic multiple times.

Now you are once again planting your feet high upon your soap-box to shout down religion/God, ignoring the millions of people killed under than same slogan.  I do not wish to be spoken at by you sir.

It has become clear that we are not having a conversation any longer, but you continue to repeat the dogma of "God=bad" despite the numerous examples of Man=Bad, God=Tempering force.

I will leave you to your dogmatic belief Mr.Doughnuts so that you may repeat your articles of faith without anyone telling you otherwise (with examples of USSR, China, Mongol, etc.)
 
2013-04-08 01:10:16 PM

Biological Ali: Surool: However, you can distinguish at least 2 groups of atheists easily: the benign atheists and the anti-theists. The hateful ones are the equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church, and they do not represent all atheists, they are just the noisy ones who need attention like the Christian hate mongers in the news every day.

The only way you could make a comment like that with a straight face is if you didn't actually know very much about the Westboro Baptist Church.


The only way you could make a comment like that with a straight face is if you didn't actually know very much about how the Westboro Baptist Church is viewed by most people.
 
2013-04-08 01:11:12 PM

NostroZ: You come upon a burning building and there is a young girl trapped inside.  You are the only one around who can help.  Do you help the girl inside and why?


Yum. Young, female oven roasted brains!  I'd leave her.

Wait!  You didn't specify how dangerous it was.  I'd go with a %65 chance of survival.  After that, she's on her own.
 
2013-04-08 01:11:50 PM

Biological Ali: jigger: HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.

So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."

I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't post that. Others in the thread might not be as generous, though.


So, no rebuttal then?

What's your position? Science is passive and descriptive or active and prescriptive?
 
2013-04-08 01:14:26 PM

Biological Ali: s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.

Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?


bigotry |ˈbigətrē|
noun
bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself:
 
2013-04-08 01:15:15 PM

jigger: Biological Ali: jigger: HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.

So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."

I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't post that. Others in the thread might not be as generous, though.

So, no rebuttal then?

What's your position? Science is passive and descriptive or active and prescriptive?


I'm doing you a pretty big favour here. Don't push your luck.
 
2013-04-08 01:16:55 PM

Biological Ali: jigger: Biological Ali: jigger: HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.

So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."

I'm going to do you a favour and pretend you didn't post that. Others in the thread might not be as generous, though.

So, no rebuttal then?

What's your position? Science is passive and descriptive or active and prescriptive?

I'm doing you a pretty big favour here. Don't push your luck.


So you've got nothing?
 
2013-04-08 01:17:27 PM

Surool: The only way you could make a comment like that with a straight face is if you didn't actually know very much about how the Westboro Baptist Church is viewed by most people.


I see. And how, pray tell, is the Westboro Baptist Church viewed by most people?
 
2013-04-08 01:18:53 PM

NostroZ: give me doughnuts: what I do know is that nothing I do in life will have any effect on whether or not there is any "afterlife", or what form it will take.

I am envious of your certainty.

I have a hard time believing that billions of people on this planet are wrong and I am right. (

argumentum ad populum) Since every religion is based on a soul that is affected by this life's events, you are in a VERY minority view.  But I respect your life's choice and hopefully when the day comes to both of us, then we will know who is RIGHT for sure.

I'd rather hedge my bets and be a good person, as proscribed by all the faiths of the world.
(Pascals Wager)

You've succumbed to some common pitfalls there. Look those terms up and learn why they are flawed arguments.

If I may ask a hypothetical questions then...
You come upon a burning building and there is a young girl trapped inside.  You are the only one around who can help.  Do you help the girl inside and why?


I risk my life to save the girl as I consider that the moral course of action. Were there professionals around to do the job, I'd let them as their chances of success would likely be far greater than mine.

Morality being demonstrably subjective, and not demonstrably objective.
 
2013-04-08 01:19:42 PM

Voiceofreason01: so religion is any group or organization or person or ideology that you disagree with or don't like?


No. Religion is similar to fanaticism. A football tough, willing to mercilessly beat someone for the jersey they wear, is a religious fanatic, by definition.

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods: ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• a particular system of faith and worship: the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance: consumerism is the new religion.

Most religious people aren't really all that interested in a relationship with god(the divine, spirituality, et al). I don't see faith in god as a requirement for morality, nor for religious bent.
 
2013-04-08 01:21:15 PM

Biological Ali: Well, when people say things like "Christianity today is better off than Islam", they're really only talking about Christianity in North America and Europe (and to some extent South America). Christianity in Africa (places like Uganda etc.) is pretty much on par with any stereotypically bad picture of Islam in the Middle East.


Are you saying that when the secular authority is sovereign over religious authority, then religion becomes nice?

Behold, my hero...

upload.wikimedia.org

Will no one rid us of these pedophile priests...
 
2013-04-08 01:23:56 PM

Marine1: ciberido: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.

So it's like church, but with none of the redemption or awesome food afterwards and all of the effort in getting somewhere when you just want to sleep.



There's nothing particularly sinister or dumb about it.  It's human nature to want to associate with people with whom you have something in common, be it politics, or a hobby, or a religious belief, or a lack of a religious belief.

The difference between "movement atheism" and just plain ol' atheism is that "movement atheists" have a sociopolitical agenda: to make the world more friendly to atheists (basically freedom of religion type stuff) and to persuade non-atheists that they should give atheism a try.  Both of these are pretty logical goals to espouse once you accept the idea that atheism is at least as good as religion, if not better.  And once you have enough people with a common agenda, then you need organizations, websites, conventions, books, blogs, etc.

And, of course, you can expect a lot of the time and energy to be spent debating what exactly the common agenda actually is.

In this regard, one could posit that movement atheism is much like any other life stance.
 
2013-04-08 01:25:43 PM

PunGent: Lizardking: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

I dont love Islam. I dont hate it either. Its just another religion to me, I respect the people who practice it and dont try to tell them they are wrong.

If you hate or fear anyone because of a religion, youre a farking idiot. Your religion and the ignorance it caused in you is the problem, not the other persons religion.

If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...


Youre either a troll or exhibit A for my case that religion makes people stupid. I just woke up and cant really tell yet
 
2013-04-08 01:26:25 PM

s2s2s2: No. Religion is


Oh. You're doing that thing where you take a terms with specific, commonly-understood meanings and substitute them with meanings that are so broad as to be meaningless in order to defend some silly equivocation.
 
2013-04-08 01:27:33 PM
Phobias are irrational, unlike being afraid of dangerourous animals.
 
2013-04-08 01:29:17 PM
Original idea: "To reduce conflict, we'll just accept everyone!" This idea, called pluralism or tolerance, became very popular in the 1960s.

Result of idea: "Now, everyone hates each other!" As we've accepted more belief systems, we've learned that they're incompatible with one another and in fact, often hate each other.

Hence we have more conflict, not less.

!!! Good thinking !!!
 
2013-04-08 01:29:46 PM
Sam responded to a lot of this hogwash on his site.   Give it a read if you want to cut through the he-said-she-said and really see how disingenuous some of these reporters are.
 
2013-04-08 01:30:11 PM

imfallen_angel: HindiDiscoMonster: Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses. Here's hoping.

nah... that's why the world is the way it is... with people stuck believing that their beliefs are the right ones.


Personally, as a secularist, I would love to see moderates of all religious persuasions join forces with "moderate" atheists (whatever the hell "moderate atheist" really means) to promote, well, secularism.  Something like an interfaith dialogue, but including agnostics and atheists.

I guess by "moderate atheist" I mean something like people who want freedom of religion so they don't get hassled for being atheist, in a secular society, but who aren't of the "all religion is evil and must be stomped out" hardcore variety.  I'm sure we could have a nice long Fark thread just on the question of what exactly "moderate" atheism is and who is a "moderate" versus a "hardcore" or "extremist" atheist.  I bet we could get 500 posts just arguing about what terms to use.
 
2013-04-08 01:31:15 PM
Anybody ever notice how long these threads are?
 
2013-04-08 01:31:22 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: If I may ask a hypothetical questions then...
You come upon a burning building and there is a young girl trapped inside. You are the only one around who can help. Do you help the girl inside and why?

I risk my life to save the girl as I consider that the moral course of action. Were there professionals around to do the job, I'd let them as their chances of success would likely be far greater than mine.

Morality being demonstrably subjective, and not demonstrably objective.


Why would you risk your own life to save another if there is no effect upon your soul?  If you have no soul...
If this life is ALL you have, why would you risk it for something that has no tangible reward?
Religion is a huge tempering force for the EGO.

You might run into a burning building, possibly maiming yourself for life to save a girl... and I admire that.
Yet, I would argue that such a SELFLESS action is much less likely to be done by someone who believes that there is no good/bad impact upon him to let the girl burn to death... since there IS the chance of getting hurt without much reward.

/In regards to Pascal's Wager - I referenced that earlier in this thread... I am well aware of it and find it to be VERY convincing.
//I also am not so full of myself and heavy in EGO to argue that an intangible spiritual concept like GOD follows basic logical rules such as 'appeal to the masses' as you put it in Latin "argumentum ad populum"
///Belief does not follow logic, as it cannot be proven true or false... hence the word BELIEF.
 
2013-04-08 01:35:39 PM

bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.


Why is it that some religious folk are so sure that without the fear of eternal damnation they would instantly embark on a killrape spree the likes of which have never been imagined?

Speak for yourself there, hoss.
 
2013-04-08 01:38:18 PM

GnomePaladin: Why is it that some religious folk are so sure that without the fear of eternal damnation they would instantly embark on a killrape spree the likes of which have never been imagined?


I think it has to do with astoundingly overwrought hyperbole and exaggeration.
 
2013-04-08 01:39:50 PM

NostroZ: /In regards to Pascal's Wager - I referenced that earlier in this thread... I am well aware of it and find it to be VERY convincing.


Just FYI: almost nobody actually makes the Pascal's Wager argument unironically these days. Unless you're doing one of those "How silly can I make my trolling and still be taken seriously" things, you're better off going with a different piece of theistic illogic - one that has a more time-tested appeal, like perhaps the "The universe is too finely tuned to have come about by chance" argument.
 
2013-04-08 01:43:11 PM

Rabbitgod: NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.

Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?


The atheists are just redefining and spinning to avoid being held responsible for anything bad, while trying to claim credit for anything good... same as any other religion, really.

/the Nazis were the first to codify the doublethink two-step
//"Your conspiracy theories are disproven, Jew haters." "No, we're anti-semites, we are opposed to all semitic people for sound scientific reasons."
///"Your pseudo-science is debunked, anti-semites." "No, we're not anti-semites, we hate only the Jews for their religious fanaticism and their conspiracies to destroy us."
 
2013-04-08 01:46:17 PM

ciberido: imfallen_angel: HindiDiscoMonster: Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses. Here's hoping.

nah... that's why the world is the way it is... with people stuck believing that their beliefs are the right ones.

Personally, as a secularist, I would love to see moderates of all religious persuasions join forces with "moderate" atheists (whatever the hell "moderate atheist" really means) to promote, well, secularism.  Something like an interfaith dialogue, but including agnostics and atheists.

I guess by "moderate atheist" I mean something like people who want freedom of religion so they don't get hassled for being atheist, in a secular society, but who aren't of the "all religion is evil and must be stomped out" hardcore variety.  I'm sure we could have a nice long Fark thread just on the question of what exactly "moderate" atheism is and who is a "moderate" versus a "hardcore" or "extremist" atheist.  I bet we could get 500 posts just arguing about what terms to use.


As in starting another one?... :-p

The number of threads that whine and rant on and on about defining everything and anything has already been done to death, to be honest.

What is comes down to is that if someone else has another point of view about something's definition, they WILL go on and on and on to convince the other to see things their way and accept their point of view on the definition of the word, topic, idea, etc.

Sounds familiar?

All I can say that most of these threads degenerate fairly in the same way, which is ironic, as they follow the exact same problem as the "real world" issues when it comes to religion, politics, sports, colour of dress, etc.:

"ego"

Which is what I consider the biggest flaw in humanity, and responsible for just about all wars and conflicts throughout history.
 
2013-04-08 01:46:48 PM

NostroZ: You might run into a burning building, possibly maiming yourself for life to save a girl... and I admire that.


Hold on there buddy.  You never mentioned the possibility of being maimed.  What would be the odds on maiming?  Furthermore, how could you be maimed and save her at the same time?  I suppose if you had to jump with her out of multi-story building, but you never specified it was a multi-story building.  Which floor was she on by the way?  Did I put on hairspray that day?  What kind of shoes was I wearing?  Office shoes, or sandals?

I beggining to think you haven't thought this through.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:30 PM

adamatari: I think the atheists saying Islam stands out as particularly bad have never read the old testament (go check out the Brick Testament, particularly Judges, anc come back to me), or never read history (nasty wars like the Thirty Years' War, no Muslims involved). Nor do they seem to know the facts on the ground as to who is  really commited to cultural genocide and assimillation of non-believers. There are WAY more Christian and Mormon missionaries than Islamic ones.


I have read the old testament, and it's every bit as barbaric as the Koran.

The difference is that Christians and Jews no longer stone people.
 
2013-04-08 01:50:03 PM

Biological Ali: NostroZ: /In regards to Pascal's Wager - I referenced that earlier in this thread... I am well aware of it and find it to be VERY convincing.

Just FYI: almost nobody actually makes the Pascal's Wager argument unironically these days. Unless you're doing one of those "How silly can I make my trolling and still be taken seriously" things, you're better off going with a different piece of theistic illogic - one that has a more time-tested appeal, like perhaps the "The universe is too finely tuned to have come about by chance" argument.


Wikipedia quote:
Voltaire (another prominent French writer of the Enlightenment) a generation after Pascal, rejected the notion that the wager was 'proof of God' as "indecent and childish", adding, "the interest I have to believe a thing is no proof that such a thing exists." Pascal, however, did not advance the wager as a proof, but rather as a necessary pragmatic decision, that is 'impossible to avoid'. He argued that abstaining is not an option, and 'reason is incapable of divining the truth'; thus, a decision of whether or not to believe must be made by 'considering the consequences of each possibility'.

I'm not being ironic... but in truth, I see that believing is a better bet than not.
It is a bet that my ancestors made on faith and I'd rather not be the smartass who after 4000 years says I know better.
To believe in something versus nothing adds morality and direction to my current life, as well as the peace-of mind with hedging my bets for a possible afterlife.  That to me is much more comforting than arguing something that cannot be proven true/false.
 
2013-04-08 02:02:42 PM

NostroZ: as well as the peace-of mind with hedging my bets for a possible afterlife


On the off chance that you're being serious, this part isn't even mathematically sound (which, in addition to the absurd suggestion that people can just decide to believe something, is why Pascal's Wager today is seen more a joke than a respectable argument).

For instance, if you've gone with the wrong deity, the real one might send you to hell for picking the wrong side, whereas if you didn't believe in any god at all you might have been spared. It's also possible that the real god is a trickster who would send everyone who believes in him to hell, and only spare those who don't believe in him.

If you account for all possibilities, it's clear that you're not actually improving your odds by randomly picking a deity and believing in him (assuming you can even do that to begin with - most people, barring some sort of mental illness, can't actually just start believing in things like that).
 
2013-04-08 02:07:35 PM

NostroZ: I'm not being ironic... but in truth, I see that believing is a better bet than not



Which god?  if you get that one wrong, it's just as bad as not believing.

Part b)  How much of a dick would your god have to be if he would let you go to heaven just by saying "you know, I had no evidence to believe anything, but I decided to say that I believed in you hoping that you would be fooled into thinking I was a true believer and not send me to hell"

God:  "Sounds good, go into heaven"
Ghandi :" I tried to do good things and free people."
God: "Did you believe the way the Catholic Church told you to believe?"
Ghandi: "No, I was a Hindu"
God: "Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to hell you go!"