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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 724
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14314 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 04:15:02 PM

NostroZ: Regardless, my point was that religion is a force for good overall.


Bull. It's a force multiplier for the police. Most people will live in fear and minimize the bad things they would normally do because they don't want to go to hell. However, those it doesn't work on will still be horrible humans, or worse, use religion as a weapon itself. The thing is that you don't need God to do any of the positive things. You need a life code, and the billions of Buddhists in the world don't necessarily have a deity they worship, but come out in good shape. Hell, I would say they come out in vastly better shape as humans than Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. Except it didn't work in Japan too well. They just adapted it and still were murdering butchers in the Imperial era. Oh well.
 
2013-04-08 04:15:59 PM

vactech: NostroZ: vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.

I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.

I'm sorry.  No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add thatit's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.



Are we still doing the midichlorion thing?
 
2013-04-08 04:18:53 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: NostroZ: Regardless, my point was that religion is a force for good overall.

Bull. It's a force multiplier for the police. Most people will live in fear and minimize the bad things they would normally do because they don't want to go to hell. However, those it doesn't work on will still be horrible humans, or worse, use religion as a weapon itself. The thing is that you don't need God to do any of the positive things. You need a life code, and the billions of Buddhists in the world don't necessarily have a deity they worship, but come out in good shape. Hell, I would say they come out in vastly better shape as humans than Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. Except it didn't work in Japan too well. They just adapted it and still were murdering butchers in the Imperial era. Oh well.


You are aware that Buddhism is a religion, yes?
Some call it a philosophy... but it's spiritual in nature... so it's a spiritual philosophy, which we commonly call religion.
 
2013-04-08 04:21:45 PM

NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible


God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?
 
2013-04-08 04:26:26 PM

stewmadness: Poor lil boy, 17 years!?


Actually, it was closer to 18. Forced to go to church every Sunday morning, confession every Saturday afternoon, lest I burn in hell for all eternity for not doing so. Sometimes I actually made up stuff to confess because I hadn't done anything bad the previous week. After being told in catechism class (AKA "Saturday morning brainwashing") that masturbation was a mortal sin (meaning, a really bad sin on par with murder and adultery), I no longer had to make stuff up. As I recall, penance for touching yourself was ten "Our Fathers," ten "Hail Marys," and one "Act of Contrition."

To this day, I can recite large portions of the Catholic mass from memory.

Dragonflew: I thought the priests stopped doing that when the kid hits puberty.


Nah. Good ol' Father Mike (mentioned in one of my previous posts) also had an affair with the mother of one of the kids he molested.
 
2013-04-08 04:26:49 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible

God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?


Are you asking if God controls your actions? Partially, but he also obeys your commands.
 
2013-04-08 04:27:53 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?


www.culturefocus.com
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City
 
2013-04-08 04:28:26 PM

NostroZ: I accept your apology.


Good.  You've taken your first step into a larger world.
 
2013-04-08 04:29:09 PM

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: Do you think people have to have a religion, believe in a god, to be concerned about the plight of other people?

Not at all... but I think it helps a great deal.


That's what's called an opinion, and it's not even a clear one.
 
2013-04-08 04:35:59 PM

vactech: Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: vactech: I'm sorry. No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add that it's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

I accept your apology.

/God is what binds the galaxy together
//God is present in all things
///God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible

God is what you think he is. But then, aren't they always? Ask any two believers of any theistic religion, and you will get differing accounts of who/what god is. Even in the most fundamental of religious sects no two people have the exact same concept of god. There are those who would vehemently disagree with your statement "God is not the narrow definition of the King James Bible" (which you have also quoted a few times, which is ironic). So what is god really but a mental construct created on an individual basis? Do we have any practical need for that construct? What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

Are you asking if God controls your actions? Partially, but he also obeys your commands.


Shaddup Obi Wan :P
 
2013-04-08 04:36:54 PM

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City



No, that just required a lot of rock, and lots of guys to move it.
 
2013-04-08 04:39:27 PM

s2s2s2: Keizer_Ghidorah: why do so many Christians use it to justify their bigotry towards gays?

Because they are ignorant.


Makes sense. Adam and Eve and all of humanity were punished for becoming intelligent. Gods generally don't like intelligent followers, they start questioning things.
 
2013-04-08 04:39:31 PM

give me doughnuts: vactech: NostroZ: vactech: Cute. I watched Life of Pi too.

I didn't... but go ahead, write off universal human experiences as a 'cute play on film'.

It's not that art imitates life... no... we're all just regurgitating movie sound bites to you.

I'm sorry.  No, you're right, God is a verb... it is all around us.

But might I add thatit's also an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.


Are we still doing the midichlorion thing?


Never!  That was never part of the original gospel.

/self indulgent tripe
 
2013-04-08 04:41:16 PM

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


That's where you trip.

Are you saying that an atheist could not build a pyramid?

I've got Jenga blocks and can build a small one on my table right now. Given the right materials, resources, and labor I could build a rather large one.

Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

cdn.enjoyourholiday.com

Built for gambling which is condemned in the bible.
 
2013-04-08 04:42:19 PM

give me doughnuts: NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


No, that just required a lot of rock, and lots of guys to move it.


"But it was because of religion that they created one of the Great Wonders of the World! See what humans can do with religion?"

Imagine if they had used all of that time, money, and material to build homes, businesses, roads, etc. We'd be down three monuments to the Pharaohs, but up a much better society.
 
2013-04-08 04:45:09 PM

NostroZ: Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City


upload.wikimedia.org
didn't require any religion at all...
 
2013-04-08 04:46:06 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: What can't we accomplish without inventing personal definitions of god?

[www.culturefocus.com image 400x273]
Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City

That's where you trip.

Are you saying that an atheist could not build a pyramid?

I've got Jenga blocks and can build a small one on my table right now. Given the right materials, resources, and labor I could build a rather large one.

Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

[cdn.enjoyourholiday.com image 800x579]

Built for gambling which is condemned in the bible.


Actually to be fair it is only mentioned tangentially in the bible, but is often condemned by the religious.
 
2013-04-08 04:46:48 PM
Still doing the contest for the least liked religion?
 
2013-04-08 04:49:38 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Makes sense. Adam and Eve and all of humanity were punished for becoming intelligent. Gods generally don't like intelligent followers, they start questioning things.


I actually like the theory that the OT is several lesser gods, tempting man, leading him astray. Real god only shows up for the good stuff, but leaves man mostly in charge of things we were charged with maintenance of.

Just because it is interesting.

The story of Thoth is a hoot, too.
 
2013-04-08 05:05:03 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?


That is what I am saying.

No secular civilization of antiquity could achieve great things like the Pyramids without a belief in an after-life and that service to the Pharaoh affected it positively.

What you are doing is using reverse logic by saying that big building are built for non-religious purposes... but what I'm saying is that the FIRST BIG BUILDING were built directly as a result of religion.  We are standing on the shoulders of giants.  The people that came before us, the one's who invented how to build big buildings were religious and built Pyramids, Ziggurats, and other large structures for the purpose of burial (religious).
 
2013-04-08 05:09:00 PM

ciberido: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)

Well then you obviously haven't spoken to them about what they believe. Some Unitarians believe in god, a lot are atheist, a lot more fall into the Spinoza's god territory.

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

Yes, but it is you who is claiming that all Unitarians believe in a god of some kind, and if you're going to talk about a group of people and what they believe in, then it is usually helpful to actually know something about what they believe in -cause then you'd know what you're talking about, and that's always a good thing.


It's possible that the disagreement the two of you are having comes from the fact that, historically speaking, you're referring to two different groups that merged.: the Unitarians and the Universalists, who are now one body collectively known as Unitarian-Universalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarians

It's easy to confuse them.


yes, fair enough, I think that is the source of confusion; it's a rather secondary point though -the broader disagreement (and the point which provoked a certain animosity on my part) is the suggestion that being involved in any kind of church or spiritual community makes you complicit in anti-scientific religious fanatacism, and that you have to be either a total fundie or a 100%-certain atheist. It's a false dichotomy that gets thrown around too often.
I don't know what's out there; I'm pretty sure it's not exactly what's written in any of the holy books of the world, but I'm kinda leaning toward the notion that it's more than nothing, and perhaps we'll understand it all in scientific terms some day, but for the moment I take scientific evidence at face-value while acknowledging that there are still some other questions it can't answer.

And then I get all kinds of "BLARG, YOU'RE WITH US OR AGAINST US!" screaming between the religious ideologues. Which I find kinda frustrating sometimes.
 
2013-04-08 05:09:09 PM

NostroZ: Though shall not kill is a pretty universal commandment.


Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.

Thou shalt not kill is a good rule to live by, but I don't need God or religion to tell me that. Nor am I going to let a man that claims to talk to God tell me when to bypass that rule no matter what holy book he uses to justify it,

NostroZ: I do not care what you CALL God... I only care that you walk in the path of God.


God is whomever the people in charge say God is, the path is laid out by them, it's twists, turns, and steps, designed to make you dance for their benefit and enjoyment. Dance well and be rewarded, misstep and be discarded. The great and powerful God does exist, he is the man behind the curtain. Pull back the curtain and reveal the man and no longer is he God.
 
2013-04-08 05:16:07 PM

Rabbitgod: Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.


It seems that you like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You seem to be smart enough to realize that men justify their hatred... with or without religion.

Therefore, religion is not the source of evil... but man is.

Here's a handy list of things Atheists and Christians should agree on as per Cracked.com
One of those things is not painting all believers with a single brush stroke of "murderers, gay bashers, anti-religious, etc."  It is rude to call people names and generalize a whole population you do not agree with.
 
2013-04-08 05:19:31 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: That's just like your opinion man.

Know why christianity keeps changing? Zeitgeist. Same with all other religions.

Christianity doesn't change. People change.


Religions are in constant change because the people who believe in them are in constant change. That's why I keep bringing up zeitgeist. It's the zeitgeist that counts, not the texts.

Christianity is the same today as it was when it was first made.

What christianity being the same today as it was two thousand years ago might look like:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 05:20:38 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.


i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-08 05:24:46 PM
I'll stick with the Tooth Fairy.

He doesn't kill us, or inflict terrible diseases, or tornadoes, or tsunamis on us.
 
2013-04-08 05:25:03 PM
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1784
 
2013-04-08 05:25:17 PM

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: Are you saying any secular organization, or motivation could not build a pyramid (or any great structure)?

That is what I am saying.

No secular civilization of antiquity could achieve great things like the Pyramids without a belief in an after-life and that service to the Pharaoh affected it positively.

What you are doing is using reverse logic by saying that big building are built for non-religious purposes... but what I'm saying is that the FIRST BIG BUILDING were built directly as a result of religion.  We are standing on the shoulders of giants.  The people that came before us, the one's who invented how to build big buildings were religious and built Pyramids, Ziggurats, and other large structures for the purpose of burial (religious).


And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to? Are you saying they lacked free will?

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
 
2013-04-08 05:26:36 PM

NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.


Oh, so close.  You even mentioned it, you know:

Agriculture, which allowed the production of Beer.

You need stable locations for that.  And a means of exchange.  Before Beer, hunting and gathering was sufficient.  Post-Beer, communities became necessary.

Beer, not religion, is the driving force behind "civilization", inasmuch as it was necessary for Beer's large-scale production and distribution.  That was motivation enough to create "civilization", and produced a tangible benefit.
 
2013-04-08 05:33:29 PM
Agent Smiths Laugh: And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?  There is proof that Egyptian society revolved around a worship of the afterlife and working towards it.  I cannot comment on what people in the future will say about us, but I can say that there is little evidence that will point to either the Luxor or Space Needle as being religious in nature.

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to?

Correct.  Religion is a mental construct and without it, I certainly doubt the Egyptians would have been able to achieve the Pyramids. Comparing other civilizations around the region, they did not have the cosmology or mythology of Egypt, nor did they have the achievements.  The Greeks borrowed a lot from the Egyptians (as did the Jews) and prospered as a civilization directly afterwards.

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
I'll take your word on that one.
 
2013-04-08 05:41:40 PM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x351]


Your picture doesn't match the question.
 
2013-04-08 05:50:57 PM

Deucednuisance: NostroZ: Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

Oh, so close.  You even mentioned it, you know:

Agriculture, which allowed the production of Beer.

You need stable locations for that.  And a means of exchange.  Before Beer, hunting and gathering was sufficient.  Post-Beer, communities became necessary.

Beer, not religion, is the driving force behind "civilization", inasmuch as it was necessary for Beer's large-scale production and distribution.  That was motivation enough to create "civilization", and produced a tangible benefit.


Funny enough, there's a documentary about that!
How Beer Saved the World
 
2013-04-08 06:33:36 PM

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: Funny how that commandment has worked out during the crusades, civil rights movement, LGBT equality, or 9/11. All of these events were filled with unneeded violence and death because of men that claim to know the will of God, and used a book of God written by men, to justify their vile hatred.

It seems that you like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You seem to be smart enough to realize that men justify their hatred... with or without religion.

Therefore, religion is not the source of evil... but man is.

Here's a handy list of things Atheists and Christians should agree on as per Cracked.com
One of those things is not painting all believers with a single brush stroke of "murderers, gay bashers, anti-religious, etc."  It is rude to call people names and generalize a whole population you do not agree with.


Sadly you don't seem smart enough to get the point, but I will try once more.

All good and all evil come from men because their is no God. But religion and God is what evil men use to not only justify their actions but get otherwise good people to support them. 

"I know you feel pity for the heathen non believers, and that is ok because you a good person, because you are one of God's children, but beware your pity, for you waste on the heathen and anger God! Save it for your brothers who will die as we drive these heathens God's land, as God commands."   -A paraphrase of countless religious leaders, during countless points of history, to justify the murder of countless innocents.
 
2013-04-08 06:37:46 PM

NostroZ: Agent Smiths Laugh: And yet in a thousand years will people insist that the Luxor or the Space Needle (or any number of other grand structures) could not have been built without religious inspiration?  There is proof that Egyptian society revolved around a worship of the afterlife and working towards it.  I cannot comment on what people in the future will say about us, but I can say that there is little evidence that will point to either the Luxor or Space Needle as being religious in nature.

Are you saying that there is no conceivable way that the Egyptians could have (as in had the human potential to) build the pyramids without religious inspiration? Granted, we know they did do it out of religious inspiration, but are you saying they were physically, and mentally incapable of doing so for any other reason had they chose to?
Correct.  Religion is a mental construct and without it, I certainly doubt the Egyptians would have been able to achieve the Pyramids. Comparing other civilizations around the region, they did not have the cosmology or mythology of Egypt, nor did they have the achievements.  The Greeks borrowed a lot from the Egyptians (as did the Jews) and prospered as a civilization directly afterwards.

Just because they did something for a particular reason does not mean that they had to do it for that reason.
I'll take your word on that one.


Imagine the good it would have done to build a building that big for the entire society and not as a magical focus to send one Pharaoh's soul to join Ra and Set and Osiris.
 
2013-04-08 06:43:39 PM

Biological Ali: "Dislike for gays" is not synonymous with "Support the death penalty against gay people".


You are only going to get support for the death penalty in a society where it is ok to dislike gays.  That attitude is prevalent in muslims even in the first world.

Biological Ali: In this case I was comparing Iran to Uganda, where the numbers certainly are on par. There are other places in Africa where things are even worse, though the discussion is complicated by poor record-keeping


I am not sure how a one country to one country comparison really helps if you are talking about worldwide religious attitudes.

If you are just comparing Iran and Uganda we know that Uganda doesn't feel strongly enough about it to vote for death penalty for gays.  Iran's attitudes are unknown but we know legally they can be killed so I am not sure how you are going to argue it is better.

s2s2s2: I have established that it is.

If the same part of the brain is at play in either scenario(sports/church), and you don't believe there even is a god, then there is no difference in reality, apart from rules and manners.


No, you haven't established it.

There is a difference "in reality" because the effects of religion are far more wide reaching than how they effect an individual's brain (which you still need to back up).
 
2013-04-08 06:55:28 PM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x351]


Except that it was referring to Ezekiel 15:2, which states

2 "Son of man, how is the wood of a vine better than that of a branch on any of the trees in the forest? 3 Is wood ever taken from it to make anything useful? Do they make pegs from it to hang things on? 4 And after it is thrown on the fire as fuel and the fire burns both ends and chars the middle, is it then useful for anything? 5 If it was not useful for anything when it was whole, how much less can it be made into something useful when the fire has burned it and it is charred?

Much of the NT is composed of oblique references to the OT.
 
2013-04-08 07:17:48 PM

Rabbitgod: Sadly you don't seem smart enough to get the point, but I will try once more.

All good and all evil come from men because their is no God


You sound so sure of yourself.
Your omniscience is only surpassed by your good manners and grammar.
 
2013-04-08 07:22:59 PM

give me doughnuts: HindiDiscoMonster: give me doughnuts: HindiDiscoMonster: Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: That's just like your opinion man.

Know why christianity keeps changing? Zeitgeist. Same with all other religions.

Christianity doesn't change. People change. Christianity is the same today as it was when it was first made.

So how many witch-burnings have you been to lately?

are you really that dumb or are you attempting to troll me?

Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

/I won't hold my breath

So your version of Christianity doesn't include the Old Testament?
When did that change happen?


I never said it wasn't. No change has occurred. If you want to use the OT then by all means, point out the burn the witch passage.
 
2013-04-08 07:24:49 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Imagine the good it would have done to build a building that big for the entire society and not as a magical focus to send one Pharaoh's soul to join Ra and Set and Osiris.


I believe you are putting the cart before the horse.

Religion and the Pharaoh's place as God on Earth allowed for the majestic architecture known as the Great Pyramids.
 
2013-04-08 07:24:54 PM

maddogdelta: NostroZ: Required a belief in an afterlife and that possessions could be taken with you... same goes for China's Forbidden City

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x222]
didn't require any religion at all...


better check your data... there was an awful lot of prayer when they did that.

/just sayin'
 
2013-04-08 07:26:18 PM

s2s2s2: Keizer_Ghidorah: Makes sense. Adam and Eve and all of humanity were punished for becoming intelligent. Gods generally don't like intelligent followers, they start questioning things.

I actually like the theory that the OT is several lesser gods, tempting man, leading him astray. Real god only shows up for the good stuff, but leaves man mostly in charge of things we were charged with maintenance of.

Just because it is interesting.

The story of Thoth is a hoot, too.


I always liked him in AD&D... very useful tool.
 
2013-04-08 07:26:47 PM
The one useful thing about atheists is that the Muslims cut their heads off first.
 
2013-04-08 07:27:46 PM

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Please show me the passage in the new testament which says "thou shalt burn the witch" or something similar.

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x351]


once again you bring out a passage that has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. I didn't realize they had braille monitors for PCs.
 
2013-04-08 07:29:29 PM

Inflatable Rhetoric: I'll stick with the Tooth Fairy.

He doesn't kill us, or inflict terrible diseases, or tornadoes, or tsunamis on us.


he can be a real dick
 
2013-04-08 07:37:28 PM
It's "spot on" if you're a lying piece of shiat moron who will spout any ridiculous crap as long as it lets you crap all over atheists.

What a bunch of shiat, trollmitter.
 
2013-04-08 07:43:39 PM

liam76: I am not sure how a one country to one country comparison really helps if you are talking about worldwide religious attitudes.

If you are just comparing Iran and Uganda we know that Uganda doesn't feel strongly enough about it to vote for death penalty for gays. Iran's attitudes are unknown but we know legally they can be killed so I am not sure how you are going to argue it is better.


I'm not talking about something nebulous like "worldwide religious attitudes". I'm talking about things that actually happen either directly in the name of religion or that religion is complicit in. To that end, my only claim was that you will find places, such as Uganda, where violence occurs in the name of religion that is on par with the kind of brutality you see in the Middle East.

The fact that some autocracy has declared that some people can be "legally" killed is meaningless here, because it's not only irrelevant to my point but it also has nothing to do with your own tangent about "attitudes". I can't think of any reason that you would take issue with anything I've said, except that perhaps you didn't understand what I was saying (it certainly wasn't that "it is better", whatever that means).
 
2013-04-08 07:54:35 PM

Biological Ali: I'm not talking about something nebulous like "worldwide religious attitudes". I'm talking about things that actually happen either directly in the name of religion or that religion is complicit in. To that end, my only claim was that you will find places, such as Uganda, where violence occurs in the name of religion that is on par with the kind of brutality you see in the Middle East.


Once again it i snot "on par" when in one case it is fully endorsed by the govt and int he other it isn't.


Biological Ali: The fact that some autocracy has declared that some people can be "legally" killed is meaningless here, because it's not only irrelevant to my point but it also has nothing to do with your own tangent about "attitudes". I can't think of any reason that you would take issue with anything I've said, except that perhaps you didn't understand what I was saying (it certainly wasn't that "it is better", whatever that means).


You were trying to pretend that Christianity is just as bad as Islam when it comes to the treatment of gays because you could name one Christian country where a law to kill them was almost passed.  That simply isn't true.  Even though attitudes of Christians in places like Egypt are more "barbaric" they still on on par with Islam.  If that wasn't your point I don't see how it is relevant in this thread.
 
2013-04-08 08:04:29 PM

liam76: Once again it i snot "on par" when in one case it is fully endorsed by the govt and int he other it isn't.


When similar numbers of people are killed for being gay in two countries, I'd say they're "on par" when it comes to that kind of religious violence. The fact that it's "fully endorsed" by an autocratic government in one case and only quietly (relatively speaking) encouraged and condoned by an elected civilian government in the other case doesn't really matter here. I'm not saying it isn't an interesting detail - just that it has nothing to do with what I'm saying here.

liam76: You were trying to pretend that Christianity is just as bad as Islam when it comes to the treatment of gays because you could name one Christian country where a law to kill them was almost passed.  That simply isn't true.  Even though attitudes of Christians in places like Egypt are more "barbaric" they still on on par with Islam.  If that wasn't your point I don't see how it is relevant in this thread.


I don't even know what you're trying to say here.
 
2013-04-08 08:16:19 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: there was an awful lot of prayer when they did that.


And that prayer was about as effective as the prayers to feed starving children around the world...
 
2013-04-08 08:16:43 PM

Biological Ali: liam76: Once again it i snot "on par" when in one case it is fully endorsed by the govt and int he other it isn't.

When similar numbers of people are killed for being gay in two countries, I'd say they're "on par" when it comes to that kind of religious violence. The fact that it's "fully endorsed" by an autocratic government in one case and only quietly (relatively speaking) encouraged and condoned by an elected civilian government in the other case doesn't really matter here. I'm not saying it isn't an interesting detail - just that it has nothing to do with what I'm saying here.


They aren't on par (when you are looking at the attitudes of the people in the country) unless you know how much support they have from the average joe.  And that is what matters here.

Biological Ali: liam76: You were trying to pretend that Christianity is just as bad as Islam when it comes to the treatment of gays because you could name one Christian country where a law to kill them was almost passed. That simply isn't true. Even though attitudes of Christians in places like Egypt Uganda are more "barbaric" then they are in the west they still on on par with Islam. If that wasn't your point I don't see how it is relevant in this thread.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here


FTFM

Hope that helps, if not, how about this.

What is your point in bringing up this very selective contrast of these two nations if it isn't to try and pretend that Christians are just as bad when it comes to gays?
 
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