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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 678
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14323 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 11:39:17 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


The societies that contributed to those things were pretty damned religious. Furthermore, after the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Church more or less kept the Classical knowledge alive during the Dark Ages.
 
2013-04-08 11:42:39 AM  

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.

Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.


Really?  You haven't heard about the Inquisition?
 
2013-04-08 11:48:07 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: SpikeStrip: i'll stop hating mormonism when utah starts allowing music

good news!
you can stop hating now.

or now

mark your calendar for June 4th - Alice Cooper

But you can keep hating Muslims, right?

oh geez, you with your stupid straw man again.  You really are lame with these stupid and false attacks.
You aren't even funny anymore.

check yourself before you wreck yourself.

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

So you know what farking thread you are posting in?  (hint:  check the top, look at the writing in green)
(extra hint:  It is a thread about atheists being Islamaphobe hate mongers.)

I was agreeing that they are intolerant.


Ho ho, ha, ha, turn, parry, dodge, spin, thrust! *phdoing!*  (WTF went wrong?)
 
2013-04-08 11:50:00 AM  

IlGreven: jso2897: IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.

I didn't mean atheists, I meant atheism.  The biggest target for atheism should be people who would become atheists "but for" something that atheists do that offends them (and like it or not, fence-sitters in religion see atheists as a group, not as individuals).  I think the crap spouted by Atheism+ does more to drive potential "converts" away from doing so than anything Sam Harris does.

...and now that I think about it, A+ has, in fact, been big on "locking out" those atheists who don't agree ...


It's not a friggin' club I belong to, and I'm not interested in expanding the "membership". There is no actual "thing" called "atheism", in my world. It's just my personal worldview- nothing more, nothing less.
I didn't "decide" to "become" and atheist, any more than I "decided" to become heterosexual.
The whole concept (of someone "becoming" an atheist) is alien to me.
 
2013-04-08 11:50:26 AM  

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,

How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

[i560.photobucket.com image 512x668]


Why do you think they called it the "Dark Ages". 50 million were killed by Jesus lovers.
 
2013-04-08 11:52:33 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


My friend.  People in power do not like ANYONE undermining their authority.  This has nothing to do with religion.  It's human greed.

Religion allowed for a hierarchical society that is necessary to achieve great things (like the Pyramids) and farming.  With the Pharaoh being a representative for God, a whole social construct that we use today in business developed.  With farming mathematics was needed to divide the fields following the Nile's annual flooding.  With advanced mathematics the Pharaoh's court was able to predict eclipses and other astral anomalies. With more leisure time as a result of specialization and farming, the Egyptians developed games, like bowling (really, look it up).

The same arc of development can be seen for the Greeks after the develop their mythology.

There will always be bad apples, in religion or not.  But to ascribe all evil to religion ignores the extraordinary good that it does for civilization.
 
2013-04-08 11:55:06 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.


You're being trolled. Hard.
 
2013-04-08 11:57:14 AM  

miss diminutive: staplermofo: I love hatred threads.  If there was a clothing line by that name I would wear only their stuff.

Isn't their clothing line a sheet with two holes cut in it?


It could also be all black from head to toe.  A black beret and some aesthetically or ironically placed bling.  Or a pair of rubber boots, bib  overalls held up by one strap, a mossy oak hat, and a sprig of wheat clenched between their teeth.
 
2013-04-08 11:59:58 AM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Really? You haven't heard about the Inquisition?


That was against the Jews and Muslims... nothing to see here.

Business as usual in Europe... move along citizen.

/In Capitalism this phenomenon was called McCarthyism... a witch-hunt by the fanatical against their perceived moral enemies.
//Lets not pretend that religion has anything to do with people in power oppressing a minority group they deem dangerous.
///Look up Eugene V. Debs and that he was sentenced to prison for saying that he supported the anti-war movement in WW2.
 
2013-04-08 12:02:00 PM  

Marine1: ciberido: RobSeace: ciberido: Perhaps someone who's actually been to an atheist convention would care to comment on how many people there were nonwhite or female?

We have conventions now??

The national convention in the USA was in March and the global convention is in Australia in five days.  Also, American Atheists was founded in 1963 and has a board of directors.

So it's like church, but with none of the redemption or awesome food afterwards and all of the effort in getting somewhere when you just want to sleep.

I thought they were supposed to be smarter and more logic-driven than us, man. Reading that was like having a discussion with my Jewish girlfriend's dad about how he buys lottery tickets.


I think you'll find that a very, very tiny minority of all atheists attend these conventions... I've never even heard of them before now, and I've been an atheist all my life (going on 42 years now)! And, now having heard of them, I certainly have no desire at all to ever attend one... To me it would be like attending a convention of other people who also don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot or Santa Claus... Great and all, but that's not really enough of a defining characteristic to justify getting together and socializing, in my book... For all I know, they may all be assholes who like stuff I hate and vice versa; shared lack of belief in a deity says nothing else about their personalities really... At least with something like a Star Trek convention, you know you have a shared love of sci-fi in common, and something to at least talk about... But, how do you talk about a lack of belief in a deity? "So, I hear you don't believe in gods either? Cool!" Not a very long conversation, really...
 
2013-04-08 12:09:22 PM  
So what!?!?

It's well placed and thoroughly deserved. They're culturally bankrupt. As are all the Abrahamic religions.

Let them all rot.
 
2013-04-08 12:09:36 PM  

Marine1: Rabbitgod: Marine1: Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.

Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.

Again your wrong, religion is not required for sound ethics, nor is it the solsource. People can be good on their own, and living in a society that rewards goodness and punishes cruelty helps that along. Theocratic societies often have laws that punish good acts, and reward evil acts, that happen to be against, or for, the religious doctrine of the land. And the reason otherwise good people go against their gut feelings and allow this is because, insert invisible sky man or the guy that claims to have a direct line to him here, says so.

I didn't say religion alone could guide us. I'm just saying that this stuff that Harris and Dawkins push, where science is the preferable moral source, isn't exactly true. In fact, it's been the exact opposite in some profound incidents.


And your earlier example of forced human experimentation by the Nazi's is proof of this? Hardly, the Nazi hate of Jews and other Non-Christian, or unpopular Christian denominations, such a Jehova Witnesses, was fueled by old Lutheran and Catholic hate of those groups. It was that bigotry that lead to the view of certain groups as subhuman. People that claim to be scientist, but inject their hate, bigotry, or own self interests into the scientific process in order to justify their beliefs are not scientist, they are people in search of an excuse for their actions.
 
2013-04-08 12:11:32 PM  

NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.


Before you claim any of these (many of which predate Egypt and Greece) for the Theists, you are going to have to provide clear and convicing evidence that the one reason any of these things were 'invented" was religion.

p.s. The earliest scientifically confirmed barley beer production was in Iran about 5,500 years ago. The Chinese were producing  alcoholic beverages on a small scale as far back as 9,000 years ago.
 
2013-04-08 12:13:26 PM  

NostroZ: dready zim: There is no god. God does not exist. No I am not agnostic, I am saying for sure that there is no god because the people that claim that there is have provided no proof.

The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant. The claimant is the people who say there IS a god.

No, the ball is still in your court. The piece of dirt you threw over to our side doesn`t fool anybody. The ball is still in your court to prove your god exists.

I do not have to prove anything. The lack of proof from the claimant is all the validation I need to be correct.

Your claim is false when looked at considering all current evidence. Therefore there is no god. This will remain the case until further evidence is turned up at which time we can look again at the facts.
 Your father did not have to prove to you that there is a God.

Your grandfather did not have to prove to you that there is a God.
Your great-great-great-grand-parents did not need to prove to you there is a God.

It's better to believe in a God and be wrong than to not believe and be damned!
This is Pascal's Argument:   Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.


And here we have the crux of his argument: He's afraid.
 
2013-04-08 12:17:32 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: IlGreven: bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.

Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!

/See, I can make excuses for "perceived" horrible behavior, too!
//Lower percentage of atheists in prison than in the free population.
///Higher percentage of Christians in prison than in the free population.


nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God

Some denominations also believe that you must also be baptized which is why I did not include it in the primary list as all denominations must agree on those 4 if they are Christian.


So you try to refute the statement by saying "nope" and then by listing the steps in conversion? Were you perhaps unaware of the meaning of the word conversion as it was used in his statement?

Besides which, your steps do nothing to refute the point of his statement. A serial rapist murderer could follow your steps (earnestly, "with all his heart", since that seems to be some important measurement) and still be forgiven of all his crimes (or sins as some call them) and earn an eternal paradise. While his victim, who for the sake of argument never accepted Jesus (or followed any of your steps), burns in eternal agony for unbelief.

So the murder-rapist not only ultimately gets away with his crimes, but is actively forgiven for all of them and rewarded with eternal bliss, while his victim (whose last moments were of violation, humiliation, pain, and terror) remains unforgiven, and dies only to be punished with eternal violation, humiliation, pain, and terror.

How very just and fair of your god.

But you might argue, "They had a chance for the same forgiveness!" Sure. Sure they did. Right up until they were raped and murdered by your happy new cherub.

Also, as an aside, so who's correct? The denominations that think water baptism is necessary or the ones who don't? What about the multitudes of other denominations that think steps are added or removed from your list? Are they right? What about other religions, are they right?
 
2013-04-08 12:19:33 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: It's irrelevant, actually.


And yet this huge "yuh huh" "nuh uh" dichotomy of either or is the new black.   :  )  Nobody can wax profound better than [nominal group A] and [nominal group A is full of sh*t].  The either or isn't at all irrelevant.  What's irrelevant, apparently, is what we do or do not do about the truth if we do find out without a doubt.  Either way, something within our makeup makes us participants in something  we feel but don't quite understand and we know it's amazingly important.
 
2013-04-08 12:20:43 PM  

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.

My friend.  People in power do not like ANYONE undermining their authority.  This has nothing to do with religion.  It's human greed.

Religion allowed for a hierarchical society that is necessary to achieve great things (like the Pyramids) and farming.  With the Pharaoh being a representative for God, a whole social construct that we use today in business developed.  With farming mathematics was needed to divide the fields following the Nile's annual flooding.  With advanced mathematics the Pharaoh's court was able to predict eclipses and other astral anomalies. With more leisure time as a result of specialization and farming, the Egyptians developed games, like bowling (really, look it up).

The same arc of development can be seen for the Greeks after the develop their mythology.

There will always be bad apples, in religion or not.  But to ascribe all evil to religion ignores the extraordinary good that it does for civilization.


I don't recall saying anything good about people in power.  I will add that religion allows religious people in power to behave in a similar manner, and that they have.

I didn't ascribe all evil to religion, just some of it.

I don't agree that religion is/was necessary for anything that mankind has done.  Religion is, and always has been, a hindrance.
 
2013-04-08 12:21:48 PM  

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.

That's at least difficult to measure.
And some of these groups act in a way which is problematic, to say the least.
And then, there's nothing for comparison, except other religions.

Hey man, did you read above in your own quote what I wrote about comparisons?
The soviet union did not have a religion.  In fact, it was outlawed by the communist party.
The Soviets killed millions of their own (under Stalin).
The same thing occurred under Mao in China with the Great Leap forward.  Millions of Chinese starved to death, as with Stalin.

For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power.  Discuss.


Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?
 
2013-04-08 12:21:58 PM  

miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


twimg0-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-04-08 12:22:02 PM  

xria: rikkards: Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.

The proper answer would be "personal responsibility to society norms".

Also it is hard to see how anyone with a belief in an eternally happy afterlife for good people, and hell for bad people is really "moral" - they are just being selfish on a longer time frame.



I agree with you to a degree, at least.  Anyone who believes that there is a "good" afterlife and a "bad" afterlife ought to feel some kind of concern or distress or pity at the thought that millions or billions of people are doomed to the bad one.  Ideally, this should compel a believer to do everything in their power to help non-believers "understand" the need to convert so they can get the "good" afterlife.

(Let me just use "heaven" as a generic term for any desirable afterlife and "hell" as a generic term for any undesirable afterlife, to save electrons.)

Unfortunately, there are (at least) two problems with how this plays out historically (and today).

First, once you totally buy into the ideas that (A) an hour in hell is infinitely worse than an hour of the worse torture any human can inflict, and (B) it is possible, however unlikely, that you can FORCE a given person into "becoming saved," then the most brutal torture and murder can be justified in terms of "saving someone's soul" (i.e., ensuring that they will go to heaven when they die).  All of the worst atrocities done in the name of Christianity (the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem witch trials, etc) all of it can be justified given those two assumptions as absolutes.  And such atrocities could happen again in any society that accepts such premises as unquestionably true.

Second, if you believe that the "divine judge" (God, or whoever or whatever determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell when they die) is infallible, you start to believe that some people DESERVE heaven and others DESERVE hell.  From there, you start to think that the "unsaved" people not only deserve to go to hell when they die, but they don't really deserve all that much respect here on Earth, either.

It's funny how often this happens with Christians, especially how many different passages in the Bible specifically admonish Christians NOT to do that.  ("Judge not, lest ye be judged," "Before you pluck the splinter from your brother's eye," "For all have sinned," etc.)

You call it being "selfish."  I call it "human nature."
 
2013-04-08 12:23:32 PM  

miss diminutive: Gunther: Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

And if so, what shape is his hat?


Tricorn.
 
2013-04-08 12:24:17 PM  

Biological Ali: Well, when people say things like "Christianity today is better off than Islam", they're really only talking about Christianity in North America and Europe (and to some extent South America). Christianity in Africa (places like Uganda etc.) is pretty much on par with any stereotypically bad picture of Islam in the Middle East.


So there is death penalty for apostacy in Uganda?

Or do you mean they are "on par" on the issue of gays, even though the law that included death penalty was never passed, yet is the law in many muslim coutnries?
 
2013-04-08 12:24:20 PM  

NostroZ: Inflatable Rhetoric: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Really? You haven't heard about the Inquisition?

That was against the Jews and Muslims... nothing to see here.

Business as usual in Europe... move along citizen.

/In Capitalism this phenomenon was called McCarthyism... a witch-hunt by the fanatical against their perceived moral enemies.
//Lets not pretend that religion has anything to do with people in power oppressing a minority group they deem dangerous.
///Look up Eugene V. Debs and that he was sentenced to prison for saying that he supported the anti-war movement in WW2.


And?  We can have evil people and events with or without a religious base.
 
2013-04-08 12:29:19 PM  

dfxdeimos: When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for leaving Islam should be death - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for adultery should be stoning - that is a problem.
When hundreds of millions Muslims believe that the punishment for theft or robbery should involve whippings or cutting off the hands of the accused - that is a problem.

And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

But I am sure that you would find a similar number of Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus that would say the same thing, right? Get farking real.



Read Leviticus sometime.   The Christian Bible also mandates that homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned to death, and any women who isn't a vigrin on her wedding night, and a long list of other criminals..  I'm not sure why you think Islam is necessarily worse than any other Abrahamic religion.
 
2013-04-08 12:30:40 PM  

liam76: So there is death penalty for apostacy in Uganda?

Or do you mean they are "on par" on the issue of gays, even though the law that included death penalty was never passed, yet is the law in many muslim coutnries?


Would you say that a lynching is about on par with an execution?
 
2013-04-08 12:33:01 PM  

The Snow Dog: If you were an atheist born in Cairo or Calcutta or Peking your statement would probably not hold true.


Atheist babies?
 
2013-04-08 12:34:09 PM  

give me doughnuts: This is Pascal's Argument: Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss.

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you sir, as you are asking others to possibly damn their eternal soul.

And here we have the crux of his argument: He's afraid.


All creatures are afraid of death, this is a basic survival instinct.  Are you telling me you are not?

Are you also telling me you know for certain what will happen when you die?

Therefore, as Pascal's Argument goes, you are asking for me to NOT believe in something that has a much greater loss in not believing.  Versus following the tradition of my grand-parents and passing down a rich culture.  A belief in something greater than oneself.

/Not that it matters... but I do not believe in a hell as you might know it.
//My religion's hell is to be so far separated from God that you are in a void, yet there is still hope of redemption.
 
2013-04-08 12:34:18 PM  

liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.



So .... that's like the atheist version of "Love the sinner, hate the sin"?

And when right-wing Christians say they condemn homosexuality but don't hate gay people, you're fine with that?
 
2013-04-08 12:37:39 PM  

Biological Ali: Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: The Envoy: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?

Religion works in that it gives purpose to life outside of eating, sleeping, and farking.

Look at the two most religious and elaborate civilizations of the ancient world.  The Egyptians and Greeks.

Ask yourself, what did these two polytheistic civilizations with a rich spiritual world give to civilization?

Mathematics. Astronomy. Logic. Farming. Dentistry. Sanitation. Preservation techniques. Architecture that stands to this day.
dishonor your mother/father now at days... but how about building something better before tearing down what has worked.

I fail to see how religion contributed, or contributes, to Math, Astronomy, etc.  I do recall Giordano Bruno being burned alive by religious leaders for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.

You're being trolled. Hard.


I just got an email from the AFA, says the FCC is dropping the ban on "the f-word" and nudity in broadcast radio and TV.  About time.
 
2013-04-08 12:38:12 PM  

lenfromak: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

No, that would mean having an irrational fear of religion, or an irrational fear of islam. As an atheist, I simply think islam is as make-believe as all the others.


You might not be aware of this, but the "-phobe" suffix can mean "person who hates X" as well as "person who is afraid of X."  When you call someone a homophobe, for example, you're saying that they hate homosexuality, not that they're necessarily afraid of it.  Though it's certainly possible a given homophobe could be either.
 
2013-04-08 12:39:46 PM  

Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?


Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.
 
2013-04-08 12:41:50 PM  
This argument is stupid. The world is split into theists and atheists. Theists are made up of all the different distinct religions and all of their denominations. Atheists are also made up of many different groups and lifestyles... and you can't broad brush them as hate mongers any more than you can do that with all theists.

However, you can distinguish at least 2 groups of atheists easily: the benign atheists and the anti-theists. The hateful ones are the equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church, and they do not represent all atheists, they are just the noisy ones who need attention like the Christian hate mongers in the news every day. Even taking the different levels of anti-theism within the Atheist community, I don't believe that any atheist really hates Islam more than any other religion.
 
2013-04-08 12:43:10 PM  

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.


Yea, MAN has created terrible diseases, such as malaria, polio, the plague, ebola, diphtheria, etc, etc.  A MERCIFUL GOD would never do that.  Right?
 
2013-04-08 12:45:41 PM  

Surool: However, you can distinguish at least 2 groups of atheists easily: the benign atheists and the anti-theists. The hateful ones are the equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church, and they do not represent all atheists, they are just the noisy ones who need attention like the Christian hate mongers in the news every day.


The only way you could make a comment like that with a straight face is if you didn't actually know very much about the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
2013-04-08 12:47:55 PM  

NostroZ: All creatures are afraid of death, this is a basic survival instinct. Are you telling me you are not?

Are you also telling me you know for certain what will happen when you die?



Of course I am. All creatures complex enough to know fear, fear death.

As for what happens after death, I don't have a clue. No one does. But what I do know is that nothing I do in life will have any effect on whether or not there is any "afterlife", or what form it will take.

As for the rest of your post, and pretty much everything you have posted in this thred, let me quote the eminent philosopher Mr. T: That's just a bunch of jibber-jabber.
 
2013-04-08 12:49:58 PM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: Yea, MAN has created terrible diseases, such as malaria, polio, the plague, ebola, diphtheria, etc, etc. A MERCIFUL GOD would never do that. Right?


I fear that stylistic rhetoric has obfuscated this discussion.

When I said history has shown us that MAN is less MERCIFUL than GOD, I meant the rule of men without religion versus rule with religion.  As with the case of atheist governments as was the case with USSR and China.  To some degree, the Mongols did not have a religion either, they were tolerant of their conquered people's religion... yet, what do you know about the Mongols... Ghangis Khan, a leader who's policy of conquest was complete and utter destruction.

My point is that religion tempers the human heart and keeps it from doing greater evil.
 
2013-04-08 12:50:04 PM  

Sid_6.7: I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with Islam. Overall, I think it's a really neat thing, but not for me. I do have a problem with anyone claiming I should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs. Or, rather, it would be more accurate to say that if someone takes steps to try and force me to follow their religious beliefs, then I have a problem.

Infernalist: doglover: What's the fancy word for people who like cilantro?

Douchebag?

Please, explain, how liking the taste of an herb makes someone a douchebag? I could say the same about people classifying others based upon their enjoyment of a single plant.

/potheads, for example


Geez dude! are you off your meds? Do you even see the GIANT irony in your post? You have no problem with Islam but you do have a problem with people that says  you should live my life a certain way due to their religious beliefs?

WTF do you think Islam is?

...... and yes I was thinking religious people were a confuse bunch.. LOL
 
2013-04-08 12:51:31 PM  

vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but in my experience protestant Christians are the worst Islam/Catholic-phobes evar.  They just do their bigoted speeches on Sunday morning within the walls of their church.



I have several family members who are Protestant.   Some might even be called fundamentalist.  It's interesting when they talk about Islam because my internal voice, the one that would get me in trouble if I allowed it access to my mouth, keeps noting how similar their arguments against Islam are to the arguments my atheist friends make against Christianity.

You could pretty much just swap "Jesus" for "Mohammad," "Christianity" for "Islam," et cetera, and they'd be almost identical, word-for-word.

I was reminded of something I read in one of the New Atheist books (can't recall who it was, maybe Dawkins, maybe Hitchens): "The crucial difference between Christians and atheists is that Christians disbelieve N-1 religions, while atheists disbelieve N religions."  I'm probably mangling the quote, but it went something like that.
 
2013-04-08 12:51:48 PM  

NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker in the human condition.  EGO
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Man.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.


Watching to see how he get's to double-talk himself out of this one.

The foot must be delicious.
 
2013-04-08 12:52:41 PM  

vactech: I could have swore the proper narrative was "Atheists liberals always give Islam (or any other religion) a free pass, and only pick on Christians"


That claim has been made many times in Fark threads.  I'm not sure how true it is outside of Fark, though.
 
2013-04-08 12:53:11 PM  
NostroZ: Rabbitgod: For some reason, you don't see this MASS MURDER of their OWN PEOPLE by a more religious government.
There's your comparison with Atheists in power. Discuss.

Did you ever stop to consider, that to the true fanatic who suspended logic, reason, and basic human morality, to prop up communism, viewed communism as their religion, the Kremlin as their church, and Lenin, Stalin and, Mao as their deities and saints? Or that the so called Atheists who ran these regimens thought of themselves as Gods among men?

Thank you my inquisitive friend!

This is precisely what I have been trying to articulate.
Atheism undermines a VERY needed circuit breaker unneeded drain on the human condition. 
In these Atheist institutions the human condition was still alive and well... and the human condition is TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING... if that something is no longer God, then it becomes Humanity, and the species finally starts getting its collective shiat together.

That man is the 'cult of personality' that often takes place when people look towards MAN instead of GOD for life's answers.
Therefore, my argument that religion does more good than harm is reinforced by the examples of China/USSR where when religion was forcefully removed, a cult of personality took over and people looked towards a MAN for morality.  And as history has showed us MAN is not as MERCIFUL as GOD.
  More jibber-jabber
 
2013-04-08 12:56:02 PM  

give me doughnuts: what I do know is that nothing I do in life will have any effect on whether or not there is any "afterlife", or what form it will take.


I am envious of your certainty.

I have a hard time believing that billions of people on this planet are wrong and I am right.  Since every religion is based on a soul that is affected by this life's events, you are in a VERY minority view.  But I respect your life's choice and hopefully when the day comes to both of us, then we will know who is RIGHT for sure.

I'd rather hedge my bets and be a good person, as proscribed by all the faiths of the world.

If I may ask a hypothetical questions then...
You come upon a burning building and there is a young girl trapped inside.  You are the only one around who can help.  Do you help the girl inside and why?
 
2013-04-08 12:57:22 PM  

Uncle Tractor: HindiDiscoMonster: Seriously, I agree.... I just love it when Jesus said "verily I say unto thee, if thy neighbor sucks, thou shalt kill him" or when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone... that's right biatches that is me..." then whacked that ho... or better, when he said "Turn the other cheek, cause i'm gonna pimp slap that one too!" Classic... oh wait, I mean the opposite of that,

How about when Jesus said that apostates were to be burned on the fire? Does that count?

[i560.photobucket.com image 512x668]



Are you saying that because you think some Farkers are stupid enough to believe the Jesus is actually advocating burning people in that passage, or because you're stupid enough to believe that?
 
2013-04-08 12:58:26 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Science is still entirely passive, it makes no demands or prescriptions for violence.


So when certain scientists call on governments to impose taxes, mandates, and controls to reduce CO2 emissions, that's not science. I bring this up because too many people say things like, "Science says we need carbon taxes, etc."
 
2013-04-08 12:58:43 PM  

IlGreven: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

It usually goes like this:

Atheist says something critical against Christianity.
Christians say "Well, you don't have the guts to say those things against the ebil Muslims."
Atheist then says something critical against Islam.
Christians say "ZOMG ISLAMOPHOBE!"


It mostly goes that way when you stop taking your meds.
 
2013-04-08 01:00:44 PM  

IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.



Yes, indeed, the biggest problem with atheism is that it's TOO feminist.

You really ARE off your meds.
 
2013-04-08 01:00:50 PM  

Lorelle: doglover: So much fail. 10/10 perfect troll.

For once, I'm NOT trolling. Really, I swear. Horseradish sucks.

/needs to buy some more cilantro
//has cravings for cilantro-lime rice


Cilantro-lime rice sounds like the best rice ever.
 
2013-04-08 01:01:20 PM  

Scythed: Atheism isillegal in most of the Muslim world. Apostasy is punishable by imprisonment or death. The Quran and Hadith support this.

Asking why Atheists are Islamophobic is like asking why Jews are Naziphobic.


and yet here we are 500 + post later arguing why a certain author is a douche for clinging to true atheistic beliefs.. apparently even atheists are willing to forgo their most fundamental 'beliefs' for the sake of political correctness these daysl.

Why would YOU want to be tolerant of a group of folks whose core beliefs are that you and your like minded folks are subhuman and should be put to death in the most horrific of ways?
 
2013-04-08 01:04:30 PM  
To chime in...

I don't give two farks what they want to believe, although in the end I think it'll come down to their values vs. western values, and personally, I subscribe to western values.

So if it came down to it, fark them
 
2013-04-08 01:05:55 PM  

PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...


The Dalai Lama agrees with you.
 
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