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(The New York Times)   After careful analysis of mass shootings, police advise that members of the public who find themselves in the midst of one should "run away, hide, or fight back." This report was delivered by police spokesmen Capt. Obvious and Detective N.S. Sherlock   (nytimes.com) divider line 231
    More: Obvious, mass shooting, Texas State University, Houston Police Department, Columbine High School, Holocaust survivors, Virginia Tech, Seung-Hui Cho  
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2159 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Apr 2013 at 7:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-06 10:58:38 PM
I hope I'm never in such a scenario, but should I ever find myself in one I think I'd try to find a small place and hide. If it's a crowded, confined space such as a movie theatre, people like me are liable to get trampled if we try to make a run for it with everyone else.

A few years ago I was at a concert and someone set off some firecrackers nearby. At first it sounded like gunshots and as the crowd surged away from the sounds I was literally carried off my feet by the mass of people. It only lasted a few seconds, but I was honestly scared to death. It was like being washed away by a raging river of humanity.
 
2013-04-06 11:00:11 PM

o5iiawah: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: o5iiawah: Princess Ryans Knickers: And in not one of the mass shootings over the past 30 years was it stopped by a bystander with a gun. Tackling after running out of ammo, yes. Police intervention, yes. Shooter kills self. Never by a person carrying.

The Clackamas mall shooter offed himself after a CCW drew on him.  He was in the midst of monkeying around with the charging handle on his AR after one of those evil, scary drum mags failed like they usually do.

So yes, the reason CCW holders dont stop many spree shooters is because the spree shooter is usually stopped after 1 or 2 killed.

Yeah, I remember him.  His name was Nick Meli, and the only person who could verify the story was... Nick Meli.  Confirmation bias really farks with your critical thinking skills, doesn't it?  Retard.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/security _g uard_said_he_had_rob.html

Authorities confirmed Monday that Meli was seen during the incident, gun drawn, near the entrance to Macy's inside the mall.

Seems the people who say he was there with his gun drawn was him, and bystanders, who corroberated his story to the police, who were satisfied with the testimony and included it in their report.

Like a cat chasing a laser pen...you think you're the smartest person in the room.


Yeah, one local paper citing "authorities."  Show me somebody with a title putting their name next to his claims.  That's why no major media outlets reported this nonsense, that's why Wikipedia only goes as far to say "Meli asserts that Roberts saw him, and that this may have contributed to Roberts' decision to commit suicide."  Also, your article said nothing about the nameless authorities attributing the end of the shooting to Meli, just that he was there with a gun. I don't think I'm the smartest person in the room, but I certainly think I'm smarter than the person I'm talking shiat to.
 
2013-04-06 11:00:16 PM
trappedspirit:  If the "obvious" tag was meant to imply that everyone already has a strategically ordered, multi-step plan in place for this type of events then I'd have to invite you to come to planet Earth from where ever you are and experience a day of reality with our fellow species.  Because your ivory tower has achieved orbit and beyond.

My personal plan is to soil myself and then come up with a plan.

Really, though, the first thing they teach you is that the best confrontation is the one you don't get into in the first place, therefore run away.  Barring that, hide.  Last resort, defend yourself.
 
2013-04-06 11:01:25 PM

Silly Jesus: WordyGrrl: Not long ago, I saw a video about a test to see how well (or if) college students could stop or survive an gunman's attack at a school. All the student participants were taken out to the range, taught how to use the handguns, etc. All felt confident that they could stop the attacker. But when the simulation went live, the students either panicked, froze or fumbled with the weapon and everybody in the scenario got shot.

Umm, I saw something similar, without the everyone getting shot part.  Got a link to that?


Oh, of course not. I Googled to heck and back and couldn't find it again. It was some news program-type thingie. In any case, it did get the message across that no matter how well you think you're prepared, when the real thing goes down it will not conform to your perfect pre-planned mentally-thought-out scenario.
 
2013-04-06 11:01:54 PM

Mister Peejay: trappedspirit:  If the "obvious" tag was meant to imply that everyone already has a strategically ordered, multi-step plan in place for this type of events then I'd have to invite you to come to planet Earth from where ever you are and experience a day of reality with our fellow species.  Because your ivory tower has achieved orbit and beyond.

My personal plan is to soil myself and then come up with a plan.

Really, though, the first thing they teach you is that the best confrontation is the one you don't get into in the first place, therefore run away.  Barring that, hide.  Last resort, defend yourself.


The difficulty in that is deciding when that last resort line is. By the time you finally think it's the last resort, you may have already lost your only chance at fighting back and making it out alive.
 
2013-04-06 11:02:11 PM
Didn't read the whole thread (who has time?) but...

Did anyone else suspect that TFA is nothing more than a structured propaganda piece designed - not to educate the public - but to scare the shiat out of them, making them beLIEve that these events are every day occurrences so that we'll swallow the stupid and pointless gun laws that Feinstein, Obey and their ilk are pushing?

/my office is under a flight path
//I live in fear of having a plan crash into me
///All day - EVERY DAY


/Ban planes
 
2013-04-06 11:04:12 PM

duenor: August, 1999. I was not even 21 yet, and had only one rifle to my name, a Bushmaster AR15 clone (XM15). About 8pm, heard lots of yelling downstairs (I was in my upstairs studio). Then, shots. I loaded and turned off the tv. Went outside to the top of the stairs leading to my apt and its two adjacent ones. Wanted to make sure I could control who was coming up. Mostly hid at the top, behind the railing alongside the stairs. I heard about another 2 shots, and then nothing more. Police sirens about 2-3 minutes later.  Found out much later that someone had fired shots at a nearby apartment building. Nobody was hit (I think).

Did I stop the shooter? No.
Did I save anyone's life? No.
Did I even use my rifle to defend myself? No.

But I'll tell you one thing. I sure as hell felt a lot safer. So did my neighbor, who saw me sitting there. He got his baseball bat and hung out with me there until cops had the whole 4x4 blocks locked down with chopper overhead and all.

I'd like to think that I have what it takes to stop a murderer if it comes to it. But if nothing else, I am responsible for my own safety - and I did so without depending on the vagaries of others.


CSB I wonder what you (or anyone else) would have done if someone would have suddenly charged up the stairs screaming wild obscenities?
Not trying to bust on you in any way, just wondering.
 
2013-04-06 11:05:09 PM

DrExplosion: and hoping for a headshot is still better than hoping he runs out of ammo before he gets to you.



Hoping for headshot? This isn't like a video game.


Unless you have extensive training and skill with your weapon, you aren't getting a headshot. Attempting to shoot will direct the attacker's focus on you. He has bigger guns, protection, bigger bullets and more bullets and a lot less to lose than you.

The chances that you are significantly more trained than the shooter is very unlikely.
 
2013-04-06 11:08:22 PM

Publikwerks: Silly Jesus: I've been informed by libs that cowering defenseless in a corner is the best action against someone shooting a gun at you.  Under no circumstances should you perform the action that has gotten all of the mass shooters to stop or commit suicide, arrive with a gun.

The more you know...

Because the surest way to limit the body count is to have people return fire.
Because it never goes wrong. Especially when the shooters have extensive training..


Oh wait

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/nyregion/bystanders-shooting-wounds - caused-by-the-police.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0">http://www.nytimes.com /2012/08/26/nyregion/bystanders-shooting-wounds- caused-by-the-police.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But you know, us libs are just silly folks. You, trying to limit gunfire around kids.


Wait... Are you trying to say that cops have "extensive training"?

Most LEO's couldn't hit water if they fell out of a farking boat.  Just trying to get 98% of your officers to actually show up to the range and burn they're training allotment of ammunition is a pain in the ass.  Depending on the jurisdiction, probably 5 out of 100 officers will actually be "shooters" and those are your real bump and rumble troops.  Other than that, you've got a lot of public servants with badges and guns out there.
 
2013-04-06 11:08:29 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: I don't think you are talking out of your ass, but it sure sounds that way. There are some serious CCWs around.


You think you can be better armed than a guy who is doing a mass shooting?
 
2013-04-06 11:09:18 PM
duenor:
The difficulty in that is deciding when that last resort line is. By the time you finally think it's the last resort, you may have already lost your only chance at fighting back and making it out alive.

Indeed.  There are of course other factors, and every situation is different anyway.

Nice post earlier, by the way.  Your actions made logical sense, but I've a feeling you were probably just a little bit on edge while it was happening, or immediately after the situation defused.

/can handle emergency situations but get the shakes BAD after everything cools down
 
2013-04-06 11:11:21 PM

Silly Jesus: Because sirens in the distance cause him to off himself but he would stand there and return fire if being directly engaged. Riiiiiight.


Not the batman movie shooter though.
 
2013-04-06 11:13:23 PM

Amos Quito: Mass shootings are so common these days, I tell ya.

I have personally lived through seven mass shootings in the past year alone, and they're scary.

Worse than driving in snow.


I recall several years ago Farkers telling us that terrorist attacks were statistically so unlikely that we needn't worry about them, much less pass new laws to prevent them... and yet these are the same people who are nowadays running about like chickens with their heads cut off about school shootings.
 
2013-04-06 11:26:45 PM

mr0x: DrExplosion: and hoping for a headshot is still better than hoping he runs out of ammo before he gets to you.


Hoping for headshot? This isn't like a video game.


Unless you have extensive training and skill with your weapon, you aren't getting a headshot. Attempting to shoot will direct the attacker's focus on you. He has bigger guns, protection, bigger bullets and more bullets and a lot less to lose than you.

The chances that you are significantly more trained than the shooter is very unlikely.


No... Actually it's not.  Most people involved in these mass shootings actually have very little in the way of training at all, which is one of the reasons they tend to pick areas where they're virtually guaranteed people won't be shooting back (V-Tech, Newtown, etc.).  About the only recent shooter with any real level of training could have been the Fort Hood dickhead, but even then he was an O-4 head-shrinker that most likely had very little live fire training (unless he trained on his own).  Even then, he also picked a "gun free zone" as a military base is one of the most unarmed places in the United States.

As far as better protected... No on that as well.  Despite what the movies say, body armor is extremely rare in these case with the only notable event I can think of being the North Hollywood shootout.

The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".

Why do you think these jerkoffs pop themselves after anybody with a gun shows up?
 
2013-04-06 11:27:11 PM
Its funny how fast the word "statistically" would be irrelevant when some nut starts shooting.
 
2013-04-06 11:29:18 PM

thorthor: duenor: August, 1999. I was not even 21 yet, and had only one rifle to my name, a Bushmaster AR15 clone (XM15). About 8pm, heard lots of yelling downstairs (I was in my upstairs studio). Then, shots. I loaded and turned off the tv. Went outside to the top of the stairs leading to my apt and its two adjacent ones. Wanted to make sure I could control who was coming up. Mostly hid at the top, behind the railing alongside the stairs. I heard about another 2 shots, and then nothing more. Police sirens about 2-3 minutes later.  Found out much later that someone had fired shots at a nearby apartment building. Nobody was hit (I think).

Did I stop the shooter? No.
Did I save anyone's life? No.
Did I even use my rifle to defend myself? No.

But I'll tell you one thing. I sure as hell felt a lot safer. So did my neighbor, who saw me sitting there. He got his baseball bat and hung out with me there until cops had the whole 4x4 blocks locked down with chopper overhead and all.

I'd like to think that I have what it takes to stop a murderer if it comes to it. But if nothing else, I am responsible for my own safety - and I did so without depending on the vagaries of others.

CSB I wonder what you (or anyone else) would have done if someone would have suddenly charged up the stairs screaming wild obscenities?
Not trying to bust on you in any way, just wondering.


CSB indeed, and no proof of all, but that's how these things tend to go. no sane gun owner is about to go advertising to the cops and to any local crackheads what he's got at home.
What would I have done? Did he look like a threat? Carrying a gun? Really big? et al. Cases like that, it's a judgment call, and a tough one. That's what training is for but in the end it's what you believe in, and willing to risk.

I'd like to think that I'd make myself known and order him to stop or else I'd feel like I'm threatened. If he stops, end of story and either he turns around or he stays put and cops come get him. If he keeps coming at me, I'd probably shoot him.

It's why I have plenty of respect for those that eschew guns. Their life, their choice. But I ought to have my own.
 
2013-04-06 11:30:08 PM

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: That's why no major media outlets reported this nonsense,


Well surely if it didn't appear as a frontline story on Nancy Grace it didn't actually happen.

That is your argument.

Listen to how dumb you sound.

WordyGrrl: Oh, of course not. I Googled to heck and back and couldn't find it again. It was some news program-type thingie. In any case, it did get the message across that no matter how well you think you're prepared, when the real thing goes down it will not conform to your perfect pre-planned mentally-thought-out scenario.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

first scenario: armed intruder knows the layout of the room and who is shooting. The CCW defense shooter is wearing a t-shirt 2 sizes too big and gets the gun snagged inside it.

second scenario: She engages the shooter while others scram for safety

third scenario: defense shooter instantly takes cover and is then ambushed by the shooters who know where he is.  Funny how each of the students were in the same seat each time.

In other news, ABC took a police marksman instructor and put him against a novice shooter and a couple of complete newbies. Not surprisingly, the cops win. Conclusion: CCW holders are delusional.

Of course, there was another instance where a shooter busted into a room and nobody had a CCW.  That would be called Sandy Hook.
 
2013-04-06 11:34:48 PM

mr0x: Zeb Hesselgresser: I don't think you are talking out of your ass, but it sure sounds that way. There are some serious CCWs around.

You think you can be better armed than a guy who is doing a mass shooting?


That's one strong argument against magazine-size limits.  Reloading takes very little time at all, but if you are merely carrying and not planning on starting something, you're probably not going to be carrying more than the one magazine.  So someone who is armed for self-defense only has five or ten or whatever but someone who is interested in causing a ruckus will still be fairly unlimited in what they will have.

/one argument "for" was "clips are expensive so people will only have one anyway"
/they're, what, $30 or so?  that's like how much three 9mm rounds cost nowadays
 
2013-04-06 11:34:56 PM

Silly Jesus: CruiserTwelve: Silly Jesus: If a lib was in a movie theater that was actively being shot up and laying on the floor next to a guy that said "damn, just my luck, the one day I didn't carry my gun", the lib would actually be thankful that he'd forgotten it.  I just can't understand that.

"I'm being shot at, good thing I and everyone around me is defenseless!"

Lib brains should be studied.

You're kind of an idiot, aren't you?

Awww, and I had you Farkied as "Smart."

What makes me an idiot?


Your mom and dad being brother and sister, I'm guessing.
 
2013-04-06 11:37:38 PM
Mister Peejay:Nice post earlier, by the way.  Your actions made logical sense, but I've a feeling you were probably just a little bit on edge while it was happening, or immediately after the situation defused.

/can handle emergency situations but get the shakes BAD after everything cools down


I didn't have shakes that time, most likely because nothing actually came up the stairs. But venturing out of my house with a loaded gun in my hand made me feel VERY uncomfortable, because I was afraid that my neighbors would see it and think differently of me (or maybe call the cops on me). Where I'm from guns are like your porn collection - you never talk about it and never show it to anyone (unless you know them well). I would take apart my gun and cover it up when taking it to my car and back. I still make every effort to keep what I have a secret.

I do know what you are referring to, though. The worst for me is feeling my legs wobbly, like my calf muscles aren't working right.
 
2013-04-06 11:38:31 PM

Ontos: The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".



Really? A guy who decides to do a mass shooting has less experience with firearms than an average person?
 
2013-04-06 11:42:13 PM

mr0x: Ontos: The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".


Really? A guy who decides to do a mass shooting has less experience with firearms than an average person?


Buying a gun and deciding to go out and shoot up a mall or a schoolyard does not mean someone has any training.  By and large, the idiots that do shiat like this have very little in the way of training.  You don't get that from just buying shiat.

I didn't say the average person, I said the average shooter.
 
2013-04-06 11:42:13 PM

mr0x: Ontos: The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".


Really? A guy who decides to do a mass shooting has less experience with firearms than an average person?


He didn't say average person, he said average civilian hobbyist. To be fair, however, I'm not sure that's even relevant. Most mass shootings tend to take place at close to very close range, with the targets basically staying in one place, cowering, begging for their lives. Then again, if there was someone shooting back there might be a chance for those who are unarmed to get away. I don't know.
 
2013-04-06 11:44:42 PM

duenor: thorthor: duenor: August, 1999. I was not even 21 yet, and had only one rifle to my name, a Bushmaster AR15 clone (XM15). About 8pm, heard lots of yelling downstairs (I was in my upstairs studio). Then, shots. I loaded and turned off the tv. Went outside to the top of the stairs leading to my apt and its two adjacent ones. Wanted to make sure I could control who was coming up. Mostly hid at the top, behind the railing alongside the stairs. I heard about another 2 shots, and then nothing more. Police sirens about 2-3 minutes later.  Found out much later that someone had fired shots at a nearby apartment building. Nobody was hit (I think).

Did I stop the shooter? No.
Did I save anyone's life? No.
Did I even use my rifle to defend myself? No.

But I'll tell you one thing. I sure as hell felt a lot safer. So did my neighbor, who saw me sitting there. He got his baseball bat and hung out with me there until cops had the whole 4x4 blocks locked down with chopper overhead and all.

I'd like to think that I have what it takes to stop a murderer if it comes to it. But if nothing else, I am responsible for my own safety - and I did so without depending on the vagaries of others.

CSB I wonder what you (or anyone else) would have done if someone would have suddenly charged up the stairs screaming wild obscenities?
Not trying to bust on you in any way, just wondering.

CSB indeed, and no proof of all, but that's how these things tend to go. no sane gun owner is about to go advertising to the cops and to any local crackheads what he's got at home.
What would I have done? Did he look like a threat? Carrying a gun? Really big? et al. Cases like that, it's a judgment call, and a tough one. That's what training is for but in the end it's what you believe in, and willing to risk.

I'd like to think that I'd make myself known and order him to stop or else I'd feel like I'm threatened. If he stops, end of story and either he turns around or he stays put and cops come get him. If he keeps coming at me, I'd probably shoot him.

It's why I have plenty of respect for those that eschew guns. Their life, their choice. But I ought to have my own.


Totally agree. Just terrifies me that I might shoot the innocent party and spend the rest of my short, butt stretched life in prison. Complicated issue. No black/white answers no matter how much back and forth goes on in these discussions.
 
2013-04-06 11:46:05 PM

duenor: mr0x: Ontos: The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".


Really? A guy who decides to do a mass shooting has less experience with firearms than an average person?

He didn't say average person, he said average civilian hobbyist. To be fair, however, I'm not sure that's even relevant. Most mass shootings tend to take place at close to very close range, with the targets basically staying in one place, cowering, begging for their lives. Then again, if there was someone shooting back there might be a chance for those who are unarmed to get away. I don't know.


Or, if there was a chance someone was armed, in all likelyhood the would be spree shooter would simply pick a softer target, one which provided easy targets, little resistance and victims for which the public would be more sympathetic.

There's a reason you dont hear of any mass-shootings at Bass Pro shops in Georgia.
 
2013-04-06 11:47:09 PM

ExtremeFajita: Lsherm: Fano: I thought hiding then fighting back was murder 1 with malice aforethought.

I don't think it's murder if the attacker is still shooting, regardless of whether or not you hid first.  Maybe he discovered your hiding spot?  Then what?

Well then, you get what you deserve. God hates campers.


I used to routinely get booted of original Half Life deathmatch servers before I learned how to move around with the mouse.  I would just find a secure spot and snipe people from a distance.
 
Rat
2013-04-06 11:49:17 PM
All those years in the Army shooting things, I'm pretty sure I was always hiding behind something.  If I didn't have a clear shot, one would assume that I was just 'hiding'.

I still enjoy shooting things, but now I don't have to hide (unless camo during deer season counts).  I hope I never have to again, but by the grace of the great state of Texas, I'm ready.

©
 
2013-04-06 11:50:06 PM
I wanted the desk nearest the front door at our office. I told the boss I was trained to rush a shooter in the unlikely event of an "incident" and told him a shooter would be just past my cube if it happened.
I got the spot.

/yes. that's is my training.
//yes. I would take a bullet(s) for my coworkers.
///Ain't gonna happen. We have more security as a private concern than the local DHS office.
 
2013-04-06 11:52:57 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: I recall several years ago Farkers telling us that terrorist attacks were statistically so unlikely that we needn't worry about them, much less pass new laws to prevent them... and yet these are the same people who are nowadays running about like chickens with their heads cut off about school shootings.


[citationneeded.jpg]
 
2013-04-06 11:54:10 PM

mr0x: DrExplosion: and hoping for a headshot is still better than hoping he runs out of ammo before he gets to you.


Hoping for headshot? This isn't like a video game.


Unless you have extensive training and skill with your weapon, you aren't getting a headshot. Attempting to shoot will direct the attacker's focus on you. He has bigger guns, protection, bigger bullets and more bullets and a lot less to lose than you.

The chances that you are significantly more trained than the shooter is very unlikely.



When you put it that way, maybe the cops should either run or hide as well?

I mean, chances are, a first-responding cop will only be carrying his sidearm, and while he may be wearing a vest, he's likely VERY a lousy shot.

latimesblogs.latimes.com

How many cops fired how many rounds?

And they hit their "target" - the driver - NOT EVEN ONCE.

Not that it matters. This whole "mass shootings" panic is just propaganda by pumped out by pernicious politicians and amplified the salivating  media.
 
2013-04-06 11:55:13 PM
vudukungfu

I wanted the desk nearest the front door at our office. I told the boss I was trained to rush a shooter in the unlikely event of an "incident" and told him a shooter would be just past my cube if it happened. I got the spot.

/yes. that's is my training. //yes. I would take a bullet(s) for my coworkers.

I'm betting most farkers would also be ok with you "taking a bullet".
 
2013-04-06 11:56:54 PM
Im missing the option :

Blow up your suicide west
 
2013-04-06 11:57:16 PM

Ontos: Even then, he also picked a "gun free zone" as a military base is one of the most unarmed places in the United States.


I was a contractor on a naval air station. The Marines were definitely armed. They used to train there.
 
2013-04-06 11:57:41 PM

Nick Nostril: Brave, brave Sir Robin....


That one only works if you're followed by your favorite minstrels.
 
2013-04-06 11:59:11 PM

mr0x: Silly Jesus: Because sirens in the distance cause him to off himself but he would stand there and return fire if being directly engaged. Riiiiiight.

Not the batman movie shooter though.


Nor Klebold and Harris, who got into a gun fight.

But Silly Jesus likes chickens, so we're stuck with his ignorance.
 
2013-04-07 12:09:43 AM

I_Am_Weasel: I don't like any of those options.  I need more.


How about standing motionless, paralyzed with fear?

Beacuse that's probably what most people would do.
 
2013-04-07 12:10:26 AM

duenor: mr0x: Ontos: The average civilian hobbyist has a hell of a lot more range-time than the average "mass shooter".


Really? A guy who decides to do a mass shooting has less experience with firearms than an average person?

He didn't say average person, he said average civilian hobbyist. To be fair, however, I'm not sure that's even relevant. Most mass shootings tend to take place at close to very close range, with the targets basically staying in one place, cowering, begging for their lives. Then again, if there was someone shooting back there might be a chance for those who are unarmed to get away. I don't know.


Exactly, and this is why people die.  Most people will simply freeze up if confronted by a situation like that, or are in a position where they're being funneled into close quarters, panic and can't get out.  You don't need a lot of training to walk into a room full of people, start shooting and hit something.

Again, look at how most mass shootings play out.., when they're confronted by something that challenges they're preconceived notion of how things will play out, or people start fighting back, they off themselves.

I'm never going to tell someone that doesn't feel comfortable carrying a gun to carry one.  That's an individual choice that everyone needs to make on they're own, and it's not for everyone.  For the average unarmed civilian, the best thing you can do to stay alive is simply have a modicum of situational awareness.  If you're in a public place, think about where the exits are, where are people going to be funneled in an emergency, what are you going to do, what are your personal reactions to stress, why is that guy that just walked in wearing a long jacket and why does he seem nervous, etc.....  Interviews with survivors from mass shooting events have shown these are generally common threads.

Myself, I have the training and aptitude to carry a firearm and I do every day.  Is it a magical panacea that will save everybody in all situations?  No.   After the Aurora shooting (which also took place in a gun free zone), we ran an informal outbriefing at work talking about active shooter scenarios and how that one could have played out differently.  It's a tough call... I carry everyday, shoot competitively where I shoot in the "Master" IPDA class, train extensively and typically burn through about 1,000 rounds per month at the range.  That being said, I don't think I could have made much of a difference if I was there and armed just due to the low lighting, close quarters and mass panic.  However, there are plenty of other situations where being armed does (or could have) make the difference.

My personal choice is that I'll take my chances, and I carry everyday wherever it is legal to do so.
 
2013-04-07 12:15:39 AM
A "mass shooting" is just when an ordinary day in the 'hood or the barrio happens to honkies.
We need more of them.
 
2013-04-07 12:16:25 AM

dfenstrate: skozlaw: I remember hearing something on NPR where they were talking to a guy who confronted a mass shooter in a mall. He didn't stop him, but they said after he disrupted the guy by confronting him the guy changed up his tactic and holed up in a store instead which effectively ended it. They said that now police are recommending that the most important you can do is disrupt the attacker's pattern, which is why instead of waiting for backup at school events and setting a perimeter they now just breach ASAP.

There's been a few times, to my profit, that I've interrupted someone's plan with my own counter action.

Once some tough looking kids were clearly following me (whilst driving), and after I was sure of it, I stomped on the brakes and pulled onto the shoulder of a busy road. They pulled to the side as if following me through a turn- but there was no turn; and they pulled back onto the road and drove off without stopping.
The other time my wife's employer was obviously setting up to fire my pregnant wife after their busy season was done. So I wrote a letter to them (which my wife passed on as her writing) accusing her supervisor of unlawfully discriminating against a pregnant woman, and got us a $4k payoff to shut up and go away for good.
So yeah , good tactic. Mess up your opponents plan.
/CSB


So you got your wife fired?  Nice.
 
2013-04-07 12:18:12 AM

thorthor: I'm betting most farkers would also be ok with you "taking a bullet".


gee. thanks.
I guess.
 
2013-04-07 12:45:05 AM

RedPhoenix122: Krymson Tyde: RedPhoenix122: Krymson Tyde: No praying? According to Facebook this shiat wouldn't happen if we prayed more.

Also armed everyone.

Yeah, that too. Then we'd be living in a good, honest God-fearing utopia.

Add in racism and you have the South.


You, Farker ... outside right now. You need to be taught some manners with a baseball bat ...
 
2013-04-07 12:50:24 AM

vudukungfu: thorthor: I'm betting most farkers would also be ok with you "taking a bullet".

gee. thanks.
I guess.


No no, it's a good thing. Please, feel free to step in front of a bullet to save me any time.
 
2013-04-07 01:08:01 AM

whistleridge: Silly Jesus: You're missing a huge part of this.  The shooters tend to be cowards.  In a mall shooting the shooter ran when an armed citizen engaged.  The shooters generally off themselves when they hear sirens in the distance.  It's not going to be a sustained shootout.  The shooter is going to most likely off himself or run away when met with any resistance.  He's not going to just stand there and engage.  For your analysis to make sense, you have to assume that he's just standing there taking fire.

You mean like these guys? Or these? Or this guy (he shot up a police station...very cowardly)? These two yellow bellies? This guy?

You're making the HUGE assumption that a certain profile will always apply, even though there are literally centuries of evidence proving otherwise. And worse, you're wanting the legislature to mandate that other people stake their life on that assumption.

The truth is, if you're unstable enough to grab a small arsenal and wade into a crowd of civilians with the intent of taking out as many as you can, you're probably on a death ride and you know it. But maybe not. Maybe you think you can get away. Either way, what you're certainly NOT is stable. Both oars are not in the water, if you catch my drift.

Maybe the guy that shoots up your church tomorrow IS a coward, and he offs himself at the first sign of resistance. Or maybe, you pulling a gun makes him think 'fark it...if I'm going to hell anyway, I may as well take as many with me as I can', and he starts emptying into the little kids and old ladies that he previously hadn't been shooting at. You have no way of knowing.

Your statement above only stands in hindsight. Yes, you maybe could have done something at Newtown, because Lanza was kind of a wimpy kid. But if you and 5 or 6 other civilians had applied the same logic at the North Hollywood shootout, you and 5 or 6 other folks would now be dead. Unless you ran away at the first chance you got. Or hid.


Nobody was killed at the North Hollywood shootout, aside from the robbers, because those guys were trying to get away, not to kill people.

As for your list, you failed to list a single mass-killing incident.  It looks like you posted a couple of gang hits, and some shootouts with police after a crime (bank robbery and murder, specifically).  None of these follow the pattern of somebody entering a large mass of defenseless people and killing as many as they can.  These links are mostly shootouts rooted in gang violence or other crimes, attempts to get away, not shooting sprees for their own sake.  And thus they are not really relevant to this discussion.

IIRC, it has been shown that most mass killers are having a power fantasy, some kind of god trip, which gets shattered as soon as they meet resistance.  Even if they don't meet that profile - which I'm sure not all do - the situation changes completely when they go from strolling around thrill-killing at their leisure to suddenly being in combat.  Most mass killers can't handle it, they showed up for a free spree of unopposed killing, which is why the body count when anyone resisted before police arrived is so (comparatively) low.

I don't know why folks in this argument tend to assign superhuman qualities to criminals.  They'll always take your gun and use it against you.  They'll always get a steely glint in their eye and focus-fire on the person who draws their CCW, standing fast and shooting true despite taking fire. They'll have body armor even though that almost never happens.  That body armor is the Immovable Force that will completely absorb all kinetic energy from a bullet, rendering useless any attempts to resist.  Etc, etc.

Anyway: http://www.thevrwc.org/JohnLott.pdf
 
2013-04-07 01:12:06 AM

Gyrfalcon: feel free to step in front of a bullet to save me any time


for yu
can du
 
2013-04-07 01:19:40 AM

ArmagedDan: whistleridge: Silly Jesus: You're missing a huge part of this.  The shooters tend to be cowards.  In a mall shooting the shooter ran when an armed citizen engaged.  The shooters generally off themselves when they hear sirens in the distance.  It's not going to be a sustained shootout.  The shooter is going to most likely off himself or run away when met with any resistance.  He's not going to just stand there and engage.  For your analysis to make sense, you have to assume that he's just standing there taking fire.

You mean like these guys? Or these? Or this guy (he shot up a police station...very cowardly)? These two yellow bellies? This guy?

You're making the HUGE assumption that a certain profile will always apply, even though there are literally centuries of evidence proving otherwise. And worse, you're wanting the legislature to mandate that other people stake their life on that assumption.

The truth is, if you're unstable enough to grab a small arsenal and wade into a crowd of civilians with the intent of taking out as many as you can, you're probably on a death ride and you know it. But maybe not. Maybe you think you can get away. Either way, what you're certainly NOT is stable. Both oars are not in the water, if you catch my drift.

Maybe the guy that shoots up your church tomorrow IS a coward, and he offs himself at the first sign of resistance. Or maybe, you pulling a gun makes him think 'fark it...if I'm going to hell anyway, I may as well take as many with me as I can', and he starts emptying into the little kids and old ladies that he previously hadn't been shooting at. You have no way of knowing.

Your statement above only stands in hindsight. Yes, you maybe could have done something at Newtown, because Lanza was kind of a wimpy kid. But if you and 5 or 6 other civilians had applied the same logic at the North Hollywood shootout, you and 5 or 6 other folks would now be dead. Unless you ran away at the first chance you got. Or hid.

Nobody was killed ...


Well said all the way around.
 
2013-04-07 01:27:36 AM

Ontos: You have no way of knowing


So. Rush him.
 
2013-04-07 01:29:19 AM

vudukungfu: Ontos: You have no way of knowing

So. Rush him.


Enough Oxycontin will stop an elephant.
 
2013-04-07 01:29:21 AM

WordyGrrl: Not long ago, I saw a video about a test to see how well (or if) college students could stop or survive an gunman's attack at a school. All the student participants were taken out to the range, taught how to use the handguns, etc. All felt confident that they could stop the attacker. But when the simulation went live, the students either panicked, froze or fumbled with the weapon and everybody in the scenario got shot.


Well, sure.  But that's college students.  The human badassery that is populating this thread are all capable of instantly and accurately detecting who is a friendly shooter and who is the enemy shooter in a theater full of strangers.  Also they see to think that "friendly fire off" is a toggle switch in real life.
 
2013-04-07 01:35:20 AM

WordyGrrl: Not long ago, I saw a video about a test to see how well (or if) college students could stop or survive an gunman's attack at a school. All the student participants were taken out to the range, taught how to use the handguns, etc. All felt confident that they could stop the attacker. But when the simulation went live, the students either panicked, froze or fumbled with the weapon and everybody in the scenario got shot.


One trip to the range is not "training", that's barely "familiarization", and honestly it's a pretty idiotic way to attempt to draw any sort of informed conclusion.

I would have been shocked if they didn't react that way.
 
2013-04-07 01:37:00 AM

I_Am_Weasel: I don't like any of those options.  I need more.


I seldom hear about mass shooting in my mothers basement.

Ennuipoet: I am no gun nut, but I was taught in the cop school that cover and concealment were the first rules of not being killed during a shootout. So, if I were to find myself armed and in a mass shooting, first I would scream, cry, shiat myself, hide under a dead body and then maybe, if I had a clear shot, I would shoot at the rampaging gun nut with the semi-auto chugging rounds into the pre-school class.


I figure if you can put fifty yards between you and a shooter you're home free.  Also my experience plinking says, almost any cover is better than none.  Also never shoot at an old brake drum.
 
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