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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 678
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14325 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 03:51:42 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: I still challenge you, name one perceptible act of good or evil that a human being can accomplish that can not be accomplished without the divine. Without poetry, without sentiment. Without your feelings or emotions. Quantifiable evidence only.


You ask me to define the human experience without naming any of the things that make us human.
 
2013-04-08 03:52:24 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: But when faced with that, do we even need gods to judge and/or guide our actions? Name one perceptible act of good or evil that a human being can accomplish that can not be accomplished without the divine.

I feel we are at an impasse of this discussion as it hinges upon the definition of the divine.

Personally, I feel that love is a divine gift that brings us closer to one another and the great-beyond.
I also feel that creativity, whether it be in science, arts, or what have you, has the inspiration sparks of the divine.

Yet, I know you will have great issue with those statements, as what I described is imperceptible and is in fact intangible.
Only the actions that we take as a result of that love, the selfless acts of love, are the perceptible aspects.
The same goes for creativity.  While it is a thought, it cannot be measured.  Even before we have the full thought, an inspiration enters our mind yet we cannot trace the roots of it.  This is divine nature in my humble opinion.

God is not a static being that watches and judges me as I see it.
God is a verb... it is all around us and the better we tap into what 'walking in the path of God' the better human beings we are.


Cute.  I watched Life of Pi too.
 
2013-04-08 03:54:47 PM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Do you think people have to have a religion, believe in a god, to be concerned about the plight of other people?


Not at all... but I think it helps a great deal.
 
2013-04-08 03:56:45 PM  

vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.


I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.
 
2013-04-08 03:59:55 PM  

give me doughnuts: s2s2s2: give me doughnuts: So your version of Christianity doesn't include the Old Testament?
When did that change happen?

LOL. That may be a sad reflection on your knowledge of the subject, paired with your willingness to boldly speak thereon, but it is hilarious either way

You may want to have a look at this before you comment.


Yeah, still pretty funny.
 
2013-04-08 03:59:59 PM  

NostroZ: Keizer_Ghidorah: Religion prevents people from cynically sitting back and making fun of anyone who has a different idea? God told his followers to go out and either convert or kill those tho refused to convert.

Yes!!!
Religion tempers people to listen to others.
Here's some quotes from a book you only seem to know the parts that you disagree with:

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
Proverbs 19:27 Cease to hear instruction, my son, and you will stray from the words of knowledge.
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.
Proverbs 18:13 If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
Proverbs 11:14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
Proverbs 10:19 When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.


Now if only more Christians would actually FOLLOW what their God says.

HindiDiscoMonster: Agent Smiths Laugh: Besides which, your steps do nothing to refute the point of his statement. A serial rapist murderer could follow your steps (earnestly, "with all his heart", since that seems to be some important measurement) and still be forgiven of all his crimes (or sins as some call them) and earn an eternal paradise. While his victim, who for the sake of argument never accepted Jesus (or followed any of your steps), burns in eternal agony for unbelief.

Deeds do not make someone worthy to enter the kingdom of God as is quite clear in the Bible.

So the murder-rapist not only ultimately gets away with his crimes, but is actively forgiven for all of them and rewarded with eternal bliss, while his victim (whose last moments were of violation, humiliation, pain, and terror) remains unforgiven, and dies only to be punished with eternal violation, humiliation, pain, and terror.

yup, you can view it that way - see my response to the first issue.

How very just and fair of your god.

I know you meant that sarcastically, however, what makes you (a human who is imperfect) believe that you are qualified to judge God (who is perfect - according to the Bible)? [serious question]

But you might argue, "They had a chance for the same forgiveness!" Sure. Sure they did. Right up until they were raped and murdered by your happy new cherub.

Nope, I wouldn't.

Also, as an aside, so who's correct? The denominations that think water baptism is necessary or the ones who don't? What about the multitudes of other denominations that think steps are added or removed from your list? Are they right? What about other religions, are they right?

In order to understand who is correct in any religion (Christianity included), one must find the examples laid forth by the religion's primary prophet/messiah/etc... In other words, was Jesus baptized (in water), or not, etc.


"The Bible says it, therefore it's 100% fact" is not a convincing argument. I can counter with "Twilight says it, therefore it's 100% true".

Since the Bible was written long after the fact by people who never met God or Jesus, everything in it is assuming things about God and Jesus. Therefore Christians are just as guilty at presuming God's will and nature. Maybe the true nature of God is the Islamic one. It doesn't matter in the end, no sane and rational person would follow a being who deliberately makes a mistake and then curses all of the creation he created out of love to punish two humans and all of their descendants for the crime of becoming intelligent.

The Bible also contradicts itself numerous times. It's hard to follow something that can't even agree with itself.
 
2013-04-08 04:03:51 PM  

NostroZ: vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.

I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.


I'm sorry.  No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add thatit's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

 
2013-04-08 04:06:09 PM  

s2s2s2: give me doughnuts: s2s2s2: give me doughnuts: So your version of Christianity doesn't include the Old Testament?
When did that change happen?

LOL. That may be a sad reflection on your knowledge of the subject, paired with your willingness to boldly speak thereon, but it is hilarious either way

You may want to have a look at this before you comment.

Yeah, still pretty funny.


Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you have no idea what was said in the comment i was responding to.
 
2013-04-08 04:07:23 PM  

vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.


I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible
 
2013-04-08 04:07:52 PM  

s2s2s2: give me doughnuts: So your version of Christianity doesn't include the Old Testament?
When did that change happen?

LOL. That may be a sad reflection on your knowledge of the subject, paired with your willingness to boldly speak thereon, but it is hilarious either way


If the Old Testament no longer applies, why do so many Christians use it to justify their bigotry towards gays?

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: even if it means killing other humans living under different God, and you might be actively working against the true God and ensuring a place in hell.

Though shall not kill is a pretty universal commandment.

I do not care what you CALL God... I only care that you walk in the path of God.

/To walk in the path of God is to abstain from stealing (property, life, truth, etc.) and to bring greater harmony / understanding upon this world.
//I believe that there are many paths to the same God
///Morality, the golden rule... is pretty universal... a good deed is a good deed, regardless of which god is being praised while doing it.


God ordered his followers to convert people or kill them and take their lands and belongings if they do not convert.
 
2013-04-08 04:08:39 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: 1 Timothy 6:20 - O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Corinthians 14:38 - But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Timothy 2:11 - "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

To name a few.

That's New Testament... I'm old school.


I.e you cherry-pick, something you blamed others of. I very much doubt that there aren't scriptures, both old and new testament, that you subscribe to. I find it statistically unlikely that you don't adhere to what you like from both.

However, it's holistically irrelevant. They are still scripture from your bible encouraging ignorance and rejection of other ideas.

Regardless, my point was that religion is a force for good overall.
Yes, the Holy Roman empire used Catholicism as a tool of control... but the Roman's were a controlling power hungry bunch to begin with.  If it was not Christianity that they took on, since it was the last vestige of control over a crumbling empire, it would have been any other saving grace.

The argument here is that the EGG came before the CHICKEN.
Humanity's ego-maniacal desire for power came first.  Religion as a social construct came after and tempered the first.


And also empowered it. Or were the crusades and the Spanish inquisition devoid of human ego-mania? Perhaps you overlooked Torquemada.

Hitler? Gott mit uns. And if you doubt for a moment that he invoked god to justify his ideology, you've not seen several of his key speeches.

But yes, human lust for power has always been. We are a competitive species. It's a problem for us. Stalin tried to stamp out religion to protect his power. A polar opposite of Hitler with the same results, cruelty and genocide.

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: I still challenge you, name one perceptible act of good or evil that a human being can accomplish that can not be accomplished without the divine. Without poetry, without sentiment. Without your feelings or emotions. Quantifiable evidence only.

You ask me to define the human experience without naming any of the things that make us human.


No, I asked you for empirical evidence of human actions requiring divine involvement.
 
2013-04-08 04:14:41 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: why do so many Christians use it to justify their bigotry towards gays?


Because they are ignorant.

give me doughnuts: Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you have no idea what was said in the comment i was responding to.


Or you don't understand my response. Feel free to laugh with me.
 
2013-04-08 04:15:02 PM  

NostroZ: Regardless, my point was that religion is a force for good overall.


Bull. It's a force multiplier for the police. Most people will live in fear and minimize the bad things they would normally do because they don't want to go to hell. However, those it doesn't work on will still be horrible humans, or worse, use religion as a weapon itself. The thing is that you don't need God to do any of the positive things. You need a life code, and the billions of Buddhists in the world don't necessarily have a deity they worship, but come out in good shape. Hell, I would say they come out in vastly better shape as humans than Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. Except it didn't work in Japan too well. They just adapted it and still were murdering butchers in the Imperial era. Oh well.
 
2013-04-08 04:15:59 PM  

vactech: NostroZ: vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.

I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.

I'm sorry.  No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add thatit's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.



Are we still doing the midichlorion thing?
 
2013-04-08 04:18:53 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: NostroZ: Regardless, my point was that religion is a force for good overall.

Bull. It's a force multiplier for the police. Most people will live in fear and minimize the bad things they would normally do because they don't want to go to hell. However, those it doesn't work on will still be horrible humans, or worse, use religion as a weapon itself. The thing is that you don't need God to do any of the positive things. You need a life code, and the billions of Buddhists in the world don't necessarily have a deity they worship, but come out in good shape. Hell, I would say they come out in vastly better shape as humans than Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. Except it didn't work in Japan too well. They just adapted it and still were murdering butchers in the Imperial era. Oh well.


You are aware that Buddhism is a religion, yes?
Some call it a philosophy... but it's spiritual in nature... so it's a spiritual philosophy, which we commonly call religion.
 
2013-04-08 04:21:45 PM  

NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible


God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?
 
2013-04-08 04:26:26 PM  

stewmadness: Poor lil boy, 17 years!?


Actually, it was closer to 18. Forced to go to church every Sunday morning, confession every Saturday afternoon, lest I burn in hell for all eternity for not doing so. Sometimes I actually made up stuff to confess because I hadn't done anything bad the previous week. After being told in catechism class (AKA "Saturday morning brainwashing") that masturbation was a mortal sin (meaning, a really bad sin on par with murder and adultery), I no longer had to make stuff up. As I recall, penance for touching yourself was ten "Our Fathers," ten "Hail Marys," and one "Act of Contrition."

To this day, I can recite large portions of the Catholic mass from memory.

Dragonflew: I thought the priests stopped doing that when the kid hits puberty.


Nah. Good ol' Father Mike (mentioned in one of my previous posts) also had an affair with the mother of one of the kids he molested.
 
2013-04-08 04:26:49 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible

God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?


Are you asking if God controls your actions? Partially, but he also obeys your commands.
 
2013-04-08 04:27:53 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?


www.culturefocus.com
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City
 
2013-04-08 04:28:26 PM  

NostroZ: I accept your apology.


Good.  You've taken your first step into a larger world.
 
2013-04-08 04:29:09 PM  

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: Do you think people have to have a religion, believe in a god, to be concerned about the plight of other people?

Not at all... but I think it helps a great deal.


That's what's called an opinion, and it's not even a clear one.
 
2013-04-08 04:35:59 PM  

vactech: Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible

God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

Are you asking if God controls your actions? Partially, but he also obeys your commands.


Shaddup Obi Wan :P
 
2013-04-08 04:36:54 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City



No, that just required a lot of rock, and lots of guys to move it.
 
2013-04-08 04:39:27 PM  

s2s2s2: Keizer_Ghidorah: why do so many Christians use it to justify their bigotry towards gays?

Because they are ignorant.


Makes sense. Adam and Eve and all of humanity were punished for becoming intelligent. Gods generally don't like intelligent followers, they start questioning things.
 
2013-04-08 04:39:31 PM  

give me doughnuts: vactech: NostroZ: vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.

I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.

I'm sorry.  No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add thatit's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.


Are we still doing the midichlorion thing?


Never!  That was never part of the original gospel.

/self indulgent tripe
 
2013-04-08 04:41:16 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


That's where you trip.

Are you saying that an atheist could not build a pyramid?

I've got Jenga blocks and can build a small one on my table right now. Given the right materials, resources, and labor I could build a rather large one.

Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

cdn.enjoyourholiday.com

Built for gambling which is condemned in the bible.
 
2013-04-08 04:42:19 PM  

give me doughnuts: NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


No, that just required a lot of rock, and lots of guys to move it.


"But it was because of religion that they created one of the Great Wonders of the World! See what humans can do with religion?"

Imagine if they had used all of that time, money, and material to build homes, businesses, roads, etc. We'd be down three monuments to the Pharaohs, but up a much better society.
 
2013-04-08 04:45:09 PM  

NostroZ: Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


upload.wikimedia.org
didn't require any religion at all...
 
2013-04-08 04:46:06 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City

That's where you trip.

Are you saying that an atheist could not build a pyramid?

I've got Jenga blocks and can build a small one on my table right now. Given the right materials, resources, and labor I could build a rather large one.

Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

[cdn.enjoyourholiday.com image 800x579]

Built for gambling which is condemned in the bible.


Actually to be fair it is only mentioned tangentially in the bible, but is often condemned by the religious.
 
2013-04-08 04:46:48 PM  
Still doing the contest for the least liked religion?
 
2013-04-08 04:49:38 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Makes sense. Adam and Eve and all of humanity were punished for becoming intelligent. Gods generally don't like intelligent followers, they start questioning things.


I actually like the theory that the OT is several lesser gods, tempting man, leading him astray. Real god only shows up for the good stuff, but leaves man mostly in charge of things we were charged with maintenance of.

Just because it is interesting.

The story of Thoth is a hoot, too.
 
2013-04-08 05:05:03 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?


That is what I am saying.

No secular civilization of antiquity could achieve great things like the Pyramids without a belief in an after-life and that service to the Pharaoh affected it positively.

What you are doing is using reverse logic by saying that big building are built for non-religious purposes... but what I'm saying is that the FIRST BIG BUILDING were built directly as a result of religion.  We are standing on the shoulders of giants.  The people that came before us, the one's who invented how to build big buildings were religious and built Pyramids, Ziggurats, and other large structures for the purpose of burial (religious).
 
2013-04-08 05:09:00 PM  

ciberido: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)

Well then you obviously haven't spoken to them about what they believe. Some Unitarians believe in god, a lot are atheist, a lot more fall into the Spinoza's god territory.

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

Yes, but it is you who is claiming that all Unitarians believe in a god of some kind, and if you're going to talk about a group of people and what they believe in, then it is usually helpful to actually know something about what they believe in -cause then you'd know what you're talking about, and that's always a good thing.


It's possible that the disagreement the two of you are having comes from the fact that, historically speaking, you're referring to two different groups that merged.: the Unitarians and the Universalists, who are now one body collectively known as Unitarian-Universalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarians

It's easy to confuse them.


yes, fair enough, I think that is the source of confusion; it's a rather secondary point though -the broader disagreement (and the point which provoked a certain animosity on my part) is the suggestion that being involved in any kind of church or spiritual community makes you complicit in anti-scientific religious fanatacism, and that you have to be either a total fundie or a 100%-certain atheist. It's a false dichotomy that gets thrown around too often.
I don't know what's out there; I'm pretty sure it's not exactly what's written in any of the holy books of the world, but I'm kinda leaning toward the notion that it's more than nothing, and perhaps we'll understand it all in scientific terms some day, but for the moment I take scientific evidence at face-value while acknowledging that there are still some other questions it can't answer.

And then I get all kinds of "BLARG, YOU'RE WITH US OR AGAINST US!" screaming between the religious ideologues. Which I find kinda frustrating sometimes.
 
2013-04-08 05:09:09 PM  

NostroZ: Though shall not kill is a pretty universal commandment.


Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.

Thou shalt not kill is a good rule to live by, but I don't need God or religion to tell me that. Nor am I going to let a man that claims to talk to God tell me when to bypass that rule no matter what holy book he uses to justify it,

NostroZ: I do not care what you CALL God... I only care that you walk in the path of God.


God is whomever the people in charge say God is, the path is laid out by them, it's twists, turns, and steps, designed to make you dance for their benefit and enjoyment. Dance well and be rewarded, misstep and be discarded. The great and powerful God does exist, he is the man behind the curtain. Pull back the curtain and reveal the man and no longer is he God.
 
2013-04-08 05:16:07 PM  

Rabbitgod: Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.


It seems that you like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You seem to be smart enough to realize that men justify their hatred... with or without religion.

Therefore, religion is not the source of evil... but man is.

Here's a handy list of things Atheists and Christians should agree on as per Cracked.com
One of those things is not painting all believers with a single brush stroke of "murderers, gay bashers, anti-religious, etc."  It is rude to call people names and generalize a whole population you do not agree with.
 
2013-04-08 05:19:31 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: That's just like your opinion man.

Know why christianity keeps changing? Zeitgeist. Same with all other religions.

Christianity doesn't change. People change.


Religions are in constant change because the people who believe in them are in constant change. That's why I keep bringing up zeitgeist. It's the zeitgeist that counts, not the texts.

Christianity is the same today as it was when it was first made.

What christianity being the same today as it was two thousand years ago might look like:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 05:20:38 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.


i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-08 05:24:46 PM  
I'll stick with the Tooth Fairy.

He doesn't kill us, or inflict terrible diseases, or tornadoes, or tsunamis on us.
 
2013-04-08 05:25:03 PM  
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1784
 
2013-04-08 05:25:17 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

That is what I am saying.

No secular civilization of antiquity could achieve great things like the Pyramids without a belief in an after-life and that service to the Pharaoh affected it positively.

What you are doing is using reverse logic by saying that big building are built for non-religious purposes... but what I'm saying is that the FIRST BIG BUILDING were built directly as a result of religion.  We are standing on the shoulders of giants.  The people that came before us, the one's who invented how to build big buildings were religious and built Pyramids, Ziggurats, and other large structures for the purpose of burial (religious).


And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to? Are you saying they lacked free will?

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
 
2013-04-08 05:26:36 PM  

NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.


Oh, so close.  You even mentioned it, you know:

Agriculture, which allowed the production of Beer.

You need stable locations for that.  And a means of exchange.  Before Beer, hunting and gathering was sufficient.  Post-Beer, communities became necessary.

Beer, not religion, is the driving force behind "civilization", inasmuch as it was necessary for Beer's large-scale production and distribution.  That was motivation enough to create "civilization", and produced a tangible benefit.
 
2013-04-08 05:33:29 PM  
Agent Smiths Laugh: And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?  There is proof that Egyptian society revolved around a worship of the afterlife and working towards it.  I cannot comment on what people in the future will say about us, but I can say that there is little evidence that will point to either the Luxor or Space Needle as being religious in nature.

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to?

Correct.  Religion is a mental construct and without it, I certainly doubt the Egyptians would have been able to achieve the Pyramids. Comparing other civilizations around the region, they did not have the cosmology or mythology of Egypt, nor did they have the achievements.  The Greeks borrowed a lot from the Egyptians (as did the Jews) and prospered as a civilization directly afterwards.

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
I'll take your word on that one.
 
2013-04-08 05:41:40 PM  

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x351]


Your picture doesn't match the question.
 
2013-04-08 05:50:57 PM  

Deucednuisance: NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

Oh, so close.  You even mentioned it, you know:

Agriculture, which allowed the production of Beer.

You need stable locations for that.  And a means of exchange.  Before Beer, hunting and gathering was sufficient.  Post-Beer, communities became necessary.

Beer, not religion, is the driving force behind "civilization", inasmuch as it was necessary for Beer's large-scale production and distribution.  That was motivation enough to create "civilization", and produced a tangible benefit.


Funny enough, there's a documentary about that!
How Beer Saved the World
 
2013-04-08 06:33:36 PM  

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.

It seems that you like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You seem to be smart enough to realize that men justify their hatred... with or without religion.

Therefore, religion is not the source of evil... but man is.

Here's a handy list of things Atheists and Christians should agree on as per Cracked.com
One of those things is not painting all believers with a single brush stroke of "murderers, gay bashers, anti-religious, etc."  It is rude to call people names and generalize a whole population you do not agree with.


Sadly you don't seem smart enough to get the point, but I will try once more.

All good and all evil come from men because their is no God. But religion and God is what evil men use to not only justify their actions but get otherwise good people to support them. 

"I know you feel pity for the heathen non believers, and that is ok because you a good person, because you are one of God's children, but beware your pity, for you waste on the heathen and anger God! Save it for your brothers who will die as we drive these heathens God's land, as God commands."   -A paraphrase of countless religious leaders, during countless points of history, to justify the murder of countless innocents.
 
2013-04-08 06:37:46 PM  

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?  There is proof that Egyptian society revolved around a worship of the afterlife and working towards it.  I cannot comment on what people in the future will say about us, but I can say that there is little evidence that will point to either the Luxor or Space Needle as being religious in nature.

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to?
Correct.  Religion is a mental construct and without it, I certainly doubt the Egyptians would have been able to achieve the Pyramids. Comparing other civilizations around the region, they did not have the cosmology or mythology of Egypt, nor did they have the achievements.  The Greeks borrowed a lot from the Egyptians (as did the Jews) and prospered as a civilization directly afterwards.

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
I'll take your word on that one.


Imagine the good it would have done to build a building that big for the entire society and not as a magical focus to send one Pharaoh's soul to join Ra and Set and Osiris.
 
2013-04-08 06:43:39 PM  

Biological Ali: "Dislike for gays" is not synonymous with "Support the death penalty against gay people".


You are only going to get support for the death penalty in a society where it is ok to dislike gays.  That attitude is prevalent in muslims even in the first world.

Biological Ali: In this case I was comparing Iran to Uganda, where the numbers certainly are on par. There are other places in Africa where things are even worse, though the discussion is complicated by poor record-keeping


I am not sure how a one country to one country comparison really helps if you are talking about worldwide religious attitudes.

If you are just comparing Iran and Uganda we know that Uganda doesn't feel strongly enough about it to vote for death penalty for gays.  Iran's attitudes are unknown but we know legally they can be killed so I am not sure how you are going to argue it is better.

s2s2s2: I have established that it is.

If the same part of the brain is at play in either scenario(sports/church), and you don't believe there even is a god, then there is no difference in reality, apart from rules and manners.


No, you haven't established it.

There is a difference "in reality" because the effects of religion are far more wide reaching than how they effect an individual's brain (which you still need to back up).
 
2013-04-08 06:55:28 PM  

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x351]


Except that it was referring to Ezekiel 15:2, which states

2 "Son of man, how is the wood of a vine better than that of a branch on any of the trees in the forest? 3 Is wood ever taken from it to make anything useful? Do they make pegs from it to hang things on? 4 And after it is thrown on the fire as fuel and the fire burns both ends and chars the middle, is it then useful for anything? 5 If it was not useful for anything when it was whole, how much less can it be made into something useful when the fire has burned it and it is charred?

Much of the NT is composed of oblique references to the OT.
 
2013-04-08 07:17:48 PM  

Rabbitgod: Sadly you don't seem smart enough to get the point, but I will try once more.

All good and all evil come from men because their is no God


You sound so sure of yourself.
Your omniscience is only surpassed by your good manners and grammar.
 
2013-04-08 07:24:49 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Imagine the good it would have done to build a building that big for the entire society and not as a magical focus to send one Pharaoh's soul to join Ra and Set and Osiris.


I believe you are putting the cart before the horse.

Religion and the Pharaoh's place as God on Earth allowed for the majestic architecture known as the Great Pyramids.
 
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