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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 724
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14315 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 10:21:04 AM
Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:27 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: nope... read my post to the Lady.


"Believeth on" = "Does what I say to do", not "Believes in me, specifically"

The story of the goats and the sheep makes it clear that there will be MANY non-Christians in heaven, and MANY MORE "christians" in hell.

Putting additional hoops to salvation is one of the most damnable sins.
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:21:39 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs?


The Middle East is (and was) far more complex than that. Arabs had a much more limited geographical/cultural range 2,000-3,000 years ago.
 
2013-04-08 10:21:48 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.


Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:00 AM

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


I thought the priests stopped doing that when the kid hits puberty.
 
2013-04-08 10:22:46 AM

Bullseyed: The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...


If Jesus was a skinny white guy in that part of the world in that era, let alone pale and sickly looking - as he was a carpenter, well before steel hammers, table saws and Makitas - the population would have nailed him up just for being weird looking, a la "Powder."
 
2013-04-08 10:26:15 AM

mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]


False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:21 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting


I never said "in and of itself".  Dearborn is heavily influenced by Amrican values, as it is in America.  There are very strict limits on what peopel can force others to do that you don't see in Islamic societies.

Once again a lot of complaints about nuance and myopic vision when you are making up arguments to attribute to me.

/Sarah Said, Jessica Mokdad, etc probably coudl say a few things about harmful societal norms if they were still alive.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:38 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.
 
2013-04-08 10:26:59 AM

give me doughnuts: Well, since telling the truth about Islam is considered to be "Islamophobia", then the label is pretty accurate.


Telling the truth about anything, while being disliked, earns one a phobia suffix.
 
2013-04-08 10:27:01 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular) usually "replace" religious dogma with "science" and "reason" as a way to justify treating people like crap. They don't do it because "God said so", they do it because someone else provided them a justification.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:14 AM
This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.


DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.
 
2013-04-08 10:30:48 AM

Rabbitgod: mekki: TommyymmoT: [hpd.de image 280x210]

I am sorry, what was that you said about science being a passive kitten? I couldn't hear you over this atomic bomb that science has developed.

[www.comediva.com image 443x480]

False equivalence, their is nothing in science that commands humanity to act cruelly to one another. On the other hand religion often demands that we do.


Which is why science requires ethics. Otherwise, you get the Nazi experiments on Jewish and Gypsy prisoners. Actually, those experiments are the only reason we know things like the maximum altitude that the human body can endure.

There's a big difference between science and humane science.
 
2013-04-08 10:32:56 AM

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.
 
2013-04-08 10:33:31 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?

I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.


I have often said we are all agnostics, whether we want to be or not. However, Agnosticism isn't about false dichotomies so much as it's about epistemology. Either there is an engineer ruling reality or not. It really is a dichotomy. Even if the engineer is the Universe itself, either it is conscious and makes decisions, like a god, or it's a machine, like nature. Can we know the truth? It's irrelevant, actually.
 
2013-04-08 10:34:30 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Believers in any and all gods, including Unitarians.  ( I have Unitarians in my family tree and circle of friends, btw)

It's Dawkins' point, not mine; have you read his work?

More importantly...can you refute it?
 
2013-04-08 10:37:10 AM

Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)


Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.
 
2013-04-08 10:38:32 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?


Cultural critical mass.  There aren't enough of them to override the protections the state and federal constitutions afford to non-believers.

We've seen the small-town effect on non-believers in NY state though, with Orthodox Jews in the majority.
 
2013-04-08 10:39:48 AM
Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).
 
2013-04-08 10:42:35 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


Is it?  Serious question:  if the North Koreans believe and, more importantly, ACT like Lil Kim is a god, how is that atheist?
How is that distinguishable from every other religion?

Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...
 
2013-04-08 10:42:40 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Marine1: Atheist "institutions" (the Soviet Union in particular)

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.


I think you're confusing Best Korea with the Soviet Union. The Soviets carried out quite a few atrocities (including anti-religious campaigns) under quite a few leaders... even after De-Stalinization.
 
2013-04-08 10:43:06 AM

Marine1: Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


Well, you have to take in consideration, before religion existed, it was peace/heaven on earth, wasn't it?  Then a book fell from the sky and BAM... nothing but wars.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:43:25 AM

NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


A parking lot?
 
2013-04-08 10:44:22 AM

Marine1: imfallen_angel: PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.

Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.

Ta-da.

Remove religion, and humans will find some other reason to be douchebags to others. The USSR, Nazi Germany (not an atheist country but the hatred was based on the pseudoscience of racial theory), Democratic Kampuchea, the list goes on.

I see the "New Atheist" movement to be as potentially dangerous as any radical movement. Sure, Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, et. al. haven't killed anyone yet, but then again, neither did the "racial theorists" of the 19th century. It's a hard-line stance that says a wide group cannot be tolerated. That always leads to trouble.


I would agree...extremists of any stripe are potentially dangerous.
 
2013-04-08 10:44:28 AM

PunGent: Besides the fact that their "god" DOES exist...


I'm willing to bet that most atheist pray to the porcelain God on a regular basis.

:-p
 
2013-04-08 10:46:21 AM

vactech: NostroZ: if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

A parking lot?


It's a cookie!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:23 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


I'm extremely high, but I'll take a stab. You see, I believe this is it. Our ONLY shot, our only moment of existence. The only time when the things that make me...me ...come together to observe this remarkable universe. Star Stuff, 100%

As such, it's precious. Sacred, if you will...as the term does not have to be religious. People matter. Now matters. It's not about being utterly hedonistic. I could be. I'm a sex worker and a Dominatrix. I could live a *purely* hedonistic life the such of which I assure you...you cannot begin to imagine. Why would that make me happy? Or fulfilled? I DON'T live such a life, because it doesn't hold any real appeal for me. Your favorite food starts to pale if you eat it every damned day.

All of the concepts and ideals and 'morality' you ascribe to religion you accredit wrongly. They come from HUMANS. We have human morals, human ideals. Some of these evolve over time. farking children in ancient societies...wasn't seen as too bad. We do not think this today. Why? Where did this specific empathy develop? Advancement of knowledge. Steven Pinker addresses the decline of violence and why better than I could in his latest book. (Hint hint).

I live by my own rules and own ideals, but so does everyone. You may choose to model yours off a specific concept. Many of the things we adopt for ourselves are ideas and concepts we've come across expressed by others. But it boils down best for me in: Don't harm other people unnecessarily. Concept I got from Heinlein. People are not things. Granny Weatherwax.

We have innate behaviors that we intellectualize our morality around. Specifically it's very unlikely you'd be farking your parents, or your children...except that god said you couldn't. You likely find even the mention of the concept vile and disgusting. Yet some religious moralists claim that's NOT the case because incest porn is quite popular. But it's not popular because people WANT to fark their relatives, but because it's taboo. What is dangerous and forbidden...can be exciting. Stimulating. Provided you don't go too nuts with it. The people who enjoy it are rarely putting themselves in the porn, but are stimulated by observation.

We can observe many aspects of what we believe to be 'human' morality in our closest relations, apes and monkeys. And these things exist because they've been beneficial. So we deem them 'good'. No need to wrap mystical myths and magic around it.

When I die, I'm dead and gone. I don't always make the most of every moment...I'm human, and am not always mindful of the value of what little time I have in existence. And I'm far from perfect, I've got a temper. ;) But I'm a very ethical and honorable person. I've no trouble looking at who I see in the mirror.

And gosh darn it, people like me!
 
2013-04-08 10:46:53 AM

NostroZ: orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?

That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS...  if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe?  What good do Atheists create?  We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.


The fact that you say "atheist LEADERS" indicates you've got a lot to learn about atheism.

Most of them don't have organized Sunday services, you know :)
 
2013-04-08 10:49:25 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.


Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.
 
2013-04-08 10:49:33 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

This article clearly shows that HATRED is what is being bred by the Atheist leaders like Dawkins & Harris.

Since Atheists go out of their way to stick it to believers about how RELIGION is the root of evil/hate, then how does the above Jibe? What good do Atheists create? We already know what they destroy... but this is a VERY REAL QUESTION.

You're an idiot as well.

My Dad has created a hell of a lot of awesome things, but I'd say the most important by far was teaching - through example - my brother and I the importance of education and looking at everything critically but while also being empathetic.


Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well".  Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion
 
2013-04-08 10:50:44 AM

BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.


I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?
 
2013-04-08 10:52:56 AM

bunner: So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.


Yes, but even after we crack the encryption, some religious guy will say "original sin warped the code, THAT'S not the REAL truth"...

And, in a further wrinkle, if some large percent of us DON'T say that...will we still be human?
 
2013-04-08 10:54:42 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: This is one f--king depressing thread.

Maybe most of you will grow up and get your heads out of your asses.  Here's hoping.

Tommy Moo: These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

DR GEORGE TILLER, YOU DOLT.  2009.  In his church. F--k.


Ok, I forgot about him. My point stands. A single incident does not compare to millions of people cheering for terrorism and giving moral support and encouragement to suicide bombers and other jihadists.
 
2013-04-08 10:54:56 AM

NostroZ: Obviously your dad taught you impeccable manners in articulating your point of view.

Certainly you have done a wonderful job of showing me that Atheists BUILD MORE THAN HATE (philosophically) by showing your empathy with the leading line of "You're an idiot as well". Sure sounds like you're building a better world everyday with such an attitude.

/I rest my case
//Atheists breed hate more than religion


What the hell kind of pansy-ass trolling is this? At least throw in a "Atheism is a religion", or a non-sequitur about Stalin, or something - this weaksauce you've got going right now just isn't going to cut it.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:37 AM

Voiceofreason01: Lady Indica:
If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

The evidence does not bear out this idea. People have been murdered because they don't follow the right sports team, because they're the wrong sex or orientation(absent direct religious influence) or because they live on the wrong side of an imaginary line. The reason that religion seems like a special case is because it's so ubiquitous(almost everyone for almost all of history has had some sort of religious affiliation) and since religion is so universal you can always point to someone and say "they must have done it because they're xtian" even though they might not practice their faith. There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.
 
2013-04-08 10:56:46 AM

Voiceofreason01: There is no statistical evidence that religion has any effect on how moral a person is(one way or the other).


No kidding, I've seen jerks everywhere in my life, regardless of their beliefs.

They all share a few things... one was that they always believed themselves "right" and justified, or just didn't care as it was their way or you were their enemy, and another thing was that they were jerks.

The whole ego thing that humans have is quite powerful.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:31 AM

Biological Ali: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.
 
2013-04-08 10:58:51 AM

NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?


As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.
 
2013-04-08 11:03:06 AM
For the record, I'm "against" all religion, not just Islam.  If you keep it in your bedroom, I could care less, it's when you whip it out in public that we will have problems.

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i14.photobucket.com

i14.photobucket.com
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2013-04-08 11:05:15 AM

Biological Ali: I see. And what if a person hated certain political or economic ideas? Would that be "bigotry" as well?


There's a difference between tolerance and unacceptable behavior.  Sadly, people tend to adapt some point of view that can make something that for many is unacceptable, but for them, it's "normal".

Such a woman's treatment in some countries.  But the reality, without religion, in your very own country, some men would still/are still abusive toward women and only "fell remorse" if they go to jail for it.  No jail, they'd continue, and many return to their ways after being released.

How's racism going in the world? Do people keep their prejudice, do some act on purpose to feed it?

Do some people of a race cling to being part of their "culture", and claim intolerance when someone doesn't agree with their practices?

In my life, I've seen "minorities" be more racist, use it as a card, than others would care about race altogether.

I've seen jerks (major ones) claim "racism" because they were being jerks and told to stop.

Not really any difference in the essence of the topic.
 
2013-04-08 11:05:38 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.

Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.

Thinking about it, I think Dawkins goes further, and even condemns non-believers who participate in organized religious activity, or even just put up with it.  Been awhile since I've read any of his stuff, though.


I've never quite understood that. Then again, I pride myself on not identifying with Dawkins' opinions on quite a few things.

A shame, really. Guy has some valid points on evolution.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:06 AM

vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.


You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.
 
2013-04-08 11:06:39 AM
s2s2s2:
Unless you use the less often accepted, but far more accurate, definition of religion that covers sports fanatics and atheist crusaders.

so religion is any group or organization or person or ideology that you disagree with or don't like?

/your definitions are all askew but it sounds like it's not religion you have a problem with but fanaticism. Which is a very different thing.
 
2013-04-08 11:09:47 AM

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.


Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!
 
2013-04-08 11:09:55 AM
I'm an atheist, and I don't hate Islam.  I don't hate any religion, nor the people who practice them.  Atheism =/= anti-theism.  I think a lot of people get that confused.  You can be both an atheist and an anti-theist, but they're not synonymous.  There's a lot of things about most organized religions I don't agree with, and a lot of things I'd like to see changed, but it's not my place to tell other people how to live, or that they're stupid for believing something I don't.....and vice versa.
 
2013-04-08 11:10:14 AM

s2s2s2: Yes. Well, maybe not "bigotry" but definitely bigotry.


Could you type that again, preferably in non-nonsense form?
 
2013-04-08 11:12:18 AM

NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.


Religion "works?"  In what way?
 
2013-04-08 11:14:42 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

This all or nothing argument of Atheists is lazy... Remember, religion/belief has ALWAYS been with the human species and in times when it was forcefully eradicated extraordinary violence followed (see Soviet/Chinese communism at its peak).

Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the Atheists to show that no religion is better than the slightest.

/All I see Atheists doing is destroying something that works.
//I don't see them creating anything better in the place of the burned ruins their ideas spread.
///Also, to hide behind "Harris/Dawkins are not Atheist leaders and there is no such thing", ignores reality very much... the reality that an uncertain Atheist is an agnostic and leaders at the top shape a very certain idea of Atheism.

Religion "works?"  In what way?


It does a reasonably good job at getting certain groups to act a certain way.
 
2013-04-08 11:15:53 AM

vactech: NostroZ: vactech: NostroZ: That IS the question of the article and to ALL ATHEISTS... if you tear something down, what are you building in its place?

As an atheist?

Would I say we go back to pre-Jesus times where we all would crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Yes I would, Nostro.

You seem to be under the God-Delusion that Christ is the ONLY religion people followed.

There was the Code of Hammurabi before the ten commandments.

Shiat!  Code of Hammurabable...that's what I meant to say.  My bad!


And prior to that there was the Code of Ur-Nammu.

Look man, religion exploded in Egypt around 4100 years ago and so did human civilization. Writing. Farming. Mathematics. Dentistry. Elaborate burial ritual, recreational games like bowling, hell BEER WAS INVENTED in Egypt around that time!

Now here you come 4100 years later and pretend that without a religious code civilization would flourish and here I am telling you, NO!
Religion is the basis of modern civilization.

I'd argue that the evolution from Animism->Polytheism->Monotheism has allowed us to become the great specie we are today.
 
2013-04-08 11:16:20 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion "works?" In what way?


In some cases it has a kick-ass art collection and rakes in millions of dollars without paying taxes.
 
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