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(Daily Mail)   Proving they are one step away from the Westboro Baptist Church, anonymous celebrates Holocaust Memorial Day by hacking Israeli websites and replacing them with pro-terrorist and anti-semitic propaganda   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 371
    More: Asinine, Westboro Baptist Church, Israelis, Holocaust, Holocaust memorial day, e-government, programmers, Holocaust victims  
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7311 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2013 at 5:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-07 05:20:18 PM
Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit
 
2013-04-07 05:20:59 PM
Meh, after the World War 3 starts because of North Korea it's not going to matter that much anyway.
 
2013-04-07 05:22:45 PM
So, have they done anything worthwhile yet?
 
2013-04-07 05:22:53 PM
It's true cuz anyone to the left of Bennett is pro-terrorist and anti-semitic.
 
2013-04-07 05:23:08 PM
Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...
 
2013-04-07 05:23:29 PM
I think they're specifically targeting Israel the government, not Jews themselves.
 
2013-04-07 05:23:31 PM
Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.
 
2013-04-07 05:23:33 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.
 
2013-04-07 05:25:17 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


Indeed. And like I've said many times before, Israeli Apartheid Week has done more to promote and popularise anti-semitism than any cultural phenomenon since the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
 
2013-04-07 05:25:39 PM
I guess they didn't want us to think they were going soft.
 
2013-04-07 05:27:39 PM
Maybe they should put together a team of mossad agents to track them down and kill them? And for good measure they can kill a random waiter, ensuring a good harvest
 
2013-04-07 05:27:42 PM
imageshack.us
 
2013-04-07 05:28:03 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-07 05:28:04 PM
Quick how many people has Westboro Baptist killed in their homes, arrested without probable cause, or cost the US government to the nearest $ billion?

None of that has anything to do with hating "the Jews." It has everything to do with hating the Israeli government and the fact my taxes help to prop it up.

Daily Fail has figured out how to get page views though, trolling dumbfks. Maybe Westboro and Daily Fail have more in common.
 
2013-04-07 05:28:12 PM
Or its a false flag by western intelligence to drum up hatred for anon.

/nothing would surprise me
 
2013-04-07 05:28:40 PM
That's the thing about Anonymous. It isn't a singular group.

"Anonymous" is a name that any person or group can adopt when it suits their needs. Anyone can download a picture of a Guy Fawkes mask. Anyone can engage in "hacktivism" on the Internet and use the name "Anonymous." Anyone with half a brain can make a spooky video with a computerized voice reading a communique "from Anonymous."

This means the anons who protested WBC and Scientology might not be the same anons hacking Israeli websites. Or maybe some of them are. I honestly don't know.

Whenever I see Anonymous referred to as a "group," I see a reporter who doesn't understand the concept.
 
2013-04-07 05:29:33 PM

friday13: Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...


Meh. Even if true it doesn't mean anything. It's Anonymous we're talking about here, an amorphous group with no defined agenda or ideals. Moreover, of people who call themselves "Anonymous", those who would do this are outliers.
 
2013-04-07 05:29:34 PM
So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.
 
2013-04-07 05:30:15 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


This.
 
2013-04-07 05:30:44 PM
OH NO, OH GOD...

Anon attacked jews?

OH GOD, THOSE MONSTERS. It was alright when it was mormons, scientology, right wing political groups, corporations, and anyone else under the sun.

BUT JEWS? TO FAR! The jews are innocent little blessed chosen people of god! They don't deserve it! After all, it would take them doing something seriously wrong like creating ghettos for another group of people while trying to wield the united states like a great Goy house slave to do its bidding and stir up perpetual shiat in the middle east for them to deserve the attention of anon..

And we all know the jews are nothing but beneficial to the world, even when they become an isolationist racial/theocratic state and constantly stir up shiat.

THE JEWS ARE OFF LIMITS, SO SAYS THE JEWS.
 
2013-04-07 05:30:52 PM

austin_millbarge: Or its a false flag by western intelligence to drum up hatred for anon.

/nothing would surprise me


yeah about this.
 
2013-04-07 05:31:21 PM

you are a puppet: Maybe they should put together a team of mossad agents to track them down and kill them? And for good measure they can kill a random waiter, ensuring a good harvest


/what you meant?
 
2013-04-07 05:31:59 PM

austin_millbarge: Or its a false flag by western intelligence to drum up hatred for anon.

/nothing would surprise me


Well, that's certainly possible, but what people in the media can't seem to comprehend is that anon is not a hierarchical organization.  Hell it's not even an organization.  It's quite possible that a bunch of desensitized tards who grew up looking at orgrish.com would think this was a fun thing to do.
 
2013-04-07 05:32:00 PM

Uncle Tractor: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x480]


I can't possible be anti-semitic.  I bought matzos at the grocery store last month.
 
2013-04-07 05:32:23 PM

Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.


Not really. Not since the 1960s.

Soviet Jews were the rallying force of Zionism in the 70s and 80s. Through the 90s it's been about other Jewish communities as well as portraying itself as a buffer against Islamic fundemantalism in the 21st century. Read the Israeli media. Other than once a year on Holocaust Memorial Day there really isn't a lot of discussion about the events of the 1940s.

Except from the pro Palestinian / antizionist folks. They seem to relish bringing out their swastikas and ghetto pictures and mockery of 6 million dead Jews and 4 million other subhumans. There sometimes even seems to be a gleeful kinship with the murderers.

"Go back to Auschwitz" - radio message to the Israeli navy from the freegaza flotilla
 
2013-04-07 05:34:01 PM
Actually, it seems kinda appropriate to me. What better day to protest the Isreali holocaust of Palestinians (whether it's real, or imagined), than holocaust Memorial Day?
 
2013-04-07 05:34:19 PM

ZoeNekros: friday13: Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...

Meh. Even if true it doesn't mean anything. It's Anonymous we're talking about here, an amorphous group with no defined agenda or ideals. Moreover, of people who call themselves "Anonymous", those who would do this are outliers.


Both of these. My outrage meter isn't budging.
 
2013-04-07 05:35:48 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.

Not really. Not since the 1960s.

Soviet Jews were the rallying force of Zionism in the 70s and 80s. Through the 90s it's been about other Jewish communities as well as portraying itself as a buffer against Islamic fundemantalism in the 21st century. Read the Israeli media. Other than once a year on Holocaust Memorial Day there really isn't a lot of discussion about the events of the 1940s.

Except from the pro Palestinian / antizionist folks. They seem to relish bringing out their swastikas and ghetto pictures and mockery of 6 million dead Jews and 4 million other subhumans. There sometimes even seems to be a gleeful kinship with the murderers.

"Go back to Auschwitz" - radio message to the Israeli navy from the freegaza flotilla


I love the word 'seem'. It lets you claim anything you want without accountability. You seem like a child rapist.
 
2013-04-07 05:36:46 PM
Nearly 20 years ago I had a friend who was Jewish and we chatted a bit. She said in defending her government's actions at that time the following quote, which I still remember quite vividly as we were driving in her car around New Jersey:

"How dare they behave like this after everything we've done for those people" (emphasis mine, but it was in the conversational tone at the time)

"You cannot reason with a Palestinian. They are like animals."

"We have given them everything, and it is not enough for them, they are stupid people. They followed Arafat."

She moved to Israel a few years later, and we have since lost touch. Those words though.. "those people." If her views (and she was a very liberal, educated scientist, employed, the works) .. if her views were at all typical... This is never going to be resolved peacefully. It isn't being.
 
2013-04-07 05:38:11 PM

ZoeNekros: an amorphous group with no defined agenda or ideals. Moreover, of people who call themselves "Anonymous", those who would do this are outliers.


lewismarktwo: Well, that's certainly possible, but what people in the media can't seem to comprehend is that anon is not a hierarchical organization.  Hell it's not even an organization.


Precisely.
 
2013-04-07 05:39:20 PM

GreenAdder: ZoeNekros: an amorphous group with no defined agenda or ideals. Moreover, of people who call themselves "Anonymous", those who would do this are outliers.

lewismarktwo: Well, that's certainly possible, but what people in the media can't seem to comprehend is that anon is not a hierarchical organization.  Hell it's not even an organization.

Precisely.


Yeah, but THE HACKER GROUP KNOWN AS ANONYMOUS is so much more of a sexy evil villain outfit than "some guy that is using the name Anonymous and wearing a downloaded Guy Fawkes mask while uploading his youtube video through 7 proxies"
 
2013-04-07 05:40:13 PM

you are a puppet: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.

Not really. Not since the 1960s.

Soviet Jews were the rallying force of Zionism in the 70s and 80s. Through the 90s it's been about other Jewish communities as well as portraying itself as a buffer against Islamic fundemantalism in the 21st century. Read the Israeli media. Other than once a year on Holocaust Memorial Day there really isn't a lot of discussion about the events of the 1940s.

Except from the pro Palestinian / antizionist folks. They seem to relish bringing out their swastikas and ghetto pictures and mockery of 6 million dead Jews and 4 million other subhumans. There sometimes even seems to be a gleeful kinship with the murderers.

"Go back to Auschwitz" - radio message to the Israeli navy from the freegaza flotilla

I love the word 'seem'. It lets you claim anything you want without accountability. You seem like a child rapist.


I like the word "pedantic". It allows you to pick one word from a post and focus on that instead of actually addressing the content.

"You seem pedantic, which I suspect is a cover for your lack of a solid argument"

You tell me - why would freegaza people (NOT antisemites, we are assured!) bring up Auschwitz to the Israeli navy? What possible point of freedom, liberty or independence for the people of Gaza is expressed in that statement except for attacking (they assume) Jews on the point of their Judaism?
 
2013-04-07 05:42:07 PM
Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.
 
2013-04-07 05:42:22 PM

leonel: I think they're specifically targeting Israel the government, not Jews themselves.


Difficulty: the penis-wrinkles at AIPAC and the human garbage in the New American Century group would have people believe that any person who does not give a free pass to any and all actions taken by the Israeli government is by definition a goose-stepping, Hitler-worshiping anti-semite. Likewise, anybody who does not agree with the idea that all the trouble in the Middle East is the fault of the Palestinians and that the Israelis are wholly and entirely blameless is a Neo-Nazi who wants to carve a hundred swastikas onto each and every synagogue in America.

Difficulty #2: there's enough of them in Congress and throughout America that it'll take decades for those ideas to get out of the collective public consciousness.

/see also the political cartoon posted above by Uncle Tractor
 
2013-04-07 05:44:04 PM
BTW...this would be a pretty nifty PsyOps operation to discredit Anonymous and turn public opinion against them...good thing Israel is never known to pay covert operatives and PsyOps experts to discredit their ideological opponents or anything...cuz that'd be turrible...turrible I tell ya...
 
2013-04-07 05:47:14 PM
I'll just place this here...

Israeli Soldier, Yonotan Shapira, Speaks Out against Israel War Crimes (BBC)

I try not take sides on the Israeli Palestinian issue. I find myself looking at the matter as objectively as possible because of my background.  There are times I find myself defending Israel, and other times I find myself sympathizing with the Palestinians.

But one thing I'm certain of, there is extreme bias in the MSM; be it the click-whoring tactics of the Daily Mail Fail or the baloney served by the World News Daily Deli.
 
2013-04-07 05:47:59 PM
I'm not seeing the antisemitism here.
Poorly timed? perhaps. But they're hacking the websites of a government that's done some really shiatty things as of late. If you wanna call that antisemitism, then I gotta say, you're over-playing that card just a wee bit.
 
2013-04-07 05:50:53 PM
stay classy, Jew-baiters.

(show me ONE instance where the folks who like to whine about Palestinians have ever given a rat's ass about Palestinian rights in Lebanon... in Syria where they have been literally being used as cannon fodder... in Egypt where the roads from Gaza are mined... and I'll show you a hallucination because it simply does not happen. Nobody cares, not really; but it sure is jolly fun times to make hysterical accusations of war crimes against tiny, embattled Israel - where rockets are literally landing in the north AND the south now.)

fark you, you know who you are.
 
2013-04-07 05:50:59 PM
Next remind them the Wailing Wall isn't theirs and it has no connection to Judaism.
 
2013-04-07 05:51:48 PM
The Jews are the Chosen People.

Deal with it.
 
2013-04-07 05:52:03 PM

Uncle Tractor: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x480]


Congratulations! I think that's the most straw men I've ever seen in one small box.
 
2013-04-07 05:52:28 PM

fatcurlytoes: stay classy, Jew-baiters.

(show me ONE instance where the folks who like to whine about Palestinians have ever given a rat's ass about Palestinian rights in Lebanon... in Syria where they have been literally being used as cannon fodder... in Egypt where the roads from Gaza are mined... and I'll show you a hallucination because it simply does not happen. Nobody cares, not really; but it sure is jolly fun times to make hysterical accusations of war crimes against tiny, embattled Israel - where rockets are literally landing in the north AND the south now.)

fark you, you know who you are.


I'm glad you are so publicly foolish. It's simple, clear and removes the need to think about you more than absolutely necessary.
 
2013-04-07 05:53:56 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: I'm not seeing the antisemitism here.
Poorly timed? perhaps. But they're hacking the websites of a government that's done some really shiatty things as of late. If you wanna call that antisemitism, then I gotta say, you're over-playing that card just a wee bit.


Like I said, according to them even an iota of discontent with Israel is tantamount to trying to create a Fourth Reich.

/guy with a Guy Fawkes jpeg takes down poster put up by the Israeli government
 
2013-04-07 05:55:33 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: you are a puppet: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.

Not really. Not since the 1960s.

Soviet Jews were the rallying force of Zionism in the 70s and 80s. Through the 90s it's been about other Jewish communities as well as portraying itself as a buffer against Islamic fundemantalism in the 21st century. Read the Israeli media. Other than once a year on Holocaust Memorial Day there really isn't a lot of discussion about the events of the 1940s.

Except from the pro Palestinian / antizionist folks. They seem to relish bringing out their swastikas and ghetto pictures and mockery of 6 million dead Jews and 4 million other subhumans. There sometimes even seems to be a gleeful kinship with the murderers.

"Go back to Auschwitz" - radio message to the Israeli navy from the freegaza flotilla

I love the word 'seem'. It lets you claim anything you want without accountability. You seem like a child rapist.

I like the word "pedantic". It allows you to pick one word from a post and focus on that instead of actually addressing the content.

"You seem pedantic, which I suspect is a cover for your lack of a solid argument"

You tell me - why would freegaza people (NOT antisemites, we are assured!) bring up Auschwitz to the Israeli navy? What possible point of freedom, liberty or independence for the people of Gaza is expressed in that statement except for attacking (they assume) Jews on the point of their Judaism?


It seems like you picked one event and focused on that and then used it to describe 'pro Palestinian /antizionist folks' as a whole.

"That's pedantic, which sounds like pedophiliac, which is what you seem to be"
 
2013-04-07 05:56:33 PM
iron lion zion
 
2013-04-07 05:56:36 PM

Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.


But black folks still use slavery to this day...
 
2013-04-07 05:56:59 PM

letrole: The Jews are the Chosen People.

Deal with it.


The meek shall inherit the Earth. That's gotta be Iceland.
 
2013-04-07 05:57:07 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-07 05:57:58 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: why would freegaza people (NOT antisemites, we are assured!) bring up Auschwitz to the Israeli navy?


Why would a normal person believe they did that?
 
2013-04-07 05:59:44 PM
"The Holocaust" as mass/pop media depict it, is on par with Star Wars as one of the greatest pieces of fiction of the 20th century.
 
2013-04-07 06:00:24 PM
When did anti-semitism only apply to Jews?  Israel's government is just as anti-semitic and racist towards Arabs and Blacks.  I'm convinced they are the 21st century moral equivalent of Nazis.  And, just like the US warmly embraced Hitler and the Nazi party pre-WWII, look where we are, supporting a state guilty of doing the same shiat we fought against.

Yet it's OK if Israel creates Stuxnet which has done an incredible amount of damage yet "woe is them" if they get a taste of the shiat they dished out? 

Israel is a terrorist state that needs to be overthrown, and Netanyahu should meet the same fate as Saddam. If there were a US war against Israel I'd enlist tomorrow.
 
2013-04-07 06:00:53 PM
Considering that a number of Palestinians and their leaders have vowed to "wipe Jews off of the face of the Earth", I have to side with Israel on this one.
 
2013-04-07 06:04:08 PM

sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.


When the government supports your actions you are a privateer and not a pirate.

/אררר
 
2013-04-07 06:06:38 PM

you are a puppet: It seems like you picked one event and focused on that and then used it to describe 'pro Palestinian /antizionist folks' as a whole.


One event?

You live in fantasy land.

Google:  Greta Berlin Holocaust Denial

She's a leader in the movement.  The rest of the movement tripped all over themselves to dismiss the reality of her "ooops I showed my true thoughts" moment.  The few (mostly actual Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank) who slammed her and said her brand of European Jew hating had no place in the Anti-Zionist movement were criticized and told that they were hurting their cause by showing cracks in what should be portrayed as a united front.

I'm hardly a likudlik.  I'm a strong supporter of a two-state solution.  I think the Israeli hardliners (especially the ones led by voices from god) are farkin' whackjobs.  What does all this have to do with the holocaust and my relatives being slaughtered?  NOTHING.  So why do the anti-israeli peeps keep bringing it up?  Because they know it hurts.  And since i"m not a hard-core "river to the sea" supporter of their cause they don't care that it hurts me.  They don't care who they hurt.  As I said...there seems to almost be an element of glee in it sometimes.

In the long-term, however, it hurts their own cause to focus on Judaism and the pains of the 1940s instead of on freedom for the Palestinians.
 
2013-04-07 06:06:40 PM

Lee451: Considering that a number of Palestinians and their leaders have vowed to "wipe Jews off of the face of the Earth", I have to side with Israel on this one.


So if I were a Native American and I'm going to take my land back from you, bulldoze your house and rape/murder/jail your family, you had better not ever say you wish to wipe Natives off the face of the earth or that'd make you a giant farking hypocrite.
 
2013-04-07 06:09:36 PM

GreenAdder: That's the thing about Anonymous. It isn't a singular group.

"Anonymous" is a name that any person or group can adopt when it suits their needs. Anyone can download a picture of a Guy Fawkes mask. Anyone can engage in "hacktivism" on the Internet and use the name "Anonymous." Anyone with half a brain can make a spooky video with a computerized voice reading a communique "from Anonymous."

This means the anons who protested WBC and Scientology might not be the same anons hacking Israeli websites. Or maybe some of them are. I honestly don't know.

Whenever I see Anonymous referred to as a "group," I see a reporter who doesn't understand the concept.


i141.photobucket.com

Came in to say that myself. Anonymous is not a specific group of people. It's whoever is anonymous at the moment. Their are many different anonymous and they don't all agree with one another. And there is no "leadership" of anonymous. It's an amorphous group of whoever. More of a concept then a club.
 
2013-04-07 06:10:09 PM

sheep snorter: Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.


This is why today is Holocaust Memorial Day. Because what Hitler did to the Jews, is not being done to the Arabs. Dozens of thousands of Arabs have been killed by Jews (and most of those were not civilians, if that matters to you) in the course of dozens of years of war. At no point have even one percent of the Arabs been murdered by Jews, let alone two thirds, in a nearly successful attempt to eliminate them all. When you make absurd comparisons like this, it makes it hard to take you seriously. Surely you have reasonable things to say---don't make reasonable people ignore you by making gross misstatements...
 
2013-04-07 06:10:56 PM

jaytkay: Bill_Wick's_Friend: why would freegaza people (NOT antisemites, we are assured!) bring up Auschwitz to the Israeli navy?

Why would a normal person believe they did that?


As a contrast and comparison, Archer said "Meowschwitz" when he saw how Tunt treated her Ocelot.  Who was well fed.  And didn't undergo medical experiments.  That we know of.  But she did restrict him to an increasing small space in her house and didn't give him anything to play with.  How could a normal person do that to their ocelet?

Now imagine that ocelot is occupying a portion of territory that you consider "your God given country".  Which God gave to you.  Because he totally did.  No matter how much you love that cat, it will have to go.  Because it's making the whole house smell like ocelot piss.
 
2013-04-07 06:11:19 PM
When the government supports your actions you are a privateer and not a pirate.

/אררר

for those who don't understand this, this is pretty funny, the characters next to the slash is...lets just say they are a pirate's favorite letter.
 
2013-04-07 06:12:16 PM

mongbiohazard: GreenAdder: That's the thing about Anonymous. It isn't a singular group.

"Anonymous" is a name that any person or group can adopt when it suits their needs. Anyone can download a picture of a Guy Fawkes mask. Anyone can engage in "hacktivism" on the Internet and use the name "Anonymous." Anyone with half a brain can make a spooky video with a computerized voice reading a communique "from Anonymous."

This means the anons who protested WBC and Scientology might not be the same anons hacking Israeli websites. Or maybe some of them are. I honestly don't know.

Whenever I see Anonymous referred to as a "group," I see a reporter who doesn't understand the concept.



Came in to say that myself. Anonymous is not a specific group of people. It's whoever is anonymous at the moment. Their are many different anonymous and they don't all agree with one another. And there is no "leadership" of anonymous. It's an amorphous group of whoever. More of a concept then a club.


Why have a specific name for it then?
 
2013-04-07 06:12:27 PM
Israel is equivalent to the little bastard in high school who got away with everything because they were the son/daughter of a teacher or the principal.

Israel is committing warcrimes and the Zionists need to eat sh** and die. Palestine is full of refugees and lunatics who want to provoke the situation more.

Israel needs to give up on the damn settlements issue. Draw the lines according to the 1947 treaty, declare Jerusalem as a neutral zone, and make it clear that if any settlements go up outside of the boundaries, the US stops funding and military protection right there. Palestine also needs to be told that aid will be available for rebuilding, but any attacks that come from Palestine means a sacrifice of the building that the attack came from (if a local terror cell shoots a rocket from a hospital, the hospital is now a military target).

It sure as hell wouldn't stop the problem completely, but it would be a damn good start.
 
2013-04-07 06:13:42 PM
One person's Terrorist  is another person's Freedom Fighter


/stop playing the victim
//stop building illegal settlement
///Stop denying the Palestinian's a home state
 
2013-04-07 06:13:51 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: mongbiohazard: GreenAdder: That's the thing about Anonymous. It isn't a singular group.

"Anonymous" is a name that any person or group can adopt when it suits their needs. Anyone can download a picture of a Guy Fawkes mask. Anyone can engage in "hacktivism" on the Internet and use the name "Anonymous." Anyone with half a brain can make a spooky video with a computerized voice reading a communique "from Anonymous."

This means the anons who protested WBC and Scientology might not be the same anons hacking Israeli websites. Or maybe some of them are. I honestly don't know.

Whenever I see Anonymous referred to as a "group," I see a reporter who doesn't understand the concept.

Came in to say that myself. Anonymous is not a specific group of people. It's whoever is anonymous at the moment. Their are many different anonymous and they don't all agree with one another. And there is no "leadership" of anonymous. It's an amorphous group of whoever. More of a concept then a club.

Why have a specific name for it then?


Because the idea of structure lends power.
 
2013-04-07 06:15:14 PM
From the very first line:

The global hacking group Anonymous launched a cyber attack against Israeli government websites in a web protest on the country's annual Holocaust memorial day.
 
2013-04-07 06:15:31 PM
We should all sit around and cry over the plight of the poor innocent peace loving Israelis.

Anyone who doesn't is obviously a racist and an anti-Semite.
 
2013-04-07 06:15:55 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Why have a specific name for it then?


ReverendJynxed: Because the idea of structure lends power


Right. It's kind of like creating an Internet bogeyman. "Don't censor the Internet," parents will tell their kids as they put them to bed, "or Anonymous will get you."
 
2013-04-07 06:16:21 PM
The hack could be one 15 year old from his basement.
 
2013-04-07 06:16:49 PM

proteus_b: Dozens of thousands of Arabs have been killed by Jews (and most of those were not civilians, if that matters to you)


It seems to matter to you to justify your bloodlust.

proteus_b: At no point have even one percent of the Arabs been murdered by Jews, let alone two thirds,


It took 3,000 Americans, .00001% of the US population to justify war with multiple countries that has been going on for 12 years.  Your argument is ridiculous.
 
2013-04-07 06:16:52 PM
mypetjawa.mu.nu
 
2013-04-07 06:21:56 PM
Some folks in Gaza celebrated Holocaust Memorial Day in their customary manner: By firing a few rockets into southern Israel.
 
2013-04-07 06:23:54 PM

detritus: When did anti-semitism only apply to Jews?


The word was coined by a German jew-hater who felt that the noun "Judenhaas" wasn't genteel enough to be used by sophisticated German jew-hating society types.   In spite of the fact that it contains the root word "semite", it has always meant "jew hating".

(also a seagull on lake michigan is still a seagull even though it's 2000 miles from the sea)
(also the democratic people's republic of korea isn't really a democracy)

/the more you know
 
2013-04-07 06:25:30 PM
So does "holocaust memorial day" celebrate all holocausts or just the Nazi one? If so, does it commemorate the millions of Slavs, socialists, gypsies, mentally ill, gay and disabled people who were murdered? Nope, just the Jews.
 
2013-04-07 06:26:15 PM

leonel: I think they're specifically targeting Israel the government, not Jews themselves.


NO! If you take one, you MUST take the other! No exceptions! If you don't back Israel 100%, you're a Hitler-loving skinhead anti-Semite!
 
2013-04-07 06:26:17 PM

detritus: It took 3,000 Americans, .00001% of the US population to justify war with multiple countries that has been going on for 12 years. Your argument is ridiculous.


Yes, America can kill millions and it's somehow acceptable. But if a Jew does it, they are forever damned.

Maybe people who think that anyone who's not a red-blooded indian should be allowed to live in the territory currently occupied by the USA should "eat shiat and die".
 
2013-04-07 06:30:03 PM

sheep snorter: Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa)


Actually, Hitler and the Nazis spent a LOT of resources staying on the good side of the Arab world for some reason (probably the same reason we're buddy-buddy...ish with Saudi Arabia: oil), to the point that they were careful to not use the term "semite" and its derivatives.  Sending the Jews to ANYWHERE Africa (except maybe southern Africa, but IIRC that was an Allies territory) would've pissed off the Muslims, so they wouldn't have done that.
 
2013-04-07 06:31:00 PM

letrole: [mypetjawa.mu.nu image 438x310]


www.dangerouscreation.com
 
2013-04-07 06:34:34 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "The Holocaust" as mass/pop media depict it, is on par with Star Wars as one of the greatest pieces of fiction of the 20th century.


Stormfront is that way ----------->
 
2013-04-07 06:34:53 PM
p.twimg.com
Jewish settlers confront an elderly Palestinian as she
is evicted from her home
 
2013-04-07 06:35:44 PM

friday13: Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...


Kosher salt?
 
2013-04-07 06:37:10 PM

Lehk: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "The Holocaust" as mass/pop media depict it, is on par with Star Wars as one of the greatest pieces of fiction of the 20th century.

Stormfront is that way ----------->


Cute
 
2013-04-07 06:44:25 PM
The worst part about Israel is the way the Israelis are always strapping explosives to themselves and running into peaceful Arab cafes and blowing all the innocent Arabs to smithereens.

Oh wait...
 
2013-04-07 06:44:40 PM

Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.



You are a douchebag.

The 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis didn't do anything to destabilize the Middle East.

Pick a different day to protest.
 
2013-04-07 06:44:56 PM

SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.


While you are correct, you are a douche for calling people who believe israel has the right to exist "suck"-y.
 
2013-04-07 06:47:19 PM

jaytkay: [p.twimg.com image 480x328]
Jewish settlers confront an elderly Palestinian as she
is evicted from her home


Looks more like Brooklyn when somebody's grandmother asked him to take out the trash.

Meanwhile, in Gaza, Hamas is having men arrested and beaten for "immodest haircuts" and baggy pants.
 
2013-04-07 06:50:30 PM

sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).


Wow.
 
2013-04-07 06:50:40 PM

SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.


What do you think Zionist means? like a one or two line definition of the term
 
2013-04-07 06:50:43 PM
You know who ELSE liked to hack Jews?
 
2013-04-07 06:51:23 PM
Whelp, this thread is pretty much irredeemable...

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-04-07 06:52:35 PM
Could be some college kids getting some lulz.
Could be psyops by Mossad.
Could be subversion by Stormfront types.

That's the thing about Anonymous. They're, well, Anonymous. Until they're busted.

Meanwhile, everyone still has their sides, so I'll abandon the thread to the tribe war already in progress.
 
2013-04-07 06:52:38 PM

leonel: I think they're specifically targeting Israel the government, not Jews themselves.


The Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial was among those targeted
 
2013-04-07 06:52:46 PM
Do you recognize the right of a Jewish state to exist in some capacity in the Middle East?

Congratulations, you're a Zionist. The above statement is all that "Zionism" means. I'd say 90% of the world -- even Farkers -- are Zionists.

Of course, there is a spectrum within Zionism. Some nationalist right-wing Israelis (religious or not) want all of the land "from the river to the sea," and various left-wing Israelis (religious or now) want a two-state agreement based on the 1967 cease-fire lines with Jordan. And there are Zionists all in between and more.

So, please, don't equate "Zionist" with some "right-wing, Likudnik" conspiracy to use the banks and the media to commit genocide. The word does not mean what you probably think it means. There is an ongoing debate even here in Israel.

/American Israeli in Tel Aviv
//Watched Holocaust Remembrance Day on TV
 
2013-04-07 06:53:58 PM

Kriggerel: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Indeed. And like I've said many times before, Israeli Apartheid Week has done more to promote and popularise anti-semitism than any cultural phenomenon since the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.



Zionist apartheid practices cause anti-Semitism?

That must really piss the non-Zionist Jews off.
 
2013-04-07 06:55:13 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: (also a seagull on lake michigan is still a seagull even though it's 2000 miles from the sea)


Actually, no, it isn't. Neither is the same bird flying over the ocean. If you check a field guide to birds, you'll see that there no such thing as a "seagull". You'll see entries for herring gulls, ring-billed gulls, laughing gulls, black-backed gulls, and dozens of other species of gulls, but no "seagulls". It's a colloquial word for anything that looks like a gull, tern, etc., and has no more real meaning than "critter".

/why yes, I am a bird geek
//not the snooty kind though
///they are their own well-deserved punishment
 
2013-04-07 06:57:34 PM
Both of the two Israeli Jews I have met emigrated to Canada due to the actions of the Iraeli government. The majority of non-Israeli Jews I have met don't support Israel, some even openly expressing their embarrassment that Judaism even has a connection to the Israeli government.
 
2013-04-07 06:59:11 PM

austin_millbarge: Or its a false flag by western intelligence to drum up hatred for anon.



If so, it would also drum up sympathy for the Zionist State - so it would be a two-fer!
 
2013-04-07 06:59:45 PM

xen0blue: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

While you are correct, you are a douche for calling people who believe israel has the right to exist "suck"-y.


I fully believe that Israel has a right to exist.  I also fully believe that in existing where and how it does today, it tramples on the rights of the Palestinian people.  If Israel and the Palestinians can find a peaceful middle ground and establish two states that allow each other to exist without violence and evil perpetrated towards each other, then I have ZERO problem with either group.  As it stands right now, Israel happens to bear most of the responsibility for fixing this issue, yet they refuse and provoke at every turn.
 
2013-04-07 07:01:18 PM

Hongcouver: Both of the two Israeli Jews I have met emigrated to Canada due to the actions of the Iraeli government. The majority of non-Israeli Jews I have met don't support Israel, some even openly expressing their embarrassment that Judaism even has a connection to the Israeli government.


No offense, but that's not a representative sample on which to base anything.

Still, people (rightly or wrongly) form opinions based on the information at hand. If I meet only two Indians (dot, not feather, sorry) in my entire life, then my perception of India will be comprised primarily of my interaction with them.

I could introduce you to 2,000 Israeli Jews (or American Jews) who would disagree with the ones you met. Israel is like the United States -- a 52% to 48% divide or thereabouts.

/Just saying...
 
2013-04-07 07:01:23 PM
The two sides are Israel and a group of people who want them dead at any price and will never, ever, accept peace. Hamas will never under any circumstance accept anything short of the complete destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew in it. When the position is "we're going to kill every single solitary one of you and will stop at absolutely nothing to do it" where do you begin the process? Does it start with something like "Could you maybe only kill 80% of us?"

There is no concession Israel can make that would satisfy them. Wave around the '1967' border all you want and if Israel gave up completely on that point all that it would accomplish is giving people new places to fire rockets from... Just like what happened when Israel left Gaza. What did that accomplish? The Palestinians put Hamas in charge and celebrated with new rocket attacks. It is not in the interest of Israel for this to continue but it is in the interest of Israel's enemies that it continues, which is why it does continue.
 
2013-04-07 07:04:14 PM

GreenAdder: That's the thing about Anonymous. It isn't a singular group.

"Anonymous" is a name that any person or group can adopt when it suits their needs. Anyone can download a picture of a Guy Fawkes mask. Anyone can engage in "hacktivism" on the Internet and use the name "Anonymous." Anyone with half a brain can make a spooky video with a computerized voice reading a communique "from Anonymous."


Yep.

Even Israelis.
 
2013-04-07 07:04:17 PM

Worldwalker: Actually, no, it isn't. Neither is the same bird flying over the ocean. If you check a field guide to birds, you'll see that there no such thing as a "seagull". You'll see entries for herring gulls, ring-billed gulls, laughing gulls, black-backed gulls, and dozens of other species of gulls, but no "seagulls". It's a colloquial word for anything that looks like a gull, tern, etc., and has no more real meaning than "critter"


I had no idea.  I've lived on the shores of the great lakes and on the Pacific Ocean and I've seen the Atlantic from both sides. It never occurred to me that the gulls here and the gulls there were not the same species of garbage-eating filthy-feathered rat birds. I appreciate the correction.  I like the idea of being able to recognize different gull species as I travel.

/the more I know!
/off to wikipedia and allaboutbirds.org!
/thank you, masked stranger
 
2013-04-07 07:04:22 PM

SubBass49: xen0blue: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

While you are correct, you are a douche for calling people who believe israel has the right to exist "suck"-y.

I fully believe that Israel has a right to exist.  I also fully believe that in existing where and how it does today, it tramples on the rights of the Palestinian people.  If Israel and the Palestinians can find a peaceful middle ground and establish two states that allow each other to exist without violence and evil perpetrated towards each other, then I have ZERO problem with either group.  As it stands right now, Israel happens to bear most of the responsibility for fixing this issue, yet they refuse and provoke at every turn.


The majority of Israelis support a two state solution. The majority of Palestinians do not. Care to rephrase?
 
2013-04-07 07:04:48 PM

zedster: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

What do you think Zionist means? like a one or two line definition of the term


Zionism: Jewish nationalist movement that asserts exclusive rights to the land of Israel without question.  It's methods are colonialist and racist in nature, as they assert the land formerly know as Palestine for an exclusively Jewish-run state.

Does that help?

Zionists do not equal Jews in the same way that Tea Party folks don't equal Americans.
 
2013-04-07 07:05:18 PM

SubBass49: zedster: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

What do you think Zionist means? like a one or two line definition of the term

Zionism: Jewish nationalist movement that asserts exclusive rights to the land of Israel without question.  It's methods are colonialist and racist in nature, as they assert the land formerly know as Palestine for an exclusively Jewish-run state.

Does that help?

Zionists do not equal Jews in the same way that Tea Party folks don't equal Americans.


It does on fark.
 
2013-04-07 07:06:58 PM

owlie: SubBass49: xen0blue: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

While you are correct, you are a douche for calling people who believe israel has the right to exist "suck"-y.

I fully believe that Israel has a right to exist.  I also fully believe that in existing where and how it does today, it tramples on the rights of the Palestinian people.  If Israel and the Palestinians can find a peaceful middle ground and establish two states that allow each other to exist without violence and evil perpetrated towards each other, then I have ZERO problem with either group.  As it stands right now, Israel happens to bear most of the responsibility for fixing this issue, yet they refuse and provoke at every turn.

The majority of Israelis support a two state solution. The majority of Palestinians do not. Care to rephrase?


Israel in my argument is defined as the state of Israel (read: leadership), not the populace.  Sure, there are people within Israel that want a 2-state solution, but the government pushes settlements as political punishment for seeking UN recognition.  Not exactly peace-making moves there, champ.
 
2013-04-07 07:07:01 PM
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/browse_tax/35/

Guide to gulls, terns and skimmers

/ornithological threadjack
 
2013-04-07 07:08:38 PM
Whenever one hears "The Jews are being targeted/abused/etc", the first thing to check is if the report is an actual credible report or if it is Likud or some think tank that aligns with Likud playing the victim card/spouting bullshiat.
 
2013-04-07 07:10:42 PM
James Baldwin once observed that one lens with which to describe German persecution of European Jews was as a "Master Race" and "Chosen People". It's in a book about a serial killer of Black children in Atlanta and examines St. Augustine's definition of Faith.

Is that pin that's just dropped.

I think for a culture to value its own heritage above a nationalistic esteem (and its tax base) is a pretty ancient puzzle. Jesus was a Jew none to happy with Roman rule.

Same as it ever was.
 
2013-04-07 07:11:31 PM

sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp
with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.


You are a retard.

Literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc has improved for palestenians, yet you are dumb or dishonest enough to compare it to concentration camps...
 
2013-04-07 07:13:10 PM

liam76: sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.

You are a retard.

Literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc has improved for palestenians, yet you are dumb or dishonest enough to compare it to concentration camps...


The same can be said about Tibetans.

That doesn't mean the ChiComs shouldn't clean up their act.
 
2013-04-07 07:14:52 PM

SubBass49: owlie: SubBass49: xen0blue: SubBass49: Zionists =/= Jews

Some Jews = Zionists
Some Jews =/= Zionists

Zionists suck.

Jews that are not Zionists are usually pretty cool (though open to random assholes just like any other ethnic group on the face of the earth)

Anonymous seems to dislike Zionists, not Jews.

While you are correct, you are a douche for calling people who believe israel has the right to exist "suck"-y.

I fully believe that Israel has a right to exist.  I also fully believe that in existing where and how it does today, it tramples on the rights of the Palestinian people.  If Israel and the Palestinians can find a peaceful middle ground and establish two states that allow each other to exist without violence and evil perpetrated towards each other, then I have ZERO problem with either group.  As it stands right now, Israel happens to bear most of the responsibility for fixing this issue, yet they refuse and provoke at every turn.

The majority of Israelis support a two state solution. The majority of Palestinians do not. Care to rephrase?

Israel in my argument is defined as the state of Israel (read: leadership), not the populace.  Sure, there are people within Israel that want a 2-state solution, but the government pushes settlements as political punishment for seeking UN recognition.  Not exactly peace-making moves there, champ.


Pushing for UN recognition had nothing to do with wanting to sit down and talk about a two-state solution. Israel (or Israeli leadership or whatever you choose to call) is more than happy to have that discussion, but the leadership on the Palestinian side is not interested. The Palestinians are holding out for all or nothing, and until they recognize the legitimacy of Israel (in ANY capacity) and reciprocate in that conversation, all or nothing is all they can reasonably expect.
 
2013-04-07 07:15:22 PM
Anonymous will always be attacked and ridiculed by the media just as "Occupy" was attacked and ridiculed by the media. Go against the "powers that be" and you'll be attacked and ridiculed too. AND most people will always fall for the propaganda. But, that's alright. Go back to eating your GMO food now.
 
2013-04-07 07:15:30 PM
Anything that screws up the israelis is fine with me since the are the world's greatest terrorist organization
 
2013-04-07 07:16:43 PM

detritus: Lee451: Considering that a number of Palestinians and their leaders have vowed to "wipe Jews off of the face of the Earth", I have to side with Israel on this one.

So if I were a Native American and I'm going to take my land back from you, bulldoze your house and rape/murder/jail your family, you had better not ever say you wish to wipe Natives off the face of the earth or that'd make you a giant farking hypocrite.


I am a Native American (meaning I was born here) and part Powhatan Indian. What is your point?
 
2013-04-07 07:19:43 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/browse_tax/35/

Guide to gulls, terns and skimmers

/ornithological threadjack


img687.imageshack.us
Ornithology you say?

/proper threadjack
 
2013-04-07 07:20:50 PM

sheep snorter: Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.



It's generally a bad sign when people refer to a particular opinion or political position as "the truth."

And the asserting preëmptively that anyone who disagrees with you is is ignorant and "retarded" for bonus points.  That's classy.
 
2013-04-07 07:21:16 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "The Holocaust" as mass/pop media depict it, is on par with Star Wars as one of the greatest pieces of fiction of the 20th century.



To me, the most puzzling part about the Holocaust is no one seems to have any idea why the Germans and the Jews might have had animosity toward one another.

/Crazy
 
2013-04-07 07:21:55 PM

ciberido: That's classy.


This whole thread is classy.
 
2013-04-07 07:25:50 PM

Mr. Breeze: Uncle Tractor: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x480]

Congratulations! I think that's the most straw men I've ever seen in one small box.



I think that was one of those Poe's Law kind of situations where I can't be sure whether Uncle Tractor was trying to say, "Look how stupid these people are" or "Look how stupid I am."
 
2013-04-07 07:26:16 PM

owlie: Pushing for UN recognition had nothing to do with wanting to sit down and talk about a two-state solution. Israel (or Israeli leadership or whatever you choose to call) is more than happy to have that discussion, but the leadership on the Palestinian side is not interested. The Palestinians are holding out for all or nothing, and until they recognize the legitimacy of Israel (in ANY capacity) and reciprocate in that conversation, all or nothing is all they can reasonably expect.


Mmmm...hmmmm....

You sure seem to know a lot about what the Palestinians "really" want, don't ya champ?  Meanwhile, we can see through the actions of the Israeli government EXACTLY what they want, which is the complete subjugation and control of any Palestinian people living with "their" borders.

Terrorist came from your neighborhood?  Sorry pal, but we're bulldozing your home.
Want to come work for higher wages outside the concentration zone?  Fine, stand in this line and be harassed and humiliated for a few hours.
Want to live freely in your own homeland?  Sorry buddy, that's a right we only reserve for our OWN people.  You're not worthy.
By the way, meet your new neighbors...they're going to be living in what used to be your family's olive grove...and they hate you.  Enjoy that.
 
2013-04-07 07:26:29 PM
Here is my honest question: If Israel would withdraw to the 1967 cease-fire lines with Jordan to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state, who thinks all terrorism, rockets, and attacks on Israel would then stop?
 
2013-04-07 07:26:36 PM

super_grass: liam76: sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.

You are a retard.

Literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc has improved for palestenians, yet you are dumb or dishonest enough to compare it to concentration camps...

The same can be said about Tibetans.

That doesn't mean the ChiComs shouldn't clean up their act.


I have no problem saying they should 'clean up their act' but when people toss out genocude, concentration camps or nazis they are going beyond calls for cleaning their act up. They are just lying about the situation, and I can't think of reason aside from antisemitism to do that.
 
2013-04-07 07:28:16 PM

Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.


You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East? Or the fact that you would probably be abducted and murdered in most other middle eastern countries?
 
2013-04-07 07:29:32 PM

proteus_b: sheep snorter: Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.

This is why today is Holocaust Memorial Day. Because what Hitler did to the Jews, is not being done to the Arabs. Dozens of thousands of Arabs have been killed by Jews (and most of those were not civilians, if that matters to you) in the course of dozens of years of war. At no point have even one percent of the Arabs been murdered by Jews, let alone two thirds, in a nearly successful attempt to eliminate them all. When you make absurd comparisons like this, it makes it hard to take you seriously. Surely you have reasonable things to say---don't make reasonable people ignore you by making gross misstatements...



I happened to notice that sheep snorter used the phrases "Israel" and "Palestine and its people", and that in your response you chose (repeatedly) to use the words "Jews" and "Arabs".

Why is that, proteus_b?
 
2013-04-07 07:30:33 PM
Anyone can do anything in the name of Anonymous. That's why it's called Anonymous. Moving beyond that I think we can all agree that both Israel and Palestine act like total dicks but one side is launching homemade rockets while the other is using the latest military technology they can get from the U.S. It's not a fair fight and Israels settlement expansions are just a big fark you to the peace process. Who gives a shiat if some imaginary guy in a book said you could have this land. THERE ARE ALREADY PEOPLE THERE!
 
2013-04-07 07:30:42 PM
This is all too confusing.

Yom haShoah is observed on many different days in different countries.  Wikipedia sez that the Holocaust observance in Israel is really near December since the month closest to April is not supposed to have sadness commemorated.   In fact it may be difficult to find one local memorial service.

Westboro Baptist is basically a professional troll law firm going after damages against over-reactors for money.  Anonymous could probably drain entire banking industries very quickly if money were the motive.

According to Wikipedia, the day celebrates the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is right up there with the Alamo and all those other group heroic efforts against an overwhelming deadly force.

DailyFail is really just a picture book.
 
2013-04-07 07:30:46 PM

Richard C Stanford: Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.

You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East? Or the fact that you would probably be abducted and murdered in most other middle eastern countries?


Well gorsh...in that case, carry on.  Lord knows that if they're better than a murderous and hateful dictatorship, they must be perfect!  Let's leave well enough alone!
 
2013-04-07 07:32:13 PM

bostonguy: Here is my honest question: If Israel would withdraw to the 1967 cease-fire lines with Jordan to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state, who thinks all terrorism, rockets, and attacks on Israel would then stop?


If it actually did stop, they'd fake some more things.

Not to single them out as the only country that would do that, though. It's a pretty common practice these days.
 
2013-04-07 07:32:30 PM

detritus: When did anti-semitism only apply to Jews?



Since about 1881.

If you want to talk about bigotry against Arabs or other Semitic peoples, I'm afraid you're stuck with the more general term "racism."
 
2013-04-07 07:32:57 PM

flamingboard: It's not a fair fight


Is that a problem though? I don't support any side of that whole clusterfark, but I know that if Hamas had attack helicopters, tanks and F15s things would go from bad to Armageddony real quick.
 
2013-04-07 07:33:01 PM

Amos Quito: proteus_b: sheep snorter: Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.

This is why today is Holocaust Memorial Day. Because what Hitler did to the Jews, is not being done to the Arabs. Dozens of thousands of Arabs have been killed by Jews (and most of those were not civilians, if that matters to you) in the course of dozens of years of war. At no point have even one percent of the Arabs been murdered by Jews, let alone two thirds, in a nearly successful attempt to eliminate them all. When you make absurd comparisons like this, it makes it hard to take you seriously. Surely you have reasonable things to say---don't make reasonable people ignore you by making gross misstatements...


I happened to notice that sheep snorter used the phrases "Israel" and "Palestine and its people", and that in your response you chose (repeatedly) to use the words "Jews" and "Arabs".

Why is that, proteus_b?


Because geography is a lot harder when the term "Arab" is applied only to people with ancestry from the Arabian peninsula rather than as a generalized term for darkies.
 
2013-04-07 07:38:41 PM
i141.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-07 07:39:05 PM

reaperducer: The worst part about Israel is the way the Israelis are always strapping explosives to themselves and running into peaceful Arab cafes and blowing all the innocent Arabs to smithereens.

Oh wait...


You're right.  They prefer missiles and tanks these days.
 
2013-04-07 07:40:10 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Israel is equivalent to the little bastard in high school who got away with everything because they were the son/daughter of a teacher or the principal.

Israel is committing warcrimes and the Zionists need to eat sh** and die. Palestine is full of refugees and lunatics who want to provoke the situation more.

Israel needs to give up on the damn settlements issue. Draw the lines according to the 1947 treaty, declare Jerusalem as a neutral zone, and make it clear that if any settlements go up outside of the boundaries, the US stops funding and military protection right there. Palestine also needs to be told that aid will be available for rebuilding, but any attacks that come from Palestine means a sacrifice of the building that the attack came from (if a local terror cell shoots a rocket from a hospital, the hospital is now a military target).

It sure as hell wouldn't stop the problem completely, but it would be a damn good start.


You know what, lets just move Israel someplace else. I mean, for God's sake, why is that area even worth fighting for? It's a bombed out wasteland that has nothing of real value. So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck? Palestinians get to have their crappy desert back and the Jews can live in a place that isn't a barren desert.
/Of course it would probably be two days before some jihadist declares that New Israel is located on "Holy Islamic Ground" and this whole shiate storm gets started again.
 
2013-04-07 07:40:16 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: you are a puppet: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Lehk: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.

Not really. Not since the 1960s.

Soviet Jews were the rallying force of Zionism in the 70s and 80s. Through the 90s it's been about other Jewish communities as well as portraying itself as a buffer against Islamic fundemantalism in the 21st century. Read the Israeli media. Other than once a year on Holocaust Memorial Day there really isn't a lot of discussion about the events of the 1940s.

Except from the pro Palestinian / antizionist folks. They seem to relish bringing out their swastikas and ghetto pictures and mockery of 6 million dead Jews and 4 million other subhumans. There sometimes even seems to be a gleeful kinship with the murderers.

"Go back to Auschwitz" - radio message to the Israeli navy from the freegaza flotilla

I love the word 'seem'. It lets you claim anything you want without accountability. You seem like a child rapist.

I like the word "pedantic". It allows you to pick one word from a post and focus on that instead of actually addressing the content.

"You seem pedantic, which I suspect is a cover for your lack of a solid argument"

You tell me - why would freegaza people (NOT antisemites, we are assured!) bring up Auschwitz to the Israeli navy? What possible point of freedom, liberty or independence for the people of Gaza is expressed in that statement except for attacking (they assume) Jews on the point of their Judaism?


Perhaps it has to do with the blockading of Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.
I know, I know, it's outside agitators..it always is.

If you wish to know why they threw out that insult, perhaps you should look within.

It's sorta like the ignorant patriotic FARK Independenttm in America continue to insist that they hate us for our freedoms....
 
2013-04-07 07:40:52 PM

proteus_b: detritus: It took 3,000 Americans, .00001% of the US population to justify war with multiple countries that has been going on for 12 years. Your argument is ridiculous.

Yes, America can kill millions and it's somehow acceptable. But if a Jew does it, they are forever damned.

Maybe people who think that anyone who's not a red-blooded indian should be allowed to live in the territory currently occupied by the USA should "eat shiat and die".



Ah yes, here we are again. "YOU DID BAD SHIAT HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO SO YOU HAVE NO ROOM TO TALK ABOUT THE BAD SHIIAT WE'RE DOING TODAY - AND PLANNING FOR TOMORROW! NEYH!"

Well, tell you what, bubs, I've read the Torah - and the list of cruel, heartless wanton GENOCIDES proudly committed by the Jews against their neighbors is endless.

If today's atrocities are justified by yesterday's atrocities, Israel is long overdue for a shiat storm, pal.
 
2013-04-07 07:42:20 PM
And I thought Fark was going soft.
 
2013-04-07 07:43:31 PM
But jewish seagulls, amirite?
i50.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-07 07:43:38 PM

Richard C Stanford: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Israel is equivalent to the little bastard in high school who got away with everything because they were the son/daughter of a teacher or the principal.

Israel is committing warcrimes and the Zionists need to eat sh** and die. Palestine is full of refugees and lunatics who want to provoke the situation more.

Israel needs to give up on the damn settlements issue. Draw the lines according to the 1947 treaty, declare Jerusalem as a neutral zone, and make it clear that if any settlements go up outside of the boundaries, the US stops funding and military protection right there. Palestine also needs to be told that aid will be available for rebuilding, but any attacks that come from Palestine means a sacrifice of the building that the attack came from (if a local terror cell shoots a rocket from a hospital, the hospital is now a military target).

It sure as hell wouldn't stop the problem completely, but it would be a damn good start.

You know what, lets just move Israel someplace else. I mean, for God's sake, why is that area even worth fighting for? It's a bombed out wasteland that has nothing of real value. So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck? Palestinians get to have their crappy desert back and the Jews can live in a place that isn't a barren desert.
/Of course it would probably be two days before some jihadist declares that New Israel is located on "Holy Islamic Ground" and this whole shiate storm gets started again.


Like Madagascar?
 
2013-04-07 07:43:44 PM

Richard C Stanford: You know what, lets just move Israel someplace else. I mean, for God's sake, why is that area even worth fighting for? It's a bombed out wasteland that has nothing of real value. So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck? Palestinians get to have their crappy desert back and the Jews can live in a place that isn't a barren desert.
/Of course it would probably be two days before some jihadist declares that New Israel is located on "Holy Islamic Ground" and this whole shiate storm gets started again.


The fitting place for Israel would have been to slice out a nice portion of Germany, preferably in a nice portion of the South of the country, as punishment for the NAZI atrocities in WWII.  The entire world could get behind that without much difficulty, as it would be seen as fitting for what was allowed to happen.
 
2013-04-07 07:45:14 PM

bostonguy: Here is my honest question: If Israel would withdraw to the 1967 cease-fire lines with Jordan to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state, who thinks all terrorism, rockets, and attacks on Israel would then stop?


I believe that.

Imagine if the Israeli arms industry turned to consumer products with manufacturing in Gaza They should be like a Singapore or Hong Kong.
 
2013-04-07 07:49:10 PM

liam76: super_grass: liam76: sheep snorter: So what?

Israel is Hitlers bastard son. Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.
Slaughtering people for their land and setting up a big concentration camp with full permission of the U.S. government(mainly the Republican side).

Israel committed Piracy in International waters and murdered people, yet not a word from the global governments about that crime.

Other countries are very cowardly to speak up against Israels crimes against humanity, but then Israel calls them evil for speaking the truth.

/Oh oh, look here comes them retarded people who don't read factual news and will biatch at this post.

You are a retard.

Literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc has improved for palestenians, yet you are dumb or dishonest enough to compare it to concentration camps...

The same can be said about Tibetans.

That doesn't mean the ChiComs shouldn't clean up their act.

I have no problem saying they should 'clean up their act' but when people toss out genocude, concentration camps or nazis they are going beyond calls for cleaning their act up. They are just lying about the situation, and I can't think of reason aside from antisemitism to do that.


Again, Tibet. They have race-riots regularly too.  Sometimes started by the Tibetans, sometimes the Chinese.

Whether or not the accusations are fitting or not is still up in the air. It's just interesting that there is so much cognitive dissonance between America's views on the two even though China/Israel use a lot of similar arguments.

Hawaii sort of applies too if you think about the state's history.
 
2013-04-07 07:49:35 PM

miss diminutive: flamingboard: It's not a fair fight

Is that a problem though? I don't support any side of that whole clusterfark, but I know that if Hamas had attack helicopters, tanks and F15s things would go from bad to Armageddony real quick.


Not my point. My point was that they would rather use their military muscle instead of actually trying for a two state peace plan. Also, a lot of conservatives would love if the middle east went all Armageddony because then Jesus could come back.
 
2013-04-07 07:51:33 PM

Richard C Stanford: So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck?


God gave them that land and it would make Jesus cry if they left.
 
2013-04-07 07:51:37 PM

Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.


I suppose you believe the moslem terrorists are pure as the wind driven snow and have done nothing to cause harm to anyone.
 
2013-04-07 07:51:47 PM

SubBass49: owlie: Pushing for UN recognition had nothing to do with wanting to sit down and talk about a two-state solution. Israel (or Israeli leadership or whatever you choose to call) is more than happy to have that discussion, but the leadership on the Palestinian side is not interested. The Palestinians are holding out for all or nothing, and until they recognize the legitimacy of Israel (in ANY capacity) and reciprocate in that conversation, all or nothing is all they can reasonably expect.

Mmmm...hmmmm....

You sure seem to know a lot about what the Palestinians "really" want, don't ya champ?  Meanwhile, we can see through the actions of the Israeli government EXACTLY what they want, which is the complete subjugation and control of any Palestinian people living with "their" borders.

Terrorist came from your neighborhood?  Sorry pal, but we're bulldozing your home.
Want to come work for higher wages outside the concentration zone?  Fine, stand in this line and be harassed and humiliated for a few hours.
Want to live freely in your own homeland?  Sorry buddy, that's a right we only reserve for our OWN people.  You're not worthy.
By the way, meet your new neighbors...they're going to be living in what used to be your family's olive grove...and they hate you.  Enjoy that.


Sorry, I didn't realize we were in conspiracy theory territory. How would Israelis possibly benefit from "subjugating" Palestinians? I really don't know how to respond to the rest, since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood), checkpoints exist to keep terrorists and other ne'er-do-wells out (makes sense to me), many Arab Israelis live within Israel proper and those in the Palestinian territories have their own governments and police and so forth, and the settlements aren't as glamorous as you make them out to be so I won't even go there.
 
2013-04-07 07:55:05 PM

PaLarkin: Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.

I suppose you believe the moslem terrorists are pure as the wind driven snow and have done nothing to cause harm to anyone.


Why does pointing out what one side does automatically make you support the other side?
 
2013-04-07 07:55:35 PM

super_grass: liam76:I have no problem saying they should 'clean up their act' but when people toss out genocude, concentration camps or nazis they are going beyond calls for cleaning their act up. They are just lying about the situation, and I can't think of reason aside from antisemitism to do that.

Again, Tibet. They have race-riots regularly too.  Sometimes started by the Tibetans, sometimes the Chinese.

Whether or not the accusations are fitting or not is still up in the air.
It's just interesting that there is so much cognitive dissonance between America's views on the two even though China/Israel use a lot of similar arguments.

Hawaii sort of applies too if you think about the state's history.


There is nothing "up in the air" about those accusations. If you think otherwise you are ignorant or a liar.

There is no "cognitive dissonance". Was Tibet used to stage attacks from neighboring countries that vowed to wipe out the Chinese? Did Tibet ever rain rockets on China? Did a party in Tibet that vowed to remove all the Chinese from China ever come to power?
 
2013-04-07 07:55:49 PM

flamingboard: Also, a lot of conservatives would love if the middle east went all Armageddony because then Jesus could come back.


I've written about the dominionists here before, they aren't just "hoping" for Armageddon, they're actually trying hard to use America to bring it about.

Also, too...I seriously wish Jesus would come back.
It's my belief he'd rapture many of the LGBT folks, inner city poor, over-punched hippies and food bank volunteers and leave all the bigots, neocon war mongers and religious nuts to fight it out.
 
2013-04-07 07:57:47 PM

UNC_Samurai: Whelp, this thread is pretty much irredeemable...

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 642x320]


Yup. I'm out.

img.gawkerassets.com
 
2013-04-07 07:58:13 PM

PaLarkin: Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.

I suppose you believe the moslem terrorists are pure as the wind driven snow and have done nothing to cause harm to anyone.


I believe you are referring to the Wahabbist Sunni, the Shia and Sufi are pretty much not into terrorism. Although the Shia are certainly prone to retaliation.

/the more you know!
 
2013-04-07 07:58:22 PM
randomjsa (farkied: "Holy fnck you're an idiot." - Nina_Hartley's_Ass): The two sides are Israel and a group of people who want them dead at any price and will never, ever, accept peace. Hamas will never under any circumstance accept anything short of the complete destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew in it. When the position is "we're going to kill every single solitary one of you and will stop at absolutely nothing to do it" where do you begin the process? Does it start with something like "Could you maybe only kill 80% of us?"

There is no concession Israel can make that would satisfy them. Wave around the '1967' border all you want and if Israel gave up completely on that point all that it would accomplish is giving people new places to fire rockets from... Just like what happened when Israel left Gaza. What did that accomplish? The Palestinians put Hamas in charge and celebrated with new rocket attacks. It is not in the interest of Israel for this to continue but it is in the interest of Israel's enemies that it continues, which is why it does continue.


So bomb the living schitt out of the Scary Mooselimbs.  That'll larn 'em to support Hamas.
 
2013-04-07 08:00:16 PM

Richard C Stanford: You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East?


1. Why does that stop it from being a destabilizing force?
2. We generally don't consider countries that deny roughly 35% of the people under their control "democracies" these days.


owlie: since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood),


You're in deep denial there, friend.
 
2013-04-07 08:02:44 PM

proteus_b: detritus: It took 3,000 Americans, .00001% of the US population to justify war with multiple countries that has been going on for 12 years. Your argument is ridiculous.

Yes, America can kill millions and it's somehow acceptable. But if a Jew does it, they are forever damned.

Maybe people who think that anyone who's not a red-blooded indian should be allowed to live in the territory currently occupied by the USA should "eat shiat and die".


Uh we were attacked in part because of our support for Israeli terrorism.
 
2013-04-07 08:04:35 PM

cptjeff: Richard C Stanford: You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East?

1. Why does that stop it from being a destabilizing force?
2. We generally don't consider countries that deny roughly 35% of the people under their control "democracies" these days.


owlie: since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood),

You're in deep denial there, friend.


Show me where terrorists' neighborhoods are being bulldozed as punishment.
 
2013-04-07 08:05:47 PM

owlie: Sorry, I didn't realize we were in conspiracy theory territory. How would Israelis possibly benefit from "subjugating" Palestinians? I really don't know how to respond to the rest, since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood), checkpoints exist to keep terrorists and other ne'er-do-wells out (makes sense to me), many Arab Israelis live within Israel proper and those in the Palestinian territories have their own governments and police and so forth, and the settlements aren't as glamorous as you make them out to be so I won't even go there.


Conspiracy theory?  When you segregate a group of people, force them into impoverished ghettos, force them to go through security checkpoints and stand in line for hours, restrict their access to quality health care, take their land and give it to settlers, and deny their right to have a nation of their own, how does that not equal subjugation?  Please explain.

I'm going to guess that you can't.
 
2013-04-07 08:06:13 PM
Subby must live in his parents' McMansion basement.
 
2013-04-07 08:08:13 PM

owlie: cptjeff: Richard C Stanford: You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East?

1. Why does that stop it from being a destabilizing force?
2. We generally don't consider countries that deny roughly 35% of the people under their control "democracies" these days.


owlie: since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood),

You're in deep denial there, friend.

Show me where terrorists' neighborhoods are being bulldozed as punishment.


Read up, my friend.
 
2013-04-07 08:12:05 PM

liam76: super_grass: liam76:I have no problem saying they should 'clean up their act' but when people toss out genocude, concentration camps or nazis they are going beyond calls for cleaning their act up. They are just lying about the situation, and I can't think of reason aside from antisemitism to do that.

Again, Tibet. They have race-riots regularly too.  Sometimes started by the Tibetans, sometimes the Chinese.

Whether or not the accusations are fitting or not is still up in the air. It's just interesting that there is so much cognitive dissonance between America's views on the two even though China/Israel use a lot of similar arguments.

Hawaii sort of applies too if you think about the state's history.

There is nothing "up in the air" about those accusations. If you think otherwise you are ignorant or a liar.

There is no "cognitive dissonance". Was Tibet used to stage attacks from neighboring countries that vowed to wipe out the Chinese? Did Tibet ever rain rockets on China? Did a party in Tibet that vowed to remove all the Chinese from China ever come to power?


It was, the U.S. funded Tibetan guerrillas against China. Communist China felt that Tibet would be a launching pad for foreign interests, and rationalize it by pointing out how much the living standards improved under Chinese rule - which is true.
 
2013-04-07 08:12:53 PM
Lee451:
I am a Native American (meaning I was born here)

Yeah, all the Palestinians were born there too.

and part Powhatan Indian. What is your point?

If the US started blockades and forced all of you to live on designated reservations and prohibited (or required you to seek permission that takes 6+ months) to spend one day at the beach not on "your" land, how would you feel?  If we started taking your reservation land away and claimed it was ours all along, bulldozed your house, etc. and then called you a terrorist for fighting back, how would you feel?  Some of you might fight back when pushed to a breaking point.  Would you be justified in doing so?
 
2013-04-07 08:12:57 PM
Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians, and you have no idea how Israelis have suffered.  Do the Palestinians suffer?  Yes, they do, but I believe that it's a lot of their own doing.

I don't like what Israel has done to the Palestinians, but I like what the Palestinians have done to Israel even less.

If you'd really like to know what Anti-Semitism is, I think you should walk in one of our shoes for a little bit.  Most people keep their racist comments to when they're surrounded by a bunch of people of the same general make up.  I can't tell you how many people have shown their true colours around me, just because they think I'm white and Christian like they are.  Damn... I've even had people try and backpedal out of it when I inform them I'm Jewish. "Oh, I didn't mean YOU".  Yeah.  Sure you didn't.  "Jew down in price is just a term!"  Right.
 
2013-04-07 08:14:43 PM

phalaeo: Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians, and you have no idea how Israelis have suffered.  Do the Palestinians suffer?  Yes, they do, but I believe that it's a lot of their own doing.

I don't like what Israel has done to the Palestinians, but I like what the Palestinians have done to Israel even less.

If you'd really like to know what Anti-Semitism is, I think you should walk in one of our shoes for a little bit.  Most people keep their racist comments to when they're surrounded by a bunch of people of the same general make up.  I can't tell you how many people have shown their true colours around me, just because they think I'm white and Christian like they are.  Damn... I've even had people try and backpedal out of it when I inform them I'm Jewish. "Oh, I didn't mean YOU".  Yeah.  Sure you didn't.  "Jew down in price is just a term!"  Right.


Jews are fine.  Israel sucks.
 
2013-04-07 08:16:28 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Amos Quito: proteus_b: sheep snorter: Same things that Hitler did to the Jews(due to not a big enough budget to ship the jewish people to east Africa) , Israeli is doing to whats left of Palestine and its people.

This is why today is Holocaust Memorial Day. Because what Hitler did to the Jews, is not being done to the Arabs. Dozens of thousands of Arabs have been killed by Jews (and most of those were not civilians, if that matters to you) in the course of dozens of years of war. At no point have even one percent of the Arabs been murdered by Jews, let alone two thirds, in a nearly successful attempt to eliminate them all. When you make absurd comparisons like this, it makes it hard to take you seriously. Surely you have reasonable things to say---don't make reasonable people ignore you by making gross misstatements...


I happened to notice that sheep snorter used the phrases "Israel" and "Palestine and its people", and that in your response you chose (repeatedly) to use the words "Jews" and "Arabs".

Why is that, proteus_b?

Because geography is a lot harder when the term "Arab" is applied only to people with ancestry from the Arabian peninsula rather than as a generalized term for darkies.



I suspect that proteus_b Chose to call Palestinians "Arabs" because using the term "Palestinian" works against the Zionist agenda of dehumanizing them and refusing to acknowledge them AS A PEOPLE - which is especially important right now, as the Palestinians are striving for recognition as a State - and if that happens, it'll fark up the Zionists' ongoing policy of relentless oppression and expansion into Palestinian lands (for security purposes only, of course).

And proteus_b  replaced the term "Israel" with "Jews" because Zionists want to implant the idea that ALL Jews ARE Zionists, and Zionists ARE Jews - that the two terms are synonymous. That way they can pull the anti-Semite Card and accuse anyone who criticizes the actions of Israel and/or the Zionist POLITICAL ideology of "wanting to create another Holocaust ".

The word play is subtle psych warfare, isn't it, proteus_b?
 
2013-04-07 08:18:47 PM

SubBass49: Richard C Stanford: You know what, lets just move Israel someplace else. I mean, for God's sake, why is that area even worth fighting for? It's a bombed out wasteland that has nothing of real value. So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck? Palestinians get to have their crappy desert back and the Jews can live in a place that isn't a barren desert.
/Of course it would probably be two days before some jihadist declares that New Israel is located on "Holy Islamic Ground" and this whole shiate storm gets started again.

The fitting place for Israel would have been to slice out a nice portion of Germany, preferably in a nice portion of the South of the country, as punishment for the NAZI atrocities in WWII.



Wouldn't have worked.

The Zionists would never have gone for it.
 
2013-04-07 08:19:17 PM

noitsnot: Jews are fine.  Israel sucks.


BINGO!
 
2013-04-07 08:19:18 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit



Have you been following the JIDF posts?  Apparently you're either a Zionist or Hitler Reborn.  They are hilarious.
 
2013-04-07 08:21:23 PM

phalaeo: Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians, and you have no idea how Israelis have suffered.  Do the Palestinians suffer?  Yes, they do, but I believe that it's a lot of their own doing.

I don't like what Israel has done to the Palestinians, but I like what the Palestinians have done to Israel even less.


If you'd really like to know what Anti-Semitism is, I think you should walk in one of our shoes for a little bit.  Most people keep their racist comments to when they're surrounded by a bunch of people of the same general make up.  I can't tell you how many people have shown their true colours around me, just because they think I'm white and Christian like they are.  Damn... I've even had people try and backpedal out of it when I inform them I'm Jewish. "Oh, I didn't mean YOU".  Yeah.  Sure you didn't.  "Jew down in price is just a term!"  Right.


They were just scared you'd put a sheeny curse on them...


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-07 08:23:43 PM

SubBass49: owlie: cptjeff: Richard C Stanford: You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East?

1. Why does that stop it from being a destabilizing force?
2. We generally don't consider countries that deny roughly 35% of the people under their control "democracies" these days.


owlie: since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood),

You're in deep denial there, friend.

Show me where terrorists' neighborhoods are being bulldozed as punishment.

Read up, my friend.


I don't see where it says that neighborhoods have been bulldozed as punishment for terrorists originating from those neighborhoods.

SubBass49: owlie: Sorry, I didn't realize we were in conspiracy theory territory. How would Israelis possibly benefit from "subjugating" Palestinians? I really don't know how to respond to the rest, since it's terrorists' homes that would get bulldozed (not the neighborhood), checkpoints exist to keep terrorists and other ne'er-do-wells out (makes sense to me), many Arab Israelis live within Israel proper and those in the Palestinian territories have their own governments and police and so forth, and the settlements aren't as glamorous as you make them out to be so I won't even go there.

Conspiracy theory?  When you segregate a group of people, force them into impoverished ghettos, force them to go through security checkpoints and stand in line for hours, restrict their access to quality health care, take their land and give it to settlers, and deny their right to have a nation of their own, how does that not equal subjugation?  Please explain.

I'm going to guess that you can't.


How do you figure Israelis are forcing Palestinians to live in impoverished ghettos? Where do you propose they live instead, that would be sustainable especially given their rate of reproduction? And how do you propose reducing checkpoint delays while at the same time safeguarding Israel's national security? How do you figure Palestinians are being denied access to quality health care, when even would-be suicide bombers who have been injured often receive treatment in Israel proper because the treatment offered there is superior, and what responsibility does Israel have to offer health care to Palestinians anyway when they're free to build their own hospitals and receive plenty of foreign aid? What judgment do you pass on Palestinians who have usurped traditionally Jewish land, who have desecrated and destroyed ancient synagogues and monuments on land that was given to them, or on the Israeli government for evacuating Jews from land they have lived on for generations? Moreover, where is your indignation over Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern countries, where many lived since biblical times? And can you show me where Palestinian leaders have called for a two-state solution and Israel would not sit down with them?
 
2013-04-07 08:24:17 PM
Zionists have been using the holocaust as a smokescreen to cover their own misdeeds for long enough.


THIS  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
 
2013-04-07 08:25:44 PM

fatcurlytoes: stay classy, Jew-baiters.

(show me ONE instance where the folks who like to whine about Palestinians have ever given a rat's ass about Palestinian rights in Lebanon... in Syria where they have been literally being used as cannon fodder... in Egypt where the roads from Gaza are mined... and I'll show you a hallucination because it simply does not happen. Nobody cares, not really; but it sure is jolly fun times to make hysterical accusations of war crimes against tiny, embattled Israel - where rockets are literally landing in the north AND the south now.)

fark you, you know who you are.


My government does not give a green light to illegal actions by these governments.

As many have pointed out, Jewish is not 1-1 with current Israeli Government policy. I'm against Israeli Government policy, because it is anti American interests.

Nice try Israeli government supporter.
 
2013-04-07 08:27:27 PM

phalaeo: Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians, and you have no idea how Israelis have suffered.  Do the Palestinians suffer?  Yes, they do, but I believe that it's a lot of their own doing.

I don't like what Israel has done to the Palestinians, but I like what the Palestinians have done to Israel even less.

If you'd really like to know what Anti-Semitism is, I think you should walk in one of our shoes for a little bit.  Most people keep their racist comments to when they're surrounded by a bunch of people of the same general make up.  I can't tell you how many people have shown their true colours around me, just because they think I'm white and Christian like they are.  Damn... I've even had people try and backpedal out of it when I inform them I'm Jewish. "Oh, I didn't mean YOU".  Yeah.  Sure you didn't.  "Jew down in price is just a term!"  Right.


Bingo.

If Palestinians suffer, "they had it coming."

If Israelis suffer, its because of anti-semitism.

Must be nice when you can cloak war crimes in religious zeal and call it good.
 
2013-04-07 08:38:34 PM

owlie: Show me where terrorists' neighborhoods are being bulldozed as punishment


In 2006 four Israeli soldiers were killed.

In response Israel destroyed large portions of Beirut.

axisoflogic.com
 
2013-04-07 08:43:36 PM
Actually, on this particular issue, Anon and the WBC are rather less than a step apart. Both shout antisemitic things to garner attention, without actually meaning them. (Hyperbolic Jew-bashing on 4chan started as mockery of Stormfront, and it's well-known that the Phelpses' public personae are just that.)

/Ctrl+F "Tats"
//0 results
///*Whew*
 
2013-04-07 08:52:29 PM
phalaeo: Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians,


Actually, I do have some knowledge of the history of the area, but I would certainly be interested in hearing your perspective.

What say we start by discussing why and how all those Jews wound up in Palestine in the first place?

Let's talk about why they migrated there from Europe, Russia, Asia and elsewhere, shall we?

Let's discuss who desperately wanted to move Jews to Palestine - long before it was called "Israel" - and WHY?

Were most Jews anxious to abandon their lives in Europe, Asia etc. and move to pre-Israel Palestine? Why or why not?

How did the Zionists get their hands on the real estate? And how did they manage to build import a population of Jews that was large enough to start a country?

And finally, who financed all this?


/I love history
 
2013-04-07 08:55:33 PM
Can we all just agree that all religion is farking stupid, and move on? Please?
 
2013-04-07 08:57:22 PM

owlie: I don't see where it says that neighborhoods have been bulldozed as punishment for terrorists originating from those neighborhoods.


You don't think the home of relatives may be in the same neighborhood?  Interesting.
 
2013-04-07 08:58:13 PM
Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?  We need to make this thread about guns too.
 
2013-04-07 08:58:34 PM
Christ, start the genocide already and get on with it.
 
2013-04-07 09:01:35 PM

noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?  We need to make this thread about guns too.


I dunno, but I'm a vegetarian bicyclist.

People don't mind vegetarians and bicyclists.
 
2013-04-07 09:01:47 PM
Anonymous is not a specific group of people ....


ohhhhh...  but they are still idiots like Westboro Baptist Church.
 
2013-04-07 09:07:15 PM
noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?

www.imemc.org

2.bp.blogspot.com

farm5.staticflickr.com

bokertov.typepad.com

alethonews.files.wordpress.com

Concealed carry? Who needs "concealed"?

Only a "terrorist" would want to conceal.
 
2013-04-07 09:09:36 PM
 How do you figure Israelis are forcing Palestinians to live in impoverished ghettos? Where do you propose they live instead, that would be sustainable especially given their rate of reproduction? And how do you propose reducing checkpoint delays while at the same time safeguarding Israel's national security? How do you figure Palestinians are being denied access to quality health care, when even would-be suicide bombers who have been injured often receive treatment in Israel proper because the treatment offered there is superior, and what responsibility does Israel have to offer health care to Palestinians anyway when they're free to build their own hospitals and receive plenty of foreign aid? What judgment do you pass on Palestinians who have usurped traditionally Jewish land, who have desecrated and destroyed ancient synagogues and monuments on land that was given to them, or on the Israeli government for evacuating Jews from land they have lived on for generations? Moreover, where is your indignation over Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern countries, where many lived since biblical times? And can you show me where Palestinian leaders have called for a two-state solution and Israel would not sit down with them?
owlie:
How do you figure Israelis are forcing Palestinians to live in impoverished ghettos? Where do you propose they live instead, that would be sustainable especially given their rate of reproduction? And how do you propose reducing checkpoint delays while at the same time safeguarding Israel's national security? How do you figure Palestinians are being denied access to quality health care, when even would-be suicide bombers who have been injured often receive treatment in Israel proper because the treatment offered there is superior, and what responsibility does Israel have to offer health care to Palestinians anyway when they're free to build their own hospitals and receive plenty of foreign aid? What judgment do you pass on Palestinians who have usurped traditionally Jewish land, who have desecrated and destroyed ancient synagogues and monuments on land that was given to them, or on the Israeli government for evacuating Jews from land they have lived on for generations? Moreover, where is your indignation over Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern countries, where many lived since biblical times? And can you show me where Palestinian leaders have called for a two-state solution and Israel would not sit down with them?


1. "Their" rate of reproduction, huh?  Interesting dehumanizing terminology there.  Would you say "they" breed like rats, or rabbits?  Thanks for the insight into your mindset and true opinion of Palestinians.

2. Want to safeguard Israeli citizens?  Treat Palestinians in a manner that reduces their desire to have violent uprisings.  Hard to convince a person who has something to live for that blowing himself up is a good idea.  Yet somehow there seems to be a never-ending supply of young Palestinians who feel that life will never get better.  Wonder why.  A fair Palestinian state will provide more security for Israel than any checkpoint ever will.

3. Sure, Palestinians are free to build their own hospitals.  That's like saying that the residents of Compton are free to build their own hospital.  Should be easy, right?  Just come up with a few hundred million dollars and people that want to live and work in a war zone...simple as that!

4. Are you actually wanting me to feel bad for Israelis that were evacuated from land that just a few generations ago was stolen from Palestinians and HANDED to Israelis, because Palestinians had the nerve to get angry and react?  Just want to know if you're serious.

5. My indignation is tied to the current state of affairs.  If Israelis were being treated as the Palestinians are right now, I'd be angry about that as well.  No human should be forced to endure what the Palestinians are enduring at the present moment in history.  You'd like to imagine that as a people that had historically been mistreated and enslaved, that Zionist Jews would be opposed to treating others in such a manner, but apparently a large portion of the population hasn't come to terms with the irony yet.  Maybe it's akin to the victim of abuse becoming the abuser when they finally are the one in control.
 
2013-04-07 09:13:47 PM
Gee, when anonymous attacks the 'bad' people that Farkers don't like, they are the good guys.  I keep wondering when the Israelis are going to start implementing the ovens in the Palestinian concentration camps.  Remember when the Nazis put the Jews in concentration camps and everyone thought it was bad.  Boy has the world changed since the early 40's.
 
2013-04-07 09:14:11 PM
Or an intelligence agency did it and made it look like Anon did in order to turn the public against them
 
2013-04-07 09:15:45 PM

SubBass49: H

...

I can confidently say I speak for most Farkers when I say "tldnr".

/ tldnr
// Seriosly tldnr
 
2013-04-07 09:18:23 PM

Amos Quito: noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?

[www.imemc.org image 300x244]

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x284]

[farm5.staticflickr.com image 483x333]

[bokertov.typepad.com image 400x275]

[alethonews.files.wordpress.com image 300x225]

Concealed carry? Who needs "concealed"?

Only a "terrorist" would want to conceal.



WOW!

I just realized that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the firearms in the pics I posted above is an ASSAULT WEAPON!

Maybe Feinstein and Bloomberg should "have a word" with Israel about "rational gun control".

I'm sure they have a fair amount influence over there.

/Or is what's good for the joose not good for the gander?
 
2013-04-07 09:18:48 PM

randomjsa: The two sides are Israel and a group of people who want them dead at any price and will never, ever, accept peace. Hamas will never under any circumstance accept anything short of the complete destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew in it. When the position is "we're going to kill every single solitary one of you and will stop at absolutely nothing to do it" where do you begin the process? Does it start with something like "Could you maybe only kill 80% of us?"


So, since Israel is supposedly facing these circumstances, they have no choice but to keep killing these 'enemies', which will make the enemies swear to destroy them for the very same reason.

BOTH sides are being fed the same propaganda, and acting on the same logic, to perpetuate all this. It really looks like they're both being manipulated and used to further some other agenda, but are too dim to realize it.
 
2013-04-07 09:26:46 PM

fatcurlytoes: stay classy, Jew-baiters.

(show me ONE instance where the folks who like to whine about Palestinians have ever given a rat's ass about Palestinian rights in Lebanon... in Syria where they have been literally being used as cannon fodder... in Egypt where the roads from Gaza are mined... and I'll show you a hallucination because it simply does not happen. Nobody cares, not really; but it sure is jolly fun times to make hysterical accusations of war crimes against tiny, embattled Israel - where rockets are literally landing in the north AND the south now.)

fark you, you know who you are.


Wow. Why don't those poor Palestinians just go home if things are so bad for them in other countries?
 
2013-04-07 09:35:23 PM

Amos Quito: noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?

[www.imemc.org image 300x244]

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x284]

[farm5.staticflickr.com image 483x333]

[bokertov.typepad.com image 400x275]

[alethonews.files.wordpress.com image 300x225]

Concealed carry? Who needs "concealed"?

Only a "terrorist" would want to conceal.


Interesting idea - concealed weapon carriers are terrorists - I'll think about that...
 
2013-04-07 09:35:53 PM

detritus: When did anti-semitism only apply to Jews?  Israel's government is just as anti-semitic and racist towards Arabs and Blacks.  I'm convinced they are the 21st century moral equivalent of Nazis.  And, just like the US warmly embraced Hitler and the Nazi party pre-WWII, look where we are, supporting a state guilty of doing the same shiat we fought against.

Yet it's OK if Israel creates Stuxnet which has done an incredible amount of damage yet "woe is them" if they get a taste of the shiat they dished out? 

Israel is a terrorist state that needs to be overthrown, and Netanyahu should meet the same fate as Saddam. If there were a US war against Israel I'd enlist tomorrow.


Because if you try to explain to...well, just about anyone, really...that the term "anti-Semite" also refers to Arabs and some blacks, they'll look at you like you just grew horns and spun your head a full 360 on your neck.

I would LOVE to see Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh's reaction to being called anti-Semitic the next time they start running their mouths about "those people" (by that, I mean Muslims) while singing the praises of Israel. Seriously, I think I would pay money to see the purple-faced explosion.
 
2013-04-07 09:36:46 PM

Amos Quito: phalaeo: Wow, a lot of people in this thread make me sick.  You have no idea what the history is between Israel and the Palestinians,


Actually, I do have some knowledge of the history of the area, but I would certainly be interested in hearing your perspective.

What say we start by discussing why and how all those Jews wound up in Palestine in the first place?

Let's talk about why they migrated there from Europe, Russia, Asia and elsewhere, shall we?

Let's discuss who desperately wanted to move Jews to Palestine - long before it was called "Israel" - and WHY?

Were most Jews anxious to abandon their lives in Europe, Asia etc. and move to pre-Israel Palestine? Why or why not?

How did the Zionists get their hands on the real estate? And how did they manage to build import a population of Jews that was large enough to start a country?

And finally, who financed all this?


/I love history


According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.
 
2013-04-07 09:39:10 PM

Amos Quito: Amos Quito: noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?

...

WOW!

I just realized that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the firearms in the pics I posted above is an ASSAULT WEAPON!

/Or is what's good for the joose not good for the gander?


Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the helmets those soldiers are wearing in several of those pictures - they don't seem like they would provide adequate protection in combat.  Is it just me?  I'd want something that came down over the ears at least.
 
2013-04-07 09:39:39 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.


What is the real story?
 
2013-04-07 09:40:51 PM
Oh those poor Israelis. Yawn.
 
Oak
2013-04-07 09:42:11 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" "Wall Street," or "the Hollywood left," depending on your personal pathology, and sky's the limit


FTFY
 
2013-04-07 09:43:51 PM

jaytkay: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.

What is the real story?


I don't know yet. It's not something that can be summarized in a Fark post or a Wikipedia entry. Read every bit of history about the subject that you can get your hands on for about 10 years, and that will be a halfway decent start.
 
2013-04-07 09:53:08 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: jaytkay: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.

What is the real story?

I don't know yet. It's not something that can be summarized in a Fark post or a Wikipedia entry. Read every bit of history about the subject that you can get your hands on for about 10 years, and that will be a halfway decent start.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_Bet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Aliyah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
 
2013-04-07 09:56:16 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: jaytkay: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.

What is the real story?

I don't know yet. It's not something that can be summarized in a Fark post or a Wikipedia entry. Read every bit of history about the subject that you can get your hands on for about 10 years, and that will be a halfway decent start.


Well add in the Soviet Union and that is the general history of it. Of course you can find lots of gray areas in terms of how everything went down exactly and the motivations of the relative parties. But on the basic level yes it is true. And even then many of those things you read will disagree on certain aspects of it, plus as new things are studied and revealed some things will change as well. But for most people who will not dedicate a decade or more to study up on the war the general history is good enough.
 
2013-04-07 09:59:51 PM

anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


"Eich bin ein arschloch!"
 
2013-04-07 10:03:37 PM

Tellingthem: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: jaytkay: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: According to popular history, the Nazis, because they were evil, attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe due to racism, and nearly succeeded until the US and UK stepped in, defeating Germany and giving the Jews a nice bug chunk of land around Jerusalem as repairations.

Of course, every single bit of that is bullshiat.

What is the real story?

I don't know yet. It's not something that can be summarized in a Fark post or a Wikipedia entry. Read every bit of history about the subject that you can get your hands on for about 10 years, and that will be a halfway decent start.

Well add in the Soviet Union and that is the general history of it. Of course you can find lots of gray areas in terms of how everything went down exactly and the motivations of the relative parties. But on the basic level yes it is true. And even then many of those things you read will disagree on certain aspects of it, plus as new things are studied and revealed some things will change as well. But for most people who will not dedicate a decade or more to study up on the war the general history is good enough.


lol perfect
 
2013-04-07 10:07:41 PM

noitsnot: Amos Quito: noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?

[www.imemc.org image 300x244]

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x284]

[farm5.staticflickr.com image 483x333]

[bokertov.typepad.com image 400x275]

[alethonews.files.wordpress.com image 300x225]

Concealed carry? Who needs "concealed"?

Only a "terrorist" would want to conceal.

Interesting idea - concealed weapon carriers are terrorists - I'll think about that...



No, ONLY in Israel - and then ONLY if the carriers are not Jewish.
 
2013-04-07 10:07:53 PM
Anonymous may be having some fun until Mossad comes knocking at the door.  Then it will be "game over".
 
2013-04-07 10:18:03 PM
ITT:  Trolls vilifying trolls
 
2013-04-07 10:19:18 PM

runwiz: Anonymous may be having some fun until Mossad comes knocking at the door.  Then it will be "game over".



Methinks Mossad may be masturbating for your viewing pleasure.

IOW, bullshiat propaganda attack.


/POOR LITTLE ISRAEL!
 
2013-04-07 10:23:07 PM

friday13: Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...


A grain of Dead Sea salt at that.
 
2013-04-07 10:34:35 PM
SubBass49: 1. "Their" rate of reproduction, huh?  Interesting dehumanizing terminology there.  Would you say "they" breed like rats, or rabbits?  Thanks for the insight into your mindset and true opinion of Palestinians.

Had I wanted to say "they" breed like rabbits, I would have said so. I said exactly what I meant to say, you decided to pretend you know what I really mean, and conveniently failed to answer a simple logistical question.

2. Want to safeguard Israeli citizens?  Treat Palestinians in a manner that reduces their desire to have violent uprisings.  Hard to convince a person who has something to live for that blowing himself up is a good idea.  Yet somehow there seems to be a never-ending supply of young Palestinians who feel that life will never get better.  Wonder why.  A fair Palestinian state will provide more security for Israel than any checkpoint ever will.

If you're going to go down the path of judging actions based on reactions, there's absolutely no conceivable argument that would change your position. I won't try, but please consider how illogical that is.

3. Sure, Palestinians are free to build their own hospitals.  That's like saying that the residents of Compton are free to build their own hospital.  Should be easy, right?  Just come up with a few hundred million dollars and people that want to live and work in a war zone...simple as that!

I don't understand the comparison. Besides, lots of people live and work in war zones.

4. Are you actually wanting me to feel bad for Israelis that were evacuated from land that just a few generations ago was stolen from Palestinians and HANDED to Israelis, because Palestinians had the nerve to get angry and react?  Just want to know if you're serious.

Are you talking about land that individual Arab landholders sold to Jews? The British Mandate? I don't even know where you're going with this, unless you mean that a State of Israel hasn't always existed, which is true. Are you saying that's what the region should go back to? No sovereign nation of Israel at all?

5. My indignation is tied to the current state of affairs.  If Israelis were being treated as the Palestinians are right now, I'd be angry about that as well.  No human should be forced to endure what the Palestinians are enduring at the present moment in history.  You'd like to imagine that as a people that had historically been mistreated and enslaved, that Zionist Jews would be opposed to treating others in such a manner, but apparently a large portion of the population hasn't come to terms with the irony yet.  Maybe it's akin to the victim of abuse becoming the abuser when they finally are the one in control.

It's really very simple. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel is open to a two-state solution. Palestinian leaders are not interested, and in fact still don't all agree that Israel (in any form) has the right to simply exist (which, if anything, brings to mind Nazi Germany's denial of Jews' right to exist). If they want to be treated like a sovereign nation, then they should act like one. But as long as they continue to fire rockets into Israeli civic centers and commit acts of terrorism (not to mention using funds earmarked for public service toward furthering their efforts to kill Israelis), Israel's failure to acquiesce to Palestinian demands should come as a surprise to exactly no one.
 
2013-04-07 10:42:07 PM
I lost a Jewish friend of 20 years when I stood up to her anti-Palestinian bullshiat.  Haven't missed her much.  She got old and fat, and lacked nubile daughters.
 
2013-04-07 10:48:37 PM
At least they didn't accuse Rick Warren of driving his son to suicide. Can you imagine? I mean, that would be TRUE assholery.
 
2013-04-07 10:54:14 PM

owlie: SubBass49: 1. "Their" rate of reproduction, huh?  Interesting dehumanizing terminology there.  Would you say "they" breed like rats, or rabbits?  Thanks for the insight into your mindset and true opinion of Palestinians.

Had I wanted to say "they" breed like rabbits, I would have said so. I said exactly what I meant to say, you decided to pretend you know what I really mean, and conveniently failed to answer a simple logistical question.

2. Want to safeguard Israeli citizens?  Treat Palestinians in a manner that reduces their desire to have violent uprisings.  Hard to convince a person who has something to live for that blowing himself up is a good idea.  Yet somehow there seems to be a never-ending supply of young Palestinians who feel that life will never get better.  Wonder why.  A fair Palestinian state will provide more security for Israel than any checkpoint ever will.

If you're going to go down the path of judging actions based on reactions, there's absolutely no conceivable argument that would change your position. I won't try, but please consider how illogical that is.

3. Sure, Palestinians are free to build their own hospitals.  That's like saying that the residents of Compton are free to build their own hospital.  Should be easy, right?  Just come up with a few hundred million dollars and people that want to live and work in a war zone...simple as that!

I don't understand the comparison. Besides, lots of people live and work in war zones.

4. Are you actually wanting me to feel bad for Israelis that were evacuated from land that just a few generations ago was stolen from Palestinians and HANDED to Israelis, because Palestinians had the nerve to get angry and react?  Just want to know if you're serious.

Are you talking about land that individual Arab landholders sold to Jews? The British Mandate? I don't even know where you're going with this, unless you mean that a State of Israel hasn't always existed, which is true. Are you saying that's what the ...



Nice answers, but they all seem to be
logoinspirations.com
 
2013-04-07 10:59:13 PM
I just came for Al Gore and am leaving disappointed.
 
2013-04-07 11:02:04 PM
SubBass49:
Nice answers, but they all seem to be

How very meta of you.
 
2013-04-07 11:07:49 PM
I heard Anonymous carved an actual Swastika onto some girls dorm room door.
 
2013-04-07 11:08:27 PM

boinkingbill: Gee, when anonymous attacks the 'bad' people that Farkers don't like, they are the good guys.  I keep wondering when the Israelis are going to start implementing the ovens in the Palestinian concentration camps.  Remember when the Nazis put the Jews in concentration camps and everyone thought it was bad.  Boy has the world changed since the early 40's.


Willie Pete would like a word with you. He was last seen in Gaza, but was also known to hang around in southern Lebanon.
 
2013-04-07 11:28:32 PM

owlie: It's really very simple. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel is open to a two-state solution. Palestinian leaders are not interested, and in fact still don't all agree that Israel (in any form) has the right to simply exist (which, if anything, brings to mind Nazi Germany's denial of Jews' right to exist). If they want to be treated like a sovereign nation, then they should act like one. But as long as they continue to fire rockets into Israeli civic centers and commit acts of terrorism (not to mention using funds earmarked for public service toward furthering their efforts to kill Israelis), Israel's failure to acquiesce to Palestinian demands should come as a surprise to exactly no one.


You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense
 
2013-04-07 11:43:29 PM
good.  Israel have been acting like jerks lately.  can't say I feel at all sorry for 'em.
 
2013-04-07 11:47:02 PM
You know who else hated Jews.
 
2013-04-07 11:47:48 PM

rappy: owlie: It's really very simple. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel is open to a two-state solution. Palestinian leaders are not interested, and in fact still don't all agree that Israel (in any form) has the right to simply exist (which, if anything, brings to mind Nazi Germany's denial of Jews' right to exist). If they want to be treated like a sovereign nation, then they should act like one. But as long as they continue to fire rockets into Israeli civic centers and commit acts of terrorism (not to mention using funds earmarked for public service toward furthering their efforts to kill Israelis), Israel's failure to acquiesce to Palestinian demands should come as a surprise to exactly no one.

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense


i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-07 11:52:41 PM
I liked the part where they told Benjamin Netanyahu "Tits or GTFO".
 
2013-04-07 11:58:55 PM
I have been noticing that a lot of people on these types of threads who wish to retort to another posting in the thread tend to make their points null by insisting on insulting the original poster they are replying to.  Why?  If you can't agree to the post then you should state your different opinion and be on your merry way.  Why degrade yourself by belittling others, especially over the internet which only goes to show that you don't really believe in your convictions and must rely on insults to justify your causes.  If one does not agree with you that does not make them the anti-christ or pedophile or whatever.  That type of black and white logic only leads to extreme positions and does not allow for proper rhetoric to allow people to come to an amicable conclusion.
 
2013-04-08 12:07:29 AM
So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why?

I see Fark is the perfect place to read rational discussions and opinions based on history being thoroughly recalled through debate and intensive research.
 
2013-04-08 12:08:57 AM

soia: I have been noticing that a lot of people on these types of threads who wish to retort to another posting in the thread tend to make their points null by insisting on insulting the original poster they are replying to.  Why?  If you can't agree to the post then you should state your different opinion and be on your merry way.  Why degrade yourself by belittling others, especially over the internet which only goes to show that you don't really believe in your convictions and must rely on insults to justify your causes.  If one does not agree with you that does not make them the anti-christ or pedophile or whatever.  That type of black and white logic only leads to extreme positions and does not allow for proper rhetoric to allow people to come to an amicable conclusion.


Welcome to Fark.jpeg
 
2013-04-08 12:29:57 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?



Yeah? So you're obsession with ancient history somehow grants you title to the land, or what?


EsteeFlwrPot: Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why?



One might ASSUME that it was named after the Biblical Philistines, no?

Oh, and BTW, did you miss this text from the Old Testament / Torah?

QUOTE:

"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God."

END QUOTE


Seems to me that Jews who are obsessed with ancient history shouldn't be terribly whiny about others committing GENOCIDE, if you catch my drift.

You like ancient history? It's all or nothing, darling.

Make your choice.


/No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot
 
2013-04-08 12:32:59 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why?

I see Fark is the perfect place to read rational discussions and opinions based on history being thoroughly recalled through debate and intensive research.


You mean Canaan?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-08 12:37:46 AM
 
2013-04-08 12:47:19 AM

Amos Quito: Or is what's good for the joose not good for the gander?


assets0.ordienetworks.com

For the record I think the zionists and hamas are assholes.
I guess I am anti semitic (they are both semites are they not ?)

The whole situation sucks, neither side has the moral high ground. Never have, never will.

/ "I have friends of both racial backgrounds" and they hate the zionists and hamas too
// all of them have left that shiathole and now live in the US
/ why the fark is anyone fighting over such a terrible land, Ive seen better land in Nevada for farks sake
 
2013-04-08 12:53:48 AM
Gato Blanco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY


Love that video.


/Shiatty piece of land, tho
//Major pain in the ass
///Proverbial
 
2013-04-08 01:04:57 AM
EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why? The Roman's, as part of the sacking of the temple (Emperor Hadrian... to erase any connection of the people to the land... a tactic enjoyed by the more learned Anti-Semites (see: Amos-Cannot-Quito Hating Jews above for reference).

I see Fark is the perfect place to read rational discussions and opinions based on history being thoroughly recalled through debate and intensive research.
 
2013-04-08 01:12:53 AM

Amos Quito: No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot


Right so in Ancient times, when land was won in war, the Israelites fought, killed all the people and won the land. Why are you acting like i'm not admitting historical fact? That's how everyone won the land they settled in. France, Spain, Russia, China, America, etc. All the people that lived on those lands had to fight to establish their boundaries and then settled on those lands. What do you think, land was won by a riveting game of chess followed by tea and crackers?

The Israelites killed the people, won the lands, settled and built their empires. Then here come the Romans to kick them out, except they don't kick out all the people and the some of the Jews living there were forced out. So then for the rest of history, thousands of years later, you have some Jews still living on the land and some Jews sprinkled all over the world, wanting to go back to their land but since they can't they tried to make ends meet elsewhere. Eventually that doesn't work out and they try to go back home. They go back but now there are these other people living there along with some Jews that were also there living in certain areas. Some of these people (the palestinians) are perfectly ok sharing the land and so they live in Israel along with the Jews, working and living life neighbors with Jews and happy as pie (you see this when you actually go to Israel and not just look at news and think you know what's actually going on in the country). Some palestinians have a problem with this and decide to act out violently. Other palestinians really just want to live their lives and be left alone but unfortunately are being used by their Arab neighbors for political games instead of actually being helped, so they're really stuck in a bind.

It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes along and establishes some real closure and peace.
 
2013-04-08 01:13:58 AM

spill_thrill: I heard Anonymous carved an actual Swastika onto some girls dorm room door.


With 19,000 hacked Facebook accounts and private websites 'hacked' with 'anti-Israel' images... a Swastika on a girl's digital dorm room door is pretty much the case here.

Real classy anonymouse.
media49.podbean.com
 
2013-04-08 01:15:26 AM

NostroZ: EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why? The Roman's, as part of the sacking of the temple (Emperor Hadrian... to erase any connection of the people to the land... a tactic enjoyed by the more learned Anti-Semites (see: Amos-Cannot-Quito Hating Jews above for reference).

I see Fark is the perfect place to read rational discussions and opinions based on history being thoroughly recalled through debate and intensive research.


Thank you. Now did anyone besides a couple of people in the thread actually know that?
 
2013-04-08 01:19:09 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: Amos Quito: No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot

Right so in Ancient times, when land was won in war, the Israelites fought, killed all the people and won the land. Why are you acting like i'm not admitting historical fact? That's how everyone won the land they settled in. France, Spain, Russia, China, America, etc. All the people that lived on those lands had to fight to establish their boundaries and then settled on those lands. What do you think, land was won by a riveting game of chess followed by tea and crackers?

The Israelites killed the people, won the lands, settled and built their empires. Then here come the Romans to kick them out, except they don't kick out all the people and the some of the Jews living there were forced out. So then for the rest of history, thousands of years later, you have some Jews still living on the land and some Jews sprinkled all over the world, wanting to go back to their land but since they can't they tried to make ends meet elsewhere. Eventually that doesn't work out and they try to go back home. They go back but now there are these other people living there along with some Jews that were also there living in certain areas. Some of these people (the palestinians) are perfectly ok sharing the land and so they live in Israel along with the Jews, working and living life neighbors with Jews and happy as pie (you see this when you actually go to Israel and not just look at news and think you know what's actually going on in the country). Some palestinians have a problem with this and decide to act out violently. Other palestinians really just want to live their lives and be left alone but unfortunately are being used by their Arab neighbors for political games instead of actually being helped, so they're really stuck in a bind.

It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes ...


I just want to add, the palestinian people are really syrians, jordinians, egyptians, etc that were left there when the Jews wanted to come back to Israel. The countries refused to take their refugees because they would rather let their own people suffer to fight against Jews settling in Israel instead of showing actual love and concern to their own people. It's a better game if the enemy looks like the bad guy, especially since the world turns a blind eye to arab on arab crime.

/does anyone know how syria, jordan and egypt treat the palestinians?
 
2013-04-08 01:22:10 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: Amos Quito: No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot

Right so in Ancient times, when land was won in war, the Israelites fought, killed all the people and won the land. Why are you acting like i'm not admitting historical fact? That's how everyone won the land they settled in. France, Spain, Russia, China, America, etc. All the people that lived on those lands had to fight to establish their boundaries and then settled on those lands. What do you think, land was won by a riveting game of chess followed by tea and crackers?

The Israelites killed the people, won the lands, settled and built their empires. Then here come the Romans to kick them out, except they don't kick out all the people and the some of the Jews living there were forced out. So then for the rest of history, thousands of years later, you have some Jews still living on the land and some Jews sprinkled all over the world, wanting to go back to their land but since they can't they tried to make ends meet elsewhere. Eventually that doesn't work out and they try to go back home. They go back but now there are these other people living there along with some Jews that were also there living in certain areas. Some of these people (the palestinians) are perfectly ok sharing the land and so they live in Israel along with the Jews, working and living life neighbors with Jews and happy as pie (you see this when you actually go to Israel and not just look at news and think you know what's actually going on in the country). Some palestinians have a problem with this and decide to act out violently. Other palestinians really just want to live their lives and be left alone but unfortunately are being used by their Arab neighbors for political games instead of actually being helped, so they're really stuck in a bind.

It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes ...


So when Israelis killed people and kicked others out, they 'won the land', but when Israelis get killed and chased out, they DESERVE to go back home, and the Palestinians should quit whining about it?
 
2013-04-08 01:26:01 AM
For anyone who still thinks Israel is blameless in all things, I invite you to Google "The Levan Affair."
 
2013-04-08 01:26:55 AM

NostroZ: EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why? The Roman's, as part of the sacking of the temple (Emperor Hadrian... to erase any connection of the people to the land... a tactic enjoyed by the more learned Anti-Semites (see: Amos-Cannot-Quito Hating Jews above for reference).



So sez the dude who CLAIMS to have me on ignore.

lulZ


Do you know what REALLY causes anti-Semitism, NostroZ?

Semitism.

You can't have an antithesis without a thesis, sweetheart.


/Think about it
//No, really
///I know it hurts, but at least TRY
 
2013-04-08 01:27:25 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: Amos Quito: No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot

Right so in Ancient times, when land was won in war, the Israelites fought, killed all the people and won the land. Why are you acting like i'm not admitting historical fact? That's how everyone won the land they settled in. France, Spain, Russia, China, America, etc. All the people that lived on those lands had to fight to establish their boundaries and then settled on those lands. What do you think, land was won by a riveting game of chess followed by tea and crackers?

The Israelites killed the people, won the lands, settled and built their empires. Then here come the Romans to kick them out, except they don't kick out all the people and the some of the Jews living there were forced out. So then for the rest of history, thousands of years later, you have some Jews still living on the land and some Jews sprinkled all over the world, wanting to go back to their land but since they can't they tried to make ends meet elsewhere. Eventually that doesn't work out and they try to go back home. They go back but now there are these other people living there along with some Jews that were also there living in certain areas. Some of these people (the palestinians) are perfectly ok sharing the land and so they live in Israel along with the Jews, working and living life neighbors with Jews and happy as pie (you see this when you actually go to Israel and not just look at news and think you know what's actually going on in the country). Some palestinians have a problem with this and decide to act out violently. Other palestinians really just want to live their lives and be left alone but unfortunately are being used by their Arab neighbors for political games instead of actually being helped, so they're really stuck in a bind.

It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes ...


So, let me make sure I understand.  You are saying that, if you conquer a land, you need to make sure you commit a total and complete genocide - because if any survivors are left in the land, they will have a claim on it thousands of years later.

So the Israelites exterminated the Canaanites, Jebusites, Phillistines and had an uncontested claim on the land - but then the Romans didn't finish off all the Israelites when they came in, so the surviving Israelites can claim the land later.

Is that it?
 
2013-04-08 01:29:45 AM

Gato Blanco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY


Awesome.
 
2013-04-08 01:37:10 AM

LordJiro: It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes ...

So when Israelis killed people and kicked others out, they 'won the land', but when Israelis get killed and chased out, they DESERVE to go back home, and the Palestinians should quit whining about it?


flashtrafficblog.files.wordpress.com

Real world calling...  Might makes right.
Might in Israel = As much rights as you can give with daily security concerns
Might by Hamas = Death to GAYS, CHRISTIANS, and non-conforming


/Israel is there because they have fought tooth-and-nail to keep that little slit of land.
//There is no moral debate of who deserves what... that's a 1st world luxury debate.
///If the Arabs had their way the Jews would have been exterminated in 1929.   1948.   1950s reprisals, 1967 six day war, the 1st/2nd antifada, etc. etc.
 
2013-04-08 02:17:16 AM
just days after anonymous discredits a world leader and creates an international uproar, a group claiming to be anonymous insults the biggest sacred cow of the latest century?

how convenient

/i'm not saying it's an inside job
//but
 
2013-04-08 02:18:08 AM

rappy: owlie: It's really very simple. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel is open to a two-state solution. Palestinian leaders are not interested, and in fact still don't all agree that Israel (in any form) has the right to simply exist (which, if anything, brings to mind Nazi Germany's denial of Jews' right to exist). If they want to be treated like a sovereign nation, then they should act like one. But as long as they continue to fire rockets into Israeli civic centers and commit acts of terrorism (not to mention using funds earmarked for public service toward furthering their efforts to kill Israelis), Israel's failure to acquiesce to Palestinian demands should come as a surprise to exactly no one.

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense



Did...did you just have a stroke...?
 
2013-04-08 02:36:09 AM

CAT-LIKE TYPING DETECTED: rappy:
You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense


Did...did you just have a stroke...?


Um, I hope it wasn't because of anything I said. :/
 
2013-04-08 02:37:56 AM
awesome.
 
2013-04-08 02:50:44 AM

Gaius: Richard C Stanford: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Israel is equivalent to the little bastard in high school who got away with everything because they were the son/daughter of a teacher or the principal.

Israel is committing warcrimes and the Zionists need to eat sh** and die. Palestine is full of refugees and lunatics who want to provoke the situation more.

Israel needs to give up on the damn settlements issue. Draw the lines according to the 1947 treaty, declare Jerusalem as a neutral zone, and make it clear that if any settlements go up outside of the boundaries, the US stops funding and military protection right there. Palestine also needs to be told that aid will be available for rebuilding, but any attacks that come from Palestine means a sacrifice of the building that the attack came from (if a local terror cell shoots a rocket from a hospital, the hospital is now a military target).

It sure as hell wouldn't stop the problem completely, but it would be a damn good start.

You know what, lets just move Israel someplace else. I mean, for God's sake, why is that area even worth fighting for? It's a bombed out wasteland that has nothing of real value. So why don't we just take all the monuments and stuff and establish New Israel in a place that doesn't suck? Palestinians get to have their crappy desert back and the Jews can live in a place that isn't a barren desert.
/Of course it would probably be two days before some jihadist declares that New Israel is located on "Holy Islamic Ground" and this whole shiate storm gets started again.

Like Madagascar?


If it were Madagascar, the president would just SHUT.  DOWN.  EVERYTHING.
 
2013-04-08 03:00:53 AM

jaytkay: noitsnot: Can you get a concealed carry permit in Israel very easily?  We need to make this thread about guns too.

I dunno, but I'm a vegetarian bicyclist.

People don't mind vegetarians and bicyclists.



Damn vegetarian bicyclists!   (nsfw language)
 
2013-04-08 03:03:37 AM

Aigoo: Because if you try to explain to...well, just about anyone, really...that the term "anti-Semite" also refers to Arabs and some blacks, they'll look at you like you just grew horns and spun your head a full 360 on your neck.


No.  As has already been pointed out in this thread, "anti-Semite" refers ONLY to bigotry against Jews.
 
2013-04-08 03:31:14 AM

Ghastly: I liked the part where they told Benjamin Netanyahu "Tits or GTFO".


I love this place. There's always a gem or two.
 
2013-04-08 03:59:23 AM

Mr. Breeze: Uncle Tractor: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x480]

Congratulations! I think that's the most straw men I've ever seen in one small box.


What straw men? It's a well-known fact that any criticism of Israel will get you branded as an "anti-semite."
 
2013-04-08 04:09:15 AM

Richard C Stanford: Thisbymaster: Good, Israel has done everything in its power to destabilise the middle east.

You do realize that Israel is the only functional democracy in the Middle East?


Israel is a democracy the same way Apartheid SA was a democracy; it isn't. The word you're looking for is "ethnocracy."

 Or the fact that you would probably be abducted and murdered in most other middle eastern countries?
 
2013-04-08 04:18:23 AM

ciberido: No.  As has already been pointed out in this thread, "anti-Semite" refers ONLY to bigotry against Jews.


Difficulty: "Semite" refers to several ethnicities, including arabs. AFAIK, most semites are arabs. To clutter it up even more, not all jews are semites.

So even though you are correct in saying that the expression "anti-semite" was created as a reference of bigotry against jews, the literal meaning of the expression means bigotry against all semites, jewish or not.  Furthermore, why should we use a flawed expression made by a bigot?
 
2013-04-08 04:36:19 AM
Meh. I've seen the Israelis get trolled like this a long time ago...

Link

Now, can we please change this to a hot Jew thread?

2.bp.blogspot.com

i446.photobucket.com

i.imgur.com

media.heavy.com

/Oy!
 
2013-04-08 04:40:37 AM
Of course...the left and anti-Semitism have always been hand in hand.....people forget that the Nazis were National Socialist German Workers Party.

And, Joseph Stalin was beginning a purge of all Soviet Jews before he died

All this Anti Israel nonsense is just setting up Holocaust II.
 
2013-04-08 04:46:50 AM

FloridaFarkTag: Of course...the left and anti-Semitism have always been hand in hand.....people forget that the Nazis were National Socialist German Workers Party.

And, Joseph Stalin was beginning a purge of all Soviet Jews before he died

All this Anti Israel nonsense is just setting up Holocaust II.


lolollololol 5/10
 
2013-04-08 04:55:41 AM

EsteeFlwrPot: EsteeFlwrPot: Amos Quito: No one like hypocrites, EsteeFlwrPot

Right so in Ancient times, when land was won in war, the Israelites fought, killed all the people and won the land. Why are you acting like i'm not admitting historical fact? That's how everyone won the land they settled in. France, Spain, Russia, China, America, etc. All the people that lived on those lands had to fight to establish their boundaries and then settled on those lands. What do you think, land was won by a riveting game of chess followed by tea and crackers?

The Israelites killed the people, won the lands, settled and built their empires. Then here come the Romans to kick them out, except they don't kick out all the people and the some of the Jews living there were forced out. So then for the rest of history, thousands of years later, you have some Jews still living on the land and some Jews sprinkled all over the world, wanting to go back to their land but since they can't they tried to make ends meet elsewhere. Eventually that doesn't work out and they try to go back home. They go back but now there are these other people living there along with some Jews that were also there living in certain areas. Some of these people (the palestinians) are perfectly ok sharing the land and so they live in Israel along with the Jews, working and living life neighbors with Jews and happy as pie (you see this when you actually go to Israel and not just look at news and think you know what's actually going on in the country). Some palestinians have a problem with this and decide to act out violently. Other palestinians really just want to live their lives and be left alone but unfortunately are being used by their Arab neighbors for political games instead of actually being helped, so they're really stuck in a bind.

It really comes down to a huge problem with a complicated solution no one has figured out yet. Really it's an eternal struggle that has always been and will always be until someone brilliant enough comes ...

I just want to add, the palestinian people are really syrians, jordinians, egyptians, etc that were left there when the Jews wanted to come back to Israel. The countries refused to take their refugees because they would rather let their own people suffer to fight against Jews settling in Israel instead of showing actual love and concern to their own people. It's a better game if the enemy looks like the bad guy, especially since the world turns a blind eye to arab on arab crime.

/does anyone know how syria, jordan and egypt treat the palestinians?


Jordan kicked out 300K Palestinians back in 1970. King Hussein got tired of their terrorist crap in Jordan.

The Anti Semites never mention this fact....the Palestinians are despised by the rank-and-file Muslim. Muslim political leaders use Israel and Palestine as a way to divert peoples attention......but Muslims outside of Palestine see the Palestinians as spoiled and whiny. As a Pakistani immigrant once told me "hard for my countrymen to sympathize with Palestinians when they are wearing Adidas....and we go barefoot"
 
2013-04-08 05:29:23 AM

FloridaFarkTag: Of course...the left and anti-Semitism have always been hand in hand.....people forget that the Nazis were National Socialist German Workers Party.

And, Joseph Stalin was beginning a purge of all Soviet Jews before he died

All this Anti Israel nonsense is just setting up Holocaust II.


Hitler and Stalin were liberal because Nazis AND 'USSR' had socialist in the name! Never mind that neither actually PRACTICED socialism, and were extreme authoritarians more than anything else, they were bad, so they're automatically LIBERAL!

/Hint: It wasn't American liberals, for example, supporting Hitler pre-Pearl Harbor. It was wealthy, conservative businessmen - they LOVED the guy.
 
2013-04-08 06:47:26 AM

Amos Quito: Why is that, proteus_b?


Because those are the terms which are used by both sides in the area. Palestinians claim affinity with all Arabs and refer to themselves as such, and refer to the Israelis as the Jews. The Israelis likewise refer to those two parties as the Jews and the Arabs.
 
2013-04-08 06:51:20 AM
As a long time supporter of the Jews when I was younger, I feel disgusted in finding out how they actually are. Now I cheer when I see Palestinians have killed Jews.
 
2013-04-08 07:22:57 AM

super_grass: liam76: super_grass: liam76:I have no problem saying they should 'clean up their act' but when people toss out genocude, concentration camps or nazis they are going beyond calls for cleaning their act up. They are just lying about the situation, and I can't think of reason aside from antisemitism to do that.

Again, Tibet. They have race-riots regularly too.  Sometimes started by the Tibetans, sometimes the Chinese.

Whether or not the accusations are fitting or not is still up in the air. It's just interesting that there is so much cognitive dissonance between America's views on the two even though China/Israel use a lot of similar arguments.

Hawaii sort of applies too if you think about the state's history.

There is nothing "up in the air" about those accusations. If you think otherwise you are ignorant or a liar.

There is no "cognitive dissonance". Was Tibet used to stage attacks from neighboring countries that vowed to wipe out the Chinese? Did Tibet ever rain rockets on China? Did a party in Tibet that vowed to remove all the Chinese from China ever come to power?

It was, the U.S. funded Tibetan guerrillas against China. Communist China felt that Tibet would be a launching pad for foreign interests, and rationalize it by pointing out how much the living standards improved under Chinese rule - which is true.


Nevermind that happened in 1959, and hasn't ahppened again, re-read the underlined.

jaytkay: In 2006 four Israeli soldiers were killed.

In response Israel destroyed large portions of Beirut


That is some nice revesionism there.

Are you honetrly so ignorant of the situation that you had no idea rockets weere being fired from Beirut, or do you just like to gloss over that fact so you can paint Israel in a bad light?
 
2013-04-08 07:26:19 AM

Uncle Tractor: Israel is a democracy the same way Apartheid SA was a democracy; it isn't. The word you're looking for is "ethnocracy."


If that were true Israeli arabs wouldn't be able to vote.

You don't get to unilaterally determine who is an actual Israeli citizen so you can make up claioms of apartheid.  Well I guess you can, but people will clearly see you for the Anti-Semite you are.
 
2013-04-08 08:17:10 AM
Oh, good, another Internet dialogue of the deaf between the Zionist racist oppressors of the Palestinians and the Naziphile Jew-hating supporters of terrorism.  I'll bet a lot of problems get solved here.
 
2013-04-08 08:50:26 AM
Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?  Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.
 
2013-04-08 09:05:22 AM

SubBass49: Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?  Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.


This conflict has more than two sides.

No matter what Israel does the most violent and agressive movements in Palestine are going to have a lot of power as they are the ones getting most support from other mulim countries.
 
2013-04-08 09:07:50 AM
Either they're batshiat crazy like WBC or this is a false flag op designed to discredit them. Probably the former, since they've already been pretty much discredited. Kind of like PETA, a few core hacktivists with a legion of script-kiddie sheeple.
 
2013-04-08 09:44:01 AM

liam76: If that were true Israeli arabs wouldn't be able to vote.


The arabs of Gaza and the WB aren't allowed to vote.

You don't get to unilaterally determine who is an actual Israeli citizen so you can make up claioms of apartheid.

Israel has successfully raped Palestine, so now Israel has to marry her. Thanks to israeli colonization, the palestinians are de facto israelis.

Well I guess you can, but people will clearly see you for the Anti-Semite you are.

i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-08 09:48:10 AM

SubBass49: How do we get there?  Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.


Here's how we get there: The palestinians forget about creating a palestinian state and instead demand their rights as israeli citizens. IOW turn the whole thing into a civil rights movement. Israel will then have two options: take the mask off and once and for all show the world what a nasty regime it is, or (for once in their entire history) do the right thing and let the palestinians in.
 
2013-04-08 09:50:20 AM

Uncle Tractor: liam76: If that were true Israeli arabs wouldn't be able to vote.

The arabs of Gaza and the WB aren't allowed to vote.


The arabs of Gaza aren't Israeli citizens, why woudl they be allowed to vote in Israel?

You made a claim that it was based on ethnicity, if this was true then Israli Arabs woudl not be allowed to vote.


Uncle Tractor: Well I guess you can, but people will clearly see you for the Anti-Semite you are.

[i560.photobucket.com image 500x357]


You aren't an adult.  At least you aren't talking like one.  You are ignoring facts you don't like to push lies about it being an ethnocracy.  If you have soem other reason for your frequent lies abotu Israel I am all ears, but until then you have made a great case for being an antisemite in my book.
 
2013-04-08 09:58:08 AM

Uncle Tractor: liam76: If that were true Israeli arabs wouldn't be able to vote.

The arabs of Gaza and the WB aren't allowed to vote.

You don't get to unilaterally determine who is an actual Israeli citizen so you can make up claioms of apartheid.

Israel has successfully raped Palestine, so now Israel has to marry her. Thanks to israeli colonization, the palestinians are de facto israelis.

Well I guess you can, but people will clearly see you for the Anti-Semite you are.

[i560.photobucket.com image 500x357]


1. Have to be a citizen to vote, unless you are voting in the US
2. They were Jordainians and Egyptians before June 4th 1967, then overnight they became" Palistinians"
3. Remember Black September? good times. 1947? 1967? 1973?
4. you are a retard and should move out of your moms basement and learn something about the real world.
5.Why do you support a group that keeps slaves and treats women like property? Dhimi or full blow member of the death cult?
 
2013-04-08 10:20:46 AM

SubBass49: Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?  Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.


You're yet to specify exactly what it is that Israel is supposed to be doing to "change the dynamic" that doesn't first require that the Palestinians first stop firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Want to stop Palestinian children from being killed? Stop recruiting them as soldiers. Want shorter waits at checkpoints (basically border control)? Tell your compatriots to stop trying to smuggle weapons or sneak in as suicide bombers. Want better schools? Spend less time indoctrinating youth on why it's important to hate Israel and the value of martyrdom, and more time giving the next generation an education. Want better health care and infrastructure? Stop spending so damn much on weapons at the expense of essential services to Palestinian citizenry. Want a two-state solution? Recognize the existence of the State of Israel and accept Israel's open invitation to sit down and discuss the terms of the agreement. If the other party is not even open to dialog, where do you begin, specifically? What am I missing?
 
2013-04-08 11:35:50 AM

SubBass49: Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?  Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.


YOU sir, Are far too reasonable for Fark,
Seriously though. THIS x10000
 
2013-04-08 12:21:05 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: SubBass49: Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?   Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.

YOU sir, Are far too reasonable for Fark,
Seriously though. THIS x10000


Excuse me... but this argument of "they terrorize because they are victims" has been tried and is full of crap.
If I don't agree with a policy I don't strap a bomb to my chest and go out to kill as many women/children as I can in a mall.

Israel is not some big bully holding the Palestinians under it's thumb no matter how much you repeat that propaganda.
There are elements in the Palestinian community that wants ALL JEWS DEAD.  This much is written into the CHARTER of the RULING PARTY of Hamas.

You cannot ignore the ceaseless hatred and desire for blood that the Arabs have against the Jews.  This is not a "they are both wrong", so lets stop thinking about the issue or any nuance that is the HALLMARK OF A false-equivalency argument.

Let me bring you up to speed.  Hamas kills Gays.
Hamas kills Christians.
Hamas keep food/supplies from it's own citizens.


Hamas is supported by FOREIGN ARAB countries and therefore is not the David v. Goliath you pretend is going on with Israel v. Palestine.  The elements that have power from other countries are NOT PEACEFUL.  They KILL any Palestinian found to be working with Israel (they call them collaborators).

Lets be real about what Palestinian leadership is... HAMAS
By supporting the current Palestinian leadership you support killing Gays, Christians, and any non-conformists (women, Palestinian, etc.).
 
2013-04-08 12:48:32 PM

illannoyin: Meh. I've seen the Israelis get trolled like this a long time ago...

Link

Now, can we please change this to a hot Jew thread?

/Oy!


i.imgur.com
/thread
 
2013-04-08 01:20:01 PM
EsteeFlwrPot: I just want to add, the palestinian people are really syrians, jordinians, egyptians, etc that were left there when the Jews wanted to come back to Israel.


LOL!

At least the "Arabs" were THERE - in the region - and had been for countless generations.

Before 1947, there were no "Israelis". They were German Jews, Polish Jews, French Jews, Russian Jews, Latvian Jews, Austrian Jews... virtually NONE of which had set foot in "The Promised Land" for CENTURIES. Aside from a VERY small minority of Jews "native" to the area, all of the others  were Europeans and Asians who traveled thousands of miles to get to a place where they didn't belong.

The ONLY "claim" that they had to the land is that they were JEWS - by BLOOD (Political Zionism was largely an atheist movement).

The Jews that formed the core population of "Israel" were interlopers - most of which were driven there AGAINST THEIR WILL thanks to the actions of the Political Zionists that had been scheming to bring the "nation" to fruition for over 50 years.

Hitler was only a child when the Zionists began their "work".

Israel was founded on racist principles, and exists on racist principles. The "Jewish State" was contrived not to save Jews from persecution, but to prevent ASSIMILATION: For the greatest fear is not and never has been one of genocide, but that Jews will disappear *as a people* by attrition / assimilation - that they would simply cease identifying themselves AS Jews, and simply as "people".

The horror!
 
2013-04-08 01:32:44 PM
Anonymous jumped the shark when they supported OWS. Now they're just finalizing the deal.
 
2013-04-08 01:47:18 PM
Amos Quito:

Before 1947, there were no "Israelis". They were German Jews, Polish Jews, French Jews, Russian Jews, Latvian Jews, Austrian Jews... virtually NONE of which had set foot in "The Promised Land" for CENTURIES. Aside from a VERY small minority of Jews "native" to the area, all of the others  were Europeans and Asians who traveled thousands of miles to get to a place where they didn't belong.

The ONLY "claim" that they had to the land is that they were JEWS - by BLOOD (Political Zionism was largely an atheist movement).

The Jews that formed the core population of "Israel" were interlopers - most of which were driven there AGAINST THEIR WILL thanks to the actions of the Political Zionists that had been scheming to bring the "nation" to fruition for over 50 years.

Hitler was only a child when the Zionists began their "work".

Israel was founded on racist principles, and exists on racist principles. The "Jewish State" was contrived not to save Jews from persecution, but to prevent ASSIMILATION: For the greatest fear is not and never has been one of genocide, but that Jews will disappear *as a people* by attrition / assimilation - that they would simply cease identifying themselves AS Jews, and simply as "people".

The horror!


This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
2013-04-08 01:57:01 PM

NostroZ: sudo give me more cowbell: SubBass49: Put all ancient history aside for a second, and stop the bullshiat.

GOAL:  End the bloodshed and mistreatment of ANY people in the land known as Israel

Means of reaching that goal:  Both sides of the situation being given what they want, which is peace, prosperity, their own land where they can live by their own rules & laws.

How do we get there?   Right now one side holds the power, and one side doesn't.  In any situation of that nature, it rests upon the more powerful of the two parties to show dignity & maturity, and begin the process.  Not in ways that demean the other side, but in ways that make an honest effort without trying to carve out additional advantages.

Do the Palestinians have to cut out the bombings & such?  Of course.  Why do they bomb?  Because Israel continues to give them no hope for a future that's not under their boot heel.  Change that dynamic, and then we can actually get started on something meaningful & lasting.

YOU sir, Are far too reasonable for Fark,
Seriously though. THIS x10000

Excuse me... but this argument of "they terrorize because they are victims" has been tried and is full of crap.
If I don't agree with a policy I don't strap a bomb to my chest and go out to kill as many women/children as I can in a mall.


No, you just do it with helicopters from the air.

Israel is not some big bully holding the Palestinians under it's thumb no matter how much you repeat that propaganda.

Well we can go back and forth with the "no, it isn't" "yeah it is" "no it isn't"... but yeah, it really kinda is.

There are elements in the Palestinian community that wants ALL JEWS DEAD.  This much is written into the CHARTER of the RULING PARTY of Hamas.

Right, well would you be surprised if I were to direct you to an op-ed in which the son of the former Israel prime minister explicitly declared that he wanted ALL PALESTINIANS DEAD. There are crazy people endorsing genocide on both sides of this.

You cannot ignore the ceaseless hatred and desire for blood that the Arabs have against the Jews.  This is not a "they are both wrong", so lets stop thinking about the issue or any nuance that is the HALLMARK OF A false-equivalency argument.

I never said that it was a "they are both wrong" situation, and I'm not by any means drawing a moral equivalency between the two sides. There is, indeed, a moral high ground here, and you're not standing on it.

Let me bring you up to speed.

No, let me bring YOU up to speed. In terms of respecting the right of others to exist; Who was it that applied for UN recognition as a nation state recently, and was only narrowly accepted as HAVING THE RIGHT TO EXIST?.... I'm pretty sure Israel's existence is pretty well recognized right now. Palestine not so much.


Hamas is supported by FOREIGN ARAB countries and therefore is not ...

Oh wow dude, just wow.... so Israel is not supported militarily by any particular foreign power?

NostroZ: By supporting the current Palestinian leadership you support killing Gays, Christians, and any non-conformists (women, Palestinian, etc.).


Supporting the current Palestinian leadership? no, I wouldn't say that, but supporting the idea that it should have the right to exist as a nation state with well-defined borders without Israeli troops tearing down houses and snatching land anytime they feel like it.

What I am supporting is a system in which people are treated equally, regardless of race, and are given equal access to citizenship and legal protections.
What you are supporting is modern-day apartheid.
 
2013-04-08 02:39:24 PM

Joe Blowme: 1. Have to be a citizen to vote, unless you are voting in the US
2. They were Jordainians and Egyptians before June 4th 1967, then overnight they became" Palistinians"
3. Remember Black September? good times. 1947? 1967? 1973?
4. you are a retard and should move out of your moms basement and learn something about the real world.
5.Why do you support a group that keeps slaves and treats women like property? Dhimi or full blow member of the death cult?


1 & 2: They are citizens of the land they live on, because that's where they've lived their entire lives (even though the israelis may have moved them about a bit). Israel claims to be a democracy. Therefore all citizens have the right to vote. This includes the palestinians / israeli arabs.
3: You mean the times when they tried to reclaim the land that had been stolen from them? Yeah, I remember. What does that have to do with anything? (esp Black Sept, which only involved a few people)
4: Take your own advice.
5: You sound teabagger.
 
2013-04-08 02:46:26 PM

Uncle Tractor: anuran: Hating Jews is trendy again. All you have to do is call them "Zionists" and sky's the limit


i560.photobucket.com

i49.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-08 02:50:27 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: Right, well would you be surprised if I were to direct you to an op-ed in which the son of the former Israel prime minister explicitly declared that he wanted ALL PALESTINIANS DEAD. There are crazy people endorsing genocide on both sides of this.


I am sorry when did people in Israel start voting for who gets to be son of the former prime minister?  Because unless they do that he is just some random nutbag and not an elected representative with support of most the people calling for that.  See the difference.

/plus he never sadi all palestenains dead.  he talked abotu cutting off all electricity, oil etc to stop the attacks and if that didn;t work flattening gaza. He didn't say kill every palestenians as elected leaders of Palestine support for jews of Israel.
 
2013-04-08 03:52:24 PM

 noitsnot: EsteeFlwrPot: So no one here knows anything about Ancient Israel, Judea, the kingdoms of David and Solomon, when the first and second temples were built, destroyed by the Romans.. Jews kicked out of the land and left to roam around the world, small population of Jews always remained, etc?

Apparently Jews only lived on the land of Israel after the holocaust and the only time a nation tried to exterminate Jews was Germany in the 1940s. Nothing about the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Spanish, etc. Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why?

I see Fark is the perfect place to read rational discussions and opinions based on history being thoroughly recalled through debate and intensive research.

You mean Canaan?

upload.wikimedia.org


Thank you.  I've been waiting all day for this.


      Does anyone even know who named the land Palestine and why?

The Philistines?  I mean before they were smote by the Israelites.
 
2013-04-08 04:22:21 PM

liam76: sudo give me more cowbell: Right, well would you be surprised if I were to direct you to an op-ed in which the son of the former Israel prime minister explicitly declared that he wanted ALL PALESTINIANS DEAD. There are crazy people endorsing genocide on both sides of this.

I am sorry when did people in Israel start voting for who gets to be son of the former prime minister?  Because unless they do that he is just some random nutbag and not an elected representative with support of most the people calling for that.  See the difference. who's opinion seemed reasonable enough within Israeli society to be published in a national newspaper.


FTFY.

/plus he never sadi all palestenains dead.  he talked abotu cutting off all electricity, oil etc to stop the attacks and if that didn;t work flattening gaza. He didn't say kill every palestenians as elected leaders of Palestine support for jews of Israel.

Ummm... did you read the part where he said "FLATTEN ALL OF GAZA" ... cuz I'm pretty sure there are people living in gaza, and I'm pretty sure that dropping a nuclear weapon there would pretty much kill everyone.

So explain to me how you think it's normal and ok that someone can publish an op-ed column in a national newspapers saying "hey guys, I think we should nuke these people and kill them all. Just an idea -just throwin' that out there.", and the rest of the society is all like "yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable idea, maybe we won't actually do it, but yeah, let's talk about it, cuz it's a totally reasonable and not-at-all-farking-crazy idea"

and then explain to me how this is a society in which racism against the potentially-nuked-upon people is not endemic.
 
2013-04-08 04:33:14 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would be so desperate to claim a few square miles of sand, scorpions, and sea water in the first place.
 
2013-04-08 04:43:40 PM
But without Jews, there won't be any comedy!
 
2013-04-08 05:31:06 PM
Amos Quito:

Israel was founded on racist principles

Cool.  Just like us.  Read Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution.
 
2013-04-08 05:48:41 PM

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: friday13: Considering this is DailyFail, I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt...

Kosher salt?


Wait, there's UNkosher salt?  I didn't think a combination of Sodium and Cloride could be unkosher, unless of course it touched a pig or clam or something...
 
2013-04-08 05:52:51 PM
sudo give me more cowbell:

So explain to me how you think it's normal and ok that someone can publish an op-ed column in a national newspapers saying "hey guys, I think we should nuke these people and kill them all. Just an idea -just throwin' that out there.", and the rest of the society is all like "yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable idea, maybe we won't actually do it, but yeah, let's talk about it, cuz it's a totally reasonable and not-at-all-farking-crazy idea"

and then explain to me how this is a society in which racism against the potentially-nuked-upon people is not endemic.


Yes, because in civilized countries like the United States, where audiences clamor for calm, reasoned, level-headed debate, only moderate views shared by the entire population are presented in mainstream media op-eds.
 
2013-04-08 05:59:23 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would be so desperate to claim a few square miles of sand, scorpions, and sea water in the first place.


Cuz there's this wall, see, with the wailing and the kvetching and the shaking and so forth.
 
2013-04-08 06:03:34 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: What I am supporting is a system in which people are treated equally, regardless of race, and are given equal access to citizenship and legal protections.
What you are supporting is modern-day apartheid.


You support fair treatment how?

By supporting Hamas?  A religious group that kills gays?
What do you do besides railing against Israel?  Seriously man.  Do you have ANY connection to the land or the people there?
Or is this just your way of political masturbation?

How do you support fair treatment?  Are you trying to force Jordan to accept their Palestinians as citizens?
I hear lots of hot air coming from your side... about what you would do, what you would support, but REALLY MAN... What HAVE YOU DONE?  Who have you actually supported?  Organization name please.
 
2013-04-08 06:09:37 PM

ArmoredFelix: As a long time supporter of the Jews when I was younger, I feel disgusted in finding out how they actually are. Now I cheer when I see Palestinians have killed Jews.


Well, if you don't have a dog in the fight, how about you just not worry about it?  It's not required that you pick one side to kill the other.  That's the fallacy of False Choice.
 
2013-04-08 06:16:41 PM

tirob: Amos Quito:

Israel was founded on racist principles

Cool.  Just like us.  Read Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution.



1. I see mo mention of "race" in there
2. See Amendment 14 (1868)
3. I thought "Western", "1st World" "Democracies" were supposed to have moved beyond such antiquated barbarism
4.

upload.wikimedia.org

5. Israel continues the practice - and makes no apologies for so doing

But it's ISRAEL, so it's all cool, right?
 
2013-04-08 06:23:18 PM

sudo give me more cowbell: liam76: sudo give me more cowbell: Right, well would you be surprised if I were to direct you to an op-ed in which the son of the former Israel prime minister explicitly declared that he wanted ALL PALESTINIANS DEAD. There are crazy people endorsing genocide on both sides of this.

I am sorry when did people in Israel start voting for who gets to be son of the former prime minister?  Because unless they do that he is just some random nutbag and not an elected representative with support of most the people calling for that.  See the difference. who's opinion seemed reasonable enough within Israeli society to be published in a national newspaper.

FTFY.

So

you are going to completely ignore the difference between the op ed of an unelected person and the stance of the leading elected party?


sudo give me more cowbell: /plus he never sadi all palestenains dead. he talked abotu cutting off all electricity, oil etc to stop the attacks and if that didn;t work flattening gaza. He didn't say kill every palestenians as elected leaders of Palestine support for jews of Israel.

Ummm... did you read the part where he said "FLATTEN ALL OF GAZA" ... cuz I'm pretty sure there are people living in gaza, and I'm pretty sure that dropping a nuclear weapon there would pretty much kill everyone.


Flatten doesn't mean kill every single person.  Plus he claimed "kill all Palestinians" when many fo them don't live in Gaza.

He never said drop a nuke, he commented that was how the US won in Japan.

Also you are missing how he talked about cutting off electyricity, fuel, etc.  Not something you do if you plan on just killing everyone.

sudo give me more cowbell: So explain to me how you think it's normal and ok that someone can publish an op-ed column in a national newspapers saying "hey guys, I think we should nuke these people and kill them all. Just an idea -just throwin' that out there.", and the rest of the society is all like "yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable idea, maybe we won't actually do it, but yeah, let's talk about it, cuz it's a totally reasonable and not-at-all-farking-crazy idea"


I never said it was normal or ok.  I am just pointing out it isn't as crazy as you said it was, ie killing all Palestinians.


sudo give me more cowbell: and then explain to me how this is a society in which racism against the potentially-nuked-upon people is not endemic


Well, once again I never claimed they have no problems with racism.

This is the problem with people like you.  You try and pretend both sides are the same (the desire to wipe out the other is th esame) I call you out on it, and you pretend I am arguing their attitude is good or ok.  I can disagree with both and recognize one is a bigger impediment to peace.
 
2013-04-08 06:26:10 PM
ArmoredFelix: As a long time supporter of the Jews when I was younger, I feel disgusted in finding out how they actually are. Now I cheer when I see Palestinians have killed Jews.

Cheering on the death of innocent civilians and death in general is precisely what's wrong with the part of the world.
I'm sure you would have been CHEERING in the street on 9/11 along with your compatriots who also cheer at death of Jews.  Glad you've found yourself good company, friend.

/People who cheer on death make me sick
 
2013-04-08 06:57:40 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito:

Israel was founded on racist principles

Cool.  Just like us.  Read Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution.

1. I see mo mention of "race" in there



No, it isn't mentioned explicitly at all.  But I cannot believe that you don't know that the "all other persons," "three-fifths" of whom counted towards apportionment of representatives and direct taxes, referred to black slaves.

Amos Quito:

2. See Amendment 14 (1868)
3. I thought "Western", "1st World" "Democracies" were supposed to have moved beyond such antiquated barbarism
4.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x275]

5. Israel continues the practice - and makes no apologies for so doing

But it's ISRAEL, so it's all cool, right?



I challenge you to find one thing I have ever uttered on this blog in defense of *any* kind of racism, the Israeli variety not excepted.

It would be nice to think that the 14th Amendment ended official racism here, but I for one believe that there is some evidence that it didn't.  Since the issue of this thread is Israel, I'll refrain from citing chapter and verse.

Yeah, we've elected a black President.  Score one for us.  I'm no Israel expert, but I am sure I have read somewhere that while there have been no Arab prime ministers of that country, there are and for some time have been Israeli Druzes (Arabic speaking people) in high positions in its government, including general officers in the army.  (Sarcasm on) Which proves that Israelis have come almost as far as we have in this regard, of course (sarcasm off).
 
2013-04-08 08:24:35 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Lehk: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "The Holocaust" as mass/pop media depict it, is on par with Star Wars as one of the greatest pieces of fiction of the 20th century.

Stormfront is that way ----------->

Cute


*ploink*
 
2013-04-08 09:57:41 PM
 
2013-04-08 11:01:46 PM

tirob: Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito:

Israel was founded on racist principles

Cool.  Just like us.  Read Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution.

1. I see mo mention of "race" in there


No, it isn't mentioned explicitly at all.  But I cannot believe that you don't know that the "all other persons," "three-fifths" of whom counted towards apportionment of representatives and direct taxes, referred to black slaves.



Obviously (though there were free blacks that counted as 100% a "person" even then).

I knew to what what you were referring, but times have changed, attitudes have changed, and policy has changed. One cannot compare 1776 with 2013 - or even 1947. The problem is that Israel has NOT kept up with "the times" in terms of tolerance and acceptance. They remain grounded in their bigoted, ethnocentric - and yes - racist attitudes and policies to this day.

So what? they say. What about Saudi Arabia and this country and that country and blah blah blah...! Well, those countries are not simultaneously declaring that they are enlightened, Western-style democracies as they commit their shenanigans, are they?


tirob: I challenge you to find one thing I have ever uttered on this blog in defense of *any* kind of racism, the Israeli variety not excepted.



The snark wasn't directed at you specifically, tirob. I've found you to be a reasonable person, but I don't buy the "you did 200 years ago then so we have every right to do it NOW" argument that is constantly regurgitated by the apologists. The reason that a "One State" solution will NEVER be accepted by Israel is that they would almost immediately be outnumbered, and the "JEWISH STATE" would immediately cease to be Jewish Ruled and controlled, defeating the very purpose of the drive of Political Zionism.

A "Two State" solution? Yeah, that'd work - for about 15 minutes - until the Israeli's found an excuse to DECLARE WAR on the Pallies, and, unconstrained by the "occupation accusation", crushing them mercilessly with overwhelming force - and then it's back to taking the land.

The shiattest part of this whole deal is that what they do reflects HORRIBLY on ALL JEWS, no matter where they are or what they believe - and it ALSO reflects HORRIBLY on the US, who is (rightfully) seen as supporting the pernicious debauchery of this nightmare creation of Zionist Zealots.

I wish I could say that I could offer a reasonable, practical solution to the mess over there, but I'm afraid that the Zionists have entrenched themselves too deeply - they CAN'T turn back, there IS no forward, and they have made so many enemies that ANYONE who is seen as aiding and abetting - including US -  is going to reap the whirlwind in the judgement of history.

As for the future?

upload.wikimedia.org

Hold on to your hat.

Looks like it's gonna' be a hell of a ride.
 
2013-04-08 11:18:25 PM

owlie: Amos Quito:

Before 1947, there were no "Israelis". They were German Jews, Polish Jews, French Jews, Russian Jews, Latvian Jews, Austrian Jews... virtually NONE of which had set foot in "The Promised Land" for CENTURIES. Aside from a VERY small minority of Jews "native" to the area, all of the others  were Europeans and Asians who traveled thousands of miles to get to a place where they didn't belong.

The ONLY "claim" that they had to the land is that they were JEWS - by BLOOD (Political Zionism was largely an atheist movement).

The Jews that formed the core population of "Israel" were interlopers - most of which were driven there AGAINST THEIR WILL thanks to the actions of the Political Zionists that had been scheming to bring the "nation" to fruition for over 50 years.

Hitler was only a child when the Zionists began their "work".

Israel was founded on racist principles, and exists on racist principles. The "Jewish State" was contrived not to save Jews from persecution, but to prevent ASSIMILATION: For the greatest fear is not and never has been one of genocide, but that Jews will disappear *as a people* by attrition / assimilation - that they would simply cease identifying themselves AS Jews, and simply as "people".

The horror!

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.



Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.
 
2013-04-09 12:17:37 AM

Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.


Did you really go there? That's cute.
 
2013-04-09 01:07:29 AM

owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.


Yeah, I really went there.

4.bp.blogspot.com

When an airliner crashes in the US, personnel from the NTSB immediately respond to begin investigating the incident.

Their job is not to tell us how many people died, how badly they may have suffered, or to create a tear-jerking melodrama bemoaning the poor, innocent victims, and how they didn't DESERVE to die. No, their job is to try to figure out what went wrong - the specific goal being TO PREVENT SUCH TRAGEDIES FROM RECURRING.

Ideally, it shouldn't matter to them whether it was a faulty electrical circuit, bad weather, an undetected hairline crack in a turbine blade, or whether the cockpit crew was coked-up and getting blowjobs from the flight attendants.

Irrelevant.

Their job is to discover the root-cause of the problem in the hopes of implementing policy and procedure that prevent it happening again - and if some individual or some company's reputation is "tarnished" in the process - if someone's FEELINGS are hurt, too farking bad. If you REALLY want to solve the problem and prevent another disaster, you'd better check your butthurt at the door, and tell it like it is, otherwise, you're just jerking off.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

-- Albert Einstein


/Are we there yet?
 
2013-04-09 01:33:50 AM

Amos Quito: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Yeah, I really went there.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 258x145]

When an airliner crashes in the US, personnel from the NTSB immediately respond to begin investigating the incident.

Their job is not to tell us how many people died, how badly they may have suffered, or to create a tear-jerking melodrama bemoaning the poor, innocent victims, and how they didn't DESERVE to die. No, their job is to try to figure out what went wrong - the specific goal being TO PREVENT SUCH TRAGEDIES FROM RECURRING.

Ideally, it shouldn't matter to them whether it was a faulty electrical circuit, bad weather, an undetected hairline crack in a turbine blade, or whether the cockpit crew was coked-up and getting blowjobs from the flight attendants.

Irrelevant.

Their job is to discover the root-cause of the problem in the hopes of implementing policy and procedure that prevent it happening again - and if some individual or some company's reputation is "tarnished" in the process - if someone's FEELINGS are hurt, too farking bad. If you REALLY want to solve the problem and prevent another disaster, you'd better check your butthurt at the door, and tell it like it is, otherwise, you're just jerking off.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

-- Albert Einstein


/Are we there yet?


While I may not agree with you, blaming the victim is a pretty tidy way to wrap up every genocide anywhere, ever. So, well done.
 
2013-04-09 01:45:45 AM

owlie: Amos Quito: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Yeah, I really went there.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 258x145]

When an airliner crashes in the US, personnel from the NTSB immediately respond to begin investigating the incident.

Their job is not to tell us how many people died, how badly they may have suffered, or to create a tear-jerking melodrama bemoaning the poor, innocent victims, and how they didn't DESERVE to die. No, their job is to try to figure out what went wrong - the specific goal being TO PREVENT SUCH TRAGEDIES FROM RECURRING.

Ideally, it shouldn't matter to them whether it was a faulty electrical circuit, bad weather, an undetected hairline crack in a turbine blade, or whether the cockpit crew was coked-up and getting blowjobs from the flight attendants.

Irrelevant.

Their job is to discover the root-cause of the problem in the hopes of implementing policy and procedure that prevent it happening again - and if some individual or some company's reputation is "tarnished" in the process - if someone's FEELINGS are hurt, too farking bad. If you REALLY want to solve the problem and prevent another disaster, you'd better check your butthurt at the door, and tell it like it is, otherwise, you're just jerking off.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

-- Albert Einstein


/Are we there yet?

While I may not agree with you, blaming the victim is a pretty ...


But why does it keep happening?
 
2013-04-09 01:45:48 AM

owlie: Amos Quito: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Yeah, I really went there.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 258x145]

When an airliner crashes in the US, personnel from the NTSB immediately respond to begin investigating the incident.

Their job is not to tell us how many people died, how badly they may have suffered, or to create a tear-jerking melodrama bemoaning the poor, innocent victims, and how they didn't DESERVE to die. No, their job is to try to figure out what went wrong - the specific goal being TO PREVENT SUCH TRAGEDIES FROM RECURRING.

Ideally, it shouldn't matter to them whether it was a faulty electrical circuit, bad weather, an undetected hairline crack in a turbine blade, or whether the cockpit crew was coked-up and getting blowjobs from the flight attendants.

Irrelevant.

Their job is to discover the root-cause of the problem in the hopes of implementing policy and procedure that prevent it happening again - and if some individual or some company's reputation is "tarnished" in the process - if someone's FEELINGS are hurt, too farking bad. If you REALLY want to solve the problem and prevent another disaster, you'd better check your butthurt at the door, and tell it like it is, otherwise, you're just jerking off.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

-- Albert Einstein


/Are we there yet?


While I may not agree with you, blaming the victim is a pretty tidy way to wrap up every genocide anywhere, ever. So, well done.


www.searchrobot.net

FARKING BASTARDS!

They made the bridge too low...

ON PURPOSE!


/Why do they hate me???
 
2013-04-09 02:21:17 AM
Amos Quito:

/Why do they hate me???

That's a great question. Now you have me wondering why Nazis hated homosexuals, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, and physically and mentally disabled persons. Surely they did something to bring it upon themselves, as did Armenians and Bosnian Muslims. Oh, and rape victims, but don't even get me started on those sluts.
 
2013-04-09 02:39:34 AM

owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.


Is this a deflection to avoid answering?

In my conversations with seemingly neutral observers it is a valid historical question.  And IMO without a sincere, meaningful discussion of "why", "never again" is empty rhetoric.
 
2013-04-09 02:45:42 AM

Frederick: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Is this a deflection to avoid answering?

In my conversations with seemingly neutral observers it is a valid historical question.  And IMO without a sincere, meaningful discussion of "why", "never again" is empty rhetoric.


Deflection? To suggest that there's some deeply rooted dysfunction among Jewish people that has persisted for millennia which justifies their persecution is a functional definition of antisemitism.
 
2013-04-09 03:46:50 AM

owlie: Frederick: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Is this a deflection to avoid answering?

In my conversations with seemingly neutral observers it is a valid historical question.  And IMO without a sincere, meaningful discussion of "why", "never again" is empty rhetoric.

Deflection? To suggest that there's some deeply rooted dysfunction among Jewish people that has persisted for millennia which justifies their persecution is a functional definition of antisemitism.


I didnt hear anyone suggest that in this conversation.  Is it your opinion there is a deeply rooted dysfunction among Jewish people?

From what I have read the reasons given for repeated exiles of Jews is largely due to finance/economics.  Now, that is from the point of view of the exilers -Spanish, German, English.  I think it is a worthwhile conversation to have because, for example, if the Spanish are saying Jews are being exiled for their implementation of usury, that might be something a non-Catholic should be sensitive to in a predominantly Catholic society.  Again just an example.

But I find it disingenuous for Jews to then later ignore the reasons given by their exilers and to simply suggest the exile is due to antisemitism.  This tactic is similar to the United States ignoring stated reasons from Al Qeada for their terrorism and instead saying "they hate us for our freedoms".

Also if laws or customs are being broken, resulting in exile, it is again disingenuous to equate exile with persecution.
 
2013-04-09 04:35:28 AM
Frederick:

Deflection? To  suggest that there's some deeply rooted dysfunction among Jewish people that has persisted for millennia which justifies their persecution is a functional definition of antisemitism.

I didnt hear anyone suggest that in this conversation.  Is it your opinion there is a deeply rooted dysfunction among Jewish people?

From what I have read the reasons given for repeated exiles of Jews is largely due to finance/economics.  Now, that is from the point of view of the exilers -Spanish, German, English.  I think it is a worthwhile conversation to have because, for example, if the Spanish are saying Jews are being exiled for their implementation of usury, that might be something a non-Catholic should be sensitive to in a predominantly Catholic society.  Again just an example.

But I find it disingenuous for Jews to then later ignore the reasons given by their exilers and to simply suggest the exile is due to antisemitism.  This tactic is similar to the United States ignoring stated reasons from Al Qeada for their terrorism and instead saying "they hate us for our freedoms".

Also if laws or customs are being broken, resulting in exile, it is again disingenuous to equate exile with persecution.


How is this not an extension of the "If girls don't want to get date raped, they shouldn't get drunk and wear short skirts" argument? Sure, there'd be a lot less date rape if women didn't imbibe, but it's not a very satisfying solution.

With respect to Jews, you really don't have to make stuff up as the historical records are all right there. Usury was forbidden to Christians, but not to Jews. Strictly speaking, as a Christian you can borrow money at interest; you just can't lend. The only sensitivity (if you've ever studied group dynamics) stems from people's innate tendency to be distrustful of The Other. So how do you resolve that? Maybe you can come up with a better answer than "assimilation", but if not, you would do well to keep in mind where assimilation has not been successful for Jews. Spain convinced quite a lot of Jews to convert to Christianity, but those who were able to resist were perceived as a negative influence on the conversos, and so it was decided that all of them should be expelled. German Jewry is well known for having assimilated, and it isn't even rare to hear about individuals who were Jews by birth yet dissociated themselves so much from their ancestry that they were active collaborators in Jewish persecution and self-proclaimed antisemites. Still, you could be a fully assimilated practicing Christian with one Jewish grandparent, and still find yourself in line for the gas chambers. (And anyway, assimilating a culture away is sometimes called ethnocide, and surely no one wants to be accused of that.)

I will also add, with unfarklike honesty, that it's quite sickening to me to have a conversation around what a victimized group should do not to stop being victimized, but to stop being hated. Sickening because the hatred is irrational (not just antisemitism, but racism and homophobia too), yet here you are picking apart what the victims do to provoke that hatred and how they can change it, as if you could ever exhaust all the reasons someone might come up with to hate.
 
2013-04-09 05:58:37 AM

owlie: How is this not an extension of the "If girls don't want to get date raped, they shouldn't get drunk and wear short skirts" argument? Sure, there'd be a lot less date rape if women didn't imbibe, but it's not a very satisfying solution.


I can see that aspect from a Jewish perspective.  But at what point is the victim playing with fire, so to speak?

owlie: I will also add, with unfarklike honesty, that it's quite sickening to me to have a conversation around what a victimized group should do not to stop being victimized, but to stop being hated. Sickening because the hatred is irrational

...

I agree there is significant historical hatred for Jews especially in Christian nations.  And because much of it stems from religion I'd also agree the hatred is largely irrational.  But I think to dismiss all of histories exiles of Jews to hatred is an oversimplification and risks missing many valid points that could benefit posterity.

To use your example from above; if the drunk and provocatively dressed girl does get date raped even though she broke no laws, I'd still expect her to change her behavior before she takes the stance of "never again".  And I wouldnt object too vociferously if you argued I was wrong for thinking that; but I would object if you boiled my stance down to some form of hatred.

/I appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion maturely with you
 
2013-04-09 06:00:14 AM

owlie: Yes, because in civilized countries like the United States, where audiences clamor for calm, reasoned, level-headed debate, only moderate views shared by the entire population are presented in mainstream media op-eds.


No, but if you'll read the preceeding posts you'll notice that my point was that there are people in positions of authority both in Palestine and Israel who exhibit hateful, genocidal attitudes towards the others. If we disregard the crazies on both sides, then we can start to improve the situation.

NostroZ: By supporting Hamas? A religious group that kills gays?
What do you do besides railing against Israel? Seriously man. Do you have ANY connection to the land or the people there?
Or is this just your way of political masturbation?


k, several things:
(1) No I don't support Hamas, they seem pretty crazy, but their craziness is the product of contempt from years of oppression and mistreatment much in the same way the ANC had some real nutcases. It doesn't make it ok, but it's kind of understandable.
(2) What connection do I have? Like I need to have a personal relationship to people over there to feel that the way  they are being treated is wrong? Guess what, I don't personally know anybody who survived the holocaust, so am I not allowed to think that that was a bad thing? If you must know, however, yes, I do have friends in Lebanon who have family members who were killed in 2006 when Israel decided it would be fun to start dropping bombs in residential neighbourhoods.

How do you support fair treatment?

Right now, if you're Jewish, you can claim Israeli citizenship and come live there regardless of whether you've ever had any connection to the area in you(or your family's) life. If you're palestinian and your family has lived on a spot for generations, you can get told to GTFO and watch while your house gets bulldozed anytime Netanyahu feels like he wants to grab some more land that every other developped nation on earth agrees does not belong to Israel.
Meaning if you are born into one race you are given special priveleges, and if you are born into another race you are demoted to a lower class of citizenship. I think that's unfair -does that make me antisemitic?

liam76: This is the problem with people like you. You try and pretend both sides are the same (the desire to wipe out the other is th esame) I call you out on it, and you pretend I am arguing their attitude is good or ok. I can disagree with both and recognize one is a bigger impediment to peace.


No I don't. I made it very clear here that the moral failures in this situation are not symmetric. At this point, Israel happens to be the one holding all the weapons and could therefore take the initiative to treat the less powerful party with a basic level of human decency. Instead the Israeli government has chosen to repeatedly shiat on the basic human rights of a bunch of people who don't have anything to fight back with.
Do you think that the black and white South-African attitudes represented morally equal and equivalent principles in the era of apartheid? no. Neither do I.
And if you want to talk about the biggest impediments to peace, why don't you tell your friends in Israel to stop stealing land by expanding settlements in every direction, and then we can talk about the biggest impediment's to peace. Until then, STFU.
 
2013-04-09 06:53:02 AM

Amos Quito: The shiattiest part of this whole deal is that what they do reflects HORRIBLY on ALL JEWS, no matter where they are or what they believe


In your mind, apparently.  I for one fail to see why even the most pernicious acts committed by Israelis in some town in the West Bank should reflect on Sammy the owner of the corner store in Brooklyn, or Dr. Goldstein the dentist in Chicago, or even Mr. Weissberg the big businessman in San Francisco, unless they happen to be active supporters of Israel.  Or at least I don't see why such acts should reflect on them any more than they do on anyone else here.

A lot of people who critique Israel these days will tell you that they are not anti-Jewish, only anti-Zionist.  And many such people are what they say they are, no doubt about that.  But forgive me if I see a couple of problems that frequently crop up when it comes to modern anti-Zionism.  One is that "Zionist" has turned into a term that can mean just about anything these days.  And another is that there are still plenty of people out there whose distinction between "Zionist" and "Jew" is quite blurred.  I don't know whether that is true of you, but I think that the comment that I quoted is characteristic of such thinking.

Amos Quito: I wish I could say that I could offer a reasonable, practical solution to the mess over there


I'll broach one that I've made a move in the direction of alluding to before on this blog:  We could take in as immigrants here a million or two million Jewish Israelis.  This would severely weaken Israel and might even put a stop to its policy of colonizing the "1967 territories" in the West Bank.  I'm sure a lot of Palestinians would be delighted if we did this.  But I don't see much support for such a policy here from any quarter.
 
2013-04-09 07:17:56 AM

NostroZ: Seriously man. Do you have ANY connection to the land or the people there?
Or is this just your way of political masturbation?


oh yeah, and btw, every time I pay taxes I'm helping supply the Israeli government with weapons to continue committing crimes. When my government stops paying the bills for Israel's weapons, then maybe you can try to claim that I have no "dog in the fight" -as if that argument even made any sense in the first place, which it doesn't.
 
2013-04-09 07:35:39 AM

Frederick: owlie: How is this not an extension of the "If girls don't want to get date raped, they shouldn't get drunk and wear short skirts" argument? Sure, there'd be a lot less date rape if women didn't imbibe, but it's not a very satisfying solution.

I can see that aspect from a Jewish perspective.  But at what point is the victim playing with fire, so to speak?


I don't see a problem with the analogy. A woman should be able to drink and dress as she pleases without fear of rape. The point is that she could change, and indeed many women do drink a little less and cover up a little more because of the potential rape in the back of their minds, but I'd rather live in a society where a woman doesn't have to think more about her level of intoxication or the provocativeness of her clothes than any man. Attempting to reduce the level of harm to the victimized group without addressing the irrational inequality (that a woman's state of inebriation and her clothing have some bearing on whether or not it's okay to rape her), doesn't actually solve the societal problem. (And yes, men are raped too, and sometimes women rape men, etc. The example obviously holds for all groups, but language makes accounting for all gender situations very tedious.)

owlie: I will also add, with unfarklike honesty, that it's quite sickening to me to have a conversation around what a victimized group should do not to stop being victimized, but to stop being hated. Sickening because the hatred is irrational...

I agree there is significant historical hatred for Jews especially in Christian nations.  And because much of it stems from religion I'd also agree the hatred is largely irrational.  But I think to dismiss all of histories exiles of Jews to hatred is an oversimplification and risks missing many valid points that could benefit posterity.


It's not an oversimplification, but it is a generalization, and a good one. I challenge you to examine the long, depressing history of Jewish exile and find rational reasons for the expulsion.

To use your example from above; if the drunk and provocatively dressed girl does get date raped even though she broke no laws, I'd still expect her to change her behavior before she takes the stance of "never again".  And I wouldnt object too vociferously if you argued I was wrong for thinking that; but I would object if you boiled my stance down to some form of hatred.

I think you understand by this point that I wouldn't argue a woman is date raped out of hate, but rather that the rape is the outcome of the perpetrator's (and apologists') irrational justification that it's permissible to rape girls who behave and dress a certain way.
 
2013-04-09 07:38:40 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: owlie: Yes, because in civilized countries like the United States, where audiences clamor for calm, reasoned, level-headed debate, only moderate views shared by the entire population are presented in mainstream media op-eds.

No, but if you'll read the preceeding posts you'll notice that my point was that there are people in positions of authority both in Palestine and Israel who exhibit hateful, genocidal attitudes towards the others. If we disregard the crazies on both sides, then we can start to improve the situation.


Yeah, only the person who posted the op-ed isn't in a position of leadership. Meanwhile, within Israeli leadership, anything that would count as a "hateful, genocidal attitude" is rare, but describes quite well the platform of the ruling Hamas party.
 
2013-04-09 07:45:58 AM

Amos Quito: FARKING BASTARDS!

They made the bridge too low...

ON PURPOSE!


/Why do they hate me???


This clown posts pictures like this when talking abotu causes for things like th ehoocaust then cries when you point out he believes the Jews were responsible for the holocaust.


Frederick: Is this a deflection to avoid answering?

In my conversations with seemingly neutral observers it is a valid historical question. And IMO without a sincere, meaningful discussion of "why", "never again" is empty rhetoric


"Why" is kind of tough to get to with the crowd that needs convincing it even happened.

But I am bored, so please why don't you enlighten us as to why you think it happened?
 
2013-04-09 08:07:36 AM

sudo give me more cowbell: No I don't. I made it very clear here that the moral failures in this situation are not symmetric. At this point, Israel happens to be the one holding all the weapons and could therefore take the initiative to treat the less powerful party with a basic level of human decency. Instead the Israeli government has chosen to repeatedly shiat on the basic human rights of a bunch of people who don't have anything to fight back with.


They aren't holding all the weapons.

Before they were lobbing rockets they were using suicide bombers, nessecetaiting the checkpoints and walls to keep the m out of Israel. They had one opf the fastest growing enconomies in the ME before the Palestenians ruined their chances fo working in Israel by taking advantage of easy border crossings to run suicide missions.

sudo give me more cowbell: Do you think that the black and white South-African attitudes represented morally equal and equivalent principles in the era of apartheid? no. Neither do I.


Not in any way releveant. White SA's thought they were superior to black SA hence wanted them to have no olitical power. Israel has arab voters and they even sit ont he supreme court. Their opposition to Palestenains citizenship stems fromt hem not being ISraeli and wanting to wipe out everything that made Israel what it is.

sudo give me more cowbell: And if you want to talk about the biggest impediments to peace, why don't you tell your friends in Israel to stop stealing land by expanding settlements in every direction, and then we can talk about the biggest impediment's to peace. Until then, STFU


I don't agree with the west bank settlements, but if you lloked at what happened in Gaza after they left you would realize that taking land isn't the main problem.

sudo give me more cowbell: No, but if you'll read the preceeding posts you'll notice that my point was that there are people in positions of authority both in Palestine and Israel who exhibit hateful, genocidal attitudes towards the others. If we disregard the crazies on both sides, then we can start to improve the situation.


You can't "disregard" the crazies when they are the elected eladers.

This is what you stubbornly or dishonestly refuse to realize.


Frederick: I agree there is significant historical hatred for Jews especially in Christian nations. And because much of it stems from religion I'd also agree the hatred is largely irrational. But I think to dismiss all of histories exiles of Jews to hatred is an oversimplification and risks missing many valid points that could benefit posterity.

To use your example from above; if the drunk and provocatively dressed girl does get date raped even though she broke no laws, I'd still expect her to change her behavior before she takes the stance of "never again". And I wouldnt object too vociferously if you argued I was wrong for thinking that; but I would object if you boiled my stance down to some form of hatred.


Nevermind the intrinsic antisemetism of that analogy (that jews can be compared to one person as if they are some monolithic group), she isn't date raped becuase she did something "wrong" but because the person tought they could get away with it. In the case of the jews that was because they were a small minority. Hwo coudl they have changed that?

but I know you are trying to hint at soemthing "wrong" the jews did to bring this on themselves. Plese enlighten us. What did tje jews on 1920's germany do to cause the holocaust?
 
2013-04-09 08:08:21 AM

Frederick: owlie: Amos Quito: owlie:

This is exactly right. Jews didn't leave Spain or England because they were exiled, or Russia because of pogroms, or Nazi occupied Europe because of the Holocaust, or Arab countries in the 1930s onward because they were expelled, but out of fears of assimilation and fervent Zionist sentiment. Thanks for clearing that up.


Have you ever considered whether it MIGHT be productive to pause at being so obsessed with WHAT happened (over and over and over - here, there and everywhere!) and start asking yourselves WHY?

Just a thought.

Did you really go there? That's cute.

Is this a deflection to avoid answering?

In my conversations with seemingly neutral observers it is a valid historical question.  And IMO without a sincere, meaningful discussion of "why", "never again" is empty rhetoric.


Well, since you seem to solicit a discussion, I'll bite.  My theory is that many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s believed that it was their country's destiny to rule over Europe, and that many of those same Germans believed that European Jews were an obstacle to the fulfillment of that destiny, and that some of those same Germans believed that the best method of removing this obstacle was to kill as many of those Jews as possible.  And acted on those beliefs.  And I'll add that I applaud anyone of any ethnicity or religion who acted as such an obstacle in any way.
 
2013-04-09 08:26:22 AM
tirob:

Well, since you seem to solicit a discussion, I'll bite.  My theory is that many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s believed that it was their country's destiny to rule over Europe, and that many of those same Germans believed that European Jews were an obstacle to the fulfillment of that destiny, and that some of those same Germans believed that the best method of removing this obstacle was to kill as many of those Jews as possible.  And acted on those beliefs.  And I'll add that I applaud anyone of any ethnicity or religion who acted as such an obstacle in any way.

That's just a series of (if I may borrow from psychology) loose associations, without explanatory power. The big "Why" question isn't about confirming the timeline of events, but constructing if-then statements we can learn from. I suppose you could conclude that the Jews should have acted in such a way that they did not present an obstacle, but you'd have to ignore a whole lot of glaring problems to be satisfied with that conclusion.
 
2013-04-09 08:47:03 AM

owlie: tirob:

Well, since you seem to solicit a discussion, I'll bite.  My theory is that many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s believed that it was their country's destiny to rule over Europe, and that many of those same Germans believed that European Jews were an obstacle to the fulfillment of that destiny, and that some of those same Germans believed that the best method of removing this obstacle was to kill as many of those Jews as possible.  And acted on those beliefs.  And I'll add that I applaud anyone of any ethnicity or religion who acted as such an obstacle in any way.

That's just a series of (if I may borrow from psychology) loose associations, without explanatory power. The big "Why" question isn't about confirming the timeline of events, but constructing if-then statements we can learn from. I suppose you could conclude that the Jews should have acted in such a way that they did not present an obstacle, but you'd have to ignore a whole lot of glaring problems to be satisfied with that conclusion.


1.  A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

2.  Any question of "why" the massacres perpetrated by Germany in Europe during 1939-45 took place can only be answered by theories.  My answer was therefore a theory.

3.  I have seen this kind of question asked on this blog before, and the answer by the person who posed it is usually one or another variation of "The Jews brought it on themselves."  I don't buy that, so I thought I'd present another point of view.
 
2013-04-09 08:53:11 AM

tirob: 1. A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.


Were "many" German Jews acting as obstacles to the Nazi's before they were targets of the Nazi's?
 
2013-04-09 09:01:54 AM

tirob: owlie: tirob:

Well, since you seem to solicit a discussion, I'll bite.  My theory is that many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s believed that it was their country's destiny to rule over Europe, and that many of those same Germans believed that European Jews were an obstacle to the fulfillment of that destiny, and that some of those same Germans believed that the best method of removing this obstacle was to kill as many of those Jews as possible.  And acted on those beliefs.  And I'll add that I applaud anyone of any ethnicity or religion who acted as such an obstacle in any way.

That's just a series of (if I may borrow from psychology) loose associations, without explanatory power. The big "Why" question isn't about confirming the timeline of events, but constructing if-then statements we can learn from. I suppose you could conclude that the Jews should have acted in such a way that they did not present an obstacle, but you'd have to ignore a whole lot of glaring problems to be satisfied with that conclusion.

1.  A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

2.  Any question of "why" the massacres perpetrated by Germany in Europe during 1939-45 took place can only be answered by theories.  My answer was therefore a theory.

3.  I have seen this kind of question asked on this blog before, and the answer by the person who posed it is usually one or another variation of "The Jews brought it on themselves."  I don't buy that, so I thought I'd present another point of view.


Nice try, but you haven't shed light anywhere new, and if anything you underestimate Nazi intentions, such as wanting to exterminate Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. What Nazis believed is well documented and beyond theory. You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?" My own answer is "antisemitism", which you'd think wouldn't be controversial because it's tautological ("People hate Jews because they're antisemites"), but apparently it is.
 
2013-04-09 10:03:11 AM

owlie: You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?" My own answer is "antisemitism", which you'd think wouldn't be controversial because it's tautological ("People hate Jews because they're antisemites"), but apparently it is.


Well that's just f*cking genius, that is.
 
2013-04-09 12:04:07 PM

liam76: tirob: 1. A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

Were "many" German Jews acting as obstacles to the Nazi's before they were targets of the Nazi's?


I don't know how many is many, but there were plenty of European Jews, both German and not, who tried, in many different ways, to resist the Nazis from very early on.  For that matter there were plenty of European Gentiles, both German and not, who did the same.  Some of these people were rewarded for their efforts by the Nazis and their allies everywhere with trips to some pretty sinister places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hilferding
 
2013-04-09 12:15:23 PM

tirob: liam76: tirob: 1. A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

Were "many" German Jews acting as obstacles to the Nazi's before they were targets of the Nazi's?

I don't know how many is many, but there were plenty of European Jews, both German and not, who tried, in many different ways, to resist the Nazis from very early on.  For that matter there were plenty of European Gentiles, both German and not, who did the same.  Some of these people were rewarded for their efforts by the Nazis and their allies everywhere with trips to some pretty sinister places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hilferding


I don't like "squishy" words like "plenty" in conversations like this.

Any big political movement is going to have people against it.  I am looking for the "why" that people (Amos, Fredrick, etc) alledge was rooted in Jewish action that allowed people to be turned against them.
 
2013-04-09 12:20:08 PM

owlie: tirob: owlie: tirob:

1.  A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

2.  Any question of "why" the massacres perpetrated by Germany in Europe during 1939-45 took place can only be answered by theories.  My answer was therefore a theory.

3.  I have seen this kind of question asked on this blog before, and the answer by the person who posed it is usually one or another variation of "The Jews brought it on themselves."  I don't buy that, so I thought I'd present another point of view.

Nice try, but you haven't shed light anywhere new, and if anything you underestimate Nazi intentions, such as wanting to exterminate Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. What Nazis believed is well documented and beyond theory. You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?"


I gave a theoretical response to the "why did it happen" that you disagree with.  It's your privilege.  My theoretical assertions are, I would suggest to you, backed up to some extent by the very documentation you cite; in January 1939, I believe it was, Hitler, in a speech, said something much like this: "If International Finance Jewry once again plunges Europe into war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of Europe and thus a victory for the Jews, but, on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe."  Hannah Arendt rightly, I believe, translated this as, "I intend to start a war [of conquest] and I intend to kill all the European Jews."

I don't really have an answer to your second question, although I wouldn't take it for granted that all or even most people hate Jews.
 
2013-04-09 12:24:09 PM

owlie: tirob: owlie: tirob:

Well, since you seem to solicit a discussion, I'll bite.  My theory is that many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s believed that it was their country's destiny to rule over Europe, and that many of those same Germans believed that European Jews were an obstacle to the fulfillment of that destiny, and that some of those same Germans believed that the best method of removing this obstacle was to kill as many of those Jews as possible.  And acted on those beliefs.  And I'll add that I applaud anyone of any ethnicity or religion who acted as such an obstacle in any way.

That's just a series of (if I may borrow from psychology) loose associations, without explanatory power. The big "Why" question isn't about confirming the timeline of events, but constructing if-then statements we can learn from. I suppose you could conclude that the Jews should have acted in such a way that they did not present an obstacle, but you'd have to ignore a whole lot of glaring problems to be satisfied with that conclusion.

1.  A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

2.  Any question of "why" the massacres perpetrated by Germany in Europe during 1939-45 took place can only be answered by theories.  My answer was therefore a theory.

3.  I have seen this kind of question asked on this blog before, and the answer by the person who posed it is usually one or another variation of "The Jews brought it on themselves."  I don't buy that, so I thought I'd present another point of view.

Nice try, but you haven't shed light anywhere new, and if anything you underestimate Nazi intentions, such as wanting to exterminate Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. What Nazis believed is well documented and beyond theory. You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?" My own answer is "antisemitism", which you'd think wouldn't be controversial

because it's tautological ("People hate Jews because they're antisemites"), but apparently it is.


As you mentioned earlier in this thread, prior to WWI, the Germans Jews of Germany were very highly respected, accepted and quite assimilated. Following WWI, all that changed. What happened?

Consider the role played by the Zionists.

As it happens, I have studied this topic quite extensively, and have had numerous discussions here on Fark - some of which have included some of the participants in this thread. I have neither the time nor inclination to rehash the details at present, but should anyone be interested in further reading (and I somehow doubt that anyone will) you will find many links to enlightening documents from highly respected sources (such as the famed Jewish historian Sir Martin John Gilbert) in this thread. Feel free to ignore my opinions and conclusions if you like. There is much valuable information in the links I have provided in that thread.

There is no doubt that much of the mistrust, animosity and enmity that arose between ethnic Germans and the Jews can in large part be attributed to the Zionists - the methods and manipulations that they undertook in their efforts to create a "Homeland" for Jews in Palestine.

To ignore the Zionist factor in the years leading up to the Holocaust - and the fruits that Zionism has born post WWII (including the political situation as it exists today) is a SERIOUS mistake that can only lead to perpetual hostilities and repeated calamity.

As I said, feel free to disregard my observations - the sources I cite are much more valuable.

Have a nice day.
 
2013-04-09 12:31:21 PM

liam76: tirob: liam76: tirob: 1. A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

Were "many" German Jews acting as obstacles to the Nazi's before they were targets of the Nazi's?

I don't know how many is many, but there were plenty of European Jews, both German and not, who tried, in many different ways, to resist the Nazis from very early on.  For that matter there were plenty of European Gentiles, both German and not, who did the same.  Some of these people were rewarded for their efforts by the Nazis and their allies everywhere with trips to some pretty sinister places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hilferding

I don't like "squishy" words like "plenty" in conversations like this.

Any big political movement is going to have people against it.  I am looking for the "why" that people (Amos, Fredrick, etc) alledge was rooted in Jewish action that allowed people to be turned against them.


1.  I'm one of those people who believes that we ought to remember the early anti-Nazi resisters, and I seldom can resist the temptation to put in a good word for them.  And you did ask.

2.  You'll have to ask Amos and Frederick about that.  I for one believe that the Nazis tried to turn people against Jews not because of anything that Jews were particularly guilty of, but because they believed that it was in the interest of the Third Reich (and themselves) to do so.  Half pathological and half calculated, if you please.
 
2013-04-09 12:43:14 PM

tirob: owlie: tirob: owlie: tirob:

1.  A good many Jews *did* act as such obstacles, and more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

2.  Any question of "why" the massacres perpetrated by Germany in Europe during 1939-45 took place can only be answered by theories.  My answer was therefore a theory.

3.  I have seen this kind of question asked on this blog before, and the answer by the person who posed it is usually one or another variation of "The Jews brought it on themselves."  I don't buy that, so I thought I'd present another point of view.

Nice try, but you haven't shed light anywhere new, and if anything you underestimate Nazi intentions, such as wanting to exterminate Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. What Nazis believed is well documented and beyond theory. You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?"

I gave a theoretical response to the "why did it happen" that you disagree with.  It's your privilege.  My theoretical assertions are, I would suggest to you, backed up to some extent by the very documentation you cite; in January 1939, I believe it was, Hitler, in a speech, said something much like this: "If International Finance Jewry once again plunges Europe into war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of Europe and thus a victory for the Jews, but, on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe."  Hannah Arendt rightly, I believe, translated this as, "I intend to start a war [of conquest] and I intend to kill all the European Jews."

I don't really have an answer to your second question, although I wouldn't take it for granted that all or even most people hate Jews.


I didn't disagree with what you said, because it's factually reasonably accurate. Facts aren't theory; they're just facts.

"If International Finance Jewry once again plunges Europe into war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of Europe and thus a victory for the Jews, but, on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe." --Suggests that there's such a thing as International Finance Jewry, and that if war broke out, that it would be their fault. You'd have to subscribe to that to say that Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.
 
2013-04-09 12:44:29 PM

tirob: 1. I'm one of those people who believes that we ought to remember the early anti-Nazi resisters, and I seldom can resist the temptation to put in a good word for them. And you did ask.


Fair enough.

tirob: 2. You'll have to ask Amos and Frederick about that. I for one believe that the Nazis tried to turn people against Jews not because of anything that Jews were particularly guilty of, but because they believed that it was in the interest of the Third Reich (and themselves) to do so. Half pathological and half calculated, if you please


I think we are on the same page.

Amos Quito: As I said, feel free to disregard my observations - the sources I cite are much more valuable


Observations?  Pretending that Germany under Nazi's invested in Israel isn't an "observation" it is a pile of shiat with a peanut of truth in it.  The same type of shiat that fills all your rants on Jews.
Saying you will help Jews leave if they buy german goods to use in Israel isn't "investing".
 
2013-04-09 12:45:02 PM

Amos Quito: owlie: tirob: owlie: tirob:


etc. etc.

Duly ignored in the face of German antisemitism that predates the Zionist movement. As I've said elsewhere in so many words, haters gonna hate.
 
2013-04-09 12:56:20 PM

owlie: Amos Quito: owlie: tirob: owlie: tirob:

etc. etc.

Duly ignored in the face of German antisemitism that predates the Zionist movement. As I've said elsewhere in so many words, haters gonna hate.



Yeah, so you ignore all of the info in the links I provided in that thread - plug your ears and hum - just like I figured.

Opt instead for the "jews are snowflakes and its all becuz antisemitizm" excuse that has brought nothing but FAIL for the past 2,000 years.

Why break with tradition?


/No skin off my nose, bub
 
2013-04-09 01:02:18 PM
Amos Quito: There is no doubt that much of the mistrust, animosity, and enmity that arose between ethnic Germans and the Jews can in large part be attributed to the Zionists


This would explain why Hitler and the Nazis mentioned Zionists and Zionism so often during the Nazi political campaigns before 1933, and why Hitler spends so much time denouncing Zionism in Mein Kampf.

I mean, come now.  If you're going to make an assertion like this, at least try to back it up with a little bit of evidence from German and Nazi sources.

There may be no doubt in your mind that Germans and Jews became estranged after 1918 mainly because of Zionism, but I put it to you that Zionism was an infinitesimal factor in this estrangement compared to things like German resentment at having lost WWI and a willingness among many Germans to blame anyone but themselves for having brought that defeat on, a perception among German revanchists that many Jews did not favor their views (which was correct in many cases), the idea that Jews were the bearers of ideas like democracy, Social Democracy, and Bolshevism which were "un-German" and corrupt, the idea that Jews were an inferior race of people compared to Germans and that children born of unions between Jews and "Aryans" were a danger to the future of the German bloodline---these kinds of things appear all over Mein Kampf and other Nazi literature of the '20s and '30s, and were part and parcel of the appeals that Nazis made to Germans.  Zionism is mentioned once in Mein Kampf, if I recall correctly.  Germans cited many "reasons" for getting worked up about Jews after 1918.  Zionism just wasn't one of them.
 
2013-04-09 01:13:28 PM

tirob: I for one believe that the Nazis tried to turn people against Jews not because of anything that Jews were particularly guilty of, but because they believed that it was in the interest of the Third Reich (and themselves) to do so. Half pathological and half calculated, if you please.



Sometimes certain segments of a given society or group take actions that cause the entire society or group to suffer repercussions. Sadly this is a fact of life.

Earlier you I said that the actions of Zionists cast a pall on Jews in general, regardless of their persuasion. You disagreed. Well bub, the actions of Osama Bin Laden sure brought HELL down on a bunch of innocent Afghans - men women and children, didn't they?

Why don't you peruse this post in which I quote from the memoirs of David Lloyd George, who was Prime Minister of Britain during WWI. Written in 1939, he had no doubt as to why the animosity existed between Germany and Jewry.

Do you think he would have been in a position to know?

Again, the actions of a few can rain hell on the many - whether they "deserve" it or not.
 
2013-04-09 01:14:27 PM
owlie: 
International Finance Jewry

The quote is Hitler's, not mine.  And I'm sure that Hitler *did* believe that Jews (and for that matter anyone else whom he identified as enemies) brought all their misfortunes on themselves.

Read my entire paragraph.  I think Hannah Arendt's "translation" of Onkel Adolf's quote is pretty accurate.
 
2013-04-09 01:15:43 PM

tirob: Amos Quito: There is no doubt that much of the mistrust, animosity, and enmity that arose between ethnic Germans and the Jews can in large part be attributed to the Zionists


This would explain why Hitler and the Nazis mentioned Zionists and Zionism so often during the Nazi political campaigns before 1933, and why Hitler spends so much time denouncing Zionism in Mein Kampf.

I mean, come now.  If you're going to make an assertion like this, at least try to back it up with a little bit of evidence from German and Nazi sources.

There may be no doubt in your mind that Germans and Jews became estranged after 1918 mainly because of Zionism, but I put it to you that Zionism was an infinitesimal factor in this estrangement compared to things like German resentment at having lost WWI and a willingness among many Germans to blame anyone but themselves for having brought that defeat on, a perception among German revanchists that many Jews did not favor their views (which was correct in many cases), the idea that Jews were the bearers of ideas like democracy, Social Democracy, and Bolshevism which were "un-German" and corrupt, the idea that Jews were an inferior race of people compared to Germans and that children born of unions between Jews and "Aryans" were a danger to the future of the German bloodline---these kinds of things appear all over Mein Kampf and other Nazi literature of the '20s and '30s, and were part and parcel of the appeals that Nazis made to Germans.  Zionism is mentioned once in Mein Kampf, if I recall correctly.  Germans cited many "reasons" for getting worked up about Jews after 1918.  Zionism just wasn't one of them.



Ya think?

Read the link in my previous post.
 
2013-04-09 01:31:39 PM

Amos Quito: Read the link in my previous post


The link where you blame German Anti Semetism on Zionists, yet say Nazi's were helping Zionism, and "uinvesting" in their plan?

On top of not being true, it doesn't make sense.

Amos Quito: Sometimes certain segments of a given society or group take actions that cause the entire society or group to suffer repercussions. Sadly this is a fact of life.


Very tough for you to justify your "actions of a few" with those clever pictures you posted about the guy driving into an overpass.  Well tough to justify for an honest person, so maybe no problem for you.


Amos Quito: Why don't you peruse this post in which I quote from the memoirs of David Lloyd George, who was Prime Minister of Britain during WWI. Written in 1939, he had no doubt as to why the animosity existed between Germany and Jewry.


Or he could peruse the responses that you ignored, or all the incovneient facts you ignore that go hand in hand with that quote.
 
2013-04-09 01:42:53 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: I for one believe that the Nazis tried to turn people against Jews not because of anything that Jews were particularly guilty of, but because they believed that it was in the interest of the Third Reich (and themselves) to do so. Half pathological and half calculated, if you please.

Sometimes certain segments of a given society or group take actions that cause the entire society or group to suffer repercussions. Sadly this is a fact of life.

Earlier you I said that the actions of Zionists cast a pall on Jews in general, regardless of their persuasion. You disagreed. Well bub, the actions of Osama Bin Laden sure brought HELL down on a bunch of innocent Afghans - men women and children, didn't they?
.


I fail to see the logic here, and that may be because I have never seen bin Laden accused of acting on behalf of Afghans.  I'll concede that there are those who blame all Jews for the actions of Zionists; it's a fact of life, as you say.

Amos Quito:

Why don't you peruse this post in which I quote from the memoirs of David Lloyd George, who was Prime Minister of Britain during WWI. Written in 1939, he had no doubt as to why the animosity existed between Germany and Jewry.

Do you think he would have been in a position to know?



I assume this is the most pertinent part of the quote from LL. G's memoirs as far as you're concerned; correct me if I am mistaken:

But we have good reason to believe that Jewish propaganda in Russia had a great deal to do with
the difficulties created for the Germans in Southern Russia after the peace of Brest-Litovsk. The Germans themselves know that to be the case, and the Jews in Germany are suffering to-day for the fidelity with which their brethren in Russia and in America discharged their obligations under the Zionist pledge to the Allies.


If Jews were among those who made life for the German occupiers of the Ukraine unbearable in 1918, and if Jewish American soldiers helped defeat Imperial Germany in 1918, all I can say is good for them.

You do seem to imply that these people acted because they were instructed to by the Zionists.  Maybe that's what Lloyd George believed, but I have a simpler explanation for the actions of the Russian Jews you refer to:  They were defending their homes from invaders.  And as for the Jews in the US Army in France in 1918, I think that many of *them* were motivated by a desire to prove to their fellow citizens that they were as patriotic and as willing as anyone else to defend their country--the United States, that is--from its enemies.
 
2013-04-09 01:45:19 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: Germans cited many "reasons" for getting worked up about Jews after 1918.  Zionism just wasn't one of them.

Ya think?

Read the link in my previous post.


Yep.  Read *my* previous post.
 
2013-04-09 01:48:29 PM

tirob: You do seem to imply that these people acted because they were instructed to by the Zionists.


He frequently switches between Jews and Zionists when it is convenient.
 
2013-04-09 03:01:50 PM

tirob: I assume this is the most pertinent part of the quote from LL. G's memoirs as far as you're concerned; correct me if I am mistaken:

But we have good reason to believe that Jewish propaganda in Russia had a great deal to do with
the difficulties created for the Germans in Southern Russia after the peace of Brest-Litovsk. The Germans themselves know that to be the case, and the Jews in Germany are suffering to-day for the fidelity with which their brethren in Russia and in America discharged their obligations under the Zionist pledge to the Allies.

If Jews were among those who made life for the German occupiers of the Ukraine unbearable in 1918, and if Jewish American soldiers helped defeat Imperial Germany in 1918, all I can say is good for them.



Did you miss this part?

"Quite naturally Jewish sympathies were to a great extent anti-Russian, and therefore in favour of the Central Powers. No ally of Russia, in fact, could escape sharing that immediate and inevitable penalty for the long and savage Russian persecution of the Jewish race."

It might behoove you to read the entire quote again.

While the Czar remained in power, Jews (yes, JEWS, including Zionists) all over the world largely supported the Central Powers. You will notice that BOTH Britain AND Germany were seriously courting the Zionists - willing to offer them Palestine in exchange for their support.

Now why would huge powers such as Britain and Germany give a shiat about a bunch of scraggly Jews with goofy ambitions? Why would the support of a rag tag bunch of nobody's be worthy of winning? Because the Zionists were a MUCH more powerful force to be reckoned with than they are commonly portrayed in history. For a hint, look at the name of the party addressed in the Balfour Declaration.

The Zionists weren't ideological in this war. They were going to support whoever they felt would best served THEIR interests. Both Germany and Britain made overtures, and Britain won.

Once the Czar was on the ropes and the Bolshevik Revolution was in the works, and the Balfour Declaration was signed, the JEWS (yes Jews) at the behest of the Zionist leaders, "switched sides", and began to work against German interests. The Zionists (Rothschilds) secured funding (as mentioned by George) and the Jewish people actively began to sabotage the German war effort. There is also the matter of the US, who had been "officially neutral", entering the war on the side of the Brits.

What followed was a crushing defeat, a PUNISHING treaty of Versailles, and Germany was utterly destitute. As quoted in George above, this perceived "stab in the back" did NOT go unnoticed by the Germans - and neither did the largely "Jewish flavor" of the vicious and expansionist Bolshevik regime.

Were the Germans "justified' in their mistrust of the Zionists? Certainly. Of Jews in general? Not necessarily, but when one considers the broader context of the political movements in Eastern Europe at the time, we would be silly to try to claim that the German animosity toward Jewry was simply "mindless antisemitism" - or purely the result of Hitler's made-up fairy tales. Like I said, the bad actions of a few can lead to the misery of many.

Look, this is a busy day for me - I haven't time to link to every point I've made - many such links can be found in the threads I liked to earlier.

As they say, history is written by the winners, and the roles played by various parties are often exaggerated or ignored entirely. This does NOT serve us - ANY of us well, as without access to all of the facts, and perspectives, important lessons remain unlearned.

If you want to discuss any of this further, I'll try to check back - IF the thread remains open.

In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history, of the fate of modern Palestine.
 
2013-04-09 03:20:25 PM
Amos Quito:
...
In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history, of the fate of modern Palestine.


Slightly divergent idea here, but it occurs to me how irrelevant Hitler, the 3rd Reich, and Nazi-ism are becoming as time moves on - and this is as it should be.  I'm sure today's HS students can't really tell the difference between WWI and WWII - it's all just a bunch of blah blah blah about people in ancient history.

Soon talking about Nazis and concentration camps will carry the same weight as telling people about King Leopold and the Congo, or Montezuma and Mexico, or South America, or the North American Indians, or the slave trade of Africans.

Which is to say, they were some of the most horrible crimes ever committed against human beings, but talking about them just makes people yawn.
 
2013-04-09 03:23:11 PM

Amos Quito: In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history


But you don't adress the "facts of history" you bring up kernels of truth buried under your piles of shiat, and ignore any facts you don't like.
 
2013-04-09 03:43:15 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history

But you don't adress the "facts of history" you bring up kernels of truth buried under your piles of shiat, and ignore any facts you don't like.



Then correct me. And  NEENER-NEENER-NEENER! is not acceptable.

Rather. specifically state where I am mistaken, provide the correct information, and back it up with links to reputable sources (and no, CAMERA is NOT a reputable source).

Off you go, then.
 
2013-04-09 03:48:52 PM

noitsnot: Amos Quito:
...
In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history, of the fate of modern Palestine.

Slightly divergent idea here, but it occurs to me how irrelevant Hitler, the 3rd Reich, and Nazi-ism are becoming as time moves on - and this is as it should be.  I'm sure today's HS students can't really tell the difference between WWI and WWII - it's all just a bunch of blah blah blah about people in ancient history.

Soon talking about Nazis and concentration camps will carry the same weight as telling people about King Leopold and the Congo, or Montezuma and Mexico, or South America, or the North American Indians, or the slave trade of Africans.

Which is to say, they were some of the most horrible crimes ever committed against human beings, but talking about them just makes people yawn.



You are correct in that time affects the relative perceived relevance of history. The catch is that many of the problems we face to day are the direct result of our failure to understand the lessons of the past, so when we fail, whether by design or accident, to grasp a comprehensive view of hallmark events in history, we're setting ourselves up for similar mistakes in the future.
 
2013-04-09 05:11:58 PM

owlie: Nice try, but you haven't shed light anywhere new, and if anything you underestimate Nazi intentions, such as wanting to exterminate Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. What Nazis believed is well documented and beyond theory. You're missing where the underlying question others have brought up is not just "Why did it happen?" but "Why do people hate Jews so much?" My own answer is "antisemitism", which you'd think wouldn't be controversial because it's tautological ("People hate Jews because they're antisemites"), but apparently it is.


I'm reading Mein Kampf on and off (still on the first book). What I got from it is that:

1) Hitler hated jews because he read a christian paper (Deutche Volksblatt, IIRC) which was loaded with propaganda against both jews and socialists. He came for the anti-socialism and stayed for the anti-semitism. The editors at Deutche Volksblatt hated jews because they were christians, because that's what christians did until 1945-48.

2) Once sucked into the generic christian jew-hate, Hitler blamed the jews for all sorts of things, including losing WWI. Specifically, he thought Germany lost because of a strike at a munitions plant, which in his opinion was orchestrated by jewish socialists.

As for why "people hate jews," until 1945-48, the christians hated jews because they killed jeebus. During most of this period, muslims thought of jews as a brethren people (of the book). The muslims reversed their opinion because of zionism in Palestine and the creation of modern Israel.
 
2013-04-09 05:48:25 PM

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history

But you don't adress the "facts of history" you bring up kernels of truth buried under your piles of shiat, and ignore any facts you don't like.


Then correct me. And  NEENER-NEENER-NEENER! is not acceptable.

Rather. specifically state where I am mistaken, provide the correct information, and back it up with links to reputable sources (and no, CAMERA is NOT a reputable source).

Off you go, then.


Correct you on what? You take out of context quotes and pretend it is proof that zionists were some huge force n WWI that were only ever concerned with Israel where it is now. You have no evidence other than that.

In your own links about the Balfour Declaration you ignore the German response that was promising the same thing. Your "proof" of how important it was is that Rothschild supported britian and ignore he was a British citizen. You have never provided an ounce of proof that he wasn't helping them before. You have never provided an ounce of proof that jews were picking sides based on the Balfour declaration.

YOu go on and on about how Nazi's were rightly mad about Zionists (which I don't buy) then ignore your own BS by lying and saying that they provided material support to Israel. You can't even keep your own BS straight. Your own words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#German_and_Ottoman_r e action
 
2013-04-09 05:49:09 PM

Amos Quito: tirob:
Did you miss this part?

"Quite naturally Jewish sympathies were to a great extent anti-Russian, and therefore in favour of the Central Powers. No ally of Russia, in fact, could escape sharing that immediate and inevitable penalty for the long and savage Russian persecution of the Jewish race."



No.

Amos Quito: if you want to discuss any of this further


I would be open to doing so at some point, but before we do may I suggest that you read a college textbook on German history--mine was Gordon A. Craig's Germany 1866-1945, Oxford University Press, 1978--beforehand?  I also suggest Fritz Fischer's Germany's Aims in the First World War, W.W. Norton & Co., 1967, which may among other things open your eyes to the role of the *Imperial German Government* in bringing about the Bolshevik Revolution.  (Fischer does mention the Wilhelmstrasse's abortive dealings with Zionists, btw.)  I am finding it more and more difficult to respond to your points because I am increasingly under the impression that your grasp of 20th century German history isn't any too good, and I also think your analysis of that history suffers because you view all of it through the prism of your distaste for Zionism.

Amos Quito: George


Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't be related to someone named Farker T, would you?  He--I think he was a male--and I had a couple of discussions about this topic and similar ones, and not only did he make the same kinds of arguments you do, using the same writing style, he also (mistakenly) called Lloyd George "George," if my memory serves me.
 
2013-04-09 06:53:10 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: In the meantime, Liam76 can call me an "anti-Semite, a Jew hater and a Nazi apologist" - as if that will change the fats of history

But you don't adress the "facts of history" you bring up kernels of truth buried under your piles of shiat, and ignore any facts you don't like.


Then correct me. And  NEENER-NEENER-NEENER! is not acceptable.

Rather. specifically state where I am mistaken, provide the correct information, and back it up with links to reputable sources (and no, CAMERA is NOT a reputable source).

Off you go, then.

Correct you on what? You take out of context quotes and pretend it is proof that zionists were some huge force n WWI that were only ever concerned with Israel where it is now. You have no evidence other than that.


Which out of context quotes? You mean this?

"In addition to this, the German General Staff, with their wide outlook on possibilities, urged, early in 1916, the advantages of promising Jewish restoration to Palestine under an arrangement

"{p. 726} to be made between Zionists and Turkey, backed by a German guarantee. The practical difficulties were considerable; the subject was perhaps dangerous to German relations with Turkey; and the German Government acted cautiously. But the scheme was by no means rejected or even shelved, and at any moment the Allies might have been forestalled in offering this supreme bid. In fact in September, 1917, the German
Government were making very serious efforts to capture the Zionist Movement."


Or this?

"It was believed that if Great Britain declared for the fulfilment of Zionist aspirations in Palestine under her own pledge, one effect would
be to bring Russian Jewry to the cause of the Entente.
It was believed, also, that such a declaration would have a potent influence upon world Jewry outside Russia, and secure for the Entente the aid of Jewish financial interests. In America, their aid in this respect would have a special value when the Allies had almost exhausted the gold and marketable securities available for American purchases. Such were the chief considerations which, in 1917, impelled the British Government towards making a contract with Jewry. "


Obviously winning the favor of the Zionists was seen as strategically vital by both the Central Powers and the Entente. Indeed, some might say that it turned the direction of the war, and altered the course of history.

Imagine that.

liam76: In your own links about the Balfour Declaration you ignore the German response that was promising the same thing. Your "proof" of how important it was is that Rothschild supported britian and ignore he was a British citizen.



LOL! The Rosthchilds don't "belong" any county. Countries belong to the Rothschilds. International banking has been the family business since the 1700's when Mayer Amschel Rothschild sent each of his five sons to establish banking houses in five different European countries - each son becoming a "citized" (lol) of the nation where he landed. They have financed wars (often both sides simultaneously) since the time of Napoleon. Big profits to be had in war, you know. Read up.


liam76: You have never provided an ounce of proof that he wasn't helping them before. You have never provided an ounce of proof that jews were picking sides based on the Balfour declaration.


Quoting George:

"There is no better proof of the value of the Balfour Declaration as a military move than the fact that Germany entered into negotiations with Turkey in an endeavour to provide an alternative scheme which would appeal to Zionists. A German-Jewish Society, the V.J.O.D.,* was formed, and in January, 1918, Talaat, the Grand Vizier, at the instigation of the Germans, gave vague promises of legislation by means of which "all justifiable wishes of the Jews in Palestine would be able to find their fulfilment."

The Zionists made a deal with the Brits: "We support your war efforts, you carve out a chunk of Palestine for us". Quid pro quo. The Germans attempted a counter offer - but it was too late.

So the thanks to the Zionists (Rothschilds) the Brits won the war, and the British Mandate was established, AS PROMISED, and the Zionists had their paws on the long sought-after real estate for their Zionist State.

But as it turned out, that was the EASY part. Populating that stinking desert with enough savvy, cultured European Jews to make the dream a POLITICAL reality was another matter - as most Jews were perfectly happy where they were - in Germany, in France, in Poland, in England and with the Czar gone, even in Russia... and had few had any desire to go to a place that had long been the ancestral home of OTHER people, who weren't exactly keen on having the area flooded with European and Asian aliens.

But we'll cover the "population problem" in our next chapter.
 
2013-04-09 07:05:14 PM

Amos Quito: LOL! The Rosthchilds don't "belong" any county. Countries belong to the Rothschilds. International banking has been the family business since the 1700's when Mayer Amschel Rothschild sent each of his five sons to establish banking houses in five different European countries - each son becoming a "citized" (lol) of the nation where he landed. They have financed wars (often both sides simultaneously) since the time of Napoleon. Big profits to be had in war, you know


You have some proof the level of support he gave rose after the Balfour Declaration?

Amos Quito: Obviously winning the favor of the Zionists was seen as strategically vital by both the Central Powers and the Entente. Indeed, some might say that it turned the direction of the war, and altered the course of history.


A sliver of unwanted land hardly proves they were "strategically vital".  And you never answered the questions.  Show me numbers.  Show me people that picked up arms because of this.


Amos Quito: The Zionists made a deal with the Brits: "We support your war efforts, you carve out a chunk of Palestine for us". Quid pro quo. The Germans attempted a counter offer - but it was too late.

So the thanks to the Zionists (Rothschilds) the Brits won the war, and the British Mandate was established, AS PROMISED, and the Zionists had their paws on the long sought-after real estate for their Zionist State.


You never provided any proof of the underlined.

And you are still ignoring the glaring problem with your own theories.

If the Nazi's were so mad about zionists, why do you claim they provided material support? Your own nonsense makes no sense.  Even if I am to swallow all the BS that comes with the quotes you toss out.
 
2013-04-09 07:07:05 PM

Amos Quito: But we'll cover the "population problem" in our next chapter


No you won't.  You re afraid to be clear here because it makes it very easy to see how absurd you are.
 
2013-04-09 07:13:53 PM

tirob: Amos Quito: if you want to discuss any of this further

I would be open to doing so at some point, but before we do may I suggest that you read a college textbook on German history--mine was Gordon A. Craig's Germany 1866-1945, Oxford University Press, 1978--beforehand? I also suggest Fritz Fischer's Germany's Aims in the First World War, W.W. Norton & Co., 1967, which may among other things open your eyes to the role of the *Imperial German Government* in bringing about the Bolshevik Revolution. (Fischer does mention the Wilhelmstrasse's abortive dealings with Zionists, btw.) I am finding it more and more difficult to respond to your points because I am increasingly under the impression that your grasp of 20th century German history isn't any too good, and I also think your analysis of that history suffers because you view all of it through the prism of your distaste for Zionism.



I am well aware of the role that the "Germans" (especially the Warburgs) played in facilitating the Bolshevik Revolution, as well as the role that the "American" Jacob Schiff (Rothschild agent) played in financing the scheme. You can read a bit here.

You go ahead and read your little filtered textbooks. Where possible, I prefer to go to the source material, rather than rely on snippets that the editors have deemed "suitable" for public consumption.


tirob: Amos Quito: George

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't be related to someone named Farker T, would you?



I don't know. What's his mother's maiden name?


tirob: He--I think he was a male--and I had a couple of discussions about this topic and similar ones, and not only did he make the same kinds of arguments you do, using the same writing style, he also (mistakenly) called Lloyd George "George," if my memory serves me.



Mistakenly? The man's name was David Lloyd George. I referred to him by his surname, "George", as one might refer Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill simply as "Churchill", or to Barack Hussein Obama II  simply as "Obama".

Is there something wrong with that?
 
2013-04-09 07:21:21 PM

Amos Quito: rather than rely on snippets that the editors have deemed "suitable" for public consumption.


Yeah, you prefer snippets that you can use to paint Zionists as the cause of all the problems leading to WWII...
 
2013-04-09 07:45:57 PM

Amos Quito: as well as the role that the "American" Jacob Schiff (Rothschild agent) played in financing the scheme. You can read a bit here


So the Rothschilds and their Zionist agents betrayed Germany after the Balfour declaration (of course you have presented zero proof of change in Rothschild support  after it was signed).

Funny that, from your own link, Schiff stopped financing transactions for Germany or the Central Powers as of 1914, stopped speaking German in public and was eager to demonstrate his moral and financial commitment to the Allied cause.  Three years before the Balfour declaration was signed...

Are some of these Zionists time travelers?
 
2013-04-09 08:42:31 PM
The question, I believe, was in regards to repeated Jewish exiles, and not in regards specifically to the Holocaust.  As in why have Jews been repeatedly exiled?

The most replied answer, especially from Jews is because of antisemitism.  Owlie basically echoed that sentiment.  But I think that is irresponsible and oversimplified.  The Spanish, English, German have all given reasons and they dont cite antisemitism.

I would ask those who hold onto the antisemitism cause if they have read and understood the reasons given by those who exiled Jews.  I dont think Jews can sincerely forward the "Never Again" mantra without objectively contemplating the "why".  And simply suggesting antisemitism is the reason for why implies a disregard for the reasons given.
 
2013-04-09 09:43:44 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: LOL! The Rosthchilds don't "belong" any county. Countries belong to the Rothschilds. International banking has been the family business since the 1700's when Mayer Amschel Rothschild sent each of his five sons to establish banking houses in five different European countries - each son becoming a "citized" (lol) of the nation where he landed. They have financed wars (often both sides simultaneously) since the time of Napoleon. Big profits to be had in war, you know

You have some proof the level of support he gave rose after the Balfour Declaration?



Quoting George:

"The Zionist leaders gave us a definite promise that, if the Allies
committed themselves
to giving facilities for the establishment of a
National Home for the Jews in Palestine, they would do their best to
rally to the Allied cause Jewish sentiment and support throughout the
world
. They kept their word in the letter and the spirit, and the only
question that remains now is whether we mean to honour ours."


Coming from the Prime Minister of Great Britain at the time, I'd say that's pretty solid evidence, wouldn't you?


liam76: Amos Quito: Obviously winning the favor of the Zionists was seen as strategically vital by both the Central Powers and the Entente. Indeed, some might say that it turned the direction of the war, and altered the course of history.

A sliver of unwanted land hardly proves they were "strategically vital".



Unwanted? Apparently that land was VERY MUCH wanted by SOMEONE:

Constantinople, Ottoman Empire, June 15, 1896:

"[Theodor] Herzl presented his proposal to the Grand Vizier that the Jews would pay the Turkish foreign debt, and attempt to help regulate Turkish finances, if they were given Palestine as a Jewish homeland under Turkish rule."

Now who on EARTH could afford to pay the Turkish foreign debt? And for a "sliver" of land?

Rothschilds. Pocket change. And this was 20 years before the Balfour Declaration (the Ottoman Empire had crumbled in the interim).


The

liam76: And you never answered the questions. Show me numbers. Show me people that picked up arms because of this.



There is more to war than simply boots on the ground, liam76. There is MONEY, and political support both open and behind the scenes, and the Zionists offered all of the above. David Lloyd George already stated the importance of gaining access to additional finances, and the workings of the Jews in spoiling the logistics for the Germans on the Eastern Front. There is also the little matter of the US abandoning "neutrality", and entering the war on the side of the Allies that same year.

Probably just a coincidence.


liam76: Amos Quito: The Zionists made a deal with the Brits: "We support your war efforts, you carve out a chunk of Palestine for us". Quid pro quo. The Germans attempted a counter offer - but it was too late.

So the thanks to the Zionists (Rothschilds) the Brits won the war, and the British Mandate was established, AS PROMISED, and the Zionists had their paws on the long sought-after real estate for their Zionist State.

You never provided any proof of the underlined.



Sorry, that should read "Thanks largely". Is that better? (And in history, "proof" is hard to come by - we must rely on EVIDENCE, liam76)


liam76: And you are still ignoring the glaring problem with your own theories.

If the Nazi's were so mad about zionists, why do you claim they provided material support? Your own nonsense makes no sense. Even if I am to swallow all the BS that comes with the quotes you toss out.



You are well aware of the Haavara Agreement , you know damn well that through the 1930's, the Nazis and the Zionists were working cooperation to achieve essentially the same goal: Germany wanted its Jews OUT, and the Zionists wanted them to land in ONE PLACE and ONE PLACE only: Palestine.

For practical purposes, Hitler was a Zionist. You like Zionists, liam76?
 
2013-04-09 09:44:26 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito: if you want to discuss any of this further

I would be open to doing so at some point, but before we do may I suggest that you read a college textbook on German history--mine was Gordon A. Craig's Germany 1866-1945, Oxford University Press, 1978--beforehand? I also suggest Fritz Fischer's Germany's Aims in the First World War, W.W. Norton & Co., 1967, which may among other things open your eyes to the role of the *Imperial German Government* in bringing about the Bolshevik Revolution. (Fischer does mention the Wilhelmstrasse's abortive dealings with Zionists, btw.) I am finding it more and more difficult to respond to your points because I am increasingly under the impression that your grasp of 20th century German history isn't any too good, and I also think your analysis of that history suffers because you view all of it through the prism of your distaste for Zionism.


I am well aware of the role that the "Germans" (especially the Warburgs) played in facilitating the Bolshevik Revolution, as well as the role that the "American" Jacob Schiff (Rothschild agent) played in financing the scheme. You can read a bit here.
.



I don't mean Germans.  I mean the Imperial German Government.  Erich Ludendorff.  Richard Kuehlmann.  Ulrich Brockdorff-Rantzau.  But I see I am not going to persuade you to crack open Fischer's opus, although I assure you that neither it nor Craig's is "filtered" by editors.  Suit yourself.

Amos Quito: Is there something wrong with that?


I can't prevent you from calling Lloyd George "George" if that's what you want to do, but according to the source that you yourself provide, his family name was Lloyd George, and I have never known any British person to refer to him in any other way.

Amos Quito:

tirob: Amos Quito: George

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't be related to someone named Farker T, would you?

he also (mistakenly) called Lloyd George "George," if my memory serves me.

mother's maiden name



I found it.

http://www.fark.com/comments/6023673/Media-Matters-the-Southern-Pove rt y-Law-Center-are-real-racists-for-smearing-a-patriotic-American-who-si mply-tried-to-blow-people-up-at-MLK-parade?startid=67520868

"George describes the depth of the skulduggery pretty well, doesn't he?"
 
2013-04-09 10:28:45 PM

Frederick: The question, I believe, was in regards to repeated Jewish exiles, and not in regards specifically to the Holocaust.  As in why have Jews been repeatedly exiled?

The most replied answer, especially from Jews is because of antisemitism.  Owlie basically echoed that sentiment.  But I think that is irresponsible and oversimplified.  The Spanish, English, German have all given reasons and they dont cite antisemitism.

I would ask those who hold onto the antisemitism cause if they have read and understood the reasons given by those who exiled Jews.  I dont think Jews can sincerely forward the "Never Again" mantra without objectively contemplating the "why".  And simply suggesting antisemitism is the reason for why implies a disregard for the reasons given.


The term antisemitism itself is recent, but it still quite neatly describes attitudes towards Jews that justified using them as scapegoats for various ills, which in turn led to those expulsions. Sure, the "official" reason may have been something or other that Jews supposedly did or were responsible for, but you don't even need to use your imagination to figure out what were the underlying motives for expulsion, because the historical record is so clear on that. Usury comes up a lot, and it's a great example. Not only were Christians and Muslims forbidden from money lending, but in many places Jews were forbidden from owning land. Not only does this burst the myth of Jews "having it good" for a time (although some periods and places were more tolerable than others), but it also demonstrates quite clearly the push-pull factors that resulted in Jews taking on a role that has (not surprisingly) always been in demand. Simply put, it's hardly a mystery why people would gladly hate someone to whom they are in financial debt, especially if that hate could eventually result in their not having to worry about that debt anymore.

Feel free to dig deeper, but I expect you'll be hard pressed to find actual instances of Jews using the blood of Christian babies to make matzos for Passover, roving bands of Jewish proselytizers, or other evidence of Antichrist conspiracies perpetrated by Jews.
 
2013-04-09 11:52:06 PM

owlie: Frederick: The question, I believe, was in regards to repeated Jewish exiles, and not in regards specifically to the Holocaust.  As in why have Jews been repeatedly exiled?

The most replied answer, especially from Jews is because of antisemitism.  Owlie basically echoed that sentiment.  But I think that is irresponsible and oversimplified.  The Spanish, English, German have all given reasons and they dont cite antisemitism.

I would ask those who hold onto the antisemitism cause if they have read and understood the reasons given by those who exiled Jews.  I dont think Jews can sincerely forward the "Never Again" mantra without objectively contemplating the "why".  And simply suggesting antisemitism is the reason for why implies a disregard for the reasons given.

The term antisemitism itself is recent, but it still quite neatly describes attitudes towards Jews that justified using them as scapegoats for various ills, which in turn led to those expulsions. Sure, the "official" reason may have been something or other that Jews supposedly did or were responsible for, but you don't even need to use your imagination to figure out what were the underlying motives for expulsion, because the historical record is so clear on that. Usury comes up a lot, and it's a great example. Not only were Christians and Muslims forbidden from money lending, but in many places Jews were forbidden from owning land. Not only does this burst the myth of Jews "having it good" for a time (although some periods and places were more tolerable than others), but it also demonstrates quite clearly the push-pull factors that resulted in Jews taking on a role that has (not surprisingly) always been in demand. Simply put, it's hardly a mystery why people would gladly hate someone to whom they are in financial debt, especially if that hate could eventually result in their not having to worry about that debt anymore.

Feel free to dig deeper, but I expect you'll be hard pressed to find actual instances ...



Remove the "anti" from "anti-Semitism" and you've found the root of your problem.

Do you know why there are no anti-gorfscheneyars?
 
2013-04-10 07:35:33 AM
Amos Quito:
Haavara

For practical purposes, Hitler was a Zionist
.


Did anything else Hitler ever do offend you, Farker T--I mean Amos Quito--or just this one thing?
 
2013-04-10 09:37:03 AM

tirob: Amos Quito:
Haavara

For practical purposes, Hitler was a Zionist
.

Did anything else Hitler ever do offend you, Farker T--I mean Amos Quito--or just this one thing?



Oh, most certainly. The very names "Hitler" and "Nazi" have become pejorative, and rightfully so, expansionist murderous machines - virtual evil incarnate.

Not that these were the only villains of the era - our "ally" Stalin and his Commies were their own piece of work, don't you agree?

You know, I was perusing the thread that you linked to earlier - your last post, specifically, where you mention a book by Fritz Fischer who ponders how history may have been different had Germany actually won WWI. Sounds like an interesting read.Food for thought.

What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions? Or would the Germans have kept them in check? Anyone's guess, I suppose.

It seems certain that there would have been no Hitler. A Second World War? Who knows?

One thing seems certain, if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, they still would have gotten Palestine, though I have no idea how they might have populated it.

And the Palestinians would likely have fared no better than they are today.
 
2013-04-10 10:08:26 AM

Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?


Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.
 
2013-04-10 10:24:59 AM

liam76: Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?

Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.


Another issue I find confoundingly stupid with your claims about the power of Zionists and how they threw completely in with the British.

You must know the British didn't support the bolshevicks, right?  They were backing the "whites".  If they zionists were so powerful, why did the "whites" not win?
 
2013-04-10 10:32:17 AM

liam76: Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?

Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.



No, you forget that the Germans had essentially whipped the Czar - weakened him to the point that he was doomed. But thanks to difficulties both in Eastern Europe and on other fronts, the Germans were, shall we say, preoccupied elsewhere, and were never able to "finish the job" by enforcing whatever "peace" (treaty, etc) with Russia that they may have had they been able to complete their advances.

Instead, power vacuum created by the war-weakened Czar was filled by the Bolsheviks, who quickly murdered the Czar, his family, and tens of millions of others. Bloody mess, that.

As to what degree the Zionist deal with the Brits influenced the outcome of the war may be debatable - but Lloyd George (happy, tirob?) certainly seemed to think it was considerable.

Ever read Leon Trotsky's Thermidor and Anti-Semitism?

That is also interesting. He wrote in 1937 - while in exile.
 
2013-04-10 10:46:26 AM

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?

Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.


No, you forget that the Germans had essentially whipped the Czar - weakened him to the point that he was doomed. But thanks to difficulties both in Eastern Europe and on other fronts, the Germans were, shall we say, preoccupied elsewhere, and were never able to "finish the job" by enforcing whatever "peace" (treaty, etc) with Russia that they may have had they been able to complete their advances.

Instead, power vacuum created by the war-weakened Czar was filled by the Bolsheviks, who quickly murdered the Czar, his family, and tens of millions of others. Bloody mess, that.


What would have changed?

You are still going to have Germany vs Tsarist Russia, no matter what side the zionists are on.

And you are still ignorning that, according to your analysis of Zionists being so powerful and in the bag for Britian, the "reds" still one despite Britian being for the whites.


liam76: liam76: Amos Quito: as well as the role that the "American" Jacob Schiff (Rothschild agent) played in financing the scheme. You can read a bit here

So the Rothschilds and their Zionist agents betrayed Germany after the Balfour declaration (of course you have presented zero proof of change in Rothschild support after it was signed).

Funny that, from your own link, Schiff stopped financing transactions for Germany or the Central Powers as of 1914, stopped speaking German in public and was eager to demonstrate his moral and financial commitment to the Allied cause. Three years before the Balfour declaration was signed...

Are some of these Zionists time travelers?

No answer? Is that a yes on the time lord Zionists, or maybe your theory is a bit silly?


Still waiting on this one...
 
2013-04-10 10:57:06 AM

liam76: liam76: Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?

Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.

Another issue I find confoundingly stupid with your claims about the power of Zionists and how they threw completely in with the British.

You must know the British didn't support the bolshevicks, right?  They were backing the "whites".  If they zionists were so powerful, why did the "whites" not win?



Did I ever say that the "Zionists threw completely in with the British"?

The Zionists had their own agenda. Gaining Palestine was certainly one goal, while overthrowing the Czar was another. (Don't forget that clear back in 1904, the Rothschild agent Jacob Schiff financed the Japanese in the Japanese-Russian War to the tune of $200 million).

Do you think that the Zionists, having gone to all that trouble and expense, would not want to try to control who replaced the Czar? To be as certain as possible that the new regime would be more friendly to their interests?

Even Churchill noted the overwhelming "Jewish" character of the new Bolshevik regime in an article he penned in the Illustrated Sunday Herald.

I don't know what gave you the idea that I believe that the pact between the Brits and the Zionists meant that their goals were in complete alignment with one another.

Yet another of your simple fantasies, I suppose.
 
2013-04-10 11:22:41 AM

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?

Only if you live in a fantasy land where Zionism was a driving force behind communism.


No, you forget that the Germans had essentially whipped the Czar - weakened him to the point that he was doomed. But thanks to difficulties both in Eastern Europe and on other fronts, the Germans were, shall we say, preoccupied elsewhere, and were never able to "finish the job" by enforcing whatever "peace" (treaty, etc) with Russia that they may have had they been able to complete their advances.

Instead, power vacuum created by the war-weakened Czar was filled by the Bolsheviks, who quickly murdered the Czar, his family, and tens of millions of others. Bloody mess, that.

What would have changed?

You are still going to have Germany vs Tsarist Russia, no matter what side the zionists are on.



By the time armistice and negotiations with Germany were taking place, the Czar was finished. The Bolsheviks had taken control.


liam76: liam76: liam76: Amos Quito: as well as the role that the "American" Jacob Schiff (Rothschild agent) played in financing the scheme. You can read a bit here

So the Rothschilds and their Zionist agents betrayed Germany after the Balfour declaration (of course you have presented zero proof of change in Rothschild support after it was signed).

Funny that, from your own link, Schiff stopped financing transactions for Germany or the Central Powers as of 1914, stopped speaking German in public and was eager to demonstrate his moral and financial commitment to the Allied cause. Three years before the Balfour declaration was signed...

Are some of these Zionists time travelers?

No answer? Is that a yes on the time lord Zionists, or maybe your theory is a bit silly?

Still waiting on this one...



Sorry, I'm not quite sure what point you think are tying to make here.

Schiff, the international banker who was quite literally BORN in the Rothschild house,  and spent his life representing Rothschild interests, was "playing American".


/Farking political games. How do they work?
 
2013-04-10 12:12:08 PM

Amos Quito: Sorry, I'm not quite sure what point you think are tying to make here.

Schiff, the international banker who was quite literally BORN in the Rothschild house, and spent his life representing Rothschild interests, was "playing American".


/Farking political games. How do they work


You are claiming Schiff threw his support to US and not Germany because he was a zionist and the British promised the Zionists Palestine.  That ignores the fact eh stopped helping Germany three years before the Balfour declaration.


Amos Quito: By the time armistice and negotiations with Germany were taking place, the Czar was finished. The Bolsheviks had taken control.


Actually it was still up for grabs who would take control (reds or whites).  But for the sake of argument lets pretend you are right.  Why then would German and the Zionists working together changed the outcome of the Bolschevicks taking control?


Amos Quito: Did I ever say that the "Zionists threw completely in with the British"?


Did you ever say that?  No.  But you love to make sweeping claims based upon a quote from Lloyd George tot hat effect.  Are you saying that the support they gave the British wasn't as solid as you claimed?

Amos Quito: The Zionists had their own agenda. Gaining Palestine was certainly one goal, while overthrowing the Czar was another.


Once again, if they threw in with the Germans, who were fighting the Tsar, how would that have prevented bolschevicks from coming to power?

Was stopping the Tsar a "zionist goal" or was stopping the opression of Jews by the Tsar a jewish goal?

There is absolutly no consistency in your claims about Zionism.  You cherry pick random quotes and tiny factoids to try and paint a picture of how evil and powerful they were and ignore any facts you don't like.
 
2013-04-10 12:28:22 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito:

Not that these were the only villains of the era - our "ally" Stalin and his Commies were their own piece of work, don't you agree?
.


Yes.  They were Hitler's allies, too, for almost two years.

Amos Quito:

You know, I was perusing the thread that you linked to earlier - your last post, specifically, where you mention a book by Fritz Fischer who ponders how history may have been different had Germany actually won WWI. Sounds like an interesting read. Food for thought.
.


I recommend the book.  Fischer does devote several pages to the Wilhelmstrasse's attempts to appeal to Russian Jews to turn against their government, and to Zionists everywhere, including the US, to agitate in favor of Germany.  The attempts were failures, and in the case of Russia, tragic failures, because once Russian military people got wind of what the Wilhelmstrasse was trying to do, they deported and in some cases even murdered Jews in Western Russia.

Amos Quito: tirob .

What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany?



Fischer seems to think that the Zionists basically wrote Germany off after the Battle of the Marne.

p. 142:  "After the military reverses of the autumn of 1914, the Executive Committee of the World Zionist Organization in Copenhagen pronounced in favour of strict neutrality, and forced all Zionist members to resigne from the Committee of Liberation [of the Jews of Russia, a body set up by the Wilhelmstrasse]; the latter then transformed itself into a relief organisation for the Jews of the [German-] occupied [Russian] territories.

Fischer makes what I think is a convincing case that the Wilhelmstrasse's attempts to organize Jews and other minority nationalities of the Russian Empire against the Czar was part of the German government's worldwide policy to make life difficult for its British, French, and Russian enemies by fomenting dissent and rebellion in the territories their enemies controlled.  One facet of this policy was support of the Bolsheviks.  The dispatch by Berlin of Lenin and some of his Bolshevik comrades in arms from Switzerland to Finland was part of this policy.  Less well known is the fact that Germany financed the Bolsheviks after Lenin's return to Russia.

Richard Kuehlmann, Foreign Minister of Germany, December 3, 1917:  "It was only [my emphasis] the resources which the Bolsheviks received from our side, through various channels, and on various pretexts, that enabled them to develop their chief organ Pravda, to carry on a lively agitation, and greatly to expand the narrow basis of their party."

Fischer, p. 368.  I think that Kuehlmann is doing some bragging when he claims that the Bolsheviks owed their success solely to German financial help.  But he did acknowledge that such help was given.
 
2013-04-10 12:32:14 PM
*resign* from the Committee...

*its* enemies controlled...
 
2013-04-10 12:44:02 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: Sorry, I'm not quite sure what point you think are tying to make here.

Schiff, the international banker who was quite literally BORN in the Rothschild house, and spent his life representing Rothschild interests, was "playing American".


/Farking political games. How do they work

You are claiming Schiff threw his support to US and not Germany because he was a zionist and the British promised the Zionists Palestine.  That ignores the fact eh stopped helping Germany three years before the Balfour declaration.



Why do you keep saying that I am "claiming" things that I never claimed, liam76?  Three years before the Balfour Declaration was signed the US was still officially NEUTRAL.

You're flailing.


liam76: Amos Quito: By the time armistice and negotiations with Germany were taking place, the Czar was finished. The Bolsheviks had taken control.

Actually it was still up for grabs who would take control (reds or whites). But for the sake of argument lets pretend you are right. Why then would German and the Zionists working together changed the outcome of the Bolschevicks taking control?



AGAIN, Why do you keep saying that I am "claiming" things that I never claimed, or saying things that I never said, liar76?

You're flailing.


liam76: Amos Quito: Did I ever say that the "Zionists threw completely in with the British"?

Did you ever say that? No



Thanks. Now please quit making shiat up. It makes you look dishonest.


liam76: But you love to make sweeping claims based upon a quote from Lloyd George tot hat effect. Are you saying that the support they gave the British wasn't as solid as you claimed?


As Lloyd George said, Zionists (and Jews in general) had largely supported Germany WHILE they were fighting the hated Czar. Once the Czar had abdicated and the Bolsheviks were in power (and the Balfour Declaration signed) the tide turned against the Germans in favor of the Allies.

Do you think the Germans felt betrayed - just a little?


liam76: Amos Quito: The Zionists had their own agenda. Gaining Palestine was certainly one goal, while overthrowing the Czar was another.

Once again, if they threw in with the Germans, who were fighting the Tsar, how would that have prevented bolschevicks from coming to power?



Once again, I'll thank you to stop claiming that I said things that I never said, liar76.


liam76: Was stopping the Tsar a "zionist goal" or was stopping the opression of Jews by the Tsar a jewish goal?



Yes.

liam76: There is absolutly no consistency in your claims about Zionism. You cherry pick random quotes and tiny factoids to try and paint a picture of how evil and powerful they were and ignore any facts you don't like.



You bring up NO FACTS AT ALL. Your entire debate strategy seems to be claiming that I said things I didn't say, or made claims that I didn't make, and then attacking the "logic" of the falsehoods you invent.

You're flailing, liar76.
 
2013-04-10 01:02:38 PM

Amos Quito: Why do you keep saying that I am "claiming" things that I never claimed, liam76? Three years before the Balfour Declaration was signed the US was still officially NEUTRAL.

You're flailing.


You never claimed that the Zionists threw their support in with Britian against Germany because of the Balfour Declaration?

You never claimed that Schiff was a Rothschild agent of Zionists?

Because the fact that Schiff was working against Germany 3 years before the Balfour Declaration hurts those claims.

Amos Quito: liam76:  But for the sake of argument lets pretend you are right. Why then would German and the Zionists working together changed the outcome of the Bolschevicks taking control?


AGAIN, Why do you keep saying that I am "claiming" things that I never claimed, or saying things that I never said, liar76?


You never said the following? 

Amos Quito: What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany, rather than the Brits? One thing thing comes to mind is that things would have likely gone MUCH differently in Russia - would the Bolsheviks have been able to launch the Soviet Union, killing their tens of millions?


You should probably have a word with the person typing for you.


Amos Quito: As Lloyd George said, Zionists (and Jews in general) had largely supported Germany WHILE they were fighting the hated Czar. Once the Czar had abdicated and the Bolsheviks were in power (and the Balfour Declaration signed) the tide turned against the Germans in favor of the Allies.

Do you think the Germans felt betrayed - just a little?


Not true.  Your own link about Schiff shows that isn't the case.  That while Germany was fighting the Tsar he was working against Germany.


Amos Quito: Once again, I'll thank you to stop claiming that I said things that I never said


I quoted your own words above.


Amos Quito: liam76: Was stopping the Tsar a "zionist goal" or was stopping the opression of Jews by the Tsar a jewish goal?

Yes.


Got it.  So whenever it is convientient you can conflate a jew helping another jew with a zionist plot.


Amos Quito: You bring up NO FACTS AT ALL. Your entire debate strategy seems to be claiming that I said things I didn't say, or made claims that I didn't make, and then attacking the "logic" of the falsehoods you invent.


Any facts I bring up outside you links you claim are BS.  All the fact I mentioned in this thread are things you brought up and come from your sources.

No my debate strategy is simply highlighting the inconsitencies with your BS claims of a powerful zionist conspiracy.
 
2013-04-10 01:12:02 PM

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: Did I ever say that the "Zionists threw completely in with the British"?

Did you ever say that? No

But you love to make sweeping claims based upon a quote from Lloyd George tot hat effect.  Are you saying that the support they gave the British wasn't as solid as you claimed?


Thanks. Now please quit making shiat up. It makes you look dishonest.

I am nto making shiat up, you are unclear.  Please clarify it for me.  Spell out exactly how much support the Zionists gave the British in return for the Balfour declaration.
 
2013-04-10 02:56:13 PM

tirob: Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito:

Not that these were the only villains of the era - our "ally" Stalin and his Commies were their own piece of work, don't you agree?
.

Yes.  They were Hitler's allies, too, for almost two years.

Amos Quito:

You know, I was perusing the thread that you linked to earlier - your last post, specifically, where you mention a book by Fritz Fischer who ponders how history may have been different had Germany actually won WWI. Sounds like an interesting read. Food for thought.
.

I recommend the book.  Fischer does devote several pages to the Wilhelmstrasse's attempts to appeal to Russian Jews to turn against their government, and to Zionists everywhere, including the US, to agitate in favor of Germany.



As I said earlier, it makes sense that a government would seek to work with those who may be able to help undermine the efforts of an enemy with whom they are at war.


tirob: The attempts were failures, and in the case of Russia, tragic failures, because once Russian military people got wind of what the Wilhelmstrasse was trying to do, they deported and in some cases even murdered Jews in Western Russia.



If they were attempting to undermine / sabotage the government, they would have been seen as traitors, and treated as such,


tirob: Amos Quito: tirob .

What if the Zionists had thrown their support behind Germany?


Fischer seems to think that the Zionists basically wrote Germany off after the Battle of the Marne.

p. 142: "After the military reverses of the autumn of 1914, the Executive Committee of the World Zionist Organization in Copenhagen pronounced in favour of strict neutrality, and forced all Zionist members to resigne from the Committee of Liberation [of the Jews of Russia, a body set up by the Wilhelmstrasse]; the latter then transformed itself into a relief organisation for the Jews of the [German-] occupied [Russian] territories.



"Strict neutrality"? It sounds like they were keeping their hand close to their vest, which would make sense, as had they openly declared allegiance to either side (at that point), they would have weakened their hand, and possibly jeopardized their ability to leverage both sides - which they later did.

One thing is sure, they made no pretense of supporting the Czar.


tirob: Fischer makes what I think is a convincing case that the Wilhelmstrasse's attempts to organize Jews and other minority nationalities of the Russian Empire against the Czar was part of the German government's worldwide policy to make life difficult for its British, French, and Russian enemies by fomenting dissent and rebellion in the territories their enemies controlled. One facet of this policy was support of the Bolsheviks. The dispatch by Berlin of Lenin and some of his Bolshevik comrades in arms from Switzerland to Finland was part of this policy. Less well known is the fact that Germany financed the Bolsheviks after Lenin's return to Russia.



Once again, working with allies to defeat a common enemy is not surprising.

What was perhaps surprising (to the Germans, at least) was that these Zionist allies should suddenly turn against them the moment Goal 1 (defeat of the Czar and installation of the Bolsheviks) was accomplished, and Goal 2 (securing Palestine) took priority.

Obviously the Germans didn't appreciate this "betrayal", and I find it hard to understand why many folks flatly refuse to consider that this may have played any role in the harsh enmity that arose between Ethnic Jews and German Nationals during the inter-war years - especially given the transition that overtook Russia following the revolution.
 
2013-04-10 03:18:35 PM

Amos Quito: liam76: You never claimed that Schiff was a Rothschild agent of Zionists?


Of course he was. I never said otherwise.


Woops!

Point of clarification here: I said that Schiff was a Rothschild agent, I never said he was "a Rothschild agent of Zionists".


Weasel-like typing detected, liar76.


/And there may be other
//Little scalawag likes to put words in people's mouths
///He does
 
2013-04-10 05:18:10 PM

Amos Quito: tirob:

If they were attempting to undermine / sabotage the government, they would have been seen as traitors, and treated as such
.



I don't know whether they were or weren't.  I know of no records of any courts-martial that exist.  I've seen references to the business in literature, and it sounds to me as if there were no courts-martial; people got tied to posts and shot on suspicion.

Amos Quito: :

"strict neutrality?".


No, I know of no German Zionists who supported the Czar.  At the risk of repeating myself, read Fischer's book.  He makes no further mention of any attempts by the Wilhelmstrasse to get in touch with Zionists after 1914 (or vice versa); the context of this was that the German Foreign Office decided very soon that its policy of trying to subvert Russia's minority nationalities wasn't working well.  It therefore decided to put its money--literally--on Russian radicals--including the Bolsheviks--instead.

Amos Quito: Zionist allies [of Germany]
.



There was no such alliance.  It exists in your mind only. The Germans made an abortive attempt to create one in 1914.  Read Fischer's book.


Amos Quito: betrayal

I find it hard to understand why many folks flatly refuse to consider


I have considered it.

1.  There was no alliance to betray on either side.

2.  I hate to recommend Mein Kampf to anyone, but as long as you're operating under the delusion that German-Jewish enmity came about as a result of a betrayal of a nonexistent German-Zionist alliance by the Zionist side, maybe you ought to read it.  Before Hitler was a mass murdering aggressor, he was a German politician.  And a consummate politician according to every report I have read.  One of his political themes was hostility to Jews, as you are probably aware.  In Mein Kampf, in order to appeal to his audience--the voters of Germany--he accused Jews (or often "the Jews") of just about every possible dereliction that ever existed, and some that he made up.  Conspicuously excepting betrayal of a German-Zionist alliance.

The speech that Hitler never gave:  "Germans!  We must force the Jews to their knees because the Zionists went over to the British during the last war!"
--

Amos Quito: ,

working with allies to defeat a common enemy is not surprising
..



The "allies" of the Germans that I was referring to were the Bolsheviks, not the Zionists, and the common enemy of both the Germans and the Bolsheviks between February and October 1917 wasn't the Czar, who was out of power at that time, but the Russian Provisional Government, which by and large had the support of that part of Russia's Jewish population that remained under its rule.  Let me add to something I said earlier:  I think that your command of 20th century German history is poor.  I think your command of 20th century Russian history is nonexistent.  I know that it is a common mistake here to believe that the Czar was immediately replaced by Lenin, but that is not the case at all.

Again:  Read Fischer's book.  The Kuehlmann quote that I cited above should put to rest once and for all your theory, based on one anecdote from Wickham Steed, that Jacob Schiff was the money man behind the Bolos.
 
2013-04-10 08:10:24 PM

Amos Quito: Amos Quito: liam76: You never claimed that Schiff was a Rothschild agent of Zionists?


Of course he was. I never said otherwise.

Woops!

Point of clarification here: I said that Schiff was a Rothschild agent, I never said he was "a Rothschild agent of Zionists".


That was your one "clarification"?  Ok.

So what?  Your argument seems to be that Rothschild was a "Zionist" and you can toss any action he takes as part of a Zionist plot.

What was the point of bringing up Schiff as one of his agents if he wasn't part of this Zionist plot?

Why was he important to bring up?  It seemed to me you were trying to strengthen your absurd claim of a powerful zionist conspiracy.  If he wasn't a part of that conspiracy then why are you bringing him up?  Unless, as I have said all along, you like to grab random bits of info and then pretend that proves some vast powerful Zionist conspiracy?
 
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