BullBearMS: Generation_D: Its one thing to think the cops are cartooney at times, they certainly are.

Its quite another to start babbling about how you pay your taxes in silver paper and you refuse to form joinder and you are a human being and a man, therefore laws don't apply to you.

I'm sure some of them are crazy, but weren't we just recently say that we needed to do more to help people with mental illness?

If their whole delusion is that they think the Government is out to get them, then officially declaring them terrorists and sending in swat teams goes firmly under the category of...

[dl.dropbox.com image 480x360]

Except these people are in fact terrorists, and dangerous.

Generation_D: zealots who refuse to recognize government authority in virtually any form.

Except when its convenient to do so.

'zactly.

FTA: Once he threatened to sue a deputy who pulled him over.

How's that work, seeing as how you don't recognize government authority, sovereign?

You think Bill and Hillary play by the same rules you do?
The Bush Dynasty? (die-nasty)

Really?

Know what makes a religion a religion? When it gets enough muscle to be reckoned with. Sovereign Citizens lack only this one feature, or you don't understand the Clintons. Or, inner city gangs that go nationwide.

Shoot on sight?

Krymson Tyde: I don't mind people being 'sovereign citizens' but the deal is you don't get to use any government services, public utilities, roads, etc.

I think we should present everyone of these wack-a-loons with a bill for using federal roads and infrastructure, which was paid for and obviously designed solely for the use of U.S. citizens.

I'm thinking about $10,000 per month would be an amicable fee for clean air, clean water, non-contaminated food, access to roads and bridges, etc etc and so forth.

SuperSeriousMan: Krymson Tyde: I don't mind people being 'sovereign citizens' but the deal is you don't get to use any government services, public utilities, roads, etc.

I think we should present everyone of these wack-a-loons with a bill for using federal roads and infrastructure, which was paid for and obviously designed solely for the use of U.S. citizens.

I'm thinking about $10,000 per month would be an amicable fee for clean air, clean water, non-contaminated food, access to roads and bridges, etc etc and so forth.

But you're not a control freak, right?

I always love this counter response that basically says that the government owns all of us because we used or once used some service that was provided or regulated by the government.

Non contaminated food exists on numerous farms and slaughterhouses without a single government official doing anything.  It's surprisingly easy for families that eat what they raise/grow to just follow basic sanitary practices even without the watchful eye of the government.

They paid for most of that stuff whether they wanted too or not.  If they put fuel in their vehicles and purchased tires, they've paid for access to the roads and bridges for example.

Regicide?

Well great, now I'm going to have to go fire up Halo 4 again. It hasn't even been 12 hours since I played last...

Mr. Coffee Nerves: "When all else fails deploy the self-propelled Cockpunch 5000 -- when fully fueled it's capable of delivering 180 cockpunches per minute for up to two hours at impacts customizable all the way up to 'Earnie Shavers on PCP,' and, in a major upgrade over the Cockpunch 4000, the 5000 has a built-in webcam that provides streaming video of the cockpunches set to 'Yackety Sax."

That is beautiful.

The sovereigns are clearly deluded nutjobs but terrorists?  A terrorist is someone who uses attacks on civilians to further a political agenda.  While these folks have a political agenda they do not generally espouse or engage in attacks on the civilian population.

The word "terrorist" has lost all meaning in the last few years.  News agencies should really refrain from using it.  It is now commonly applied to any sort of criminal, rather than according to its actual meaning.

SuperSeriousMan: Krymson Tyde: I don't mind people being 'sovereign citizens' but the deal is you don't get to use any government services, public utilities, roads, etc.

I think we should present everyone of these wack-a-loons with a bill for using federal roads and infrastructure, which was paid for and obviously designed solely for the use of U.S. citizens.

I'm thinking about $10,000 per month would be an amicable fee for clean air, clean water, non-contaminated food, access to roads and bridges, etc etc and so forth.

Whats fun is if you required payment in gold since they wouldn't recognize paper money

You are infringing on my freedom of movement.

hardinparamedic: / knows the son of the assistant chief who was shot in the second shoot out.
// He flew his own dad to the trauma center.

That has to hurt, to see your own father shot and dying like that.

The agency calls sovereigns - who number between 100,000 and 300,000 - a "domestic terrorist movement."

I highly doubt there are that many truly committed whackjobs out there.  Plenty of whackjobs, sure.  But whackjobs willing to live the lifestyle instead of just raging against the machine in online chat rooms?  Probably only a small percentage.

These nutcases existed 80 years ago too- it's just that we were much more rural and could afford to let crazy old Charlie stay up in his cabin and stew.  Nowadays, it seems like we have a collective need to poke 'em with a stick to see how angry they get.

"He had renounced his U.S. citizenship."

a) that doesn't excuse you from any laws or taxes

B) deport the farking moran

Ima4nic8or: The sovereigns are clearly deluded nutjobs but terrorists? A terrorist is someone who uses attacks on civilians to further a political agenda. While these folks have a political agenda they do not generally espouse or engage in attacks on the civilian population.

No, terrorists are people who fly planes into large buildings, killing more than 3,000 people. See, I can redefine words too. That doesn't mean it's correct. These guys kill cops who stop them for minor traffic violations. To advance a political agenda. Cops are generally not considered military actors. They're authorized to kill when necessary, but that's not even 1% of their day-to-day job. The Pentagon - now that was unquestionably a military target. Does that mean the attack on it in 2001 was not a terrorist attack?

tillerman35: The agency calls sovereigns - who number between 100,000 and 300,000 - a "domestic terrorist movement."

I highly doubt there are that many truly committed whackjobs out there.  Plenty of whackjobs, sure.  But whackjobs willing to live the lifestyle instead of just raging against the machine in online chat rooms?  Probably only a small percentage.

These nutcases existed 80 years ago too- it's just that we were much more rural and could afford to let crazy old Charlie stay up in his cabin and stew.  Nowadays, it seems like we have a collective need to poke 'em with a stick to see how angry they get.

That's the problem.  If someone wants to live 'away' from society, or limit the interactions and influence of society, they have to be harassed, abused, and/or forcefully pulled back in.

The attitude of some seems to be "let's mess with them until they push back, then we can justify why we were pushing them."

People always talk about how if someone doesn't like some aspect of society, they should "go live off the grid" or some other nonsense, THEN we have this issue where it's basically proven that there's no such thing as allowing people to live even slightly off the grid.

The biggest issue a lot of people seem to have with these people is that they don't want to participate 100% in everything that society does.  Without getting into whether all of those things are just or not, doesn't it seem a bit sinister and proving of their point for the government to get so upset when some try to distance themselves?

bighairyguy: I'd like to propose the following procedure for law enforcement:

Officer: Your license and registration please.
Sovereign Citizen: I'm a sovereign citizen and you have no authority over me!
Officer: TAZZZZZZZE!
Sovereign Citizen: EEEEEEAAAAAYYYYYAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
Officer: Your license and registration please.
Repeat as necessary.

In which case I hope we see a lot more repeats of that that father and son team.

I find it pretty farking scary that the government is willing to classify as much as 0.1% of the population as domestic terrorists based on a stance that ultimately doesn't amount to anything worse than wanting to be left alone.

Granted there are a handful of serious whackjobs who are a serious danger to those around them, but the vast majority aren't doing anything that should remotely qualify as terroristic or threatening enough to paint a movement as large as they claim with such a brush.

So they estimate there are 100,000 to 300,000 of these extremists who are happy to drive on roads and enjoy other infrastructure and services paid for by the rest of us (who understand that a social contract and taxes are important when you are a social creature living in a society)?

Guessing like at least half of them have Fark accounts.

JesseL: I find it pretty farking scary that the government is willing to classify as much as 0.1% of the population as domestic terrorists based on a stance that ultimately doesn't amount to anything worse than wanting to be left alone.

Granted there are a handful of serious whackjobs who are a serious danger to those around them, but the vast majority aren't doing anything that should remotely qualify as terroristic or threatening enough to paint a movement as large as they claim with such a brush.

THAT is why I sympathize with them despite disagreeing with a lot what they do.

How the government responds to a bunch of C rate rabble-rousers should tell us how the government would deal with any truly effective movement for change, especially one that would push for more individual autonomy.  It's also highly effective in weeding out the high grade authoritarians among us.