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(Guardian)   Meet the doctor who can revive heart attack patients who have been dead for hours   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 93
    More: Cool, heart attacks, Stony Brook, clinically dead, American Hospital Association, surgical team, stents, scientific skepticism, patients  
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17573 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2013 at 3:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-07 01:53:25 AM
He has a point. If your heart stops working, we have machines that can function to pump your blood (I don't mean an artificial heart, I mean a large, bulky machine). It's a matter of cost and hooking those machines up quickly enough. Death happens when we don't spend the resources to keep enough doctors with enough training with access to enough machines available.

Death by triage, but more so, because we as a society don't even ask if we should keep such resources available.
 
2013-04-07 02:32:29 AM
All possible, if they're only mostly dead...
 
2013-04-07 03:12:08 AM
When they come back, they generally come back as good as dead... brain damaged.
 
2013-04-07 03:12:40 AM
pics.livejournal.com

Was it this guy?
 
2013-04-07 03:16:33 AM
great. remember this when The Walking Dead interview for a position at your office.
 
2013-04-07 03:18:33 AM
It's not rape while she's dead, right?
 
2013-04-07 03:19:47 AM
"Some lines shouldn't be crossed."
 
2013-04-07 03:21:19 AM
media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-07 03:21:49 AM
i265.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-07 03:24:46 AM
He'll start something

0.tqn.com
 
2013-04-07 03:28:07 AM
I recall reading an article about this stuff a few years ago.  (Warning..not a doctor)  Researchers were trying to determine how long after death did brain damage and other organ damage occur.  What they discovered was that it really took hours before significant damage occurred, particularly if the body was cooled.

They also discovered that the damage resuscitators were encountering was occurring because the body's immune system treats revived cells as foreign and attacks them.  Basically, our current techniques were a big part of the problem.

Actually...here is the article:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/07/23/back-from-the-dead. ht ml
 
2013-04-07 03:37:00 AM

Nuclear Monk: I recall reading an article about this stuff a few years ago.  (Warning..not a doctor)  Researchers were trying to determine how long after death did brain damage and other organ damage occur.  What they discovered was that it really took hours before significant damage occurred, particularly if the body was cooled.


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-07 03:44:41 AM
What annoys me is that the new redundant hospital they're building in my town is advertising that it has iPod docks . . . based on the medical care I receive in this area, I'm guessing they've not heard of ECMO.
 
2013-04-07 03:45:05 AM

OptimusHime: [media.tumblr.com image 500x275]


Gads, that episode was awful. When I was introducing my girlfriend to "Doctor Who," I specifically skipped three episodes: "Love & Monsters," "The Lazarus Experiment" and "The Unicorn & the Wasp."

/The only classic "Who" she's seen is "City of Death." She got a little tired of the endless shots of running through Parisian streets, but really liked Baker and Ward.
 
2013-04-07 03:48:13 AM
Thought this thread was about Doctor Who. Leaving disappointed.
 
2013-04-07 03:50:43 AM

100 Watt Walrus: OptimusHime: [media.tumblr.com image 500x275]

Gads, that episode was awful. When I was introducing my girlfriend to "Doctor Who," I specifically skipped three episodes: "Love & Monsters," "The Lazarus Experiment" and "The Unicorn & the Wasp."

/The only classic "Who" she's seen is "City of Death." She got a little tired of the endless shots of running through Parisian streets, but really liked Baker and Ward.


Yeah.  The Russel T. Davies years were astonishingly hit and miss, in my opinion.

I usually start my friends off with Blink.  Just to ease them in.

With terrors.
 
2013-04-07 03:51:23 AM
I seem to recall HP Lovecraft writing something about that. Didn't end well.
 
2013-04-07 03:53:33 AM
I know about ECMO. It's been around for years and, yes, this Dr has a point and yes, IMO, he's correct.

However, the devices and materials needed to quickly cool down a body to prevent the death of brain cells are bulky and costly. ECMO is by no means cheap. Here in the USA, hospitals have been forced to stick to budgets, even close trauma centers, start refusing uninsured patients and basically consider costs over human lives.

There is a machine which can administer the hardest part of CPR -- the chest compressions -- and it's tireless, but again, it aint cheap so you're not going to see very many of them around.

Until we can figure out a way to drop the costs of medical care, a whole lot of folks are going to die because they can't afford to pay the bills.

I take care of my elderly mom, who managed to get good health insurance when my Dad was alive and the Division of Family Services put her on an Elder Care medication plan instead of her own insurance plan of Medicare Pt. D.

This means she pays little to nothing for her medications. I got a summery in the mail and was startled to find that ONE of her medications costs $400. A trip to the hospital via ambulance resulted in us getting a $500 bill. C-scans START at $1000.

I had artificial lenses put in both eyes. I'm on disability and have to pay a co-payment, but when I saw the total bill, I was startled. $2000 per eye. The surgery took maybe an hour. I went home the same day. Then there were other things tagged onto the bill.

So, with budget cuts being forced on hospitals and the cost of medical instrumentation soaring, bringing a person 'back from the dead' might cost $25,000.

What if they can't pay? What if their HMO decides not to cover it?

The cost of an MRI machine is around half a million bucks. The same for a CT scanner. The last time I checked, the use of a surgical room for an operation started at $1000 an hour.

I had kidney stones. I went to the ER. I had a CT scan and a couple of injections and the incredible pain went away. I left with a prescription. I was in the ER 3 hours, with roughly two of them being basically left alone.

The bill was $2000. The pain killing injection was over $100.

I think the cost will stop the US from widely applying this Doctor's new discoveries.

This would not be the first time great new life saving techniques have been held back because of cost and it will not be the last.
 
2013-04-07 03:53:39 AM
That's at least a level 7 cleric.
 
2013-04-07 03:55:37 AM
Man, I really wanna do some DMT. Don't have any clue where to get it.

/this is the chemical your brain makes when you die so you feel like you're going up to heaven
 
2013-04-07 03:56:09 AM

OptimusHime: 100 Watt Walrus: OptimusHime: [media.tumblr.com image 500x275]

Gads, that episode was awful. When I was introducing my girlfriend to "Doctor Who," I specifically skipped three episodes: "Love & Monsters," "The Lazarus Experiment" and "The Unicorn & the Wasp."

/The only classic "Who" she's seen is "City of Death." She got a little tired of the endless shots of running through Parisian streets, but really liked Baker and Ward.

Yeah.  The Russel T. Davies years were astonishingly hit and miss, in my opinion.

I usually start my friends off with Blink.  Just to ease them in.

With terrors.


Actually, yeah. That's where I started her too. I think I took her to "Girl in the Fireplace" next, and once hooked, back to the beginning of Eccleston and took her all the way through.

She'd gotten me hooked on "Buffy" several years ago, and "Doctor Who" was me returning the favor, with interest.
 
2013-04-07 03:58:16 AM

Rik01:
I had kidney stones. I went to the ER. I had a CT scan and a couple of injections...


Been there, done that.

Toradol is your friend. An NSAID that makes the pain disappear without morphene.
 
2013-04-07 04:03:38 AM

100 Watt Walrus: OptimusHime: 100 Watt Walrus: OptimusHime: [media.tumblr.com image 500x275]

Gads, that episode was awful. When I was introducing my girlfriend to "Doctor Who," I specifically skipped three episodes: "Love & Monsters," "The Lazarus Experiment" and "The Unicorn & the Wasp."

/The only classic "Who" she's seen is "City of Death." She got a little tired of the endless shots of running through Parisian streets, but really liked Baker and Ward.

Yeah.  The Russel T. Davies years were astonishingly hit and miss, in my opinion.

I usually start my friends off with Blink.  Just to ease them in.

With terrors.

Actually, yeah. That's where I started her too. I think I took her to "Girl in the Fireplace" next, and once hooked, back to the beginning of Eccleston and took her all the way through.

She'd gotten me hooked on "Buffy" several years ago, and "Doctor Who" was me returning the favor, with interest.


That's a damn good trade!

Blink is kind of perfect as an episode IMO like Alien is the perfect horror movie.  And in the same sense that the Time of Angels is basically Aliens... the Clerics are the marines, the caves are the Hadley's Hope, they go in, get separated, trapped, and picked off one by one...

And the Girl in the Fireplace is an excellent way to follow up.  I've been netflixing Foyle's War lately and saw the the girl who guested on one episode.  She's just astonishingly good.  So far my route has been to take people from Blink into the Matt Smith generation since it's got the most throughline, but so much of it calls back to the old canon it's still jarring enough that I want to take people back to Eccleston instead.
 
2013-04-07 04:04:12 AM
I got $50 that says Dick Cheney has intimate and repeated experience with this shiat.

Any takers?

/we'll draw straws to see who climbs Mt. DeathRock to his lair and asks him
 
2013-04-07 04:06:43 AM

Rik01: I know about ECMO. It's been around for years and, yes, this Dr has a point and yes, IMO, he's correct.

However, the devices and materials needed to quickly cool down a body to prevent the death of brain cells are bulky and costly. ECMO is by no means cheap. Here in the USA, hospitals have been forced to stick to budgets, even close trauma centers, start refusing uninsured patients and basically consider costs over human lives.

There is a machine which can administer the hardest part of CPR -- the chest compressions -- and it's tireless, but again, it aint cheap so you're not going to see very many of them around.

Until we can figure out a way to drop the costs of medical care, a whole lot of folks are going to die because they can't afford to pay the bills.

I take care of my elderly mom, who managed to get good health insurance when my Dad was alive and the Division of Family Services put her on an Elder Care medication plan instead of her own insurance plan of Medicare Pt. D.

This means she pays little to nothing for her medications. I got a summery in the mail and was startled to find that ONE of her medications costs $400. A trip to the hospital via ambulance resulted in us getting a $500 bill. C-scans START at $1000.

I had artificial lenses put in both eyes. I'm on disability and have to pay a co-payment, but when I saw the total bill, I was startled. $2000 per eye. The surgery took maybe an hour. I went home the same day. Then there were other things tagged onto the bill.

So, with budget cuts being forced on hospitals and the cost of medical instrumentation soaring, bringing a person 'back from the dead' might cost $25,000.

What if they can't pay? What if their HMO decides not to cover it?

The cost of an MRI machine is around half a million bucks. The same for a CT scanner. The last time I checked, the use of a surgical room for an operation started at $1000 an hour.

I had kidney stones. I went to the ER. I had a CT scan and a couple of injections and the incredible pain went away. I left with a prescription. I was in the ER 3 hours, with roughly two of them being basically left alone.

The bill was $2000. The pain killing injection was over $100.

I think the cost will stop the US from widely applying this Doctor's new discoveries.

This would not be the first time great new life saving techniques have been held back because of cost and it will not be the last.


We really need to ask ourselves why some of this shiat costs so damn much. Simply put, everyone at every step of a patient's care profits off of their sickness and sometimes in spite of the patient. My mom had a surgury, was.maybe a 1 hour prep time, a 1 hour procedure followed by a 4 hour stay in the bed for recovery. Total cost was like $55,000. Insurance "negotiated" it down to $22k or so. 3500 an hour for that. Asinine!
 
2013-04-07 04:12:36 AM
He's plugging a book. His claims have been all over the British press recently.

His basic schtick is to define anyone in cardiac arrest as "dead" and then claim that anyone who survives it has been brought back from the dead. Since modern medicine recognises that it is extremely hard to define death, and that cardiac arrest is no where near enough, this initial load of bullshiat ought to temper consideration of anything more he has to say.
 
2013-04-07 04:18:40 AM
UK has that evil socialized heath care is introducing this into hospitals.  But the US with private health care gives up after manual CPR.  Now where did I leave that dusty argument about socialized heath care destroying advanced medicine?  I know it's around here somewhere...  Oh there it is under that Obamacare critic.
 
2013-04-07 04:24:13 AM
So this is one of the ten things the government doesn't want you to know, right?
 
2013-04-07 04:24:38 AM
So, yeah, it's been recognized for a long, long time that individual organs can fail for quite a while with the rest of the body running on medical support: kidneys, diaphragm, parts of the colon can all be replaced by machinery almost indefinitely.  Heart, lungs, etc for more limited periods.

The only new thing here is that he's playing with a definition of "death" that's more than half a century out of date (your heart stopping being 'dead' is not something any modern person would think of as the real definition) to troll religious people.  Which is funny, yes, but not terribly impressive.
 
2013-04-07 04:42:58 AM
"you would have had a 33% chance of being brought back from death. In an average American hospital, that figure would have fallen to 16% and (though the data is patchy) roughly the same, or less, if your heart were to have stopped beating in a British hospital."

Stopped reading right there.

This is just another Murdoch-backed puff piece about how great health care is in America and how socialized systems are flawed. I'd sooner go to a superior Cuban or Canadian hospitals than the bear trap that is the for-profit American medical system.
 
2013-04-07 04:43:35 AM
FTFA - "Even prominent neuroscientists, such as Sir John Eccles, a Nobel prizewinner, believe that we are never going to understand mind through neuronal activity."

Yes but that doesn't mean it's magic, ethereal or anything non physical.

It's identical to not being able to understand how MS Windows works by looking at a motherboard.
 
2013-04-07 04:43:41 AM
Been there, done that.  Read my profile for the story.

peoplemedicine.net

This guy, Dr. "Red" Duke, had a lot to do with me being alive today.  And it was partly because I wasn't supposed to be ;)
 
2013-04-07 05:22:23 AM

Fart_Machine: Was it this guy?


Came for this, leaving with my head under my arm
 
2013-04-07 05:36:23 AM
cf.drafthouse.com

/obligatory
 
2013-04-07 05:42:48 AM

orbister: His basic schtick is to define anyone in cardiac arrest as "dead"


Thank you for pointing this out.  Someone who has actually been dead for hours cannot be brought back to life no matter what you do.
 
2013-04-07 06:00:07 AM
As someone who experienced a heart attack, I'm getting a big chest compression from this thread!
 
2013-04-07 06:49:17 AM
See, there are advantages to build a hospital over an ancient Indian burial ground.
 
2013-04-07 06:49:27 AM
It's pronounced, Fraun-ken-shteen!
 
2013-04-07 07:21:41 AM

ka1axy: It's pronounced, Fraun-ken-shteen!


Ok, then it's pronounced Eye-gore.
 
2013-04-07 07:38:03 AM

Nuclear Monk: They also discovered that the damage resuscitators were encountering was occurring because the body's immune system treats revived cells as foreign and attacks them.  Basically, our current techniques were a big part of the problem.


Hmm, well, that actually makes a lot of sense. If all of a sudden cells marked by the body as dead started coming back to life, the immune system should generally be trying to shut that the hell down before it gets out of hand in  most cases. Complete revival though, notsomuch.
 
2013-04-07 08:17:24 AM

there their theyre: Rik01: I know about ECMO. It's been around for years and, yes, this Dr has a point and yes, IMO, he's correct.

However, the devices and materials needed to quickly cool down a body to prevent the death of brain cells are bulky and costly. ECMO is by no means cheap. Here in the USA, hospitals have been forced to stick to budgets, even close trauma centers, start refusing uninsured patients and basically consider costs over human lives.


I would point out that ECMO is also expensive in blood. Typically you have to keep a good portion of blood outside the machine (to do the oxidation), and you don't use the patients own blood in some cases (children in particular) so you've got to factor in the cost of blood.
 
2013-04-07 08:20:57 AM

Fart_Machine: [pics.livejournal.com image 389x310]

Was it this guy?


Nope. It was this guy.

upload.wikimedia.org

"The good news is, I was able to bring you back to life. The bad news is, now every heartbeat sounds like the screams of the damned, and you'll give birth to 1000 demons during every night of a full moon. The other good news is that you get a free frozen yogurt. The bad news is that the sprinkles contain potassium benzoate and the souls of serial killers that died on Death Row"
 
2013-04-07 08:26:29 AM
 
2013-04-07 08:34:07 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: Fart_Machine: [pics.livejournal.com image 389x310]

Was it this guy?

Nope. It was this guy.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x335]

"The good news is, I was able to bring you back to life. The bad news is, now every heartbeat sounds like the screams of the damned, and you'll give birth to 1000 demons during every night of a full moon. The other good news is that you get a free frozen yogurt. The bad news is that the sprinkles contain potassium benzoate and the souls of serial killers that died on Death Row"





Is it bad that I read that quote in Dr. Orpheus's voice?
 
2013-04-07 08:50:54 AM

Sgygus: When they come back, they generally come back as good as dead... brain damaged.


Or worse, millions of dollars in debt.
 
2013-04-07 08:53:47 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: Fart_Machine: [pics.livejournal.com image 389x310]

Was it this guy?

Nope. It was this guy.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x335]


www.project-index.net

"Hi, I'm calling to let you know you got my photo wrong again."
 
2013-04-07 09:00:39 AM

HotWingAgenda: orbister: His basic schtick is to define anyone in cardiac arrest as "dead"

Thank you for pointing this out.  Someone who has actually been dead for hours cannot be brought back to life no matter what you do.


So, the criteria for death is a long period of time (hours) time... in a dead-like state?
 
2013-04-07 09:11:25 AM

Rik01: I know about ECMO. It's been around for years and, yes, this Dr has a point and yes, IMO, he's correct.

However, the devices and materials needed to quickly cool down a body to prevent the death of brain cells are bulky and costly. ECMO is by no means cheap. Here in the USA, hospitals have been forced to stick to budgets, even close trauma centers, start refusing uninsured patients and basically consider costs over human lives.

There is a machine which can administer the hardest part of CPR -- the chest compressions -- and it's tireless, but again, it aint cheap so you're not going to see very many of them around.

Until we can figure out a way to drop the costs of medical care, a whole lot of folks are going to die because they can't afford to pay the bills.

I take care of my elderly mom, who managed to get good health insurance when my Dad was alive and the Division of Family Services put her on an Elder Care medication plan instead of her own insurance plan of Medicare Pt. D.

This means she pays little to nothing for her medications. I got a summery in the mail and was startled to find that ONE of her medications costs $400. A trip to the hospital via ambulance resulted in us getting a $500 bill. C-scans START at $1000.

I had artificial lenses put in both eyes. I'm on disability and have to pay a co-payment, but when I saw the total bill, I was startled. $2000 per eye. The surgery took maybe an hour. I went home the same day. Then there were other things tagged onto the bill.

So, with budget cuts being forced on hospitals and the cost of medical instrumentation soaring, bringing a person 'back from the dead' might cost $25,000.

What if they can't pay? What if their HMO decides not to cover it?

The cost of an MRI machine is around half a million bucks. The same for a CT scanner. The last time I checked, the use of a surgical room for an operation started at $1000 an hour.

I had kidney stones. I went to the ER. I had a CT scan and a couple of injections an ...


$2000? That's nothing. I had Winter Park Hospital try to bill me 20k for a CT scan and a prescription by a flippant doctor.
I even got my insurance company to tell that doctor to fark off.
 
2013-04-07 09:15:53 AM
So in other words, costs a lot and sometimes it works. CPR machines are a good idea though. We are trying to budget for them. Asystole dead is pretty much dead doc.
 
2013-04-07 09:19:42 AM
The cart looked nice, why didn't you let me go on it?
 
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