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(Vice)   What do you mean we atheists are Islamophobe hatemongers? That's ridi... well, that's actually pretty spot-on   (vice.com) divider line 678
    More: Sad, new atheists, Islamophobia, The God Delusion, Islamist terrorists, Thomas Aquinas, God Is Not Great, Islamic fundamentalism, atheists  
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14320 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2013 at 5:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-08 09:23:52 AM  

BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"


 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:24 AM  

Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?


...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:36 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: not the way you are using it... that is referring to the day of judgement, when the world will be judged.


According to who? I'm sure all those people who were burned at the stake would like to know.

...But again; it's the zeitgeist that counts, not the holy texts.
 
2013-04-08 09:25:58 AM  

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


is that better?
 
2013-04-08 09:28:24 AM  

Gunther: Lonestar: Ahh the internet, full of people that want to read only a few lines of text and figure out what the other guy means. If its not in the established brackets its too complicated.

 If you often find people are failing to understand you, perhaps you should learn to communicate more effectively.

I've read through that post three times now, and I still have no idea WTF you are talking about.


Good, then the post wasnt meant for you.
 
2013-04-08 09:31:26 AM  
Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence?  Color me shocked.
 
2013-04-08 09:32:06 AM  

IlGreven: I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


Why is Dawkins lumped in with Harris anyway? I've read both their books. "God Delusion" is Dawkins building an argument against belief in gods. "End of Faith" is an anti-islamic rant. Reading (EoF) was like watching everything Fox News ever said about Islam, over and over.
 
2013-04-08 09:33:08 AM  

liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.


Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?
 
2013-04-08 09:33:21 AM  

IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.
 
2013-04-08 09:33:32 AM  
If you think gay sex is aberrant, you are a homophobe. This isn't necessarily true, but it is accepted as fact.

This type of terminology was bound to bite an ass or two. NTTATWWT.
 
2013-04-08 09:37:00 AM  

bullsballs: Thanks to atheism, Sadism and living for the moment is AOK!
There is no God, and no need to worry about retribution after you die, as there is no afterlife, no Heaven or hell.
Everything is of man, so you can make your own rules to live and die by.


Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!

/See, I can make excuses for "perceived" horrible behavior, too!
//Lower percentage of atheists in prison than in the free population.
///Higher percentage of Christians in prison than in the free population.
 
2013-04-08 09:38:18 AM  

BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.

Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?


If every muslim woke up tomorrow and decided they no longer believed we woudl still have the ideas and beliefs of islam.

You can dislike or hate any school of thought ro religion and be fine with people who follow it.  It is nothing like hating a race where you must hate the people.
 
2013-04-08 09:38:56 AM  

Lorelle: That's not true. I despise all religions equally.

OK, so I hate Catholicism a little bit more than other religions, but that's because I had it shoved down my throat for the first 17 years of my life.


i290.photobucket.com

Poor lil boy, 17 years!?
 
2013-04-08 09:39:14 AM  

Super_pope: Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence?  Color me shocked.


The problem is that too many people are too ignorant to know the difference between simple customs and tenants of Islam and too wrapped up in being right to realize that it's not the belief system that's the problem but the behaviors and social conventions. You're never going to convince people to give up an established, organized religion but once you figure out that it's the violence and bigotry that you hate and not the religion then you've really made some progress and you've got a chance to actually fix something.
 
2013-04-08 09:40:41 AM  

Lizardking: propasaurus: That's fascinating. Do tell me how much you Christians love Islam.

I dont love Islam. I dont hate it either. Its just another religion to me, I respect the people who practice it and dont try to tell them they are wrong.

If you hate or fear anyone because of a religion, youre a farking idiot. Your religion and the ignorance it caused in you is the problem, not the other persons religion.


If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...
 
2013-04-08 09:42:41 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


No one person speaks for atheists. It is not a religion nor a cult nor an organization nor anything. It is a personal belief, no different then someone who believes in God. Richard Dawkins is an attention whore trying to get publicity for his book by impying that he speaks for atheists and that all atheists are like him.
 
2013-04-08 09:42:48 AM  

IlGreven: There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.


Oh man, PZ Myers; there's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember adding him to my RSS feed a decade ago when he mostly wrote about biology and evolution. I unsubscribed a few years ago when his posts started being mostly about how everyone who wasn't his precise sub-type of atheism was crazy/stupid/evil. What's happened to him?
 
2013-04-08 09:44:40 AM  

IlGreven: Thanks to Christianity, you can be a sadistic evil bastard on Earth, but all you have to do is convert on your deathbed and all your sins will be forgiven!


Your taking the words of idiots as a true representation of the faith doesn't bode well for your credibility.

Sheep go to heaven, Goats go to hell.

Sheep: People who do good for those in need, regardless of any religious drive to do so.
Goats: People who refuse to do good for those in need, and refuse to do so in the name of God.
 
2013-04-08 09:45:12 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:


Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you? Yes some sects of Christianity DO have additional conditions for salvation, but the bible (and Jesus' dialogue therein) were pretty farking specific that the only thing required was belief in him.

Illustrated also by the thief next to him, who was getting in...not cause he was sorry or wasn't a bastard, but because he recognized Jesus as 'the son of god'.

/has no need for get out of hell free cards
 
2013-04-08 09:45:20 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Super_pope: Athiests are unfriendly to a religion from a less developed region of the world where religious differences are often met with brutal violence? Color me shocked.

The problem is that too many people are too ignorant to know the difference between simple customs and tenants of Islam and too wrapped up in being right to realize that it's not the belief system that's the problem but the behaviors and social conventions


Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.
 
2013-04-08 09:46:54 AM  

Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?


Doktor_Zhivago: Some atheists are retards.  Luckily they are unique among the various sub-groupings of humanity.


Relatively Obscure: What I'm wondering, though, is what atheism puts in place of that morality and framework that religions provide.

Oh, this shiat again.


Why did we need any more postings?
/All religion is delusion. Morality without religion? UNPOSSIBLE!!!
 
2013-04-08 09:46:57 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: nope. You have to do the following:
1> Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (truly)
2> Repent (which is not an apology but a turning away from sin)
3> Confess your sins
4> Ask forgiveness from God


Nope. You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.
 
2013-04-08 09:46:59 AM  

PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...


What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.
 
2013-04-08 09:47:30 AM  

Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?


Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:38 AM  

jso2897: IlGreven: Gunther: OK, I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading all of the articles and such he links to, and as far as I can tell, his problem isn't that all atheists are Islamophobes, it's that one atheist  (Sam Harris) has said some inflammatory stuff about Islam that was taken out of context by someone else to make it sound like he was bigoted.

Big. Farking. Deal. Even if he was a bigot, why the hell would one bigoted atheist somehow mean the whole movement had a problem with Islam? Is Sam Harris the atheist pope now?

...this is the fourth article in three weeks that I've seen that rails against the "Islamophobia" of the Big Three of "New" Atheism: Sam Harris (and they only cite him from the book he wrote a decade ago), Richard Dawkins (and they only cite him in the form of out-of-context tweets and books he wrote a decade ago), and Christopher Hitchens (who's been dead for a year and a half).

There is a real threat to Atheism, but it's not any of these three: It's this dumbass Atheism+ movement that requires the shrill type of misandrist feminism that people like Adria Richards thrive off of, and uses tactics most atheists left the church to get away from to ensure "purity". Just say no to Pope PZ Myers and High Priestess Rebecca Watson.  I'd rather be lumped in with "Islamophobes" like Dawkins and Harris.

A "real threat" to whose atheism? Not mine. Angry, judgmental "atheists" are about as much a threat to my atheism as gay marriage is to my marriage.


I didn't mean atheists, I meant atheism.  The biggest target for atheism should be people who would become atheists "but for" something that atheists do that offends them (and like it or not, fence-sitters in religion see atheists as a group, not as individuals).  I think the crap spouted by Atheism+ does more to drive potential "converts" away from doing so than anything Sam Harris does.

...and now that I think about it, A+ has, in fact, been big on "locking out" those atheists who don't agree with them.  That's the big thing, and that does harm those atheists that do want to be activists like Dawkins and do have something to contribute.  The prime example in this one os the Thunderf00t situation.
 
2013-04-08 09:48:44 AM  

liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: liam76: BgJonson79: Lusiphur: Can you be considered an "islamaphobe" if you simply hate religion? Wouldn't that just be a religiophobe?

All religiophobes would be islamaphobes like they'd be judeophobes as well. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Bigotry would require you to hate all practioners of the religion.

You can hate the religion and not all practioners.

How is that different than saying, "I hate the race but not the people of it?"

 Because you can't seperate race from its people.   That is what makes it up.  A religion is made up of people, ideas, beliefs.  You can hate the ideas and beliefs but have no problem with the people.

Don't those ideas and beliefs only exist BECAUSE of the people?

If every muslim woke up tomorrow and decided they no longer believed we woudl still have the ideas and beliefs of islam.

You can dislike or hate any school of thought ro religion and be fine with people who follow it.  It is nothing like hating a race where you must hate the people.


Fair enough, makes enough sense to me ;-)
 
2013-04-08 09:49:37 AM  

sudo give me more cowbell: FTA: "If you are attempting to eradicate religion oneNew York Times bestseller at a time, like Harris and Dawkins are, maybe it makes sense to go after what you perceive as the "worst" belief system first, then the next-worst, and so on, until the only faith left in the world is a pacifist combo of Unitarianism and Jainism."

I'm unitarian, and I'm totally getting a kick out of this. I'm also always keen to hear from the atheists as to whether they can find any moral or intellectual objection to my "religion" 's principles, writings or social activities. They never do.

/smugger than thou.


Actually, Dawkins does.  One of his points is that non-extremist believers...such as yourself...make it easier for extremist believers of ALL types, by making the "inherently-ludicrous" (ie, illogical) idea of ANY god existing respectable.

Ie, the Church of England, just by existing, moves global society's god/no god debate to toward the "god" side, inherently making Islamic Jihad closer to the 'center'.

Now, I'm not sure there's a SOLUTION (short of mind control and violent eugenics) for the problem, but I think nobody has managed to quite refute his point, either.
 
2013-04-08 09:49:56 AM  

doglover: And people who drive slow in the passing lane. I hate those guys. Give me a millitany atheist and Jihad Joe any day of the week.


I agree, Next in line: I don't like the automotive engineers who place the last bolt, on what should be a 5 minute fix, in such a place that it is impossible to remove without spending an hour, having to use a special bent out of shape tool and having to scrape your knuckles to remove. Then to add insult to injury, another hour to replace it! They're the same ones who makes the firewall side sparkplugs on a transverse mount V6 impossible to get at.

Here's a simple rule, if you design anything that has removable parts that you expect someone to remove eventually, they damn well make sure that it can be removed!
 
2013-04-08 09:50:28 AM  

liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.


Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.
 
2013-04-08 09:51:04 AM  

Mugato: tenpoundsofcheese: atheists are intolerant.
the article is about them being hatemongers.

happy that you agree.

You don't see the irony of classifying an entire group of people as intolerant?


10lbs: I hate all intolerant people.  And atheists.
 
2013-04-08 09:52:44 AM  

namatad: Why did we need any more postings?
/All religion is delusion. Morality without religion? UNPOSSIBLE!!!


So far, all the Fark threads about religion and such have only managed to show me one thing.. and that is that there is one side of this debate that proves itself to believe in being self-righteous, self-important, belief that they are better, smarter and are very egotistic, and will project to the other side, what they claim to be "clean from doing".  Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.

What to guess which side it is?
 
2013-04-08 09:52:45 AM  
Noted religious moralist:
Hitler (yes, I know, he was just pretending to be religious to gain support)
pedophile priests

oh never mind
It would be interesting to see a study on morality vs belief in god
 
2013-04-08 09:52:53 AM  

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


If you get a chance, watch some Dan Dennett on YouTube, it deals specifically with this issue. And the idea that the religion meme carries with it specific evils which may not exist outside of that type of thinking. That if you look at the religion meme as sort of a virus, you may have symptoms that ONLY occur because of it.

Yes, people would still kill other people because those reasons still would exist in our world. So people who murder for money, doesn't get solved one way or another with this issue. But no one would be killing for their deity. Now, the other idea Dennett gets into (well one of many) is that may also exist for some good that comes out of religion that would also be eliminated that doesn't exist without that meme. So, people would still be charitable and help each other out, but there'd be no comfort of the thought of an afterlife that they or their decedents would go to. They'd lose that comfort, and I'm sure the concept is VERY comforting. Our fears about death and ending can't exist in the manner that they do without religion. Afterlife beliefs are a very powerful coping mechanism. A comfort I envy, I sure do wish I thought it was true.

Anyhoo, they're interesting ideas, and Dennett is pretty awesome.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:17 AM  

Plant Rights Activist: any time you try and justify an unjustifiable action by saying, "god told me to do it" is evil.  Regardless of which specific cult it is.


Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.
 
2013-04-08 09:53:35 AM  
That should have been "WANT to guess" not "what"...

/Monday, still slightly asleep...
 
2013-04-08 09:56:03 AM  
So far we've discovered that nobody is going to change anybody's mind, we didn't build this place but we're sure we will eventually crack the encryption block on the user manual and we end up at the end of the day, pronouncing things either stupid or awesome. Few of those things fitting either description.  Clean break.  Wait for the bell.
 
2013-04-08 09:56:38 AM  

s2s2s2: You just have to do right by your fellow man. Faith is not required.


THIS
I have never sinned. I give huge amounts of money to charity. And I didnt require religion to do.

imfallen_angel: Those speaking for this side has proved time and time again that their morality is based on all these aspect and have no regard or tolerance for anyone that doesn't share their beliefs.


I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?
 
2013-04-08 09:56:39 AM  

Lonestar: What? Respect to all human life, but now we are invaded by 2 groups of aliens one good one evil and we have to kill one to survive? What if the evil aliens have convinced Athiests to follow them? And what is "respect" anyways? Decent burial? "Protection and spread of knowledge only applies to our side, the rest can rot in 2013." Or there could be simply be a single group of aliens that want to be priests.


I'VE ALWAYS SAID "WHAT WOOD HAPPEN IF ALIENS CAMW DOWN AND ONE WAS EVIL ALIENS AND WE HAD TO KILL THEM BUT THE ATHIESTS WERE FOLLOWING IT AND THEY WANTED IT TO BE A PRIEST." WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN? AND THEY CAN'T TELL ME.
 
2013-04-08 09:57:55 AM  

bunner: Lady Indica: Newp. You haven't read Jack Chick comics have you?

Thanks this is hilarious.  :  )  Seriously.  No snark, just.. I needed a grin.


TOTAL hijack aside, but Dark Dungeons is my favorite Chick comic. Wish I had an IRL copy. :D And if you haven't seen this...enjoy... Cthulhu Tract
 
2013-04-08 09:58:49 AM  

Uncle Tractor: And these aren't punishments that are isolated to one sect, or cultural sub-group, or came out of nowhere - these are all things that are mandated by the Quran.

The NT mandates burning apostates (see my prev post, the one with the pic).


There are no good religions, only religions that haven't had the chance to do very much bad shiat yet.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:51 AM  

bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.


Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?
 
2013-04-08 10:02:16 AM  

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


That brutal and harmful system of societal norms is supported by the teachings of Islam.

I never said all muslims are evil.  Odd that you would wine about lack of nuance, when you are straight up lying about my stance.

Me highlighting problems with a religion isn't hatemongering.
 
2013-04-08 10:02:36 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Unjustifiable to whom? Unjustifiable in GOD's eyes? If there is no arbitor in the universe that determines right and wrong, then upon what do you base your belief that any action is unjust? To the suicide bomber whose family was killed by a bunker buster 4 years ago, his actions are very just.


welcome to moral relativism and reality.
Many things which today we consider immoral were once moral. Public hangings, castes systems, religions governments, cruel punishment of criminals, debtor prisons, debt bondage, and so on.
 
2013-04-08 10:03:24 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: PC LOAD LETTER: bunner: Religion and atheism have a lot in common.  They both like to blowhard false dichotomies between two approaches to life that have, so far, gotten us here.  Carry on.  Fresh poo and incredulous smirks at the popcorn stand.

Oh, DO tell us your well-honed philosophy of life, so that we can be in awe of it's splendor.

"Don't be a dick."  No charge.

So, you are an atheist then?

I firmly believe in making damn sure I have some sort of patch on my sleeve that will appease whoever is asking.

Well, you said atheism and theism was a false dichotomy. I am sure you have a third option? Or are you an Obtusian?


I'm a celebrant of false dichotomies as a life's mission.  But only ironically.  You don't know for sure, they don't know for sure and I don't know for sure but we desperately need to find out.  We do this by reassuring ourselves that we already DO know, we just need to tweak it a bit.  Most of what we need to effectively run this planet is already extant in the conscience of any 7 year old.  But we manage to break them of the habit of thinking that things are actually as easy as they seem.  Man, we're the cat's ass.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:04 AM  

imfallen_angel: PunGent: If someone's screwed-up interpretation of their religion tells them to kill you, isn't shooting them in self-defense ethical?

Do unto others, before they do unto you...

What most fail to understand that it's not "religion" that's truly bad, it's the people and their actions.

If those people didn't have religion to hide behind, they'd use whatever else that would be convenient, politics, monarchies/patriarchies, medicine, schools/teacher position, etc.  just anything that place them in some sort of power over others.

One could use a spoon to kill someone... doesn't mean the spoon is evil. It's what one does with it.


Yes, but to take your example...some spoons are small, hand-sized, and much more useful for eating soup than killing someone, while other spoons are three feet long and have dual handgrips and razor-sharp edges...

Which spoons are statistically likely to kill more people?
Being cautious about the second type of spoon isn't bigotry...it's simple math.

There's not a lot of Quaker suicide bombers out there.

I view Islam like Communism...both may be fine in THEORY, but in PRACTICE the violent-asshole ratio is WAY too high for my comfort, and it's a shiatty method for ruling a country.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:10 AM  

Lady Indica: But no one would be killing for their deity.


What it comes down to, they don't kill for their deity, they kill because they want to, they decided to, they either lead or follow blindly, in the same way people will kill for their king or country.

In all wars, people kill for an idea, nothing more, and the idea is a MacGuffin, for the dead, did the goal really mattered?

Nah, it's all about egos... wanting to be "right", so everyone selects a set of beliefs, justify themselves with it, some let it become their whole being, and become adamant about pursuing this beliefs regardless of anything else.  And this mediocre civilization where survival is too easy, people need something to justify their existence... which results in theist and atheist alike share that common bond.

Problem is, the more vocal ones on each sides are dicks.
 
2013-04-08 10:04:36 AM  
It doesn't really matter what religion one espouses, it's more a matter of degree. Rabid followers of any religion (or non-religion) cannot see past their tinted lenses. You kids are giving me a headache, go pray outside...
 
2013-04-08 10:05:08 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: they are really the most intolerant people
so no surprise


I love your fark handle. When I read your posts, I imagine you're a 450 lbs. man who just ate a huge block of cheese and is now spraying the most foul, putrid diarrahea all over everyone and everything you see.

You leave a little trail behind you everywhere you go on your hoverround. Its so disgusting that even dogs won't follow you.

You are so miserable and alone. Only the cheese is your friend. You sob as you take another bite.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:35 AM  

namatad: I think you confuse tolerance with morality.
While I am certain that all religions are delusions, I am not advocating that we act intolerant of believers.
That we lock them up for seeing jesus in their toast. That we try to ban religion.

Strange, but why would the founding fathers work so HARD to separate religion and government?


Nope... read what you wrote....that is my point exactly... the self-righteousness... you just did it.
 
2013-04-08 10:06:47 AM  

Voiceofreason01: liam76: Yeah, death penalty fro apostacy is a big problem in my book (not to mention 4 witnesses to prove rape, wife beating, etc), call me crazy.

Some people in a third world shiathole use Islam to reinforce a brutal and harmful system of social norms, therefore all Muslims are evil......yep don't see any problem with that line of reasoning.

/but by all means don't let a reasoned and nuanced view of the world ruin you're tribalism and hatemongering. After all, you're Right.


Name a Muslim theocracy that DOESN'T reinforce a 'brutal and harmful system of social norms'.
 
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