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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 678
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14319 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 10:07:51 AM

The Larch: tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.


Ain't you just a ray of glittering light from above.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:00 AM
"Saying inflammatory things about Islam isn't out of character for the New Atheists, since they're the kind of people who ask whether religion is the root of all evil and seriously debate the existence of God with believers. They say nasty things about Christians all the time, and, in fairness to them, countries that are governed by Islamic law have done horrible things (as have Christian nations and, it turns out, Buddhist countries too)."

Which of these religions is still forcing its adherents to do these horrible things?

/if you tell me which god, is not like the others
//then I'll call you Islamophobe
 
2013-04-08 10:08:01 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.


I'm sure it's not what you believe, but it IS what some sects of Christianity believe. The most basic is: believe in Jesus go to heaven. Many other sects tack on additional shiat (Catholics have more than a few additional rules, and I use them b/c I was raised Catholic and know it reeeeally well. ;)). Each sect believes their way is 'The One True Way' and uses various methods to demonstrate that their way is 'The One True Way'. Though as some faiths have modernized some have acknowledged there might be more than One True Way...but theirs remains the best and most ideal and TRUEST...of course. ;)

Point being, there's apparently lot of true ways, and one of 'em is just accept jesus go to heaven.

And check out Chick.com if your stomach can handle it. Fortunately Jack Chick (and his comics) doesn't represent any majority of Christianity.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:20 AM
The author's attempts at empathy are weak and unconvincing.  He disproves his own contentions.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:43 AM

PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.


Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.
 
2013-04-08 10:09:27 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.


Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.
 
2013-04-08 10:10:10 AM

Skeptigal: It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...


or not pray outside?
 
2013-04-08 10:10:28 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Bingo.

I grew up with an atheist Dad and a Catholic Mom.  I got pretty involved in church volunteering and youth leadership stuff, and never once did my Dad try to convince me that it was all BS.  He just let me figure out my own way and made sure I had access to a ridiculous number of books at all times.  And now I'm an agnostic humanist, for lack of a better term, which is cool with me.

There are assholes in every sub-grouping of humanity.  Just kind of how it goes.
 
2013-04-08 10:13:05 AM

liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.


I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting
 
2013-04-08 10:13:13 AM
What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide. You don't need God to be a good person, but you do need some way of differentiating good acts from bad, virtue from evil.

Here you go:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 10:13:23 AM
FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?
 
2013-04-08 10:15:14 AM

Divinegrace: I have meet tens of thousands of people so far, of those about a half a dozen times I have meet someone and was "Wowed" by their spite / hate / self-centered nature...not just a little bit spite/hateful, but WOW level. While I will not list the names of the people who were THAT gawd awful, I could if I had to...each and every one of them.

So I would say the percentage of people I have meet that were excessively spiteful / hateful / self-centered...so much so that I took the time to ask about their 'Faith" would be less than one half of one percent....of that less than one half of one percent, 100% were agnostic or atheist. I hope that clears things up.


Well, it clears things up but not in the way I think you hoped it did.  What you've actually admitted is that you have no idea how many of the remaining 99.995% of people who you thought didn't have a "spiteful/hateful/self-centred nature" were actually atheists.  This simply demonstrates that you've assumed that they're not atheists and that therefore you assume christians are somehow "better".  Taking this in to account, how then do we know that your opinion of that allegedly dastardly half dozen is not in any way coloured by your own obvious prejudices?  We don't and nor can we lend further statements from you much credence, coming as they do from somebody who is so obviously prejudiced.
 
2013-04-08 10:18:07 AM
The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:18:14 AM

Gunther: IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

Oh man, PZ Myers; there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember adding him to my RSS feed a decade ago when he mostly wrote about biology and evolution. I unsubscribed a few years ago when his posts started being mostly about how everyone who wasn't his precise sub-type of atheism was crazy/stupid/evil. What's happened to him?


Reminded me of this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
http://skepsheik.blogspot.se/2012/09/congratulations-to-pz-myers.htm l
 
2013-04-08 10:18:35 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


And, I've never heard that the Tooth Fairy burned anyone alive for their beliefs.
 
2013-04-08 10:19:53 AM
Of course there are all degrees of Muslims, but if we're honest with ourselves, the spectrum doesn't run parallel alongside Christianity. The percentage of Christians who don't believe in contraception is something like 10%. Both the severity and prevalence of horrendous Islamic beliefs is much higher. When we talk about Islam, we're not just talking about "You shouldn't use condoms." Many Muslims believe women should be locked in their homes with no access to any situation that could possibly cause them to be exposed to any male other than their husband, and a clear majority of them at least believe that women should not be educated, and should be murdered if they ever decide that they don't want to be Muslims anymore.

Hours and hours of interviews exist such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2x32tG6-F0

If people like the man in this video were rare extremists, their views would not be dominating and setting the tone of culture in all Muslim countries (except possibly Turkey and Malaysia.) Christians who hate birth control aren't able to prevent it from being sold because they are fringe extremists. This man represents the median of culture in the Middle East.

Here is an article summarizing Pew Research data among worldwide Muslims:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41425/pew-report-13-of-us-muslims-sup po rt-al-qaeda-60-say-911-attacks-not-done-by-muslims-arabs-13-say-being- muslim-conflicts-w-modern-society-25-came-to-us-under-bush/

Approximately 1 out of 3 Muslims in the world supports Al Qaeda and thinks that suicide bombings are a justifiable sociopolitical tool for spreading and preserving the influence of Islam. The raw numbers can be found here: http://www.pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=19&survey=1&response=Oft e n/sometimes%20justified&mode=chart

These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

It's no secret that I am a critic of all religion, and I frequently go up against the regressive influence that Christianity has on American culture, but when it comes to dread destructive forces in the 21st century, there can be no doubt that Islam is public enemy number one.

And I will preempt anyone who might call me a bigot by insisting that there is no such thing as bigotry against an idea or set of ideas. I am not a racist, and I have no quarrel with people of Arabic descent, so long as they are not Muslims. Saying that I don't like Muslims is no different than someone saying that they don't like Republicans.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:15 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


www.critiques4geeks.com

While I have no innate disagreement with this broad scope admonition as a suitable basis for societal management, I can't hep but ponder as to the impetus of what we presently, as a culture, define as such.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:32 AM

cman: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry


It's not bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:04 AM
Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:27 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.


"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:21:39 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs?


The Middle East is (and was) far more complex than that. Arabs had a much more limited geographical/cultural range 2,000-3,000 years ago.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:48 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.


Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:00 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


I thought the priests stopped doing that when the kid hits puberty.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:46 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...


If Jesus was a skinny white guy in that part of the world in that era, let alone pale and sickly looking - as he was a carpenter, well before steel hammers, table saws and Makitas - the population would have nailed him up just for being weird looking, a la "Powder."
 
2013-04-08 10:26:15 AM

mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]


False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:21 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting


I never said "in and of itself".  Dearborn is heavily influenced by Amrican values, as it is in America.  There are very strict limits on what peopel can force others to do that you don't see in Islamic societies.

Once again a lot of complaints about nuance and myopic vision when you are making up arguments to attribute to me.

/Sarah Said, Jessica Mokdad, etc probably coudl say a few things about harmful societal norms if they were still alive.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:38 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:59 AM

give me doughnuts: Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.


Telling the truth about anything, while being disliked, earns one a phobia suffix.
 
2013-04-08 10:27:01 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular) usually "replace" religious dogma with "science" and "reason" as a way to justify treating people like crap. They don't do it because "God said so", they do it because someone else provided them a justification.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:14 AM
This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.


DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:48 AM

Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.


Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.
 
2013-04-08 10:32:56 AM

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.
 
2013-04-08 10:33:31 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?

I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.


I have often said we are all agnostics, whether we want to be or not. However, Agnosticism isn't about false dichotomies so much as it's about epistemology. Either there is an engineer ruling reality or not. It really is a dichotomy. Even if the engineer is the Universe itself, either it is conscious and makes decisions, like a god, or it's a machine, like nature. Can we know the truth? It's irrelevant, actually.
 
2013-04-08 10:34:30 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

More importantly...can you refute it?
 
2013-04-08 10:37:10 AM

Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)


Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.
 
2013-04-08 10:38:32 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?


Cultural critical mass.  There aren't enough of them to override the protections the state and federal constitutions afford to non-believers.

We've seen the small-town effect on non-believers in NY state though, with Orthodox Jews in the majority.
 
2013-04-08 10:39:48 AM
Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).
 
2013-04-08 10:42:35 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


Is it?  Serious question:  if the North Koreans believe and, more importantly, ACT like Lil Kim is a god, how is that atheist?
How is that distinguishable from every other religion?

Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...
 
2013-04-08 10:42:40 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


I think you're confusing Best Korea with the Soviet Union. The Soviets carried out quite a few atrocities (including anti-religious campaigns) under quite a few leaders... even after De-Stalinization.
 
2013-04-08 10:43:06 AM

Marine1: Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


Well, you have to take in consideration, before religion existed, it was peace/heaven on earth, wasn't it?  Then a book fell from the sky and BAM... nothing but wars.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:43:25 AM

NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


A parking lot?
 
2013-04-08 10:44:22 AM

Marine1: imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.

Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


I would agree...extremists of any stripe are potentially dangerous.
 
2013-04-08 10:44:28 AM

PunGent: Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...


I'm willing to bet that most atheist pray to the porcelain God on a regular basis.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:46:21 AM

vactech: NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

A parking lot?


It's a cookie!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:23 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


I'm extremely high, but I'll take a stab. You see, I believe this is it. Our ONLY shot, our only moment of existence. The only time when the things that make me...me ...come together to observe this remarkable universe. Star Stuff, 100%

As such, it's precious. Sacred, if you will...as the term does not have to be religious. People matter. Now matters. It's not about being utterly hedonistic. I could be. I'm a sex worker and a Dominatrix. I could live a *purely* hedonistic life the such of which I assure you...you cannot begin to imagine. Why would that make me happy? Or fulfilled? I DON'T live such a life, because it doesn't hold any real appeal for me. Your favorite food starts to pale if you eat it every damned day.

All of the concepts and ideals and 'morality' you ascribe to religion you accredit wrongly. They come from HUMANS. We have human morals, human ideals. Some of these evolve over time. farking children in ancient societies...wasn't seen as too bad. We do not think this today. Why? Where did this specific empathy develop? Advancement of knowledge. Steven Pinker addresses the decline of violence and why better than I could in his latest book. (Hint hint).

I live by my own rules and own ideals, but so does everyone. You may choose to model yours off a specific concept. Many of the things we adopt for ourselves are ideas and concepts we've come across expressed by others. But it boils down best for me in: Don't harm other people unnecessarily. Concept I got from Heinlein. People are not things. Granny Weatherwax.

We have innate behaviors that we intellectualize our morality around. Specifically it's very unlikely you'd be farking your parents, or your children...except that god said you couldn't. You likely find even the mention of the concept vile and disgusting. Yet some religious moralists claim that's NOT the case because incest porn is quite popular. But it's not popular because people WANT to fark their relatives, but because it's taboo. What is dangerous and forbidden...can be exciting. Stimulating. Provided you don't go too nuts with it. The people who enjoy it are rarely putting themselves in the porn, but are stimulated by observation.

We can observe many aspects of what we believe to be 'human' morality in our closest relations, apes and monkeys. And these things exist because they've been beneficial. So we deem them 'good'. No need to wrap mystical myths and magic around it.

When I die, I'm dead and gone. I don't always make the most of every moment...I'm human, and am not always mindful of the value of what little time I have in existence. And I'm far from perfect, I've got a temper. ;) But I'm a very ethical and honorable person. I've no trouble looking at who I see in the mirror.

And gosh darn it, people like me!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:53 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


The fact that you say "atheist LEADERS" indicates you've got a lot to learn about atheism.

Most of them don't have organized Sunday services, you know :)
 
2013-04-08 10:49:25 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.
 
2013-04-08 10:49:33 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.

You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.


Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well".  Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion
 
2013-04-08 10:50:44 AM

BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.


I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?
 
2013-04-08 10:52:56 AM

bunner: So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.


Yes, but even after we crack the encryption, some religious guy will say "original sin warped the code, THAT'S not the REAL truth"...

And, in a further wrinkle, if some large percent of us DON'T say that...will we still be human?
 
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