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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 724
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14314 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 09:47:30 AM

Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?


Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:38 AM

jso2897: IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.


I didn't mean atheists, I meant atheism.  The biggest target for atheism should be people who would become atheists "but for" something that atheists do that offends them (and like it or not, fence-sitters in religion see atheists as a group, not as individuals).  I think the crap spouted by Atheism+ does more to drive potential "converts" away from doing so than anything Sam Harris does.

...and now that I think about it, A+ has, in fact, been big on "locking out" those atheists who don't agree with them.  That's the big thing, and that does harm those atheists that do want to be activists like Dawkins and do have something to contribute.  The prime example in this one os the Thunderf00t situation.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:44 AM

liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.

Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?

If every muslim woke up tomorrow and decided they no longer believed we woudl still have the ideas and beliefs of islam.

You can dislike or hate any school of thought ro religion and be fine with people who follow it.  It is nothing like hating a race where you must hate the people.


Fair enough, makes enough sense to me ;-)
 
2013-04-08 09:49:37 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.


Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.
 
2013-04-08 09:49:56 AM

doglover: And people who drive slow in the passing lane. I hate those guys. Give me a millitany atheist and Jihad Joe any day of the week.


I agree, Next in line: I don't like the automotive engineers who place the last bolt, on what should be a 5 minute fix, in such a place that it is impossible to remove without spending an hour, having to use a special bent out of shape tool and having to scrape your knuckles to remove. Then to add insult to injury, another hour to replace it! They're the same ones who makes the firewall side sparkplugs on a transverse mount V6 impossible to get at.

Here's a simple rule, if you design anything that has removable parts that you expect someone to remove eventually, they damn well make sure that it can be removed!
 
2013-04-08 09:50:28 AM

liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.


Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.
 
2013-04-08 09:51:04 AM

Mugato: tenpoundsofcheese: atheists are intolerant.
the article is about them being hatemongers.

happy that you agree.

You don't see the irony of classifying an entire group of people as intolerant?


10lbs: I hate all intolerant people.  And atheists.
 
2013-04-08 09:52:44 AM

namatad: Why did we need any more postings?
/All religion is delusion. Morality without religion? UNPOSSIBLE!!!


So far, all the Fark threads about religion and such have only managed to show me one thing.. and that is that there is one side of this debate that proves itself to believe in being self-righteous, self-important, belief that they are better, smarter and are very egotistic, and will project to the other side, what they claim to be "clean from doing".  Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.

What to guess which side it is?
 
2013-04-08 09:52:45 AM
Noted religious moralist:
Hitler (yes, I know, he was just pretending to be religious to gain support)
pedophile priests

oh never mind
It would be interesting to see a study on morality vs belief in god
 
2013-04-08 09:52:53 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

Yes, people would still kill other people because those reasons still would exist in our world. So people who murder for money, doesn't get solved one way or another with this issue. But no one would be killing for their deity. Now, the other idea Dennett gets into (well one of many) is that may also exist for some good that comes out of religion that would also be eliminated that doesn't exist without that meme. So, people would still be charitable and help each other out, but there'd be no comfort of the thought of an afterlife that they or their decedents would go to. They'd lose that comfort, and I'm sure the concept is VERY comforting. Our fears about death and ending can't exist in the manner that they do without religion. Afterlife beliefs are a very powerful coping mechanism. A comfort I envy, I sure do wish I thought it was true.

Anyhoo, they're interesting ideas, and Dennett is pretty awesome.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:17 AM

Plant Rights Activist: any time you try and justify an unjustifiable action by saying, "god told me to do it" is evil.  Regardless of which specific cult it is.


Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:35 AM
That should have been "WANT to guess" not "what"...

/Monday, still slightly asleep...
 
2013-04-08 09:56:03 AM
So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.
 
2013-04-08 09:56:38 AM

s2s2s2: You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.


THIS
I have never sinned. I give huge amounts of money to charity. And I didnt require religion to do.

imfallen_angel: Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.


I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?
 
2013-04-08 09:56:39 AM

Lonestar: What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.


I'VE ALWAYS SAID "WHAT WOOD HAPPEN IF ALIENS CAMW DOWN AND ONE WAS EVIL ALIENS AND WE HAD TO KILL THEM BUT THE ATHIESTS WERE FOLLOWING IT AND THEY WANTED IT TO BE A PRIEST." WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN? AND THEY CAN'T TELL ME.
 
2013-04-08 09:56:59 AM

Lady Indica: HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:

Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you? Yes some sects of Christianity DO have additional conditions for salvation, but the bible (and Jesus' dialogue therein) were pretty farking specific that the only thing required was belief in him.

Illustrated also by the thief next to him, who was getting in...not cause he was sorry or wasn't a bastard, but because he recognized Jesus as 'the son of god'.

/has no need for get out of hell free cards


uh yup, i was right the first time... citations:

Believing upon Jesus (the right Jesus) is a necessity to being saved: John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

We must turn from our wicked ways: Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." and also Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Just acknowledging Jesus isn't enough: Shortly after John 3:16, it tells us in verse 21, "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." Also, James 2:19-26 says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Some people claim that they are Christian, so that they feel they are going to heaven, but if they don't turn from their wicked lifestyle, then they aren't living up to their professed faith.

There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.
 
2013-04-08 09:57:55 AM

bunner: Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?

Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.


TOTAL hijack aside, but Dark Dungeons is my favorite Chick comic. Wish I had an IRL copy. :D And if you haven't seen this...enjoy... Cthulhu Tract
 
2013-04-08 09:58:11 AM

s2s2s2: HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God

Nope. You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.


nope... read my post to the Lady.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:49 AM

Uncle Tractor: And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

The NT mandates burning apostates (see my prev post, the one with the pic).


There are no good religions, only religions that haven't had the chance to do very much bad shiat yet.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:51 AM

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.


Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?
 
2013-04-08 09:59:14 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


www.fakesteve.net
 
2013-04-08 10:02:16 AM

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.
 
2013-04-08 10:02:36 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.


welcome to moral relativism and reality.
Many things which today we consider immoral were once moral. Public hangings, castes systems, religions governments, cruel punishment of criminals, debtor prisons, debt bondage, and so on.
 
2013-04-08 10:03:24 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?


I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:01 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?


What an Obtusian may look like...
1.bp.blogspot.com

/Family Guy... is there anything they haven't done?
 
2013-04-08 10:04:04 AM

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:10 AM

Lady Indica: But no one would be killing for their deity.


What it comes down to, they don't kill for their deity, they kill because they want to, they decided to, they either lead or follow blindly, in the same way people will kill for their king or country.

In all wars, people kill for an idea, nothing more, and the idea is a MacGuffin, for the dead, did the goal really mattered?

Nah, it's all about egos... wanting to be "right", so everyone selects a set of beliefs, justify themselves with it, some let it become their whole being, and become adamant about pursuing this beliefs regardless of anything else.  And this mediocre civilization where survival is too easy, people need something to justify their existence... which results in theist and atheist alike share that common bond.

Problem is, the more vocal ones on each sides are dicks.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:36 AM
It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...
 
2013-04-08 10:05:08 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise


I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:35 AM

namatad: I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?


Nope... read what you wrote....that is my point exactly... the self-righteousness... you just did it.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:47 AM

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


Name a Muslim theocracy that DOESN'T reinforce a 'brutal and harmful system of social norms'.
 
2013-04-08 10:07:51 AM

The Larch: tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise

I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.


Ain't you just a ray of glittering light from above.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:00 AM
"Saying inflammatory things about Islam isn't out of character for the New Atheists, since they're the kind of people who ask whether religion is the root of all evil and seriously debate the existence of God with believers. They say nasty things about Christians all the time, and, in fairness to them, countries that are governed by Islamic law have done horrible things (as have Christian nations and, it turns out, Buddhist countries too)."

Which of these religions is still forcing its adherents to do these horrible things?

/if you tell me which god, is not like the others
//then I'll call you Islamophobe
 
2013-04-08 10:08:01 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.


I'm sure it's not what you believe, but it IS what some sects of Christianity believe. The most basic is: believe in Jesus go to heaven. Many other sects tack on additional shiat (Catholics have more than a few additional rules, and I use them b/c I was raised Catholic and know it reeeeally well. ;)). Each sect believes their way is 'The One True Way' and uses various methods to demonstrate that their way is 'The One True Way'. Though as some faiths have modernized some have acknowledged there might be more than One True Way...but theirs remains the best and most ideal and TRUEST...of course. ;)

Point being, there's apparently lot of true ways, and one of 'em is just accept jesus go to heaven.

And check out Chick.com if your stomach can handle it. Fortunately Jack Chick (and his comics) doesn't represent any majority of Christianity.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:20 AM
The author's attempts at empathy are weak and unconvincing.  He disproves his own contentions.
 
2013-04-08 10:08:43 AM

PunGent: Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.


Well, let's be fair here... as I said, the vocal ones on all sides are the problematic side, and that's my point.

Regardless of beliefs, etc. if someone feels justified to do someone bad, they'll do it.
 
2013-04-08 10:09:27 AM

PunGent: sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.

Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.


Believers in what pray-tell?
pro-tip: if you're gonna criticize something, spend a little time learning what the hell it is first.
 
2013-04-08 10:10:10 AM

Skeptigal: It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...


or not pray outside?
 
2013-04-08 10:10:28 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Bingo.

I grew up with an atheist Dad and a Catholic Mom.  I got pretty involved in church volunteering and youth leadership stuff, and never once did my Dad try to convince me that it was all BS.  He just let me figure out my own way and made sure I had access to a ridiculous number of books at all times.  And now I'm an agnostic humanist, for lack of a better term, which is cool with me.

There are assholes in every sub-grouping of humanity.  Just kind of how it goes.
 
2013-04-08 10:13:05 AM

liam76: Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.

That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.


I'll say it before, and I'll say it again:

if it's just Islam, in and of itself, that leads to brutal and harmful societal norms, then why isn't that evident in Dearborn, MI?

/more importantly than the nuance you're lacking is the myopic vision you're flaunting
 
2013-04-08 10:13:13 AM
What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide. You don't need God to be a good person, but you do need some way of differentiating good acts from bad, virtue from evil.

Here you go:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 10:13:23 AM
FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?
 
2013-04-08 10:15:14 AM

Divinegrace: I have meet tens of thousands of people so far, of those about a half a dozen times I have meet someone and was "Wowed" by their spite / hate / self-centered nature...not just a little bit spite/hateful, but WOW level. While I will not list the names of the people who were THAT gawd awful, I could if I had to...each and every one of them.

So I would say the percentage of people I have meet that were excessively spiteful / hateful / self-centered...so much so that I took the time to ask about their 'Faith" would be less than one half of one percent....of that less than one half of one percent, 100% were agnostic or atheist. I hope that clears things up.


Well, it clears things up but not in the way I think you hoped it did.  What you've actually admitted is that you have no idea how many of the remaining 99.995% of people who you thought didn't have a "spiteful/hateful/self-centred nature" were actually atheists.  This simply demonstrates that you've assumed that they're not atheists and that therefore you assume christians are somehow "better".  Taking this in to account, how then do we know that your opinion of that allegedly dastardly half dozen is not in any way coloured by your own obvious prejudices?  We don't and nor can we lend further statements from you much credence, coming as they do from somebody who is so obviously prejudiced.
 
2013-04-08 10:17:01 AM

Lady Indica: HindiDiscoMonster: There is more, but my post is getting too long-winded.

I'm sure it's not what you believe, but it IS what some sects of Christianity believe. The most basic is: believe in Jesus go to heaven. Many other sects tack on additional shiat (Catholics have more than a few additional rules, and I use them b/c I was raised Catholic and know it reeeeally well. ;)). Each sect believes their way is 'The One True Way' and uses various methods to demonstrate that their way is 'The One True Way'. Though as some faiths have modernized some have acknowledged there might be more than One True Way...but theirs remains the best and most ideal and TRUEST...of course. ;)

Point being, there's apparently lot of true ways, and one of 'em is just accept jesus go to heaven.

And check out Chick.com if your stomach can handle it. Fortunately Jack Chick (and his comics) doesn't represent any majority of Christianity.


What I believe is that if you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the other things will come naturally just as par for the course.

I'll check out that link, but for now... i need FOOD bad... my blood sugar is probably -80 by now.
 
2013-04-08 10:18:07 AM
The author claims the Bible was written by white men? He is not familiar with the fact that early Christians and Jews were Arabs? Just because the pictures depict a white Jesus doesn't mean he was...
 
xcv
2013-04-08 10:18:14 AM

Gunther: IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

Oh man, PZ Myers; there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember adding him to my RSS feed a decade ago when he mostly wrote about biology and evolution. I unsubscribed a few years ago when his posts started being mostly about how everyone who wasn't his precise sub-type of atheism was crazy/stupid/evil. What's happened to him?


Reminded me of this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
http://skepsheik.blogspot.se/2012/09/congratulations-to-pz-myers.htm l
 
2013-04-08 10:18:35 AM

mantafirefly: Hey, at least we atheists aren't using our stance to uphold blatant human rights abuses and aparteid. You know, like every religion ever has done and fought for whenever it has had a say.


And, I've never heard that the Tooth Fairy burned anyone alive for their beliefs.
 
2013-04-08 10:19:53 AM
Of course there are all degrees of Muslims, but if we're honest with ourselves, the spectrum doesn't run parallel alongside Christianity. The percentage of Christians who don't believe in contraception is something like 10%. Both the severity and prevalence of horrendous Islamic beliefs is much higher. When we talk about Islam, we're not just talking about "You shouldn't use condoms." Many Muslims believe women should be locked in their homes with no access to any situation that could possibly cause them to be exposed to any male other than their husband, and a clear majority of them at least believe that women should not be educated, and should be murdered if they ever decide that they don't want to be Muslims anymore.

Hours and hours of interviews exist such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2x32tG6-F0

If people like the man in this video were rare extremists, their views would not be dominating and setting the tone of culture in all Muslim countries (except possibly Turkey and Malaysia.) Christians who hate birth control aren't able to prevent it from being sold because they are fringe extremists. This man represents the median of culture in the Middle East.

Here is an article summarizing Pew Research data among worldwide Muslims:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41425/pew-report-13-of-us-muslims-sup po rt-al-qaeda-60-say-911-attacks-not-done-by-muslims-arabs-13-say-being- muslim-conflicts-w-modern-society-25-came-to-us-under-bush/

Approximately 1 out of 3 Muslims in the world supports Al Qaeda and thinks that suicide bombings are a justifiable sociopolitical tool for spreading and preserving the influence of Islam. The raw numbers can be found here: http://www.pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=19&survey=1&response=Oft e n/sometimes%20justified&mode=chart

These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It has been over a decade since a Christian has assassinated an abortion provider.

It's no secret that I am a critic of all religion, and I frequently go up against the regressive influence that Christianity has on American culture, but when it comes to dread destructive forces in the 21st century, there can be no doubt that Islam is public enemy number one.

And I will preempt anyone who might call me a bigot by insisting that there is no such thing as bigotry against an idea or set of ideas. I am not a racist, and I have no quarrel with people of Arabic descent, so long as they are not Muslims. Saying that I don't like Muslims is no different than someone saying that they don't like Republicans.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:15 AM

orbister: FTFA: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that book of rules to which religions provide demand unquestioning obedience.

Principles.

Next question?


www.critiques4geeks.com

While I have no innate disagreement with this broad scope admonition as a suitable basis for societal management, I can't hep but ponder as to the impetus of what we presently, as a culture, define as such.
 
2013-04-08 10:20:32 AM

cman: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

The writer of the article is atheist

This is an atheist biatching about bigotry


It's not bigotry.
 
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