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		40 years ago today MLB implemented the gimmick known as the Designated Hitter (onlyagame.wbur.org)		93
		More: Sad, Major League Baseball, Tim Kurkjian, designated hitter, pinch hit, ron, Red Sox, American League, Orlando Cepeda

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mikemoto		2013-04-06 01:59:18 PM

I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

Hoban Washburne		2013-04-06 02:52:31 PM

mikemoto: I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

In a really important game, I think old school NL rules are much more fun to watch. Lots of bait and switch tactics and drama. It's more interesting. The only logical argument for the DH is that "pitchers aren't good at hitting and I like hitting."

olddeegee		2013-04-06 03:56:48 PM

I read that as "Designated Hitler" Would've livened up the game a bit. Am I right?

antidisestablishmentarianism		2013-04-06 04:26:52 PM

Hoban Washburne: In a really important game, I think old school NL rules are much more fun to watch. Lots of bait and switch tactics and drama. It's more interesting. The only logical argument for the DH is that "pitchers aren't good at hitting and I like hitting."

Completely agree 100%. Remember, Babe Ruth was a pitcher.

ZAZ		2013-04-06 04:30:22 PM

I read that as "Designated Hitler" Would've livened up the game a bit. Am I right?

That's why the "famous Jewish sports legends" pamphlet is so thin.

clancifer		2013-04-06 04:32:19 PM

#dealwithit

ArkAngel		2013-04-06 04:34:10 PM

olddeegee: I read that as "Designated Hitler" Would've livened up the game a bit. Am I right?

Jawohl, mein firstbaseman

BunkoSquad		2013-04-06 04:35:32 PM

I'm against the DH, but to be fair I'm also against night games, integration, and having teams west of St Looey. Also why can't pitchers throw 18 inning doubleheaders anymore?

Lionel Mandrake		2013-04-06 04:36:43 PM

mikemoto: I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

It does add strategy to the game. Maybe you don't like it, but it does. And sorry about the smudgy scorecards. That must be hell.

And what the is "gimmicky" about players having to play offense and defense? Gimmicky is paying big bucks to old guys who are sitting 98% of the time.

It's not really all that big of a deal to me, but no DH is better, IMO.

Lionel Mandrake		2013-04-06 04:39:44 PM

BunkoSquad: I'm against the DH, but to be fair I'm also against night games, integration, and having teams west of St Looey. Also why can't pitchers throw 18 inning doubleheaders anymore?

And gloves? The hands God gave you aren't good enough? And what are these "steroids?" In my day "performance enhancing drugs" meant a whisky with a beer chaser to wash down my pre-game frankfurters!

Gulper Eel		2013-04-06 05:08:09 PM

olddeegee: I read that as "Designated Hitler" Would've livened up the game a bit. Am I right?

Vin Scully: "And heeere's Koufax with the pitch...high, inside, right in Der Fuehrer's ear!"

The Bestest		2013-04-06 05:51:14 PM

*staying clear of this thread*

cameroncrazy1984		2013-04-06 05:53:32 PM

MLB didn't implement it. Don't lump the real baseball league in with the AL.

Paka Ono		2013-04-06 05:53:43 PM

Fark the DH!

Fatties need to stay in shape to play in the field, and pitchers should bat. Also can someone link to the study that showed there are more hit batters in the AL vs. NL due to the stupid DH rule. Feeling lazy like a DH.

[go be fat somewhere else.jpg]

JosephFinn		2013-04-06 05:53:58 PM

You mean one of the greatest rules improvements in sports history?

BunkoSquad: I'm against the DH, but to be fair I'm also against night games, integration, and having teams west of St Looey. Also why can't pitchers throw 18 inning doubleheaders anymore?

I'm ashamed at how hard I laughed at this.

neuroflare		2013-04-06 05:54:08 PM

The Bestest: *staying clear of this thread*

YOU SOUND LIKE A DH FAN! GET HIM!

Ring of Fire		2013-04-06 05:54:48 PM

1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

JosephFinn		2013-04-06 05:55:56 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Don't lump the real baseball league in with the AL NL.

Oh look, Mark Buehrle struck out again.

Bill Frist		2013-04-06 05:57:23 PM

Honestly, if it wasn't for the history I'd say having a pitcher who (90% of the time) couldn't hit a beach ball whiffing at the bottom of every line-up is more of a gimmick.

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 05:57:42 PM

Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and against the rules of baseball.

the dh is a witch! burn them!

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 05:58:32 PM

Bill Frist: Honestly, if it wasn't for the history I'd say having a pitcher who (90% of the time) couldn't hit a beach ball whiffing at the bottom of every line-up is more of a gimmick.

but it does give you a chance to throw at their head if they are being assholes and throwing at yours.

JosephFinn		2013-04-06 05:59:30 PM

Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

6.10 Any League may elect to use Rule 6.10(b), which shall be called the Designated
Hitter Rule.

Right there in the rules of MLB as well.

fugeeface		2013-04-06 06:00:05 PM

olddeegee: I read that as "Designated Hitler" Would've livened up the game a bit. Am I right?

Same here. It's essentially the same thing.
/NL FTW

great_tigers		2013-04-06 06:02:12 PM

Stop liking what I don't like!

When I watch sports, I want to see the best players do what they do. I don't go to baseball games to see outfielders pitch, why would I want to watch pitchers hit?

Ring of Fire		2013-04-06 06:04:05 PM

JosephFinn: Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

6.10 Any League may elect to use Rule 6.10(b), which shall be called the Designated
Hitter Rule.

Right there in the rules of MLB as well.

I know it's in the rules I don't really have a huge problem with it, probably would if they brought it to the NL. But I think they should at least change the first sentence of the rule book. You know something like ... Teams of nine or ten players...

Mid_mo_mad_man		2013-04-06 06:06:25 PM

I personally like the DH rule. I rather see offense then watch a bunt attempt by the pitcher.

/ I like Billy Butler DHing for KC myself
// I cringe thou when he's playing first base
/// Loved that he finally recognized as the top DH

NaziKamikaze		2013-04-06 06:06:35 PM

I'm fine with the DH, although my favorite team is in the AL.

To me, the pitcher seems like a sure out. Yeah, you can sub, but then you just put another pitcher out there again. Certainly does make it exciting when the pitcher actually does something.

Furthermore, the pitching position has become so specialized that it's an entirely different position than the other 8. Having them bat is a risk at worse, or a waste (because their specialization is pitching, not offense) at best. It's better that they don't.

But I like the balance that we have now. It can seem unfair to decide things on the All-Star game, but it is an option and makes things interesting.

Gulper Eel		2013-04-06 06:07:11 PM

A Fark Handle: the dh is a witch! burn them!

Ew, no. Way too fatty, most of them. There'd be grease fires all over the place. Maybe if you cooked 'em low and slow.

desertgeek		2013-04-06 06:08:35 PM

The only people I know who like the DH are the same nerds to preach the "greatness" of advanced stats like WAR when they can't even farking explain how WAR is calculated. They just can't wrap their heads around a simple concept like a sac bunt to move a runner into scoring position.

/Which, BTW, directly led to the end of a 16 inning game the other night (Cardinals @ Dbacks)
//leadoff man walks, pitcher comes up due to no more bench players available, successful sac bunt, next guy gets walk off single to win it

LesserEvil		2013-04-06 06:10:27 PM

Ring of Fire: JosephFinn: Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

6.10 Any League may elect to use Rule 6.10(b), which shall be called the Designated
Hitter Rule.

Right there in the rules of MLB as well.

I know it's in the rules I don't really have a huge problem with it, probably would if they brought it to the NL. But I think they should at least change the first sentence of the rule book. You know something like ... Teams of nine or ten players...

There are only 9 players for a team on the field at any given time when the ball is in play. It's not like the designated hitter is standing around in the infield, providing extra support on defense. Likewise, the pitcher isn't in the batting order, so again, on the offensive size, only 9 players.

jetzzfan		2013-04-06 06:13:17 PM

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 06:13:37 PM

no final four thread?

sacoo		2013-04-06 06:15:48 PM

I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

Ring of Fire		2013-04-06 06:15:53 PM

LesserEvil: Ring of Fire: JosephFinn: Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

6.10 Any League may elect to use Rule 6.10(b), which shall be called the Designated
Hitter Rule.

Right there in the rules of MLB as well.

I know it's in the rules I don't really have a huge problem with it, probably would if they brought it to the NL. But I think they should at least change the first sentence of the rule book. You know something like ... Teams of nine or ten players...

There are only 9 players for a team on the field at any given time when the ball is in play. It's not like the designated hitter is standing around in the infield, providing extra support on defense. Likewise, the pitcher isn't in the batting order, so again, on the offensive size, only 9 players.

Yeah buy there are ten players participating in the game for each team. You have 10 people starting a game in the Al.

chimp_ninja		2013-04-06 06:16:20 PM

Paka Ono: Also can someone link to the study that showed there are more hit batters in the AL vs. NL due to the stupid DH rule. Feeling lazy like a DH.

2012 AL: 86,116 PA, with 725 HBP. (1 per 119 PA)
2012 NL: 98,063 PA, with 769 HBP. (1 per 128 PA)

Very slightly more in the AL, as usual.

The question is, is it because:
A) Pitchers feel more comfy hitting guys in the AL because they won't have to bat?
B) In the NL, you don't risk hitting the opposing pitcher, because you're potentially putting a guy with a ~.160 OBP on for free?

For that, you look at:
1) In 2012, NL pitchers were hit 12 times in 5,566 PA (1 per 464 PA), roughly 1/4 the rate of other hitters.
2) In 2012, NL non-pitchers were hit 757 times in 92,497 PA (1 per 122 PA), very close to the rate that AL hitter are hit by pitch.

That points strongly to option B), and not the intimidation factor. No one wants to brush back Mark Buerhle, who is probably standing in the back of the batter's box anyway.

That_Dude		2013-04-06 06:19:14 PM

Paka Ono: Fark the DH!

Fatties need to stay in shape to play in the field, and pitchers should bat. Also can someone link to the study that showed there are more hit batters in the AL vs. NL due to the stupid DH rule. Feeling lazy like a DH.

[go be fat somewhere else.jpg]

meh, they'd just move them to first base.

Generation_D		2013-04-06 06:19:39 PM

mikemoto: I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

1) Its easy to do so

2) You never saw Whitey Herzog manage. The Right handed relief pitcher flip flopping with the right fielder while you run your LOOGY in to get them to drain their bench of right handers was a thing of strategic beauty.

The DH, to its credit, does allow guys that can't field to hang around forever and pound out the hits, without it we'd never have seen Hal McRae, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas or Harold Baines.

Coach_J		2013-04-06 06:19:46 PM

Uh...final four thread?

chimp_ninja		2013-04-06 06:21:49 PM

desertgeek: The only people I know who like the DH are the same nerds to preach the "greatness" of advanced stats like WAR when they can't even farking explain how WAR is calculated. They just can't wrap their heads around a simple concept like a sac bunt to move a runner into scoring position.

That's odd. Most baseball geeks hate the DH, because it removes a lot of strategy and variety from the game. Read a site like BP or Hardball Times and it's very rare that anyone says anything nice about the DH.

Most of the time, the sac bunt is a giant waste. You point to one of the few situations it's useful: When 1 run wins you the game, and 2 runs are worthless. Sacrificing with a runner on first and zero outs very slightly increases the chance of scoring one run, and murders your chance of scoring 2+ runs. The overall impact is negative early in the game. Bottom of the 16th, terrible hitter at the plate? Ideal time for a sacrifice.

It's not really an opinion so much as a historical trend. We play about 5,000 MLB games every year. Lots of opportunities to see what happens in an inning after a successful sacrifice bunt. You don't need an opinion when you have thousands of examples.

mikemoto		2013-04-06 06:22:53 PM

Generation_D: mikemoto: I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

1) Its easy to do so

2) You never saw Whitey Herzog manage. The Right handed relief pitcher flip flopping with the right fielder while you run your LOOGY in to get them to drain their bench of right handers was a thing of strategic beauty.

The DH, to its credit, does allow guys that can't field to hang around forever and pound out the hits, without it we'd never have seen Hal McRae, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas or Harold Baines.

You mean the same Whitey Herzog who managed to lose 3 All Star games for the National League at the time when the American League couldn't win the All Star game to save its life. Very overrated manager.

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 06:23:07 PM

Coach_J: Uh...final four thread?

yes please...

elguerodiablo		2013-04-06 06:23:52 PM

Coach_J: Uh...final four thread?

Lets threadjack the ufc one it looks like theyre mostly done

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 06:25:31 PM

elguerodiablo: Coach_J: Uh...final four thread?

Lets threadjack the ufc one it looks like theyre mostly done

hockey rules. this ones on top. it gets jacked. why does fark hat college sports?

chimp_ninja		2013-04-06 06:25:38 PM

Generation_D: The DH, to its credit, does allow guys that can't field to hang around forever and pound out the hits, without it we'd never have seen Hal McRae, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas or Harold Baines.

The question is: Is this desirable? I mean, there are a bunch of all-glove middle infielders and CFs stuck at AA or AAA because their bat won't play in the majors. Should we create a "designated fielder" job so that Derek Jeter can bat but not have to do the part of the game he's terrible at?

I think it's sort of interesting that the Phillies have to plan around being stuck with Ryan Howard as a 1B. (Watch their infield shifts, late-game substitutions, etc.)

LesserEvil		2013-04-06 06:26:46 PM

Ring of Fire: LesserEvil: Ring of Fire: JosephFinn: Ring of Fire: 1.01 Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

That is the first rule in the official baseball rule book. Having a tenth player to hit for the pitcher is not in compliance with this. The DH is an abomination and aginst the rules of baseball.

6.10 Any League may elect to use Rule 6.10(b), which shall be called the Designated
Hitter Rule.

Right there in the rules of MLB as well.

I know it's in the rules I don't really have a huge problem with it, probably would if they brought it to the NL. But I think they should at least change the first sentence of the rule book. You know something like ... Teams of nine or ten players...

There are only 9 players for a team on the field at any given time when the ball is in play. It's not like the designated hitter is standing around in the infield, providing extra support on defense. Likewise, the pitcher isn't in the batting order, so again, on the offensive size, only 9 players.

Yeah buy there are ten players participating in the game for each team. You have 10 people starting a game in the Al.

I only count 9 starting on both sides. The switch takes place after the inning has started.The only real change is that unlike Pinch Runners and Hitters, the substituted players come back in the game. You might as well argue that any substitution violates the "9 players" rule.

Mid_mo_mad_man		2013-04-06 06:27:00 PM

mikemoto: Generation_D: mikemoto: I'm one of the few people who likes the designated hitter. Have you ever tried to keep a score on a National League game? It's near impossible with all those double and sometimes triple switches. And no, that does NOT add strategy to the game. Frankly, it's more gimmicky than having the DH.

1) Its easy to do so

2) You never saw Whitey Herzog manage. The Right handed relief pitcher flip flopping with the right fielder while you run your LOOGY in to get them to drain their bench of right handers was a thing of strategic beauty.

The DH, to its credit, does allow guys that can't field to hang around forever and pound out the hits, without it we'd never have seen Hal McRae, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas or Harold Baines.

You mean the same Whitey Herzog who managed to lose 3 All Star games for the National League at the time when the American League couldn't win the All Star game to save its life. Very overrated manager.

Or the same Herzog who couldn't beat the Yankees in post season?

Coach_J		2013-04-06 06:28:00 PM

Foul on Wichita State...guarding the Louisville player.

Seriously...Russ Smith is RAPING people and isn't getting called for any of it.

Adolf Oliver Nipples		2013-04-06 06:29:46 PM

great_tigers: Stop liking what I don't like!

When I watch sports, I want to see the best players do what they do. I don't go to baseball games to see outfielders pitch, why would I want to watch pitchers hit?

No you don't. Nobody does. Otherwise Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Sammy Sosa would all be in the Hall of Fame.

Everybody wants to see the "best", but only on their terms. I'm no different. I think that if a player can't be a complete player they have no business playing. Teams should be forced to decide whether or not they field a good hitter with a glove made out of steel, a weak hitter who fields like a Hoover, or a guy who can do both. They shouldn't be able to hide the guy in the lineup with a rule that has one simple strategy: get the biggest, slowest guy you can find and have him swing for the fences.

Generation_D		2013-04-06 06:31:00 PM

A Fark Handle		2013-04-06 06:31:04 PM

Coach_J: Foul on Wichita State...guarding the Louisville player.

Seriously...Russ Smith is RAPING people and isn't getting called for any of it.

that's the louisville way, wear ugly shiat, get calls, be shiatty at sex...

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